Keep in mind Nath's maltese is far from an actual maltese since he bents his arms and squeezes them against his lats. That makes it a lot easier and different to the real thing ..
It would count in a competition so it depends on your definition of "actual". No doubt if he could perform it like the gymnasts in the vid he would so from that perspective, it's a work in progress. We go deeper into specifics in the podcast I link at the end!
@@TysonE This. When looking at the code of points, it would 100% count. While some deductions would be associated, it's still a great accomplishment for him. Nath has said in his own videos (on multiple occasions) that his elbows have had multiple injuries. So, for him to get even this is a great accomplishment.
I absolutely agree that my Maltese is far from perfect, but I think describing it as not an 'actual' Maltese is a little harsh. As Tyson says, my Maltese would absolutely be credited as a Maltese in a competition as it hits the minimum requirements for recognition - it is within 45 degrees of horizontal and shows a clear hold rather than falling straight through. It would of course carry deductions for bent arms, false grip, and resting arms on lats (probably 0.1 deduction for each error) but it would 100% count. Considering my height, weight, injury history (hypermobile elbows) & training background (not an elite or funded athlete) I am very proud of this achievement - even though it is not perfect, it is pretty much as good as I was ever going to get. Perhaps that is an additional takeaway from this video - that a perfect form Maltese hold is perhaps not a realistic target for the 'average' person, and that expectations of this should be reserved exclusively for those with the right body type & training history?
@@natcomber13 Not wanting to diss your achievement at all man, it was more of a reminder that a maltese with straight arms is pretty different from a bent arm maltese (more specific straight arm vs more general bent arm strength, shorter lever etc). In my opinion it's hard to compare them because of that. I'm glad to hear that this achievement makes you proud and you sure can be! I'm sorry if my comment sounded a little harsh that was not the purpouse. Have a good one and all the best for your future goals 💪🏻
are you serious ?! "the biceps serve a secondary role during maltese"... THE BICEPS ARE THE ONE MUSCLE GROUP THAT HAS TO PRODUCE THE BIGGEST AMOUNT OF STRENGTH AS THEY INTERVENE AT THE ELBOW JOINT AS WELL AS THE SHOULDER JOINT (long head of the biceps)
This the start of the road to ring maltese? This is what I'm currently working on. Have a half decent cross. While it doesn't feel as stressful on the joints as the cross does for whatever reason, I find the strength requirement to be a hell of a lot higher.
Nathan’s Maltese is an impressive feat of strength- but I don’t know if that’s really what we should aspire to. I think The bent arms means it’s not a true Maltese - and I think everyone would agree that training a straight arm skill with bent arms is not the right way- even with the slightest of bends. I’m familiar with Nathan’s iron cross and I know he had hyper extended elbows, so his elbows are def not in the locked position. Quite frankly, and I mean this in the sincerest way, advocating that a bent arm version “counts” goes against a lot of what we have learnt from both channels. In my opinion Bent arm Maltese is exactly that - a “bent arm Maltese”. a Maltese is a Maltese done with straight arms
I think in a lot of ways, what you are saying is correct, but I also think this viewpoint is a little bit narrow minded. Perfect form is exactly that - perfect form; but there has to be some allowance for discrepancy from that whilst still counting the skill. It cannot either be perfect or disregarded completely with no middle ground at all. If I did a handstand with an arched back, or a back somersault with my legs apart, I have still 'done' those moves - it just contains errors which need to be addressed. I personally look at my Maltese the same way. Obviously if the error becomes very substantial then you can start to discuss whether it counts or not, and if my arms were bent to 45 degrees I would definitely agree that it doesn't count, however my arms are only very slightly bent; more of what I would describe as a 'soft lock' than a full elbow flexion. Ironically, gymnastics (which has a reputation for being stuck up and snobby) seems to be more accepting of this than the calisthenics community, whose opinion seems to generally be more purist and dismissive. I am not discussing this hypothetically when I say that this Maltese would count in a gymnastics competition - I am a national level judge myself and I would absolutely count it with deductions. I have even seen worse malteses than this credited in competition, with high shoulders, arched backs etc. I was in a room full of high level gymnasts and coaches when I did my Malteses and they all congratulated me for holding a Maltese - because I did. I agree that my Maltese is not necessarily something to aspire to, but ultimately one of the main points of this video was to discuss how achievable the Maltese is for the 'average' guy, not to discuss how to do a Maltese to Olympic level standard. I would have loved to have achieved a beautiful, perfect, aesthetic Maltese, but I realised a long time ago that doing this with locked arms was an unattainable goal for me, due to my hypermobile elbows and associated, on-going injuries, plus my height and my weight. I decided that I would prefer to achieve the skill with lesser form than to aimlessly be doing locked arm dumbbell presses for years to come without it ever actually translating into a bodyweight skill...whether that was the right decision or not can be debated, but it was what I wanted to do for my own personal satisfaction and I do not regret that. I'm very proud of getting some kind of recognisable hold on this damn near impossible element.
I think we could have an extensive discussion on what counts and what doesn't as it is quite subjective. I've found my standards over time have become less militaristic and more along a spectrum.I agree if you have formed views on gymnastics strength training that are influenced by my channel's content, you'll no doubt be a stickler for straight arms but you'll also see in videos like Planche Genesis Evangelion, I battle with the subjective nature of defining what is and isn't a skill. You don't personally have to accept Nath's maltese as the gold standard and I think all three of us in this mini thread know what improvements we'd want to see. But it sounds like you'd rather see Nath's best locked arm maltese at somewhat of an incline more than a horizontal body line and compensation's by the arms or back. This seems more like a much of a muchness. Your cross (which is epic btw), some sticklers might discredit the attempt because (I don't think) there is never a time that you stop dead and hold, you also have a slightly forward lean (shoulders in front of hips). But I count your cross and I would go to you (or Nath) for realistic advice on how you trained it sooner than I would ask an outlier like Yuri Van Gelder. What I wanted the viewers to get out of this the most is training towards maltese requires brutal bent arm pushing strength. Skills such as back lever, iron cross and straddle planche are highly desirable, if not essential. Direct maltese training should be specific (band assisted maltese) and supplemented by dumbbell presses that go above and below maltese. I don't think there is disagreement with that? And that's what makes whether you count Nath's maltese or not irrelevant to the main message in this video.
@@natcomber13 First, I think we should separate out two issues. The first I think concerns whether the Maltese was impressive and the second is the degree to which it should be counted as a Maltese. To address the first, it is an extremely impressive feat of strength and I congratulate you for it. I'm sure it took a lot of dedication and hard work to achieve, especially as an adult. As someone who started Gymnastics when they were 23, I understand the struggle that it takes, and I’m no where near as good as you are. To clarify the second, and if I read your reply correctly, there appears to be two schools of thought here. The first is the "gymnastic" standard and the second is the more dogmatic calisthenics standard. One has measurable elements in it, and one is merely a "feeling". Both standards share the common requirement that perfect execution means locked elbows. According to the gymnastics standard, it is a skill that, when performed as you did, you will get points and some deductions as you have pointed out. And indeed, there is a certain point where you will get no points for the skill in which case one might argue that the skill wasn't performed. As I understand it, the main argument you're putting forward is that because you got points for the skill in a competition, and other qualified coaches said it counts, then it counts. And fair enough too. One could also probably argue that it is a more robust standard than the calisthenics "standard" because it is quantifiable, measurable and can be decomposed into constituent elements. Fundamentally, I think my issue about locked elbows as an important requirement is two-fold:
1. My understanding is that progressing the skill without locked elbows doesn't allow you to progress to eventually performing the skill with locked elbows. In other words, if you progress with bent elbows (even the slightest bend), then it will never turn into a version with locked elbows. For me, this means it is a different skill because it isn't a natural scaled back variant from the straight arm version. Perhaps I'm wrong on this? You mentioned you are a national judge, could you clarify? 2. On your own channel, and on Tyson’s, there have been multiple videos where you have emphasised the importance of locked elbows for support hold. I even recall your own iron cross progression video, you injured yourself because you were progressing with bent elbows and decided to shift to straight elbows. Would you mind clarifying how that differs from the maltese training? I think, if you could clarify those two points above then it would be helpful, not only for my knowledge, but perhaps for others in this community too.
@@TysonE Indeed, I understand the criticism of my best cross attempt. To be perfectly honest, I probably think it’s quite marginal myself, as I would argue that I did stop (even for a second), but I could also be persuaded to believe that I didn’t. I also agree that what I personally count as a maltese doesn’t matter. Everyone has their own personal judgement on what counts, as you point out. I’m not critiquing nathan's achievement. It’s an impressive feat of strength, that obviously took Nathan a long time to achieve with a lot of dedication and hard work. It’s very impressive. And Nathan and yourself give useful tips and ideas. However, I do think it’s confusing that sometimes we are strict with locked elbows, like in support hold and other times we are not. It would be good to get clarity on that. And, the reason why I think the idea of locked elbows is relevant to the message of the video is because of the nature and specificity of straight arm strength- your video message is how to train Maltese as an adult, which, as I understand it, we both agree is fundamentally a straight arm strength skill. My understanding is that progressing a straight arm skill without locked elbows doesn't allow you to progress to eventually performing the skill with locked elbows. In other words, if you start with bent elbows (even the slightest bend), then it will never turn into a version with locked elbows. Perhaps I’m wrong? But assuming I’m right for a moment, for me the relevancy to your video is whether, as an adult, I should start with locked elbows or not, with the understanding that if I start with unlocked elbows, then I will finish with unlocked elbows. If I’m an adult and I aspire to have fully locked elbows in a maltese, then is this the way to go? Or is that impossible? I think that’s an important thing to cover.
@@ricious Hey man, thanks for your reply. First off, I appreciate your acknowledgement that what I have achieved is impressive - it did indeed take a massive amount of work and commitment. I somewhat agree with your statement that training with bent arms (even slightly) will not necessarily progress to the fully straight armed maltese, although I do feel that there is some crossover, as the same main agonists are being trained and the joint angles are very similar, especially if the arm bend is minimal. Although there is likely some strength transfer, it probably doesn't do much to prepare the elbows in terms of tendon strength; and being as this is a limiting factor for most people, it would generally be a poor choice of porgression. That being said, in my case, I was not working maltese with a soft lock with a view to progress to fully straight arms in the future, because as I said before, I felt like a strict form maltese was unacheivable for me. Perhaps placing this limit on myself was incorrect and it is actually possible, but I reckon it would be a commitment of 5+ years dedicated training to just that, and at this point in my life, the idea of that just doesn't interest me enough to commit to it. If I had realised this sooner then maybe I would have never even started working towards it at all, but I was stubborn and wanted something to show for my efforts, so this is what I ended up with haha. You bring up my comments about straight arms in my iron cross progression video from years ago - I did indeed injure my elbows when training for cross with soft lock. Bending the elbows in the cross position pushes the elbows slightly behind the plane of the rings which puts more stress on the medial side of the elbow, which in my case caused damage to the common flexor tendons (similar to tennis elbow). I think that training maltese with bent arms is safer than cross with bent arms because bending the arms in maltese doesn't massively change the position of the elbows relative to the rings - the strain would stay very much on the biceps regardless. It's interesting to note that in my training following the video you are referencing, I also injured my elbows working cross with fully locked arms (this time damage to the posterior elbow, rather than medial side). In retrospect, my issues probably stemmed from the fact that I simply wasn't strong enough to be doing the progressions I was attempting yet, rather than the form I was using. Like I said in this video, I definitely fell victim to going too specific too early - I had the SAID principle in the forefront of my brain so thought I should just be doing crosses, but I didn't yet fully appreciate the baseline of strength needed before doing specifics. If I were to go back in time and start training for cross again knowing what I know now, I would probably do 3-6 months of weighted dips, weighted pull ups, bicep curls and light, high volume cross presses with bands or cables before doing any type of intense straight arm cross work. In sum, if your aspiration is a strict form maltese, train with strict form - this was not my aspiration as I felt it was not possible, or at least would take more time and dedication than it was worth in my opinion. Be warned that to acheive this as a taller, heavier adult with no elite training history will be a long term commitment, and in a lot of cases will probably never reach the desired conclusion.
Take a scoop of pre every time I say maltese.
Don’t tempt me
hello my lawyer would like to contact you over the heart attack that this comment caused...
Keep in mind Nath's maltese is far from an actual maltese since he bents his arms and squeezes them against his lats. That makes it a lot easier and different to the real thing ..
👍👍
It would count in a competition so it depends on your definition of "actual". No doubt if he could perform it like the gymnasts in the vid he would so from that perspective, it's a work in progress. We go deeper into specifics in the podcast I link at the end!
@@TysonE This. When looking at the code of points, it would 100% count. While some deductions would be associated, it's still a great accomplishment for him. Nath has said in his own videos (on multiple occasions) that his elbows have had multiple injuries. So, for him to get even this is a great accomplishment.
I absolutely agree that my Maltese is far from perfect, but I think describing it as not an 'actual' Maltese is a little harsh. As Tyson says, my Maltese would absolutely be credited as a Maltese in a competition as it hits the minimum requirements for recognition - it is within 45 degrees of horizontal and shows a clear hold rather than falling straight through. It would of course carry deductions for bent arms, false grip, and resting arms on lats (probably 0.1 deduction for each error) but it would 100% count.
Considering my height, weight, injury history (hypermobile elbows) & training background (not an elite or funded athlete) I am very proud of this achievement - even though it is not perfect, it is pretty much as good as I was ever going to get.
Perhaps that is an additional takeaway from this video - that a perfect form Maltese hold is perhaps not a realistic target for the 'average' person, and that expectations of this should be reserved exclusively for those with the right body type & training history?
@@natcomber13 Not wanting to diss your achievement at all man, it was more of a reminder that a maltese with straight arms is pretty different from a bent arm maltese (more specific straight arm vs more general bent arm strength, shorter lever etc). In my opinion it's hard to compare them because of that.
I'm glad to hear that this achievement makes you proud and you sure can be! I'm sorry if my comment sounded a little harsh that was not the purpouse.
Have a good one and all the best for your future goals 💪🏻
Thanks again for the video mate, awesome work - was great to be involved!
Great videos, looking forward to the podcast
He got bent arm maltese. I can do that but its quite harder ehan bent arm planche.
Tag me!
are you serious ?! "the biceps serve a secondary role during maltese"... THE BICEPS ARE THE ONE MUSCLE GROUP THAT HAS TO PRODUCE THE BIGGEST AMOUNT OF STRENGTH AS THEY INTERVENE AT THE ELBOW JOINT AS WELL AS THE SHOULDER JOINT (long head of the biceps)
Would weighted ring dips and ring push ups be a good prerequisite?
Sure :)
Great little edit and collab!
This the start of the road to ring maltese? This is what I'm currently working on. Have a half decent cross. While it doesn't feel as stressful on the joints as the cross does for whatever reason, I find the strength requirement to be a hell of a lot higher.
Not just yet, need to get my general upper body strength a bit stronger first!
💓❣️😇💗💕💞💖❤️♥️
Amazing power ⚔️
Nice!!
lol just supi backlever with 20 kg on ankle and that's it,free maltese .
Nathan’s Maltese is an impressive feat of strength- but I don’t know if that’s really what we should aspire to. I think The bent arms means it’s not a true Maltese - and I think everyone would agree that training a straight arm skill with bent arms is not the right way- even with the slightest of bends. I’m familiar with Nathan’s iron cross and I know he had hyper extended elbows, so his elbows are def not in the locked position. Quite frankly, and I mean this in the sincerest way, advocating that a bent arm version “counts” goes against a lot of what we have learnt from both channels.
In my opinion Bent arm Maltese is exactly that - a “bent arm Maltese”. a Maltese is a Maltese done with straight arms
I think in a lot of ways, what you are saying is correct, but I also think this viewpoint is a little bit narrow minded. Perfect form is exactly that - perfect form; but there has to be some allowance for discrepancy from that whilst still counting the skill. It cannot either be perfect or disregarded completely with no middle ground at all.
If I did a handstand with an arched back, or a back somersault with my legs apart, I have still 'done' those moves - it just contains errors which need to be addressed. I personally look at my Maltese the same way. Obviously if the error becomes very substantial then you can start to discuss whether it counts or not, and if my arms were bent to 45 degrees I would definitely agree that it doesn't count, however my arms are only very slightly bent; more of what I would describe as a 'soft lock' than a full elbow flexion.
Ironically, gymnastics (which has a reputation for being stuck up and snobby) seems to be more accepting of this than the calisthenics community, whose opinion seems to generally be more purist and dismissive. I am not discussing this hypothetically when I say that this Maltese would count in a gymnastics competition - I am a national level judge myself and I would absolutely count it with deductions. I have even seen worse malteses than this credited in competition, with high shoulders, arched backs etc. I was in a room full of high level gymnasts and coaches when I did my Malteses and they all congratulated me for holding a Maltese - because I did.
I agree that my Maltese is not necessarily something to aspire to, but ultimately one of the main points of this video was to discuss how achievable the Maltese is for the 'average' guy, not to discuss how to do a Maltese to Olympic level standard.
I would have loved to have achieved a beautiful, perfect, aesthetic Maltese, but I realised a long time ago that doing this with locked arms was an unattainable goal for me, due to my hypermobile elbows and associated, on-going injuries, plus my height and my weight. I decided that I would prefer to achieve the skill with lesser form than to aimlessly be doing locked arm dumbbell presses for years to come without it ever actually translating into a bodyweight skill...whether that was the right decision or not can be debated, but it was what I wanted to do for my own personal satisfaction and I do not regret that. I'm very proud of getting some kind of recognisable hold on this damn near impossible element.
I think we could have an extensive discussion on what counts and what doesn't as it is quite subjective. I've found my standards over time have become less militaristic and more along a spectrum.I agree if you have formed views on gymnastics strength training that are influenced by my channel's content, you'll no doubt be a stickler for straight arms but you'll also see in videos like Planche Genesis Evangelion, I battle with the subjective nature of defining what is and isn't a skill. You don't personally have to accept Nath's maltese as the gold standard and I think all three of us in this mini thread know what improvements we'd want to see. But it sounds like you'd rather see Nath's best locked arm maltese at somewhat of an incline more than a horizontal body line and compensation's by the arms or back. This seems more like a much of a muchness. Your cross (which is epic btw), some sticklers might discredit the attempt because (I don't think) there is never a time that you stop dead and hold, you also have a slightly forward lean (shoulders in front of hips). But I count your cross and I would go to you (or Nath) for realistic advice on how you trained it sooner than I would ask an outlier like Yuri Van Gelder. What I wanted the viewers to get out of this the most is training towards maltese requires brutal bent arm pushing strength. Skills such as back lever, iron cross and straddle planche are highly desirable, if not essential. Direct maltese training should be specific (band assisted maltese) and supplemented by dumbbell presses that go above and below maltese. I don't think there is disagreement with that? And that's what makes whether you count Nath's maltese or not irrelevant to the main message in this video.
@@natcomber13 First, I think we should separate out two issues.
The first I think concerns whether the Maltese was impressive and the second is the degree to which it should be counted as a Maltese.
To address the first, it is an extremely impressive feat of strength and I congratulate you for it. I'm sure it took a lot of dedication and hard work to achieve, especially as an adult. As someone who started Gymnastics when they were 23, I understand the struggle that it takes, and I’m no where near as good as you are.
To clarify the second, and if I read your reply correctly, there appears to be two schools of thought here. The first is the "gymnastic" standard and the second is the more dogmatic calisthenics standard. One has measurable elements in it, and one is merely a "feeling". Both standards share the common requirement that perfect execution means locked elbows.
According to the gymnastics standard, it is a skill that, when performed as you did, you will get points and some deductions as you have pointed out. And indeed, there is a certain point where you will get no points for the skill in which case one might argue that the skill wasn't performed. As I understand it, the main argument you're putting forward is that because you got points for the skill in a competition, and other qualified coaches said it counts, then it counts. And fair enough too. One could also probably argue that it is a more robust standard than the calisthenics "standard" because it is quantifiable, measurable and can be decomposed into constituent elements.
Fundamentally, I think my issue about locked elbows as an important requirement is two-fold:
1. My understanding is that progressing the skill without locked elbows doesn't allow you to progress to eventually performing the skill with locked elbows. In other words, if you progress with bent elbows (even the slightest bend), then it will never turn into a version with locked elbows. For me, this means it is a different skill because it isn't a natural scaled back variant from the straight arm version. Perhaps I'm wrong on this? You mentioned you are a
national judge, could you clarify?
2. On your own channel, and on Tyson’s, there have been multiple videos where you have emphasised the importance of locked elbows for support hold. I even recall your own iron cross progression video, you injured yourself because you were progressing with bent elbows and decided to shift to straight elbows. Would you mind clarifying how that differs from the maltese training?
I think, if you could clarify those two points above then it would be helpful, not only for my knowledge, but perhaps for others in this community too.
@@TysonE Indeed, I understand the criticism of my best cross attempt. To be perfectly honest, I probably think it’s quite marginal myself, as I would argue that I did stop (even for a second), but I could also be persuaded to believe that I didn’t.
I also agree that what I personally count as a maltese doesn’t matter. Everyone has their own personal judgement on what counts, as you point out.
I’m not critiquing nathan's achievement. It’s an impressive feat of strength, that obviously took Nathan a long time to achieve with a lot of dedication and hard work. It’s very impressive. And Nathan and yourself give useful tips and ideas.
However, I do think it’s confusing that sometimes we are strict with locked elbows, like in support hold and other times we are not. It would be good to get clarity on that.
And, the reason why I think the idea of locked elbows is relevant to the message of the video is because of the nature and specificity of straight arm strength- your video message is how to train Maltese as an adult, which, as I understand it, we both agree is fundamentally a straight arm strength skill.
My understanding is that progressing a straight arm skill without locked elbows doesn't allow you to progress to eventually performing the skill with locked elbows. In other words, if you start with bent elbows (even the slightest bend), then it will never turn into a version with locked elbows. Perhaps I’m wrong?
But assuming I’m right for a moment, for me the relevancy to your video is whether, as an adult, I should start with locked elbows or not, with the understanding that if I start with unlocked elbows, then I will finish with unlocked elbows.
If I’m an adult and I aspire to have fully locked elbows in a maltese, then is this the way to go? Or is that impossible? I think that’s an important thing to cover.
@@ricious Hey man, thanks for your reply.
First off, I appreciate your acknowledgement that what I have achieved is impressive - it did indeed take a massive amount of work and commitment.
I somewhat agree with your statement that training with bent arms (even slightly) will not necessarily progress to the fully straight armed maltese, although I do feel that there is some crossover, as the same main agonists are being trained and the joint angles are very similar, especially if the arm bend is minimal. Although there is likely some strength transfer, it probably doesn't do much to prepare the elbows in terms of tendon strength; and being as this is a limiting factor for most people, it would generally be a poor choice of porgression.
That being said, in my case, I was not working maltese with a soft lock with a view to progress to fully straight arms in the future, because as I said before, I felt like a strict form maltese was unacheivable for me. Perhaps placing this limit on myself was incorrect and it is actually possible, but I reckon it would be a commitment of 5+ years dedicated training to just that, and at this point in my life, the idea of that just doesn't interest me enough to commit to it. If I had realised this sooner then maybe I would have never even started working towards it at all, but I was stubborn and wanted something to show for my efforts, so this is what I ended up with haha.
You bring up my comments about straight arms in my iron cross progression video from years ago - I did indeed injure my elbows when training for cross with soft lock. Bending the elbows in the cross position pushes the elbows slightly behind the plane of the rings which puts more stress on the medial side of the elbow, which in my case caused damage to the common flexor tendons (similar to tennis elbow). I think that training maltese with bent arms is safer than cross with bent arms because bending the arms in maltese doesn't massively change the position of the elbows relative to the rings - the strain would stay very much on the biceps regardless.
It's interesting to note that in my training following the video you are referencing, I also injured my elbows working cross with fully locked arms (this time damage to the posterior elbow, rather than medial side).
In retrospect, my issues probably stemmed from the fact that I simply wasn't strong enough to be doing the progressions I was attempting yet, rather than the form I was using. Like I said in this video, I definitely fell victim to going too specific too early - I had the SAID principle in the forefront of my brain so thought I should just be doing crosses, but I didn't yet fully appreciate the baseline of strength needed before doing specifics. If I were to go back in time and start training for cross again knowing what I know now, I would probably do 3-6 months of weighted dips, weighted pull ups, bicep curls and light, high volume cross presses with bands or cables before doing any type of intense straight arm cross work.
In sum, if your aspiration is a strict form maltese, train with strict form - this was not my aspiration as I felt it was not possible, or at least would take more time and dedication than it was worth in my opinion. Be warned that to acheive this as a taller, heavier adult with no elite training history will be a long term commitment, and in a lot of cases will probably never reach the desired conclusion.