Wow, been looking for a way to put this in words for a long time. I’m glad you made this because now I can reference this when I explain that I love rakeless Cals for freeride
I've been reading a blog called "changing angles" where the geometry and math of trucks is explained. From what I could understand, the rake doesn't have an effect on the lean vs turn ratio, but it has an effect on the force vs lean ratio.
Interesting perspective. Always felt that the "if the truck is going ot be good midslide" was determined by how much "center" the trucks had. I have no problems at all holding big standies on high rake trucks (other factors considered), especially if they have loads of center. Which is why I think trucks like Rojas are so op for freeride. Massive center as I've heard a lot of people say. I'll give rakelss and negative rake a try at next opportunity thanks to this video :)
I totally agree, more centre is what I have found to be a game changer for standies. Centre, or even just straight up stability. I know that for me slightly harder bushings make standies easier, and softer bushings make them less forgiving. At least on a slalom setup. However, that is at the expense of your initiation because you can’t turn as easily.
Lean:Turn ratio does not change with rake. Rake only increases leverage and helps “tip” you over as you lean in the first few stages of lean. It definitely has an effect on slides though. And placement of wheel loading.
The rake does NOT affect lean/turn ratio - for a given single axis truck, the lean/turn ratio is fixed. For the trucks with positive rake, when you lean, the height of the truck will be lowered, so the gravity will help you apply more force to the hanger to lean/turn, that's why it makes you feel the truck turn more.
@@hopscotch6596 I should have put it this way: the deck will be lowered. changingangles.com/2019/07/15/rake-doesnt-change-axle-turn/, the animation illustrates how the deck moves vertically while the truck is leaning/turning. The handling of a bicycle works in a very similar way, www.renehersecycles.com/trail-does-not-make-a-bike-stable/
I feel like the new Aeras (P2 and K6) come with really high rake, I believe it's around +5mm or so, but many riders seem to do standies on them quite well too. I wonder why. Does it have to do with the extra long pivot? Or does it have to do with the tight-ish bushing seat design? They also don't come with stock insert bushings, so there's no extra stabilization at the kingpin either.
@@hopscotch6596 How much do you consider high? Scythe goes up to 11, but then their design is unique and probably feels way different to most RKP's. Seismic Aeons have 9, which is a lot, but maybe the unique bushing shape works to make a 9mm rake hanger feel "normal". Rogue slaloms and Don't Trip Dangers have 8, which is probably the highest traditional RKP rake, but they are both narrow, slalom trucks (with rear offset zero or negative). Highest symm-hanger RKP rake, that I currently know of, is 5, hence why I say 5 is really high rake already.
@@hopscotch6596 There's no freeride RKP with more than 5mm tho. My 130mm chopped Randal R2's have a unique defect at the pivot that makes them have actual rake closer to 7mm than the 5mm they were designed with. They are pretty fun, but the rear outside wheel wants to lift quite easily, so there's 2 distinct stages of dive: normal rakey dive and then super dive once the board deweights the outside rear wheel. Pretty weird.
@@nickamarit yeah that's classic R2 casting. Not sure what you mean by freeride RKP but I still stand by high rake = hard to hold standups. There's some really good skaters who can do it with high rake trucks but that's because they prefer the cornering feel of them over their stability mid slide
Negative rake is also superior for fast pushing. It also self corrects small balance mistakes. Negative rake does the same thing a wider rear tire on a motor bike does for stability. You do have more leverage with more negative rake also, so it can work your bushings more which makes them feel softer. K3's were designed to be ran negative too.
How much of the bushing seat shape and sidewalls plays into this feeling your describing mid sideways? Do you think it plays more of a part the rake? I wonder because rakelass cals hold sideways better and have steeper bushing seat sidewalls then the rakeless.
I would assume it plays the biggest or second biggest roll in holding a slide. It's a lean limiter so that will contain the high degrees of lean which contains the high degrees of rake. That's why a flat bushing seat allows so much depth of turn
@@kurtisderow7692 Deep bushing seat acts the same as a deep cupped washer. Limits the lean range. If the lean/turn ratio is 1/1, 2/2.5, 3/5, you never get that last 3/5 because the bushing seat cuts it off
Rake : Is the distance the axle is off the center of the hangar, where your bushings meet.This measurement adjusts the angle at which your wheels turn. Think of it the same as a car turning vs a bus turning. Rake adjusts this ratio WITHOUT adjusting your baseplate angle. This is key due to the baseplate angle defines how your hangar actually rotates on the baseplate. EX: 35* rakeless vs 42* with negative rake = the wheels turn at the same ratio but the hangar response and rotation is "slower" on the 35* rakeless truck
@@hopscotch6596 I tried posting a link to a research project about Rake, Lean and Turn radius, but UA-cam or the app won’t allow for it to stay up. It is super interesting. From Lunar Boardworks. “Nonnovation Blog - Rake (part 1)”
Wow, been looking for a way to put this in words for a long time. I’m glad you made this because now I can reference this when I explain that I love rakeless Cals for freeride
Hell yeah dude. Been considering some rakeless cals for a bit
I've been reading a blog called "changing angles" where the geometry and math of trucks is explained. From what I could understand, the rake doesn't have an effect on the lean vs turn ratio, but it has an effect on the force vs lean ratio.
Like the amount of force you push down with to how much the board leans? I would assume that would be all about bushing hardness
This is correct. The rake effectively changes the stability and resistance to leaning.
Nice breakdown. Also, I spent like 2m tryna clean my monitor before realizing the dots are in your vid lol
haha little crusty out here
Very good video explanation! Explaning the steering ratios really helped picture how the rake vs rakeless respond.
Different tools for different situations
Wise words. Another solution is to make the center HUGE and add tons of rake. That's the new school way (Rojas or Scythe)
Interesting perspective. Always felt that the "if the truck is going ot be good midslide" was determined by how much "center" the trucks had. I have no problems at all holding big standies on high rake trucks (other factors considered), especially if they have loads of center.
Which is why I think trucks like Rojas are so op for freeride. Massive center as I've heard a lot of people say.
I'll give rakelss and negative rake a try at next opportunity thanks to this video :)
Rojas are a little different from everything else. Hard to compare
I totally agree, more centre is what I have found to be a game changer for standies. Centre, or even just straight up stability. I know that for me slightly harder bushings make standies easier, and softer bushings make them less forgiving. At least on a slalom setup. However, that is at the expense of your initiation because you can’t turn as easily.
Lean:Turn ratio does not change with rake. Rake only increases leverage and helps “tip” you over as you lean in the first few stages of lean. It definitely has an effect on slides though. And placement of wheel loading.
The rake does NOT affect lean/turn ratio - for a given single axis truck, the lean/turn ratio is fixed. For the trucks with positive rake, when you lean, the height of the truck will be lowered, so the gravity will help you apply more force to the hanger to lean/turn, that's why it makes you feel the truck turn more.
@@kaiyuan-wang not sure I understand how the trucks height becomes lowered
@@hopscotch6596 I should have put it this way: the deck will be lowered. changingangles.com/2019/07/15/rake-doesnt-change-axle-turn/, the animation illustrates how the deck moves vertically while the truck is leaning/turning. The handling of a bicycle works in a very similar way, www.renehersecycles.com/trail-does-not-make-a-bike-stable/
*Great description, Leverage is everything*
👌🏽
If rakeless trucks feel 'dead', how does negative rake feel? Considering flipping the hangers on my topmounted raked Cal 45s for freeriding...
The biggest difference you'll feel is the ride height but the turn is lively but different than positive. Just try it
I rode negative rake k5 for 3 years and they were hella stable but with minimal grip
It costs you nothing to try them. More stability, lower ride height, less turn, less “lively” because the rake is working against you in the turn now.
Can I use negative only for the back truck ?
Sounds logical isn’t it?
I see racers do this but I don't fully know the results of full neg rake. If you're wanting to apex corners, the front should still be pos rake
12mm rake, I rode calibres, among other cast trucks, for the first couple years, k3's for 7 years and trimmed k1's for 5 years. ZM-1 is cheat codes.
Great explanation. thanks.
I feel like the new Aeras (P2 and K6) come with really high rake, I believe it's around +5mm or so, but many riders seem to do standies on them quite well too. I wonder why. Does it have to do with the extra long pivot? Or does it have to do with the tight-ish bushing seat design? They also don't come with stock insert bushings, so there's no extra stabilization at the kingpin either.
Can't speak to K6's but P2's only have 5 which isn't much. Same as a paris truck
@@hopscotch6596 How much do you consider high? Scythe goes up to 11, but then their design is unique and probably feels way different to most RKP's. Seismic Aeons have 9, which is a lot, but maybe the unique bushing shape works to make a 9mm rake hanger feel "normal". Rogue slaloms and Don't Trip Dangers have 8, which is probably the highest traditional RKP rake, but they are both narrow, slalom trucks (with rear offset zero or negative). Highest symm-hanger RKP rake, that I currently know of, is 5, hence why I say 5 is really high rake already.
@@nickamarit I consider over 5 high. 5 is in the middle and is very common amongst many trucks. Under 5 is low
@@hopscotch6596 There's no freeride RKP with more than 5mm tho. My 130mm chopped Randal R2's have a unique defect at the pivot that makes them have actual rake closer to 7mm than the 5mm they were designed with. They are pretty fun, but the rear outside wheel wants to lift quite easily, so there's 2 distinct stages of dive: normal rakey dive and then super dive once the board deweights the outside rear wheel. Pretty weird.
@@nickamarit yeah that's classic R2 casting. Not sure what you mean by freeride RKP but I still stand by high rake = hard to hold standups. There's some really good skaters who can do it with high rake trucks but that's because they prefer the cornering feel of them over their stability mid slide
Negative rake is also superior for fast pushing. It also self corrects small balance mistakes.
Negative rake does the same thing a wider rear tire on a motor bike does for stability. You do have more leverage with more negative rake also, so it can work your bushings more which makes them feel softer.
K3's were designed to be ran negative too.
Damn, boutta flip my K3's
Flipping my Bears tomorrow 🤟🏾
Could you rake the leaves with it if you can this is advanvced #supermustachepower
How much of the bushing seat shape and sidewalls plays into this feeling your describing mid sideways? Do you think it plays more of a part the rake? I wonder because rakelass cals hold sideways better and have steeper bushing seat sidewalls then the rakeless.
I would assume it plays the biggest or second biggest roll in holding a slide. It's a lean limiter so that will contain the high degrees of lean which contains the high degrees of rake. That's why a flat bushing seat allows so much depth of turn
@@hopscotch6596 so rake but flat cup bushing seat =?
@@kurtisderow7692 yeah basically
@@hopscotch6596Basically what?
@@kurtisderow7692 Deep bushing seat acts the same as a deep cupped washer. Limits the lean range. If the lean/turn ratio is 1/1, 2/2.5, 3/5, you never get that last 3/5 because the bushing seat cuts it off
Rake : Is the distance the axle is off the center of the hangar, where your bushings meet.This measurement adjusts the angle at which your wheels turn. Think of it the same as a car turning vs a bus turning. Rake adjusts this ratio WITHOUT adjusting your baseplate angle. This is key due to the baseplate angle defines how your hangar actually rotates on the baseplate.
EX: 35* rakeless vs 42* with negative rake = the wheels turn at the same ratio but the hangar response and rotation is "slower" on the 35* rakeless truck
🤙🏼⚡⚡🤙🏼
I have raked and rakeless cal III, the rakeless feels way better to me in the slide and as I ride them. I don't like how twichy the raked ones are.
Yeah made this discovery after feeling slalom trucks mid standup. Not good
NORMALIZE NEGATIVE RAKE
Good info, but music is pretty loud so it's hard to focus just on your voice.
True true. Better luck next time
Dude, Paris rake is 3mm. And lots amount of cast is same. Very small amount of cast is slightly bigger.
Replace the word “Lean” with “Effort” in this video and it’s valid.
Isn't the amount of "effort" you put into turning how much you "lean" off the board?
@@hopscotch6596 Not always. Rake adds leverage making the same amount of lean easier to achieve in the earlier stages of the whole range of lean.
@@samthespark I think we're talking about two different things with lean. I'm referring to the deck tilting as lean
@@hopscotch6596 Yep that is also what I’m using as the operational definition of lean.
@@hopscotch6596 I tried posting a link to a research project about Rake, Lean and Turn radius, but UA-cam or the app won’t allow for it to stay up. It is super interesting. From Lunar Boardworks. “Nonnovation Blog - Rake (part 1)”