Oh man, this is most boat owner's nightmare right here, you go digging into an issue and the hole just gets deeper and deeper. Those lifters took a beating for sure. What are your thoughts after reading other comments, are you going to just rebuild the top end or pull it and rebuild the whole thing? We're along with you for the ride, no matter your decision. Good luck brother!
@@capicolaspicy Three lifters were incredibly worn and concave on their lower surface. I was able to barely look at the cam without removing it and the lobes are worn in a matching pattern. If I replaced just the lifters, they would quickly be worn back down because of the rounded lobes.
@@CullenCraft I had tried to delete this and two other comments because I jumped the gun and made those comments before watching further into the video to see those destroyed lifters and hear about the cam lobes. As you were, never mind LOL. I love your spunk and determination and wish you total success on this!
@@CullenCraft Save yourself a ton of money and future headaches with repairs and inconvenience. That engine can be saved but if you do a partial repair for half the money and then blow the engine completely you are then much farther behind the ball. Complete rebuild & reinstall will mean you know exactly where you stand. The one comment I did see below mentioned the issue with water in the exhaust port is part of what most worries me about boat (Marinized) engines. Solid engines are not something to take a chance on. Your life may depend on them at some point.
A rollerized block works a lot better in water . Flat tappets are for street use .WATER = ROLLER CAUSE THERES LESS FRICTION = EASIER TO SPIN . IT'S JUST COMON SCENSE AND YOU DO NOT NEED DEEP POCKETS , YOU JUST HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO SHOP . SPEEDMASTER.COM & SUMMIT .That's where you can start .
Timing: Before you remove the cam, make sure the dot on the cam gear is to the top as well as the dot on the crank gear. They both should line up perfectly. Now the engine is in "Top Dead Center" or TDC. Piston number one is all the way up. Now you can remove the cam bolts and remove it. Assembly is reverse of removal. When assembling the cam, put Vaseline or assembly lube on all the lobes and the bearings. Vaseline melts as the engine warms up and dissolves and acts as an additional protection to the gears. The lifters are installed after the cam is in place. I fill them with oil and put Vaseline on the bottoms to avoid dry start. I also test them that they are functional. They should act like the springs, going in and out. They must have a give. If not the lifter is bad. There are bad lifters and the cam will eat into them like the old ones or bend the rod. Lifters also have to rotate in their spot. Make sure they can turn in their place otherwise clean the groove. The cam should be able to turn them around. After you assemble, make sure you put at least three liters of Zinc oil with the oil. These old engines require Zinc oil. My assumption for what happened is lack of Zinc oil along with bad lifters. The rocker is just a bad casting that has failed under pressure. Good luck.
First use diesel oil, 10w40 minimum. Good old dino Rotella has zinc & wear inhibitors your engine needs. Use good assembly lube & check or replace cam bearings. You'll need to soak new lifters in oil (submerged) 12-24 hours before installing. Insert a slender rod or stick in #1 plug hole to determine TDC by rocking crank bolt back & forth to check cam & crank timing mark. The only thing at all difficult is installing the distributor after disturbing the engine. You may want to try dropping iit back in place before you move the crank. Look @ manual for dist. cap position of #1 plug wire. FYI its a good idea is to pull coil wire & crank engine to allow oil pressure to build. Then start & run @ high idle 1500-2000 for 20-30 minutes. Stop immediately if you hear metallic noise. I would definitely change out oil before starting. And again after 10 or 20 hours. Good luck. FYI 40+ years turning wrenches.
the cam and crank dot should align they shouldn't both be at the top cam gear dot will be at the bottom of the sprocket and crank dot will be at the top of the sprocket when at TDC
I was in your shoes many years ago, not a boat motor but a 390 truck engine. I ended up replacing heads cam and intake. I had no problem with cam timing but a month after getting the motor running, I broke rings and piston skirts on two pistons. Fresh tight top end met tired lower end. I’m guessing that is a Chevrolet big block? Bite the bullet and rebuild the entire engine.
Hey Cullen your living your dream! That doesn’t mean that everything’s going to be a rose garden! Love your attitude. I’m 56 and wish I had your desire when I was your age. I own a 1996 Sea Ray on the gulf Coast of Alabama and enjoy everything about her! The good and the not so good. I’ve done most of the cosmetic restoration myself, but have used the mercruiser master mechanic from the service dept. on the bigger jobs(like a new transom assembly which meant a complete engine removal) as depressing and costly as that was, she’s running great now. Ask around the marina for advice or for someone to just spot check what your doing. One thing I love about boat ownership is that there are lots of friendly boaters that love to give a hand and offer wise advise. Good luck on her. I love the older boats. They have so much more character than the new models. Plus, it’s always nice to hear the compliments from others on how nice she looks. Best of luck!
Cullen Craft we were very lucky/fortunate. We are dry stacked at Barber Marina and thankfully had no damage. The same can’t be said to the wet slips. They sustained catastrophic damage. We tried to get to the marina, but because of the damage to the slips and the ship store it’s off limits till maybe next week. If you look on UA-cam for boats damaged at Barber Marina, you’ll see a clip of the damage. The slips are concrete floating docks and we’re made to withstand at least 10’ of storm surge and they’re destroyed. Hopefully we’ll be back boating in 2-3 months, but until then it’s not advisable to be in the water due to all the debris. As far as I’m concerned that’s a small sacrifice compared to all the boats and property lost.
after seeing the valve was free to open and the push rod was open for oil you should have looked 'upstream' to the lifter. you are very willing to jump in and find/fix problems - this is a good channel to watch videos on 'keep 'um coming
Cullen if you are not a mechanic yet, you'll certainly be one over this year!!! I know it's disheartening having to do repairs but please celebrate that you're getting closer to having excellent engines. This will make you feel more confident when you take her out!! I really admire your adventurous spirit to do as much work as you can on your own. UA-cam is a wonderful teacher for all us shade tree mechanics!!!
Easy job, roller chain, good gasket set, shopvac with 3/8 hose attachment for oil sump cleanout, case of gumout for interior washdown. Easy job. Loose your boatowner V-Card on a bigblock in-bilge mini rebuild.
After thinking about the rocker arm damage, I would definitely get a cheap bore scope & inspect the piston on that cylinder. If you have a new moon smile or no damage on face piston will be usable. If U have a hole, crack or edge damage, piston will need to be replaced. Also, I would question whether you have a bent valve in this case. Valve could be bent but not stuck causing failure to seal & low compression or dead cylinder. Easiest way to check is w/ screw in adapter & air pressure. Screw the adapter in sparkplug hole apply 50+ psi to the cylinder & listen for air leak at port. No hissing sound valve is sealing = good. Hiss at port, well you are pulling the head for valve work. Better to find out now than later. FYI I maybe be able to rent a compression tester @ auto parts store & adapt it to air hose. If piston is not damaged & engine had good oil pressure I think bottom end should be Ok as it was a good used running engine. FYI I've been turning wrenches since the 70's. Seen wiped camshaft , bent pushrod, damaged lifters, broken rockers, missing rocker (OHC engine) but never seen a pushrod shoved thru the rocker arm. Sorry if this is long or someone else has made these suggestions. Wanted you to have info but didn't read thru 100+ posts.
Second thought, if you test cylinder with air pressure and you don't hear a leak, you won't need to view cylinder with scope. If you have audible leak, then listen at lifter valley for hiss. Then damp finger in front of intake & exhaust ports will find the location of the leak. Hiss at valley = piston. At ports valve or valve seat. Pulling heads in boat is very doable. I have done piston swap in boat but you need room to drop oil pan & pump. When you get to reassembly you'll need the valve lifter pre-load procedure.
I got rocker arm chatter in my SBC 350. Adjusting the flat tappet hydraulics did NOT help. Got noisier, then power seemed to go away. She started shaking and was real doggy. Crept her into the drive way and she pooped out . Pretty sure when I drain the oil, and then pull the lifters out the story will be told. I'm a shade tree mechanic since the early 1970's. No, I did not use a zinc additive after the engine rebuild a year ago. The few dollars not spent has most likely caught up to me with flattened lobes.
@@billycarpenter4740 So if it's shaky misfiring after valve adjustment it's too tight & holding valves open. Loose & noisey much better than tight. Have you just replaced lifters or you suspect failed lifter? Noise is either collapsed valve lifter, wiped cam lobes, bent push rod or damaged rocker arms/pulled studs. Or Ur could be multiple faults. Take your time checking things. Killing house flies with a shotgun or a hammer makes alot of extra work. 😎
@@billycarpenter4740 easy valve lash adjustment technique. You spin the push rod w/ your fingers. You can feel as the lash gets to zero lash or too lose or too tight. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th times after rotating crank you're only checking for loose valves. Link: ua-cam.com/video/XR4W-MWjEyI/v-deo.html
@@knockywigglesworth1909 The heads need to come off and the pistons need to come out. There are metal shavings everywhere in this motor now with 3 lifters and the cam ate up. No real point in scoping the cylinders and doing compression tests at this point. Gotta strip it to the bare block and get if totally flushed out. New bearings everywhere and might as well put new rings on while it's this far apart. He is building a motor at this point and no two ways around it. Sadly for him.
Cam replacement's not a big deal just a lot of labor and a tight hole. You'll need the cam and lifter kit. New timing chain and gear set. If it was me I'd go ahead and pull the heads and have them reworked, regrind the valves, new valve seals and check for cracks. Right across the river in Riverside Lime Street. Machine shop, welding fabrication. They do good work and a very reasonable.
Hey Cullen, thanks for taking the time and effort to share your experiences, both good and bad. It's not always about the destination, but the journey. You've invested your whole heart bringing this dream to life and everyone can see and appreciate that. It's great you are taking the advice from people commenting. I worked for a mechanic in high school years ago and also amazed at the engineering and technology that brings these hunks of iron to life! The only thing I want to offer that I haven't seen suggested is to invest in a quality torque wrench. The parts you're working with are exposed to a lot of stress and vibration...
Doing what was mentioned in prior comment help ensure a long trouble free life of the motor especially if it has good compression the cylinder that had the busted rocker I would defiantly check the compression on that cylinder to see if it’s in spec. There’s nothing worse than putting a bunch of time and money into a motor then to later have something fail or cause an issue that could have been dealt with when being repaired for another issue. Thanks and good luck again
You took a very round about way to diagnose a known design flaw of the GM engines, but given your lack of experience I admire your logical and comprehensive approach, not to mention your willingness to venture into unknown territory.
Replace ALL the lifters along with the camshaft. There is an assembly lube that should be used when reinstalling the camshaft and lifters. It has a very thick constancy so it clings to the newly installed moving parts during the initial start. Insure you have oil pressure during restart too. Be very careful to not "nick" the camshaft bearings as you slooooly remove the camshaft. Do a You Tube search on how to set the initial timing on the engine. A compression test on ALL cylinders should be done after you reassemble the engine. When were the exhaust cooling water manifolds last replaced? If equipped, what are the run hours on each engine? You might want to install permanent LED lighting strips around the perimeter of the engine opening hatches so you can see what you are doing. They don't cost much. Good luck!
Yo bud, just my 2 cents, but do the entire engine. You have metal shavings in the engine, cam is almost 100% toast, it would be a shame to try and replace cam, lifters pushrods and rocker arms and then have cam, rod and main bearings go on you. I just did rebuild for my buddy on his searay 37' twin 454 one engine had same issue.
You are correct, but the problem is lifter failure, which wipes the cam. This is typical of GM engines since the 60's. The cam/lifter material settles in the oil pan and then plugs the oil pump pick up. That is when the engine fails.
just had a conv with an old GM mechanic---that push rod thru the rocker could have been caused by over-revving--really is common with marine engines--operator problems??------mikey
Hi Cullen. I’ve been watching you for a few evenings. Your energy is super. I have worked on one or two boats motors. A couple things to think about. The lift muffler on your generator is steel. That includes the standpipe that provides water to exit safely and not get into the generator engine. Please drain the muffler and don’t use the generator until you can swing installing a fiberglass muffler. Oil your port engine up, secure it until you can swing the money to change the risers. It looks like the manifolds are fresh water cooled. I should have looked closer before commenting on them being fresh water cooled. If they are seawater cooled change them as well. Get yourself some plugs and plug the exhaust hoses so the boat does not flood while they are apart. I’m certain I have the technical manuals for your motors and generator in case you need them. Good job on all your doing. God bless ya...
Thank you! Especially the genset advice is great. I've given very little thought to it, but i did run it for 5 minutes a few weeks ago... Until it peetered out lol. Definitely needs some solid work before I can depend on it. The muffler, especially, needs to go.
OH! And keep this on the down low... But i got a grand new exhaust manifold to replace the one with rust marks in it. Better safe than sorry! Be looking for that in my next video.
Cullen Craft truth is, I have worked on boats all my life. Just don’t wanna say so in public. I will be happy to guide ya through the steps your taking. Another day at the office for me. If you need to discuss I can give u my contact. I’m not far from you
Getting the timing right will be one of the easier parts of replacing the camshaft. Should just have a couple of dots to line up on the timing gears and if I remember correctly they can only go on one way. The distributor might also give you a little trouble lining it back up after you put the new can in. The slot in the bottom turns the oil pump. Camshaft bearing removal/installation will be the “difficult” part. Might need a special tool to get them back in straight and undamaged but I’m not positive. It’s been a long time since I did one. The rest is just removing and replacing bolts. Might also need a puller to get the pulley off the crankshaft.
Some tools you can borrow from a place like autozone for “free”. You have to give them a deposit for the price of the loaner tool and when you return it they refund the full amount.
I have seen this issue before, Someone droped a push rod on the concrete floor and the damage caused it to eat its way through the top of the lifter. Yours looks like moisture damage but hopfuly it ends here and dont go downstairs
You're hosed, dude. The metal that was part of those lifters is now circulating through the whole engine. Hopefully most of it is in the oil pan. The camshaft will have just as much wear as those lifters- if not more. If the camshaft lobes are worn down (and they are) they will not open and or close the valves properly. You will be better off to tear it out now and rebuild than to slap it all back together and cross your fingers every time you take it out of the slip. If there is any good news, 454's are relatively cheap to rebuild. A good machine shop can go through the motor and heads with stock replacement parts and reassemble the long block for you for less around 2500.
Same thing happened to me in a 1972 Cadillac with a 472. The lifter stuck in the open position forcing the pushrod up through the rocker arm. This in turn pushed the valve further down into the cylinder hitting the piston and bending the valve. I didn’t have the time or money to take the head off so I put it all back together with new parts. Three days later the valve broke putting a hole right in the center of the piston. The caddy was dead!
Your vids are great. Point of interest, a friend of mine has a Bayliner and he subastantially cut engine noise down by lining his engine compartment with Frost King wrap.
With the damage to the lifters I would consider (strongly recommend) changing the cam. When a lifter is worn like that it most certainly has destroyed the cam lobe it rides on. This also means that there is metal in the sump of the engine and possibly in other parts of the engine. This is looking like a complete overhaul of that engine. If the previous owner took that poor of care of these engines then I would suspect the other engine is in about the same need. It might be a good idea to look at rebuilt engines for the boat. It would be money saved in the future and peace of mind for you.
Careful what cam you use in that boat. Some have an odd fire setup where they reverse the #3an 7 cylinders, an some boats have a reverse rotation on one engine so the props will counter rotate. There can be 4 different cam shafts for that thing.
Welcome to being an old boat owner. Don’t feel bad, many have been exactly where you’re at. Believe me, it could be worse, but let’s hope for the best. First did you happen to notice the oil pressure? Does it drop a lot in 10 minutes? Low means bearing wear. Did you happen to notice if there was a cloud of blue smoke when it started? That’s valve guides, a little is normal with age and OK. Is there blue smoke while it’s up and running. Barely visible might be ok, but if it’s obvious, well you may have a ring problem. If those things are ok to than I wouldn’t mind throwing more time and money at it. When you pull the cam, change the chain and gear since you’re there. Pull and replace the thermostat(160 degree for closed system) I’d be swapping the water pump too if it doesn’t look like it’s been recently replaced. Good luck! Oh, those flat tappit lifters like high zinc oil. At Costco use Rotella T4 15-40. It’s actually for diesels but lots of us use it in our gasoline marine engines.
Suggestion: IF... you think that this project is beyond your skill level... overall it will be cheaper to get a professional in to do the job... right now you are looking at a possible complete rebuild (Where did the bits of metal go?) if the job is not done to completeness a detonation might occur... then you are looking at a complete engine replacement.... just a thought
Check out what way the engine spinn.. there is left and righ turning engine and they have different cams. Must bee Marine spec. Good luck. Nice boat🇳🇴👍👍👍Cleaning the oil sump is a must after cam/lifter havoc😫😫😫
My good friend had a 454 in his boat we would leave for the lake Fri night run that thing all weekend Monday tear down new head gaskets back together by Wednesday test ,back on lake on Fri night . They give you 8 cus you can run on 7. That is American V8 dependability plus you could pull 5 skiers
Looks like timing chain skipped , I would guess that there was piston to valve impact to drive the pushrod through the rocker arm . I would want to do a complete tear down and find out how much damage there was . Doing a half job may cost more than double if the half fix fails and totals the engine while under high rpm.
If you want to ensure this engine runs without more issues I’d recommend pulling it out and going through everything. How many hours does the engine have on it? You might be able to get away with doing the top end only. Good luck!
Just so you know, flat tappets need zinc, zinc has been removed from most oil. Additives don't work like real oil, valvoline zr1 racing oil one of the few left that still has the proper elements for that engine. Valve train, cam, and lifter damage will result
@@CullenCraft Very True Ken, all modern engines or most are overhead cams or roller cams and dont need the Zinc.. I have a 72 Monte Carlo with an old school 350 flat tappet lifters/cam and I order oil from Summit Racing with zinc. I don't trust the additives they sell at auto parts... Today's modern oils are just not good for older pre 80's engines... as well as unleaded gas... it stinks, I put non ethanol/recreational fuel in my carbureted chevy. What most marinas sell.
Pulling the camshaft is easy just make sure you use plenty of assembly lube on the cam lobes when installing it back in the block and you may as well replace the timing chain and gears and i honestly would put gear drive timing gears in instead of the the chain style its much more reliable
Timing is a snap on these engines. It's the DOHC engines that can pose a problem. If I was doing it, Roller lifters, Camshaft & Rockers would be installed. Cuts down on the parts wearing out. Keep in mind, Lifter manufacturers will not warranty new lifters being installed on a used Camshaft & Camshaft manufacturers won't warranty their parts if used lifters are installed. Bring the engine to Top Dead Center and mark the position of the Distributor rotor before removing the Distributor assembly. Makes timing the Ignition easier.
You need to check whether all of the valves being operated by the problem lifters are actually free to slide in their guides. Stuck or sticky valves in their guides could be the root cause of all your valve train problems. The lifter & cam damage you've seen is indicative of sever overloading of the lifter/cam lobe interface, and the one pushrod poking thru a rocker indicates that particular valve is likely 100% seized in it's guide.
Cullen Craft thanks. That’s what I have heard as well. The owner now has taken pretty good care of his boat. The injectors are being rebuilt before I sign the papers.
GM gas engines have a reputation going back to the 60's for cam/lifter failure. Design defect, nothing more. New cam. lifters, timing set. Back in business.
The worn lifters caused by not having the correct rocker arm adjustment, too tight of setting. Use STP for coating these parts, until the oil gets up into them. Get some angled feeler gauges, to correctly set the rockers.
There are several marine engine overhaul shops in Florida that can supply you with a fully rebuilt short block (or long block which includes rebuilt heads) for a lot less money than you might think. There are budget shops to which wealthier boaters would not touch and there are the premium shops that also charge a premium price for what is actually just an engine rebuild. Even the budget shops have a decent warranty. Covid 19 has hit many industries pretty hard in Florida but you should be able to find a rebuilt engine for your boat. When you call, the more information you have about your bad engine will help such as serial number (this tells the builder a lot about your existing engine) whether it is raw water cooled, accessories you have mounted to the engine, etc. Different years of engines have different mounting points for alternators,,, etc. So its important to get a rebuilt engine compatible with your accessories, or go with another engine base on availability and deal with other issues one by one. You can also have your engine professionally rebuilt. Because of the metal particles in the engine, It will need the full hot tank cleaning treatment and probably then some. Most likely you will need all new pistons, cam shaft and cam bearings will need pressed into the block. crank will depend on what they find. It may just need polishing or may need to be ground undersized with matching bearings. Your heads should be rebuilt as well. Since you have had backfiring on that carb, you should get a kit and rebuild that as well. In any case, you will get through this. The damage to the cam lobes and lifters however has probably caused significant damage to that engine. I personally would replace it with a rebuilt long block of similar vintage. You might luck out and find a salvaged engine that was well maintained, and make a deal. That 454 is a heavy beast and it will take some help and chain hoists to get it out. Enjoy, this goes hand in hand with boat ownership.... Joe
Thanks for the advice, but I've already chosen my path. I've got all the parts lined up ready to go in tomorrow. $296 and nothing more. I'm 98% sure it'll work just fine.
@@CullenCraft A new 454 marine engine can be bought for just under 10k. A couple of years ago, a rebuilt engine to serviceable specs with many new components, could be bought for under 2k. I wish you great success. Just wondering if you are going to remove your oil pan and scrape and clean all the metal shavings that will be laying in the sump. As others have indicated, that metal will continue to circulate throughout your engine bearings etc, and will rapidly destroy them along with metal surfaces with with any friction. Replacing the cam (and by the way a marine cam must be used as a replacement, they are different than stock cams and have the power curve at a higher rpm) and the bad lifters will not stop the cause of that failure which is the metal filings being circulated throughout the engine. I hope am wrong but with more than forty years of working on engines including marine engines, I have never seen what you are doing as being more than a temporary band aid say to move a single engine boat up or down the coast to a marina that can haul the boat and the engine can be properly rebuilt or replaced. Again, I hope this works for you. I know what its like not having deep pockets. If I were you, I would still be on the lookout for a good salvaged engine as a possibility. They can sometimes be had for very little under the right circumstances. With respect... Joe
You're right. The consequences for a job poorly done are minimal, and the opportunity for a new solution are even better if I fail. I'll do my best, but if that's not enough... There are plenty of other options. That's all part of the fun!
Cullen Craft I am both a pilot and boat owner. The consequences of a job not done well on either craft can be catastrophic and even life threatening.... Joe
If I'm not mistaken there is an oil ' that cam shaft that does get blocked on them chevy engines I believes on the rear of the engine It's in the block it will make sure that is not blocked
You can tap on the valve that seems stuck with a soft mallet and see if it moves, if it doesn't move like the others you have a valve problem. Just tap it don't smash it!
I agree with what people are suggesting to you theres more needed to make this engine last, shaving are probably threw out the oil system and need cleaned better. I would take here all apart and replace whats nessary.
Once you have the new cam installed. You're gonna have to break in the cam correctly. I definitely highly recommend looking up a channel called My Vintage Iron.!!! He has many videos about camshaft installation and break in. Once the new one is installed and you're ready to start the engine, make sure you DO NOT ALLOW IT TO IDLE!!! you must block the throttle open a bit and do not allow the engine to drop below 200-2500 rpm for at least 25 minutes!!!
It will probably be most cost effective to buy a "long block", a pre assembled engine and cylinder head assembly and simply swap your existing manifolds and accessories on the new engine. Bear in mind you will most likely still have to properly "run in" the camshaft using the method I described earlier. Remember, do not let the engine go below 2000-2500 rpm even for a second, for at least 25 minutes!!😁😁
At minimum you need cam, lifters, rockers, and push rods. And, if your taking the timing chain off there's very little point in putting the old one back on. However, as every SBC chevy owner will tell you, a fresh cam is only good for another 50k before the bottom end is gone. Pull the motor, rebuild in on land, and put it back in. Put up an amazon wish list for engine parts, and maybe see if a Mechanic UA-cam'r is willing to do a colab and help you with the rebuild.
The answer to your problem is the engine was running the wrong oil. The oil you need is a high zinc oil because you have a flat tappet style cam. The oil you need is valvoline VR1.
i woldnt worry about making any marks for the timing just follow the manual and replace the timing chan and gears while you have it open the last thing you want is to do all that work and reuse a wore out timing chain and have it snap or slip causing you do all the same work over agian
You need to check your exhaust manifold. It's water cooled on that boat. If it cracks it can force water back into the cylinder an hydro lock it an cause all the damage your seeing.
Im guessing previous owners just neglected them. Usually Marine Engines don't have excessive hours on them. Hopefully the Camshaft lobes aren't showing the same severe wear. Luckily, you couldnt have found an easier and cheaper engine to work on, these Big Blocks V8's are a simple design and thats why they are dead reliable when properly sorted.
Shot in the dark what if someone serviced the heads prior and mistakenly put a long lifter in a short lifter spot. Would definitely not have clearance so it would make its own
That is super interesting. Possible, maybe, but there were three super messed up lifters, if someone got a pair or two confused, there would be an even number of f*****d up ones. All the lifters are the same length, BTW. Its the lift rods that are different.
Cullen Craft I do not know if anybody has told you this about your boat motors. When they were made the oil in the 1970s used a chemical called zinc in the oil. Zinc lubricate the surface of the cam and lifters. this chemical was taken out of most oils sold today O2 sensors and catalytic. convertors. When you put the lifters on UA-cam I what happen to the motor it was lack of zinc in the oil. All is not lost, this oil can be purchased at most speed shop and most machine shop. I build race motors and cars and have seen this thing happen at least 100 times or more over the last 25 years. Also check the other engine it may have the same damage as well. Keep up the good work.
Take a light and look at the camera lobes to make sure they're okay if the buttons lifters are torn up like that make sure to come loads are not born in torn up
Don't worry you can't mess that up. You will need need a new timing chain and gear set but it's easy to align them. Just point the dots on the two gears at each other. That's it, nothing to it. Also start looking around ebay for a used timing light. I would send you one of mine but it would probably cost more to ship than you can buy one for. And research how to properly set the pre-load on the lifters. It's easy once you see how it's done.
You can do this!! The best scenario is to pull that motor out and rebuild it. You won’t regret it. The shavings are all through that engine. The cam and crank bearings are most likely scored too. Find a good friend who can help you. Read a lot and watch videos.
If you replace the cam the bearing should be replaced too. When I was real young I rebuilt the top part of my 79 Monte Carlos small block engine only to have the bottom end go! I tried to save money.
Well... Now it comes down to if you have enough room to pull the cam out under the floor without removing the engine. You'll need a puller to get the harmonic balancer off but that's the only "special" tool needed. Get an engine rebuild manual for the big block. There are plenty on Amazon for under $30. Can't go wrong with anything from David Vizard. I didn't pay attn, was the bad rocker on an exhaust valve or intake? If it was exhaust I bet you got water in from the manifold and possibly the valve rusted to the seat and temporarily stuck. Looks like they're all free now. You'll need to order a replacement marine cam. The numbers are usually stamped in the end. Wish I was close & I'd just come help!
There's definitely enough room. Can't see it in the video, but there's a whole 8 feet in front. The genset is about 4 feet away, but shouldn't be a problem.
@@CullenCraft That's good at least. The next major question/problem: Are either of your engines counter rotation? If so, I hope this one is the normal rotation engine. If it's normal rotation you'll probably end up just grabbing the smallest marine cam & lifters for the big block (like $200). Otherwise, you'll be searching for some unobtanium cam. There's a book out there called Big Block Chevy Marine Performance by Dennis Moore that has all the stock part numbers in it for the marine big blocks and what they interchange with. The problem is, those books are going for around $150 used these days. Also, find a Harbor Freight Tools near you to buy tools like your puller for the balancer. You'll likely never use it enough to wear it out.
Very good point! Yes the engines rotate opposite each other. I don't know which one is "standard" though. NEED to look that up and fingers crossed for an easy to find replacement. Thanks!
Weird thing is, both engine belt configs are identical, but rotation is opposite. Different starters and I've observed different rotation. Need to look back on that footage to know for sure.
Pull the heads ge,t them resurfaced and rebuilt,new cam lifters ,pushrods,rockers..drop the pan install new oil pump..and then pry your chevy will run.....oh yeah,rebuild the carbs!
Back when that engine was made with flat tappet lifters and cam oil contained a lot more zinc than the oil we have now. Zinc is great at wear prevention and there are only a few modern day oils that have enough of a zinc package for old flat tappet motors. I’d recommend you do some research about oils and specifically the amount of ZDDP in them before running an oil that will just cause this failure again. This might help you understand- www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0807-flat-tappet-cam-lubricants/
If your going to go into the top end it would be wise and a long term investment. First thing to Do #1 do a compression test and see what psi are on each cylinder to see how much life is left in the motor. You could also send a oil sample to *BLACK STONE LABS in FT.Wayne IN. * they will send you a sample kit for free when you contact them. You ship it back with your oil sample then they mail your sample results back and you can call them if you do t understand and they will happily explain your results to you. #2 if your compression test or sample test are good You have your heads checked and gone through new valve stem seals, valve and seat grind. Any machine shop can do this fairly cheap. New cam new lifters possibly change the flat tappet style lifter to roller lifters * as an option *also new timing chain and gears. #3 inspect the oil pan and oil sump to be sure it’s not sucked any metal into it. You could also install a new oil pump since you have the oil pan removed as well. These suggestions are what I would do. If it’s apart anything that can be gone through and replaced really should be. Just to save you from having to go through all the work and head ache should something else fail again. I Seen the videos thought hey this is really cool. Good work and good luck thanks for your time to read the comment.
It's really good to see so many advice comments responding to your challenges with the engine. I raised an eyebrow when you mentioned there was a set that you disposed of already on the boat. Beggars the question, why? Why did the boat have a set? Did they know?
... a "lifter' should have a slight "dome" shape on the bottom ... not concaved ... which causes the "lifter" to rotate when the cam lobe interacts with it ...
@@CullenCraft I've had issues in the past with cams being bad all the steel going to the motor and causing problems down the road. What did you do about the valve stuck issue the reason why the push rod got stuck through the rocker arm
Man I hate to be negative, just hate to see you throw a bunch of time and money at a bigger issue. There is all that metal from the wiped cam lobes and lifters that has went through the engine. I've swapped a bad cam on a 454 yrs ago, I even went as far as to left the engine and drop the pan to clean it as good as can be done, and replaced the oil pump. It made it about 50 hours use and ran good, but just started loosing oil pressure. Ended up pulling the engine for a full rebuild and all the rod bearings were shot from the metal debris. Also the piston skirts were embedded with metal and the bores had bad vertical scouring. This engine had just one bad lobe and lifter, the rest weren't that bad. Again not wanting to be negative, just be careful getting in to deep with this and patching it. May want to shop for a reman longblock.
I agree with those that say to pull it and have it "gone through." Otherwise, whatever new parts you are putting in it now could be wasted $$. Not to mention time. With what I have seen you do so far, you can get it out and tear it down. Then, take it to a machine shop. Might be best to have them assemble it. (They may prefer you don't tear it down.) That said, I have an airboat project on my channel where people are telling me what I am telling you, and I am NOT rebuilding. My defense though is that I did not find metal or damage. Not sure if they are the same motor, but Summit Racing has "long blocks" for Marine 454 for just over $3K. I assume the machine shop way is cheaper though.
Your getting greasy now eh? Surprise surprise 😝. Cam should be mic’d. What about the other bank ya think? Timing is easy enough....engine will have reference point for TDC and so should the cam wheel. Just make sure you mark everything before you pull it....oh wait you are likely done by now lol. Oh....and what the H were you thinking???? You NEVER throw out stuff that comes in the spare parts pile 🙄. Oh well...live and learn. Looking forward to seeing the progress and positive result.
Take some advice and sell those two 454 to a hit rodder and find a couple of 6cylinders Cummings diesel engine, made before the common rail type, that came in earlier model 2500 Dodge pickups.
Thanks, but no thanks. I really enjoy having this boat be as powerful as it was intended to be. It was engineered to be a beast and a beast she shall be. Even though that comes with a lot of sacrifices, this level of peak original power is what I love about this power train.
You have a bad exhaust manifold that is allowing water in that particular cylinder. Water doesn’t compress. You should never see rust in the exhaust manifold ports.
#1chevy two engines two problems . If you rebuild one the other is weaker . #2 chevy parts are the cheapest to buy and the most available . High torque cams for industrial use are pretty much the same as for boat use and because they aren't labeled marine use they are cheaper . Check into rock crawler engine builds and you might find what you need at a much lower cost . Then again i bet that 454 is stock truck engine with marine cooling bolted on . But you need both to run with in 80% of each other .
Oh man, this is most boat owner's nightmare right here, you go digging into an issue and the hole just gets deeper and deeper. Those lifters took a beating for sure. What are your thoughts after reading other comments, are you going to just rebuild the top end or pull it and rebuild the whole thing? We're along with you for the ride, no matter your decision. Good luck brother!
Still figuring it out honestly... I don't have super deep pockets, but I need to get back on the water!
@@capicolaspicy Three lifters were incredibly worn and concave on their lower surface. I was able to barely look at the cam without removing it and the lobes are worn in a matching pattern. If I replaced just the lifters, they would quickly be worn back down because of the rounded lobes.
@@CullenCraft I had tried to delete this and two other comments because I jumped the gun and made those comments before watching further into the video to see those destroyed lifters and hear about the cam lobes. As you were, never mind LOL. I love your spunk and determination and wish you total success on this!
@@CullenCraft Save yourself a ton of money and future headaches with repairs and inconvenience. That engine can be saved but if you do a partial repair for half the money and then blow the engine completely you are then much farther behind the ball. Complete rebuild & reinstall will mean you know exactly where you stand. The one comment I did see below mentioned the issue with water in the exhaust port is part of what most worries me about boat (Marinized) engines. Solid engines are not something to take a chance on. Your life may depend on them at some point.
A rollerized block works a lot better in water . Flat tappets are for street use .WATER = ROLLER CAUSE THERES LESS FRICTION = EASIER TO SPIN . IT'S JUST COMON SCENSE AND YOU DO NOT NEED DEEP POCKETS , YOU JUST HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO SHOP .
SPEEDMASTER.COM & SUMMIT .That's where you can start .
Timing: Before you remove the cam, make sure the dot on the cam gear is to the top as well as the dot on the crank gear. They both should line up perfectly. Now the engine is in "Top Dead Center" or TDC. Piston number one is all the way up. Now you can remove the cam bolts and remove it. Assembly is reverse of removal. When assembling the cam, put Vaseline or assembly lube on all the lobes and the bearings. Vaseline melts as the engine warms up and dissolves and acts as an additional protection to the gears. The lifters are installed after the cam is in place. I fill them with oil and put Vaseline on the bottoms to avoid dry start. I also test them that they are functional. They should act like the springs, going in and out. They must have a give. If not the lifter is bad. There are bad lifters and the cam will eat into them like the old ones or bend the rod. Lifters also have to rotate in their spot. Make sure they can turn in their place otherwise clean the groove. The cam should be able to turn them around. After you assemble, make sure you put at least three liters of Zinc oil with the oil. These old engines require Zinc oil. My assumption for what happened is lack of Zinc oil along with bad lifters. The rocker is just a bad casting that has failed under pressure. Good luck.
Valid point, extremely good info
Top dead center
First use diesel oil, 10w40 minimum. Good old dino Rotella has zinc & wear inhibitors your engine needs. Use good assembly lube & check or replace cam bearings. You'll need to soak new lifters in oil (submerged) 12-24 hours before installing. Insert a slender rod or stick in #1 plug hole to determine TDC by rocking crank bolt back & forth to check cam & crank timing mark. The only thing at all difficult is installing the distributor after disturbing the engine. You may want to try dropping iit back in place before you move the crank. Look @ manual for dist. cap position of #1 plug wire. FYI its a good idea is to pull coil wire & crank engine to allow oil pressure to build. Then start & run @ high idle 1500-2000 for 20-30 minutes. Stop immediately if you hear metallic noise. I would definitely change out oil before starting. And again after 10 or 20 hours.
Good luck. FYI 40+ years turning wrenches.
the cam and crank dot should align they shouldn't both be at the top cam gear dot will be at the bottom of the sprocket and crank dot will be at the top of the sprocket when at TDC
You are aware that twin boat moters one turns opposite the other.
I was in your shoes many years ago, not a boat motor but a 390 truck engine. I ended up replacing heads cam and intake. I had no problem with cam timing but a month after getting the motor running, I broke rings and piston skirts on two pistons. Fresh tight top end met tired lower end. I’m guessing that is a Chevrolet big block? Bite the bullet and rebuild the entire engine.
Hey Cullen your living your dream! That doesn’t mean that everything’s going to be a rose garden! Love your attitude. I’m 56 and wish I had your desire when I was your age.
I own a 1996 Sea Ray on the gulf Coast of Alabama and enjoy everything about her! The good and the not so good. I’ve done most of the cosmetic restoration myself, but have used the mercruiser master mechanic from the service dept. on the bigger jobs(like a new transom assembly which meant a complete engine removal) as depressing and costly as that was, she’s running great now.
Ask around the marina for advice or for someone to just spot check what your doing. One thing I love about boat ownership is that there are lots of friendly boaters that love to give a hand and offer wise advise.
Good luck on her. I love the older boats. They have so much more character than the new models. Plus, it’s always nice to hear the compliments from others on how nice she looks.
Best of luck!
Thanks Barry! How did your sea ray fare in the storm last week?
Cullen Craft we were very lucky/fortunate. We are dry stacked at Barber Marina and thankfully had no damage. The same can’t be said to the wet slips. They sustained catastrophic damage.
We tried to get to the marina, but because of the damage to the slips and the ship store it’s off limits till maybe next week.
If you look on UA-cam for boats damaged at Barber Marina, you’ll see a clip of the damage.
The slips are concrete floating docks and we’re made to withstand at least 10’ of storm surge and they’re destroyed.
Hopefully we’ll be back boating in 2-3 months, but until then it’s not advisable to be in the water due to all the debris.
As far as I’m concerned that’s a small sacrifice compared to all the boats and property lost.
after seeing the valve was free to open and the push rod was open for oil you should have looked 'upstream' to the lifter.
you are very willing to jump in and find/fix problems - this is a good channel to watch videos on
'keep 'um coming
Cullen if you are not a mechanic yet, you'll certainly be one over this year!!! I know it's disheartening having to do repairs but please celebrate that you're getting closer to having excellent engines. This will make you feel more confident when you take her out!! I really admire your adventurous spirit to do as much work as you can on your own. UA-cam is a wonderful teacher for all us shade tree mechanics!!!
Easy job, roller chain, good gasket set, shopvac with 3/8 hose attachment for oil sump cleanout, case of gumout for interior washdown. Easy job. Loose your boatowner V-Card on a bigblock in-bilge mini rebuild.
After thinking about the rocker arm damage, I would definitely get a cheap bore scope & inspect the piston on that cylinder. If you have a new moon smile or no damage on face piston will be usable. If U have a hole, crack or edge damage, piston will need to be replaced. Also, I would question whether you have a bent valve in this case. Valve could be bent but not stuck causing failure to seal & low compression or dead cylinder. Easiest way to check is w/ screw in adapter & air pressure. Screw the adapter in sparkplug hole apply 50+ psi to the cylinder & listen for air leak at port. No hissing sound valve is sealing = good. Hiss at port, well you are pulling the head for valve work. Better to find out now than later. FYI I maybe be able to rent a compression tester @ auto parts store & adapt it to air hose. If piston is not damaged & engine had good oil pressure I think bottom end should be Ok as it was a good used running engine. FYI I've been turning wrenches since the 70's. Seen wiped camshaft , bent pushrod, damaged lifters, broken rockers, missing rocker (OHC engine) but never seen a pushrod shoved thru the rocker arm. Sorry if this is long or someone else has made these suggestions. Wanted you to have info but didn't read thru 100+ posts.
Second thought, if you test cylinder with air pressure and you don't hear a leak, you won't need to view cylinder with scope. If you have audible leak, then listen at lifter valley for hiss. Then damp finger in front of intake & exhaust ports will find the location of the leak. Hiss at valley = piston. At ports valve or valve seat. Pulling heads in boat is very doable. I have done piston swap in boat but you need room to drop oil pan & pump. When you get to reassembly you'll need the valve lifter pre-load procedure.
I got rocker arm chatter in my SBC 350. Adjusting the flat tappet hydraulics did NOT help. Got noisier, then power seemed to go away. She started shaking and was real doggy. Crept her into the drive way and she pooped out . Pretty sure when I drain the oil, and then pull the lifters out the story will be told. I'm a shade tree mechanic since the early 1970's. No, I did not use a zinc additive after the engine rebuild a year ago. The few dollars not spent has most likely caught up to me with flattened lobes.
@@billycarpenter4740 So if it's shaky misfiring after valve adjustment it's too tight & holding valves open. Loose & noisey much better than tight. Have you just replaced lifters or you suspect failed lifter? Noise is either collapsed valve lifter, wiped cam lobes, bent push rod or damaged rocker arms/pulled studs. Or Ur could be multiple faults. Take your time checking things. Killing house flies with a shotgun or a hammer makes alot of extra work. 😎
@@billycarpenter4740 easy valve lash adjustment technique. You spin the push rod w/ your fingers. You can feel as the lash gets to zero lash or too lose or too tight. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th times after rotating crank you're only checking for loose valves.
Link: ua-cam.com/video/XR4W-MWjEyI/v-deo.html
@@knockywigglesworth1909 The heads need to come off and the pistons need to come out. There are metal shavings everywhere in this motor now with 3 lifters and the cam ate up. No real point in scoping the cylinders and doing compression tests at this point. Gotta strip it to the bare block and get if totally flushed out. New bearings everywhere and might as well put new rings on while it's this far apart. He is building a motor at this point and no two ways around it. Sadly for him.
Cam replacement's not a big deal just a lot of labor and a tight hole. You'll need the cam and lifter kit.
New timing chain and gear set.
If it was me I'd go ahead and pull the heads and have them reworked, regrind the valves, new valve seals and check for cracks. Right across the river in Riverside Lime Street.
Machine shop, welding fabrication.
They do good work and a very reasonable.
Yes, I would have done the upper end. with one cylinder not working as it should, I would want to see the cylinders as well. just saying.
Dude you're doing a great job! I'm a mechanic and thought you were getting way in over you're head. You doing great!
Thanks!
Your welcome. The people who jump in and get it done are listed in my book of Kickin ass and taking names.
Hey Cullen, thanks for taking the time and effort to share your experiences, both good and bad. It's not always about the destination, but the journey. You've invested your whole heart bringing this dream to life and everyone can see and appreciate that. It's great you are taking the advice from people commenting. I worked for a mechanic in high school years ago and also amazed at the engineering and technology that brings these hunks of iron to life! The only thing I want to offer that I haven't seen suggested is to invest in a quality torque wrench. The parts you're working with are exposed to a lot of stress and vibration...
Doing what was mentioned in prior comment help ensure a long trouble free life of the motor especially if it has good compression the cylinder that had the busted rocker I would defiantly check the compression on that cylinder to see if it’s in spec. There’s nothing worse than putting a bunch of time and money into a motor then to later have something fail or cause an issue that could have been dealt with when being repaired for another issue. Thanks and good luck again
Glad my 69 commander has 427 fords good luck on the rebuild you have a good boat
You took a very round about way to diagnose a known design flaw of the GM engines, but given your lack of experience I admire your logical and comprehensive approach, not to mention your willingness to venture into unknown territory.
Yeah, I had a feeling it was gonna end up with a new can. I was just hoping beyond hope that it didn't. Thanks for watching!
Replace ALL the lifters along with the camshaft. There is an assembly lube that should be used when reinstalling the camshaft and lifters. It has a very thick constancy so it clings to the newly installed moving parts during the initial start. Insure you have oil pressure during restart too. Be very careful to not "nick" the camshaft bearings as you slooooly remove the camshaft. Do a You Tube search on how to set the initial timing on the engine. A compression test on ALL cylinders should be done after you reassemble the engine. When were the exhaust cooling water manifolds last replaced? If equipped, what are the run hours on each engine? You might want to install permanent LED lighting strips around the perimeter of the engine opening hatches so you can see what you are doing. They don't cost much. Good luck!
There are plenty of youtube videos about the same engine, and doing the same repairs.
Yo bud, just my 2 cents, but do the entire engine. You have metal shavings in the engine, cam is almost 100% toast, it would be a shame to try and replace cam, lifters pushrods and rocker arms and then have cam, rod and main bearings go on you.
I just did rebuild for my buddy on his searay 37' twin 454 one engine had same issue.
You are correct, but the problem is lifter failure, which wipes the cam. This is typical of GM engines since the 60's. The cam/lifter material settles in the oil pan and then plugs the oil pump pick up. That is when the engine fails.
just had a conv with an old GM mechanic---that push rod thru the rocker could have been caused by over-revving--really is common with marine engines--operator problems??------mikey
Hi Cullen. I’ve been watching you for a few evenings. Your energy is super. I have worked on one or two boats motors. A couple things to think about. The lift muffler on your generator is steel. That includes the standpipe that provides water to exit safely and not get into the generator engine. Please drain the muffler and don’t use the generator until you can swing installing a fiberglass muffler. Oil your port engine up, secure it until you can swing the money to change the risers. It looks like the manifolds are fresh water cooled. I should have looked closer before commenting on them being fresh water cooled. If they are seawater cooled change them as well. Get yourself some plugs and plug the exhaust hoses so the boat does not flood while they are apart. I’m certain I have the technical manuals for your motors and generator in case you need them. Good job on all your doing. God bless ya...
Thank you! Especially the genset advice is great. I've given very little thought to it, but i did run it for 5 minutes a few weeks ago... Until it peetered out lol. Definitely needs some solid work before I can depend on it. The muffler, especially, needs to go.
OH! And keep this on the down low... But i got a grand new exhaust manifold to replace the one with rust marks in it. Better safe than sorry! Be looking for that in my next video.
Cullen Craft truth is, I have worked on boats all my life. Just don’t wanna say so in public. I will be happy to guide ya through the steps your taking. Another day at the office for me. If you need to discuss I can give u my contact. I’m not far from you
Getting the timing right will be one of the easier parts of replacing the camshaft. Should just have a couple of dots to line up on the timing gears and if I remember correctly they can only go on one way. The distributor might also give you a little trouble lining it back up after you put the new can in. The slot in the bottom turns the oil pump. Camshaft bearing removal/installation will be the “difficult” part. Might need a special tool to get them back in straight and undamaged but I’m not positive. It’s been a long time since I did one. The rest is just removing and replacing bolts. Might also need a puller to get the pulley off the crankshaft.
Some tools you can borrow from a place like autozone for “free”. You have to give them a deposit for the price of the loaner tool and when you return it they refund the full amount.
I have seen this issue before, Someone droped a push rod on the concrete floor and the damage caused it to eat its way through the top of the lifter. Yours looks like moisture damage but hopfuly it ends here and dont go downstairs
You're hosed, dude. The metal that was part of those lifters is now circulating through the whole engine. Hopefully most of it is in the oil pan. The camshaft will have just as much wear as those lifters- if not more. If the camshaft lobes are worn down (and they are) they will not open and or close the valves properly. You will be better off to tear it out now and rebuild than to slap it all back together and cross your fingers every time you take it out of the slip. If there is any good news, 454's are relatively cheap to rebuild. A good machine shop can go through the motor and heads with stock replacement parts and reassemble the long block for you for less around 2500.
Same thing happened to me in a 1972 Cadillac with a 472. The lifter stuck in the open position forcing the pushrod up through the rocker arm. This in turn pushed the valve further down into the cylinder hitting the piston and bending the valve. I didn’t have the time or money to take the head off so I put it all back together with new parts. Three days later the valve broke putting a hole right in the center of the piston. The caddy was dead!
Your vids are great. Point of interest, a friend of mine has a Bayliner and he subastantially cut engine noise down by lining his engine compartment with Frost King wrap.
I can fix that, BUT YOU'RE DOING AWESOME. Great attitude.
If you ever want to come out to lake travis Texas,,, your more than welcome to check out the commander
I might take you up on that someday!
With the damage to the lifters I would consider (strongly recommend) changing the cam. When a lifter is worn like that it most certainly has destroyed the cam lobe it rides on. This also means that there is metal in the sump of the engine and possibly in other parts of the engine. This is looking like a complete overhaul of that engine.
If the previous owner took that poor of care of these engines then I would suspect the other engine is in about the same need. It might be a good idea to look at rebuilt engines for the boat. It would be money saved in the future and peace of mind for you.
Careful what cam you use in that boat. Some have an odd fire setup where they reverse the #3an 7 cylinders, an some boats have a reverse rotation on one engine so the props will counter rotate. There can be 4 different cam shafts for that thing.
Welcome to being an old boat owner. Don’t feel bad, many have been exactly where you’re at. Believe me, it could be worse, but let’s hope for the best. First did you happen to notice the oil pressure? Does it drop a lot in 10 minutes? Low means bearing wear. Did you happen to notice if there was a cloud of blue smoke when it started? That’s valve guides, a little is normal with age and OK. Is there blue smoke while it’s up and running. Barely visible might be ok, but if it’s obvious, well you may have a ring problem. If those things are ok to than I wouldn’t mind throwing more time and money at it. When you pull the cam, change the chain and gear since you’re there. Pull and replace the thermostat(160 degree for closed system) I’d be swapping the water pump too if it doesn’t look like it’s been recently replaced. Good luck!
Oh, those flat tappit lifters like high zinc oil. At Costco use Rotella T4 15-40. It’s actually for diesels but lots of us use it in our gasoline marine engines.
No smoke at all! Just clear water and maybe a tiny bit of steam.
Dedelec
Excellent! Read my edit above about oil. Good luck again.
Suggestion: IF... you think that this project is beyond your skill level... overall it will be cheaper to get a professional in to do the job... right now you are looking at a possible complete rebuild (Where did the bits of metal go?) if the job is not done to completeness a detonation might occur... then you are looking at a complete engine replacement.... just a thought
You will absolutely have to replace the cam!! And the lifters!!
Check out what way the engine spinn.. there is left and righ turning engine and they have different cams. Must bee Marine spec. Good luck. Nice boat🇳🇴👍👍👍Cleaning the oil sump is a must after cam/lifter havoc😫😫😫
Best way to learn. Just like you're doing.
My good friend had a 454 in his boat we would leave for the lake Fri night run that thing all weekend Monday tear down new head gaskets back together by Wednesday test ,back on lake on Fri night . They give you 8 cus you can run on 7. That is American V8 dependability plus you could pull 5 skiers
Looks like timing chain skipped , I would guess that there was piston to valve impact to drive the pushrod through the rocker arm . I would want to do a complete tear down and find out how much damage there was . Doing a half job may cost more than double if the half fix fails and totals the engine while under high rpm.
If you want to ensure this engine runs without more issues I’d recommend pulling it out and going through everything. How many hours does the engine have on it? You might be able to get away with doing the top end only. Good luck!
You gotta inspect the connecting rod and crank bearings minimum. Motor still has to go to a machine shop to put new cam bearings in!
He can put the cam bearing in
Just so you know, flat tappets need zinc, zinc has been removed from most oil. Additives don't work like real oil, valvoline zr1 racing oil one of the few left that still has the proper elements for that engine. Valve train, cam, and lifter damage will result
Thats great to know! I'll look into it.
@@CullenCraft Very True Ken, all modern engines or most are overhead cams or roller cams and dont need the Zinc.. I have a 72 Monte Carlo with an old school 350 flat tappet lifters/cam and I order oil from Summit Racing with zinc. I don't trust the additives they sell at auto parts... Today's modern oils are just not good for older pre 80's engines... as well as unleaded gas... it stinks, I put non ethanol/recreational fuel in my carbureted chevy. What most marinas sell.
How many engine? Time for a major overhaul .
Pulling the camshaft is easy just make sure you use plenty of assembly lube on the cam lobes when installing it back in the block and you may as well replace the timing chain and gears and i honestly would put gear drive timing gears in instead of the the chain style its much more reliable
Timing is a snap on these engines. It's the DOHC engines that can pose a problem. If I was doing it, Roller lifters, Camshaft & Rockers would be installed. Cuts down on the parts wearing out. Keep in mind, Lifter manufacturers will not warranty new lifters being installed on a used Camshaft & Camshaft manufacturers won't warranty their parts if used lifters are installed. Bring the engine to Top Dead Center and mark the position of the Distributor rotor before removing the Distributor assembly. Makes timing the Ignition easier.
You need to check whether all of the valves being operated by the problem lifters are actually free to slide in their guides. Stuck or sticky valves in their guides could be the root cause of all your valve train problems. The lifter & cam damage you've seen is indicative of sever overloading of the lifter/cam lobe interface, and the one pushrod poking thru a rocker indicates that particular valve is likely 100% seized in it's guide.
I am thinking of buying a 97 45’ Carver with twin Crusader engines. What is your opinion on these engines so far?
They're solid, although theyre not bulletproof. The silver lining is that parts are super available. Never going to run out of them. Good luck!
Cullen Craft thanks. That’s what I have heard as well. The owner now has taken pretty good care of his boat. The injectors are being rebuilt before I sign the papers.
Injectors? Were the carburetors replaced?
Cullen Craft the engines are 1997. EFI. I think there were never carbs on these engines. I will ask though.
My opinion, is due to the 454 being a cold natured; someone ran the boat hard before the engine was at a proper operating temperature.
GM gas engines have a reputation going back to the 60's for cam/lifter failure. Design defect, nothing more. New cam. lifters, timing set. Back in business.
New to your channel. You got this. I love those engines and by you repairing the problem. They will keep you safe. Good luck
Welcome! That's the goal. The final rebuild video should be out next week.
Don't feel bad. New Dodge Challenger Hemi's are having the same problems as you 78 engine with soft valves and lifter materials.
Wish I was there to help you, we could get it done really quickly.
Pro mechanic.
The worn lifters caused by not having the correct rocker arm adjustment, too tight of setting. Use STP for coating these parts, until the oil gets up into them. Get some angled feeler gauges, to correctly set the rockers.
There are several marine engine overhaul shops in Florida that can supply you with a fully rebuilt short block (or long block which includes rebuilt heads) for a lot less money than you might think. There are budget shops to which wealthier boaters would not touch and there are the premium shops that also charge a premium price for what is actually just an engine rebuild. Even the budget shops have a decent warranty. Covid 19 has hit many industries pretty hard in Florida but you should be able to find a rebuilt engine for your boat. When you call, the more information you have about your bad engine will help such as serial number (this tells the builder a lot about your existing engine) whether it is raw water cooled, accessories you have mounted to the engine, etc. Different years of engines have different mounting points for alternators,,, etc. So its important to get a rebuilt engine compatible with your accessories, or go with another engine base on availability and deal with other issues one by one. You can also have your engine professionally rebuilt. Because of the metal particles in the engine, It will need the full hot tank cleaning treatment and probably then some. Most likely you will need all new pistons, cam shaft and cam bearings will need pressed into the block. crank will depend on what they find. It may just need polishing or may need to be ground undersized with matching bearings. Your heads should be rebuilt as well. Since you have had backfiring on that carb, you should get a kit and rebuild that as well. In any case, you will get through this. The damage to the cam lobes and lifters however has probably caused significant damage to that engine. I personally would replace it with a rebuilt long block of similar vintage. You might luck out and find a salvaged engine that was well maintained, and make a deal. That 454 is a heavy beast and it will take some help and chain hoists to get it out. Enjoy, this goes hand in hand with boat ownership.... Joe
Can they do it for less than $300?
Thanks for the advice, but I've already chosen my path. I've got all the parts lined up ready to go in tomorrow. $296 and nothing more. I'm 98% sure it'll work just fine.
@@CullenCraft A new 454 marine engine can be bought for just under 10k. A couple of years ago, a rebuilt engine to serviceable specs with many new components, could be bought for under 2k.
I wish you great success. Just wondering if you are going to remove your oil pan and scrape and clean all the metal shavings that will be laying in the sump. As others have indicated, that metal will continue to circulate throughout your engine bearings etc, and will rapidly destroy them along with metal surfaces with with any friction. Replacing the cam (and by the way a marine cam must be used as a replacement, they are different than stock cams and have the power curve at a higher rpm) and the bad lifters will not stop the cause of that failure which is the metal filings being circulated throughout the engine. I hope am wrong but with more than forty years of working on engines including marine engines, I have never seen what you are doing as being more than a temporary band aid say to move a single engine boat up or down the coast to a marina that can haul the boat and the engine can be properly rebuilt or replaced.
Again, I hope this works for you. I know what its like not having deep pockets. If I were you, I would still be on the lookout for a good salvaged engine as a possibility. They can sometimes be had for very little under the right circumstances. With respect... Joe
You're right. The consequences for a job poorly done are minimal, and the opportunity for a new solution are even better if I fail.
I'll do my best, but if that's not enough... There are plenty of other options. That's all part of the fun!
Cullen Craft I am both a pilot and boat owner. The consequences of a job not done well on either craft can be catastrophic and even life threatening.... Joe
If I'm not mistaken there is an oil ' that cam shaft that does get blocked on them chevy engines I believes on the rear of the engine It's in the block it will make sure that is not blocked
You can tap on the valve that seems stuck with a soft mallet and see if it moves, if it doesn't move like the others you have a valve problem. Just tap it don't smash it!
I agree with what people are suggesting to you theres more needed to make this engine last, shaving are probably threw out the oil system and need cleaned better. I would take here all apart and replace whats nessary.
Once you have the new cam installed. You're gonna have to break in the cam correctly. I definitely highly recommend looking up a channel called My Vintage Iron.!!! He has many videos about camshaft installation and break in. Once the new one is installed and you're ready to start the engine, make sure you DO NOT ALLOW IT TO IDLE!!! you must block the throttle open a bit and do not allow the engine to drop below 200-2500 rpm for at least 25 minutes!!!
It will probably be most cost effective to buy a "long block", a pre assembled engine and cylinder head assembly and simply swap your existing manifolds and accessories on the new engine. Bear in mind you will most likely still have to properly "run in" the camshaft using the method I described earlier. Remember, do not let the engine go below 2000-2500 rpm even for a second, for at least 25 minutes!!😁😁
Glad you mentioned the proper break-in. Can wipe out the new cam in minutes if not done.
what the part number on these rocker arms please???? i cant find them anywhere I haver the same engine
At minimum you need cam, lifters, rockers, and push rods. And, if your taking the timing chain off there's very little point in putting the old one back on.
However, as every SBC chevy owner will tell you, a fresh cam is only good for another 50k before the bottom end is gone. Pull the motor, rebuild in on land, and put it back in.
Put up an amazon wish list for engine parts, and maybe see if a Mechanic UA-cam'r is willing to do a colab and help you with the rebuild.
Keep going..as we say in England in for a penny in for a pound.
The answer to your problem is the engine was running the wrong oil. The oil you need is a high zinc oil because you have a flat tappet style cam. The oil you need is valvoline VR1.
+1 Agree!!!
enjoyed watching this whole series. good luck brother!
i woldnt worry about making any marks for the timing just follow the manual and replace the timing chan and gears while you have it open the last thing you want is to do all that work and reuse a wore out timing chain and have it snap or slip causing you do all the same work over agian
You need to check your exhaust manifold. It's water cooled on that boat. If it cracks it can force water back into the cylinder an hydro lock it an cause all the damage your seeing.
Im guessing previous owners just neglected them. Usually Marine Engines don't have excessive hours on them. Hopefully the Camshaft lobes aren't showing the same severe wear. Luckily, you couldnt have found an easier and cheaper engine to work on, these Big Blocks V8's are a simple design and thats why they are dead reliable when properly sorted.
Shot in the dark what if someone serviced the heads prior and mistakenly put a long lifter in a short lifter spot. Would definitely not have clearance so it would make its own
That is super interesting. Possible, maybe, but there were three super messed up lifters, if someone got a pair or two confused, there would be an even number of f*****d up ones.
All the lifters are the same length, BTW. Its the lift rods that are different.
Cullen Craft
I do not know if anybody has told you this about your boat motors. When they were made the oil in the 1970s used a chemical called zinc in the oil. Zinc lubricate the surface of the cam and lifters. this chemical was taken out of most oils sold today O2 sensors and catalytic. convertors. When you put the lifters on UA-cam I what happen to the motor it was lack of zinc in the oil. All is not lost, this oil can be purchased at most speed shop and most machine shop. I build race motors and cars and have seen this thing happen at least 100 times or more over the last 25 years. Also check the other engine it may have the same damage as well. Keep up the good work.
Take a light and look at the camera lobes to make sure they're okay if the buttons lifters are torn up like that make sure to come loads are not born in torn up
Don't worry you can't mess that up. You will need need a new timing chain and gear set but it's easy to align them. Just point the dots on the two gears at each other. That's it, nothing to it. Also start looking around ebay for a used timing light. I would send you one of mine but it would probably cost more to ship than you can buy one for. And research how to properly set the pre-load on the lifters. It's easy once you see how it's done.
Can you change your plugs without removing the manifolds?
Yes. The manifolds are (thankfully) designed around the plugs
Hydraulic lifter issue?? Collapse
You need to use.zink in the oil
Shell rotella for diesel trucks
Just take your time and do it right have any doubt on UA-cam I got videos of shows you step by step on how to change a cam set your timing
You can do this!! The best scenario is to pull that motor out and rebuild it. You won’t regret it. The shavings are all through that engine. The cam and crank bearings are most likely scored too. Find a good friend who can help you. Read a lot and watch videos.
If you replace the cam the bearing should be replaced too. When I was real young I rebuilt the top part of my 79 Monte Carlos small block engine only to have the bottom end go! I tried to save money.
This right here is why I opted for a sailboat. Not only that, those big engines must cost a fortune in gasoline to run!
Well... Now it comes down to if you have enough room to pull the cam out under the floor without removing the engine. You'll need a puller to get the harmonic balancer off but that's the only "special" tool needed. Get an engine rebuild manual for the big block. There are plenty on Amazon for under $30. Can't go wrong with anything from David Vizard. I didn't pay attn, was the bad rocker on an exhaust valve or intake? If it was exhaust I bet you got water in from the manifold and possibly the valve rusted to the seat and temporarily stuck. Looks like they're all free now. You'll need to order a replacement marine cam. The numbers are usually stamped in the end. Wish I was close & I'd just come help!
There's definitely enough room. Can't see it in the video, but there's a whole 8 feet in front. The genset is about 4 feet away, but shouldn't be a problem.
@@CullenCraft That's good at least. The next major question/problem: Are either of your engines counter rotation? If so, I hope this one is the normal rotation engine. If it's normal rotation you'll probably end up just grabbing the smallest marine cam & lifters for the big block (like $200). Otherwise, you'll be searching for some unobtanium cam. There's a book out there called Big Block Chevy Marine Performance by Dennis Moore that has all the stock part numbers in it for the marine big blocks and what they interchange with. The problem is, those books are going for around $150 used these days. Also, find a Harbor Freight Tools near you to buy tools like your puller for the balancer. You'll likely never use it enough to wear it out.
Very good point! Yes the engines rotate opposite each other. I don't know which one is "standard" though. NEED to look that up and fingers crossed for an easy to find replacement. Thanks!
@@CullenCraft Looking at the front of the engine the crankshaft will turn clockwise on the standard rotation engine.
Weird thing is, both engine belt configs are identical, but rotation is opposite. Different starters and I've observed different rotation. Need to look back on that footage to know for sure.
Pull the heads ge,t them resurfaced and rebuilt,new cam lifters ,pushrods,rockers..drop the pan install new oil pump..and then pry your chevy will run.....oh yeah,rebuild the carbs!
Ur the man. Keep wrenching you got it
Heck yea! Thanks for sticking around.
Get a fiber optic cable and have a look at the offending cylinder. Harbor Freight search for Digital Video Inspection Camera
Back when that engine was made with flat tappet lifters and cam oil contained a lot more zinc than the oil we have now. Zinc is great at wear prevention and there are only a few modern day oils that have enough of a zinc package for old flat tappet motors. I’d recommend you do some research about oils and specifically the amount of ZDDP in them before running an oil that will just cause this failure again.
This might help you understand-
www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0807-flat-tappet-cam-lubricants/
Also, there are zinc supplements you can add to an oil.
Brian Jones Agreed - I’ve been told that ACdelco EOS is a really good additive for ZDDP.
Look into a moly additive. I use Liquimoly in my tow vehicles.
If your going to go into the top end it would be wise and a long term investment. First thing to Do #1 do a compression test and see what psi are on each cylinder to see how much life is left in the motor. You could also send a oil sample to *BLACK STONE LABS in FT.Wayne IN. * they will send you a sample kit for free when you contact them. You ship it back with your oil sample then they mail your sample results back and you can call them if you do t understand and they will happily explain your results to you. #2 if your compression test or sample test are good You have your heads checked and gone through new valve stem seals, valve and seat grind. Any machine shop can do this fairly cheap. New cam new lifters possibly change the flat tappet style lifter to roller lifters * as an option *also new timing chain and gears. #3 inspect the oil pan and oil sump to be sure it’s not sucked any metal into it. You could also install a new oil pump since you have the oil pan removed as well. These suggestions are what I would do. If it’s apart anything that can be gone through and replaced really should be. Just to save you from having to go through all the work and head ache should something else fail again. I Seen the videos thought hey this is really cool. Good work and good luck thanks for your time to read the comment.
It's really good to see so many advice comments responding to your challenges with the engine. I raised an eyebrow when you mentioned there was a set that you disposed of already on the boat. Beggars the question, why? Why did the boat have a set? Did they know?
Keep it clean and use prelubes,
Cam is shot. You need to replace that cam!
... a "lifter' should have a slight "dome" shape on the bottom ... not concaved ... which causes the "lifter" to rotate when the cam lobe interacts with it ...
should check out steel roller rocker arms
$$$
Hey how many hours on the broken one
The hours meters are pretty unreliable. One was even broken. I replaced them both, so I'll be able to keep track of maintenance moving forward.
Nothing says good morning like a little 10w40
Cool can't wait to hear it.
4:49 it's called "Staking a valve"
that sucks, were are you at on the job.
Very close to being done. Need to replace the distributer cap and coil and we'll be good to go!
@@CullenCraft I've had issues in the past with cams being bad all the steel going to the motor and causing problems down the road. What did you do about the valve stuck issue the reason why the push rod got stuck through the rocker arm
New video coming out on saturday... All your questions will be answered!
curious....have you had engine experience in the past?
A little here and there. This is my trial by fire. Learning as much as I can from the as many sources as fast as I can
The lifters pump the oil up. The cany brake.
That probably was a incorrectly adjusted tappet or bad lefters
Keep watching...
Man I hate to be negative, just hate to see you throw a bunch of time and money at a bigger issue.
There is all that metal from the wiped cam lobes and lifters that has went through the engine.
I've swapped a bad cam on a 454 yrs ago, I even went as far as to left the engine and drop the pan to clean it as good as can be done, and replaced the oil pump.
It made it about 50 hours use and ran good, but just started loosing oil pressure.
Ended up pulling the engine for a full rebuild and all the rod bearings were shot from the metal debris. Also the piston skirts were embedded with metal and the bores had bad vertical scouring.
This engine had just one bad lobe and lifter, the rest weren't that bad.
Again not wanting to be negative, just be careful getting in to deep with this and patching it. May want to shop for a reman longblock.
I agree with those that say to pull it and have it "gone through." Otherwise, whatever new parts you are putting in it now could be wasted $$. Not to mention time. With what I have seen you do so far, you can get it out and tear it down. Then, take it to a machine shop. Might be best to have them assemble it. (They may prefer you don't tear it down.) That said, I have an airboat project on my channel where people are telling me what I am telling you, and I am NOT rebuilding. My defense though is that I did not find metal or damage. Not sure if they are the same motor, but Summit Racing has "long blocks" for Marine 454 for just over $3K. I assume the machine shop way is cheaper though.
Your getting greasy now eh? Surprise surprise 😝. Cam should be mic’d. What about the other bank ya think? Timing is easy enough....engine will have reference point for TDC and so should the cam wheel. Just make sure you mark everything before you pull it....oh wait you are likely done by now lol. Oh....and what the H were you thinking???? You NEVER throw out stuff that comes in the spare parts pile 🙄. Oh well...live and learn. Looking forward to seeing the progress and positive result.
Sounds like she’s a keeper
Take some advice and sell those two 454 to a hit rodder and find a couple of 6cylinders Cummings diesel engine, made before the common rail type, that came in earlier model 2500 Dodge pickups.
Thanks, but no thanks. I really enjoy having this boat be as powerful as it was intended to be. It was engineered to be a beast and a beast she shall be. Even though that comes with a lot of sacrifices, this level of peak original power is what I love about this power train.
I'm betting those lifters (the three short ones) are not the right ones. Someone rigged or used lifters that were for another engine.
That is very possible either way they messed up the camshaft and its gotta go now.
A lifter has to be exact on specs,it either works or it doesn't,there is no in between.
You have a bad exhaust manifold that is allowing water in that particular cylinder. Water doesn’t compress. You should never see rust in the exhaust manifold ports.
True... But i hate it lol
This is an awesome channel man keep it up!
You can do it!
#1chevy two engines two problems . If you rebuild one the other is weaker . #2 chevy parts are the cheapest to buy and the most available . High torque cams for industrial use are pretty much the same as for boat use and because they aren't labeled marine use they are cheaper . Check into rock crawler engine builds and you might find what you need at a much lower cost . Then again i bet that 454 is stock truck engine with marine cooling bolted on . But you need both to run with in 80% of each other .
Needs a new camshaft
One more item could easily be the Cam---might be damaged!! Every partb is connected to anoher part!?---------Mikey