Test and try: Three random motherboards and a Mac Plus chassis
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2023
- * Warning: Do not work inside a Macintosh unless you know how to be safe! There are dangerous voltages inside.*
On the bench today we have an unknown condition Mac Plus chassis and three unknown condition motherboards. Let's take a look at all of it and test it out. What works and what doesn't?
-- Video Links
Fixing a Mac Plus with intermittent faults:
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Elenco Electronics LP-560 Logic Probe:
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Hakko FR301 Desoldering Iron:
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Universal ZIP sockets: (clones, used on my ZIF-64 test machine)
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RetroTink 2X Upconverter: (to hook up something like a C64 to HDMI)
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the long RAM chips on that Radius card are dual-ported 64kbit RAM, extremely expensive for the time period, but allows for the CPU to write to memory while the PALs over on the left scan it out.
I always enjoy your "Test and Try" type videos followed by your repair videos for stuff that didn't work.
Same! Always something I look forward to.
Small correction: The CPU is doing none of the lifting to push pixels to the screen on that Radius FPD board. Yes the CPU is working as the blitter when moving pixels, but the CPU has zero interaction whatsoever in displaying the pixels to the screen. The NEC41264 VRAM is a special dual ported 64k x 4 DRAM with a 2nd serial port built in for extracting the video. This was absolutely the most bog standard VRAM of the era. The 2nd port used a set of four, 256 bit long shift registers which were occasionally loaded by the counter GALs. For a monochrome display, this equates to one host side VRAM cycle per display line but there was zero interruption of host CPU and that cycle could be tucked into the refresh. This is in contrast to a system like the ZX-81 where the CPU actually does the heavy lifting to push pixels to the screen. I remember installing a couple of those Radius FDP boards in pluses in the '90 to '92 time frame. Installing the video connector was the odd part.
@14:30 that glue is corrosive from age, the same glue is used in lots of things and it is always a problem with corrosion and it actually starts to be conductive too and have seen it short out circuitry, I always clear it off too, a tip for getting it off is to use hot air as it softens it.
Damn polychloroprene, JVC used to glue capacitors to PCBs with this stuff.
@@yeoldestuff: Hi, have a similar problem here, my creative megaworks 550thx has that stuff allover the place on all caps on all boards. It has aged and that stuff is conductive, high resistance but conductive and it does not help that sound system.
@@bloeckmoep it also turns corrosive with time. I had a JVC turntable where legs of some components were completely rotten away.
Having repaired a few of these Macs I would recommend using adhesive backed Velcro to reattach the backing board. It does tear them sometimes but I've found that if you get the weakest Velcro it's pretty safe. Unlike the double sided foam tape it's reusable.
I can explain the port if you would like.
For banking machines in the early 80s and 90s most of the Macintosh 512k models had a modem module that the 512k sat on top of which allowed the Macintosh 512k to boot from the network instead of the 31/2 inch floppy drive.
With the Macintosh plus the modem network adapter was really kind of fudged up looking the adapter clipped onto the side of the Macintosh plus and was powered out of and sometimes communicated through a port fed through the locking port on the back of the Macintosh plus. My mom used one for 35 years while in the banking industry
Slightly yellow is quite a kind way to say "chain smoker" you're cracking me up Adrian 😂
Flight Simulator was originally by subLOGIC, but was licensed to Microsoft for DOS/Windows. Microsoft published the Mac version, but it was still developed by subLOGIC.
I remember in one of my places of employment there were several Mac Plus' with Radius full page monitors. The department was responsible for publishing marketing material and most of the monitors were physically rotated into Portrait orientation. A lot of legal size paper was in the printers and the big copier they used via a network.
@34:00 yes it crashed because you connected the mouse, older Mac's don't like things being plugged in or unplugged with the system powered.
Very nice video as always Adrian!
My proposition is to put the board with the daughterboard inside, and the 4MB of RAM of the other board. Connect the special connector as it was and search for a cable to fit there ( or make one) and see if and how it can drive an external monitor...
Retrobright and floppy drive repair and maybe a hard disk? It will be a special Mac Plus with that cool mod.
Kisses from Greece!
I played around with one of those when i was a youngster at my Uncle's place, he still have it, it make a nice decoration on a shelf.. 🙂
14:50 I think I remember an old computer repair acquaintance that always recommended using clear fingernail polish on that glue to keep it from absorbing moisture.
I had the IIGS port of Dark Castle as a kid … hard is an understatement.
I love that desktop background.
I really like your videos, mainly the macintosh ones
22:30 blooper again and love his Laughing
Ah my very first Mac. Bought a brand new one in 1991 for $4000 bucks.
800K upgrades for the older Macs is a ROM upgrade and a drive replacement. I have an "original" Macintosh that had the motherboard replaced with the upgrade ROMS and Drive. makes the system even more useful.
I recently refurbed a mac plus. I cleaned all of the junky double sided tape off of the analog board cover and put it back with blue tack. I have been into it a few times and the cover seems to stay in place well. I don't think blue tack is conductive so hopefully its a good hack. It's nice because I can take it on and off with ease now. As always love the repair videos!! The best on UA-cam I think. I wish you worked on reel to reel tape decks because I have a cantankerous one of those right now lol.
Some blue tack gets very sticky/stringy with age, so probably not a great material to secure the board cover.
@@nurmr Yeah we'll see I guess. Its not like apples solution stood the test of time either though.
Love the mirror hack! What a great idea!
What is that word "hack"? Hacking what? What's the difference compared to a fix? Or a solution?
@@herrbonk3635 as in "a strategy or technique for managing one's time or activities more efficiently", the use of the mirror to show the camera without having to move the case was brilliant. Ever heard the phrase "life hack"?
Every TV repair person I knew had a decent sized metal mirror for use making repairs and adjustments in people's homes. And usually regular glass mirror on the back of the work bench.
Setting up convergence is very difficult otherwise.
@@mikebarushok5361 Very clever!
Great video, and funny hot glue statement. I resemble that statement! Ouch! Sure I put the glue on there, but I forget! heh I love the cool use of reflection.
@14:28 That redish/brownish rock hard glue becomes conductive overtime.
I have a creative megaworks 550thx soundsystem and all the boards are covered in exactly that stuff. I can hear it hum now when its powered on, while it shouldn't let out any tone. I will need to completely disassemble the boards and deep scrape/clean them, I dread that day I start working on it 😢.
Back in the day, I had the "Mac Cracker" tool. It sort of looks like an oversized paper binder clip with a flat edge at the end that fits between the Mac's plastic shells. IMHO, you don't need it. I found it quicker and easier to just grip both case halves at one side of the top and gently pulling apart SIDEWAYS, turning around, then repeating, then finally pulling both halves apart (for Mac's that hadn't yet been taken apart back then...pretty sure that's no longer the case anymore ;) ).
A Mac Plus ROM set will work even on a Mac 128 motherboard. I bought one for $5, sold as bad, from a computer surplus place way back in the early '90s. I've been dragging it around ever since, considering making it into a wall hanging. But I recently decided to try and fix it, or at least figure out what was wrong. I pulled the ROMs out of a Mac Plus and stuck them on the 128. Plugged into a Plus chassis, the 128 came up to a sad mac with an error code that turned out to be {drum roll} bad MT ram. After replacing that, I got it to come up to a disk prompt, and that's as far as I've gone with it so far. Still thinking about doing some kind of 'what if' project with it, but as a working computer, rather than a static piece.
I like to imagine that maybe the original ROMs went into some kind of Mac hardware emulator for the Atari ST or Amiga, like the MAgic saC, or something.
That's one of the things that is annoying about the internet, hunting for info, you see a page result or a link, and it's dead, deleted, gone, I know things like the internet archive can save some of the sits it manages to log and store, but the rest, nope, gone for good... :(
I seem to recall that the "Mac Cracker" was just a 1970s era bulldog clip. You can buy modern versions. They come in 4-inch and 7-inch variants. The trick is to find one with thin enough lips so it'll fit in the groove.
You might be able to use spring clamps with the handles. Not sure if they're wide enough to avoid damaging the plastic.
Swap the adhesive pads for some velcro squares.
Thanks Adrian, water wash of PCB is working so good that I don't need to use alcohol or special chemical.
That's awesome! I ended up washing the Mac 512k motherboard and it ended up looking brand new. Good old soap, water and a blow-dry works wonders!
A lacquer coating may help stop oxygen reach the component reducing oxidation however if the glue after absorbing water is now acidic this may cause additional corrosion.
Ha, that's a great way to repurpose the security-mount opening! Wouldn't be TOO hard to make a connector to fit.
Retro is the Future!!
15:52 Y rated capacitors are designed to always fail open circuit if they fail, specifically because if they were to fail as shorts they would cause the danger you mention. I've never seen one fail as a short thankfully!
The reason the X rated one across the line goes, is because it is absorbing mains spikes which weakens the plates... the case cracking as well allows enough conduction to vaporise the dielectric, hence the smell. I've seen them after the mains fuse where they have let go, but the fuse remained intact... so they dont need to conduct MUCH current to stink!
Are there any cases or chassis available which let you use a Mac board with an external display?
Thanks
Interesting it's a external display card weird why on a black and white Mac
I wonder if in the future future like 2123 0r 2500 AD the current technology will be going through this....like image his great knowledge of crt, logic board and all the great tech been used also for like iPhone, mac book, iPad...cpu and their chipset been replaced from one chipset to other....
I really love electronics and this gives me new energy every other time
Only way to kill rust is to cut it out, they say in the car communities. But, Rust needs oxygen to thrive, so if you epoxy the flyback, it'll slow the corrosion down drastically or stop it from growing completely by suffocating it.
24:40 was system 3.2 about to continue loading? We saw flash of the Mac OS logo for just a moment before the reset.
oh system 6.0.8 ...first system that could use TrueType fonts .. all that was needed was the Truetype init and fonts
Man, the Flight Simulator "must be in the internal drive" thing is infuriating.
Had about 10 or so Amiga games that would insist on using DF0: for everything, even saving. DF1: sitting there doing nothing and I have to bugger about with disk swapping just to save.
Thankfully, whilst most games would insist on saving to DF0:, you could put the game disk(s) in any drive you like.
You might consider taking a Dremel or other rotary tool with a brass wire wheel in the chuck to carefully scrub at that flyback, then hit it with some Glyptal 1201 Red. How warm does the transformer get in operation? Once Glyptal 1201 Red Enamel cures it should be good for about 250 deg. F. It is available in spray cans as well as quarts. It is expensive... but it's worth it.
My Mac 512K crashes when I plug in a mouse while it is running.
Unfortunately, I don't know the version details as it is packed away.
I used to repair Mac machines back in the 80's and it was hilarious to watch people zap themselves on the monitor when they forgot to discharge it.
I am evil, I know!
Wonder what a typical use case for a dual display Macintosh Plus might have been back in the day? I can't imagine a lot of applications had support for two displays, was the intention to run two separate applications instead?
Presentations or other Dashboarding/professional displays I imagine. Or maybe someone really wanted to play games on a bigger screen?
AFAIK it was intended and (mostly) used for Desktop Publishing (DTP) - Macs were (and to some extent still are) THE dominant force in DTP and if you wanted to do something more than casual work you pretty much HAD to have a second bigger screen, and all the DTP programs supported this.
If you Google Radius Full Page Display (FPD) you'll find (one of) the sale brochures for this display at 1000BiT, the card is comes with the screen (the expensive part). It might even be this exact card given that it support 512E, Plus and SE.
Looks like the Radius FPD originally cost $1999, almost as much as the Mac Plus ($2599). So yeah, putting an FPD in a Plus with just 1MB of RAM *is* slightly weird given how expensive the display was. But people did buy stupid configurations back then too (and it still happens) so... not guaranteed.
I did end up making a video about the Radius card in this machine, and it'll be on the main channel a few days after this video goes live.
These were not uncommon for secretary/receptionist machines. All applications inherently supported both displays because of the way the Mac toolbox works. In 1986 you could load a Mac ][ with 6 video cards and seamlessly drag a window around 6 monitors. When these full page monitors were released, a Mac could only run one application at a time. It wasn't until late 1987 that it gained cooperative multitasking.
The apps also ran fine on virtual monitor and extension programs.
Would IPA or some other kind of electronics-related solvent be able to soften that glue to where it can be peeled off?
A heat gun helps a lot.
10:59 The Rifa probably heard you talking about it.
Not sure why the Patron youtube video on the web page in my email keeps on showing up only an inch wide.
Hey Adrian, watching this video I remembered: I have a floppyemu with the microcontroller burned out. Seems to be a common issue with them, and Steve does not have a repair program. It may do a good video, replacing and reprogramming it, and it would help a lot the retro community as many have this issue. Do you have interest in it? If yes I can give and send it to you. Cheers
You should replace those "Y" caps. They help control leakages voltages from the switching power supplies which can cause unwanted behaviour.
Is it possible to change aluminium capacitors with electrolytic capacitors?
They are the same thing. Electrolytic capacitors _are_ aluminium.
no, they need to be regular capacitors (unpolarized)
@@WooShell Aluminium electrolytic capacitors(which these presumably are) *are* polarized.
35:00 I wonder if perhaps the makers of infinitemac can point you in the right direction?
Looks like the second board shown had a recent tick/check mark as the pen is the white kind. Cool. Love the videos. Thank you. 💚
Saw you at SFGE! Wanted to say hello but you had too many people around you.
Not Dark Castle noooooo. 😭
Nya nya nya!
@@mustangmckraken1150 😭🤣
You think Dark Castle was hard......Try Beyond Dark Castle!
No no no, no rifa recap. Mike the Scavenger booted this mac just rigth after dumpster
Bake the part in an oven at 50°C or so for a day then put the new pain on
Notification Squad! :)
NO! Not. There is no fkn squad.
Radius display has higher dot per inch so displays need a larger font.
I think I remember 96 DPI.
absorbed water? .. just put it in rice to dry :D
Adrian just dropped a deuce in the basement!
without the focus the footage is 480p lol
dont ask a whale what to do
tho a whale is the most reasoning of the beasts
Tsk, tsk, tsk... Adrian, you need a lot to learn a lot when it comes to Macs.
First off, you can have 800K/Double Sided disks on the "Older Macs" as back in the day, there were the "Skinny Mac" (128K Mac) and the "Fat Mac" (512K Macs) and the Fat Macs used 800K Double Sided Drives. In fact, there was a Hard Drive IIRC called the HD20 which connected to the Mac through the floppy port. The Issue here is mixing Mac System Formats. From System 1.0 to 4.2/Finder 3,5, it was the MFS (Flat File system). From 4.2 to 6.08 and beyond it is the HFS (Hierarchical File System). This has nothing to do with the ROM, as you can run System 6 on a Mac 512K with the old ROMs. When using the HD20 hard drive, it was either formatted as an MFS system for Pre System 4.2 systems or as HSF for System 4.2/Finder 5 and beyond.
Let me explain further, if you have a System 1 on a MFS formatted disk, it will boot properly. But if you have System 1 on an HFS formatted disk, it will crash. This is because the directory layout is different from MFS vs. HFS. Same is tru with System 6 on a MFS formatted disk, as it will crash. The issue is System 4.2 and which Finder is uses. The older Finder 3.2 has to be on an MFS formatted disk or it will crash. The System 4.2 with Finder 5 must be on an HFS formatted disk or is will crash. Chances are this is what is happening with your System 4 on the Floppy Emu.
Though not related to these older Macs, with System 8.1 came the HFS+ system which expands how much a Mac Hard Drive can hold.
The Enhanced ROMs did not come into play until the Mac Plus. They are only enhanced with some Bug Fixes and the additional SCSI routines to access SCSI Devices. The problem with this is, The Mac 512K (Fat Mac) was still under production when the Mac Plus was being made and in fact, they still made 512K Fat Macs after the Mac Plus was discontinued for the Mac SE. During this time, Apple decided to save money by using one set of ROMs used on the Mac Plus and putting them into Mac 512Ks making them "Enhanced Macs." Many third companies made SCSI add-on boards for the Mac 512K but in their notes they stated that the Mac 512K must have the Enhanced ROMs for SCSI add-on to work.
The 6522's on the Mac boards are there for Serial I/O and the Mouse and Keyboard, similar to the C64/Vic20.
You are right on the Video's ROM needing to be updated for System 7, but you aldo need the Drivers for the card as well on both System 6 and 7.
And System 7 also sucks on the Mac Plus, Modified Mac 512K and Mac SE because it loads a lot into it. If you can trm it with a System Resource Editor, you can gain some speed out of it. But it would also be best to have a 16MHz 68K accelerator on the older Mac and then you can see the B/W Mac shine.
RIFAs... Oh Those Damned RIFAs!!!
You should leave a link as to where to get those you recommend and many like I have old Apples and Macs and need those RIFA replaced!
The Fokker triplane was flown by the Red Baron in WW1. Did you really not know that?
not everyone is a Snoopy fan u know
One way to keep iron from rusting or corroding is putting a less 'precious' metal against it like aluminum or zinc which is called a sacrificial anode then. Protection is electrochemical and requires only a conductive contact between the 2 metals. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_anode