How to ridgidize ceramic fiber blanket
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Ceramic blanket is a suspected carcinogen. For that reason it must be ridgidized to help protect you from it. This video shows you the process and how to make your own ridgidizer.
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This is a very helpful video and all viewers should pass on this video. Most people don't realize that this is necessary for using the ceramic blanket in a residential setting.
I had no clue how dangerous ceramic fiber blanket is.. I just built a forge, and opted to go with fiber blanket. Thank you so much for this info!!!!!!!!!!
you could get cerramic fibers on your clothing
I have been looking for rigidizing for dummy’s I knew I needed to do it but I didn’t know the needed steps thank you for this vid you earned a subscriber
TY much I'm glad it helped
2nd that cheers
Ive learned tons over the course of becoming a glass crafter, with no help, money, only used recycled materials. First I made a table, blacksmithed a bunch of tools. 13 months later im doing my brick homemade Hotbox (kiln) . Its parts of from a junked BBQ. I spent money 170$ on a torch,bottles. I did buyn some ceramic wool blanket for my hot box. Since i dont want some mass manufactured thing newho. Anyhow i could write a story. Just buying silica ashes, or fumed silica, lolI learned a shit ton about oils and coatings and a world of oils and endless blends i never imagined. I hope someday people can have good times together without knowing whats gonna happen. I love cooking, its similarly creative. My slurry for keeping the coat from shedding was the silica powder, a touch of gypsum or pop, . I surf as well . As knowing resin/Epoxy/Fiberglass for repairing. The world is becomming asmaller place and less confusing the more i know and see and experience resins form, recrystalize, hardens. I lined by Top half today with Blanket and a shitton of Silicate.Yes Today.. I don't know nor think it will be much different than the reaction to make surfboard resin. once done. I saw all its uses from some ad and was impressed. This stuf weights grams for a quart of it. truely awaiting results.
TY for the introduction , I t helped me progress
Many thanks for your video. I purchased the fumed silica to rigidize the kaowool and will fire the kaowool/silica/food colour after it dries. I will add refractory cement after. Sincerely appreciate your experience and knowledge. Ralph, Ottawa, Canada.
Hey man i just recently started a job as assistant into making these furnaces. The thing is, the guy is kinda uncautious and when he throw these things on the table a lot of dust comes up! Im using a mask but it doesnt closes too well, i tried 2 masks and it was a little better, but i felt some chest pain later in the day... i got very scared. I dont want to lose this job, but im also an athlete as hobby and damn... im too scared of lung problems!!! Could you give me any advices to protect myself???? Do you think a couple months of exposure is enough to have problems??? I really need the money. Im gonna tell my boss that i believe we should treat it way more carefully otherwise i cannot stay.
@@emoxanax a P100 filter on a respirator will protect you from that. Under $50 if you need to buy it for yourself, but that really should be covered by the company.
@@VoidedWarranty yeah i ended up lefting. The guy had some chronic cough, he burned that shit with no ventilator inside the damn place... anyways! Fucked up. Hahah
I started a new slave job tho. Hopefully things will sort out.
Thanks
Seems like you could have skipped the bottle sprayer and just dunked the blanket material into the mixing pan.
thanks for the info man, saved me some cancer
This was extremely helpful, you saved me a bunch of money, thanks
Outstanding straight to the point👏👏👏👍👍👍👍👍
You should definitely put on your respirator BEFORE you pour out that silica in an indoor space. Did you see that plume? 💀
fumed silica is bio solvable and no dange.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 That is not true. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica#Health_issues
@@kkuhn from your own link " Fumed silica is not listed as a carcinogen by OSHA, IARC, or NTP. " It is very easily airborn. so the only way those two things can coexist is if the particle is biosolvable
The cause of repeated exposure to fumed silica is Fibrosis. I wouldn’t misinform your viewers with such a hazardous statement.
nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1655.pdf
Not Wikipedia
Excellent video. Thank you!!!
i just wanted to say thanks to this man i did not know of the health risks of this stuff ive blindly jumped into it like i do most things in life but im going to start using protection and ive been using water glass to harden mine is that effective as your method i do get to welding temps but i made my own ribbon burner thats prob over kill
You are welcome and i'm glad you're taking the safety first approach
You never want to go without protection. In many types of situations.
Thanks for sharing this information. The forge I bought only comes with refactory (they call it refactory rigidizer). Is it not enough to just coat the outside with refactory cement? My guess is that if the refactory is damaged then the rigidizer will prevent the wool fibers from going airborne?
IMO no. rigidizer protects you from the blanket. refractory protects the blanket from you. If you are gentle to the refractory and never erode it away or break it so the blanket will always remain sealed then it's okay.
PLEASE READ:
DO NOT use fumed silica to rigidize your ceramic fiber blanket. I understand it is accepted by many "blacksmith experts". And I mean no disrespect towards the gentleman who made this video, or anyone else. It comes down to inorganic chemistry. Please read.
The reason we need to rigidize ceramic fiber blanket is to prevent the tiny silicate particles from entering our lungs. They are very bad. If you want more info on it, Google it.
Ceramic fiber is made from Silicon and oxygen bonds, basically. The silicon and oxygen may form many linked bonds (hence larger fiber) or they may form a few (invisible fiber). It's a mix. But, these fibers are not connected to each other very well. Think of a jar full of small marchmallows. That's fiber blanket. Now heat it up and melt off of it-that is rigidize blanket. Kind of.
To prevent the fibers from breaking off and entering our lungs we need COLLOIDAL SILICA. Colloidal silica IS NOT THE SAME AS FUMED SILICA ADDED TO WATER. IT IS NOT EVEN COMPRABLE. in fact, fumed silica is the exact same chemical structure as the silica dust you breath in. If you use fumed silica, you are only making the matter worse.
Colloidal silica consists of tons of silicon atoms bonded to oxygen atoms and hydroxyls, in a repeating manner. Over and over again. They are massive molecules. When you apply it to ceramic fiber it will bind to the oxygen atoms of the silica, hence literally binding each fiber to a very durable and sturdy mass that will not let go.
Please, do not use fumed silica for rigidizing. You are actually better off not using anything. Fumed silica is exactly what we don't want to breath. To make colloidal silica from fumed silica, you would have to add sodium hydroxide, heat it up to a ridiculous temp, then use diffusion or chromatography methods to isolate it, as well as the aid of catalysts. It is NOT made by adding water.
Stay safe. Verify what you are told. If you don't know how to verify it or are not willing to, pay a professional to do it.
post sources. I have posted the MSDS multiple times as my source to the safety. Post a source other than your addled brain.
I want to use a ceramic blanket to surround my RV generator compartment to keep heat out of the coach. After ridigizing do you think the ceramic blanket can be used by itself for this purpose?
no. if the rigidiser is not fired after application, it will eventually dry out and begin releasing from the blanket. If you were to heat it to 2k degrees after applying rigidiser then it will work. however it will not be very flexible. If you go that route I suggest prepping and firing a 2" square piece first so you can see how it behaves afterword. Also by adding more silica to your water mix the more "foam" like the resulting fired blanket will be.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 Thanks for the response. Well I agree with your logic and your's and other videos about ceramic insulation blankets have me convinced that I need another, more conventional solution to heat and sound insulation for my 1973 GMC Motorhome generator compartment. I went overboard in my zeal for heat insulation. There are other products better suited to my requirements. Now I'm stuck with a 12' x 2' x 1" roll and a jar of fumed Silica.
@@donjaksa4071 If its 12' by 2' its probably 2" thick. 1" is normally 25' by 2'. post it for sale locally. I assure you someone will buy it.
@@donjaksa4071 build a forge or 3 lol
Any idea of how much silica I need and how much refractory I need? I have a 3 burner from vevor that is 24" long by 5.6" wide and tall. I unpacked the thing and started hooking it up ot even aware that I needed to do any of this so I definitely appreciate your video on this!
I built a custom fireplace and am using ceramic blanket for keeping the exterior of the fireplace cool enough to touch. I have the Blanket sandwiched between two pieces of metal. Should I still rigidize it even though it’s not directly exposed?
It depends on if any airflow gets between the metal. If it is sealed and enclosed in metal in theory it's safe (it's kind of like asbestos as long as it is not disturbed in anyway it can not send anything airborn) if it is at all "open" yes it needs rigidised for safety.
Fumed Silica is also an inhalation hazard. Google "longest work in the English language." because that's what it causes.
Hello, thanks for the time to make this video. Any tips on applying the fumed silica to a round tank? Similar to the firebox of a woodburning stove, only difference is round and how to hold insulation in place?
I've built many round forges. if you cut the blanket as one long piece it will hold itself in place. As for the ridgidizer nope just paint/pour/spray it on the blanket will soak it up
Thank you for the information. I had putchased factory-made rigidizer since I was unable to find that fumed silica in Europe. Following the information in the comments I have been able to find aerosil 200, used as thickener for epoxy/poliester resins. So you have a new subscriber. Could you speak about mixing proportions with eater/food colorant?
the food coloring's only purpose is for visual aid. It allows you to tell you have fully covered and saturated the blanket. Use as much as you need to achieve this purpose.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 Oops... I realize I wrote a typo. I mean water, not eater, and my question was about how many fumed silica is to be mixed with water. I see in the video you don't even bother to measure it, but it would be useful to have at least a ballpark figure, so one can do the calculations about how much fumed silica to buy.
BTW, aerosil 200 safety datasheet recommens to use the respirator while mixing
@@betibetekaberanduetxea1445 gotcha. use at least 1 cup fumed silica per 1 liter of water. you can use more if you like. Just make sure that it remains a liquid and you don't add so much silica it becomes a paste.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 OK. Thank you very much. I have been interested in this for some years now, bout yours is the first channel where these things are explained so plainly and clearly. Keep the good work on. I'm going to recommend your channel to anyone interested. Greetings from Europe
So I just ordered a devils forge furnace and didn't even know about this stuff am I supposed to remove all the ceramic wool from inside the furnace to do this to it or can I leave it in there while I coat it?
You can leave it in. Just be sure that you are wearing a respirator when working with it. On a side note. I have never used the refractory sent with the devils/hells forges so I can not speak to it particular. However all refractories I have ever used that I would call "quality" stick better to the blanket when it is "buttered" or wet from the ridgidizer.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 blanket?
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 im sorry buddy but I don't have any experience at all doing this and noone to train me so any advice you would give someone who literally knows nothing and just got a furnace in the mail shoot
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 i subscribed to your channel and will be giving you a shout out on my channel for you letting my subscribers know who you are and to check you out
Thankyou. I'm happy to answer any questions you have that's the point of this channel. If it's something I don't feel I've covered well enough in a video I'll make a new one for it. Blanket, is as in ceramic fiber blanket(or wool). It is the white fluffy stuff inside the forge. That is what you want to apply the ridgidizer too.
Thank you for this! Can a second spray coat be applied after the first? Just want to make sure I got everything pretty well.
Use as many coats as you feel is needed to properly coat and protect you.
Can this be fired in the forge or does it have to be done out side of the forge.
It can be fired in the forge. I routinely put refractory on before firing.(refractory tends to stick better to wet blanket) it takes about 1800F for silica to start to become crystalline.
Do I have to rigidizer the whole furnace if my furnace uses heating coils instead of propane?
And should I fire it using actual fire before using it?
rigidizer protects you from the blanket, your heat source is not important. fire as in bring to heat, it doesn't need to be actual flames.
Can I use aerosil 200?... cause I'm informed that it's also fumed silicate
don't know sorry
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237
I'm just gonna try it anyway... then maybe I'll give my feedback in the comments
So what is the ratio? about 50% fumed silica % water?
Add "A few drops of what"? Duco? Zuko? What did you add from the small tube`
food coloring
If you have a bottle that doesn't wanna spray after you've been spraying it, squeeze the bottle as you spray. It should work.
Can i use this ceramic fiber blanket for exhaust system?
do you mean as an insulation to shield the piping? or do you mean forming the blanket in to the piping itself? either is possible especially if you coat it in a refractory cement after. Before attempting however I would highly recommend consulting the manufacturer to make sure that it will hold up for the particular type of work you need.
Tell me agin why you need to fire the C Blanket before using it in a Forge?
to cure what ever you put on. firing rigidizer causes the fumed silica to bind to the blanket. firing the refractory cure's it and makes it much more resistant to thermal shock.
So he waited at least min 24 hours before he fired it? Am I correct?
The silicate in water is basically "pottery glaze". It will dry to a clear hard solid, but if you don't fire it, moisture from the air will attack it, pitting it. I think the firing is not a chemical reaction, but rather something like driving off water hydrates or such, as in firing bricks, but I'm not a chemist. Similar silicate solution was coated on the carbon-carbon leading edges of the Space Shuttle wings. It melts around 1200 F (like glass) but still provides thermal protection as a liquid and likely also gives environmental protection.
nope. As the silica is fired it turns to cristabolite(sp). this form bonds it to the blanket. if left untreated at this point. as you use the cristabolite(sp) would clump and break off exposing the blanket under and making it unsafe. However because we coat the treated blanket in castable refractory it is not able to break off and sits there. over time eventually even coated in refractory it will breakdown (this is why forges must be relined) However the silica will not melt untill it cross the 3k+F threshold. behind a good refractory it will never reach that temp. www.quartzpage.de/gen_mod.html
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237
Thanks for the reply. I was probably thinking of the "softening point" of silica glass, which is 1550F, whereas the melting point is 2075 F and when transitioned to quartz (SiO4) becomes 3101 F. I tested some silica solution 15 years ago, which was provided by the company who made the Space Shuttle carbon-carbon wing edges to see if I could bond thermocouples and strain gages with it. It worked, forming a hard clear coating, but after sitting 6 months in my office (unfired) it turned milky and brittle, which I assumed was from moisture in the air, but perhaps another reaction over time. A higher-temperature fiber is alumina, which in pure crystal form is sapphire - Al2O3, 2nd hardest to diamond. In nature, impurities make it the sapphire or ruby gem. Alumina fibers are used to insulate thermocouple wires (Nextel is one brand), though is brittle and the fibers are short so needs a binder. Alumina might be the main constituent of these ceramic blankets. The company also mentions kaolin, which is the coating on glossy paper, also termed "China Clay".
Do I need a rigidizer and a coating like hellcoat or can I use one or the other?
ridgidizer protects you from the blanket. refractory protects the blanket from you. In reality refractory does a lot more than just that. I believe both are essential to building a safe forge. I have never used hellcoat. I recomend. Duracon32, Kastolite 30, missou, or satanite. i have used all of these and they are all work well.
What's the difference between silica and diatomaceous earth??
don't know.
I put ny rigidizer on let it dry an hour then added refractory and only now saw this video, what can i do? I got mine in a kit for my forge
So I wait for it to dry before I fire it up, right?
if you are referring to rigidiser it is your choice. you can fire it wet or dry (if you fire it wet you will get steam and it will choke up your burners some) if you are talking refractory absolutely let it dry and cure before firing and be sure to follow the cure process for the refractory you are using.
Does anyone have a link for fumed scilica? the old link looks like the product isnt running anymore.
www.amazon.com/Fasco-Epoxies-Cabosil-Silica-Thickener/dp/B0756L83XR/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1R7Q2MG1RCF70&keywords=fumed+silica&qid=1658969180&sprefix=fumed+silic%2Caps%2C117&sr=8-3
That fumed silica is not friendly stuff! Works, though.
I'm about to do the insulation step on a forge I'm building, would it work to just run the burners on the "firing" step?
yes thats how i fire. however you have to do it in steps. heat to around 1k and hold for 1/2 an hour heat to around 1500 and hold for 1/2 an hour final fire get to forge weld temps and hold for a 1/2 hour. letting cool to the touch between each fire.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 thank you for the advice!
Jesus Christ 😂
News story next day "man with blue hands found in dead in basement"
Hey why did you add food colour can tell me
its because you need the silica to soak in and penetrate. by adding food coloring you can see where you need to get more so it will soak in.
could you provide an amazon link to the powder you used? Was it fumed silica?
www.amazon.com/Cabosil-Fumed-Silica-Gallon-Thickener/dp/B00VXVAAGE/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fumed+silica&qid=1610932343&sr=8-4
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 Thanks, just one question, for the firing fumed silica, is a torch really sufficient? Or that painted board needs to be fired in a kiln?
@@swaroopcool22 the torch will do it, but i usually apply the refractory with the blanket wet as it sticks better then just fire the entire forge up to temps for the curing of the refractory.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 in this case do you think having the ceramic blanket coating on the inside of the kiln a better option ? Or is there any specific reason to use the blanket on the outside?
@@swaroopcool22 I'm confused by your question. Your Forge/kiln "layers" going outside to in should be. Shell/Rigidised Ceramic blanket/Refractory(Kastolite 30/missou)/IR coating like plistex/itc100(if you intend to use one)
How hard is the blanket after it is dried and been fired? I am looking for something to insultate a metal box I am using for research (it is kind of like a toaster oven, but is losing heat like crazy) and was hoping to be able to either screw 4 panels of insulation together, or just bend them and place the blanket on back of the device, covering the top and sides to prevent extensive heat loss. Do you think using something like the ceramic wool blanket would be my best option, or is there something else that would work? The box is 34.7cm wide, 22.6cm deep and 37.8cm tall with a door that needs to open on the front and the insulation needs to be removable for making improvements on the device.
Thanks in advance
if make the ridgidizer out of a LOT of fumed silica and a little bit of water. you create a dry water. when that is fired it is kind of like a bouncy dense sponge. However it is important to note that it is not meant to be used this way at all. once you have fired it, it should be covered in refractory to ensure you do not damage the blanket. Enough damage and you will release fibers
Hey thanks for the video, I didn't know this stuff existed. Of the store bought brands are there some that have more or less silica? Or what measurement should I be looking for? Also some say they're only good for heat up to 2300f which may not be as high as the my forge temp gets to. Any suggestions?
Thanks again
Can I use this to rebuild my fire box in my boiler like this and just cut the blanket to fit?
I have zero knowledge of boilers or there proper upkeep.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 ok. Thanks. I will read more into it. Once again thanks for the great video
So I’ve been building a furnace and I plan on putting ceramic fiber between the burn box and the outside layer of metal. Both sides are covered but the top and bottom 1” are open. Do I need to treat the whole blanket before installing? Or can I install it and spray the top and bottom than cure it with the burner and not worry about where the metal touches? Thanks in advance
why can they not be just dunked in quickly to the liquid
ceramic blanket is EXTREMELY absorbent. You can dunk them however it will take substantially more mix then just spraying/pouring on.
Hello
What is meant by the classification temperature of the ceramic fiber 1260?
What is the melting point of these fibers and what are their tensile strength properties?
that is all very dependent on the brand/style of ceramic blanket. Most of this data can be found on the MSDS for the blanket you purchase. This is particularly important for the melting point of the blanket, check with the maker for the specific blanket you purchase. The one I use in this video I believe is 8# 1" rated for 2800F
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237
Thank you so much for your answer
I wish Good luck to you
Id be fired on the spot if I tried to do this. We use this often for grease ducts and more
Is it a specific they of silica needed? Fume silica? In the process of ordering some ceramic blanket, the company I’m getting it from recommend their own zircon paint, £40 for 10L. These seems like a more sensible option, just struggling to find the product online
you need to make sure it is not listed as hydrophobic. Other then that it is just fumed silica. I believe the brand I use is cabosil. A zircon wash is the same kind of thing as ITC100. It will work to hold the particles down however it is just a surface coating and does not penetrate very far in to the blanket.
Thank you kindly!
@@harrybaldwin686 You are very welcome!
So how did you get the respirator to seal with your facial hair?
isnt silica a carcinogen too though?
fumed silica is not fumed-silica.net/downloads/xunyu-fumed-silica-msds.pdf
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 is there an updated 'SDS' sheet??
I just made a whole triple batch of water glass...
Whats your take on painting the ceramic fiber with a few coats of water glass?
waterglass melts at or under 2000f depending on how you made it. I really don't recommend it at all.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237
Maybe a little off topic: what might the results be, for a swatch of 1" kaowool, saturated with fireclay, compressed to about 1/8" - 1/4", dried and fired? Would that suffice as a kiln shelf, or insulation panel?
@@springbloom5940 you are in essence referring to a ceramic wool fiber board. you are better off to purchase the real deal than to try and home make one of those.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237
I get that. The goal of this project is build a small kiln from scrap and expedient materials. A shelf would cost more than the whole thing.
@@springbloom5940 got it. for that application. some morgan firebricks are cheap and much better. but if push came to shove you can compress the blanket and cast it inside a refractory such as kastolite30 to make due.
Just a question from a newbie. can i use any silicate like the plant and garden stuff on Amazon??
does the fumed silica re-melt when the furnace is running?
Can you fire it right away? Why do you have to wait to fire the blanket?
Can fumed silica be mixed with sodium silicate for a better bond? Just wondering because I have some.
sodium silicate has a melting point of
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 Okay, thanks!
A little over dramatic about the dangers of K-wool there bud.
that seems like too much, no? ive seen other youtubers spray a lot less
the idea is for the rigidiser to soak in. thats why you color it, that way you can see how far it has penetrated. I don't believe there is such a thing as over doing it in this stage. the more silica you get in the blanket the more bonded it will all be.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 that helps a lot, thank you-
thanks and GO BRONCOS!!!!! baby woooo hoooo
FIBRE
That just seemed sloppy
so you just made waterglass you can buy waterglass you can buy 5 ltr of the stuff for £15
you clearly do not know what waterglass is. Please do a quick google search on how to make it, you'll quickly understand your mistake.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 waterglass is sodium silica sulotion it is also used in fireworks to protect the cardboard tube from burning
@@ianspaintpot I repeat. please look up the process to make water glass. it is far more complicated than putting some fumed silica in water.
@@irondaggerblacksmithsupply1237 it may be more complicated but it is just same solution well it does the same job.
i know many people that have made there own kilns and they have used waterglass
@@ianspaintpot you are 100% wrong.
this is not waterglass. this does not work like waterglass. this is a fully different substance. I've been trying to be polite and direct you to do some research but apparently that doesn't work. so again YOU ARE WRONG. Please use google it will explain to you why.