Air guitarist for over 40 years here, this has been the trickiest into for me to master. It’s not a mistake, it’s just funky overload in the bassist fingers nerve endings.
As an engineer, and also 25+year musician, if you told me that was intentional, I'd make you do it again and not fucking flub it. But ok, it's intentional....
@@jtubef8620 End of the day, everyone could have a dick measuring contest of who would do what, but its already happened, and mistake or no mistake, sounds pretty sweet.
Definitely NOT a mistake, it's not even out of time. As a bass player, it's clear, obvious syncopation. I would even go to far as to say the intro does NOT work half as well without that syncopation. It creates a moment of suspense (placement of rhythmic stresses or accents where they wouldn't normally occur) adding to the buildup right before the song settles into the groove.
It’s not syncopated, it’s out of time, there’s a difference. I’m pretty amazed this is even disputed, I just always thought it was a mistake. You can clearly hear the delay and when the note hits it’s off time.
To me it felt like a “Bob Ross mistake“ where it’s more of a happy accident, adding a bit more spice and character to the art, giving it more personality and a less typical feel
Exactly, he took it out of the groove and brought it back in again, all in perfect timing. It's a bit cocky but fun and groovy. You hear this often in older soulful house music productions. Can't wait for this guy to come across a J Dilla production only to implode from the the "drunken drums" patterns.
If the origial bassist doesn't even play the line live himself, then it was obviosly not planned. But that doesn't mean it wasn't intentional in the recording or that it it isn't good.
Whether intentional or not, it certainly IS syncopated and falls in perfectly in the offbeat. If you think of the bass as more of a rhythm instrument, it makes way more sense as to why it wouldn't always line up with the horns. If it sounds good, then it's not a mistake, it's improvisation, or letting the rhythm and the funk take hold of you.
It doesn't always have to line up with the horns, but in that specific part, the horns are playing a clear accent on the and of 4, whereas the bass is playing the two 16th notes around it. It creates this kind of a "rhythmic dissonance" that sounds a bit out of place, or at least very unexpected. Whether the bass should line up with certain horn hits depends on the context. I think in this context it would make more sense if the bass played that one hit together with the horns. But it may be that the horns were recorded separately, so the band wasn't really thinking about this when they recorded it.
@@JuiCeBoX19 Yeah, that seems likely that the bassist for Earth, Wind & Fire isn't a good bassist and it was up to the UA-camrs to set the record straight
Exactly, Again he prob thinks text book when it comes to rhythm so you get responses like this. Also he has fooled alot of people into thinking the bass player did something wrong when he is one of the top bass end players. DEF not a mistake.
My two cents as a musician: Just because something comes out unintentionally does not qualify it to be a mistake. I’ve gone for plenty of licks that I end up flubbing. On occasion, a flub will turn into something cool enough that it doesn’t matter. So I roll with it. We’ve all been there
I studied music performance in college, we had this song for our funk night, I played everything from ear and I played this live and the lecturer shredded me for playing the “iconic bass line wrong” so I played him the track and he’d never noticed it before. This guy had been teaching for nearly as long as the track had been out. Felt so proud of myself😊
If it was thought of as a mistake, they could have easily muted the bass track for that split second during mixdown and no one would have really noticed. Also, that it was not addressed probably means it wasn’t seen as a big deal.
Not a mistake. You can hear Verdine anticipate the "i" by playing a ghost note on the preceeding beat, beat three. It also pretty neatly slots around the horns. Lastly, funk and disco is very tightly orechestrated, especially of this calibre. Al Schmitt who engineered EW&F records remarked how long they would spend cutting vocals alone on those LP's, sometimes months! This was very clearly a deliberate fill/variation that was deemed groovy and left in by the producer and his peers.
This reminds me of when I was in a Miles Davis tribute band. I was transcribing stuff straight from the records and I did dots for Autumn Leaves from Cannonball Adderley's album Something Else. It starts with a long bass riff intro before the main melody, with a simple horn line. The trumpet player in the band says to me 'you've really gone for authenticity, you've even transcribed the cracked note (in Miles's line).' Up to that point it hadn't even occurred to me that it was a clam, I was so used to hearing it that it was just part of the music- he heard it differently. To me, the 'mistake' was so baked into the music that it would have sounded weird without it.
Deffinitly not a mistake. This is literally how to play against the rythem. It's fully syncopated. I can't even conceive why you would think its a mistake
yeah its def syncopated, its coming in exactly on the `and`. Count it 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, its in. the professional friends who said it isn't are idiots.
100% correct. Sounds natural to me. And every other note is exactly in time, if the third note was a mistake then the forth note would also be off time too because there's no time to recover. No way this is a mistake.
This has been killing me for years. Never heard it isolated before. Isolated, it's fine, in the track, doesn't work. I've been playing bass for over 40 years. Audio engineer for 25. But I worked with Earth Wind and Fire, and I can totally see Maurice saying "it's fine, I like it!"
I agree with this comment. I think the only reason it ‘doesn’t work’ (is off) is because everyone is slightly out of time and it’s a very tight pocket to place that rhythm.
I think you are correct. I've produced many recordings and this is the type of time issue you hear often on a take that you don't use. Still, it's kinda cool.
I'm not sure it's a mistake and here's why. A band with such incredible production techniques and polished arrangements as EWF in the late 70s wouldn't let it slip in the mix and re-record that part. They usually added horns after the bass was recorded, so Verdine couldn't really lock in with the horns. Also, Larry Dunn's 2012 interview for The Atlantic says this: "We would go into the studio and we would cut what was called the basic track. The basic track would be the rhythm section. It would be either Maurice or Fred White or Ralph Johnson on drums. On bass would be Verdine, Al McKay, and Johnny and me on keyboards. [...] It would take about six hours usually. We had to make sure that groove was undeniable and that everything was tight. [...] We were recording on two-inch tape. Once in a while, take No. 3 from the intro to the bridge was killin' and then from the bridge on out it wasn't as great. But on take No. 6 from the bridge on out would be great. The guy would take the razor blade and cut the tape and then splice it together. And, then we would have our masterpiece: the basic track. After the basic track, we would start overdubbing. [...] After we got that great groove from beginning to end, then we would start overdubbing additional keyboards, synths, horns, other guitar parts, and background and lead vocals. From that point on, we would mix it by making sure each part was at the right level." Hope this helps, keep up the good work. Cheers!
It's totally right to me. Not a mistake. This is simply groove, swing...It's not a rule or a law that the bass should be locked in with the horns. I don't get what it's so strange about it...
I totally agree with Fresh Sly. I'm guitar player and played decades in party bands and this sounds as a pretty solid variation. Just a bass player having some fun, with this variation he's flashing a 16th groove. It's definitely not a mistake, as a skilled bass player you don't want to leave a mistake on a record.
That fact that the tempo doesn't line up with the grid is exactly why IT'S PERFECT! What is Soul Music without the freedom to express your Soul? *De-Quantize your brain and be free!*
Dude it lines up perfect and feels awesome! When you ‘fixed’ it, it sounded way worse. It’s not a mistake he’s just messing around with the rhythm. He’s still perfectly in time, just fucking around with the rhythm. It’s completely deliberate. Imo. Verdine would not have just let such an obvious ‘mistake’ slide if he didn’t want it in there.
@@somethingbl Idk honestly those obvious mistakes that they kept are just normal, and it would be almost impossible to have a one take track with none of those, they don’t prove that the one in the intro is a mistakes, to me it sound just like a rythmic variation, if you listen to the live versions of their songs they always have in a measure the hits that they gotta do in sync and the parts where they just play around
Hey bro some people do not understand what “feeling the music” means. It’s the difference between greatness and perfection. Most great musicians are imperfect, most perfect musicians are not great! AKA… feel the Groove. I don’t hear mistakes, I hear groove.
If that is a mistake that is one fucking awesome mistake. Also listening these two version at the same time is the perfect way to hear what was best in before and what's horrible now.
Nice analysis, but I have an idea. Maybe when they sat down & recorded the backing track, the score for the brass & strings hadn't been written yet, so the bass fill seemed right at the time, but when they added the orchestra, no one noticed it didn't fit in the groove anymore. I was thinking that because listening to the original stems, you can't hear the brass "bleed-through" on the bass, guitar, piano tracks, or even the drum track (where bleed can't be missed), so those parts are at least overdubbed, if not written later. And, if you take the brass & strings & such out, the bass fill lines up. Very nicely, actually. So that's what I think happened, not a mistake, just a weird quirk of writing the song.
Somebody posted this interview excerpt with Dunn in The Atlantic and I thought you'd enjoy it "Sometimes I would bring a tune in and the music would already be there. So-we would go into the studio and we would cut what was called the basic track. The basic track would be the rhythm section. It would be either Maurice or Fred White or Ralph Johnson on drums. On bass would be Verdine, Al McKay, and Johnny and me on keyboards. And we would cut the basic track. It would take about six hours usually. We had to make sure that groove was undeniable and that everything was tight. Back then, they didn't have hard disc recording. We were recording on two-inch tape. Once in a while, take No. 3 from the intro to the bridge was killin' and then from the bridge on out it wasn't as great. But on take No. 6 from the bridge on out would be great. The guy would take the razor blade and cut the tape and then splice it together. And, then we would have our masterpiece: the basic track. After the basic track, we would start overdubbing. The basic track is like a cake and the overdubbing would be icing and sprinkles on the top. After we got that great groove from beginning to end, then we would start overdubbing additional keyboards, synths, horns, other guitar parts, and background and lead vocals. From that point on, we would mix it by making sure each part was at the right level and at the right panning in the speakers and the right compression. It was definitely a science."
This is obviously the correct answer, but given the Funk of that era no one would’ve heard it as a mistake after the arrangement was filled out. It’s just a spicy syncopation and was a very common thing in Funk back then.
Hearing this for the first time(not the song, just the baseline)isolated and not isolated, it does not sound anything like a mistake and is good syncopation to my ears. But I love how you presented it, such a fun video and great discussion! Surprised how polarizing this really is
You said it's dancing around the beat - you're exactly right, it is dancing around it; the horn hit is on the And of the beat, and the bassline dances around it, hitting the E & A of the beat. It brings out the horn hit even more honestly. I'm more than sure they all had a discussion about the part; as a bass player, I know I would bring attention to it and explain why it works (and force the band to be okay with it if they didn't dig it.)
At 6:16 he doesn't play the 'mistake' but rather the whole band hits that syncopated rhythm together. Clearly they liked his offbeat part so much they got the whole band to join in.
@@diggingthegreats Absolutely. I listen to a lot of Michael multitracks and I notice he was flat a few times. Thing is his harmonies are so smooth that they cover up those small mistakes.
Man, this is a hard one for me. The fact that he only does it once lends _some_ credibility to idea that it's a mistake, but nothing about it feels like a mistake. As a bass player of 20 years, that part hits right. It's the exact sort of rhythm-play I do all the time when I write parts. So much so, that it feels completely natural, like it's exactly what I'd do (and no, I didn't grow up listening to this song). After 3 bars of the same line, us bass players have an incessant need to add a bit of variety. Nothing about it feels "off". Syncopated, yes. But while it's not absolutely grid-perfect, it's not sloppy either. One big reason it doesn't feel like a mistake is the number of notes he plays. If it were a mistake, that extra attack wouldn't be there. It's not like he accidentally used two fingers, and then also accidentally did a super slow flam with them. It's just too modified for it to be unintentional. It would be an absolutely bizarre mistake.
Definetly not a mistake, and grooves really well too. I'd say 7:58 is not a mistake either and he even repeats the same line at 8:10, the small lick is again played in time and in key, and fits in really well.
In 2020 I was hired by the label (Sony) and the band to remix September. I did put things on a grid via the elastic audio function in Pro Tools, as I was changing the drums, but kept pretty much everything else intact, and tried to leave some natural swing to the tracks. That being said…I did “fix” the notes in question, and was on the fence about it, but ultimately decided that with my more regimented groove it didn’t sound right to me. Listening to and editing the bass and all other parts, we need to realize that these type of players were not going for Steely Dan like perfection, or what we know now with DAW editing. They were 100% groove. I've been fortunate to remix tracks for Motown artists and Philidelphia International records, and there are indeed some clams on the recording, but you don't really hear them unless you solo the track. Anyway, the band loved the remix, and I spoke with Verdine after it was released. I didn’t mention the (possible) mistake, nor did he. I now wonder if he was relieved that is was corrected? You can find the remix here on UA-cam (VEVO).
Everything the Beatles ever did has a wikipedia page. Always bugged me that music by a lot of these incredible soul, funk, rnb,hip hop musicians, was not as well documented. I think your channel goes a long way in filling in that void and that's why I believe it's going to be huge. Keep preaching the gospel.
@RealSweetKid Would if I could. Music journalism or journalism of any kind is not really my strong point. That's why I appreciate this channel for what it's doing.
I really don't think it's a mistake, I think it was just a fun little syncopated thing the bass player decided to do, and maybe even improvved it in the moment. You mentioned the way it dances around the horn hit and honestly I think that's super cool, not evidence of a mistake to me at all. It's also possible that he didn't mean to play it in the take (i.e. a mistake) but when they heard it back they really liked the way it sounded so intentionally kept it that way. I guess it's hard to know for sure but as you said, if it sounds good it is good, and I think that little bit sounds great (as does the rest of. the song of course).
@@diggingthegreats That’s the best part then man!! As long you’re having fun, keep doin what you’re doing, cause a lot of people (including me) are having a lot of fun with it too!!
It definitely isn't a mistake, IMO. Stuff like this happens frequently on old funk tracks. It is a way of keeping interest in the groove by adding little variations here and there, either by altering the rhythm, the notes, or both.
This song is absolute perfection! It's the epitome of Funk! My favorite song in the whole wide world! I see no mistake here. It's a beautiful syncopated transition. Who says everything has to line up perfectly? The world would be a boring place if it did.
If any percussion instrument (including the hi-hat) hits any subdivision of the meter then it is available for the bassman to play off of and accent when bringing the funk! Lord have mercy!!!!!!
I'm a bass player and have often squeezed notes closely around drum beats, making the drum beats sound like ghost notes that I'm playing, even though I'm not. You can make a two-note BOMP BOOMP sound like piki-BOMP-p-BOOMP. It sounds like I'm playing a much cooler lick that I'm actually playing. The fact that it's Verdin White doesn't make it any easier to decide if it was a mistake or not. He's so good, I understand the argument that everything is intentional. But, he's also so good that he can leave something unintentional in if it works.
What a well constructed argument that states if it was a mistake it, it still sounds good. Surely the youtube community will point that out. *looks at comments (bassist experts coming out the woodwork as if someone spit on their mother's face) "tHiS iS nOT a MiSTakE!" 😂
I was at the peak of my musical career as a bass player at that time -- Funk R&B, Fusion, like that. First up in the morning was Franz on 40 bpm, make the click disappear by clapping so in time that the clap covers the click perfectly, you don't hear the click -- 20 minutes of it, 7 days a week. When I heard this back then it sounded perfectly natural to me, a syncopation put there to set up the downbeat that follows. As a matter of fact, if you listen to a lot of EWF, you'll hear this type of rhythmic figure used frequently, it adds interest. As far as wandering around, EWF did wander a lot more than most bands of the time -- race to the chorus -- drag back into the verse. I laid a lot of tracks on 2" tape in those days, and ya' I get the "leave it in there" aspect. However, not for me to say whether that figure was or wasn't intentional, just sayin' there was a lot of counter syncopation rhythm going on in that era. Check out Chuck Rainey on the Dan stuff, he very often doesn't hit with the kick, or Rocco and Garibaldi in Tower, things were a lot more interesting back then, maybe some of it WAS mistakes, but there was a lot of beauty there too, as you say :)
It does line up with the band. its a syncopated variation of his bassline. It's obviously not a mistake to anyone who understands rhythm, phrasing, and theme & variation.
I think you nailed it- not a “mistake” per se that needs a retake, but it sounds like he was going for a lick with the horns anticipation and didn’t quite nail it. since it doesn’t really go out of time or disrupt anything it was left in, but since it was played differently live I think that makes a great case for this analysis.
Clarification since some people think I’ve lost my mind: Verdine is amazing. If it feels good, it IS good. (Jello vs Cement) - The Original is the best version, obviously. I understand the rhythm is in time, it just doesn’t line up with the horns. But none of this ultimately matters because September is amazing. Also, you should really watch the rest of the video 😉
I liked the video, and especially hearing some other isolated segments of the bass line in that same recording, that showed other rhythmical variations to the basic line. Because that is exactly what makes music played by great musicians so interesting: even if the song is very repetitive by composition, it keeps sounding fresh, never boring. And that is not just human feel, but indeed deliberate variations that create that. I would be curious to find out for example if all drum fills in this song are played exactly the same, and if they weren't, whether that was by mistake, according you ;-) Thanks!
please make a complete video on De La Soul. They're such an amazing band in the art of mixing samples. De La Soul is funny, intelligent, artistic, authentic and refreshing
By definition it isn't a mistake, or they would not have kept it in the official release. Intention isn't the issue, either. All Happy Accidents are essentially sub-optimal - as in, definitely not what was being aimed for - yet most of the greatest inventions involve an accident or two. _Followed by refinement._ This bass anomaly wasn't refined, and so it seems sub-optimal to you and me. But _was_ it sub-optimal? You and me can say yes, but whatever outside musicians think about it's execution being an error (or not) isn't ultimately relevant. _That we're still listening to it 40+ years later is what's relevant!_
If you think the grid is everything, sure, it may sound like a mistake, but if it doesn't screw up the rest of the song, it doesn't really matter. Give me feel over quantization every time, especially in funk, R&B or any kind of grooving music.
Whatever the intention was, once they left it in it's no mistake. Such a hugely important band. Even bands like Banda Black Rio from Brazil show their influence.
I think it's a "mistake" but is indeed syncopated. If Verdine played the line perfectly, I personally think the intro would not be as great as it is. I believe someone heard that "hiccup", knew it was a mistake but it sounds good, adding this extra layer into the suspension of the 5, that they kept it and now it's forever attached to the song. Seeing them live, and watching so many EWF vides (they're my fav band of all time) knowing Verdine doesnt play that part tells me it was an accident. I love the "error" b/c it's an example of a sign of the times and is a testament to how marvelous EWF is! RIP Maurice White.
Don't think its a mistake, the bass is just hanging on steadfastly to that line in spite of what the horns are doing. Still works overall. Amazing to hear how great this whole song sounds even today.
I think it's genuinely the case of a happy accident. It is a mistake by modern standards but they probably had multiple takes and just took the one that sounded best. So in conclusion that probably wasn't exactly the plan and can be seen as a mistake because of it, but it just genuinely like you said doesn't matter because the entire band doesn't play to a rigid pattern instead a more soft swing making slightly offset notes not only less important on an individual member level but also highlighting an essential aspect of freedom in the sound of the song that in turn is reflected in the lyrics. This aspect of freedom is in turn lost in the Trolls version of the song making it overall more static and less complete.
I’ve been playing bass, drums and guitar professionally for over 30 years, and I think your take on it is probably right…. It was a spur of the moment mistake that didn’t disturb the groove and has now become canon for bassists - so it’s sacrilegious for them to breathe the word “mistake”.
I'm a bass player too and in my opinion it's hard to think at a that time there was a room for a such mistake because of the expensive cost of studio time and those old bands used to rehearsal for several months in order to mount the songs and get them fine, so probably was an inaccurate syncopation, otherwise Maurice White wouldn't never approved that result. Additional Verdine White plays the basslines live a little bit different because all EWF's songs have their own live arrangement so they're not as exact as the original records.
It's those kind of "mistakes" that I love about the music from this era, especially compared to almost all modern songs that are so sterile / clean and have no soul.. It's the authenticity of handmade music that I appreciate. You will rarely find that in modern recordings nowadays. I find that kind of perfectionism very boring and sad tbh.
its syncopated... the horns are on the (+) of 4, the bass hits are on the (e) and (a) of 4... perfectly locked in [ (e)=2nd 16th note, (+)=3rd 16th note, (a=)4th 16th note ] Source: Berklee bachelors degree and 22 years of playing experience
Earth Wind and Fire did a Christmas album in 2014 and did a new version of this song called 'December'. I don't know whether they re recorded every part or just the vocals but either way that bass bit is still in there. If it was a mistake to begin with surely they would have corrected it for this new version. Leads me to believe it was intentional.
This is an interesting exploration, regardless of all the weirdos in the comments like “it’s definitely totally intentional and sounds amazing and you don’t know anything about music if you say otherwise”
The interesting part about 'September' is the song starts at about 118bbm, you get to the 1st verse it's 122bbm, then the chorus at 126bbm and by the end of the recording when horns are going off it's 128bbm. Talk about playing by feel. Still one my all time favorites with V's bass lines. Love your show dude. You have a new subscriber..."Good stuff' as Johnny Carson used to say.
Imagine this from the original bassist perspective! They added a fun lil bit to the bass line to funk it up, that fits perfectly and sounds great. Then some UA-camr hears it and tells everyone it’s a mistake, because… hubris?
Great video! …drummer here, I don’t think it’s a mistake because it fits perfectly between the 8th notes. Glad you are listening so closely. I don’t think most people notice stuff like that. Even if it was a mistake it works well like you said.
I have listened to this song tons of times, and the bass part never once registered to me as a mistake until I saw this video while scrolling on YT. Crazy.
the thing i like about "mistakes" in music is that it really shows the humanity behind it. i hate when an song is too clean sometimes. i need to hear a chain rubbing against the mic, and on sample chop, some vinyl cracking yaknow
Legit found you yesterday and Ive already watched all of your videos. Your love for music, history, and everything in between is infectious. Thanks for doing what you do man.
It does work, isn't even off, and is the thing that gives the part it's vibe. It's loose like the rest of the song. This absolutely is a thing myself or a lot of bassists I know would choose to do once or twice throughout a song
I first discovered your videos a few days ago in that time you have grown a few thousand subscribers or nearly 20%. I hope that this is just the beginning of your much deserved growth for bringing attention and detail to the masters of their craft. As a musician I really appreciate the production quality and accessibility to non musicians of these great concepts.
love your channel. You mentioned De La Soul on a few occasions. Could you make a complete video on De La Soul because this group is so important in terms of humor, intelligence, art, positivism and incredible research of samples
I see it like this: in this era of computerised grid music, we almost forgot that playing music in a band is like having a conversation within a group of people (after all, musicians in a band are musically communicating with each other). In such a conversation, people sometimes make mistakes in a word, or use alternatives while expressing themselves. When the conversation ends, nobody will be bothered by those misspoken words anymore. If the overall feel and energy of the conversation was good, everybody goes home a little bit wiser. So, as you mentioned before, it’s all about the human feel. The musicians role in a band is (also), with their own playing, to make the other musicians sound better within the whole song, as part of the whole 'feel'. A little variation in one’s individual part won’t crush that fundament in general.
It's great you made a nice debate and conversation with lots of people about this little bit of bass playing. But, if you really want to put the nail in the coffin, at least for yourself, why not see if you can reach out to Verdine and ask him directly, "if he remembers..." :)
Thats not a mistake its off on purpose... Actually perfect 16 triplets and his GROOVE ... Thats why the other musicians wrote the mistake down on sheet music because its not a mistake at all its off intentionally ....VERDINE WHITE his whole style is loose and intentionally off ..... no mistakes. Dope content keep it going
Lol at the comments, trying to defend the bassline by saying it's perfectly in time, when they can't even properly count it themselves... Those are NOT triplets
For obvious reasons, I am extremely interested in this discussion, although I am fairly certain I won't be able to understand it due to fact I am not a musician. However, I have detected an indisputable timing error in one of EW&F's songs, one with which many of you will not be familiar¹. I will post the result here if anyone is interested 1. I mean to say that you won't be familiar with the song, not the type of error
I’ve been listening to this song since it came out and I always noticed this and it bothered me. Decades later when I learned about editing 2” tape, I assumed it was a bad edit that worked so they kept it.
Some of the most innovative grooves come from "mistakes." And even if it is truly a mistake, he's a human making human music. Make electronic music if you want everything mathematically synced. Ps. Nothing against electronic, I'm a big fan of the genre. I'd argue that perfect quantization is a subjective stylistic choice as long as you're not just using it as a crutch to avoid growing your skills Edit: typo
You know, if you frame this in its _present_ historicity, it's a precursor to the style of funk sampling that caught on in the midwest's hiphop scene. I mean, that sort of hesitation is the kind of finite detail that set off J Dilla to embrace the capacity of funk syncopation with his MPC. So I'm going to say that, through the dialectical process of time, it's one of the critical syncopations in funk bass history.
as a B-list session guy, it does sound like a finger slip, but half of the sessions I worked on, a lot mistakes stay in, as they fit. but at the same time, we also get told to walk around a bit, to break up the monotony of the bassline and forget to re-create half of that on live performances hell, over half the tracks ive done i don't even remember how to re-create as a 1 to 1
It's not a mistake It's a hint to signify the end of the 4 bar section or the end of the hook. Just something extra to create that emphasis between the verse and the hook.
you are one of the greatest youtube channels dedicated to music, me and i’m sure everyone else who watches these sees how much you love what you do. keep it up man!
I taught a class at a community College and always showed it as one of two mistakes to teach critical listening. The second mistake is one of the trumpets squeaks a little during the outro. But loved seeing this video, reminds me of a good time in my life! Thanks for this!
There are at least two kinds of mistakes in music: failures of technique, and failures of judgment. While Verdine absolutely did not flub (in that moment, anyway) he did make a decision to try a rhythm that didn't work.
Id prefer mistakes you cant hear because ur too busy enjoying the song personally. Live music=best music Great stuff man! makes me appreciate the song more then i did already.
I think it probably was intentional in the way that the bassist thought "let's try something different here". He probably didn't plan it carefully in advance, and didn't think about how it would line up with the horns. So, it was improvisation, and I think it is clear what he was going for (it lands on the "e" and "a" of four), but I don't think it's a genuine mistake in the way that he played it unintentionally. It could be seen as an "arrangement mistake", though - that rhythm would have felt less out of place in some other part of the song. But in this part, the horns are accenting the "and" of four, whereas the bass is leaving that note out, but playing the two 16th notes around it. Just feels weird with the horn part. I do think the bass part sounds cool alone, but it doesn't work that well with the full context. If he had played it over some other part of the song, I think it would have worked better. And since he never repeats it again, maybe it was something that he wanted to try, but when he tried it, he realized that it didn't really work that well, which is why he never repeated it again. Why are people repeating this part in the covers? Probably because they want to stay true to the original, so they play everything note for note. This is very common in UA-cam covers in general. Take any song, and people are most likely trying to play it as close to the original as possible. So, I don't think the people covering it put that much thought into it - they just played what the tab said/what they heard on the record note for note.
Bassist for 38 years and before anybody crucify me: I´m a hughe fan of Verdine, but for me it´s a little mystake, like the others the also appeared on the video. By the way its a fantastic video. And to clarify: 1) The sincopated alternative fits well, so Verdine has chosen to leave that way 2) The cover versions will follow the version, so they will repeat the little mistakes - they are doing accurately 3) The live version of the EWF tribute, will follow just the same pattern and for the same reason 4) The EWF live versions are different, so we couldn't verify the segment as it was recorded, but HERE´s a TRICK: There´s older versions where the song´s segment introduction were NOT DIFFERENT. The 1979 live version segment are available on youtube, follow the same pattern as the original recording, but is not well recorded, so the bass is hidden beyond the noises, and instruments, very difficult to perceive. The 1980 Rio Version is official, recorded and available on cd and on audio streaming - it´s well recorded and we can listen very well the bass. There, the "mystake" is not repeated. It´s is very clear that Verdine repeats all times the same pattern. So for me it´s a little mystake, fitted ok on the original recording, the song is great with those details, with that jelly style, and it´s far superior than plastered version of the Trolls movie.
Bassist of almost 170 years here, my dog died and recently my bass guitar was incinerated. I definitely agree with this statement. My grandfather died of a disease called bassisity in which he forgot what note to play at the exact right time and blew up immediately on the spot. Rest in piece grandpa 👴🏿.
Air guitarist for over 40 years here, this has been the trickiest into for me to master. It’s not a mistake, it’s just funky overload in the bassist fingers nerve endings.
The doctor diagnosed me with funk overload over thirty years ago. Thankfully, I never recovered.
Thank you MASTER... 40 years? Much respect and love sir🙏
As a Bassist, I clearly hear this as something I, and many other bassists would play, and I do think it sounds amazing.
As an engineer, and also 25+year musician, if you told me that was intentional, I'd make you do it again and not fucking flub it. But ok, it's intentional....
@@jtubef8620 End of the day, everyone could have a dick measuring contest of who would do what, but its already happened, and mistake or no mistake, sounds pretty sweet.
Sounds Amazing , if you think not you need to stay away from music
Definitely NOT a mistake, it's not even out of time. As a bass player, it's clear, obvious syncopation. I would even go to far as to say the intro does NOT work half as well without that syncopation. It creates a moment of suspense (placement of rhythmic stresses or accents where they wouldn't normally occur) adding to the buildup right before the song settles into the groove.
That’s just your opinion mate
@@arjanpetersen as is this comment
@@arjanpetersen holy shit man. I didn't even think of that--you're right. My bad
It’s not syncopated, it’s out of time, there’s a difference. I’m pretty amazed this is even disputed, I just always thought it was a mistake. You can clearly hear the delay and when the note hits it’s off time.
i completely agree, as someone who has also played September >500 times
To me it felt like a “Bob Ross mistake“ where it’s more of a happy accident, adding a bit more spice and character to the art, giving it more personality and a less typical feel
exactly
This is also my conclusion.
Bassist of almost 28 years here, and my two cents is; no way that's a mistake. He's playing against the time in a great way for that little part.
Exactly, he took it out of the groove and brought it back in again, all in perfect timing. It's a bit cocky but fun and groovy. You hear this often in older soulful house music productions. Can't wait for this guy to come across a J Dilla production only to implode from the the "drunken drums" patterns.
I always play this little “hiccup” when my band plays this song. It adds to the groove and has so much charm.
16 years here, obviously not a mistake but a cool variation for the intro only xD
Verdine would have admitted it. He’s admitted he messed up on Boogie wonderland and never got to redo it
If the origial bassist doesn't even play the line live himself, then it was obviosly not planned. But that doesn't mean it wasn't intentional in the recording or that it it isn't good.
Whether intentional or not, it certainly IS syncopated and falls in perfectly in the offbeat. If you think of the bass as more of a rhythm instrument, it makes way more sense as to why it wouldn't always line up with the horns. If it sounds good, then it's not a mistake, it's improvisation, or letting the rhythm and the funk take hold of you.
It doesn't always have to line up with the horns, but in that specific part, the horns are playing a clear accent on the and of 4, whereas the bass is playing the two 16th notes around it. It creates this kind of a "rhythmic dissonance" that sounds a bit out of place, or at least very unexpected. Whether the bass should line up with certain horn hits depends on the context. I think in this context it would make more sense if the bass played that one hit together with the horns.
But it may be that the horns were recorded separately, so the band wasn't really thinking about this when they recorded it.
I disagree, it doesn’t fall on any of the 16ths, it’s clearly a mistake
Definitely not a mistake! It acts as a little rhythmical fill to spice things up after 2 bars of the same bassline.
If this is true then the bassist is not a good one - there would have been a million other simple licks you could do.
@@JuiCeBoX19 Yeah, that seems likely that the bassist for Earth, Wind & Fire isn't a good bassist and it was up to the UA-camrs to set the record straight
Exactly, the Verdine way.
Exactly, Again he prob thinks text book when it comes to rhythm so you get responses like this. Also he has fooled alot of people into thinking the bass player did something wrong when he is one of the top bass end players. DEF not a mistake.
It sounds like a mistake to me not that it doesn’t work tho
My two cents as a musician:
Just because something comes out unintentionally does not qualify it to be a mistake. I’ve gone for plenty of licks that I end up flubbing. On occasion, a flub will turn into something cool enough that it doesn’t matter. So I roll with it. We’ve all been there
whats a synonym for flubbing, out of curiosity
@@smashonlamez Cocking up
@@smashonlamez shitting
I studied music performance in college, we had this song for our funk night, I played everything from ear and I played this live and the lecturer shredded me for playing the “iconic bass line wrong” so I played him the track and he’d never noticed it before. This guy had been teaching for nearly as long as the track had been out. Felt so proud of myself😊
If it was thought of as a mistake, they could have easily muted the bass track for that split second during mixdown and no one would have really noticed. Also, that it was not addressed probably means it wasn’t seen as a big deal.
it actually isn’t a mistake, that’s a simple groove decision. and definitely sounds good.
Not a mistake. You can hear Verdine anticipate the "i" by playing a ghost note on the preceeding beat, beat three. It also pretty neatly slots around the horns. Lastly, funk and disco is very tightly orechestrated, especially of this calibre. Al Schmitt who engineered EW&F records remarked how long they would spend cutting vocals alone on those LP's, sometimes months! This was very clearly a deliberate fill/variation that was deemed groovy and left in by the producer and his peers.
There’s a massive difference between syncopated and off time, here he is off
He didn’t play it live and that shows you what the person who played it felt about the syncopation
This reminds me of when I was in a Miles Davis tribute band. I was transcribing stuff straight from the records and I did dots for Autumn Leaves from Cannonball Adderley's album Something Else. It starts with a long bass riff intro before the main melody, with a simple horn line. The trumpet player in the band says to me 'you've really gone for authenticity, you've even transcribed the cracked note (in Miles's line).' Up to that point it hadn't even occurred to me that it was a clam, I was so used to hearing it that it was just part of the music- he heard it differently. To me, the 'mistake' was so baked into the music that it would have sounded weird without it.
THANK GOD! Someone who finally gets it. It’s not the “right” way, but it’s THE way (which is why he ultimately said it doesn’t matter).
Deffinitly not a mistake. This is literally how to play against the rythem. It's fully syncopated. I can't even conceive why you would think its a mistake
Either he doesn't understand groove or he wants more views
literally this. it's the rhythm section, it's not an accent like the horns.
Exactly.
yeah its def syncopated, its coming in exactly on the `and`. Count it 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and, its in. the professional friends who said it isn't are idiots.
100% correct. Sounds natural to me. And every other note is exactly in time, if the third note was a mistake then the forth note would also be off time too because there's no time to recover. No way this is a mistake.
This has been killing me for years. Never heard it isolated before. Isolated, it's fine, in the track, doesn't work. I've been playing bass for over 40 years. Audio engineer for 25. But I worked with Earth Wind and Fire, and I can totally see Maurice saying "it's fine, I like it!"
I agree with this comment. I think the only reason it ‘doesn’t work’ (is off) is because everyone is slightly out of time and it’s a very tight pocket to place that rhythm.
Jazz drummers are never wrong. I don't make the rules
As a former recording engineer, that intro "mistake" sounds to me like a wonky punch-in that they just decided to leave.
I think you are correct. I've produced many recordings and this is the type of time issue you hear often on a take that you don't use. Still, it's kinda cool.
I'm not sure it's a mistake and here's why. A band with such incredible production techniques and polished arrangements as EWF in the late 70s wouldn't let it slip in the mix and re-record that part. They usually added horns after the bass was recorded, so Verdine couldn't really lock in with the horns.
Also, Larry Dunn's 2012 interview for The Atlantic says this:
"We would go into the studio and we would cut what was called the basic track. The basic track would be the rhythm section. It would be either Maurice or Fred White or Ralph Johnson on drums. On bass would be Verdine, Al McKay, and Johnny and me on keyboards. [...] It would take about six hours usually. We had to make sure that groove was undeniable and that everything was tight. [...] We were recording on two-inch tape. Once in a while, take No. 3 from the intro to the bridge was killin' and then from the bridge on out it wasn't as great. But on take No. 6 from the bridge on out would be great. The guy would take the razor blade and cut the tape and then splice it together. And, then we would have our masterpiece: the basic track.
After the basic track, we would start overdubbing. [...] After we got that great groove from beginning to end, then we would start overdubbing additional keyboards, synths, horns, other guitar parts, and background and lead vocals. From that point on, we would mix it by making sure each part was at the right level."
Hope this helps, keep up the good work. Cheers!
It's totally right to me. Not a mistake. This is simply groove, swing...It's not a rule or a law that the bass should be locked in with the horns. I don't get what it's so strange about it...
@@mttlsa686 i agree
I totally agree with Fresh Sly. I'm guitar player and played decades in party bands and this sounds as a pretty solid variation. Just a bass player having some fun, with this variation he's flashing a 16th groove. It's definitely not a mistake, as a skilled bass player you don't want to leave a mistake on a record.
7:51 but he didn’t fix any of these mistakes.
@@RiffMusic1970 You're right, But i'm talking about the 1st "mistake"
That fact that the tempo doesn't line up with the grid is exactly why IT'S PERFECT! What is Soul Music without the freedom to express your Soul? *De-Quantize your brain and be free!*
Dude it lines up perfect and feels awesome! When you ‘fixed’ it, it sounded way worse. It’s not a mistake he’s just messing around with the rhythm. He’s still perfectly in time, just fucking around with the rhythm. It’s completely deliberate. Imo. Verdine would not have just let such an obvious ‘mistake’ slide if he didn’t want it in there.
Did you miss the end of the video with all the other obvious mistakes?
@@somethingbl damn, I was just about to type that.
The end of the vid?
@@somethingbl Idk honestly those obvious mistakes that they kept are just normal, and it would be almost impossible to have a one take track with none of those, they don’t prove that the one in the intro is a mistakes, to me it sound just like a rythmic variation, if you listen to the live versions of their songs they always have in a measure the hits that they gotta do in sync and the parts where they just play around
Hey bro some people do not understand what “feeling the music” means. It’s the difference between greatness and perfection.
Most great musicians are imperfect, most perfect musicians are not great!
AKA… feel the Groove.
I don’t hear mistakes, I hear groove.
It's like your heart skipping a beat having the base line do that. It's an awesome touch and definitely NOT A MISTAKE!
I love the way you put that
I don't hear it as a mistake at all. To me it grooves hard af!
Just write "as fuck"....
@@jcout25 y?
@@jcout25 But does fuck groove?
@@jcout25 y?
@@jcout25 y?
If that is a mistake that is one fucking awesome mistake.
Also listening these two version at the same time is the perfect way to hear what was best in before and what's horrible now.
Nice analysis, but I have an idea.
Maybe when they sat down & recorded the backing track, the score for the brass & strings hadn't been written yet, so the bass fill seemed right at the time, but when they added the orchestra, no one noticed it didn't fit in the groove anymore.
I was thinking that because listening to the original stems, you can't hear the brass "bleed-through" on the bass, guitar, piano tracks, or even the drum track (where bleed can't be missed), so those parts are at least overdubbed, if not written later.
And, if you take the brass & strings & such out, the bass fill lines up. Very nicely, actually.
So that's what I think happened, not a mistake, just a weird quirk of writing the song.
Somebody posted this interview excerpt with Dunn in The Atlantic and I thought you'd enjoy it
"Sometimes I would bring a tune in and the music would already be there. So-we would go into the studio and we would cut what was called the basic track. The basic track would be the rhythm section. It would be either Maurice or Fred White or Ralph Johnson on drums. On bass would be Verdine, Al McKay, and Johnny and me on keyboards. And we would cut the basic track. It would take about six hours usually. We had to make sure that groove was undeniable and that everything was tight. Back then, they didn't have hard disc recording. We were recording on two-inch tape. Once in a while, take No. 3 from the intro to the bridge was killin' and then from the bridge on out it wasn't as great. But on take No. 6 from the bridge on out would be great. The guy would take the razor blade and cut the tape and then splice it together. And, then we would have our masterpiece: the basic track.
After the basic track, we would start overdubbing. The basic track is like a cake and the overdubbing would be icing and sprinkles on the top. After we got that great groove from beginning to end, then we would start overdubbing additional keyboards, synths, horns, other guitar parts, and background and lead vocals. From that point on, we would mix it by making sure each part was at the right level and at the right panning in the speakers and the right compression. It was definitely a science."
This is obviously the correct answer, but given the Funk of that era no one would’ve heard it as a mistake after the arrangement was filled out. It’s just a spicy syncopation and was a very common thing in Funk back then.
This sounds spot on to me.
Hearing this for the first time(not the song, just the baseline)isolated and not isolated, it does not sound anything like a mistake and is good syncopation to my ears. But I love how you presented it, such a fun video and great discussion! Surprised how polarizing this really is
You said it's dancing around the beat - you're exactly right, it is dancing around it; the horn hit is on the And of the beat, and the bassline dances around it, hitting the E & A of the beat. It brings out the horn hit even more honestly. I'm more than sure they all had a discussion about the part; as a bass player, I know I would bring attention to it and explain why it works (and force the band to be okay with it if they didn't dig it.)
At 6:16 he doesn't play the 'mistake' but rather the whole band hits that syncopated rhythm together. Clearly they liked his offbeat part so much they got the whole band to join in.
That's my definition of a genuine musician - someone whose wrong notes sound better than my right notes. This qualifies.
That's what I love about having multitracks and stems of older classics. You can dive deeper into what was going on back then. Great post.
It's very encouraging for my own playing! Perfection isn't the goal: good feel is!
@@diggingthegreats Absolutely. I listen to a lot of Michael multitracks and I notice he was flat a few times. Thing is his harmonies are so smooth that they cover up those small mistakes.
Man, this is a hard one for me. The fact that he only does it once lends _some_ credibility to idea that it's a mistake, but nothing about it feels like a mistake.
As a bass player of 20 years, that part hits right. It's the exact sort of rhythm-play I do all the time when I write parts. So much so, that it feels completely natural, like it's exactly what I'd do (and no, I didn't grow up listening to this song). After 3 bars of the same line, us bass players have an incessant need to add a bit of variety. Nothing about it feels "off". Syncopated, yes. But while it's not absolutely grid-perfect, it's not sloppy either.
One big reason it doesn't feel like a mistake is the number of notes he plays. If it were a mistake, that extra attack wouldn't be there. It's not like he accidentally used two fingers, and then also accidentally did a super slow flam with them. It's just too modified for it to be unintentional. It would be an absolutely bizarre mistake.
It's a pickup on the rhythm- it prepares you for when the drum fill hits to go into the first verse, and its genius
Definetly not a mistake, and grooves really well too. I'd say 7:58 is not a mistake either and he even repeats the same line at 8:10, the small lick is again played in time and in key, and fits in really well.
In 2020 I was hired by the label (Sony) and the band to remix September. I did put things on a grid via the elastic audio function in Pro Tools, as I was changing the drums, but kept pretty much everything else intact, and tried to leave some natural swing to the tracks. That being said…I did “fix” the notes in question, and was on the fence about it, but ultimately decided that with my more regimented groove it didn’t sound right to me. Listening to and editing the bass and all other parts, we need to realize that these type of players were not going for Steely Dan like perfection, or what we know now with DAW editing. They were 100% groove. I've been fortunate to remix tracks for Motown artists and Philidelphia International records, and there are indeed some clams on the recording, but you don't really hear them unless you solo the track. Anyway, the band loved the remix, and I spoke with Verdine after it was released. I didn’t mention the (possible) mistake, nor did he. I now wonder if he was relieved that is was corrected? You can find the remix here on UA-cam (VEVO).
Actually, Verdine is on record stating that they often left mistakes in during clean-up.
Everything the Beatles ever did has a wikipedia page. Always bugged me that music by a lot of these incredible soul, funk, rnb,hip hop musicians, was not as well documented. I think your channel goes a long way in filling in that void and that's why I believe it's going to be huge. Keep preaching the gospel.
Thank you 🙏 Trying to pay respect and shine a light on some of the best music ever recorded!
@RealSweetKid Would if I could. Music journalism or journalism of any kind is not really my strong point. That's why I appreciate this channel for what it's doing.
So write a wiki page if you feel so strongly about it. You do know that anybody can add or edit...right? solution based thinking.
I really don't think it's a mistake, I think it was just a fun little syncopated thing the bass player decided to do, and maybe even improvved it in the moment. You mentioned the way it dances around the horn hit and honestly I think that's super cool, not evidence of a mistake to me at all. It's also possible that he didn't mean to play it in the take (i.e. a mistake) but when they heard it back they really liked the way it sounded so intentionally kept it that way. I guess it's hard to know for sure but as you said, if it sounds good it is good, and I think that little bit sounds great (as does the rest of. the song of course).
My favorite channel since Nerdwriter. Feels like i’m learning from an insanely fun professor who is oozing knowledge. Absolutely amazing stuff.
Thank you 🙏 I’m having a lot of fun with it 😂
@@diggingthegreats That’s the best part then man!! As long you’re having fun, keep doin what you’re doing, cause a lot of people (including me) are having a lot of fun with it too!!
nerdwriter cringiest man on youtube
i think people are forgetting another possible idea which is that it was a mistake they kept because they liked it.
It definitely isn't a mistake, IMO.
Stuff like this happens frequently on old funk tracks. It is a way of keeping interest in the groove by adding little variations here and there, either by altering the rhythm, the notes, or both.
This song is absolute perfection! It's the epitome of Funk! My favorite song in the whole wide world! I see no mistake here. It's a beautiful syncopated transition. Who says everything has to line up perfectly? The world would be a boring place if it did.
My man!
If any percussion instrument (including the hi-hat) hits any subdivision of the meter then it is available for the bassman to play off of and accent when bringing the funk! Lord have mercy!!!!!!
I'm a bass player and have often squeezed notes closely around drum beats, making the drum beats sound like ghost notes that I'm playing, even though I'm not. You can make a two-note BOMP BOOMP sound like piki-BOMP-p-BOOMP. It sounds like I'm playing a much cooler lick that I'm actually playing.
The fact that it's Verdin White doesn't make it any easier to decide if it was a mistake or not. He's so good, I understand the argument that everything is intentional. But, he's also so good that he can leave something unintentional in if it works.
Bro you have the greatest videos on music hands down I really appreciate you diving deep into songs 🤝🏼
What a well constructed argument that states if it was a mistake it, it still sounds good. Surely the youtube community will point that out.
*looks at comments (bassist experts coming out the woodwork as if someone spit on their mother's face)
"tHiS iS nOT a MiSTakE!"
😂
I was at the peak of my musical career as a bass player at that time -- Funk R&B, Fusion, like that. First up in the morning was Franz on 40 bpm, make the click disappear by clapping so in time that the clap covers the click perfectly, you don't hear the click -- 20 minutes of it, 7 days a week. When I heard this back then it sounded perfectly natural to me, a syncopation put there to set up the downbeat that follows. As a matter of fact, if you listen to a lot of EWF, you'll hear this type of rhythmic figure used frequently, it adds interest. As far as wandering around, EWF did wander a lot more than most bands of the time -- race to the chorus -- drag back into the verse. I laid a lot of tracks on 2" tape in those days, and ya' I get the "leave it in there" aspect. However, not for me to say whether that figure was or wasn't intentional, just sayin' there was a lot of counter syncopation rhythm going on in that era. Check out Chuck Rainey on the Dan stuff, he very often doesn't hit with the kick, or Rocco and Garibaldi in Tower, things were a lot more interesting back then, maybe some of it WAS mistakes, but there was a lot of beauty there too, as you say :)
It does line up with the band. its a syncopated variation of his bassline. It's obviously not a mistake to anyone who understands rhythm, phrasing, and theme & variation.
It’s crazy how fast this channel is growing, much deserved!
I think you nailed it- not a “mistake” per se that needs a retake, but it sounds like he was going for a lick with the horns anticipation and didn’t quite nail it. since it doesn’t really go out of time or disrupt anything it was left in, but since it was played differently live I think that makes a great case for this analysis.
Clarification since some people think I’ve lost my mind:
Verdine is amazing.
If it feels good, it IS good. (Jello vs Cement) - The Original is the best version, obviously.
I understand the rhythm is in time, it just doesn’t line up with the horns. But none of this ultimately matters because September is amazing.
Also, you should really watch the rest of the video 😉
I liked the video, and especially hearing some other isolated segments of the bass line in that same recording, that showed other rhythmical variations to the basic line. Because that is exactly what makes music played by great musicians so interesting: even if the song is very repetitive by composition, it keeps sounding fresh, never boring. And that is not just human feel, but indeed deliberate variations that create that. I would be curious to find out for example if all drum fills in this song are played exactly the same, and if they weren't, whether that was by mistake, according you ;-) Thanks!
please make a complete video on De La Soul. They're such an amazing band in the art of mixing samples. De La Soul is funny, intelligent, artistic, authentic and refreshing
By definition it isn't a mistake, or they would not have kept it in the official release.
Intention isn't the issue, either. All Happy Accidents are essentially sub-optimal - as in, definitely not what was being aimed for - yet most of the greatest inventions involve an accident or two. _Followed by refinement._
This bass anomaly wasn't refined, and so it seems sub-optimal to you and me.
But _was_ it sub-optimal?
You and me can say yes, but whatever outside musicians think about it's execution being an error (or not) isn't ultimately relevant.
_That we're still listening to it 40+ years later is what's relevant!_
It’s the grooviest part of the song imo
Paraphrasing Duke Ellington there ("If it sounds good, it IS good")...one of my favorite quotes.
If you think the grid is everything, sure, it may sound like a mistake, but if it doesn't screw up the rest of the song, it doesn't really matter. Give me feel over quantization every time, especially in funk, R&B or any kind of grooving music.
Whatever the intention was, once they left it in it's no mistake. Such a hugely important band. Even bands like Banda Black Rio from Brazil show their influence.
I think it's a "mistake" but is indeed syncopated. If Verdine played the line perfectly, I personally think the intro would not be as great as it is. I believe someone heard that "hiccup", knew it was a mistake but it sounds good, adding this extra layer into the suspension of the 5, that they kept it and now it's forever attached to the song. Seeing them live, and watching so many EWF vides (they're my fav band of all time) knowing Verdine doesnt play that part tells me it was an accident. I love the "error" b/c it's an example of a sign of the times and is a testament to how marvelous EWF is! RIP Maurice White.
Don't think its a mistake, the bass is just hanging on steadfastly to that line in spite of what the horns are doing. Still works overall. Amazing to hear how great this whole song sounds even today.
Not fixed solely: 0:51
Not fixed with band: 1:23
Fixed: 5:00
I think it's genuinely the case of a happy accident.
It is a mistake by modern standards but they probably had multiple takes and just took the one that sounded best.
So in conclusion that probably wasn't exactly the plan and can be seen as a mistake because of it, but it just genuinely like you said doesn't matter because the entire band doesn't play to a rigid pattern instead a more soft swing making slightly offset notes not only less important on an individual member level but also highlighting an essential aspect of freedom in the sound of the song that in turn is reflected in the lyrics. This aspect of freedom is in turn lost in the Trolls version of the song making it overall more static and less complete.
I’ve been playing bass, drums and guitar professionally for over 30 years, and I think your take on it is probably right…. It was a spur of the moment mistake that didn’t disturb the groove and has now become canon for bassists - so it’s sacrilegious for them to breathe the word “mistake”.
How about calling Verdine White and asking him
I'm a bass player too and in my opinion it's hard to think at a that time there was a room for a such mistake because of the expensive cost of studio time and those old bands used to rehearsal for several months in order to mount the songs and get them fine, so probably was an inaccurate syncopation, otherwise Maurice White wouldn't never approved that result. Additional Verdine White plays the basslines live a little bit different because all EWF's songs have their own live arrangement so they're not as exact as the original records.
You are so good dude... Keep on documenting the beautiful quirks you find in the artistry of great musicians!
Thank you! 🙏 Verdine is the man, and is one of the reasons I've played this song a thousand times haha
Love this! Love Verdine!
It's those kind of "mistakes" that I love about the music from this era, especially compared to almost all modern songs that are so sterile / clean and have no soul..
It's the authenticity of handmade music that I appreciate. You will rarely find that in modern recordings nowadays. I find that kind of perfectionism very boring and sad tbh.
Holy shit dude, you're an YT beast! Prepare, because this video's gonna be your breakthrough.
(It's a mistake)
its syncopated... the horns are on the (+) of 4, the bass hits are on the (e) and (a) of 4... perfectly locked in [ (e)=2nd 16th note, (+)=3rd 16th note, (a=)4th 16th note ] Source: Berklee bachelors degree and 22 years of playing experience
Earth Wind and Fire did a Christmas album in 2014 and did a new version of this song called 'December'. I don't know whether they re recorded every part or just the vocals but either way that bass bit is still in there. If it was a mistake to begin with surely they would have corrected it for this new version. Leads me to believe it was intentional.
of course it was, it sounds good
This is an interesting exploration, regardless of all the weirdos in the comments like “it’s definitely totally intentional and sounds amazing and you don’t know anything about music if you say otherwise”
The interesting part about 'September' is the song starts at about 118bbm, you get to the 1st verse it's 122bbm, then the chorus at 126bbm and by the end of the recording when horns are going off it's 128bbm. Talk about playing by feel. Still one my all time favorites with V's bass lines. Love your show dude. You have a new subscriber..."Good stuff' as Johnny Carson used to say.
*BPM, as in beats per minute. But that's interesting, didn't realize there was such a big difference in tempo within the song.
Carson said 'Goods tough', definitely a mistake.
I could clearly feel the tempo changes, much like the song Can't Let Go by EWF, the tempo really accelerates near the end.
It's either a mistake (what I've always thought) or if it is intentional it's a choice that doesn't sound or feel great.
Imagine this from the original bassist perspective! They added a fun lil bit to the bass line to funk it up, that fits perfectly and sounds great. Then some UA-camr hears it and tells everyone it’s a mistake, because… hubris?
Great video! …drummer here, I don’t think it’s a mistake because it fits perfectly between the 8th notes. Glad you are listening so closely. I don’t think most people notice stuff like that. Even if it was a mistake it works well like you said.
I have listened to this song tons of times, and the bass part never once registered to me as a mistake until I saw this video while scrolling on YT. Crazy.
the thing i like about "mistakes" in music is that it really shows the humanity behind it. i hate when an song is too clean sometimes. i need to hear a chain rubbing against the mic, and on sample chop, some vinyl cracking yaknow
its no mistake. it was intentional and adds to the song.
Legit found you yesterday and Ive already watched all of your videos. Your love for music, history, and everything in between is infectious. Thanks for doing what you do man.
Thank you so much!
It does work, isn't even off, and is the thing that gives the part it's vibe. It's loose like the rest of the song.
This absolutely is a thing myself or a lot of bassists I know would choose to do once or twice throughout a song
I LOVE this channel. I went down a huge allee Willis rabbit hole bc of another video and I’m so grateful
Doing your own digging! Yes!
This channel is fantastic! Wish I had another 30 videos to binge lol
I first discovered your videos a few days ago in that time you have grown a few thousand subscribers or nearly 20%.
I hope that this is just the beginning of your much deserved growth for bringing attention and detail to the masters of their craft.
As a musician I really appreciate the production quality and accessibility to non musicians of these great concepts.
Always wondered about that "mistake/non-mistake"...glad I found this video.
love your channel. You mentioned De La Soul on a few occasions. Could you make a complete video on De La Soul because this group is so important in terms of humor, intelligence, art, positivism and incredible research of samples
the number of samples used is incredible. For a single De La Soul song, there are like 4 samples.
i'm a bass player, and when you listen to it in context it works
I see it like this: in this era of computerised grid music, we almost forgot that playing music in a band is like having a conversation within a group of people (after all, musicians in a band are musically communicating with each other). In such a conversation, people sometimes make mistakes in a word, or use alternatives while expressing themselves. When the conversation ends, nobody will be bothered by those misspoken words anymore. If the overall feel and energy of the conversation was good, everybody goes home a little bit wiser. So, as you mentioned before, it’s all about the human feel. The musicians role in a band is (also), with their own playing, to make the other musicians sound better within the whole song, as part of the whole 'feel'. A little variation in one’s individual part won’t crush that fundament in general.
💯💯💯
It's great you made a nice debate and conversation with lots of people about this little bit of bass playing. But, if you really want to put the nail in the coffin, at least for yourself, why not see if you can reach out to Verdine and ask him directly, "if he remembers..." :)
Thats not a mistake its off on purpose... Actually perfect 16 triplets and his GROOVE ... Thats why the other musicians wrote the mistake down on sheet music because its not a mistake at all its off intentionally ....VERDINE WHITE his whole style is loose and intentionally off ..... no mistakes. Dope content keep it going
White guy tries to explain and sound like an expert and this dude has his ass so far up his head .. September is perfect a classic no mistakes
White folks have no soul or feel so he doesn’t even understand what he’s talking about
Definitely love your page though but yeah this is soul music…
You pulling out all the “mistakes”
In one of the dopest records of all time
Lol at the comments, trying to defend the bassline by saying it's perfectly in time, when they can't even properly count it themselves... Those are NOT triplets
For obvious reasons, I am extremely interested in this discussion, although I am fairly certain I won't be able to understand it due to fact I am not a musician.
However, I have detected an indisputable timing error in one of EW&F's songs, one with which many of you will not be familiar¹.
I will post the result here if anyone is interested
1. I mean to say that you won't be familiar with the song, not the type of error
I was right
This is way over my head
I’ve been listening to this song since it came out and I always noticed this and it bothered me. Decades later when I learned about editing 2” tape, I assumed it was a bad edit that worked so they kept it.
Some of the most innovative grooves come from "mistakes." And even if it is truly a mistake, he's a human making human music. Make electronic music if you want everything mathematically synced.
Ps. Nothing against electronic, I'm a big fan of the genre. I'd argue that perfect quantization is a subjective stylistic choice as long as you're not just using it as a crutch to avoid growing your skills
Edit: typo
Mistake and accidents are two different things that sometimes happen at the same time
You know, if you frame this in its _present_ historicity, it's a precursor to the style of funk sampling that caught on in the midwest's hiphop scene. I mean, that sort of hesitation is the kind of finite detail that set off J Dilla to embrace the capacity of funk syncopation with his MPC. So I'm going to say that, through the dialectical process of time, it's one of the critical syncopations in funk bass history.
as a B-list session guy, it does sound like a finger slip, but half of the sessions I worked on, a lot mistakes stay in, as they fit. but at the same time, we also get told to walk around a bit, to break up the monotony of the bassline and forget to re-create half of that on live performances
hell, over half the tracks ive done i don't even remember how to re-create as a 1 to 1
Right now I'm imagining the scene of you creating your bundt cake assets in photoshop
It was either that or literally fill a bundt cake pan with cement
QUESTION: What are your thoughts of Michael Jackson’s “Baby Be Mine” at about the 3:30 minute mark? It seems like a tempo change, something happened.
Yo! Keep this stuff up! Can you do a video on genres, specifically what makes American genres so unique. Like house, funk, jazz, hip-hop.
It's not a mistake
It's a hint to signify the end of the 4 bar section or the end of the hook.
Just something extra to create that emphasis between the verse and the hook.
you are one of the greatest youtube channels dedicated to music, me and i’m sure everyone else who watches these sees how much you love what you do. keep it up man!
Thank you so much! Doing my best to celebrate some of the best music ever made!
I taught a class at a community College and always showed it as one of two mistakes to teach critical listening. The second mistake is one of the trumpets squeaks a little during the outro. But loved seeing this video, reminds me of a good time in my life! Thanks for this!
yo if you keep posting stuff like this you’ll eventually get 100K + subs im sure
There are at least two kinds of mistakes in music: failures of technique, and failures of judgment. While Verdine absolutely did not flub (in that moment, anyway) he did make a decision to try a rhythm that didn't work.
Id prefer mistakes you cant hear because ur too busy enjoying the song personally. Live music=best music
Great stuff man! makes me appreciate the song more then i did already.
Agreed! It feels so good!
I think it probably was intentional in the way that the bassist thought "let's try something different here". He probably didn't plan it carefully in advance, and didn't think about how it would line up with the horns. So, it was improvisation, and I think it is clear what he was going for (it lands on the "e" and "a" of four), but I don't think it's a genuine mistake in the way that he played it unintentionally. It could be seen as an "arrangement mistake", though - that rhythm would have felt less out of place in some other part of the song. But in this part, the horns are accenting the "and" of four, whereas the bass is leaving that note out, but playing the two 16th notes around it. Just feels weird with the horn part.
I do think the bass part sounds cool alone, but it doesn't work that well with the full context. If he had played it over some other part of the song, I think it would have worked better. And since he never repeats it again, maybe it was something that he wanted to try, but when he tried it, he realized that it didn't really work that well, which is why he never repeated it again.
Why are people repeating this part in the covers? Probably because they want to stay true to the original, so they play everything note for note. This is very common in UA-cam covers in general. Take any song, and people are most likely trying to play it as close to the original as possible. So, I don't think the people covering it put that much thought into it - they just played what the tab said/what they heard on the record note for note.
It’s called “feel” .. as a bassist sometimes you have to make your presence known without doing too much out of the pocket . God Bless bro
Bassist for 38 years and before anybody crucify me: I´m a hughe fan of Verdine, but for me it´s a little mystake, like the others the also appeared on the video. By the way its a fantastic video. And to clarify: 1) The sincopated alternative fits well, so Verdine has chosen to leave that way 2) The cover versions will follow the version, so they will repeat the little mistakes - they are doing accurately 3) The live version of the EWF tribute, will follow just the same pattern and for the same reason 4) The EWF live versions are different, so we couldn't verify the segment as it was recorded, but HERE´s a TRICK: There´s older versions where the song´s segment introduction were NOT DIFFERENT. The 1979 live version segment are available on youtube, follow the same pattern as the original recording, but is not well recorded, so the bass is hidden beyond the noises, and instruments, very difficult to perceive. The 1980 Rio Version is official, recorded and available on cd and on audio streaming - it´s well recorded and we can listen very well the bass. There, the "mystake" is not repeated. It´s is very clear that Verdine repeats all times the same pattern. So for me it´s a little mystake, fitted ok on the original recording, the song is great with those details, with that jelly style, and it´s far superior than plastered version of the Trolls movie.
Bassist of almost 170 years here, my dog died and recently my bass guitar was incinerated. I definitely agree with this statement. My grandfather died of a disease called bassisity in which he forgot what note to play at the exact right time and blew up immediately on the spot. Rest in piece grandpa 👴🏿.
It's for sure syncopated. And it fits super nicely. Not sure there can be "mistakes" in the style. Doesn't have to "fit" to be right.