As the locomotives were slightly too tall, I would have thought the easiest solution would have been to slice a bit off the cab walls and lower the cab roof. That would have left the original springs intact. Maybe the vibrations would have been acceptable with the original springs.
@@Rog5446 You're joking, I hope? You can't just 'bore out tunnels some more', not unless they're unlined tunnels in hard rock which none of the London tube lines are. (And even if they were, it would require shutting down the whole system for months).
Love these videos on specific classes/stock types whenever they drop; appeals to this train nerd to no end. ;) A video on the battery locos and the other engineering/departmental locos that have run on LU metals over the years (the sleet locos and the Acton Works shunters to name two others, one of which - L11 - is preserved at Epping station) would be a excellent follow-up to this one.
Clicked on this one because “Camelback” is a mountain in Phoenix where I live now. What a fun surprise to hear Lockport, my original hometown, randomly mentioned in passing, too!
"In 1900, if you wanted to impress the Neighbors with your 'Cosmopolitanism' and bring a bit of 'International-flavor' to your life, you had to order a 40-Ton Locomotive." Hmm, as a Model Railroader, who does Traction-modeling, I must agree! Seeing as I have a few Steeplecabs, I'm quite in-step with 1900s Cosmopolitanism!
My understanding is they were too high because no one had properly accounted for the rails not being right at the bottom of a circular tunnel, because, uh, geometry.
Of course, locomotives are retained on the London Underground, even to today. For engineering works trains, they have a fleet of battery electric locos. There are also preserved locos for special occasions, notably LT 12 "Sarah Siddons" that has ventured onto mainline track. There is also Metropolitan No: 1 steam loco. I have ridden behind LT 12, Met No: 1, and battery electric loco L44. The last two between Upminster and Upney in 1990, and the former to Windsor & Eton Riverside.
The LOR was quite an interesting railway for lots of reasons. To this day there's a tunnel entrance halfway up a cliff wall that's a reminder of its southern terminus.
@@lordmuntague cool ever since I found out about I liked the idea prior I only knew of the Chicago L and the NYC subway that had above street levels like the LOR
I learned something new. I didn't know that, in the UK, steeple cab locomotives were called Camelbacks. Here in the US, Camelback refers to a type of steam locomotive that had the engineer's cab on top of the boiler to give the fireman more room for shoveling coal in locomotives that burned Anthracite or hard coal. These were primarily used by railroads that ran through eastern Pennsylvania where most of the Anthracite was mined. They were eventually regulated out of existence because of the difficulty of communication between the fireman and the engineer.
Meanwhile in Denmark we got diesel locomotives with this kind of design in the 1950's however here they got the nickname "Roller skates" due to the cab placement resembling the heel of a roller scate and the motor compartments resembling where the foot would go on a roller scate.
When checking into hotels and I get asked, have you come by car and sometimes I respond, I come by train is there any chance of parking it in the car park LOL! But enjoyed the Camelback story, great video.
Top stuff Jago! I’m currently working on a non-transport related video which involves the old power station (the Dimco Buildings) between Westfield and the White City bus station. When filming them from across the road the other day, a security guard came out and told me to stop; he said they didn’t want people to ‘know they are here’!! They’re a bit big to miss though aren’t they?! Cheers and keep up the great work.
The spring size does not affect the pounding of an axle-hung motor on the track. It is unspring weight which is the problem. For a given train power, it is therefore advantageous to disperse that amongst many smaller (lighter) motors, hence why the multiple units caused less vibration.
They had these steeplecabs on the South shore line Interurban between Chicago and South Bend, Indiana. Built by Westinghouse. An interurban that is still in existence today.
Even though those little humpback locomotives didn't work out, everyone acted rationally and worked towards the better solution. That must have a first in the underground!
i swear whenever baltimore gets mentioned in something i dont expect it too its like somone yelling my name across a room. ive lived in baltimore my whole life and live close to the howard street tunnel. the tunnel are still regularly in use by freight railroads, and the station building while no longer serving as a train station has been used by MICA to house studios and other facilities for the art school. currently i think there are plans to raise the height of the tunnel in order to allow csx to run double stacked containers through the tunnel
Oh my god the dockers umbrella, Liverpool overhead railway. One of the carriages is loving restored in Liverpool museum on waterfront next to pier head. Love your video
Waterstones bookshop in Newcastle is just above Monument Metro station; if you go to the basement (children's books, graphic novels, science fiction and fantasy) you can hear the trains passing below every few minutes, but as the track is modern, and the trains are lightweight multiple units, there's no discernable vibration.
There is a photograph (perhaps the only one) of Orsay station in Paris with one of these types of locomotives hauling a train into the platforms. This would be many years before it became the Musée D'Orsay Art Gallery.
Hi Jago, I'm a highly prolific graphite pencil artist, fond of sketching old fashioned transport so I've actually drawn one of these Camelback locomotives.
That was actually really interesting, especially given how unique those locomotives were. We didn't have many electric camelbacks, bar those NER bo-bo's up in Tyneside for tightly curved tunnels.
Honestly a shame none of these survive today, they seem cool. An interesting artefact from the history of the Tube, one of those weird detours whose failure led to changes on the network we still feel to this day. Also what a time to be alive, a *luxury* underground line for everyone (who had 2d at least.) Great video!
I’d love to see some more content on the Great Central Railway as I don’t hear anyone talk about it. A video on the director class or 9Ns would be good.
I used to work on Riding House Street. Our computer was I the basement which bounced every time an underground train passed on the other side of the office wall
The Makers of Monopoly could have saved all that traveling around London and just named the squares ( rectangles ?) on the station names of the Central Line (post office, british museum, The Bank, Shepherd's Bush.
It's a refuge pit, something found on modern rapid transit systems today. If someone were to fall onto the rails, as there is nowhere for them to escape an approaching train beyond climbing back onto the platform, without a pit to take refuge in there is a very high likelihood they could be struck and killed. They are very common on the deep level stations of the Underground, with the only exception that comes to my mind being at Bank on the Waterloo & City platforms.
@@highpath4776 all the deep level stations have them. Piccadilly, Central, Northern, one half of the W&C, Victoria, Bakerloo and Jubilee. I think there's a few subsurface stations that have them as well, but don't quote me on that.
@@SilverGear_ I'd love to know what the survival stats are for people falling on the rails on tube lines - do the refuge pits actually work? Also, are people aware of their purpose - and that they are safe? If the average commuter fell onto the rails, I bet they would keep trying to climb out, until it was too late to get down into the pit. If you don't know that's what they're for, I think it would take remarkable courage to drop down into the pit and assume you were clear of anything under the train - or wouldn't get electrocuted by the central rail. (And, yes, I do know that the central rail is the neutral one - but does the average commuter?)
That was an impressively quick turnaround time at the end of the line, given that everything was manual. Pretty much a match for the much trumpeted, and no doubt more expensive (even allowing for inflation) auto-reverse system used on the Elizabeth line. That's progress for you.
An interesting piece on one of London's often forgotten pioneers, thank you Jago. You mentioned that some of the engines were sold on to industrial concerns once the CLR did away with locomotive hauled trains. Do you have any details as to where those might have gone or what purposes they fulfilled in their new industrial role?
@@highpath4776 I am making an assumption here; but repurposing a GE gear-less drive was next to impossible. The armature was the axle. the field magnets were on either side inducing rotation. The springing action allowed the axle/armature to move up and down between the field magnets. The idea was to reduce damage to the motor parts and opposed to a rigid mounted motor. An example are the Milwaukee Road's Bi-polar passenger units ordered in the 1910s. These were 1B+D+D+B1 arrangement and pulled passenger trains into the 1950s . One survives in the National Railroad Museum near St. Louis Mo. Short answer they had to rebuild or replace the trucks, sorry, bogies to make them geared.
Crediting Liverpool overhead with EMUs seems a bit of a stretch when it was just two independent locomotives on each side of the train each with a controller
I remember (during the war 😂) my granddad who was a structural engineer based at Camden Town took me as a nipper 1964/65 and he showed one that next day was going to barry next day... i didn't have clue , Bloody do now 😢
Again interesting video, perhaps an interesting fact, the reason why the US was so advanced in electrical traction was due to a collision in 1902 in the Park Avenue tunnel, that killed and burned several people. So congress reacted that no steam trains could be run in tunnels of a curtain length, so the industry had no other choice than to invest in electrical development…
7:39 The harsh angular front of the motor cars when the trains became EMU clashed with the elegant curves and paintwork of the passenger section. Couldn't that have been done better?
Nice one, Jago! You managed to squeeze the Camelbacks in quite nicely, ease the springs and gave the subject sufficient weight!....But a big fat zero on the Yerkesometer! Surely you could have given him a mention? Bad vibes indeed!
I think he's Really dropping heavy hints that he actually Wants one for his collection...pity they were all done away with..not a bit of remnant steel somewhere that we can clone rail-DNA from?
Looks like a Swiss crocodile or one of those mine crocodiles used in Co Durham although I think that the Co Durham ones were overhead electric and the Swiss ones all are.
The Harton Colliery line is South Shields was overhead electric - one of the locos was restored by its builders, Siemens, and is preserved at the North Tyneside Steam Railway. It was powered by batteries hidden in a coal truck as the NTSR is not electrified,. but I don't know if it's in working order now.
No point in giving everyone the hump above ground. I am a bit surprised that the locomotives were too big. Either the specification was wrong or they couldnt build to specification. I would guess both sides would have used imperial measurements so no excuses there. Of course, the SNCF recently managed to order trains that were too wide (in their case) which necessitated in shrinking the platforms ...at immense cost. Apparently lessons are not being learned. Whatever happened to "measure twice, cut once"?
US customary units and imperial units at that time were (and in part still are) not quite the same, however the difference in units of length was tiny and should be irrelevant in this application. With the adoption of the international yard of 1959, the units of length are now identical.
"Whatever happened to "measure twice, cut once"?" Measurements are for wimps. Modern managers don't need such things: their piece of paper is correct; it's reality which is wrong - which is why pretty much every new class of train introduced across Europe this century (including in the UK, it's not just SNCF) has had problems of one sort of another which wouldn't have existed had someone actually bothered to check things first rather than assume their paperwork was correct.
The notion of unsafe continuous wiring connecting through a train wasn't unfounded. I believe what caused the fire at Couronnes on the Paris Metro was high voltage high current cable between cars catching fire.
……….and you, Sir Jago Hazzard are the springs to the bogies of my UA-cam and to all of UA-cam. Keep ‘em ‘Tales From The Tube 🚇’ a-screeching onto the UA-cam platform.
The Central Line is still the best tube line on the London Underground but also is the hottest tube line in London. And inside the Central Line 1992 Stock it can get very hot especially in hot summer but at least it’s got good ventilation I think. Has there been fatalities on the Central Line in the past due to hot weather and heatwaves in the summer when London does get very warm. At least you now got the Elizabeth Line that is lot more modern, spacious and convenient the Class 345 trains that are fully air-conditioned and passengers can walk through each carriage.
Why would having an engine at each end require a high voltage cable between the engines. Each engine gets its power from the 3rd rail. It would only need a relatively low voltage control wire to an electro mechanical device that operated the regulator in sync. On the LSWR they even had mechanical wires to control the regulator on the steam loco from a cab at the other end of the train.
The 3rd rail supply voltage is not the same as the motor’s working voltage. You need switchgear to change it about and that was very bulky in the old days, so you couldn’t fit it to every motor carriage.
Were these the same "Steeple Cabs" where one example ended at Ilford? It could still be seen up to c.1970? On second thoughts I think the Ilford example came from around Newcastle...
The North Eastern Railway built a total of thirteen electric locomotives, numbered 1-13 (last LNER numbers 6480, 6481, 6490-6499, 6999; BR numbers 26500-11, 26600). Nos 1 and 2 were steeple cab shunting locomotives (Bo-Bo wheel arrangment) built in 1903 used in the Newcastle area. One of them is now in the NRM. Nos 3-12 were built in 1915 (also Bo-Bo layout) for electrification of the Newport-Shildon line in Co Durham (part of the original Stockton & Darlington route), and mothballed when that line was de-electrified in the late 1930s, the funds to renew the line's infrastructure not being available. They had two cabs, but long bonnets in front of them, so resembled "camelbacks". It was one of these, No 11 (26510) which was used as a shunting engine at Ilford. It had been proposed to use them on the Woodhead line electrification but that was delayed by WW2 and by the time it was completed the locomotives were 40 years old, so an additional ten EM1s (class 76) were built instead. No 13 was a 2-Co-2 design - again a double cab design, but with much shorter bonnets - built in 1922 for the planned electrification of the York-Newcastle line. When the NER became part of tghe LNER the following year, that plan was not carried through - a decision which gave us the Gresley Pacifics instead - and the loco remained a white elephant until it was formally withdrawn, along with all the others, in 1950. It would be yet another 40 years before the line was finally electrified, but on AC rather than DC.
@@ashleyjiscool It's not the tunnel in the Grange Hill - Chigwell tunnel actually. They have tunnel lights on throughout the day, so it would be somewhere else on the line...
It figures Jago would post a Video on Wednesday featuring Camelbacks🐫🐪....*it's Hump Day* 🤪😜........ meanwhile several of those old GE/B&O Electrics still exist today... but not in Museums(!?). One DOES sit in the backyard of a Collector(See? Someone DID have a place to put a 40-Ton Locomotive 🚂🤪!!) while another one survives on another Collector's property in the state of Delaware. See? Ya don't have to be British to be eccentric 😜👍.
Clerks in Cheapside had to find other ways of not keeping their lines straight, following the demise of the camelbacks. We made our own entertainment in them days...
Exactly. Technically, experiments can't 'fail'. You do them to find something out, if what you find out is that something doesn't work, then that's a very useful result - not a 'failure'. Unless you're Elon Musk, of course - when you try something out without a hope in hell of it working and with no proper preparation or planning. And then, when it fails, you claim it was an 'experiment', and "all data is useful".
The experiment was a success because the experimenters learnt something from it. It was not a "great" success because they learnt that they had followed the wrong path.
The Elon approach - there are no failures. Not sure the Central railway staff of 1902 would have been prepared to be filmed whooping and hollering with ecstatic joy as the locos were withdrawn though.
Am I right in thinking that the cab ends of the replacement driving cars (made up from the original coaches) subsequently were further rebuilt into sleet locomotives and are still in use today?
They did have a loop on the western end of the Central Line. Was that constructed by the same managers who bought the Camelback's Jago? Could it be a "solution" that lived longer than the problem associated with the Camelbacks?
I'm 63 years old and I am sure that I can remember seeing in London somewhere a camelback design train in the nineteen-sixties. It wasn't pulling a tube train and I don't think it was in operation, it looked somewhat beaten up. Is this possible or am I heading towards dementia?
No, you're not going doolally, what you probably saw was the last survivor of a fleet of camelbacks built by the North Eastern Railway for service on a freight line in Co. Durham. This loco was latterly used as a shunter at Ilford car depot until 1960 when the overhead system was changed from 1500Vdc to 6250Vac50Hz. The loco was left out of use until it was scrapped in 1964. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_EF1.
@@highpath4776 or perhaps GC/GWR trains running alongside the Central line at the West Ruislip end. A steam train on the flyover at South Ruislip junction would have been impressive.
Best tube channel. Period.
🥉
Well said sir i heartaly agree
You could add a "You" in there somewhere and still be accurate.
I fully concur my friend 🫡
I agree. Only tube channel....
As the locomotives were slightly too tall, I would have thought the easiest solution would have been to slice a bit off the cab walls and lower the cab roof. That would have left the original springs intact. Maybe the vibrations would have been acceptable with the original springs.
Perhaps the already cramped cabs would have become just too small
The easiest solution would have been bore out the tunnels some more.
@@Rog5446 immense costs though
@@Rog5446 You're joking, I hope? You can't just 'bore out tunnels some more', not unless they're unlined tunnels in hard rock which none of the London tube lines are. (And even if they were, it would require shutting down the whole system for months).
@@cr10001 Okay, the other solution is decapitate the cab and employ dwarfs for drivers.
Great vid Jago. "Come on darlin' get your seismograph out".
Love these videos on specific classes/stock types whenever they drop; appeals to this train nerd to no end. ;)
A video on the battery locos and the other engineering/departmental locos that have run on LU metals over the years (the sleet locos and the Acton Works shunters to name two others, one of which - L11 - is preserved at Epping station) would be a excellent follow-up to this one.
Clicked on this one because “Camelback” is a mountain in Phoenix where I live now. What a fun surprise to hear Lockport, my original hometown, randomly mentioned in passing, too!
"In 1900, if you wanted to impress the Neighbors with your 'Cosmopolitanism' and bring a bit of 'International-flavor' to your life, you had to order a 40-Ton Locomotive." Hmm, as a Model Railroader, who does Traction-modeling, I must agree! Seeing as I have a few Steeplecabs, I'm quite in-step with 1900s Cosmopolitanism!
My understanding is they were too high because no one had properly accounted for the rails not being right at the bottom of a circular tunnel, because, uh, geometry.
To be fair, that's probably mostly a miscommunication than straight up silliness!
Mistaking a chord for a tangent would surely have caused a height problem that not even shallow rails and unsprung bogies could have fixed.
Of course, locomotives are retained on the London Underground, even to today. For engineering works trains, they have a fleet of battery electric locos. There are also preserved locos for special occasions, notably LT 12 "Sarah Siddons" that has ventured onto mainline track. There is also Metropolitan No: 1 steam loco. I have ridden behind LT 12, Met No: 1, and battery electric loco L44. The last two between Upminster and Upney in 1990, and the former to Windsor & Eton Riverside.
The LOR was quite an interesting railway for lots of reasons. To this day there's a tunnel entrance halfway up a cliff wall that's a reminder of its southern terminus.
where abouts is this?
@@benalexander8624 Past the Merseyrail Brunswick Station on Riverside Drive when coming from the City Centre
And is one of the only overhead railways in this country
@@loco4loco Indeed, we called it the Docker's Umbrella.
@@lordmuntague cool ever since I found out about I liked the idea prior I only knew of the Chicago L and the NYC subway that had above street levels like the LOR
Thank you for this seismic story from the Tube. Much appreciated ❤
I learned something new. I didn't know that, in the UK, steeple cab locomotives were called Camelbacks. Here in the US, Camelback refers to a type of steam locomotive that had the engineer's cab on top of the boiler to give the fireman more room for shoveling coal in locomotives that burned Anthracite or hard coal. These were primarily used by railroads that ran through eastern Pennsylvania where most of the Anthracite was mined. They were eventually regulated out of existence because of the difficulty of communication between the fireman and the engineer.
Meanwhile in Denmark we got diesel locomotives with this kind of design in the 1950's however here they got the nickname "Roller skates" due to the cab placement resembling the heel of a roller scate and the motor compartments resembling where the foot would go on a roller scate.
They also remind me of the NER/LNER/BR steeple sabs employed on the steeply graded line to Newcastle Quayside branch up to 1964.
When checking into hotels and I get asked, have you come by car and sometimes I respond, I come by train is there any chance of parking it in the car park LOL! But enjoyed the Camelback story, great video.
Top stuff Jago!
I’m currently working on a non-transport related video which involves the old power station (the Dimco Buildings) between Westfield and the White City bus station. When filming them from across the road the other day, a security guard came out and told me to stop; he said they didn’t want people to ‘know they are here’!! They’re a bit big to miss though aren’t they?!
Cheers and keep up the great work.
I always felt LT didnt know what to do with them, Conversion to a bus garage would have been useful.
It looks like they recently become a private exhibition/events space… hence the security guard I guess.
The spring size does not affect the pounding of an axle-hung motor on the track. It is unspring weight which is the problem. For a given train power, it is therefore advantageous to disperse that amongst many smaller (lighter) motors, hence why the multiple units caused less vibration.
You know it’s a story about the old days as the central line was described as “luxurious”! 😜
4:24 It seems they're more luxurious than quite a few modern trains
They had these steeplecabs on the South shore line Interurban between Chicago and South Bend, Indiana. Built by Westinghouse. An interurban that is still in existence today.
Great video Jago 👍 love it when you cover locomotive classes/types.
Even though those little humpback locomotives didn't work out, everyone acted rationally and worked towards the better solution. That must have a first in the underground!
If I bought a 40ton locomotive everyone would be impressed with my style and sophistication , and it would be an excellent conversation piece.
I always get good vibes with your channel Jago.
I see what you did there!
I like how your videos give both historical technical and commercial information. Keep it up Jago. :)
i swear whenever baltimore gets mentioned in something i dont expect it too its like somone yelling my name across a room. ive lived in baltimore my whole life and live close to the howard street tunnel. the tunnel are still regularly in use by freight railroads, and the station building while no longer serving as a train station has been used by MICA to house studios and other facilities for the art school. currently i think there are plans to raise the height of the tunnel in order to allow csx to run double stacked containers through the tunnel
Always wondered what the story was with those locomotives.
Brilliant video sir.
Oh my god the dockers umbrella, Liverpool overhead railway. One of the carriages is loving restored in Liverpool museum on waterfront next to pier head. Love your video
Waterstones bookshop in Newcastle is just above Monument Metro station; if you go to the basement (children's books, graphic novels, science fiction and fantasy) you can hear the trains passing below every few minutes, but as the track is modern, and the trains are lightweight multiple units, there's no discernable vibration.
There is a photograph (perhaps the only one) of Orsay station in Paris with one of these types of locomotives hauling a train into the platforms. This would be many years before it became the Musée D'Orsay Art Gallery.
Interesting about the history about the early Locos Jago - Thanks for sharing!!! 😉🚂🚂🚂
Hi Jago, I'm a highly prolific graphite pencil artist, fond of sketching old fashioned transport so I've actually drawn one of these Camelback locomotives.
That was actually really interesting, especially given how unique those locomotives were. We didn't have many electric camelbacks, bar those NER bo-bo's up in Tyneside for tightly curved tunnels.
Honestly a shame none of these survive today, they seem cool. An interesting artefact from the history of the Tube, one of those weird detours whose failure led to changes on the network we still feel to this day. Also what a time to be alive, a *luxury* underground line for everyone (who had 2d at least.)
Great video!
Thanks for today's heavy weight tale from the Tube! 😁
I’d love to see some more content on the Great Central Railway as I don’t hear anyone talk about it. A video on the director class or 9Ns would be good.
Nice of you to explain LU history with way more detail than Wikipedia.
Interesting! Especially as I live about 300' from the Howard St. Tunnel. 😁
Another brilliant video by Jags, thank you for posting.
I used to work on Riding House Street. Our computer was I the basement which bounced every time an underground train passed on the other side of the office wall
The Makers of Monopoly could have saved all that traveling around London and just named the squares ( rectangles ?) on the station names of the Central Line (post office, british museum, The Bank, Shepherd's Bush.
Strange moment at around 7:40 - the driver of the new multiple-unit train appears to be holding a steering wheel!
What intrigues me about the Central Line is the raised rails at some stations where there is a "canyon" below the rails (for example at Mile End)
It's a refuge pit, something found on modern rapid transit systems today. If someone were to fall onto the rails, as there is nowhere for them to escape an approaching train beyond climbing back onto the platform, without a pit to take refuge in there is a very high likelihood they could be struck and killed. They are very common on the deep level stations of the Underground, with the only exception that comes to my mind being at Bank on the Waterloo & City platforms.
@@SilverGear_ does the district at mile end have them , I have never noticed them there
@@highpath4776 No, just the Central line
@@highpath4776 all the deep level stations have them. Piccadilly, Central, Northern, one half of the W&C, Victoria, Bakerloo and Jubilee. I think there's a few subsurface stations that have them as well, but don't quote me on that.
@@SilverGear_ I'd love to know what the survival stats are for people falling on the rails on tube lines - do the refuge pits actually work? Also, are people aware of their purpose - and that they are safe? If the average commuter fell onto the rails, I bet they would keep trying to climb out, until it was too late to get down into the pit. If you don't know that's what they're for, I think it would take remarkable courage to drop down into the pit and assume you were clear of anything under the train - or wouldn't get electrocuted by the central rail. (And, yes, I do know that the central rail is the neutral one - but does the average commuter?)
That was an impressively quick turnaround time at the end of the line, given that everything was manual. Pretty much a match for the much trumpeted, and no doubt more expensive (even allowing for inflation) auto-reverse system used on the Elizabeth line. That's progress for you.
Very interesting, thanks Jago 😊
An interesting piece on one of London's often forgotten pioneers, thank you Jago. You mentioned that some of the engines were sold on to industrial concerns once the CLR did away with locomotive hauled trains. Do you have any details as to where those might have gone or what purposes they fulfilled in their new industrial role?
I suppose you could use the motors as generators , or through a gearbox to run lifts or cranes
@@highpath4776 I am making an assumption here; but repurposing a GE gear-less drive was next to impossible. The armature was the axle. the field magnets were on either side inducing rotation. The springing action allowed the axle/armature to move up and down between the field magnets. The idea was to reduce damage to the motor parts and opposed to a rigid mounted motor. An example are the Milwaukee Road's Bi-polar passenger units ordered in the 1910s. These were 1B+D+D+B1 arrangement and pulled passenger trains into the 1950s . One survives in the National Railroad Museum near St. Louis Mo.
Short answer they had to rebuild or replace the trucks, sorry, bogies to make them geared.
I'm sure someone else has said it already in the comments, but it sounds like the multiple units were the straw that broke the Camel's backs.
That ‘Tale From The Tube 🚇’ buzzed like a swarm of busy bumblebees 🐝. A hive of activity if you ask me.
Great and very informative Video as per usual Jago. Now where to put my 40 tonne locomotive I just purchased.
2:26 Anyone else noticing Jago's French pronunciation is shifting into, "pas mal" territory?
I thought it was tres bon. Sacre bleu.
2:55 Shout out to Mr Hazzard / associates for being a fan of Robyn, and her bops
The saying goes that a camel is a horse designed by committee. The camelback certainly looks has a "pack of a cigarette pack" look about it.
Crediting Liverpool overhead with EMUs seems a bit of a stretch when it was just two independent locomotives on each side of the train each with a controller
Another fascinating one Jago. Thanks.
Thank you for exciting video. I really enjoyed this one.
I remember (during the war 😂) my granddad who was a structural engineer based at Camden Town took me as a nipper 1964/65 and he showed one that next day was going to barry next day... i didn't have clue , Bloody do now 😢
I would love a minature one of these on the RH&DR
I would love a video on freight trains that do/did recently operate on the tube and why it still/ did exist until recently.
Only engineering locomotives run on the tube today.
@@LondonEmergency999 Yes, but I believe in the 2010s, there were freight trains running across the tube network.
@@heidirabenau511 Definitely not freight.
@@heidirabenau511 - No, not at all.
@@heidirabenau511 Engineering trains for track work - they carry ballast.
Not freight. Please get your facts straight.
Again interesting video, perhaps an interesting fact, the reason why the US was so advanced in electrical traction was due to a collision in 1902 in the Park Avenue tunnel, that killed and burned several people.
So congress reacted that no steam trains could be run in tunnels of a curtain length, so the industry had no other choice than to invest in electrical development…
Those Camelbacks remind me of the North Eastern Railway ES1 locomotives
Sad that the camelbacks didn't make it to preservance. But always, very interesting video and tale from the tube, Jago 🙌🏻
7:39 The harsh angular front of the motor cars when the trains became EMU clashed with the elegant curves and paintwork of the passenger section. Couldn't that have been done better?
The chamfered edges are to help the longer driving motor cars fit round the right radius tube tunnels
We learn as much from our failures as from our successes. I'm glad the Central Railway was able to shake off its failures.
Jago was all shook up making this video.
Nice one, Jago! You managed to squeeze the Camelbacks in quite nicely, ease the springs and gave the subject sufficient weight!....But a big fat zero on the Yerkesometer! Surely you could have given him a mention? Bad vibes indeed!
He was hiding.
Even Jago's adverts are entertaining. Such a treasure.
I think he's Really dropping heavy hints that he actually Wants one for his collection...pity they were all done away with..not a bit of remnant steel somewhere that we can clone rail-DNA from?
Looks like a Swiss crocodile or one of those mine crocodiles used in Co Durham although I think that the Co Durham ones were overhead electric and the Swiss ones all are.
The Harton Colliery line is South Shields was overhead electric - one of the locos was restored by its builders, Siemens, and is preserved at the North Tyneside Steam Railway. It was powered by batteries hidden in a coal truck as the NTSR is not electrified,. but I don't know if it's in working order now.
@@roderickjoyce6716 there is an NCB crocodile at the Tanfield Railway too but I'm guessing it no longer works and is just a display engine.
Given where the Central Line runs to , perhaps the music should be provided by The Beech Bois
I didn’t get the Camelbacks till you showed a picture and then I understood the name.
No point in giving everyone the hump above ground.
I am a bit surprised that the locomotives were too big. Either the specification was wrong or they couldnt build to specification. I would guess both sides would have used imperial measurements so no excuses there.
Of course, the SNCF recently managed to order trains that were too wide (in their case) which necessitated in shrinking the platforms ...at immense cost. Apparently lessons are not being learned. Whatever happened to "measure twice, cut once"?
US customary units and imperial units at that time were (and in part still are) not quite the same, however the difference in units of length was tiny and should be irrelevant in this application. With the adoption of the international yard of 1959, the units of length are now identical.
"Whatever happened to "measure twice, cut once"?"
Measurements are for wimps. Modern managers don't need such things: their piece of paper is correct; it's reality which is wrong - which is why pretty much every new class of train introduced across Europe this century (including in the UK, it's not just SNCF) has had problems of one sort of another which wouldn't have existed had someone actually bothered to check things first rather than assume their paperwork was correct.
Jago presents a new tube video... starring Tom Hanks! 0:06
The notion of unsafe continuous wiring connecting through a train wasn't unfounded. I believe what caused the fire at Couronnes on the Paris Metro was high voltage high current cable between cars catching fire.
Cable insulation in the early 1900s was extremely crude and not very effective; it also did not age well.
……….and you, Sir Jago Hazzard are the springs to the bogies of my UA-cam and to all of UA-cam. Keep ‘em ‘Tales From The Tube 🚇’ a-screeching onto the UA-cam platform.
You’re the only channel whose ads I watch
You should do a video on battery locomotives!
I do love experimental failures. A reminder the past wasn’t perfect
I'm glad your bogies are well sprung.
But how long would they last in a desert?
With all that vibration, guess the camelbacks must have been drum-a-derries!!
The Central Line is still the best tube line on the London Underground but also is the hottest tube line in London. And inside the Central Line 1992 Stock it can get very hot especially in hot summer but at least it’s got good ventilation I think.
Has there been fatalities on the Central Line in the past due to hot weather and heatwaves in the summer when London does get very warm. At least you now got the Elizabeth Line that is lot more modern, spacious and convenient the Class 345 trains that are fully air-conditioned and passengers can walk through each carriage.
Why would having an engine at each end require a high voltage cable between the engines. Each engine gets its power from the 3rd rail. It would only need a relatively low voltage control wire to an electro mechanical device that operated the regulator in sync. On the LSWR they even had mechanical wires to control the regulator on the steam loco from a cab at the other end of the train.
The 3rd rail supply voltage is not the same as the motor’s working voltage. You need switchgear to change it about and that was very bulky in the old days, so you couldn’t fit it to every motor carriage.
Springs to your bogies… now I have disturbing images in my head that will haunt me for a long time 😵💫
Were these the same "Steeple Cabs" where one example ended at Ilford? It could still be seen up to c.1970?
On second thoughts I think the Ilford example came from around Newcastle...
A few people have brought those engines up. Maybe I should take a trip to Shildon and get some shots of the survivor…
The North Eastern Railway built a total of thirteen electric locomotives, numbered 1-13 (last LNER numbers 6480, 6481, 6490-6499, 6999; BR numbers 26500-11, 26600).
Nos 1 and 2 were steeple cab shunting locomotives (Bo-Bo wheel arrangment) built in 1903 used in the Newcastle area. One of them is now in the NRM.
Nos 3-12 were built in 1915 (also Bo-Bo layout) for electrification of the Newport-Shildon line in Co Durham (part of the original Stockton & Darlington route), and mothballed when that line was de-electrified in the late 1930s, the funds to renew the line's infrastructure not being available. They had two cabs, but long bonnets in front of them, so resembled "camelbacks". It was one of these, No 11 (26510) which was used as a shunting engine at Ilford. It had been proposed to use them on the Woodhead line electrification but that was delayed by WW2 and by the time it was completed the locomotives were 40 years old, so an additional ten EM1s (class 76) were built instead.
No 13 was a 2-Co-2 design - again a double cab design, but with much shorter bonnets - built in 1922 for the planned electrification of the York-Newcastle line. When the NER became part of tghe LNER the following year, that plan was not carried through - a decision which gave us the Gresley Pacifics instead - and the loco remained a white elephant until it was formally withdrawn, along with all the others, in 1950. It would be yet another 40 years before the line was finally electrified, but on AC rather than DC.
5:35 An empty Central Line carriage....We ARE in The Matrix!!!!
Has to be on the Woodford shuttle in a tunnel
There's a tunnel just outside Grange Hill - it's not particularly long but it does exist!
@@ashleyjiscool It's not the tunnel in the Grange Hill - Chigwell tunnel actually. They have tunnel lights on throughout the day, so it would be somewhere else on the line...
Pandemic days
It figures Jago would post a Video on Wednesday featuring Camelbacks🐫🐪....*it's Hump Day* 🤪😜........ meanwhile several of those old GE/B&O Electrics still exist today... but not in Museums(!?). One DOES sit in the backyard of a Collector(See? Someone DID have a place to put a 40-Ton Locomotive 🚂🤪!!) while another one survives on another Collector's property in the state of Delaware. See? Ya don't have to be British to be eccentric 😜👍.
But, it does help! An expatriate Brit in Oz, still very happy to be eccentric.
This week I’m finally over the hump. 😊
I think he said that the motors were on the axles, so were un-sprung and the shortening of the springs would not have had any effect on the vibration.
Hi Jago from Spain. What does one do with a 40 tone locomotive - use it as a paperweight, I would have thought or, maybe, a doorstop.
very interesting, thanks
Great video Jago
Clerks in Cheapside had to find other ways of not keeping their lines straight, following the demise of the camelbacks. We made our own entertainment in them days...
But could we say that the experiment was a success as they learnt that using these locos was not the best way?
Exactly. Technically, experiments can't 'fail'. You do them to find something out, if what you find out is that something doesn't work, then that's a very useful result - not a 'failure'.
Unless you're Elon Musk, of course - when you try something out without a hope in hell of it working and with no proper preparation or planning. And then, when it fails, you claim it was an 'experiment', and "all data is useful".
The experiment was a success because the experimenters learnt something from it. It was not a "great" success because they learnt that they had followed the wrong path.
The Elon approach - there are no failures. Not sure the Central railway staff of 1902 would have been prepared to be filmed whooping and hollering with ecstatic joy as the locos were withdrawn though.
I wonder idly who discovered the locos were too big, and how...
Probably the first driver when it went scrape!
Am I right in thinking that the cab ends of the replacement driving cars (made up from the original coaches) subsequently were further rebuilt into sleet locomotives and are still in use today?
They were indeed rebuilt as such, but only one survives in the London Transport Museum’s collection.
They did have a loop on the western end of the Central Line. Was that constructed by the same managers who bought the Camelback's Jago? Could it be a "solution" that lived longer than the problem associated with the Camelbacks?
An interesting look at a successful failure. 👏👏👍😀
I'm 63 years old and I am sure that I can remember seeing in London somewhere a camelback design train in the nineteen-sixties. It wasn't pulling a tube train and I don't think it was in operation, it looked somewhat beaten up. Is this possible or am I heading towards dementia?
No, you're not going doolally, what you probably saw was the last survivor of a fleet of camelbacks built by the North Eastern Railway for service on a freight line in Co. Durham. This loco was latterly used as a shunter at Ilford car depot until 1960 when the overhead system was changed from 1500Vdc to 6250Vac50Hz. The loco was left out of use until it was scrapped in 1964.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_EF1.
@@peterharris3006 Ah ha! Very possible. Thank you.👍
Were the camel backs the reason for the strange track layout / configuration at White City today (I.e. the run-around loop)?
No - the terminal loop was built with the extension to serve the White City Exhibition in 1908
It’s incredible to me how they got frequency to every 2 minutes at peak time when they had to swap locos at the end of the line
🏅
👏🏻👏🏻🥇👏🏻👏🏻
I certainly didn't get the hump watching this video.
wow Jago nearing 200,000 - I believe I joined when he was nearer 20,000 if not below 10,000
I wonder how many people are still left alive who can remember regular steam train services on the central line like myself . (BTW i’m 70) 😜😜😜
Would that be the Eastern Region ones via Ilford ?
@@highpath4776 or perhaps GC/GWR trains running alongside the Central line at the West Ruislip end.
A steam train on the flyover at South Ruislip junction would have been impressive.