It would be interesting for someone to play you say 5 recordings of jazz pianists playing the same song, blind to who each one is. Somebody would pick these out and only one would be famous. Then rank them. Bring out the "one hit wonders" of jazz. Sometimes players have very short recording careers and some song they did is just a good as the established known name players,. It's the same thing in fine art painting, we are heavily biased by esteemed names we already know and even with the greats some of their pieces are not great. Likewise some obscure player might have done only one thing that was exceptional that was captured on a recording. Another bias we have is for an innovator. Then someone comes along and imitates their style to an extent. That person might actually have made a better piece of art if you heard it blindly. But we are biased in not seeing it as highly because they weren't the inventor of the style. They weren't the genius who did it first.
@@sat1241 All that lionizing not only hurts the jazz community, it also hurt the academic music ("classical") community. All the time you hear the same 3 big names (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) and other amazing composers are left out of the convo and some, like Schönberg, are even demonized.
The problem with the community very much has to do with elitism. Alienating not only non jazz fans, as well as aspiring jazz musicians of all ages, elitism is an extremely toxic and corrosive attitude. It is so present in our community that it pushes people away that would otherwise be a valuable asset to us all.
@@XU23 No, it's completely false. What is "non-elitist" in our USA? The answer is: US mass media TV (movies, pop music, comics). Jazz music is an intergenerational global conservatory composition and performing art form. Anyone who "doesn't like" that can watch TV instead. Their "likes" simply don't matter. Mass media entertainment is "popular" but then rapidly forgotten. The business model for mass media entertainment is streams of rapidly forgotten novelties. Jazz and classical music are not part of that business model. Jazz and classical music are for remembering over many generations. This is how things are. Nothing will change that. In any case, "jazz" is not up to Americans anymore.
@@scottmcloughlin4371 I see what you are saying, but you are really over-complicating this issue. It's as simple as "don't give a kid the silent treatment because he out-soloed you at a jam." You'd be surprised how many jazz musicians act this way.
During the last 30 years, jazz has become monopolized by the higher institutions of music education. Jazz is the music language you study most, when not studying strict classical music. As such, it has become a "treehouse club" where only people with the right connections from school and the papers to prove it, is allowed in on the jam. They also learn from the same "sources" and come out, with a pretty fixed and uniform idea of what jazz is and how it should sound.
This. And while some of these educations and institutions put out some creative and exiting musicians, some places it just seems completely dogmatized. Especially in the US. It seems like the exact iconizing and storytelling, a certain snapshot of an idea of music history has been been blown up to a completely unattainable and god like status. I don’t think this is elitism. Because these gatekeepers are becoming more and more marginalized. But they seem to be taking an entire culture down the drain with them.
"During the last 30 years, jazz has become monopolized by the higher institutions of music education." 100% - the "academization" of jazz has really hurt it. It was best when musicians were trying to express themselves while also entertaining an audience - music that amazed you but also made you tap your feet. Then the academics took over and it became "whatever fancy concept you can come up with to win a grant," so the audience didn't matter any more, it got more conceptual, and the music suffered
The problem with the crossover formula is that, while guys like Herbie or Stanley Jordan do it from an artistic and honest basis, there are also those formulaic 'Bossa Nova versions of mainstream hits', 'Swing/Big Band versions of mainstream hits', etc that only cross over to find an audience disregarding the jazz comunity for not being "profitable enough". I actually like guys like Amy Winehouse or Michael Bublé, and I sincerely think George Benson is one of the greatest artists of all time irrespective of the genres he is playing, but there are also those many hacks you can hear at Starbucks, for instance.
@alienígena There's a difference between honestly experimenting with music and elements one has genuine interest in and just doing a by-the-formula cash-in project like the Bossa'n Stones or Bossa'n Roses crap.
Sure but watch the video of Herbie performing Bob Marley's 'One Love' with Sheryl Crow and Will i am at Obama's inaugural concert. What is he doing? But I guess we're not allowed to say to one of the living legends of jazz 'mate, perhaps those outside pentatonic extemporizations are not what's required seeing as it's a three chord reggae tune'.
I love this commentary. I was a rapper from my teenage years until age 26 when I decided I wanted to learn jazz piano. Long story, but I pretty much started from square one. I spent time taking lessons, practicing, and listening to insane hours worth of jazz. Before I ever really got into actually breaking into the jazz world I got hired for a neo-soul singer about 3 years into my learning. Once I started to attempt, the amount of discouragement and gatekeeping really threw me off and I had a moment when I almost gave up on jazz. With all of that, this is so refreshing to hear and luckily I met some people who had this same sentiment in the scene and have since helped me gain the insight and experience without constantly knocking me down. I think another great point is you don't have to wait for permission to write and release music. I found myself having inner dialogue asking, "when am I good enough to write a record?" even though I'm lucky enough to play with some of the most sought after rhythm sections and horn players in the city. The time is whenever the artist feels the sincere creative urge. Again, I really appreciate this commentary. Thanks, Peter.
@@amotinyabongo5659 It's cool to know there are others who can relate. It seems like in the jazz world the vast majority of people who succeed started when they were like 2 months old haha. Keep at it fam!
I agree with you Remy, when I realised I would wait years and years to get in touch with any jazz guru or who ever may come to ask me to join, I took the step to publishing first my music on UA-cam, then in Spotify and who knows what is expecting me next. My urge to express myself in music was too strong!! Thank you for sharing your experience
What are good examples of jazz artists of now? I can try: Kamai Washington, Emma Thackray, Angela Bat Dawid, Makaya McCraven, can someone continue naming great artsist of now?
I think you're right. As much as I was happy that there was a movie about jazz, I thought "Whiplash" fed into just what's wrong with jazz: the idea that it's serious business, not fun. When jazz was popular music, it was fun (or at least entertainment)! Yes, Christian McBride does a lot to bring back the fun spirit of the music - his concerts are really enjoyable, and people that aren't jazzophiles (?) love him.
Completely agree about Whiplash, also it highlighted a lot of other things wrong with jazz, the competitive nature and also sexism involved in the educational and professional music world. It touched a nerve with me, certainly. But luckily all the musicians I work with don't operate like that.
@@wendykirkland Yes, competitive as opposed to cooperative... not a great way to make music. And sexism in jazz remains much more than in other music genres.
@@armanddiaz4075 I do agree sexism is a big stigma of jazz, but the only genre that is more open than jazz is academic music ('classical'). Rock is open to women but it follows their own formulas, same as pop, R&B and hip-hop. At least jazz doesn't dictate what a female artist must look like or act like as much as those other genres.
@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 That's a really good point. I was thinking about all the women who are pop and rock stars, but yes, there's a formula.
Bird and others never forgave Dizzy for singing and dancing in front of his band - they thought he was clowning. Which, being artists, they were too good to do. Duke never thought of himself as an 'artist' until on tour in Britain, some writer called him one. At the Cotton Club, he was an entertainer, pure and simple. It was really the Bop scene that made guys think they were too good for their audience, and that shaped jazz for decades to come.
Duke and his band were special because their work could appeal to anybody. There was that versatility, where you could entertain and also offer material that could make people think and feel, if they were so inclined. I think their work is very open-minded and beautiful. The same is true of Count Basie and Erroll Garner and a few others from that era who weren't afraid of being too well-liked, which is an odd phobia to have, anyway.
This is an absolutely great point. Lionel Hampton took a lot of flack because wait for it.. he encouraged the audience to sing and clap along. Louie warned jazz musicians back in the day about their attitude. They looked down on him for playing pop tunes. A friend of mine was a great musician but his and other jazz musicians contempt for their audiences sometimes was startling. Eight people in a club on a Tuesday night and the musicians acted like they were doing them a favor. Got to lose the attitude. That's why when you mention someone like Louis Armstrong people still get big happy smiles on their faces. The other Giants of modern jazz? Not so much
@@IzunaSlap Famously, Miles wouldn't even look at the audience, and would turn his back to them. And then had the nerve to wonder why Jimi Hendrix could attract an audience of 10k while he could count his own live audiences.
Oh Peter, thank you so much, you've expressed so eloquently what Ive felt for so long, hearing this from a jazz musician of your calibre has made me feel liberated! This exclusionary attitude is very prevalent in jazz but also found in other genres. When was about 15 I remember talking to some older friends about the Bob Dylan song Blowin in the Wind, I said that I actually preferred Stevie Wonders recording, I was shot down in flames and made to feel immature and stupid. Later on I read that Bob Dylan said that "If anyone deserves to be called a genius, its Stevie Wonder". Later on I was lucky to be a student on the first advanced Jazz course in Europe at the Leeds College of Music in the UK. I learned so much there but I did feel intimidated by other students about who I was allowed to like and not like (Pop, rock even classical definitely a no no). Sadly I found myself repeating their opinions to my students when I started teaching, later on I realised what I was doing and started saying what I really thought instead, now I feel vindicated! I subscribe to Open Studio, I love your lessons, so much to learn! Thank you!
This is a huge problem in Universities. Having first hand experience I have seen many young/ passionate individuals throw away everything they once loved about music in order gain their professors approval or to just pass the class. When a student doesn’t even know right from wrong, a professor can abuse his power to unbelievable extents from manipulating, to straight up mentally abusing students in their face. I left college because of this exact situation I had been put into with no one besides close friends to explain my issue to. It got so bad to the point where I dropped out mid semester, ultimately causing the university to not believe my story at all. At this moment in time I’m thousands of dollars in debt to a school and the man who mentally abused me behind closed doors. It’s appalling to see other students who may not understand their situation or feel as if they have nowhere else to go, suffer through something like that.
Same happened to me and all my friends back in 1981 at a University in Arizona. We all dropped out of "Intro to Jazz Improvisation" Mid-Semester. I switched majors, and when that ultimately failed, joined the Navy. Watching "Whiplash" was like reliving a nightmare. Jazz right now would do good to take a page from what's happening with Bluegrass. Little Festivals with contests popping up all over the place. Plenty of ways to Jam informally, meet and even jam with the Stars. The Boot Camps teach young musicians what is really played, not just a bunch of Scales and Chords, and they do this with very little Theory. I attended a Jazz Camp at Manhattan School of Music right out of the Navy back in 1992. Absolutely little or no jamming with the professors. Most of the students left at night to go to a Club, so there was hardly any Jamm Sessions at all, even between students in the Three Weeks I was there. Nothing was ever organized by the School, and we were so split up by room assignments we never found each other to organize our own.
I’m so glad that someone with some credibility finally said what so many fans and musicians have been wanting to say… I’m a fan and a musician. I used to love to go to jazz shows but it stopped being fun and the joy disappeared. Sometimes I wish that jazz musicians would remember that this music came from humble beginnings and was made for dancers… it was music for the people… it was fun joyful expression with a beat you could dance to… Also, jazz education is backwards…. Teachers tell students that they must master music before they can jam with the pros…. But in reality, improvisation IS the path to music mastery… like learning to speak… we didn’t master grammar and spelling before we started “jamming” in English with the pros (our parents). Jamming with our parents and siblings was how we learned to speak … BEFORE learning to read and write… Students of every other art form begin to create on their first day…. But jazz students are told they can’t improvise and jam with the pros until much later Also, sick of the politically correct race hustling. Ever notice the Mexican cooks making amazing Chinese food in restaurants? Who cares if he’s Mexican as long as the food is good!
Here's a thought (that generally goes over like a lead balloon when I express it) that might be related to the topic at hand: at this point in the history of jazz, forced applause after solos is a negative aspect of the jazz culture. In classical music, the culture prohibits applauding after a single movement in a multi-movement piece. The idea being that the piece of music shouldn't be interrupted until the end. The narrative arc intended by composer is broken. In jazz, on the other hand, one MUST clap after every time someone blows over a certain number of choruses. I hate it for a couple reasons: 1) it celebrates the individual performer over Music, and introduces a subtle, competitive "cutting session" aspect into what should be a deeper artistic expression 2) It severely constricts the narrative arc of the music -- we have to have a climatic build/release/applause sequence in every fucking tune in a set. The insertion of applause becomes a compositional element in itself. A required, non-musical, compositional element. It's a serious limiting factor to the impact of jazz, and it promotes an unhealthy focus on the individual and off the music itself. Of course, I'm not saying people should filter out their genuine reactions in the moment -- whoops, applause bursts, words, etc that come unbidden from deep within us when we're moved by the music. That's the jazz church and I'm all for it. What I'm against is, the "OK, s/he's finished her/his 48 bars, now we must applaud" thing. Also, introducing band members (sometimes multiple times a set)? Jesus, we all know who they are. Again, classical musicians don't do this. I think by elevating the music above the players, we'll reach a place of less scene-driven bullshit. Just my $0.02.
Actually, I think listening to music "inactively" is extremely helpful. I tell my students to listen to jazz while they're doing their homework - let that music seep into your subconscious. When we play music, we externalize the music. If you want the music to come out of you freely, it's gotta get into you freely.
Very interesting video, yet a somewhat mild take on the dogmatic attitudes of far too many jazz musicians. Over the decades I've encountered ridiculously uptight, dogmatic jazz players who have vehemently objected to recording with headphones on; vehemently objected to overdubbing, EQ-ing, and sound processing in the recording studio; vehemently insisted that a hi-hat cymbal should be no larger than 12"; displayed contempt for any guitarist who used a capo, as a capo is, "a cheater"; went nuts over the proposition of playing multiphonics, or non-tempered scales in free time; ranted with great disdain and contempt about the work of Cecil Taylor and Anthony Braxton, who apparently have only produced "self-indulgent jive-ass bullshit"; A certain trombone player I knew once went on a vast diatribe about "Musicians who don't read music haven't paid their dues, they're pussies, they 're not on the case, they can't deal with hard work." I reminded him that a good third of Duke Ellington's orchestra didn't read music. Duke's favorite drummer, Sam Woodyard, didn't read music. Buddy Rich didn't read music. Errol Garner didn't read music. Stephane Grappelli didn't read music.. (I could go on). It's a bit like trying to have a conversation with a dogmatic religious person--objective facts are lost on them. What's interesting about these people is that they all play conventional, codified jazz standards. None of them originate anything. Their whole approach to playing jazz is to look for the rules according to what the music is supposed to be. This is in stark contrast to something Wayne Shorter said not so long before he died: "The six years I was with Miles, we never talked about music. We never had a rehearsal. Jazz shouldn’t have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that’s required to sound like jazz. For me, the word ‘jazz’ means, ‘I dare you.’ The effort to break out of something is worth more than getting an 'A' in syncopation. This music, it’s dealing with the unexpected. No one really knows how to deal with the unexpected. How do you rehearse the unknown?” CHEERS Open Studio.
I tried having a conversation with some jazz musicians outside Ronnie Scotts while having a cigarette and I had been watching and listening to these guys who were playing in the upstairs section of the club and I simply complimented them on their playing and the trumpet player snarled at me huh and then pretty much got a similar type of response from the band leader saying in a dismissive way don't you know Ronnie Scotts is the most famous jazz venue in the world and I said I know I felt like saying when you graduate to playing in the main bar then you can get carried away with your own self importance (but glad I didn't)because if I did you can bet their heads would have swollen even more it was a shame because all the other musicians and people who were there to enjoy the atmosphere were easy going including the bar staff and door men/bouncers
once upon a time musicians learned their instrument, scales, arpeggios and chords and began to improvise with popular tunes that were composed with chord changes 'harmonic movement" and the general population sang along, danced, and tapped their feet, they loved it, then 'jazz' became a music that was "taught" in college, it became academic, it died, it became a closed system, the general population could not relate, it was very clear the love wasn't here to stay, not for a year, never again to this day.
Post modernist marxist talk . There is no such thing as "his truth". Truth is non malleable and non appropriable. 2+2 = 4 indifferent of your feelings. Truth can only be objective truth or not truth at all. This is why it is so precious.
@@CairosNaobum Only people who are incapable of tapping-in to their heart, soul, intuition, and feeling, rave about math and numbers equating to truth. Like Monk said... "either you know or you don't".
@@bobbachelor5930 Is anger still a legitimate feeling? Cause I tap straight into that every time I hear this post-truth garbage…makes me wanna throw Scott Henderson sounds at peoples faces! 🤣
@@bobbachelor5930 you poor m0r0ns. You are losing this battle against reality. I'm so sorry this is happening to you (not). Get lost and good riddance. Garbáge.
Recently a friend musician told me about a recognised classic teacher she had in her teens that prohibited her to improvise, of course!, but even prohibited her to COMPOSE, because there has already been Mozart and Chopin and Beethoven... so it was pointesss. It's a miracle my friend still managed to didn't lose her love for music and got a career. Elitism is ignorance and cowardice too. How much not only talent but love for music , and other fields, is lost forever because bad teachers. Thank you so much Peter, Adam and Open Studio!
This is why Maynard Ferguson was so great. He played all kinds of pop stuff in the 70’s, fused Indian styles and instruments into his recordings, said he didn’t want only keep playing his charts from the 50’s. His music was super energetic, happy and current which was why he had such a big and young fan base.
My mother dated him a few times in the early 50's! Just found that out, like, 10 years ago. I could never stand the guys playing, honestly- but I'm a little more into him now.🤣
Maynard was beyond good at what he did. He caught heat for playing "non-Jazz" music. I never cared for Indian music, but I couldn't get enough when Maynard did it. For me, Maynard is a timeless master craftsman. I miss him.
Thank you for saying this. I’m a guitarist and I have been trying to find jazz guys to play with and learn from and it’s nearly impossible. It’s like I’m never good enough for any of them. They sidestep me and blow me off. I’m not the best guitarist but I’m alright and can play some jazz standards. It’s ridiculous that it’s become so difficult to just play with others who have the same interests.
Go to blues/funk/open mics. Drop in your jazz learnings. Folks will show-up who aren’t “ewww…you’re playing that voicing wrong”, etc. …and more into “let’s play, I like your feel/ sound.” You’ll find jazzers who aren’t square. Music has no limits, and is above egos and limited perspectives.
Peter thank you so much for this... Me being a pianist I also wondered about this too, and I listen to literally everything. Dr Lonnie Smith once said in an interview that all music is beautiful. Jazz anymore is a label that needs to be mended. And as you said there is multitude of musicians and producers around the world that need a listen because they are all GREAT.
I noticed all these characteristics of jazz community and jazz teaching already after a couple of months of trying to learn jazz. This is why I have given up on the idea. I may come back 😊
I think elite level players are a wonderful thing, but elitism is definately toxic. There are great Jazz players who don't want the label of Jazz associated with their music, as they will be attacked for being not good enough.
Jazz shares a problem with many topics that became part of university education. If you can study it officially, then you don´t belong to it, if you didn´t. I love every pop musician, that tries to web lush jazz chords into their productions. By the way, my teacher was Mal Waldron and i became a producer that produces Pop and Jazz and other genres. You´re channel is great. Thank you for that.
What are you talking about? If you're too dumb to learn Jazz don't blame "universities". Most Jazz greats didn't study it formally. They were just smart enough to learn it. It's not for everyone.
I agree, music, as a human creative activity, is constantly shapeshifting. Call it whatever you like between yourself if you like, but as soon as you try hard to define it for others, or create a "value base" to decide what's 'good' and fits in, and what doesn't fit, then it's dying. And the interesting stuff is already happening somewhere else.
Its crazy how it works that way when your often studying culture and how people dealt with oppression, deprivation, ect.. and then some privileged people eat it.. its probably a bit different now.. haven't been around the college scene lately
Peter. I’ve been an Open Studio member for some time and have enjoyed your courses. It is so refreshing to hear a musician of your caliber speak in such a humble and grateful manner if you will. People like you make the rest of feel that there is a piece of the jazz world that we can cultivate for ourselves. Thank u again.
I sometimes use the expression "the tyranny of cool". By that I'm trying to describe people who seriously limit their listening pleasure because they're scared to be thought "uncool". There is so much wonderful music out there and you only live once - explore explore explore! And forget what your peers / friends might think. Some people fall into this trap when they're quite young and never really develop beyond it. I'm not going to name particular artists or bands, only to say that "cool but crap" has a long history!
Elitism happens every time the subject is complex. It’s a way to hide ignorance if you’re “low” and the result of supplication if you’re “high”. People do not want to reveal their ignorance so they use every defense mechanism possible to hide it. Ironically this keeps them ignorant. I see the same thing in audio. People kind of decide for themselves how far they’ll go to learn. A few try to act like they know more than they do and that’s usually when they act poorly. The luminaries are mostly unreachable so it’s a field of crabs, a parliament of dedicated ones and a handful of “elites”. Generally everyone earns their spot. Still, it’s a game for the loud. I think a lot of intelligent people just observe, maybe graciously ask questions and get on with their life. I mean, if you’ve got time to gate keep and brown nose the big dog, you probably don’t have time to do the work. Jazz is a huge topic and everyone has an ego that wants acceptance. No way can some people let themselves be simple and ignorant. And what’s wrong with it? Babies are totally ignorant and totally happy. Maybe ignorance is bliss!
The director Orson Welles once limited when being told that a lot of these films were "Ahead of their time" responded "I wish I could be 'On Time' for once!"
You are 1000% dead on with this. Even today I get impressed looks when I play some chords... but then the shock and awe when I tell them (jazz players) that it's a Chris Brown song, their brain explodes. Ever since I went to music school my tastes and inspirations became *BROADER* and *MORE ECLECTIC* instead of more isolated and dogmatic.
I always felt the Young Lions period in the 80s further pushed the elitism to higher levels, to the detriment of the Jazz genre. There was always cross-pollination of Jazz with other genres, and it seems like artists like Jon Batiste, Robert Glasper, Thundercat, etc., have helped to encourage the overlapping of genres. Less Silo-ing is better.
You have touched on a sensitive topic with me. I love jazz music. But for the most part I hate jazz musicians due to their stuck up snobish attitude towards music. They just don't get it. If non jazz music brings people joy then so be it, even if may not be my cup of tea. This issue is nothing new. I have been disassociating myself as a jazz musician for some 40 years now. They can have their cult like status, I dont 't want any part of it. There now, I'm thru venting.
the problem is every kid comes out of jazz school sounding the same. no one has developed their own sound and they just regurgitate what has been done by the masters in the past.
Elitism stifles creativity. This will never change because creativity is all about viewing and approaching your medium differently than what has already been the established method.
As a teenager learning music, the thing that made me fall in love with jazz was how it always pushed the boundaries of music for its time. From post-ragtime into swing, big band, be-bop, hard-bop, avant-garde, and into fusion etc, jazz was pushing music and challenging musical status quo. I fell out of love with jazz when i started going to jazz shows and trying to play jazz and realized it's no longer pushing music towards the future. It's mostly rehashing jazz's past. 90% of jazz shows are people trying to emulate Trane and Davis, Evans, and Coleman, etc. But, jazz did that already. And i get it to some extent. That music was great. Those musicians were some of the greatest. Of course we want to play their songs and play like them. I love playing old funk, r&b, and motown songs on bass. But jazz as a concept seemed like it went from "always progress" to "jazz must be like what these dudes from the 50s and 60s did." I find way more musical boundary pushing in other genres these days, especially electronic music. That said, it's a rainy day in NYC so i'm gonna listen to Kind of Blue, because that will always be the soundtrack to rainy days in NYC.
As a pop musician with very rudimentary jazz skills but a deep appreciation for the craft this was a great talk. I play multiple times a week with serious jazz musicians down here in ATL in corporate bands or otherwise. I’ve felt the feelings of hate keeping you’re describing but to be honest very rarely, almost never, was it something tangible something anyone said to me or made me feel. Most jazz musicians are just incredible musicians I have a lot of respect for who sound great across a lot of genres. Great talk looking forward to improving my meager skills on your channel!
You're a breath of fresh air and have articulated publicly what I've felt for years. I love jazz but loath the cult of the 'jazz scene'. It's very destructive. A very courageous video! I've played with some name people in my time and the. nicest jazz musicians amongst them with were the ones who also worked in the studios, did pop records, films, like Randy Brecker and Ernie Watts etc, as I did. for much of my career. Then there was another group who were insufferable- Bebop nazis I believe was the term used to describe them in those days. I've left it behind now and write for orchestras now - and have to agree with you, classical musicians are far more open than jazz musicians. A shame but when I was growing up, I always regarded jazz as the hippest most liberating music on earth. I didn't realise it was as free as the iron curtain.
Great point. As a guitar player, when I started long ago (I'm 71), the joke was always "how do you get a guitar player to shut up? - put sheet music in front of him". So later after I learned to read, the next disdain was "real players don't read music, they only learn from records. Don't show up at the jam session with a Real Book". Meanwhile, the commercial world (think MTV), changed the paradigm from what the music sounded like to what the artists look like. And then, music abandoned the cafes and was only in stadiums where promoters could make big money. And you better be young and beautiful. What's wrong is that we've disinvited everyone so that no one except a handful of superheroes are left. My sense is that its better in Europe and Asia.
Just because jazz isn't being played at the Super Bowl doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The genre and community around it are alive and well, as the existence of Open Studio shows.
@@jimkangas4176 and how much jazz is played outside of clubs? or even _can_ be? even makes any _sense_ outside a small room with small drinks and a large cover?
The problem is the whole concept of specialization as applied to what we call “the arts.” In many traditional cultures “the arts” were natural expressions of the rhythms and textures of life. With empires we got specialists who provided commodities. Someone said in one such traditional culture (Borneo?), “we don’t have ‘art.’ We just like to do everything well.”
As a jazz drummer I stopped performing because I find most of the music to be what I call a museum pieces. Where it was once an evolving community and a language, it has now mostly become a cliche of itself. I don’t think it would be too far-fetched to say that guys like Thelonious Monk wouldn’t even be considered if he were to apply to university today. Think about that.
You are spot on with this. And it has been going on for decades, to the detriment of the music. I am old enough to remember when Branford Marsalis -- whose credentials as jazz royalty should be unquestioned -- got tons of flak for playing in a band with Sting. Instead of giving Sting credit for digging into his jazz roots and getting some legit players to advance his music, it was "Branford sold out." Ridiculous. Remember that when jazz music started, the musicians were "jazzing up" the popular songs of the day. Miles did this throughout his career and also took flak for it -- but hey, he sold a lot of records and his covers of "Human Nature" and "Time After Time" were cool and helped bring a new generation in to appreciate "The Birth of the Cool" and "Tune Up." Herbie Hancock and a lot of great jazz musicians still do this. And this does happen in other genres also. Bob Dylan got booed mercilessly by folk music fans when he plugged in his guitar and played with a rock band.
I went in for some jazz lessons last year and everyone else there was either using a Telecaster or an Archtop and they were all using amps, either classical or faux-classical, with not a pedal between them. They were all at the first class asking how to get the 'jazz sound' so they all their tone dialed low etc, just carbon copies of each other. And I was there with a Schecter guitar made for metal with modern Fishman pick-ups and a Quad Cortex connected to a Presonus monitor speaker and not even caring to get a sound like everyone else, using frowned upon FX with the philosophy that jazz is in how you play not something living in the equipment or in a preset. It felt punk. XD
as a reedman, we don't have pedals and pickups, but our allegiance to gear means just as much. for instance: _never_ play a Buescher saxophone. i don't care if you can kick nine kinds of ass on your Buescher - _no serious cat played them._ well, except Sonny Rollins, who used one for awhile in the '60s. but you need to be at least as good as him to play one yourself. and you ain't. so don't mess with 'em.
jazz was the punk of it's time...on the one hand it is weird to make it into a very formal precise copy of a bygone time, but if people want that, they aren't wrong
You hit the nail on the head. During high school in the 1980s, I enjoyed jazz band because it allowed me a chance to create stuff on the piano. Even though I was classically trained, I enjoyed rock music, especially progressive rock, and always wondered why my piano professor (I studied with Dr. David Rostkoski of Eastern Washington University from the 9th grade through the end of college) and other classically trained music teachers didn't like rock music. When I got to college, I discovered that the elitism amongst many of the older professors was also towards anything tonal written by 20th-century composers - the same elitism you describe by jazz musicians. When one studies the history of jazz, it followed that of classical music very closely, even to the point of the atonal music written by Eric Dolphy. While at EWU, I played trumpet in band and orchestra and piano in jazz band for only my sophomore year. During my junior year at EWU, we got a new jazz instructor who was a very skilled pianist. I knew that I hadn't comped properly the previous year when playing for the university jazz band and I asked him for some private lessons. He said, "No." No reasons, just a firm no. This was the beginning of the elitism that I was beginning to discover in the jazz community. Years later, when I would take my students to jazz festivals, I would encounter overly critical judges when it came to the rhythm section - many who had just begun playing their instrument that year. I also began noticing the hypocrisy on the sheet music. In concert band, student are taught to read what is on the printed page; yet, in jazz band, eighth notes aren't slurred, tied notes over the beat aren't written with accents - the students are "supposed to know," or infer, how to play what is written. Is it surprising that jazz is now the least purchased music today?
The biggest problem with the jazz scene is the "Real Book Mentality". Everyone has 2000+ songs at their disposal. They are playing tunes they have not studied and that are poorly documented in the Real Books with changes/melody that can be so bad the mood and context of tune has been destroyed. I stopped using the Real Books in my own bands years ago. My band book only has about 90 tunes in it. But these are my favorite tunes and I have done a deep dive into every tune. 15 are originals. I have listened to several versions of every tune and transcribed intros/outros, changes and melody variations to get a version of the song that I feel is most accurate captures it best. Every song has been re-charted using music notation software. I use a setlist that will cover a wide range of jazz and I send it out ahead of time to all the players in the group. I talk briefly on the mic between songs to smooth out the transition time between songs to get the listeners engaged. I try my best to look like I'm having fun (because I am!) when I'm on stage. There's a lot jazz musician can learn from pop musicians. If you do it write people won't say stuff like "All jazz sounds the same." If you do it right they will say how much they love your music. I do play unorganized pickup gigs that use the "Real Book Mentality". It is what it is. And entertaining, it is not.
Dallas Fort Worth just lost its only Jazz radio station: College community Jazz station KNTU. It’s been the station here for over 40 years , and poof. Gone. Their listenership was way down and sponsors dropped out. Not sure if it was due to “elitism” but Dallas Fort Worth is a huge market, and this was the only jazz station we had, so I’m certainly suspect. And North Texas University where the station was based is one of the top music programs in the country.
About 30 years ago, in city of Gdańsk and nearby Bydgoszcz, young people decided to mix jazz language with punk rock ethnos, and to emphasize difference from elitist mainstream jazz, they called it jass. And they made really big impact on music of that region. Check out group like "Miłość" who started that gengre.
Metal is currently suffering from the same fatigued elitism. Everything sounds the same and this ridiculous emphasis on unrealistic technical showcasing is just making it so dull, predictable and uninspired. Its taken all personality and style out of it. Theres no room for different levels of artistry. Especially when it comes to the production. If it doesnt sound like hard hitting samples, this generation cant comprehend or appreciate it.
I remember a young jazz musician saying in an interview (I'll have to look it up), that jazz culture has this kind of paradox where you have to respect and internalize the giants that came before you in order to build on what they've laid down. But it's also important for each new generation to actually feel free to reject and even "disrespect" their sound, because you have to do that in order to make a new sound. And each generation almost has a duty to try to make a new sound to keep this art form alive and vital. And he thought that showing too much deference to the past giants was actually preventing the art form from moving forward. I was really inspired by his rant because it made me feel empowered to try to make my own sound in the jazz world, but also even to study the giants. It's a funny process. You really need to internalize the giants to even know how to properly disrespect them, but that disrespect is actually even a kind of deeper respect for them by carrying the torch they got so far with even further down the road. It's a disrespect on the surface that taps into a deeper love. I'll really try to find that interview and I'll edit it in here if I do because I think it's a good follow-up to this video. Edit: I can't find it at all. I found this Matthew Shipp interview which is channeling that same kind of energy esp. in Parts 3 & 4, but he doesn't distill it like that video interview I saw. www.furious.com/perfect/matthewshipp.html
@@aronhollinger2818 I like that cat's podcast a lot, but the one I'm thinking about was from years ago. But you're right, he has that energy too. I think a lot of jazz musicians probably do.
what's wrong with jazz is no one listens to jazz any more - children's music sells more - jazz died with Miles - it's stuck in the 50's and no new talent can survive let alone break through
I'm a jazz musician in NYC, but I also play a lot of country and honkytonk music. I can safely say that there are very few jazz musicians who can hang on a country session in Nashville. At the end of the day, getting inside a specific style is an art. Jazz musicians can't just play any other style, off the cuff, without a serious amount of work and study. I was in a country band in NY for a while and it was extremely difficult to find a competent bass player.
"Academic Jazz" is what I've been calling it, like kids who followed music from childhood to adulthood, went to an acclaimed music school, often but not always from privileged backgrounds. Incredible talent and objectively good musicians in every way, but the music itself is devoid of soul and seems to be made to impress peers. I think there's resentment in the community towards far less talented musicians who exceed them in success, which leads to a pathology of thinking people have poor taste in music, "people just don't get how good I am." It has the potential to be a very self-serving narcissistic genre with the improvisation component, the audience too often seems to be a second thought.
Just stumbled onto your channel. You definitely said what I've been feeling for years, and why I ultimately decided to not pursue the jazz path. Don't misunderstand me, I LOVE Miles, Herbie, Monk, Ellington, Stan Kenton, Metheny, Scofield and Holdsworth as much as anybody. I play guitar and bass, plowing my own quirky little furrow with a rock/funk hybrid that utilizes elements of jazz. I did take a plunge into the jazz world for a while as a bassist. I'm grateful for how it expanded my vocabulary, but ultimately got turned off by the rigidity and elitism I encountered (really hated the prejudice against playing jazz on an electric bass). Real artistry can happen in so many types of music and I'm so glad you convey that in your commentary. Thank you for your presence and conviction!
I have felt this way for years. I've been playing music for more than 50 years. I don't interact with jazz musicians because of their snobbish, elitism. The people they idolize always pushed the envelope. But, they won't, preferring to stay stuck. They cannot tell me what to think, what to say, who to say it about, or what to think. I saw the video you reference. It was great. Forget them. If they aren't paying you or booking you, forget them. Even if they are, forget them. Jazz is great. It is fluid, not static. Snobbish jazz musicians not so much. And, they are partially responsible for the decline of the music in our country. Uuuggghhhh!
Thanks for talking about these issues! I work mainly as a session and tour musician - but I had the experience being excluded when I played a tour with a symphony orchestra, I certainly feel elitism among jazz musicians, in the studio, more pop-oriented world I know the feeling being singled out because "what, you don't like artist .... and .... ?" (usually some 70s rock stuff). Musicians seem to organise themselves in castes - here in Hamburg the classical guys, the jazz guys, the musical guys, the pub/party guys, and us session players - and we don't seem to mix and hence draw borders. That always surprised me and seems so unnecessary. It's all music. So again - thanks for getting this ball rolling and cheers from Hamburg!
eclecticism is the way of the post-modern age...except in jazz, the last stand of the modernists. mind you, they don't know what modernism _is,_ they just unthinkingly embody it.
Music - select a genre and go die with it. It is a seething mass of equally dismissive subcultures, and one is not allowed to actually like music, but serve the identarian sub-culture. They are not called "Cross Over Albums" for nothing. So like Hollywood where there are 3 controlling subcultures that you must belong to one in order to survive, the Scientologists, the Marijuana smokers, and the Sexually confused. Take your pick or leave town.
brother, you are on point. My sentiments exactly. Many classical musicians are incredibly wide ranging in their musical tastes and interests, and this is refreshing. Lotta country artists too listen all sort of music a lot of jazz.
The best comeback to jazz elitism is to ask how much money did you make last month. Not talking smooth jazz. Many of the jazz musicians I know are pretty chill and good natured.
Truth is that the guys who started this ball rolling couldn’t have been less elitist and more eclectic. Back in the world of turn of the century New Orleans, emerging African American musicians trying to supplement their income in the nightlife world grabbed everything around them that was available: white music teachers, instruments that today are not really standard in jazz but might’ve been hanging around in corners in schools’ music classrooms, pop tunes, folk tunes, music hall throwaway stuff, scraps of harmony from the classic repertoire, anything and everything! 😂 Beyoncé by contrast is half way there, jazz wise (or the scope-limited thing we call jazz nowadays)!
OMG, people can be so petty! Not you, Peter; so appreciate you doing this program. Good music = connects and moves people. Labels do a disservice and keeps you in your head when the heart is where it's at.
I’m nearly 60 and would consider myself fortunate. I had a strictly, “band stand” education. I worked with nothing but music much older club date musicians who knew all of the actual standards. At the same time, I also loved music of my grand parents, patents, and my era. What I have seen for the last 25 years are people being taught by people with upper level degrees who have 30 songs memorized that no one wants to hear, teaching their students the same thing. I have played every type of music in a rhythm section. No one will pay big money to hear me play a screaming solo, but, if someone asks for, “Giant Steps”, I can make it believable enough, but, I can also play everything from traditional jazz to now. Guys like Oscar Peterson, Clark Terry, Keith Jarrett, Tatum, Getz….and SO many more from that era were “tunesmiths”. That’s where I see the big failure. It has killed decent paying club date work over the years. They play the wrong tunes, they don’t play the room, and then get mad at their audience for not loving what they’re doing. I’ve been around plenty of college players just in the last few years. It is beneath them to play Satin Doll or Yesterday( Beatles) but the real problem is they don’t know what to do with it. It isn’t their fault. My career was unceremoniously cut short from Disney in early 2020. I played piano in the rhythm section of the Grand Floridian Society Orchestra. Some of the most requested tunes, and by younger people, were 1950s early 60s era Frank Sinatra tunes. Here is a story on that elitism. When I was 25 I was on a big band gig. I was the youngest guy in the band by 15 years. Well, a young hot shot about my age moved to town who who just graduated from an elite school in Texas. He vibed me the entire first set. We are playing a commercial background gig so nobody’s playing anything crazy except him. Anyhow, we come out for the second set, and someone wants happy birthday. The singer usually sings it in F. The leader was a cool guy, and he knew this guy had been vibing me so I looked over as to hint to make him play along with this. Well, instead of playing C7 as the set up, I played B7 as the singer didn’t know or care. This guy proceeded to step all over his ______, and The whole band knew what I had done, and so did he. He apologized and we were fine. Well, that’s my long, bloated story. I like this video and have enjoyed reading all the other posts.
jazz is the spirit of innovation and improvisation. it cannot be contained. that spirit is inclusive, and draws everything towards itself, whether you like it or not. like right now, "purists" are hating on DOMi and JD Beck, and say they're not jazz. but jazz can never sit still or in one place. it HAS to move on. like, how do you define Brad Mehldau now? how do you define or categorise his current work? is it purely jazz in the traditional sense? i don't think so, but it IS still jazz. just like DOMi and JD Beck. i think the problem is with both the practitioners AND the fandom. i've had arguments with "elitist" fans, and what about Wynton Marsalis? BUT the majority of musicians, i truly believe, are not purists or traditionalists. i would say every jazz musician i've met and talked with all my years as a journalist were very cool people who love, and are open to, all good music and don't pigeonhole anything. but one thing i would say about jazz music - it's not lazy music.
Glad you made a video on this. Personally, I was really beginning to become uninterested in jazz with the "unwritten rules" you must follow as a jazz musician. Luckily, I heard Branford Marsalis' quartet live and it changed my life. I've seen some great musicians, but I've never seen musicians like that being able to command a room's attention with their playing and the absolute energy that filled the room was insane. I started listening to interviews of Branford, and my approach changed where I realized all these "unwritten rules" that need to be followed don't matter at all. Now I'm actually enjoying practicing more and I have more fun than ever before listening and playing the music I like.
And Branford is a great case in point here, too: who did he play with for a number of years in the late 80s, along with Kenny Kirkland? It wasn't in the "jazz" category, but there's nothing wrong with playing with the former lead singer of The Police. Bonus: Branford's love of opera, which has *clearly* influenced his playing and compositions.
I think that, like classical music, jazz has to be popularized more and more by the media and by musicians in order to bring the style more and more to the majority of people, always. Although the mainstream media is concerned with disclosing only the most fashionable songs of the moment, this is also complicated and needs to be reviewed.
There are all sorts of music snobs. I've found that classical musicians can very well be elitist as well. And rock, pop and R&B musicians don't have to be elitist because they're popular. Other music isn't a threat to them.
I'm concerned with this as well, especially as an outsider myself. I draw from the jazz medium, but I love to go outside and draw from all genres and doing crazy art alongisde everything. I want jazz to be fun and accessible to everyone
@@pianopeter Who does "everyone" mean? People raised on TV watching? What is "non-elitist" in our USA? The answer is: US mass media TV (movies, pop music, comics). Jazz music is an intergenerational global conservatory composition and performing art form. Anyone who "doesn't like" that can watch TV instead. Their "likes" simply don't matter. Mass media entertainment is "popular" but then rapidly forgotten. The business model for mass media entertainment is streams of rapidly forgotten novelties. Jazz and classical music are not part of that business model. Jazz and classical music are for remembering over many generations. This is how things are. Nothing will change that. In any case, "jazz" is not up to Americans anymore.
@@scottmcloughlin4371 "Accessible to everyone" doesn't mean it IS for everyone, just that it's ACCESIBLE to everyone. The elitism I spoke of is when we anoint (or allow) a select group to decide who gets access. Gatekeepers, folks that try to say what you should or shouldn't like...what's good and what's bad.
@@pianopeter I had two female friends from Harvard and Yale who worked in the pop music business. Pop music garbage is POPULARIZED. It's not "popular" (an adjective). It's POPULARIZED (a verb). Despite fake reality shows on TV, broadcast mass media music is not a "talent contest" at all. Fake "stars" are engineered. The folksy myths are created by writers like my idiotic friends from college. What WHO are you referring to? Listeners? Or performers? Jazz is not popular in the USA. Everyone has opinions on what they "like" and "don't like." Why do you care so much? What utopia do you possibly imagine?
Peter, thanks for this very important video. You've said a mouthful. I'll admit that I'm very particular about what I listen to, as most people are. I'm 67 and grew up on Led Zeppelin, The Allman Bros, and Jimi Hendrix. I love jazz, especially small groups - duos, trios, etc. I play guitar and tend to lean towards Art Blakey, Horace Silver, Wayne Shorter, Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, George Benson, Jimmy Smith, Don Patterson, Stanley Turrentine, Lee Morgan, Hank Mobley, Diana Krall, Jobim, Eliane Elias and more. I am fortunate to play gigs. I'm not at jazz club level, but do get to play a lot of Real Book gigs at bars, restaurants, country clubs, art galleries, corporate events, private parties, etc. I am background music, LOL! Having said that, I don't tend to listen to Beyonce, because I'd rather spend my time listening to classic jazz(call me a snob😎). But, very happy to hear when current artists are doing something that is interesting, especially using dominant 7#9 chords and more. So keep doing what you're doing at open studio. I love it. To point out how bad the jazz eletist problem is, I have friends who don't want to play Girl From Ipanema on a gig, because it's too popular, too cliche. I know that I rarely play in front of a jazz audience and it may be one of the few tunes that is recognized. If it's my gig, we're playing it, haha. Thanks again!!!!⁰
Totally agree. Thanks for doing this and pushing things in the right direction. Jazz is better for your efforts. Love You'll Hear It and Open Studio Jazz.
It bums me out that people watched this video and are _still_ gatekeeping and clinging to the exact elitism Peter is speaking about in the comments Maybe jazz just attracts people lacking in self awareness
For sure Beyoncé as an artist. John Coltrane is too. An artist is a person engaged in an activity related to creating art, practicing the arts, or demonstrating an art. The common usage in both everyday speech and academic discourse refers to a practitioner in the visual arts only. However, the term is also often used in the entertainment business, especially in a business context, for musicians and other performers.
BERKLEE and other college and high school jazz programs are a part of the problem. See the video jazz elder Gary Bartz made like 15 years ago titled: Does Jazz Education Have It Backwards? Part of the elitism I think must start there and play a large part in creating it along the way. I have read about this more and more in recent years the so called jazz schools turn out very competent but samey players with little differences, little of their own sound, more chops less feel, less soul. Since they all learn via the same academic dogmatic rules by the same teachers year after yea, in a competitive environment, leading to who can outplay and outcompose who over the hardest changes, most complex dissonant abstractions, etc. Then after graduating they take all that into their respective scenes (most often nyc which is high competitive and just reinforces that, but even smaller cities usually have little groups of berklee grads that naturally form and come to dominate/gatekeep the local scene and most gigs. And since they paid for such degree (more likely their rich parents) those who could afford jazz school tend to be of a certain demographic (white upper middle class most likely) which reinforces the sameness and lack of diversity of thought, sound, style, playing, etc.
Just saw this from jazz bassist Anthony Tidd: "University education, with its regimented methodology, standardized curriculums, statistics, rules, entrance requirements, privilege, certification, and, of course, associated tuition costs, quite literally changed the face of jazz"
i love this discussion. i’m commenting as i pause the video to come and finish it later. i hate the jazz museums like lincoln cemetery (i decided auto-correct was correct in correcting my typo) and SF Jazz that get erected. they are dead and soulless places. “Jazz” should be played more in “pop” rooms. in the span of ~1 year i saw Kamasi 3x. The Warfield SF, the Independent SF and SF Jazz. the SF Jazz show was dead and occupied by a bunch of 70 year old “members” who are Chet Baker and Bill Evans fans and just had no interest in what Kamasi was putting down. they were literally walking out. the warfield and independent shows were 2 of my favorite concert experiences ever.
"Why are we not celebrating Jonathan Batiste?" Because we're damn idiots. He is such a fantastic talent. Agreed also that Rick Beato has done a great job of exposing jazz to a wider audience. He's a model of how to do this--a great ambassador of jazz for a wider audience--in part because of just how catholic his musical tastes are. I think a lot of this comes down from the old split between Bebop and (what got called at the time) Rhythm & Blues. These were, after all, players who all came from the same late swing jazz world, and who were responding, in different ways, to the massive cultural & economic shake up of WWII. The difference is that some of them took the music in a direction that emphasized music's role as a kind of self-conscious art (say, Charlie Parker), and others who took it in a direction of preserving its role as the accompaniment for dancing & good times (say, Louis Jordan). They were *both* being true to the tradition, just in different ways. As it happens, the latter fork in that road led to Rock and Roll (really just R&B rebranded, but taken up by white musicians, who capitalized on it in ways its African-American inventors of it never could, reaching young mass audiences of all races), and thereby rose to great heights on the wings of massive cross-over acceptance, whereas the latter became, with occasional semi--popular breakthroughs, a music for a more limited (albeit very intense) and often self-consciously counter-cultural audience. Another way to say this is that the white audience for black music split into "high" and "low" segments. It would be cool if we could all recall that these musics have a common root. That Chuck Berry played at the Newport Jazz Festival alongside Louis Armstrong; that Charlie Parker recorded "mambo" and pre-rock tunes; that some first-rate blues tenor players had huge Rock n Roll hits in the 50s; that Big Joe Turner and Art Tatum made records together FFS; that Stevie Wonder & EW&F & Chic (yes Chic!) brought jazz harmonies to mass publics; that (as brother Roy put it) the Jazz guys were the fathers of the Funk guys who were the fathers of the Hip-Hop guys; that a lot of the best "gamer" music even today is in spirit as much "jazz" as anything that was being penned in the 1950s & 60s. I yield to no one in my love of the classic "hard bop" era. That is & will always be my heart's home base--the music that opened my ears. But remember: that whole era was based on the idea that bebop had gotten too exclusive, too technical for its own good & it's own sake, etc., and that it was criticized *at the time* for its 'simplicity' and 'pandering' to the audience's preference for straightforward blues tunes. Like, Horace Silver & Art Blakey were the original "sell outs"--which should tell you all need to know about how seriously to take that kind of crap. And, yeah, anybody who dogmatically rejects the music Steely Dan, or The Police, or Diana Krall, or later Nat Cole, or Beyonce (WTF?) because it's "not jazz" needs to shut their damn mouth.
This is the great Wynton vs Herbie debate. We owe Wynton a debt of gratitude for getting jazz recognized as an important cultural artifact like European Classical and this opened the door to the music education that created tons of great artists who would have never been as informed had these jazz education programs not existed, but Herbie is closer to Miles in terms of always being a visionary, pushing forward, blowing away boundaries and considering any preservation effort as a dead museum piece. Truth is the Tao of BOTH views united and definitely many jazz players have become far too legalistic & dogmatic, which makes hardcore players NOT want to call their heavily jazz influenced music "jazz" in order to avoid all the judgmental genre nazis... with a "jazz? oh NO, this is a jam band" /sidestep
I think that what you're saying is spot on! I also feel that many jazz players are rewarded because of their regurgitatining lines and technical licks from yesteryear! Creativity and Individuality is gone! I have always thought the the word jazz means exploring sounds and trying to develop ones own style! Yes! We all have our influnces! And there are some pretty amazing musicians! Keith Jarrett, Ornette, Howlin' Wolf and Jan Garbarek are some of the first thoughts that come to my mind! They are so unique and individual in their music! There are so many more too! But that has already been done! So can the music of jazz please move on! Or maybe the music of jazz can't move on!
The culture of the foundational black Americans that created this music has been stripped from it. Rather than jazz being learned from the musicians that created it and the practical application in which a certain skill should be used most jazz is taught in schools or on UA-cam. Miles, Mingus, Roach and many others are on record saying that they hate the term jazz because it forces an ideology of what “jazz” is supposed to be. All of the greats inherently understood that “jazz” is one piece of an interconnected musical lineage created by foundation black Americans, and that you can’t have one style of music without the other. All of the greats listened to R&B, gospel ,Blues etc and all of these styles are in there music. The problem with jazz right now is that the culture has been stripped from the music, the spirit has been ripped from the music, and the ideologies that made the music great from the start and now looked down upon when applied to a modern context. If you want to fix jazz then return it to the culture and understand the roots of the music that made it special in the first place.
The death of the actual music business was another torpedo into Jazz's side. By the 80's-90's, Jazz (in all its forms) was steadily creeping farther into our mainstream. As record sales have gone away, jazz itself has become owned by the institutions and snobs. Both were always there and were significant, as a cursory look at any old Downbeat magazine will confirm, but the market being a dominant influence is all but gone.
Music is Music. If one thing comes that you don´t like, then tune it out, never listen to it-that is one way. But when I hear something I don´t like, I check it out because maybe I, as a player, am lacking the knowledge to hear it and should listen to more of it. A lot of times it opens up for me and makes me a better player.
That's a real dilemma. A vital part of jazz is craft, and that's _not_ about joy. It's about our debt to the music: falling short, over and over, until somehow you don't.
No one is stopping the dumbed down masses from making their own jazz. However your approach is we must dumb down the current jazz scene to make it accessable to the the dumbed down masses. Let them make their own dumbed down jazz and play it in their own dumbed down clubs, no one is stopping them.
I saw a beautiful jazz show tonight. Everything about it was good. When this happens to you, you feel lucky to be alive and fortunate to experience deep creativity.
Liked when you said the word "Jazz" sucks. If you remember, Miles Davis hated that name. As many greats have said, "There are two types of music. Good or bad" and even that is subjective! I agree with everything you said about the state of jazz today. This music should never be considered an art form frozen in the past. Jazz is very much a living, breathing, organism that represents the present moment. The idea of improvising this music where we create instant melodies on the spot that may never be repeated the next time you play that song, is simply incredible and very much in the moment period!. I believe that jazz music can touch the mainstream as witnessed by the younger generation. It has to touch and resonate with the public no matter how or where. Jazz is a music that can grow and expand traversing various styles and influences. Let's stop trying to protect it. Instead let us all expand it and promote it to the general public by educating them and giving the audience an opportunity to hear this music and participate. Thanks for taking the time to read my comment. Perry Pansieri, fiunder of PNP JAZZ Records.
I'm always trying to convince people to listen to jazz. Especially when they tell me, oh it's too complicated. But there are so many styles. I tell them start with old-time singers/players and then try Clifford Brown, Bill Evans, Chick Corea...you will familiarize with the sound. I'm also into neo soul/gospel, they're i influencing the way I play. But I also listen to Earl Hines, Bud Powell, Sarah Vaughan. And yes, Diana Krall. Always broaden your horizons! Thanks, Peter!
There's nothing wrong with the music, but the way the peoble and fans discus it and giving the musicians and their music points. In classic music you have to follow a certain line to be educated, whereafter you might go for a place in an orchestra or you might be that number 1 of several thousen who is going to make it as a soloist. Both can count themselves as lucky. It's difficult enough to get an apointment with an orchestra and practically impossible to become a soloist. In jazz all musicians have to be soloist and that's the point. There are simply not enough bigbands for the musicians to get a living from it. And even there they have to regards themselves as soloists . In dayly life, you will be regarded as a great musician if you play in a symfoniorchestra. In the jazzworld you have to be a soloist, to be regarded as a good musician.
I am a jazz Clarinetist trying to break into the jazz scene, and I have absolutely no idea how to do it. I put up a couple videos on my channel, but I don't know how to get any attention for them. I've been trying to sit in on gigs advertized as jazz, but when I get there they're playing hip hop and funk. And then when I did finally find a jazz gig, the saxophone player leading it wouldn't let me sit in with them. And then as I was leaving, I heard him talking to a friend he didn't know was in the audience saying that he would have let him sit in and play if he had known he was there. I spent the last 11 years practicing as much as I could so I could play great music for people. But I'm definitely having trouble getting in the scene and getting work. And I think your videos very accurate. Seems to me like a lot of established jazz musicians have no interest in helping the younger generation to get in and play and leave their mark. Do you have any advice for someone like me? I appreciate the content. Thank you
I just checked out your channel and you sound great! You got some killer chops. I had the same problem and if i could give you any advice, i would say you have to put yourself on. Don't wait for other people to say yes or to give you an opportunity. Just do it yourself. Find local players whose playing you like and start your own group. Contact every single local bar, restaurant, coffee shop, art gallery, hotel etc that you can and sell yourself. Tell them they can advertise having a "jazz night" which will get them more customers. Really sell them on how "classy" it is and how much more booze they'll sell if it's a venue that sells alcohol or how much more $$$ they'll make (which is all they care about anyway) Negotiate a fair price and split the pay between you and your band equally. Musicians all over the world are used to getting ripped off..something as small as giving someone an extra $10 so you both make the same amount of money can form lifelong loyalty/bonds. If it's difficult to find people to start a group with, you might have to pay musicians out of pocket at first..sometimes you'll make money, sometimes you'll lose money, and sometimes you'll break even, but what matters is you're out doing what you love and building towards a future where you're making money every single time. Even if you can't find a full band, you could try to put together a duo with a bassist/pianist/guitarist. Even just two melodic instruments could be interesting, especially when it comes to accompaniment. And if that doesn't work you can always just use backing tracks at first. But you need to have your own gigs, no matter how small they are at first. You need to get your name out there. Also make as many videos as you can and post as much as you can. Every day if possible. Use TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, etc to post your videos but make sure you're consistent. Once you build up an audience people will start coming to see you and you'll be able to start getting better gigs at better venues and charging more. And try and jam with as many musicians as you possibly can. Not only is it fun but you're meeting new people and forming new connections with people who have their own networks of people. You'd be surprised how many gigs you can get just from jamming with new people. I don't know where in the world you are but if you're ever in LA hmu I'm always down to jam. Good luck bro and just remember what Jay Z said: "I'll sell ice in the winter, I'll sell fire in hell, I am a hustler baby I'll sell water to a whale." You got this
@@inyokutse I really appreciate the advice. Best advice I've gotten honestly Yeah I stay here in LA. Hit me up anytime we can play. But I'm really going to make some effort to do what you said. It all makes a lot of sense and it is something that I can do. Thank you so much for the advice.
the Coltrane/Beyonce vid --> ua-cam.com/video/dz7kjzDYW28/v-deo.html
#triggered
Ok
Did Beyonce make a jazz album!? You do realize the difference between what Ella Fitzgerald did vs what Beyonce produces!?
It would be interesting for someone to play you say 5 recordings of jazz pianists playing the same song, blind to who each one is.
Somebody would pick these out and only one would be famous. Then rank them.
Bring out the "one hit wonders" of jazz. Sometimes players have very short recording careers and some song they did is just a good as the
established known name players,. It's the same thing in fine art painting, we are heavily biased by esteemed names we already know and even with the greats
some of their pieces are not great. Likewise some obscure player might have done only one thing that was exceptional that was captured on a recording.
Another bias we have is for an innovator. Then someone comes along and imitates their style to an extent. That person might actually have made a better piece of art if you heard it
blindly. But we are biased in not seeing it as highly because they weren't the inventor of the style. They weren't the genius who did it first.
@@sat1241 All that lionizing not only hurts the jazz community, it also hurt the academic music ("classical") community. All the time you hear the same 3 big names (Bach, Mozart, Beethoven) and other amazing composers are left out of the convo and some, like Schönberg, are even demonized.
The problem with the community very much has to do with elitism. Alienating not only non jazz fans, as well as aspiring jazz musicians of all ages, elitism is an extremely toxic and corrosive attitude. It is so present in our community that it pushes people away that would otherwise be a valuable asset to us all.
Ok, ok...
❤❤
Oi Vay, I find this comment very anti-semantic.
@@XU23 No, it's completely false. What is "non-elitist" in our USA? The answer is: US mass media TV (movies, pop music, comics). Jazz music is an intergenerational global conservatory composition and performing art form. Anyone who "doesn't like" that can watch TV instead. Their "likes" simply don't matter. Mass media entertainment is "popular" but then rapidly forgotten. The business model for mass media entertainment is streams of rapidly forgotten novelties. Jazz and classical music are not part of that business model. Jazz and classical music are for remembering over many generations. This is how things are. Nothing will change that. In any case, "jazz" is not up to Americans anymore.
@@scottmcloughlin4371 I see what you are saying, but you are really over-complicating this issue.
It's as simple as "don't give a kid the silent treatment because he out-soloed you at a jam." You'd be surprised how many jazz musicians act this way.
During the last 30 years, jazz has become monopolized by the higher institutions of music education. Jazz is the music language you study most, when not studying strict classical music. As such, it has become a "treehouse club" where only people with the right connections from school and the papers to prove it, is allowed in on the jam. They also learn from the same "sources" and come out, with a pretty fixed and uniform idea of what jazz is and how it should sound.
This. And while some of these educations and institutions put out some creative and exiting musicians, some places it just seems completely dogmatized. Especially in the US. It seems like the exact iconizing and storytelling, a certain snapshot of an idea of music history has been been blown up to a completely unattainable and god like status.
I don’t think this is elitism. Because these gatekeepers are becoming more and more marginalized. But they seem to be taking an entire culture down the drain with them.
@@hepphepps8356 Exactly, the treehouse is shrinking and so is the audience.
And this is why my friends have been turned away from “jazz jams” with the excuse of “You don’t listen to enough jazz, so you can’t play with us”.
> Jazz is the music language you study most, when not studying strict classical music.
Strict jazz. What a concept.
"During the last 30 years, jazz has become monopolized by the higher institutions of music education."
100% - the "academization" of jazz has really hurt it. It was best when musicians were trying to express themselves while also entertaining an audience - music that amazed you but also made you tap your feet. Then the academics took over and it became "whatever fancy concept you can come up with to win a grant," so the audience didn't matter any more, it got more conceptual, and the music suffered
Part of Herbie Hancocks greatness is his openess to all music and his courage to mix styles…
The problem with the crossover formula is that, while guys like Herbie or Stanley Jordan do it from an artistic and honest basis, there are also those formulaic 'Bossa Nova versions of mainstream hits', 'Swing/Big Band versions of mainstream hits', etc that only cross over to find an audience disregarding the jazz comunity for not being "profitable enough". I actually like guys like Amy Winehouse or Michael Bublé, and I sincerely think George Benson is one of the greatest artists of all time irrespective of the genres he is playing, but there are also those many hacks you can hear at Starbucks, for instance.
@alienígena There's a difference between honestly experimenting with music and elements one has genuine interest in and just doing a by-the-formula cash-in project like the Bossa'n Stones or Bossa'n Roses crap.
@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 I would like to include Les Paul in your list (George Benson, Amy Winehouse)
@@naokim.5035 Indeed.
Sure but watch the video of Herbie performing Bob Marley's 'One Love' with Sheryl Crow and Will i am at Obama's inaugural concert. What is he doing? But I guess we're not allowed to say to one of the living legends of jazz 'mate, perhaps those outside pentatonic extemporizations are not what's required seeing as it's a three chord reggae tune'.
I love this commentary. I was a rapper from my teenage years until age 26 when I decided I wanted to learn jazz piano. Long story, but I pretty much started from square one. I spent time taking lessons, practicing, and listening to insane hours worth of jazz. Before I ever really got into actually breaking into the jazz world I got hired for a neo-soul singer about 3 years into my learning. Once I started to attempt, the amount of discouragement and gatekeeping really threw me off and I had a moment when I almost gave up on jazz. With all of that, this is so refreshing to hear and luckily I met some people who had this same sentiment in the scene and have since helped me gain the insight and experience without constantly knocking me down.
I think another great point is you don't have to wait for permission to write and release music. I found myself having inner dialogue asking, "when am I good enough to write a record?" even though I'm lucky enough to play with some of the most sought after rhythm sections and horn players in the city. The time is whenever the artist feels the sincere creative urge. Again, I really appreciate this commentary. Thanks, Peter.
DAMN!!! This sounds like my story...but going to get my legacy. Can't and won't let them (whoever they are) steal my joy.
@@amotinyabongo5659 It's cool to know there are others who can relate. It seems like in the jazz world the vast majority of people who succeed started when they were like 2 months old haha. Keep at it fam!
We’ll said! Nothing like getting put down from fellow musical artists!
I agree with you Remy, when I realised I would wait years and years to get in touch with any jazz guru or who ever may come to ask me to join, I took the step to publishing first my music on UA-cam, then in Spotify and who knows what is expecting me next. My urge to express myself in music was too strong!! Thank you for sharing your experience
What are good examples of jazz artists of now? I can try: Kamai Washington, Emma Thackray, Angela Bat Dawid, Makaya McCraven, can someone continue naming great artsist of now?
The Jazz Police is gonna hate this one.
aka "Jazz Snobs".
I can hear the sirens already😸
jazz fans don't care what non-jazz lovers think.
That's a jazz police go to
I think you're right. As much as I was happy that there was a movie about jazz, I thought "Whiplash" fed into just what's wrong with jazz: the idea that it's serious business, not fun. When jazz was popular music, it was fun (or at least entertainment)! Yes, Christian McBride does a lot to bring back the fun spirit of the music - his concerts are really enjoyable, and people that aren't jazzophiles (?) love him.
Completely agree about Whiplash, also it highlighted a lot of other things wrong with jazz, the competitive nature and also sexism involved in the educational and professional music world. It touched a nerve with me, certainly. But luckily all the musicians I work with don't operate like that.
@@wendykirkland Yes, competitive as opposed to cooperative... not a great way to make music. And sexism in jazz remains much more than in other music genres.
@@armanddiaz4075 I do agree sexism is a big stigma of jazz, but the only genre that is more open than jazz is academic music ('classical'). Rock is open to women but it follows their own formulas, same as pop, R&B and hip-hop. At least jazz doesn't dictate what a female artist must look like or act like as much as those other genres.
@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 That's a really good point. I was thinking about all the women who are pop and rock stars, but yes, there's a formula.
@@wendykirkland where was the sexism in Whiplash?
Bird and others never forgave Dizzy for singing and dancing in front of his band - they thought he was clowning. Which, being artists, they were too good to do. Duke never thought of himself as an 'artist' until on tour in Britain, some writer called him one. At the Cotton Club, he was an entertainer, pure and simple. It was really the Bop scene that made guys think they were too good for their audience, and that shaped jazz for decades to come.
Duke and his band were special because their work could appeal to anybody. There was that versatility, where you could entertain and also offer material that could make people think and feel, if they were so inclined. I think their work is very open-minded and beautiful. The same is true of Count Basie and Erroll Garner and a few others from that era who weren't afraid of being too well-liked, which is an odd phobia to have, anyway.
@JonFrum well said.
This is an absolutely great point. Lionel Hampton took a lot of flack because wait for it.. he encouraged the audience to sing and clap along. Louie warned jazz musicians back in the day about their attitude. They looked down on him for playing pop tunes. A friend of mine was a great musician but his and other jazz musicians contempt for their audiences sometimes was startling. Eight people in a club on a Tuesday night and the musicians acted like they were doing them a favor. Got to lose the attitude. That's why when you mention someone like Louis Armstrong people still get big happy smiles on their faces. The other Giants of modern jazz? Not so much
Miles thought Bird was clowning later on too. Miles also didn't like how Dizzy smiled for his audience.
@@IzunaSlap Famously, Miles wouldn't even look at the audience, and would turn his back to them. And then had the nerve to wonder why Jimi Hendrix could attract an audience of 10k while he could count his own live audiences.
Oh Peter, thank you so much, you've expressed so eloquently what Ive felt for so long, hearing this from a jazz musician of your calibre has made me feel liberated! This exclusionary attitude is very prevalent in jazz but also found in other genres. When was about 15 I remember talking to some older friends about the Bob Dylan song Blowin in the Wind, I said that I actually preferred Stevie Wonders recording, I was shot down in flames and made to feel immature and stupid. Later on I read that Bob Dylan said that "If anyone deserves to be called a genius, its Stevie Wonder". Later on I was lucky to be a student on the first advanced Jazz course in Europe at the Leeds College of Music in the UK. I learned so much there but I did feel intimidated by other students about who I was allowed to like and not like (Pop, rock even classical definitely a no no). Sadly I found myself repeating their opinions to my students when I started teaching, later on I realised what I was doing and started saying what I really thought instead, now I feel vindicated! I subscribe to Open Studio, I love your lessons, so much to learn! Thank you!
Stevie Wonder is a great example, try telling the record fair black t-shirt brigade that Stevie is a genius!
This is a huge problem in Universities. Having first hand experience I have seen many young/ passionate individuals throw away everything they once loved about music in order gain their professors approval or to just pass the class. When a student doesn’t even know right from wrong, a professor can abuse his power to unbelievable extents from manipulating, to straight up mentally abusing students in their face. I left college because of this exact situation I had been put into with no one besides close friends to explain my issue to. It got so bad to the point where I dropped out mid semester, ultimately causing the university to not believe my story at all. At this moment in time I’m thousands of dollars in debt to a school and the man who mentally abused me behind closed doors. It’s appalling to see other students who may not understand their situation or feel as if they have nowhere else to go, suffer through something like that.
So because this happened to you, then it is definitely happening in every university everywhere. Got it.
The best thing about school is the teachers, conversely the worst thing the teachers.
Same happened to me and all my friends back in 1981 at a University in Arizona. We all dropped out of "Intro to Jazz Improvisation" Mid-Semester. I switched majors, and when that ultimately failed, joined the Navy. Watching "Whiplash" was like reliving a nightmare. Jazz right now would do good to take a page from what's happening with Bluegrass. Little Festivals with contests popping up all over the place. Plenty of ways to Jam informally, meet and even jam with the Stars. The Boot Camps teach young musicians what is really played, not just a bunch of Scales and Chords, and they do this with very little Theory. I attended a Jazz Camp at Manhattan School of Music right out of the Navy back in 1992. Absolutely little or no jamming with the professors. Most of the students left at night to go to a Club, so there was hardly any Jamm Sessions at all, even between students in the Three Weeks I was there. Nothing was ever organized by the School, and we were so split up by room assignments we never found each other to organize our own.
@@joshuabayerjazz it happens..
It's not a perfect system, by any means.
I’m so glad that someone with some credibility finally said what so many fans and musicians have been wanting to say…
I’m a fan and a musician. I used to love to go to jazz shows but it stopped being fun and the joy disappeared.
Sometimes I wish that jazz musicians would remember that this music came from humble beginnings and was made for dancers… it was music for the people… it was fun joyful expression with a beat you could dance to…
Also, jazz education is backwards…. Teachers tell students that they must master music before they can jam with the pros…. But in reality, improvisation IS the path to music mastery…
like learning to speak… we didn’t master grammar and spelling before we started “jamming” in English with the pros (our parents). Jamming with our parents and siblings was how we learned to speak … BEFORE learning to read and write…
Students of every other art form begin to create on their first day…. But jazz students are told they can’t improvise and jam with the pros until much later
Also, sick of the politically correct race hustling.
Ever notice the Mexican cooks making amazing Chinese food in restaurants?
Who cares if he’s Mexican as long as the food is good!
Here's a thought (that generally goes over like a lead balloon when I express it) that might be related to the topic at hand: at this point in the history of jazz, forced applause after solos is a negative aspect of the jazz culture. In classical music, the culture prohibits applauding after a single movement in a multi-movement piece. The idea being that the piece of music shouldn't be interrupted until the end. The narrative arc intended by composer is broken. In jazz, on the other hand, one MUST clap after every time someone blows over a certain number of choruses. I hate it for a couple reasons: 1) it celebrates the individual performer over Music, and introduces a subtle, competitive "cutting session" aspect into what should be a deeper artistic expression 2) It severely constricts the narrative arc of the music -- we have to have a climatic build/release/applause sequence in every fucking tune in a set. The insertion of applause becomes a compositional element in itself. A required, non-musical, compositional element. It's a serious limiting factor to the impact of jazz, and it promotes an unhealthy focus on the individual and off the music itself. Of course, I'm not saying people should filter out their genuine reactions in the moment -- whoops, applause bursts, words, etc that come unbidden from deep within us when we're moved by the music. That's the jazz church and I'm all for it. What I'm against is, the "OK, s/he's finished her/his 48 bars, now we must applaud" thing. Also, introducing band members (sometimes multiple times a set)? Jesus, we all know who they are. Again, classical musicians don't do this. I think by elevating the music above the players, we'll reach a place of less scene-driven bullshit. Just my $0.02.
you are SO right !
Actually, I think listening to music "inactively" is extremely helpful. I tell my students to listen to jazz while they're doing their homework - let that music seep into your subconscious. When we play music, we externalize the music. If you want the music to come out of you freely, it's gotta get into you freely.
Very interesting video, yet a somewhat mild take on the dogmatic attitudes of far too many jazz musicians. Over the decades I've encountered ridiculously uptight, dogmatic jazz players who have vehemently objected to recording with headphones on; vehemently objected to overdubbing, EQ-ing, and sound processing in the recording studio; vehemently insisted that a hi-hat cymbal should be no larger than 12"; displayed contempt for any guitarist who used a capo, as a capo is, "a cheater"; went nuts over the proposition of playing multiphonics, or non-tempered scales in free time; ranted with great disdain and contempt about the work of Cecil Taylor and Anthony Braxton, who apparently have only produced "self-indulgent jive-ass bullshit"; A certain trombone player I knew once went on a vast diatribe about "Musicians who don't read music haven't paid their dues, they're pussies, they 're not on the case, they can't deal with hard work." I reminded him that a good third of Duke Ellington's orchestra didn't read music. Duke's favorite drummer, Sam Woodyard, didn't read music. Buddy Rich didn't read music. Errol Garner didn't read music. Stephane Grappelli didn't read music.. (I could go on). It's a bit like trying to have a conversation with a dogmatic religious person--objective facts are lost on them. What's interesting about these people is that they all play conventional, codified jazz standards. None of them originate anything. Their whole approach to playing jazz is to look for the rules according to what the music is supposed to be. This is in stark contrast to something Wayne Shorter said not so long before he died: "The six years I was with Miles, we never talked about music. We never had a rehearsal. Jazz shouldn’t have any mandates. Jazz is not supposed to be something that’s required to sound like jazz. For me, the word ‘jazz’ means, ‘I dare you.’ The effort to break out of something is worth more than getting an 'A' in syncopation. This music, it’s dealing with the unexpected. No one really knows how to deal with the unexpected. How do you rehearse the unknown?” CHEERS Open Studio.
I tried having a conversation with some jazz musicians outside Ronnie Scotts while having a cigarette and I had been watching and listening to these guys who were playing in the upstairs section of the club and I simply complimented them on their playing and the trumpet player snarled at me huh and then pretty much got a similar type of response from the band leader saying in a dismissive way don't you know Ronnie Scotts is the most famous jazz venue in the world and I said I know I felt like saying when you graduate to playing in the main bar then you can get carried away with your own self importance (but glad I didn't)because if I did you can bet their heads would have swollen even more it was a shame because all the other musicians and people who were there to enjoy the atmosphere were easy going including the bar staff and door men/bouncers
once upon a time musicians learned their instrument, scales, arpeggios and chords and began to improvise with popular tunes that were composed with chord changes 'harmonic movement" and the general population sang along, danced, and tapped their feet, they loved it, then 'jazz' became a music that was "taught" in college, it became academic, it died, it became a closed system, the general population could not relate, it was very clear the love wasn't here to stay, not for a year, never again to this day.
I really enjoyed hearing Peter vent.
It was like listening to a good jazz solo.
He spoke his truth, and i could feel it.
Ok, ok...
Post modernist marxist talk . There is no such thing as "his truth". Truth is non malleable and non appropriable.
2+2 = 4 indifferent of your feelings. Truth can only be objective truth or not truth at all. This is why it is so precious.
@@CairosNaobum Only people who are incapable of tapping-in to their heart, soul, intuition, and feeling, rave about math and numbers equating to truth.
Like Monk said... "either you know or you don't".
@@bobbachelor5930 Is anger still a legitimate feeling? Cause I tap straight into that every time I hear this post-truth garbage…makes me wanna throw Scott Henderson sounds at peoples faces! 🤣
@@bobbachelor5930 you poor m0r0ns. You are losing this battle against reality. I'm so sorry this is happening to you (not). Get lost and good riddance. Garbáge.
Recently a friend musician told me about a recognised classic teacher she had in her teens that prohibited her to improvise, of course!, but even prohibited her to COMPOSE, because there has already been Mozart and Chopin and Beethoven... so it was pointesss. It's a miracle my friend still managed to didn't lose her love for music and got a career. Elitism is ignorance and cowardice too.
How much not only talent but love for music , and other fields, is lost forever because bad teachers.
Thank you so much Peter, Adam and Open Studio!
Someone who prohibits to compose should go to prison.
This is why Maynard Ferguson was so great. He played all kinds of pop stuff in the 70’s, fused Indian styles and instruments into his recordings, said he didn’t want only keep playing his charts from the 50’s. His music was super energetic, happy and current which was why he had such a big and young fan base.
And he did a cool move when he got a high note 🎵
He made mcarthur park make sense
My mother dated him a few times in the early 50's! Just found that out, like, 10 years ago. I could never stand the guys playing, honestly- but I'm a little more into him now.🤣
Maynard was beyond good at what he did. He caught heat for playing "non-Jazz" music. I never cared for Indian music, but I couldn't get enough when Maynard did it. For me, Maynard is a timeless master craftsman. I miss him.
@@danoloane as a jazz lover, i didn't like his play either.
Thank you for saying this. I’m a guitarist and I have been trying to find jazz guys to play with and learn from and it’s nearly impossible. It’s like I’m never good enough for any of them. They sidestep me and blow me off. I’m not the best guitarist but I’m alright and can play some jazz standards. It’s ridiculous that it’s become so difficult to just play with others who have the same interests.
Jazz should be about exploration instead of name dropping comparison. Skill level should be about sharing.
I have the same issue.
I was lucky enough to find gypsy jazzers to play with, guitar fits in better with that style than some others
Go to blues/funk/open mics. Drop in your jazz learnings. Folks will show-up who aren’t “ewww…you’re playing that voicing wrong”, etc. …and more into “let’s play, I like your feel/ sound.” You’ll find jazzers who aren’t square. Music has no limits, and is above egos and limited perspectives.
It is possible that your "time" was not together?
I don't play with those who can't keep time.
Nothing personal but it's just no fun.
this is an extension of all classical musical communities, not just jazz
Yep!
Peter thank you so much for this... Me being a pianist I also wondered about this too, and I listen to literally everything. Dr Lonnie Smith once said in an interview that all music is beautiful. Jazz anymore is a label that needs to be mended. And as you said there is multitude of musicians and producers around the world that need a listen because they are all GREAT.
I noticed all these characteristics of jazz community and jazz teaching already after a couple of months of trying to learn jazz. This is why I have given up on the idea. I may come back 😊
I think elite level players are a wonderful thing, but elitism is definately toxic. There are great Jazz players who don't want the label of Jazz associated with their music, as they will be attacked for being not good enough.
Jazz shares a problem with many topics that became part of university education. If you can study it officially, then you don´t belong to it, if you didn´t. I love every pop musician, that tries to web lush jazz chords into their productions. By the way, my teacher was Mal Waldron and i became a producer that produces Pop and Jazz and other genres. You´re channel is great. Thank you for that.
What are you talking about? If you're too dumb to learn Jazz don't blame "universities". Most Jazz greats didn't study it formally. They were just smart enough to learn it. It's not for everyone.
I agree, music, as a human creative activity, is constantly shapeshifting. Call it whatever you like between yourself if you like, but as soon as you try hard to define it for others, or create a "value base" to decide what's 'good' and fits in, and what doesn't fit, then it's dying.
And the interesting stuff is already happening somewhere else.
Its crazy how it works that way when your often studying culture and how people dealt with oppression, deprivation, ect.. and then some privileged people eat it.. its probably a bit different now.. haven't been around the college scene lately
@@bartbarnes9596 ok
Peter. I’ve been an Open Studio member for some time and have enjoyed your courses. It is so refreshing to hear a musician of your caliber speak in such a humble and grateful manner if you will. People like you make the rest of feel that there is a piece of the jazz world that we can cultivate for ourselves. Thank u again.
Thanks Arthur, means a LOT! 🙏🏼
We turned Jazz into a following instead of an art form.
I sometimes use the expression "the tyranny of cool". By that I'm trying to describe people who seriously limit their listening pleasure because they're scared to be thought "uncool". There is so much wonderful music out there and you only live once - explore explore explore! And forget what your peers / friends might think. Some people fall into this trap when they're quite young and never really develop beyond it.
I'm not going to name particular artists or bands, only to say that "cool but crap" has a long history!
I'm using this from now on. Thank you, internet user.
Elitism happens every time the subject is complex. It’s a way to hide ignorance if you’re “low” and the result of supplication if you’re “high”.
People do not want to reveal their ignorance so they use every defense mechanism possible to hide it. Ironically this keeps them ignorant.
I see the same thing in audio. People kind of decide for themselves how far they’ll go to learn. A few try to act like they know more than they do and that’s usually when they act poorly. The luminaries are mostly unreachable so it’s a field of crabs, a parliament of dedicated ones and a handful of “elites”.
Generally everyone earns their spot. Still, it’s a game for the loud. I think a lot of intelligent people just observe, maybe graciously ask questions and get on with their life. I mean, if you’ve got time to gate keep and brown nose the big dog, you probably don’t have time to do the work.
Jazz is a huge topic and everyone has an ego that wants acceptance. No way can some people let themselves be simple and ignorant. And what’s wrong with it? Babies are totally ignorant and totally happy. Maybe ignorance is bliss!
The director Orson Welles once limited when being told that a lot of these films were "Ahead of their time" responded "I wish I could be 'On Time' for once!"
You are 1000% dead on with this. Even today I get impressed looks when I play some chords... but then the shock and awe when I tell them (jazz players) that it's a Chris Brown song, their brain explodes. Ever since I went to music school my tastes and inspirations became *BROADER* and *MORE ECLECTIC* instead of more isolated and dogmatic.
I always felt the Young Lions period in the 80s further pushed the elitism to higher levels, to the detriment of the Jazz genre. There was always cross-pollination of Jazz with other genres, and it seems like artists like Jon Batiste, Robert Glasper, Thundercat, etc., have helped to encourage the overlapping of genres. Less Silo-ing is better.
You have touched on a sensitive topic with me. I love jazz music. But for the most part I hate jazz musicians due to their stuck up snobish attitude towards music.
They just don't get it. If non jazz music brings people joy then so be it, even if may not be my cup of tea.
This issue is nothing new. I have been disassociating myself as a jazz musician for some 40 years now. They can have their cult like status, I dont
't want any part of it. There now, I'm thru venting.
If you have been a jazz musician for 40 years, I imagine you understand the difference of what Ella Fitzgerald does vs what Beyonce does.....!?
@@Louis-ef4eb not much, they both sing songs
@@gatkillah2473 Really!? Are you for real? Apparently you don't have a clue! That's the problem...
there just expressing themselves through music
@@gatkillah2473 You express all your little heart desires. There are major differences in what Ella did, vs what Beyonce produces....
the problem is every kid comes out of jazz school sounding the same. no one has developed their own sound and they just regurgitate what has been done by the masters in the past.
Elitism stifles creativity. This will never change because creativity is all about viewing and approaching your medium differently than what has already been the established method.
As a teenager learning music, the thing that made me fall in love with jazz was how it always pushed the boundaries of music for its time. From post-ragtime into swing, big band, be-bop, hard-bop, avant-garde, and into fusion etc, jazz was pushing music and challenging musical status quo. I fell out of love with jazz when i started going to jazz shows and trying to play jazz and realized it's no longer pushing music towards the future. It's mostly rehashing jazz's past. 90% of jazz shows are people trying to emulate Trane and Davis, Evans, and Coleman, etc. But, jazz did that already. And i get it to some extent. That music was great. Those musicians were some of the greatest. Of course we want to play their songs and play like them. I love playing old funk, r&b, and motown songs on bass. But jazz as a concept seemed like it went from "always progress" to "jazz must be like what these dudes from the 50s and 60s did." I find way more musical boundary pushing in other genres these days, especially electronic music. That said, it's a rainy day in NYC so i'm gonna listen to Kind of Blue, because that will always be the soundtrack to rainy days in NYC.
As a pop musician with very rudimentary jazz skills but a deep appreciation for the craft this was a great talk. I play multiple times a week with serious jazz musicians down here in ATL in corporate bands or otherwise. I’ve felt the feelings of hate keeping you’re describing but to be honest very rarely, almost never, was it something tangible something anyone said to me or made me feel. Most jazz musicians are just incredible musicians I have a lot of respect for who sound great across a lot of genres. Great talk looking forward to improving my meager skills on your channel!
Gatekeeping* Freudian slip!
You're a breath of fresh air and have articulated publicly what I've felt for years. I love jazz but loath the cult of the 'jazz scene'. It's very destructive. A very courageous video! I've played with some name people in my time and the. nicest jazz musicians amongst them with were the ones who also worked in the studios, did pop records, films, like Randy Brecker and Ernie Watts etc, as I did. for much of my career. Then there was another group who were insufferable- Bebop nazis I believe was the term used to describe them in those days. I've left it behind now and write for orchestras now - and have to agree with you, classical musicians are far more open than jazz musicians. A shame but when I was growing up, I always regarded jazz as the hippest most liberating music on earth. I didn't realise it was as free as the iron curtain.
Great point. As a guitar player, when I started long ago (I'm 71), the joke was always "how do you get a guitar player to shut up? - put sheet music in front of him". So later after I learned to read, the next disdain was "real players don't read music, they only learn from records. Don't show up at the jam session with a Real Book". Meanwhile, the commercial world (think MTV), changed the paradigm from what the music sounded like to what the artists look like. And then, music abandoned the cafes and was only in stadiums where promoters could make big money. And you better be young and beautiful. What's wrong is that we've disinvited everyone so that no one except a handful of superheroes are left. My sense is that its better in Europe and Asia.
Just because jazz isn't being played at the Super Bowl doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The genre and community around it are alive and well, as the existence of Open Studio shows.
@@future62 How many jazz clubs are in your neighborhood?
It's not really much better in europe.
@@jimkangas4176 and how much jazz is played outside of clubs? or even _can_ be? even makes any _sense_ outside a small room with small drinks and a large cover?
The problem is the whole concept of specialization as applied to what we call “the arts.” In many traditional cultures “the arts” were natural expressions of the rhythms and textures of life. With empires we got specialists who provided commodities.
Someone said in one such traditional culture (Borneo?), “we don’t have ‘art.’ We just like to do everything well.”
As a jazz drummer I stopped performing because I find most of the music to be what I call a museum pieces. Where it was once an evolving community and a language, it has now mostly become a cliche of itself. I don’t think it would be too far-fetched to say that guys like Thelonious Monk wouldn’t even be considered if he were to apply to university today. Think about that.
You are spot on with this. And it has been going on for decades, to the detriment of the music. I am old enough to remember when Branford Marsalis -- whose credentials as jazz royalty should be unquestioned -- got tons of flak for playing in a band with Sting. Instead of giving Sting credit for digging into his jazz roots and getting some legit players to advance his music, it was "Branford sold out." Ridiculous. Remember that when jazz music started, the musicians were "jazzing up" the popular songs of the day. Miles did this throughout his career and also took flak for it -- but hey, he sold a lot of records and his covers of "Human Nature" and "Time After Time" were cool and helped bring a new generation in to appreciate "The Birth of the Cool" and "Tune Up." Herbie Hancock and a lot of great jazz musicians still do this. And this does happen in other genres also. Bob Dylan got booed mercilessly by folk music fans when he plugged in his guitar and played with a rock band.
I went in for some jazz lessons last year and everyone else there was either using a Telecaster or an Archtop and they were all using amps, either classical or faux-classical, with not a pedal between them. They were all at the first class asking how to get the 'jazz sound' so they all their tone dialed low etc, just carbon copies of each other. And I was there with a Schecter guitar made for metal with modern Fishman pick-ups and a Quad Cortex connected to a Presonus monitor speaker and not even caring to get a sound like everyone else, using frowned upon FX with the philosophy that jazz is in how you play not something living in the equipment or in a preset. It felt punk. XD
as a reedman, we don't have pedals and pickups, but our allegiance to gear means just as much. for instance: _never_ play a Buescher saxophone. i don't care if you can kick nine kinds of ass on your Buescher - _no serious cat played them._ well, except Sonny Rollins, who used one for awhile in the '60s. but you need to be at least as good as him to play one yourself. and you ain't. so don't mess with 'em.
jazz was the punk of it's time...on the one hand it is weird to make it into a very formal precise copy of a bygone time, but if people want that, they aren't wrong
You hit the nail on the head. During high school in the 1980s, I enjoyed jazz band because it allowed me a chance to create stuff on the piano. Even though I was classically trained, I enjoyed rock music, especially progressive rock, and always wondered why my piano professor (I studied with Dr. David Rostkoski of Eastern Washington University from the 9th grade through the end of college) and other classically trained music teachers didn't like rock music. When I got to college, I discovered that the elitism amongst many of the older professors was also towards anything tonal written by 20th-century composers - the same elitism you describe by jazz musicians. When one studies the history of jazz, it followed that of classical music very closely, even to the point of the atonal music written by Eric Dolphy.
While at EWU, I played trumpet in band and orchestra and piano in jazz band for only my sophomore year. During my junior year at EWU, we got a new jazz instructor who was a very skilled pianist. I knew that I hadn't comped properly the previous year when playing for the university jazz band and I asked him for some private lessons. He said, "No." No reasons, just a firm no. This was the beginning of the elitism that I was beginning to discover in the jazz community. Years later, when I would take my students to jazz festivals, I would encounter overly critical judges when it came to the rhythm section - many who had just begun playing their instrument that year. I also began noticing the hypocrisy on the sheet music. In concert band, student are taught to read what is on the printed page; yet, in jazz band, eighth notes aren't slurred, tied notes over the beat aren't written with accents - the students are "supposed to know," or infer, how to play what is written. Is it surprising that jazz is now the least purchased music today?
The biggest problem with the jazz scene is the "Real Book Mentality". Everyone has 2000+ songs at their disposal. They are playing tunes they have not studied and that are poorly documented in the Real Books with changes/melody that can be so bad the mood and context of tune has been destroyed. I stopped using the Real Books in my own bands years ago. My band book only has about 90 tunes in it. But these are my favorite tunes and I have done a deep dive into every tune. 15 are originals. I have listened to several versions of every tune and transcribed intros/outros, changes and melody variations to get a version of the song that I feel is most accurate captures it best. Every song has been re-charted using music notation software. I use a setlist that will cover a wide range of jazz and I send it out ahead of time to all the players in the group. I talk briefly on the mic between songs to smooth out the transition time between songs to get the listeners engaged. I try my best to look like I'm having fun (because I am!) when I'm on stage. There's a lot jazz musician can learn from pop musicians. If you do it write people won't say stuff like "All jazz sounds the same." If you do it right they will say how much they love your music. I do play unorganized pickup gigs that use the "Real Book Mentality". It is what it is. And entertaining, it is not.
Dallas Fort Worth just lost its only Jazz radio station: College community Jazz station KNTU. It’s been the station here for over 40 years , and poof. Gone. Their listenership was way down and sponsors dropped out. Not sure if it was due to “elitism” but Dallas Fort Worth is a huge market, and this was the only jazz station we had, so I’m certainly suspect. And North Texas University where the station was based is one of the top music programs in the country.
About 30 years ago, in city of Gdańsk and nearby Bydgoszcz, young people decided to mix jazz language with punk rock ethnos, and to emphasize difference from elitist mainstream jazz, they called it jass. And they made really big impact on music of that region. Check out group like "Miłość" who started that gengre.
Metal is currently suffering from the same fatigued elitism. Everything sounds the same and this ridiculous emphasis on unrealistic technical showcasing is just making it so dull, predictable and uninspired. Its taken all personality and style out of it. Theres no room for different levels of artistry. Especially when it comes to the production. If it doesnt sound like hard hitting samples, this generation cant comprehend or appreciate it.
I remember a young jazz musician saying in an interview (I'll have to look it up), that jazz culture has this kind of paradox where you have to respect and internalize the giants that came before you in order to build on what they've laid down. But it's also important for each new generation to actually feel free to reject and even "disrespect" their sound, because you have to do that in order to make a new sound. And each generation almost has a duty to try to make a new sound to keep this art form alive and vital. And he thought that showing too much deference to the past giants was actually preventing the art form from moving forward.
I was really inspired by his rant because it made me feel empowered to try to make my own sound in the jazz world, but also even to study the giants. It's a funny process. You really need to internalize the giants to even know how to properly disrespect them, but that disrespect is actually even a kind of deeper respect for them by carrying the torch they got so far with even further down the road. It's a disrespect on the surface that taps into a deeper love.
I'll really try to find that interview and I'll edit it in here if I do because I think it's a good follow-up to this video.
Edit: I can't find it at all. I found this Matthew Shipp interview which is channeling that same kind of energy esp. in Parts 3 & 4, but he doesn't distill it like that video interview I saw. www.furious.com/perfect/matthewshipp.html
Very inspiring words! Was it maybe from a patrick bartley interview? I remember him saying something similiar.
@@aronhollinger2818 I like that cat's podcast a lot, but the one I'm thinking about was from years ago. But you're right, he has that energy too. I think a lot of jazz musicians probably do.
what's wrong with jazz is no one listens to jazz any more - children's music sells more - jazz died with Miles - it's stuck in the 50's and no new talent can survive let alone break through
I'm a jazz musician in NYC, but I also play a lot of country and honkytonk music. I can safely say that there are very few jazz musicians who can hang on a country session in Nashville. At the end of the day, getting inside a specific style is an art. Jazz musicians can't just play any other style, off the cuff, without a serious amount of work and study. I was in a country band in NY for a while and it was extremely difficult to find a competent bass player.
Well Said.
"Academic Jazz" is what I've been calling it, like kids who followed music from childhood to adulthood, went to an acclaimed music school, often but not always from privileged backgrounds. Incredible talent and objectively good musicians in every way, but the music itself is devoid of soul and seems to be made to impress peers. I think there's resentment in the community towards far less talented musicians who exceed them in success, which leads to a pathology of thinking people have poor taste in music, "people just don't get how good I am." It has the potential to be a very self-serving narcissistic genre with the improvisation component, the audience too often seems to be a second thought.
Just stumbled onto your channel. You definitely said what I've been feeling for years, and why I ultimately decided to not pursue the jazz path. Don't misunderstand me, I LOVE Miles, Herbie, Monk, Ellington, Stan Kenton, Metheny, Scofield and Holdsworth as much as anybody. I play guitar and bass, plowing my own quirky little furrow with a rock/funk hybrid that utilizes elements of jazz. I did take a plunge into the jazz world for a while as a bassist. I'm grateful for how it expanded my vocabulary, but ultimately got turned off by the rigidity and elitism I encountered (really hated the prejudice against playing jazz on an electric bass).
Real artistry can happen in so many types of music and I'm so glad you convey that in your commentary. Thank you for your presence and conviction!
appreciate you sharing your story and kind words 🙏🏼
I have felt this way for years. I've been playing music for more than 50 years. I don't interact with jazz musicians because of their snobbish, elitism. The people they idolize always pushed the envelope. But, they won't, preferring to stay stuck. They cannot tell me what to think, what to say, who to say it about, or what to think. I saw the video you reference. It was great. Forget them. If they aren't paying you or booking you, forget them. Even if they are, forget them. Jazz is great. It is fluid, not static. Snobbish jazz musicians not so much. And, they are partially responsible for the decline of the music in our country. Uuuggghhhh!
Thanks for talking about these issues! I work mainly as a session and tour musician - but I had the experience being excluded when I played a tour with a symphony orchestra, I certainly feel elitism among jazz musicians, in the studio, more pop-oriented world I know the feeling being singled out because "what, you don't like artist .... and .... ?" (usually some 70s rock stuff). Musicians seem to organise themselves in castes - here in Hamburg the classical guys, the jazz guys, the musical guys, the pub/party guys, and us session players - and we don't seem to mix and hence draw borders. That always surprised me and seems so unnecessary. It's all music. So again - thanks for getting this ball rolling and cheers from Hamburg!
eclecticism is the way of the post-modern age...except in jazz, the last stand of the modernists. mind you, they don't know what modernism _is,_ they just unthinkingly embody it.
Music - select a genre and go die with it. It is a seething mass of equally dismissive subcultures, and one is not allowed to actually like music, but serve the identarian sub-culture. They are not called "Cross Over Albums" for nothing. So like Hollywood where there are 3 controlling subcultures that you must belong to one in order to survive, the Scientologists, the Marijuana smokers, and the Sexually confused. Take your pick or leave town.
the first 4 seconds... When Peter looks at you like that and says "Whats up" like that... you know hes got something 'Real' fo yo ass.
I feel that you are 100% correct! Music is Music and it does what it does. Often when you change the sound and rhythm alone you change the Genre.
Can't believe someone would get salty over you not knowing that artist exactly or mispronouncing their name. Some people need a lesson in humility.
brother, you are on point. My sentiments exactly. Many classical musicians are incredibly wide ranging in their musical tastes and interests, and this is refreshing. Lotta country artists too listen all sort of music a lot of jazz.
They have that luxury; jazz doesn't threaten their genres. As things are currently understood, all other genres threaten jazz.
The best comeback to jazz elitism is to ask how much money did you make last month. Not talking smooth jazz.
Many of the jazz musicians I know are pretty chill and good natured.
So true! you cannot be creative if you are full of prejudgements of any musical genre. jazz is discipline in the creative process.
Beautiful words
wait...isn't prejudging a kind of discipline?
Truth is that the guys who started this ball rolling couldn’t have been less elitist and more eclectic. Back in the world of turn of the century New Orleans, emerging African American musicians trying to supplement their income in the nightlife world grabbed everything around them that was available: white music teachers, instruments that today are not really standard in jazz but might’ve been hanging around in corners in schools’ music classrooms, pop tunes, folk tunes, music hall throwaway stuff, scraps of harmony from the classic repertoire, anything and everything! 😂 Beyoncé by contrast is half way there, jazz wise (or the scope-limited thing we call jazz nowadays)!
OMG, people can be so petty! Not you, Peter; so appreciate you doing this program. Good music = connects and moves people. Labels do a disservice and keeps you in your head when the heart is where it's at.
DITTO!
I’m nearly 60 and would consider myself fortunate. I had a strictly, “band stand” education. I worked with nothing but music much older club date musicians who knew all of the actual standards. At the same time, I also loved music of my grand parents, patents, and my era. What I have seen for the last 25 years are people being taught by people with upper level degrees who have 30 songs memorized that no one wants to hear, teaching their students the same thing. I have played every type of music in a rhythm section. No one will pay big money to hear me play a screaming solo, but, if someone asks for, “Giant Steps”, I can make it believable enough, but, I can also play everything from traditional jazz to now. Guys like Oscar Peterson, Clark Terry, Keith Jarrett, Tatum, Getz….and SO many more from that era were “tunesmiths”. That’s where I see the big failure. It has killed decent paying club date work over the years. They play the wrong tunes, they don’t play the room, and then get mad at their audience for not loving what they’re doing. I’ve been around plenty of college players just in the last few years. It is beneath them to play Satin Doll or Yesterday( Beatles) but the real problem is they don’t know what to do with it. It isn’t their fault. My career was unceremoniously cut short from Disney in early 2020. I played piano in the rhythm section of the Grand Floridian Society Orchestra.
Some of the most requested tunes, and by younger people, were 1950s early 60s era Frank Sinatra tunes. Here is a story on that elitism. When I was 25 I was on a big band gig. I was the youngest guy in the band by 15 years. Well, a young hot shot about my age moved to town who who just graduated from an elite school in Texas. He vibed me the entire first set. We are playing a commercial background gig so nobody’s playing anything crazy except him. Anyhow, we come out for the second set, and someone wants happy birthday. The singer usually sings it in F. The leader was a cool guy, and he knew this guy had been vibing me so I looked over as to hint to make him play along with this. Well, instead of playing C7 as the set up, I played B7 as the singer didn’t know or care. This guy proceeded to step all over his ______, and The whole band knew what I had done, and so did he. He apologized and we were fine. Well, that’s my long, bloated story. I like this video and have enjoyed reading all the other posts.
Elitism and dogma block ingenuity. All of the great leaps in jazz started with breaking the socially accepted and expected “rules”
jazz is the spirit of innovation and improvisation. it cannot be contained. that spirit is inclusive, and draws everything towards itself, whether you like it or not. like right now, "purists" are hating on DOMi and JD Beck, and say they're not jazz. but jazz can never sit still or in one place. it HAS to move on. like, how do you define Brad Mehldau now? how do you define or categorise his current work? is it purely jazz in the traditional sense? i don't think so, but it IS still jazz. just like DOMi and JD Beck.
i think the problem is with both the practitioners AND the fandom. i've had arguments with "elitist" fans, and what about Wynton Marsalis? BUT the majority of musicians, i truly believe, are not purists or traditionalists. i would say every jazz musician i've met and talked with all my years as a journalist were very cool people who love, and are open to, all good music and don't pigeonhole anything.
but one thing i would say about jazz music - it's not lazy music.
"it's not lazy music" 💯!
Glad you made a video on this. Personally, I was really beginning to become uninterested in jazz with the "unwritten rules" you must follow as a jazz musician. Luckily, I heard Branford Marsalis' quartet live and it changed my life. I've seen some great musicians, but I've never seen musicians like that being able to command a room's attention with their playing and the absolute energy that filled the room was insane. I started listening to interviews of Branford, and my approach changed where I realized all these "unwritten rules" that need to be followed don't matter at all. Now I'm actually enjoying practicing more and I have more fun than ever before listening and playing the music I like.
And Branford is a great case in point here, too: who did he play with for a number of years in the late 80s, along with Kenny Kirkland? It wasn't in the "jazz" category, but there's nothing wrong with playing with the former lead singer of The Police. Bonus: Branford's love of opera, which has *clearly* influenced his playing and compositions.
I think that, like classical music, jazz has to be popularized more and more by the media and by musicians in order to bring the style more and more to the majority of people, always. Although the mainstream media is concerned with disclosing only the most fashionable songs of the moment, this is also complicated and needs to be reviewed.
Jazz has become academic- not too much grit and experiment yourselves
There are all sorts of music snobs. I've found that classical musicians can very well be elitist as well. And rock, pop and R&B musicians don't have to be elitist because they're popular. Other music isn't a threat to them.
I'm concerned with this as well, especially as an outsider myself. I draw from the jazz medium, but I love to go outside and draw from all genres and doing crazy art alongisde everything. I want jazz to be fun and accessible to everyone
"fun and accessible to everyone" 💯🙏🏼
@@pianopeter Who does "everyone" mean? People raised on TV watching? What is "non-elitist" in our USA? The answer is: US mass media TV (movies, pop music, comics). Jazz music is an intergenerational global conservatory composition and performing art form. Anyone who "doesn't like" that can watch TV instead. Their "likes" simply don't matter. Mass media entertainment is "popular" but then rapidly forgotten. The business model for mass media entertainment is streams of rapidly forgotten novelties. Jazz and classical music are not part of that business model. Jazz and classical music are for remembering over many generations. This is how things are. Nothing will change that. In any case, "jazz" is not up to Americans anymore.
@@scottmcloughlin4371 "Accessible to everyone" doesn't mean it IS for everyone, just that it's ACCESIBLE to everyone. The elitism I spoke of is when we anoint (or allow) a select group to decide who gets access. Gatekeepers, folks that try to say what you should or shouldn't like...what's good and what's bad.
@@pianopeter I had two female friends from Harvard and Yale who worked in the pop music business. Pop music garbage is POPULARIZED. It's not "popular" (an adjective). It's POPULARIZED (a verb). Despite fake reality shows on TV, broadcast mass media music is not a "talent contest" at all. Fake "stars" are engineered. The folksy myths are created by writers like my idiotic friends from college. What WHO are you referring to? Listeners? Or performers? Jazz is not popular in the USA. Everyone has opinions on what they "like" and "don't like." Why do you care so much? What utopia do you possibly imagine?
Peter, thanks for this very important video. You've said a mouthful. I'll admit that I'm very particular about what I listen to, as most people are. I'm 67 and grew up on Led Zeppelin, The Allman Bros, and Jimi Hendrix. I love jazz, especially small groups - duos, trios, etc. I play guitar and tend to lean towards Art Blakey, Horace Silver, Wayne Shorter, Wes Montgomery, Pat Martino, George Benson, Jimmy Smith, Don Patterson, Stanley Turrentine, Lee Morgan, Hank Mobley, Diana Krall, Jobim, Eliane Elias and more. I am fortunate to play gigs. I'm not at jazz club level, but do get to play a lot of Real Book gigs at bars, restaurants, country clubs, art galleries, corporate events, private parties, etc. I am background music, LOL!
Having said that, I don't tend to listen to Beyonce, because I'd rather spend my time listening to classic jazz(call me a snob😎). But, very happy to hear when current artists are doing something that is interesting, especially using dominant 7#9 chords and more. So keep doing what you're doing at open studio. I love it.
To point out how bad the jazz eletist problem is, I have friends who don't want to play Girl From Ipanema on a gig, because it's too popular, too cliche. I know that I rarely play in front of a jazz audience and it may be one of the few tunes that is recognized. If it's my gig, we're playing it, haha. Thanks again!!!!⁰
Totally agree. Thanks for doing this and pushing things in the right direction. Jazz is better for your efforts. Love You'll Hear It and Open Studio Jazz.
thx Rick 🙏🏼
I’ve been listening to jazz since the 1950s. I don’t think nothing is wrong with jazz. Either you can play it or you can’t. No in between
It bums me out that people watched this video and are _still_ gatekeeping and clinging to the exact elitism Peter is speaking about in the comments
Maybe jazz just attracts people lacking in self awareness
For sure Beyoncé as an artist. John Coltrane is too. An artist is a person engaged in an activity related to creating art, practicing the arts, or demonstrating an art. The common usage in both everyday speech and academic discourse refers to a practitioner in the visual arts only. However, the term is also often used in the entertainment business, especially in a business context, for musicians and other performers.
BERKLEE and other college and high school jazz programs are a part of the problem.
See the video jazz elder Gary Bartz made like 15 years ago titled: Does Jazz Education Have It Backwards?
Part of the elitism I think must start there and play a large part in creating it along the way. I have read about this more and more in recent years the so called jazz schools turn out very competent but samey players with little differences, little of their own sound, more chops less feel, less soul. Since they all learn via the same academic dogmatic rules by the same teachers year after yea, in a competitive environment, leading to who can outplay and outcompose who over the hardest changes, most complex dissonant abstractions, etc.
Then after graduating they take all that into their respective scenes (most often nyc which is high competitive and just reinforces that, but even smaller cities usually have little groups of berklee grads that naturally form and come to dominate/gatekeep the local scene and most gigs. And since they paid for such degree (more likely their rich parents) those who could afford jazz school tend to be of a certain demographic (white upper middle class most likely) which reinforces the sameness and lack of diversity of thought, sound, style, playing, etc.
Just saw this from jazz bassist Anthony Tidd:
"University education, with its regimented methodology, standardized curriculums, statistics, rules, entrance requirements, privilege, certification, and, of course, associated tuition costs, quite literally changed the face of jazz"
i love this discussion. i’m commenting as i pause the video to come and finish it later.
i hate the jazz museums like lincoln cemetery (i decided auto-correct was correct in correcting my typo) and SF Jazz that get erected. they are dead and soulless places. “Jazz” should be played more in “pop” rooms.
in the span of ~1 year i saw Kamasi 3x. The Warfield SF, the Independent SF and SF Jazz.
the SF Jazz show was dead and occupied by a bunch of 70 year old “members” who are Chet Baker and Bill Evans fans and just had no interest in what Kamasi was putting down. they were literally walking out.
the warfield and independent shows were 2 of my favorite concert experiences ever.
"Why are we not celebrating Jonathan Batiste?" Because we're damn idiots. He is such a fantastic talent.
Agreed also that Rick Beato has done a great job of exposing jazz to a wider audience. He's a model of how to do this--a great ambassador of jazz for a wider audience--in part because of just how catholic his musical tastes are.
I think a lot of this comes down from the old split between Bebop and (what got called at the time) Rhythm & Blues. These were, after all, players who all came from the same late swing jazz world, and who were responding, in different ways, to the massive cultural & economic shake up of WWII. The difference is that some of them took the music in a direction that emphasized music's role as a kind of self-conscious art (say, Charlie Parker), and others who took it in a direction of preserving its role as the accompaniment for dancing & good times (say, Louis Jordan). They were *both* being true to the tradition, just in different ways.
As it happens, the latter fork in that road led to Rock and Roll (really just R&B rebranded, but taken up by white musicians, who capitalized on it in ways its African-American inventors of it never could, reaching young mass audiences of all races), and thereby rose to great heights on the wings of massive cross-over acceptance, whereas the latter became, with occasional semi--popular breakthroughs, a music for a more limited (albeit very intense) and often self-consciously counter-cultural audience. Another way to say this is that the white audience for black music split into "high" and "low" segments.
It would be cool if we could all recall that these musics have a common root. That Chuck Berry played at the Newport Jazz Festival alongside Louis Armstrong; that Charlie Parker recorded "mambo" and pre-rock tunes; that some first-rate blues tenor players had huge Rock n Roll hits in the 50s; that Big Joe Turner and Art Tatum made records together FFS; that Stevie Wonder & EW&F & Chic (yes Chic!) brought jazz harmonies to mass publics; that (as brother Roy put it) the Jazz guys were the fathers of the Funk guys who were the fathers of the Hip-Hop guys; that a lot of the best "gamer" music even today is in spirit as much "jazz" as anything that was being penned in the 1950s & 60s.
I yield to no one in my love of the classic "hard bop" era. That is & will always be my heart's home base--the music that opened my ears. But remember: that whole era was based on the idea that bebop had gotten too exclusive, too technical for its own good & it's own sake, etc., and that it was criticized *at the time* for its 'simplicity' and 'pandering' to the audience's preference for straightforward blues tunes. Like, Horace Silver & Art Blakey were the original "sell outs"--which should tell you all need to know about how seriously to take that kind of crap.
And, yeah, anybody who dogmatically rejects the music Steely Dan, or The Police, or Diana Krall, or later Nat Cole, or Beyonce (WTF?) because it's "not jazz" needs to shut their damn mouth.
This is the great Wynton vs Herbie debate.
We owe Wynton a debt of gratitude for getting jazz recognized as an important cultural artifact like European Classical and this opened the door to the music education that created tons of great artists who would have never been as informed had these jazz education programs not existed, but Herbie is closer to Miles in terms of always being a visionary, pushing forward, blowing away boundaries and considering any preservation effort as a dead museum piece.
Truth is the Tao of BOTH views united
and definitely many jazz players have become far too legalistic & dogmatic, which makes hardcore players NOT want to call their heavily jazz influenced music "jazz" in order to avoid all the judgmental genre nazis... with a "jazz? oh NO, this is a jam band" /sidestep
Elitism sucks and when it's applied to music it beces damned right obnoxious
The same is for classical music. Coming from a classical background, I think it’s worst than jazz in terms of classical music or nothing
I think that what you're saying is spot on! I also feel that many jazz players are rewarded because of their regurgitatining lines and technical licks from yesteryear! Creativity and Individuality is gone! I have always thought the the word jazz means exploring sounds and trying to develop ones own style! Yes! We all have our influnces! And there are some pretty amazing musicians! Keith Jarrett, Ornette, Howlin' Wolf and Jan Garbarek are some of the first thoughts that come to my mind! They are so unique and individual in their music! There are so many more too! But that has already been done! So can the music of jazz please move on! Or maybe the music of jazz can't move on!
Jazz music can, and will, move on - we (jazz community) just needs to get out the way and give it sunlight.
no i think its ok to be a traditionlist
@@bill3837 Then don't call it jazz! Call it lhistory of be bop and dixieland music! And have fun replicating the music!
It’s like asking “what’s wrong with the self immolation community “
As soon as jazz became a part of academia, it was over
The culture of the foundational black
Americans that created this music has been stripped from it. Rather than jazz being learned from the musicians that created it and the practical application in which a certain skill should be used most jazz is taught in schools or on UA-cam. Miles, Mingus, Roach and many others are on record saying that they hate the term jazz because it forces an ideology of what “jazz” is supposed to be. All of the greats inherently understood that “jazz” is one piece of an interconnected musical lineage created by foundation black Americans, and that you can’t have one style of music without the other. All of the greats listened to R&B, gospel ,Blues etc and all of these styles are in there music. The problem with jazz right now is that the culture has been stripped from the music, the spirit has been ripped from the music, and the ideologies that made the music great from the start and now looked down upon when applied to a modern context. If you want to fix jazz then return it to the culture and understand the roots of the music that made it special in the first place.
Thanks for playing this music, teaching this music, living this music, being this music. Thanks Peter.
wow, appreciate that - you're absolutely welcome 🙏🏼
The death of the actual music business was another torpedo into Jazz's side. By the 80's-90's, Jazz (in all its forms) was steadily creeping farther into our mainstream. As record sales have gone away, jazz itself has become owned by the institutions and snobs. Both were always there and were significant, as a cursory look at any old Downbeat magazine will confirm, but the market being a dominant influence is all but gone.
Music is Music. If one thing comes that you don´t like, then tune it out, never listen to it-that is one way. But when I hear something I don´t like, I check it out because maybe I, as a player, am lacking the knowledge to hear it and should listen to more of it. A lot of times it opens up for me and makes me a better player.
The culture in general is in a severely diseased state right now. Not a music thing in particular.
The closed shop kills the joy no matter what the art form.
That's a real dilemma. A vital part of jazz is craft, and that's _not_ about joy. It's about our debt to the music: falling short, over and over, until somehow you don't.
@@RatPfink66 Yes thats true as a musician myself I get that completely as I barely scratch the surface of the technicality of Jazz.
No one is stopping the dumbed down masses from making their own jazz. However your approach is we must dumb down the current jazz scene to make it accessable to the the dumbed down masses. Let them make their own dumbed down jazz and play it in their own dumbed down clubs, no one is stopping them.
I saw a beautiful jazz show tonight. Everything about it was good. When this happens to you, you feel lucky to be alive and fortunate to experience deep creativity.
💯
Liked when you said the word "Jazz" sucks. If you remember, Miles Davis hated that name. As many greats have said, "There are two types of music. Good or bad" and even that is subjective! I agree with everything you said about the state of jazz today. This music should never be considered an art form frozen in the past. Jazz is very much a living, breathing, organism that represents the present moment. The idea of improvising this music where we create instant melodies on the spot that may never be repeated the next time you play that song, is simply incredible and very much in the moment period!.
I believe that jazz music can touch the mainstream as witnessed by the younger generation. It has to touch and resonate with the public no matter how or where. Jazz is a music that can grow and expand traversing various styles and influences. Let's stop trying to protect it. Instead let us all expand it and promote it to the general public by educating them and giving the audience an opportunity to hear this music and participate.
Thanks for taking the time to read my comment. Perry Pansieri, fiunder of PNP JAZZ Records.
I'm always trying to convince people to listen to jazz. Especially when they tell me, oh it's too complicated. But there are so many styles. I tell them start with old-time singers/players and then try Clifford Brown, Bill Evans, Chick Corea...you will familiarize with the sound. I'm also into neo soul/gospel, they're i influencing the way I play. But I also listen to Earl Hines, Bud Powell, Sarah Vaughan. And yes, Diana Krall. Always broaden your horizons! Thanks, Peter!
just avoid the pre-swing and swing eras. it's a rabbit hole that will entrap you for life.
Steeped in the tradition, not stuck.
That’s a beautiful thing you just said sir
14:10 "he's steeped in the tradition, not stuck in it" - yea, imma steal that.
There's nothing wrong with the music, but the way the peoble and fans discus it and giving the musicians and their music points. In classic music you have to follow a certain line to be educated, whereafter you might go for a place in an orchestra or you might be that number 1 of several thousen who is going to make it as a soloist. Both can count themselves as lucky. It's difficult enough to get an apointment with an orchestra and practically impossible to become a soloist. In jazz all musicians have to be soloist and that's the point. There are simply not enough bigbands for the musicians to get a living from it. And even there they have to regards themselves as soloists . In dayly life, you will be regarded as a great musician if you play in a symfoniorchestra. In the jazzworld you have to be a soloist, to be regarded as a good musician.
Was it Nick Payton who said nothing ruins BAM like "Jazz Heads?"
I am a jazz Clarinetist trying to break into the jazz scene, and I have absolutely no idea how to do it.
I put up a couple videos on my channel, but I don't know how to get any attention for them.
I've been trying to sit in on gigs advertized as jazz, but when I get there they're playing hip hop and funk.
And then when I did finally find a jazz gig, the saxophone player leading it wouldn't let me sit in with them.
And then as I was leaving, I heard him talking to a friend he didn't know was in the audience saying that he would have let him sit in and play if he had known he was there.
I spent the last 11 years practicing as much as I could so I could play great music for people.
But I'm definitely having trouble getting in the scene and getting work.
And I think your videos very accurate. Seems to me like a lot of established jazz musicians have no interest in helping the younger generation to get in and play and leave their mark.
Do you have any advice for someone like me?
I appreciate the content. Thank you
I just checked out your channel and you sound great! You got some killer chops.
I had the same problem and if i could give you any advice, i would say you have to put yourself on. Don't wait for other people to say yes or to give you an opportunity. Just do it yourself.
Find local players whose playing you like and start your own group. Contact every single local bar, restaurant, coffee shop, art gallery, hotel etc that you can and sell yourself. Tell them they can advertise having a "jazz night" which will get them more customers. Really sell them on how "classy" it is and how much more booze they'll sell if it's a venue that sells alcohol or how much more $$$ they'll make (which is all they care about anyway) Negotiate a fair price and split the pay between you and your band equally. Musicians all over the world are used to getting ripped off..something as small as giving someone an extra $10 so you both make the same amount of money can form lifelong loyalty/bonds.
If it's difficult to find people to start a group with, you might have to pay musicians out of pocket at first..sometimes you'll make money, sometimes you'll lose money, and sometimes you'll break even, but what matters is you're out doing what you love and building towards a future where you're making money every single time.
Even if you can't find a full band, you could try to put together a duo with a bassist/pianist/guitarist. Even just two melodic instruments could be interesting, especially when it comes to accompaniment. And if that doesn't work you can always just use backing tracks at first. But you need to have your own gigs, no matter how small they are at first. You need to get your name out there.
Also make as many videos as you can and post as much as you can. Every day if possible. Use TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, etc to post your videos but make sure you're consistent. Once you build up an audience people will start coming to see you and you'll be able to start getting better gigs at better venues and charging more.
And try and jam with as many musicians as you possibly can. Not only is it fun but you're meeting new people and forming new connections with people who have their own networks of people. You'd be surprised how many gigs you can get just from jamming with new people.
I don't know where in the world you are but if you're ever in LA hmu I'm always down to jam. Good luck bro and just remember what Jay Z said: "I'll sell ice in the winter, I'll sell fire in hell, I am a hustler baby I'll sell water to a whale." You got this
@@inyokutse I really appreciate the advice. Best advice I've gotten honestly
Yeah I stay here in LA. Hit me up anytime we can play.
But I'm really going to make some effort to do what you said. It all makes a lot of sense and it is something that I can do. Thank you so much for the advice.