Something I've started doing with Ark Nova to teach my friends is to play it as a Co-op. Basically we just play with the solo cube tracker and move a cube each time everyone takes their turn. We win collectively if everyone crosses their appeal and conservation by the end of the game. To make it co-operative I say players can give up to one card, 5 money, and an X token to another player during their turn. This allows me boost them when they inevitably run out useful actions to take before the break due to lack of planning action sequences. By making it Co-op I find it easier to teach because I don't need to explain every rule and icon up front and instead I can explain as we go. I also find it more enjoyable for everyone because it's still a challenge for me and no one feels like they're getting blown out of the water.
Great list idea and great list itself! As a primarily solo gamer, I think a lot of my favourites fall into this category. It's a game I love but it's also probably so heavy and complex that teaching it is a chore. And even if I can successfully teach it, I'm also so experienced at it because of my solo games that it's not competitive. And that just isn't fun for me. Some of those include: Wayfarers of the South Tigris (20+ plays, only one multiplayer) and Voidfall (18 solo plays).
I don't mind playing with newbies. I rather enjoy watching as they figure things out. And it's a great feeling when you see them experience how much joy this hobby offers.
I don't think the video is about being bothered by playing with noobs. It's about what's best for everyone at the table. Time is limited and each situation is different. I have limited gaming time, as a result, I just don't play euros with new players.
I agree with donna. To each their own on this topic. Personally, I love teaching new games that I love to others. And yea, that feeling when they get it is so cool. What some find ‘natural’ is 100% subjective. I can’t say there’s a single game I wouldn’t teach and play with a new player. That’s natural for me. 🤗
Hah, Spirit Island was quite the experience in the earliest days of my renewed foray into the board gaming hobby ~ 2 years ago. As a noob myself (1 solo game under my belt), I decided to bring it to my local club and teach it to 3 other noobs for a 4-player experience. One of the players not playing with us that night noticed what I was about to do, and foreshadowed the boldness of my undertaking during setup. Yeah, that was the only club session that has ever kept four of us there until 1am (we started at 7pm!) on a work night. At least we won! I've never brought it to the club again (I prefer it solo).
It's perfectly fair to have a different mindset when playing v teaching. I'm a noob, and would hate to be taught as part of someone else's play... if you get what I mean. Teaching should be separate to 'playing'.
Excellent point - not least because they have two different aims. Teaching - the aim is to get the new player familiar then comfortable with how to play the game; playing - the aim is to win, or at least have fun trying to win. And those things are pretty much mutually exclusive. *I* cannot easily play to win if I am also teaching - firstly, it doesn't seem right, and second part of my brain is occupied with the teach and checking the new player is getting everything right, and that leaves a lot less capacity for my own clever stuff. It irks me a little that one of my regular opponents hates learning games, but loves wining, and will immediately chalk it up to his "superior play" when he wins what was acknowledged to be a "learning game" at the start, or when he loses that first game then complains that he lost because he didn't fully understand all of the rules when we started playing!
A couple months ago, I had an encounter that shook most of my concepts about teaching, learning and the relevance of previous play experience in relation to board games. I had larger group of family and adjacents over at my house for an event. One of my table in game room had Voidfall set up. A guy, in his early 60s, whom I have met for the first time that day, was interested in what the game was and so I invited him to one of my group's board game nights later that week. It turned out he hasn't played a single board game or video game in decades and I was unsure if Voidfall wouldn't be a disasterously bad choice for a board game introduction. But we gave it a shot. It went rather surprisingly, in an unexpected great way. He had no problem of picking up the game rules and concepts and he had a blast playing it with us. Along the play I inquired several times on possible confusions or just the complexity but there wasn't anything the player aids couldn't assist with. My group was flabbergasted by the whole thing. Was this gentleman just extremely gifted or was simply the perfect game for him or might there be something else at play? Long story short. What I believe to have seen and learned with this encounter is simply this: The tons of games I have learned and played over the years might actually make it more difficult to learn new and complex games for me. There are just so much references in my memory that my brain constantly looks for similarities or jumps, subconsciously, to conclusions on mechanics and concepts. This might probably also diminishes the quality of my teaching to a degree, something I still need to do some proper evaluation on.
I know what you mean about your brain being "used" to stuff that you try to find. I find myself going "oh so like X" when I'm being taught only to then either be told "no", "yes", or "what's that game?"
Totally agree about Spirit Island. I bought Horizons of Spirit Island in July and played my first game solo last week. I can’t imagine learning it in front of other people. To use Push and Gather effectively you have to know the round sequence like the back of your hand. I hear the Horizons spirits are easier, but the mud creature was really tough to learn as I had to use a bit of every tactic to defeat the invaders. Arkham Horror LCG depends on the noob’s personality. If they let us play thematically it could go well. If they insist on mastering all of the rules and worry about every detail, it’ll be impossible to enjoy.
Nice. You will love this game solo. It's a very satisfying game. The ability to up the difficulty is what makes this game so very good. You can challenge yourself and get reckless by upping the challenge with scenarios. Just learning how a Spirit works is a whole new game. A true masterpiece.
Choco Otter in Horizons is one of my favorites. preventing builds is pretty strong. once you get a grip on push/pull and build/ravage timings the game gets much easier. Thunderspeaker in the base box is a fantastic spirit for learning those things. once you "get" that spirit you basically level up in SI and youre off and running
Why don’t you replace the top 10 train games with a top 10 route/network building games ? That could be interesting as well and would include a larger pool of games.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Yeah I've been looking for network games besides Brass Birmingham and Ticket to Ride...I've heard of Bus and On the Underground but that's about it.
Totally agree on The Crew and Spirit Island especially. The Crew literally doesn't even work if someone is brand new (unfortunately), plus it's always clear that they're the one who messed up so they feel terrible. With Spirit Island, the game just takes SO LONG when playing with new players, I make my decisions and then just sit there for 10 minutes while they try and figure out what to do. I understand, we were all there once, but man it's rough. Especially because then you are stuck playing on a very low difficulty level so all the puzzle is completely removed. What I've found works is either I play 2 spirits or I apply the max difficulty rules to just my player boards. Even playing a full support spirit with new players and buffing them to high heaven sounds fun until you realize that giving them more power cards or energy just makes their decision space larger and then it takes longer for them to decide what to do. There are also so many rules errors with new players in SI that I just have to completely ignore them (playing slow powers fast, playing more powers than they are allowed, having powers target multiple lands when they aren't supposed to, forgetting entire invader phases, etc). The only way to not bog down the game even more is to literally just ignore the rules errors haha. To me the biggest game that falls under this category is Root. It is one of my top 3 games of all time but at this point I don't think I'll ever teach it to another new player ever again unless they are totally okay with getting destroyed the first 5 times they play. There has just been way too much "stop going into all the rules, we'll just figure it out as we play" that then lead into "that's unfair, I didn't know you could do THAT". I'm happy just playing with people on discord and with my group that already knows how to play and how all the factions interact.
Yeah Spirit Island just doesn't suit brand new players - a shame , but I do play it 90% solo and 10% multiplayer with those who know the game, so it says it all.
I'm someone who teaches games all the time, since there's always something new that got. Either something I bought or arrived from kickstarter etc. While the group I often play with aren't actual newbies, they sometimes have newbie tendencies. Which is understandable if I'm bringing a new game. So before I teach them a game, I play with just one friend (who's a very seasoned gamer) to test the game and how I can teach it with others. However, one of my plays with four other players at a convention was such an excruciating experience that I swore off, never to do that ever again! The game was Earth. Which is a game I fell in love with so much that I got my own copy after I was taught it. I foolishly thought after teaching them the Quacks of Quedlinburg which went very smoothly. Oh gods was I wrong! The game took almost four hours... I do consider myself being a decent teacher of games. I also have a burning passion for games. Before I get a new game, I watch playthroughs/how to play videos and I research as much as possible. But I think its unfair to ask for this when it comes for those I teach to do the same.
Great video! You mentioned some of my absolute favourites. I laughed at Hedgemony since, I'm off to play it for the first time today - and the chap teaching me, actually gave me the rules to learn before hand!! As for Spirit Island -- totally agree with you, complex and many moving parts since it's so strategic. However, interestingly -- I personally really REALLY enjoy teaching it to new players. I think because its my favourite game and I just want as many people as I can, playing it and loving it. So I get a thrill out of teaching it :) Great vids Luke...thanks!
I taught my kids trick taking in like 5-10 minutes by giving them the basics then playing a hand of cards and telling them they want to win as many tricks as they can. Then I deal another hand and do the same thing, but to win as few tricks as possible. By that point they start to have a good understanding of the rules and choices.
I concur on 7 Wonders. It was my only my second modern board game play and had a really bad experience. Its then been a challenge with noobies and expansions.
The moment I saw the video title I instantly thought of Scythe, so I totally agree on this one. In a game with new players you somehow need all your attention for checking if they got the rules right - especially with riverwalk. And I absolutely hate to always be the one bursting bubbles like "nah, I'm sorry, but you are not allowed to do that"
Federation and a Feast for Odin came to mind. I understand your frustration with trick taking games, I grew up in a household similar to you where playing cards was the normal. Especially when we would go on holidays. I also find games like Sail I don’t like playing with anyone but my wife because we have developed our own meta and way to play 🤣. Great topic to talk about and also good content as usual keep up the good work!
I actually found Caverna was super easy to teach to my 12 yr old. Just explained spots as they opened up. Didn’t worry about feeding, and didn’t explain rooms. That helped. Jumped in to that in our next game. Now… feast for Odin is a different story
I’ve taught scythe many times and have always had pleasant experiences with new people. Granted, I have my teach down to a science. You could DEFINITELY get stuck in a quagmire lol. Also, for a game with a level of “scripted” moves, it is fun to see crazy decisions with new people!
We have to be in the right frame of mind and mood to show and teach new games to newbies. We also do a learning game with only a couple of rounds and then play a real game as we call it. That way it can be less stressful to teach but also to the player/s to ask questions or interrupt in the learning game. No one’s a winner or loser in a learning game.
I felt so bad pulling out the crew with my wife and some other family members. We had just wrapped up a game of Azul, it wasnt that late, so I pulled it out (I had just learned it with my "gaming friends group" and we loved it. Everyone kept teying to play Uno with the cards, and explaining the idea of the rockets being a "trump suit" was terrible.
I'd say the thing also with Spirit Island (plus some others) is that in the first game a newbie is only going to be glimpsing the possibilities of the game even by the end. It's only going to shine for them in game 2 or 3 and so it's not like that teaching game will be a high moment which in combination with the rules complexity...just makes it unpleasant all around. Love the game. Terribly hard to teach except to dedicated friends.
YES!!! I've played The Crew with a player unfamiliar with trick-taking. He played lots of other board games. First or second mission, I can't quite remember. We played something like 5 or 7 rounds. When he finally figured out what to play, and I just stopped. Gawked. We should have won that in 2 plays. It was just bizarre.
Probably just due to people 'playing cards' less. All the games of whist with my grandparents have installed the concept into my brain. I'm not sure people do that in the same way now.
I think this should be 'Top ten games to get Luke to teach you, if you've never played them before ' 😉 😀. I disagree about 7 wonders, as I've not had any problems teaching that one. Definitely agree about Ark Nova and Spirit Island. I find it difficult to teach the Garphill games like Wayfarers and Scholars to new folks, due to all the different things you can do and all the iconography.
100% Scythe... Ive been in a 7 player game where everyone knew what was going on, and it was awesome. I've been in a 4 player where 2 people had no idea and it went on for forever.
I really enjoyed this video, I don't really disagree with anything Luke said. I do think there's room to say, there are times I'd really rather play the game as it's meant to be played, not play it like it's a first time or a teaching game. That being said, it seemed like there were two lines of logic behind why Luke said why he didn't want to play with new players (depending on the game), both of which I believe are valid.. Game length (I believe Arnak was a great example) and balance (Root and Hegemony). Unfortunately, balance can't really be fixed without playing the game. However, the length of a game is in a new players control. It would do us all a lot of good if for our first games we played fast and loose. Nothing grinds a game to a halt quicker than a new player attempting to min/max turns when they don't fully understand the game well enough to have a strategy. At least allow your first game to be a fast learning game, don't drag it out for the person, or people, teaching you.
OMG everything you said. I played a three player game once with somebody teaching the game CV, which should take a half hour to 45 minutes as it's an old classic, not too complex, and the other learner took so long on his turns that the game took an hour and a half. Just take some cards and play them and see what happens. You don't have to master the strategy right away.
Lost Ruins is a piece of cake to teach, and I'm always happy to play it with new players as whatever else they do, they are unlikely to destroy anyone else's game in the process. That said, I haven't played the expansion content very often (with new players *or* with experienced hands!). Ditto for Scythe and Ark Nova. The new players are not going to win, but the teaches aren't hard and they cannot spoil the game. However, I *hate* teaching some games - chiefly the asymmetric ones (Root, Hegemony, Vast etc), and I ran a mile from Alchemists because there was no way in hell I was prepared to teach THAT. My list would include Puerto Rico as a game to avoid playing with new players as they really can screw things up for others (usually by making moves that hand the game to another player, or wrecks their game altogether). Ditto Food Chain Magnate, Race For The Galaxy, and several others.
Alchemists is a messy game to get across for sure. And even though Arnak isn't the most arduous game in the list, you said it yourself, you haven't played the expansion content very often. So when you next teach the game, try throwing it all in and see what happens.
@@TheBrokenMeeple I have; it worked fine. "Very often" does not mean "never"; it's just that I play base Arnak much more (because that's all BGA has). But I would trow the new players one of the more straightforward roles - usually the Captain or Baroness - to reduce the rules overhead/exceptions to the main rules.
I’ve taught Hegemony, Scythe, Ark Nova, and Spirit Island to new players many times. For Spirit Island I tend to just manage the invader phase directly myself if needed (takes some of the burden off), and let others know when they need to make a decision e.g. Blight, Event, or Fear cards, and also briefly explain what’s happening on each island, mostly by exceptions e.g. why an explorer wasn’t placed due to Isolate or no adjacent to Town/City/Ocean. I’ve played quite a few 5-6 player games where everyone but myself is new, and will throw in at least a level zero adversary so the escalation stages trigger (which I also manage if needed).
The invader phase is the least of the newbies concerns, but yes not teaching that in full is needed, problem is, the noobs don't understand the rammifications of their actions. Jeez, I wouldn't play Spirit Island with 5-6 players with veterans all inclusive, some games weren't meant for 5+ players.............actually many games aren't meant for 5+ players!
@@TheBrokenMeeple honestly if you’re reminding people about the phases throughout e.g. when to play fast/slow powers, it’s easy to manage new players. Their moves may not be optimal sure, but they can handle the concept (if not, I’d argue they should not play heavy games at all). Growth phase is generally harder for new players especially when drawing 4 new cards to choose from (growth is also the longest part when you’re playing 6 spirits solo). After a few thousand games you resolve the invader phase extremely quickly. 🤣
One that immediately came to my mind was Twilight Struggle. You need to know all the cards intimately to play this well and that requires a few gameplays.
sometimes I dont get you Luke.. you love boardgames, but want experiencing them to end as fast as possible. I love spending a whole day playing a game.
It's about time efficiency. You can have too much of a good thing. Or a good thing can outstay its welcome. I love movies but there is such a thing as too long frequently in those cases.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Yeah, but thats kind of only true if you play board games one time (like most movies are watched once), but if you are playing same board game 5 times in one night, how is that different than playing one game all night? Different people like different things, for me, I like playing the game, the end is probably the worst part. Start is exciting, and middle while you are building up your engine or whatever is the best, so I want that part to last as long as possible.
It is always a dilemma for me, what games should we play when 6 of us are getting together about 4 times a year . I always try to introduce some new games, complex and not so much games, but ending up playing 80 days around the world or similar party like games......
I once sat down to a 4-player Spirit Island table, and it turned out the other three were first timers and I'd be teaching. They played Horizon spirits, no events, took 3 hours.
Those two are not straightforward games - heavy gamers are always skewed to this kind of thing, if they are straightforward that makes stuff like the Garphill series basically a kids game.
Hey dude, according to this list we should be besties😂 I haven't played Caverna yet, however I have played Agricola so I imagine the differences aren't that bad. The rest of the list I know in my sleep. I'd probably throw in Root and Terra Mystica/Age of Innovation/Gaia Project somewhere, or as an honorable mention. Root requires the teacher to know every little rule for all factions and probably needs to police them through the first game to make sure the new players remember them,. While TM/AoI/GP is just a lot of iconography for new players to grasp. For the most part I'm fine with teaching any game to 1 or 2 new players, the real agony begins when I have to teach 3 or more. That being said if there is somebody I know that struggles with a lot of rules I'm not even going near Spirit Island, Ark Nova, Hegemony or GWT NZ with them. I don't mind the teach itself but the game will take forever and I'll just sit at my side of the table by the mid game thinking how increasingly appealing a game of russian roulette is.
Most of the time it is always going to be the noon has no chance of winning. Scythe is a great example even with 3-5 games under their belt, their chance of erring is extremely low. Puerto Rico , another where a noob won’t win. I don’t mind teaching or playing, but if it is one new player vs people who have played a lot, they will get crushed. Me personally, I don’t mind if I’m the noob though. I expect to lose, but I want to learn!
Puerto Rico feels like it is one that experienced players can take advantage of a new player who does things that help the next player in turn. Everyone wants their turn to be after the new player.
And this is the reason I really have negativ feelings about that game. I went as a rookie into a pretty veteranish play-group, they teached me spirit island as one of my first games and it is my favorite since then. But Puerto Rico was an absolute nightmare, because I was sitting between the absolut pro players who are playing every kind of expert-boardgames for atleast 15 years, and they crushed me in this game, capitalizing so hard on my mistakes, even on a level where the guy before me was absolutely pissed at me for my mistakes, because the guy after me was exploiting my decisions so hard, that I was the kingmaker without having any intention to be so.. So this one is a big nope for rookies when playing with competetive veterans.
Do you think kanban ev is something easier to teach? I'm planning to buy it one day, but as it's my first Lacerda game I'm a bit worried about what other people say on its conplexity.
Ark Nova and Spirit Island were the first I thought of, too. Spirit Island is such a slog with new players and isn't fun for anyone involved imo, too overwhelming for the new player and too boring for an experienced player on low difficulties and super difficult not to quarterback. As you said can also go on forever. I've gone back and forth as to whether Caverna of A Feast for Odin is harder to teach. I think maybe AFFO. But Caverna was my favorite game for a while and I taught it a lot, I had the teach down to a science. It was still tedious with all the niche rules/corner cases, just explaining the animal husbandry rules and how there are 5 animals that all follow a set of rules except each animal has at least one special rule/exception as well, and oh except cows whose special rule is they don't have a special rule. With all the buildings I usually would tell players to take a pic of the available buildings and look it over when it wasn't their turn, but also I'd recommend buildings to them as the game went on based on what they were doing and/or ask them what they were looking to do and point out a few that might be useful for them, which helped a little. The Crew is a good one. Frustrating experience when there's a large gap in player skill/knowledge. Feels extra bad to realize on the last trick you can't win then learn you had already lost by the 1st or 2nd trick because of what the new/inexperienced player did. Also really difficult not to table talk to help newer players since without doing so it's probably a really poor and stressful experience for them.
Doesn’t even have to specifically be capped at 2 players, me and my wife absolutely love Ark Nova, Agricola and Brass Birmingham and would like some of the same calibre
I would have had Root at number 1. Out of the last 10 games of Root, I felt like I only really *played* 1 of them. The rest I was teaching or policing rules the whole time.
I found Decoder is quite tricky to teach. And I wish someone would teach me Deep Rock Galactic because I always feel like I miss something when I play it
@@TheBrokenMeeple But you have to try everything once, so it's helpful when you try with people who know or what they're doing or it's just the blind leading the blind. Admittedly, both scenarios will probably end up with "we never want to play this again"
I must say, I don't agree with 7 Wonders. That game is the ideal gateway game beyond anything simplistic. I've used this multiple times with a group of people (various ages) open to trying something beyond Clue. All the other ones, I agree with. I probably would have added Terraforming Mars. It isn't crazy hard, but it is also much longer than a newbie would be expecting.
i dont even want to teach myself games let alone someone else. being the teacher in my house i get what youre saying completely. its just nice to play a favorite game with someone who already knows how. i am not teaching Voidfall ever. NEVER. no interest in that at all. im happy with solo haha. Mage Knight. again, ill just play it solo.
Sup Luke. I will suggest you make an experiment: stop putting all the skits inside your videos. Intro, video, outro with links. I watch your content to hear what you thought about a game, not to see snippets of films and animations, and you are entertaining enough. I just think they're a lot of time input that's unnecessary. I get they're enjoyable, and a fun touch, but in my mind, they're not worth the tonne of extra editing work, and it would have very little to no impact on my enjoyment of the content, and if it allows you to put more content out... then that's a win for everyone. Anyway, great stuff as usual
To be honest, because I have a library of them now, they are not as time intensive as doing photos and cutting mistakes/coughs, etc from the time line.
I can’t believe that anyone would be so selfish as to sit down with three experienced players and expect to be taught any of these fairly heavy games and also expect to slow the gameplay down and ruin the experience for the other players. If I am asked to play any game of this weight I will spend a lot of my own time getting across rules via rules and videos (any yes I often turn to the broken Meeple) So at least I’m coming to the table somewhat prepared.
They don't have to for every heavy game but yeah when I stipulate it in Hegemony and then they just make excuses by the time they get there, that's low
Very nice topic, really enjoy it for 45 min, this could be a good podcast one. I agree is so annoying when you tell them, watch this video, is 20 min, 15 min, you have a week to do it, doesn´t take that long, nop, they don´t do it, they are to "busy" can´t spare any min, so now explain it and make it quick because they don´t like to take to long on the rules before playing.
Not all Noobs are the same. I love playing with most noobs. Some adult noobs make my 7 year old look like Einstein. Its embarrassing for everyone witnessing (asking the same question 15 times a game for an action they have already done several time, every time they try a new game) - in these situations chess or other simple abstract games it is - like Azul. For most noobs in general, I would stay away from games of the Pax Ren ilk considering the obtuse angles to successful strategy.
Non-gamers and new gamers have nothing in common with "first time for that game" players. I agree with Luke here: none of these games should be played with new or non gamers. By doing so, you may actually turn them off to gaming as it won't be enjoyable...for anyone involved.
@@SmackMule I wouldn't teach a lot of these games to brand new gamers or relatively new gamers, but it seems like Luke doesn't want to play them with players who don't know the game already either...
I think you misunderstand (hence I had to do that massive disclaimer at the start). The idea is that players "new to that game" are ones I'd prefer (not always) to play without for the reasons listed in the disclaimer. Obviously I'm not going to show Hegemony to a player brand new to gaming. But if you have 3 players who know the game inside out, do you want to teach all those rules from scratch to ANYONE who hasn't played it before, or would you prefer to play the 3 player game with veterans?
I love, love, love, Luke's pronunskiations. Keinda is Keiender. Other Luke-isms: "done and dusted", "as all get-out", "Mage Knight and Brass are the pinnacle of game design."
Basically my mate is very good at getting people moving. He'll check whose turn it is, assist if necessary and keep people on their toes. Essentially the game never bogs down on one persons turn nor do we get distracted. It's awesome!
Crew at #2 is mental. You undermined your whole rant when you said yourself at the end: "most people get it after a round or two and rounds take five minutes" When you say noobs are you thinking of meetup randoms? To be fair even uno would be a frustrating nightmare with some of the characters that go to my city's meet up.
Oh wow. I thought this Video might be fun to watch but all i see ans hear is "i am so intelligent and others arent" and Lack of tolerance. I really would not want to play ANYthing with you. Playing games to me is a social event to have fun with ither people opposed to finish as many games in the shortest time possible. Maybe that just was a Bad pick of your Videos but... maybe you want to work on your patience
I think clearly you didn't watch any of the introduction to this video whatsoever otherwise you would have understood what the context was as everyone else here has and not made such a wrong interpretation.
Something I've started doing with Ark Nova to teach my friends is to play it as a Co-op. Basically we just play with the solo cube tracker and move a cube each time everyone takes their turn. We win collectively if everyone crosses their appeal and conservation by the end of the game. To make it co-operative I say players can give up to one card, 5 money, and an X token to another player during their turn. This allows me boost them when they inevitably run out useful actions to take before the break due to lack of planning action sequences.
By making it Co-op I find it easier to teach because I don't need to explain every rule and icon up front and instead I can explain as we go. I also find it more enjoyable for everyone because it's still a challenge for me and no one feels like they're getting blown out of the water.
That’s interesting, I’ll give it a try!
That's a unique way of doing it, though you've basically created your own game there!
Great list idea and great list itself! As a primarily solo gamer, I think a lot of my favourites fall into this category. It's a game I love but it's also probably so heavy and complex that teaching it is a chore. And even if I can successfully teach it, I'm also so experienced at it because of my solo games that it's not competitive. And that just isn't fun for me. Some of those include: Wayfarers of the South Tigris (20+ plays, only one multiplayer) and Voidfall (18 solo plays).
Teaching Voidfall would give me brain damage.
I don't mind playing with newbies. I rather enjoy watching as they figure things out. And it's a great feeling when you see them experience how much joy this hobby offers.
There are 1000's of games however to get that feeling with. It's only natural to have some games you can leave out of the equation.
I don't think the video is about being bothered by playing with noobs. It's about what's best for everyone at the table. Time is limited and each situation is different. I have limited gaming time, as a result, I just don't play euros with new players.
I agree with donna. To each their own on this topic. Personally, I love teaching new games that I love to others. And yea, that feeling when they get it is so cool. What some find ‘natural’ is 100% subjective. I can’t say there’s a single game I wouldn’t teach and play with a new player. That’s natural for me. 🤗
Hah, Spirit Island was quite the experience in the earliest days of my renewed foray into the board gaming hobby ~ 2 years ago. As a noob myself (1 solo game under my belt), I decided to bring it to my local club and teach it to 3 other noobs for a 4-player experience. One of the players not playing with us that night noticed what I was about to do, and foreshadowed the boldness of my undertaking during setup. Yeah, that was the only club session that has ever kept four of us there until 1am (we started at 7pm!) on a work night. At least we won! I've never brought it to the club again (I prefer it solo).
It's perfectly fair to have a different mindset when playing v teaching. I'm a noob, and would hate to be taught as part of someone else's play... if you get what I mean. Teaching should be separate to 'playing'.
Excellent point - not least because they have two different aims. Teaching - the aim is to get the new player familiar then comfortable with how to play the game; playing - the aim is to win, or at least have fun trying to win.
And those things are pretty much mutually exclusive. *I* cannot easily play to win if I am also teaching - firstly, it doesn't seem right, and second part of my brain is occupied with the teach and checking the new player is getting everything right, and that leaves a lot less capacity for my own clever stuff.
It irks me a little that one of my regular opponents hates learning games, but loves wining, and will immediately chalk it up to his "superior play" when he wins what was acknowledged to be a "learning game" at the start, or when he loses that first game then complains that he lost because he didn't fully understand all of the rules when we started playing!
A couple months ago, I had an encounter that shook most of my concepts about teaching, learning and the relevance of previous play experience in relation to board games.
I had larger group of family and adjacents over at my house for an event. One of my table in game room had Voidfall set up. A guy, in his early 60s, whom I have met for the first time that day, was interested in what the game was and so I invited him to one of my group's board game nights later that week.
It turned out he hasn't played a single board game or video game in decades and I was unsure if Voidfall wouldn't be a disasterously bad choice for a board game introduction. But we gave it a shot.
It went rather surprisingly, in an unexpected great way. He had no problem of picking up the game rules and concepts and he had a blast playing it with us. Along the play I inquired several times on possible confusions or just the complexity but there wasn't anything the player aids couldn't assist with. My group was flabbergasted by the whole thing. Was this gentleman just extremely gifted or was simply the perfect game for him or might there be something else at play?
Long story short. What I believe to have seen and learned with this encounter is simply this: The tons of games I have learned and played over the years might actually make it more difficult to learn new and complex games for me. There are just so much references in my memory that my brain constantly looks for similarities or jumps, subconsciously, to conclusions on mechanics and concepts.
This might probably also diminishes the quality of my teaching to a degree, something I still need to do some proper evaluation on.
I know what you mean about your brain being "used" to stuff that you try to find. I find myself going "oh so like X" when I'm being taught only to then either be told "no", "yes", or "what's that game?"
Totally agree about Spirit Island. I bought Horizons of Spirit Island in July and played my first game solo last week. I can’t imagine learning it in front of other people. To use Push and Gather effectively you have to know the round sequence like the back of your hand. I hear the Horizons spirits are easier, but the mud creature was really tough to learn as I had to use a bit of every tactic to defeat the invaders.
Arkham Horror LCG depends on the noob’s personality. If they let us play thematically it could go well. If they insist on mastering all of the rules and worry about every detail, it’ll be impossible to enjoy.
Nice. You will love this game solo. It's a very satisfying game. The ability to up the difficulty is what makes this game so very good. You can challenge yourself and get reckless by upping the challenge with scenarios. Just learning how a Spirit works is a whole new game. A true masterpiece.
It certainly seems like a great game. The only issue that I’m not always up for that level of crunch.
Choco Otter in Horizons is one of my favorites. preventing builds is pretty strong. once you get a grip on push/pull and build/ravage timings the game gets much easier. Thunderspeaker in the base box is a fantastic spirit for learning those things. once you "get" that spirit you basically level up in SI and youre off and running
Why don’t you replace the top 10 train games with a top 10 route/network building games ? That could be interesting as well and would include a larger pool of games.
It's an idea 👍
@@TheBrokenMeeple Yeah I've been looking for network games besides Brass Birmingham and Ticket to Ride...I've heard of Bus and On the Underground but that's about it.
Totally agree on The Crew and Spirit Island especially. The Crew literally doesn't even work if someone is brand new (unfortunately), plus it's always clear that they're the one who messed up so they feel terrible.
With Spirit Island, the game just takes SO LONG when playing with new players, I make my decisions and then just sit there for 10 minutes while they try and figure out what to do. I understand, we were all there once, but man it's rough. Especially because then you are stuck playing on a very low difficulty level so all the puzzle is completely removed. What I've found works is either I play 2 spirits or I apply the max difficulty rules to just my player boards. Even playing a full support spirit with new players and buffing them to high heaven sounds fun until you realize that giving them more power cards or energy just makes their decision space larger and then it takes longer for them to decide what to do.
There are also so many rules errors with new players in SI that I just have to completely ignore them (playing slow powers fast, playing more powers than they are allowed, having powers target multiple lands when they aren't supposed to, forgetting entire invader phases, etc). The only way to not bog down the game even more is to literally just ignore the rules errors haha.
To me the biggest game that falls under this category is Root. It is one of my top 3 games of all time but at this point I don't think I'll ever teach it to another new player ever again unless they are totally okay with getting destroyed the first 5 times they play. There has just been way too much "stop going into all the rules, we'll just figure it out as we play" that then lead into "that's unfair, I didn't know you could do THAT". I'm happy just playing with people on discord and with my group that already knows how to play and how all the factions interact.
Yeah Spirit Island just doesn't suit brand new players - a shame , but I do play it 90% solo and 10% multiplayer with those who know the game, so it says it all.
I'm someone who teaches games all the time, since there's always something new that got. Either something I bought or arrived from kickstarter etc.
While the group I often play with aren't actual newbies, they sometimes have newbie tendencies. Which is understandable if I'm bringing a new game. So before I teach them a game, I play with just one friend (who's a very seasoned gamer) to test the game and how I can teach it with others.
However, one of my plays with four other players at a convention was such an excruciating experience that I swore off, never to do that ever again! The game was Earth. Which is a game I fell in love with so much that I got my own copy after I was taught it.
I foolishly thought after teaching them the Quacks of Quedlinburg which went very smoothly. Oh gods was I wrong! The game took almost four hours...
I do consider myself being a decent teacher of games. I also have a burning passion for games. Before I get a new game, I watch playthroughs/how to play videos and I research as much as possible. But I think its unfair to ask for this when it comes for those I teach to do the same.
Great video! You mentioned some of my absolute favourites. I laughed at Hedgemony since, I'm off to play it for the first time today - and the chap teaching me, actually gave me the rules to learn before hand!! As for Spirit Island -- totally agree with you, complex and many moving parts since it's so strategic. However, interestingly -- I personally really REALLY enjoy teaching it to new players. I think because its my favourite game and I just want as many people as I can, playing it and loving it. So I get a thrill out of teaching it :) Great vids Luke...thanks!
Hegemony requires a rules learn in advance, any time I've taught from scratch it hurts.
I taught my kids trick taking in like 5-10 minutes by giving them the basics then playing a hand of cards and telling them they want to win as many tricks as they can. Then I deal another hand and do the same thing, but to win as few tricks as possible. By that point they start to have a good understanding of the rules and choices.
I concur on 7 Wonders. It was my only my second modern board game play and had a really bad experience. Its then been a challenge with noobies and expansions.
Great video Luke. Totally agree with Hegemony, so glad me and my friends learned the rules to Hegemony before we played with you.
It would have been A LOT harder otherwise! But that went nicely!
The moment I saw the video title I instantly thought of Scythe, so I totally agree on this one. In a game with new players you somehow need all your attention for checking if they got the rules right - especially with riverwalk. And I absolutely hate to always be the one bursting bubbles like "nah, I'm sorry, but you are not allowed to do that"
Federation and a Feast for Odin came to mind. I understand your frustration with trick taking games, I grew up in a household similar to you where playing cards was the normal. Especially when we would go on holidays. I also find games like Sail I don’t like playing with anyone but my wife because we have developed our own meta and way to play 🤣. Great topic to talk about and also good content as usual keep up the good work!
Ha ha thanks!
I actually found Caverna was super easy to teach to my 12 yr old. Just explained spots as they opened up. Didn’t worry about feeding, and didn’t explain rooms. That helped. Jumped in to that in our next game. Now… feast for Odin is a different story
I think your 12 year old is a unique case!
I’ve taught scythe many times and have always had pleasant experiences with new people. Granted, I have my teach down to a science. You could DEFINITELY get stuck in a quagmire lol. Also, for a game with a level of “scripted” moves, it is fun to see crazy decisions with new people!
We have to be in the right frame of mind and mood to show and teach new games to newbies. We also do a learning game with only a couple of rounds and then play a real game as we call it. That way it can be less stressful to teach but also to the player/s to ask questions or interrupt in the learning game. No one’s a winner or loser in a learning game.
You know what's fun? Getting a game of Twilight Imperium going with several veterans and 1 noob. Some people will start twitching.
Ha ha oooooooo similar to Scythe with 7 with 1 noob, I can imagine!
Great video! Would be nice to have a video from the opposite side. 10 games best played with noobs as you mention a few :)
Hmmm that would probably be ten games I'd like to teach and I'm wondering if I did a video for that a while ago.
I felt so bad pulling out the crew with my wife and some other family members. We had just wrapped up a game of Azul, it wasnt that late, so I pulled it out (I had just learned it with my "gaming friends group" and we loved it. Everyone kept teying to play Uno with the cards, and explaining the idea of the rockets being a "trump suit" was terrible.
I'd say the thing also with Spirit Island (plus some others) is that in the first game a newbie is only going to be glimpsing the possibilities of the game even by the end. It's only going to shine for them in game 2 or 3 and so it's not like that teaching game will be a high moment which in combination with the rules complexity...just makes it unpleasant all around.
Love the game. Terribly hard to teach except to dedicated friends.
YES!!! I've played The Crew with a player unfamiliar with trick-taking. He played lots of other board games. First or second mission, I can't quite remember. We played something like 5 or 7 rounds. When he finally figured out what to play, and I just stopped. Gawked. We should have won that in 2 plays. It was just bizarre.
Thanks for sharing!!
Its interesting how trick taking games have become so old school. I brought up on trick taking card games in my youth. They are second nature to me.
Probably just due to people 'playing cards' less. All the games of whist with my grandparents have installed the concept into my brain. I'm not sure people do that in the same way now.
@@andrewdicker7272 I am totally with you.
"Turn angst" - a great description. :)
😁
I think this should be 'Top ten games to get Luke to teach you, if you've never played them before ' 😉 😀. I disagree about 7 wonders, as I've not had any problems teaching that one. Definitely agree about Ark Nova and Spirit Island. I find it difficult to teach the Garphill games like Wayfarers and Scholars to new folks, due to all the different things you can do and all the iconography.
Yeah they can be if they aren't used to it but I find hardcore gamers adapt.
100% Scythe... Ive been in a 7 player game where everyone knew what was going on, and it was awesome. I've been in a 4 player where 2 people had no idea and it went on for forever.
I really enjoyed this video, I don't really disagree with anything Luke said. I do think there's room to say, there are times I'd really rather play the game as it's meant to be played, not play it like it's a first time or a teaching game.
That being said, it seemed like there were two lines of logic behind why Luke said why he didn't want to play with new players (depending on the game), both of which I believe are valid.. Game length (I believe Arnak was a great example) and balance (Root and Hegemony).
Unfortunately, balance can't really be fixed without playing the game. However, the length of a game is in a new players control. It would do us all a lot of good if for our first games we played fast and loose. Nothing grinds a game to a halt quicker than a new player attempting to min/max turns when they don't fully understand the game well enough to have a strategy. At least allow your first game to be a fast learning game, don't drag it out for the person, or people, teaching you.
OMG everything you said. I played a three player game once with somebody teaching the game CV, which should take a half hour to 45 minutes as it's an old classic, not too complex, and the other learner took so long on his turns that the game took an hour and a half. Just take some cards and play them and see what happens. You don't have to master the strategy right away.
Lost Ruins is a piece of cake to teach, and I'm always happy to play it with new players as whatever else they do, they are unlikely to destroy anyone else's game in the process. That said, I haven't played the expansion content very often (with new players *or* with experienced hands!). Ditto for Scythe and Ark Nova. The new players are not going to win, but the teaches aren't hard and they cannot spoil the game.
However, I *hate* teaching some games - chiefly the asymmetric ones (Root, Hegemony, Vast etc), and I ran a mile from Alchemists because there was no way in hell I was prepared to teach THAT.
My list would include Puerto Rico as a game to avoid playing with new players as they really can screw things up for others (usually by making moves that hand the game to another player, or wrecks their game altogether). Ditto Food Chain Magnate, Race For The Galaxy, and several others.
Alchemists is a messy game to get across for sure. And even though Arnak isn't the most arduous game in the list, you said it yourself, you haven't played the expansion content very often. So when you next teach the game, try throwing it all in and see what happens.
@@TheBrokenMeeple I have; it worked fine. "Very often" does not mean "never"; it's just that I play base Arnak much more (because that's all BGA has).
But I would trow the new players one of the more straightforward roles - usually the Captain or Baroness - to reduce the rules overhead/exceptions to the main rules.
I’ve taught Hegemony, Scythe, Ark Nova, and Spirit Island to new players many times.
For Spirit Island I tend to just manage the invader phase directly myself if needed (takes some of the burden off), and let others know when they need to make a decision e.g. Blight, Event, or Fear cards, and also briefly explain what’s happening on each island, mostly by exceptions e.g. why an explorer wasn’t placed due to Isolate or no adjacent to Town/City/Ocean.
I’ve played quite a few 5-6 player games where everyone but myself is new, and will throw in at least a level zero adversary so the escalation stages trigger (which I also manage if needed).
The invader phase is the least of the newbies concerns, but yes not teaching that in full is needed, problem is, the noobs don't understand the rammifications of their actions.
Jeez, I wouldn't play Spirit Island with 5-6 players with veterans all inclusive, some games weren't meant for 5+ players.............actually many games aren't meant for 5+ players!
@@TheBrokenMeeple honestly if you’re reminding people about the phases throughout e.g. when to play fast/slow powers, it’s easy to manage new players. Their moves may not be optimal sure, but they can handle the concept (if not, I’d argue they should not play heavy games at all). Growth phase is generally harder for new players especially when drawing 4 new cards to choose from (growth is also the longest part when you’re playing 6 spirits solo). After a few thousand games you resolve the invader phase extremely quickly. 🤣
Was expecting Ark Nova to be #1, but I think Spirit Island is a fair choice!
One that immediately came to my mind was Twilight Struggle. You need to know all the cards intimately to play this well and that requires a few gameplays.
Oh god good choice!
This was a fun video, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
sometimes I dont get you Luke.. you love boardgames, but want experiencing them to end as fast as possible. I love spending a whole day playing a game.
It's about time efficiency. You can have too much of a good thing. Or a good thing can outstay its welcome.
I love movies but there is such a thing as too long frequently in those cases.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Yeah, but thats kind of only true if you play board games one time (like most movies are watched once), but if you are playing same board game 5 times in one night, how is that different than playing one game all night? Different people like different things, for me, I like playing the game, the end is probably the worst part. Start is exciting, and middle while you are building up your engine or whatever is the best, so I want that part to last as long as possible.
I made the mistake on Caverna on New Year’s Eve trying to teach and took sooooo long. People lost interest and it failed massively.
It is always a dilemma for me, what games should we play when 6 of us are getting together about 4 times a year . I always try to introduce some new games, complex and not so much games, but ending up playing 80 days around the world or similar party like games......
I once sat down to a 4-player Spirit Island table, and it turned out the other three were first timers and I'd be teaching. They played Horizon spirits, no events, took 3 hours.
3 hours is impressive but then you didn't use events.
Honestly, Caverna and Feast are pretty straightforward. Lacerda games, well that’s another story
Those two are not straightforward games - heavy gamers are always skewed to this kind of thing, if they are straightforward that makes stuff like the Garphill series basically a kids game.
Hey dude, according to this list we should be besties😂 I haven't played Caverna yet, however I have played Agricola so I imagine the differences aren't that bad. The rest of the list I know in my sleep. I'd probably throw in Root and Terra Mystica/Age of Innovation/Gaia Project somewhere, or as an honorable mention. Root requires the teacher to know every little rule for all factions and probably needs to police them through the first game to make sure the new players remember them,. While TM/AoI/GP is just a lot of iconography for new players to grasp.
For the most part I'm fine with teaching any game to 1 or 2 new players, the real agony begins when I have to teach 3 or more. That being said if there is somebody I know that struggles with a lot of rules I'm not even going near Spirit Island, Ark Nova, Hegemony or GWT NZ with them. I don't mind the teach itself but the game will take forever and I'll just sit at my side of the table by the mid game thinking how increasingly appealing a game of russian roulette is.
Nothing wrong with being besties! :D
Most of the time it is always going to be the noon has no chance of winning. Scythe is a great example even with 3-5 games under their belt, their chance of erring is extremely low. Puerto Rico , another where a noob won’t win. I don’t mind teaching or playing, but if it is one new player vs people who have played a lot, they will get crushed. Me personally, I don’t mind if I’m the noob though. I expect to lose, but I want to learn!
Puerto Rico feels like it is one that experienced players can take advantage of a new player who does things that help the next player in turn. Everyone wants their turn to be after the new player.
And this is the reason I really have negativ feelings about that game. I went as a rookie into a pretty veteranish play-group, they teached me spirit island as one of my first games and it is my favorite since then. But Puerto Rico was an absolute nightmare, because I was sitting between the absolut pro players who are playing every kind of expert-boardgames for atleast 15 years, and they crushed me in this game, capitalizing so hard on my mistakes, even on a level where the guy before me was absolutely pissed at me for my mistakes, because the guy after me was exploiting my decisions so hard, that I was the kingmaker without having any intention to be so..
So this one is a big nope for rookies when playing with competetive veterans.
Yes, if i liked the game more it would make this list for sure because of that reason. The snobbery of that game is offputting.
I wouldn't even wanna teach a noob Kingdomino. Maybe Cockroach Poker, and we'd have to drunk.
Teaching Earth is no problem if the noob is familiar with Wingspan. But I don't have that expansion yet and may change my mind.
I totally agree, I just wish more people that I taught earth to have played Wingspan 😉
Do you think kanban ev is something easier to teach?
I'm planning to buy it one day, but as it's my first Lacerda game I'm a bit worried about what other people say on its conplexity.
I actually find it pretty intuitive to teach as the theme is really strong.
Try Vinhos. I was not interested in Lacerda's stuff, but this was a smooth play. The complexity clicks in your head rather quickly.
@@TheBrokenMeeple thanks a lot!
@@clvrswine i'll give It a try for sure! Many thanks
Ark Nova and Spirit Island were the first I thought of, too.
Spirit Island is such a slog with new players and isn't fun for anyone involved imo, too overwhelming for the new player and too boring for an experienced player on low difficulties and super difficult not to quarterback. As you said can also go on forever.
I've gone back and forth as to whether Caverna of A Feast for Odin is harder to teach. I think maybe AFFO. But Caverna was my favorite game for a while and I taught it a lot, I had the teach down to a science. It was still tedious with all the niche rules/corner cases, just explaining the animal husbandry rules and how there are 5 animals that all follow a set of rules except each animal has at least one special rule/exception as well, and oh except cows whose special rule is they don't have a special rule. With all the buildings I usually would tell players to take a pic of the available buildings and look it over when it wasn't their turn, but also I'd recommend buildings to them as the game went on based on what they were doing and/or ask them what they were looking to do and point out a few that might be useful for them, which helped a little.
The Crew is a good one. Frustrating experience when there's a large gap in player skill/knowledge. Feels extra bad to realize on the last trick you can't win then learn you had already lost by the 1st or 2nd trick because of what the new/inexperienced player did. Also really difficult not to table talk to help newer players since without doing so it's probably a really poor and stressful experience for them.
Play The Crew OPEN HANDED for a couple rounds and it becomes a great game to teach trick taking 😊
Fair enough though it's auto-win! :P
Top 10 Mid/Heavy 2 player games one day ?
Doesn’t even have to specifically be capped at 2 players, me and my wife absolutely love Ark Nova, Agricola and Brass Birmingham and would like some of the same calibre
I've done 3 videos on light, medium and heavy 2 player games - have a look in my back catalogue - it was 2022/2023 I'm sure.
I would have had Root at number 1. Out of the last 10 games of Root, I felt like I only really *played* 1 of them. The rest I was teaching or policing rules the whole time.
I mention it at the start as an honourable mention but I'm not a big lover of Root.
After 6 years, I have yet to know for sure if I am or not either.. :P
I found Decoder is quite tricky to teach. And I wish someone would teach me Deep Rock Galactic because I always feel like I miss something when I play it
You use fantastic movie clips! More Spinal Tap please (I remember it coming out....). In your #9, Feast of Odin just arrived. Now to punch.
Thank you!!
I don't want to play Trickerion with noobs, I can barely play the base game myself. The other one that pops in mind is Clinics.
Trickerion is a good choice though because it's my friends favourite game, she is willing to teach it more than I would.
I'm definitely that trick-taking monkey. I do not understand it or where the fun is
Which is fair enough, but then I wouldn't put Crew on the table !
@@TheBrokenMeeple But you have to try everything once, so it's helpful when you try with people who know or what they're doing or it's just the blind leading the blind. Admittedly, both scenarios will probably end up with "we never want to play this again"
I must say, I don't agree with 7 Wonders. That game is the ideal gateway game beyond anything simplistic. I've used this multiple times with a group of people (various ages) open to trying something beyond Clue.
All the other ones, I agree with. I probably would have added Terraforming Mars. It isn't crazy hard, but it is also much longer than a newbie would be expecting.
Too much iconography is a killer for any game when playing with noobs - I agree TM is valid, but I'd rather play Ark Nova by far.
Wait a second! I've always known you as a GWT hater. I had no idea you liked NZ. I also much prefer NZ, I'm just surprised.
Ha ha yeah NZ had an effect on me! I've been meaning to do a video on it but just never had the time. It wouldn't suit a speed review, too much in it.
i dont even want to teach myself games let alone someone else. being the teacher in my house i get what youre saying completely. its just nice to play a favorite game with someone who already knows how.
i am not teaching Voidfall ever. NEVER. no interest in that at all. im happy with solo haha.
Mage Knight. again, ill just play it solo.
Ugh, teaching Voidfall would give me brain damage.
Sup Luke. I will suggest you make an experiment: stop putting all the skits inside your videos.
Intro, video, outro with links.
I watch your content to hear what you thought about a game, not to see snippets of films and animations, and you are entertaining enough.
I just think they're a lot of time input that's unnecessary.
I get they're enjoyable, and a fun touch, but in my mind, they're not worth the tonne of extra editing work, and it would have very little to no impact on my enjoyment of the content, and if it allows you to put more content out... then that's a win for everyone.
Anyway, great stuff as usual
To be honest, because I have a library of them now, they are not as time intensive as doing photos and cutting mistakes/coughs, etc from the time line.
@@TheBrokenMeeple gotcha, I remembered it was mentioned once and thought hey, if you wanna cut them out, know that at least one person won't mind !
I can’t believe that anyone would be so selfish as to sit down with three experienced players and expect to be taught any of these fairly heavy games and also expect to slow the gameplay down and ruin the experience for the other players. If I am asked to play any game of this weight I will spend a lot of my own time getting across rules via rules and videos (any yes I often turn to the broken Meeple) So at least I’m coming to the table somewhat prepared.
They don't have to for every heavy game but yeah when I stipulate it in Hegemony and then they just make excuses by the time they get there, that's low
Aka, best games to play with learned players.
Very nice topic, really enjoy it for 45 min, this could be a good podcast one. I agree is so annoying when you tell them, watch this video, is 20 min, 15 min, you have a week to do it, doesn´t take that long, nop, they don´t do it, they are to "busy" can´t spare any min, so now explain it and make it quick because they don´t like to take to long on the rules before playing.
Hegemony has long videos, but they are necessary!
Not all Noobs are the same. I love playing with most noobs. Some adult noobs make my 7 year old look like Einstein. Its embarrassing for everyone witnessing (asking the same question 15 times a game for an action they have already done several time, every time they try a new game) - in these situations chess or other simple abstract games it is - like Azul.
For most noobs in general, I would stay away from games of the Pax Ren ilk considering the obtuse angles to successful strategy.
More people typically end up being in that "kid looks like Einstein" category i find.
Remember Luke, “such were some of you”….a noob that is…is this not to play with non-gamers, new gamers, or first time for that game?
Non-gamers and new gamers have nothing in common with "first time for that game" players. I agree with Luke here: none of these games should be played with new or non gamers. By doing so, you may actually turn them off to gaming as it won't be enjoyable...for anyone involved.
@@SmackMule I wouldn't teach a lot of these games to brand new gamers or relatively new gamers, but it seems like Luke doesn't want to play them with players who don't know the game already either...
I think you misunderstand (hence I had to do that massive disclaimer at the start).
The idea is that players "new to that game" are ones I'd prefer (not always) to play without for the reasons listed in the disclaimer. Obviously I'm not going to show Hegemony to a player brand new to gaming. But if you have 3 players who know the game inside out, do you want to teach all those rules from scratch to ANYONE who hasn't played it before, or would you prefer to play the 3 player game with veterans?
@@TheBrokenMeeple fair enough…I honestly spaced out during that part wondering why you hated the solo for vale of eternity 😉
Twilight Imperium is a game that I would say is actually impossible to play with newbs.
And tricky to play in general! :P
Title, yeah, had to click and see this!
What's Caverner? 😆
A better name than Caverna! :P
@@TheBrokenMeepleI think it is on Board Game Arener?
Haha just poking fun at the accent :)
@@dansioui9819 I am with him that thinks Aaak Nover is a top game.
I love, love, love, Luke's pronunskiations. Keinda is Keiender. Other Luke-isms: "done and dusted", "as all get-out", "Mage Knight and Brass are the pinnacle of game design."
What you meant with a great moderator in the Scythe part?
Basically my mate is very good at getting people moving. He'll check whose turn it is, assist if necessary and keep people on their toes. Essentially the game never bogs down on one persons turn nor do we get distracted. It's awesome!
Welcome to is a game I won't teach to noobs.
Why so?
Crew at #2 is mental. You undermined your whole rant when you said yourself at the end: "most people get it after a round or two and rounds take five minutes"
When you say noobs are you thinking of meetup randoms? To be fair even uno would be a frustrating nightmare with some of the characters that go to my city's meet up.
#3. 😁 Also Uno is a frustrating nightmare no matter who is playing it 😂
By get it I also mean the rules, not the tactics and strategy behind it.
haha 7 wonders is number 7
Gloomhaven would like a word..
Gloomhaven is not a board game. It's whole other thing, IMHO. A whole other, unfun, thing.
Unfun for sure, however yes, it's a bit of a bugbear to teach and it does require decent co-op capability.
Root should be on this list
WHy did everyone miss the Root mention at the start?! :P
@@TheBrokenMeeple I heard it and it still should have been on the list.
Hot take, the crew sucks
Oh wow. I thought this Video might be fun to watch but all i see ans hear is "i am so intelligent and others arent" and Lack of tolerance. I really would not want to play ANYthing with you.
Playing games to me is a social event to have fun with ither people opposed to finish as many games in the shortest time possible.
Maybe that just was a Bad pick of your Videos but... maybe you want to work on your patience
I think clearly you didn't watch any of the introduction to this video whatsoever otherwise you would have understood what the context was as everyone else here has and not made such a wrong interpretation.