Thank you Cory, I really appreciate this, and don't worry, there is a Belgian beer waiting in the fridge here for you. And more than one. In Dutch we say 'zand erover', meaning, what happened didn't happen, we shake hands and continue sharing beauty with people who are waiting for us to do so. Take care!
You weren’t being stupid. You’re a scholar. You presented a well-researched refutation. You used dictionary definitions and logic. Your wife is wrong for injecting herself into matters which she is not expert and do not concern her. Women are high in agreeability index any psychiatrist will attest. It’s understandable she wants to have everybody get along on every issue. That’s not the real world; you stood up for an idea that’s important to you and the music world. Admittedly your “cult-leader” statements may have been a bit unwarranted but other than that you were well within your area of expertise to proclaim another’s assertions spurious.
Hi Marshall, I'm Cory's wife. I just feel a need to clarify a few things. You are right, I am not an expert on double beat theories etc....but I am a pianist. I have no issues with Cory debating theories or ideas and even allowing them to get "heated." However, I am completely against name calling, bashing, calling someone a quack or a charlatan and flat out saying that someone is a cult leader. To me, this behavior is very unprofessional and childish and not "scholarly" at all. I am also a part of Cory's business and I am an associate music director of a church. Cory is also organist at the church. I am not sure if you saw the last video Cory deleted but it was not a good reflection on him and also as a worship leader of a church. I just had to remind him of this fact. Thankfully, he appreciates what I have to say and why he doesn't always agree with me and vice versa, we can discuss it. I am thankful for this as (from a woman's side who is well into middle-age) many men do not know how to communicate or listen for that matter. I also don't feel a need to have everyone "get along" but like I told Cory....this whole music debate is not a life threatening matter so why take it so serious and make enemies along the way. Thanks for your input because I do find it helpful in understanding other's thoughts and assumptions on this matter:-)
Marshall Harrison: The assertion that Winters is a cult-leader is perfectly warranted. His half-baked ideas constitute a menace to Music, and to music-lovers.
@@marilynhall9622 Let us not minimize the importance of this so-called “debate.” Music is integral to the soul of mankind, and therefore a very serious matter. This controversy cuts across sexual stereotypes; there is no “man’s” nor “woman’s” way of dealing with Winters’ charlatanism; it is just plain wrong, and needs to be condemned as such.
@@danielwaitzman2118 Agreed. Ill keep on with it, because he's now playing the game of pretending everyone is making 'ad-hominem' arguments against him. Whereas in fact since he has invested so much of himself in his quack-theory, he is fully associated with it and it's perfectly legitimate to speak of his actions/motivations in combination with the 'ideas'. I was perfectly willing to accept that he'd invested a bit too much of himself in an idea that was going down the pan and was thus working hard to try and save it. Now he's just in Andrew Wakefield-type territory, propping-up a debunked idea.
Classy move, Cory. As others have stated a heated debate can be healthy, but devolving into insults and potshots is another matter. We all stick our feet in our mouths from time to time (my wife will attest to that). The important thing is acknowledging & owning it, which is far easier said than done.
Big of you Corey. As an amateur pianist I like play as smoothly and accurately as possible. The temps, for example, in Czerny, will remain impossible to reach even practicing "40 hours a day". Does this mean give up... "you cannot ever get there." Sometimes, I could enjoy a little faster than strict WBPM, but I wish teachers would stop holding Lisitsa's performances the only valid performances. Are we losing beauty in a personal battle? (Just asking.)
Interesting. I think your wife is wrong here. When people are passionate about what they feel and love they get, well they get passionate! I think you're guilty of that. So what?! Is that that bad ? Not in my book. Wim Winters has his agenda which I think is pretty clear for all to see. I personally do not regard him to be scholarly or informative. I am fascinated how he has got musicians of even good quality to support him given that when pushed right to the wire he never once has come up with hard evidence for this rhythmic 'theory'. My own personal opinion is that he's earning well from it and that's the only basis of it. As for revealing some long lost rhythmic prehistoric world that we all know to be better or superior to the one that has been handed to us by the likes of Chopin Liszt Brahms etc etc well I don't think so. That is based on my own 'musicality that I have learned from great teachers throughout my musical / piano life allied to my own inner musicality I was born with. None of that legacy is illustrated in laughably abysmal performances of the Beethoven sonatas some of which are recently as poor musically as it could get. Now Winters is even attempting to rewrite the rythmic aspects of Beethovens music - his attempts to sprinkle notes inégales all over these works is an abomination in my opinion - they go beyond funny as they actually ridicule the musical idea on a basic level. I see your comments for the Op 111 yesterday and yes they are to the point but they are also absolutely bang on the money - spot on for saying so too. I see nothing wrong in pointing out when somebody is spectacularly wrong and when their answer tends to be to ridicule their opposition as he did with you (did you show your wife that video where Winters did that ?) then they deserve taking down more than a peg or too. You probably noticed Winters telling people they "dont know what they're talking about" as opposed to the great critique and musicologist himself. For me he's a good example how to draw people into a complete unproven nonsense and make some money doing it. For myself if people are listening to these 'performances' on Auth Sound and thinking they are getting a better idea of what the composer was trying to achieve then I'm forever baffled. When I hear "now I've known what Beethoven REALLY meant" "Oh this is how it should always have been" then God knows what they've made of this music before now? - that I find baffling. I've 'watched' tens of thousands of happy listeners, audiences go home elated at the renditions we have known for historically over two three hundred years and no-one has complained until now !!?!?!
I don't think the great Composers obsessed that much on tempo markings but more focus on the human condition of the music and expression. Why do we have conductors if we don't need to focus on dynamics and expression. Everyone claims to know how these amazing human beings composed there music, but unless we sat and got to know them personally and heard them play we will never know. Who Beethoven to you might be entirely different to me in the way we hear his music and message.
Dr. Hall, you have my personal respect and admiration for handling this the gentleman's way. With so much animosity in 2020, it's a relief to me when people are willing to own up to their mistakes and make a sincere apology. I hope more people will take the high road the way you have in this video You have earned me as a subscriber to your channel for the future.
I see no problem with a heated discussion, and the overall incentive over tempo analysis has made many people who distanced themselves from music to come back with a renewed interest. I think there's a lot in common between Wim and you, and perhadps you guys could collaborate on something going foward. While I do understand that some people get exagerated emotional reactions to wim videos and such, there's no need to go beyond courtesy, in the end, you guys understand what is to be a classical musician these days, and we know its not easy.
It is true that sometimes there is no better word than b......t to say that something is a bull...t. But to stop the “controversy” has been a very clever move...
no issues. I'm sure Clara Schumann also scolded Robert on Liszt or the other way around Lol let's play more and theorize less. We all agree that early MM are just crazy fast. Just some think early metronomes were badly inaccurate while others think the reading should be in double beat. The truth is somewhere in between...
By all means, provide counter-arguments to Winters' views, and never apologize for it. As soon as we engage in hostilities though, we separate communities and strengthen divides. Nobody wants music to turn into a "single-beat" vs "whole-beat" scenario wherein the two groups dislike each other. If ones goal was to convince whole-beat believers that single-beat is correct, we have to provide evidence and convincing arguments that explain why single-beat is the better option. Other youtube channels have been much much more negative and hostile towards whole-beat and I hopefully convinced them to approach the subject in a more peaceful manner too. At least whole-beaters are reading the evidence and coming to a conclusion, even if it's the wrong conclusion, it's great seeing many people interested in tempo.
Just my personal opinion, you shouldn’t have apologized, you have a right to your opinion. I love Wim’s channel, watch him every week. Just the same, you didn’t have to back down. You wear the testicles, not your noodle-spined wife, God bless her
Of course I can have an opinion, but it all has to do with the way the opinion is expressed. Looking back on the latest rant video, I think I expressed my opinions in the wrong fashion and put off a lot of people. My wife simply made me come to my senses and I realized I expressed my opinions in the wrong fashion. I disagree with Wim on many things and many of the performances on his channel are indeed truly awful and anti-historical, but I need to learn to express my opinions and disagreements in a more professional fashion.
@@BachScholar Well tbh sometimes things need to said and in a way that there is no misunderstanding. Sometimes that requires strong words. You've been doing just that. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Wim Winters is a bully, anyone can see that, so as my parents taught me - you stand up to bullies you never let them do their thing. As far as I can ascertain you've 'stood up' to him rather well. I feel you could have shown your wife exactly how he operates and I think she would have said "carry on"...imo
I thought when I first saw the "Wim Winters" videos that they were a little strange. The topic seemed more suitable to an academic journal that UA-cam. I didn't even bother to watch the latest of the ilk because I'm frankly just not interested in the subject. Still love your tutorials and performances. One thing I might suggest is adding some contextual introductions to the performances.
I thought the videos we're indeed a bit out of context, but you made good points... Especially Wims stances about romantic era music and how it should be played slower are very strange. So did you actually change your opinion on this, or did you remove it out of pressure?
Hi Cory. Thanks for the video. It takes courage to make an apology like that. I thought your videos were way out of line, but never made any comment. What I always thought about these videos was: there will always be different takes on everything. It does NOT mean one side is right and the other side is wrong, and it also does NOT mean one side is intelligent and the other stupid. They are just different opinions. It's OK to disagree, but it's NOT OK to be disrespectful. I'm really glad you had the humility to make and to publish this videos. We have to learn to live with different (sometimes opposing) perspectives, and learn what we can from them. Thanks. Well done.
I, for one, like the drama! LOL. But good on you for this. By the way, I'm slowly but surely working my way through Sight-Reading & Harmony, and I'm really getting a lot out of it. There's a wealth of knowledge, theory, and exercise there that will last me a very long time!
I fail to understand why you feel obligated to apologize to Wim Winters. Mr. Winters advocates a system of performance and of musical thought that most professional musicians find utterly offensive. One has only to listen to his recorded performances and those of his followers to realize how utterly bizarre his so-called “theories” really are. He effectively abolishes the fast movement, promotes a spurious pseudo-musicological approach to music history by making repeated assertions that are demonstrably false, and even goes so far as to make statements about changes in the human psyche since the 18th century that are completely without foundation. While doing so, he manages to insult publicly some of the greatest pianists of our time. He claims to revolutionize Music through his half-baked “tempo journey.” He runs his channel like a religious cult and censors virtually all who disagree with him. It is certainly desirable to have comity in the musical community; but such comity must be predicated upon a certain degree of professional conduct, respect for one’s colleagues, and truthfulness. Mr. Winters is way over the line in these respects; and were UA-cam governed and mediated by professional musicians, he should never have attracted the attention he has received from frustrated, lonely amateur musicians and music-lovers in this time of cultural anomie. By all means make friends with Wim Winters and have a beer with him, if you will. I for one, despite my friendly feelings of respect for our fellow human beings, should find it difficult to sit down for a beer, with a man whose ideas threaten the very existence of Music, without choking. I do not dislike the man; but his ideas are so outrageously bad as to preclude professional discourse. I might talk to him about the weather; but that is all. Apology? For stating the obvious truth? It is Wim WInters who owes the musical community a most abject apology and retraction, before he can even hope to be taken seriously. Addendum: If you MUST apologe for something, may I suggest that you do so for the following statement that you made some inches below, to wit: "I do know more than anyone else about Bach's tempi. I have discovered Bach's 'secret tempo code' so to speak, which nobody else but me knows about."
I've studied music extensively, rubbish. Winters proves his point when pianists have to slow down to play bars that would be impossible to play at the speed selected.
@@rexcowan9209 Your assertion that pianists have to slow down in order to play certain allegedly “unplayable” passages (according to Wim Winters) is meaningless without particularization and citations; and it is certainly no proof of Wim Winters’ ridiculous assertions. More important are the disastrous musical consequences of Winters’ tempi and his approach to music-making. Some things are not open to debate, and this is one of them. Incidentally, his musicological “evidence” is based on lies and distortions. Winters and Sanna are scammers, pure and simple; and they do damage to musical culture. Fr. Gadient is an ignorant amateur musicologist who needs to have a talk with his bishop.
@@rexcowan9209 The passage in question is cadential: therefore ad libitum. Strict tempi do not apply. With due respect, Mr. Cowan, you are being pedantic to the nth degree. The bottom line is that “whole-beat” interpretations sound terrible, flout tempi rubrics, go against everything we know and feel about performance and music, and are utterly devoid of historical support. The use of Maelzel’s metronome is exceptionally well-documented; its “double-beat” employment is without historical evidence. Wim Winters is either a liar or a mentally-ill individual-probably both. Follow him, if you wish: but be aware that you are going against hundreds of years of tradition and hard evidence-and also insulting the intelligence of all good musicians, living and dead.
@@danielwaitzman2118 You need to tone your language down. Accusing people of lying and being mentally ill does not help your case. Perhaps you should apologise for doing this.
Thank you!!! I really love Wim Winters and I love your work too! This is great. It takes courage and humility to do this. It is GREATLY appreciated. I'm subscribed to both channels: BachScholar and AuthenticSound. Again: Thank you!!! ❤️❤️❤️
Let them go slower and keep up playing better than them. You should not have deleted anything. You have always been very factual and you are entitled to keep and share your opinion.
You are a decent man Cory. It is so rare to hear apologies these days. I hope Wim will forgive you, and maybe some day you can discuss the topic of the metronome use.
I’ve personally enjoyed all of your rant videos on the subject of double beat. I now know far more on the subject than I did a few weeks ago, but I can still see how some found them to be a bit too strongly worded. It’s good to be courteous, and it’s even better to be humble, but please don’t lose that righteous fire. Perhaps you could begin a Bachscholar rants video series where you continue to address controversial or topical musical subjects but in a way that you feel is more constructive?
The problem is obviously not that you called someone an idiot, but that you claim to be THE leading expert on tempo, while having no idea what you're talking about. It's the world of the Internet. Everyone calls everyone idiots, constantly. To lie about your credentials and claiming that Beethoven and Czerny were double beat composers (but only sometimes!) obviously will piss people off, because it's very... unprofessional and surely not good research.
@@BachScholar because every existing evidence shows that Czerny was single beat. And every existing evidence also shows that Beethoven used single beat. I made a new video in your honour. You can check it out 😊 And how is it THE world leading authority on tempo can't be found in any musicologist magazine? I've heard of one, but as the world leading authority, there should obviously be several...
I am not in academia, that is, I do not teach in any institutions, which is why I do not publish in musicology journals. But I do know more than anyone else about Bach's tempi. I have discovered Bach's "secret tempo code" so to speak, which nobody else but me knows about.
Your evidence is based mostly on how fast Czerny is said to have "played" the piano by contemporaries. How fast Czerny played the piano is totally irrelevant to his notational system, what is possible, what is practical and reasonable, and what is implied to pianists who follow this system.
I do not fully understand this apology - but I respect it. The personal part: Cory Hall vs Wim Winters both claiming to be the "true" expert, yes that's sort of funny. The thoughts and beliefs of millions of musicians worldwide about music and its "true tempo" seem to be worthless if we take the words of these experts literally. The question about the final solution of the tempo problem will stay open. And that's a good thing! Music is a language. It may change with time. But nobody owns it! Not even the composers!
I'm not sure music is a language. And at the same time, I'm not sure it is not a language. If music was a language, it would be one made of words that nobody can really understand. Or, in the best case, made of words that everybody understands differently. So it might be a language whose words, sentences, verses, etc can mean different things to every listener or musician. If music is a language, it is an amazing one, that is for sure.
@@daniandres3211 Yes, that's a good point! The language of music is very different from our normal languages. It's very hard to translate musical content in our every day language. Music can be very precise when it's about feelings and it's mostly unexplored how this is even working.
Respect for apologizing Cory - I sometimes dot he same thing as you did, getting heated when it's not necessary. Really appreciate your channel and best wishes to Wim as well, even though I disagree with his ideas ^^. Also to Win personally, I think I left a bit of a rude comment on your channel, won't do that again. Apologies from me too. This debate has literally 0 impact on my life and I should let people be who they are and have their own ideas. I've been around some real conspiracy channels on UA-cam, and that stuff gets nasty. This is nothing like it - trust me. Argument must be had without getting personal or insulting, and that's hard to do in practice...
Tremendous respect for this follow-up, it shows amazing integrity. Thank you. I would like to apologize for my own comment on that one, I could definitely have been more constructive in my feedback. This was a wonderful resolution to this, and I am happy to be able to continue enjoying the amazing work that you do. Cheers
You should draw little mohawks on the flamingos on your shirt and when people ask what they are, you can tell them they're "Punk Flamingos". Oh, and thanks for the apology.
Although you may have carried it a bit too far you have absolutely NOTHING that warrants an apology. It was nice to see someone being honest on the Internet. Why can't one express a difference of opinion... is that now unacceptable? You just caved in to the cancel culture and cancelled yourself. Deleting previously uploaded heartfelt videos is like tearing down a statue. I thought it was all quite educational and interesting.
Some people are sensitive to words, others to music, the language without words. Could you publish a few more music samples and use slightly fewer words? That would clarify much more than the words you use. So if you want to attack Wim, let that be heard by a music example. Then we, listeners to your videos, know even better what you mean. This also applies, and perhaps most of all if you are opposed to others, such as Wim Winters. In the future, therefore, give your comments and objections by means of music examples. This makes it much clearer what you mean than by words. And ... an important advantage of this is: your opponents will not be offended by this! And they don't feel the need for your apologies anymore.
Dr. Hall, you're an extraordinary soloist and a very talented scholar. But much better than all of that is your unknown (at least for me) humility. Your wife is a wise person. Congratulations. Keep safe. Best wishes.
I appreciate seeing this apology. I was one of your subscribers and for a while I was with you in your critique, but it did seem to descend into name calling and video after video on the same subject. That's why I unsubscribed. There are enough people out there already that engage in flame wars and that's not where I personally like to be with music. For me it is about relaxation, understanding and respecting different peoples' interpretation as being just as valid as one's own. We can, should and must be passionate about our craft, but not to the extent of sucking the enjoyment out of the works before us. I still avoid Wim's videos for some similar attitudes but it's good to see that perspective has prevailed on this occasion.
Nice! I was about unsubscribe from your channel because all that negativity. I even didn’t know Wim Winters. I knew from you. It takes a lot of courage do what you just did. I think we all make videos to help or inspire people. And if it’s possible, make music grow (in our possibilities) Congrats for this video and for your wife ;)
I agree....you are not an example of bad behaviour on youtube....all the opposite...maybe you were just a little tired....your channel is awesome...this public apology proves that you are an educated and intelligent man...you are not an idiot....wish you all the best from Italy...sorry for my english...seriously your beautiful channel and your work speak for yourself...can’t wait to watch any other video from you....i’d love to see you analyze some bach chorales...again...take care..
Its so nice to see this kind of behavior about nice people, Congratulations BachScholar for your atitude to have the courage to express your real fellings in this video. Hello from Brazil :) thanks for be my teacher :D 36 years (10 mouths of study by myself) Thanks for everything :)
Yes UA-cam is for expressing and sharing. If it's not seemly to go in public or a school to rant, people in generally should not do so on social media. Rant or otherwise. Media are powerful tools, cuts like a knife, use it wisely.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing (the personal attack) is in fact all too common. In the field of logical argumentation, it is called an “ad hominem” attack, meaning that not the argument, but the person is attacked. This is also part of a series of “logical fallacies”. Only the most educated minds are capable of transcending the personal, and attacking the argument with solid logic and facts (usually philosophers, i.e. a very, very tiny minority of people). I have certainly made similar mistakes, but I have now fixed these weaknesses. But it took some work. Having said all that, it also takes a less common mind to readily admit to errors in judgement, and this always deserves respect. As Seneca wrote: “To err is human, and our mind has many faults, but this can be improved”. The Great Courses have a course called “The Art Of Debate”, I really recommend it to anyone who wants to become a capable debater. I think everybody would benefit greatly. And one who knows he can attack an argument with logic and facts, will feel a lot calmer, too. It’s like martial arts for the mind....once you know you can defend yourself well, you will feel more at peace. :)
Don't get sad on this Cory. I am sure Win Winters, and all the people can understand your tecnical disagreement, and that at some point it went out of the desirable way, but that's all. It's human and I'm sure you have everyone's forgiveness. A big hug, (for you and Win, both :-)
The term "straw man" is far overused nowadays. People use it without even knowing what it means. Never did I or Wim engage in "straw man" arguments. Calling someone a "cult leader" or an "idiot" are not straw man arguments, neither is claiming such and such tempo is incorrect because of whatever reason.
Yes please. It's just a theory. Don't put anyone on the stake, just because they believe in something that we think is stupid. Let people believe in what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone. Let it be. I said that earlier as well Dr. Cory.
Great video - great apology. It takes a REAL MAN to make an apology. Bravo. Please go check out my Rachmaninov g in prelude video - were the slow section was inspired by your hand positioning tutorial!
Thank you Dr.Cory for this. Very few people have the maturity to do what you have done with this video. You have showed out there what a giant man you are. Proud of being part of your community! Wim and I hope to see you soon in Belgium for a beer and an italian pizza!
I think if you kept your pony tail this would have not turned out like this. What a change over the years. I did not see your video just sad you ran into something which then made you do this humhum apology😂🤢
We all have things in our past to be ashamed of. They don't matter and no one should hold grudges. I'm glad you won't be letting yourself be consumed by online toxicity.
Thank you Cory, I really appreciate this, and don't worry, there is a Belgian beer waiting in the fridge here for you. And more than one. In Dutch we say 'zand erover', meaning, what happened didn't happen, we shake hands and continue sharing beauty with people who are waiting for us to do so. Take care!
Thanks, Wim!
Holy cow, I've never seen this before.
Both wim and Cory are among my favorite people.
It’s classical music - surely ‘class’ should win the day...Very classy guys...
You should debate live guys. If you have logical and historical arguments,
I'm not sure if these two should debate because based on both of their tempos, we might be here for a VERY long time.
Takes a real man to apologise publicly. Hats off to you
You weren’t being stupid. You’re a scholar. You presented a well-researched refutation. You used dictionary definitions and logic. Your wife is wrong for injecting herself into matters which she is not expert and do not concern her. Women are high in agreeability index any psychiatrist will attest. It’s understandable she wants to have everybody get along on every issue. That’s not the real world; you stood up for an idea that’s important to you and the music world. Admittedly your “cult-leader” statements may have been a bit unwarranted but other than that you were well within your area of expertise to proclaim another’s assertions spurious.
Hi Marshall, I'm Cory's wife. I just feel a need to clarify a few things. You are right, I am not an expert on double beat theories etc....but I am a pianist. I have no issues with Cory debating theories or ideas and even allowing them to get "heated." However, I am completely against name calling, bashing, calling someone a quack or a charlatan and flat out saying that someone is a cult leader. To me, this behavior is very unprofessional and childish and not "scholarly" at all. I am also a part of Cory's business and I am an associate music director of a church. Cory is also organist at the church. I am not sure if you saw the last video Cory deleted but it was not a good reflection on him and also as a worship leader of a church. I just had to remind him of this fact. Thankfully, he appreciates what I have to say and why he doesn't always agree with me and vice versa, we can discuss it. I am thankful for this as (from a woman's side who is well into middle-age) many men do not know how to communicate or listen for that matter. I also don't feel a need to have everyone "get along" but like I told Cory....this whole music debate is not a life threatening matter so why take it so serious and make enemies along the way. Thanks for your input because I do find it helpful in understanding other's thoughts and assumptions on this matter:-)
@@marilynhall9622 He IS a quack though. It's probably impolite to say it in public, but it's true.
Marshall Harrison: The assertion that Winters is a cult-leader is perfectly warranted. His half-baked ideas constitute a menace to Music, and to music-lovers.
@@marilynhall9622 Let us not minimize the importance of this so-called “debate.” Music is integral to the soul of mankind, and therefore a very serious matter. This controversy cuts across sexual stereotypes; there is no “man’s” nor “woman’s” way of dealing with Winters’ charlatanism; it is just plain wrong, and needs to be condemned as such.
@@danielwaitzman2118 Agreed. Ill keep on with it, because he's now playing the game of pretending everyone is making 'ad-hominem' arguments against him. Whereas in fact since he has invested so much of himself in his quack-theory, he is fully associated with it and it's perfectly legitimate to speak of his actions/motivations in combination with the 'ideas'.
I was perfectly willing to accept that he'd invested a bit too much of himself in an idea that was going down the pan and was thus working hard to try and save it. Now he's just in Andrew Wakefield-type territory, propping-up a debunked idea.
Classy move, Cory. As others have stated a heated debate can be healthy, but devolving into insults and potshots is another matter. We all stick our feet in our mouths from time to time (my wife will attest to that). The important thing is acknowledging & owning it, which is far easier said than done.
Matthew Bunce wives need their husbands to keep them in line just as much.
Big of you Corey. As an amateur pianist I like play as smoothly and accurately as possible. The temps, for example, in Czerny, will remain impossible to reach even practicing "40 hours a day". Does this mean give up... "you cannot ever get there." Sometimes, I could enjoy a little faster than strict WBPM, but I wish teachers would stop holding Lisitsa's performances the only valid performances. Are we losing beauty in a personal battle? (Just asking.)
Interesting. I think your wife is wrong here. When people are passionate about what they feel and love they get, well they get passionate! I think you're guilty of that. So what?! Is that that bad ? Not in my book. Wim Winters has his agenda which I think is pretty clear for all to see. I personally do not regard him to be scholarly or informative. I am fascinated how he has got musicians of even good quality to support him given that when pushed right to the wire he never once has come up with hard evidence for this rhythmic 'theory'. My own personal opinion is that he's earning well from it and that's the only basis of it.
As for revealing some long lost rhythmic prehistoric world that we all know to be better or superior to the one that has been handed to us by the likes of Chopin Liszt Brahms etc etc well I don't think so. That is based on my own 'musicality that I have learned from great teachers throughout my musical / piano life allied to my own inner musicality I was born with.
None of that legacy is illustrated in laughably abysmal performances of the Beethoven sonatas some of which are recently as poor musically as it could get. Now Winters is even attempting to rewrite the rythmic aspects of Beethovens music - his attempts to sprinkle notes inégales all over these works is an abomination in my opinion - they go beyond funny as they actually ridicule the musical idea on a basic level.
I see your comments for the Op 111 yesterday and yes they are to the point but they are also absolutely bang on the money - spot on for saying so too.
I see nothing wrong in pointing out when somebody is spectacularly wrong and when their answer tends to be to ridicule their opposition as he did with you (did you show your wife that video where Winters did that ?) then they deserve taking down more than a peg or too. You probably noticed Winters telling people they "dont know what they're talking about" as opposed to the great critique and musicologist himself. For me he's a good example how to draw people into a complete unproven nonsense and make some money doing it.
For myself if people are listening to these 'performances' on Auth Sound and thinking they are getting a better idea of what the composer was trying to achieve then I'm forever baffled. When I hear "now I've known what Beethoven REALLY meant" "Oh this is how it should always have been" then God knows what they've made of this music before now? - that I find baffling.
I've 'watched' tens of thousands of happy listeners, audiences go home elated at the renditions we have known for historically over two three hundred years and no-one has complained until now !!?!?!
I don't think the great Composers obsessed that much on tempo markings but more focus on the human condition of the music and expression. Why do we have conductors if we don't need to focus on dynamics and expression. Everyone claims to know how these amazing human beings composed there music, but unless we sat and got to know them personally and heard them play we will never know. Who Beethoven to you might be entirely different to me in the way we hear his music and message.
Dr. Hall, you have my personal respect and admiration for handling this the gentleman's way. With so much animosity in 2020, it's a relief to me when people are willing to own up to their mistakes and make a sincere apology. I hope more people will take the high road the way you have in this video You have earned me as a subscriber to your channel for the future.
I see no problem with a heated discussion, and the overall incentive over tempo analysis has made many people who distanced themselves from music to come back with a renewed interest. I think there's a lot in common between Wim and you, and perhadps you guys could collaborate on something going foward.
While I do understand that some people get exagerated emotional reactions to wim videos and such, there's no need to go beyond courtesy, in the end, you guys understand what is to be a classical musician these days, and we know its not easy.
It is true that sometimes there is no better word than b......t to say that something is a bull...t. But to stop the “controversy” has been a very clever move...
no issues. I'm sure Clara Schumann also scolded Robert on Liszt or the other way around Lol
let's play more and theorize less. We all agree that early MM are just crazy fast. Just some think early metronomes were badly inaccurate while others think the reading should be in double beat. The truth is somewhere in between...
You sure you are not committing to this fallacy?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation
@@aldrichemrys That is exactly what he is doing.
This is nuts. You do not apologize for calling out something wicked.
By all means, provide counter-arguments to Winters' views, and never apologize for it. As soon as we engage in hostilities though, we separate communities and strengthen divides. Nobody wants music to turn into a "single-beat" vs "whole-beat" scenario wherein the two groups dislike each other. If ones goal was to convince whole-beat believers that single-beat is correct, we have to provide evidence and convincing arguments that explain why single-beat is the better option. Other youtube channels have been much much more negative and hostile towards whole-beat and I hopefully convinced them to approach the subject in a more peaceful manner too. At least whole-beaters are reading the evidence and coming to a conclusion, even if it's the wrong conclusion, it's great seeing many people interested in tempo.
Just my personal opinion, you shouldn’t have apologized, you have a right to your opinion. I love Wim’s channel, watch him every week. Just the same, you didn’t have to back down. You wear the testicles, not your noodle-spined wife, God bless her
Of course I can have an opinion, but it all has to do with the way the opinion is expressed. Looking back on the latest rant video, I think I expressed my opinions in the wrong fashion and put off a lot of people. My wife simply made me come to my senses and I realized I expressed my opinions in the wrong fashion. I disagree with Wim on many things and many of the performances on his channel are indeed truly awful and anti-historical, but I need to learn to express my opinions and disagreements in a more professional fashion.
@@BachScholar well keep crushing brother, i wish you all the best.
@@BachScholar Well tbh sometimes things need to said and in a way that there is no misunderstanding. Sometimes that requires strong words. You've been doing just that. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Wim Winters is a bully, anyone can see that, so as my parents taught me - you stand up to bullies you never let them do their thing. As far as I can ascertain you've 'stood up' to him rather well. I feel you could have shown your wife exactly how he operates and I think she would have said "carry on"...imo
I thought when I first saw the "Wim Winters" videos that they were a little strange. The topic seemed more suitable to an academic journal that UA-cam. I didn't even bother to watch the latest of the ilk because I'm frankly just not interested in the subject. Still love your tutorials and performances. One thing I might suggest is adding some contextual introductions to the performances.
things sometimes get heated, but we are always friends in the end!
I thought the videos we're indeed a bit out of context, but you made good points... Especially Wims stances about romantic era music and how it should be played slower are very strange. So did you actually change your opinion on this, or did you remove it out of pressure?
Hi Cory.
Thanks for the video.
It takes courage to make an apology like that. I thought your videos were way out of line, but never made any comment.
What I always thought about these videos was: there will always be different takes on everything. It does NOT mean one side is right and the other side is wrong, and it also does NOT mean one side is intelligent and the other stupid.
They are just different opinions. It's OK to disagree, but it's NOT OK to be disrespectful.
I'm really glad you had the humility to make and to publish this videos.
We have to learn to live with different (sometimes opposing) perspectives, and learn what we can from them.
Thanks. Well done.
I'm a suscriber of Wim and Cory 'cause a I love music. Both are incredible musicians. Differents points of view are always welcome.
I, for one, like the drama! LOL. But good on you for this. By the way, I'm slowly but surely working my way through Sight-Reading & Harmony, and I'm really getting a lot out of it. There's a wealth of knowledge, theory, and exercise there that will last me a very long time!
Hope you enjoy it!
I fail to understand why you feel obligated to apologize to Wim Winters. Mr. Winters advocates a system of performance and of musical thought that most professional musicians find utterly offensive. One has only to listen to his recorded performances and those of his followers to realize how utterly bizarre his so-called “theories” really are. He effectively abolishes the fast movement, promotes a spurious pseudo-musicological approach to music history by making repeated assertions that are demonstrably false, and even goes so far as to make statements about changes in the human psyche since the 18th century that are completely without foundation. While doing so, he manages to insult publicly some of the greatest pianists of our time. He claims to revolutionize Music through his half-baked “tempo journey.” He runs his channel like a religious cult and censors virtually all who disagree with him. It is certainly desirable to have comity in the musical community; but such comity must be predicated upon a certain degree of professional conduct, respect for one’s colleagues, and truthfulness. Mr. Winters is way over the line in these respects; and were UA-cam governed and mediated by professional musicians, he should never have attracted the attention he has received from frustrated, lonely amateur musicians and music-lovers in this time of cultural anomie. By all means make friends with Wim Winters and have a beer with him, if you will. I for one, despite my friendly feelings of respect for our fellow human beings, should find it difficult to sit down for a beer, with a man whose ideas threaten the very existence of Music, without choking. I do not dislike the man; but his ideas are so outrageously bad as to preclude professional discourse. I might talk to him about the weather; but that is all. Apology? For stating the obvious truth? It is Wim WInters who owes the musical community a most abject apology and retraction, before he can even hope to be taken seriously.
Addendum: If you MUST apologe for something, may I suggest that you do so for the following statement that you made some inches below, to wit: "I do know more than anyone else about Bach's tempi. I have discovered Bach's 'secret tempo code' so to speak, which nobody else but me knows about."
I've studied music extensively, rubbish. Winters proves his point when pianists have to slow down to play bars that would be impossible to play at the speed selected.
@@rexcowan9209 Your assertion that pianists have to slow down in order to play certain allegedly “unplayable” passages (according to Wim Winters) is meaningless without particularization and citations; and it is certainly no proof of Wim Winters’ ridiculous assertions. More important are the disastrous musical consequences of Winters’ tempi and his approach to music-making. Some things are not open to debate, and this is one of them. Incidentally, his musicological “evidence” is based on lies and distortions. Winters and Sanna are scammers, pure and simple; and they do damage to musical culture. Fr. Gadient is an ignorant amateur musicologist who needs to have a talk with his bishop.
@@danielwaitzman2118 ua-cam.com/video/lOW7dR-Yszc/v-deo.html
@@rexcowan9209 The passage in question is cadential: therefore ad libitum. Strict tempi do not apply. With due respect, Mr. Cowan, you are being pedantic to the nth degree. The bottom line is that “whole-beat” interpretations sound terrible, flout tempi rubrics, go against everything we know and feel about performance and music, and are utterly devoid of historical support. The use of Maelzel’s metronome is exceptionally well-documented; its “double-beat” employment is without historical evidence. Wim Winters is either a liar or a mentally-ill individual-probably both. Follow him, if you wish: but be aware that you are going against hundreds of years of tradition and hard evidence-and also insulting the intelligence of all good musicians, living and dead.
@@danielwaitzman2118 You need to tone your language down. Accusing people of lying and being mentally ill does not help your case. Perhaps you should apologise for doing this.
How much did he pay?
Thank you!!! I really love Wim Winters and I love your work too! This is great. It takes courage and humility to do this. It is GREATLY appreciated. I'm subscribed to both channels: BachScholar and AuthenticSound. Again: Thank you!!! ❤️❤️❤️
Let them go slower and keep up playing better than them.
You should not have deleted anything.
You have always been very factual and you are entitled to keep and share your opinion.
I think you’ve done an honorable thing by apologising. Usually our wives do know better! It takes a good man to do this. Kudos.
You are a decent man Cory. It is so rare to hear apologies these days. I hope Wim will forgive you, and maybe some day you can discuss the topic of the metronome use.
I’ve personally enjoyed all of your rant videos on the subject of double beat. I now know far more on the subject than I did a few weeks ago, but I can still see how some found them to be a bit too strongly worded. It’s good to be courteous, and it’s even better to be humble, but please don’t lose that righteous fire. Perhaps you could begin a Bachscholar rants video series where you continue to address controversial or topical musical subjects but in a way that you feel is more constructive?
The problem is obviously not that you called someone an idiot, but that you claim to be THE leading expert on tempo, while having no idea what you're talking about.
It's the world of the Internet. Everyone calls everyone idiots, constantly.
To lie about your credentials and claiming that Beethoven and Czerny were double beat composers (but only sometimes!) obviously will piss people off, because it's very... unprofessional and surely not good research.
How am I lying about my credentials? But I do have an idea what I am talking about.
@@BachScholar because every existing evidence shows that Czerny was single beat. And every existing evidence also shows that Beethoven used single beat. I made a new video in your honour. You can check it out 😊
And how is it THE world leading authority on tempo can't be found in any musicologist magazine? I've heard of one, but as the world leading authority, there should obviously be several...
I am not in academia, that is, I do not teach in any institutions, which is why I do not publish in musicology journals. But I do know more than anyone else about Bach's tempi. I have discovered Bach's "secret tempo code" so to speak, which nobody else but me knows about.
@@BachScholar I have discovered a path to Narnia. Only I know about it.
Your evidence is based mostly on how fast Czerny is said to have "played" the piano by contemporaries. How fast Czerny played the piano is totally irrelevant to his notational system, what is possible, what is practical and reasonable, and what is implied to pianists who follow this system.
I do not fully understand this apology - but I respect it.
The personal part: Cory Hall vs Wim Winters both claiming to be the "true" expert, yes that's sort of funny. The thoughts and beliefs of millions of musicians worldwide about music and its "true tempo" seem to be worthless if we take the words of these experts literally.
The question about the final solution of the tempo problem will stay open.
And that's a good thing!
Music is a language. It may change with time. But nobody owns it!
Not even the composers!
I'm not sure music is a language. And at the same time, I'm not sure it is not a language.
If music was a language, it would be one made of words that nobody can really understand. Or, in the best case, made of words that everybody understands differently.
So it might be a language whose words, sentences, verses, etc can mean different things to every listener or musician.
If music is a language, it is an amazing one, that is for sure.
@@daniandres3211 Yes, that's a good point! The language of music is very different from our normal languages. It's very hard to translate musical content in our every day language. Music can be very precise when it's about feelings and it's mostly unexplored how this is even working.
Respect for apologizing Cory - I sometimes dot he same thing as you did, getting heated when it's not necessary. Really appreciate your channel and best wishes to Wim as well, even though I disagree with his ideas ^^. Also to Win personally, I think I left a bit of a rude comment on your channel, won't do that again. Apologies from me too. This debate has literally 0 impact on my life and I should let people be who they are and have their own ideas. I've been around some real conspiracy channels on UA-cam, and that stuff gets nasty. This is nothing like it - trust me. Argument must be had without getting personal or insulting, and that's hard to do in practice...
His occult is very cryptic
Tremendous respect for this follow-up, it shows amazing integrity. Thank you. I would like to apologize for my own comment on that one, I could definitely have been more constructive in my feedback. This was a wonderful resolution to this, and I am happy to be able to continue enjoying the amazing work that you do. Cheers
You are brave to do so and much appreciated. All the best for you and your channel, which aroused my curiosity now.
You should draw little mohawks on the flamingos on your shirt and when people ask what they are, you can tell them they're "Punk Flamingos". Oh, and thanks for the apology.
Wow! That was awesome...i wish everyone was big enough to do things like that! Most don't have the guts! 😊
Although you may have carried it a bit too far you have absolutely NOTHING that warrants an apology. It was nice to see someone being honest on the Internet.
Why can't one express a difference of opinion... is that now unacceptable?
You just caved in to the cancel culture and cancelled yourself.
Deleting previously uploaded heartfelt videos is like tearing down a statue.
I thought it was all quite educational and interesting.
Some people are sensitive to words, others to music, the language without words. Could you publish a few more music samples and use slightly fewer words? That would clarify much more than the words you use. So if you want to attack Wim, let that be heard by a music example. Then we, listeners to your videos, know even better what you mean. This also applies, and perhaps most of all if you are opposed to others, such as Wim Winters. In the future, therefore, give your comments and objections by means of music examples. This makes it much clearer what you mean than by words. And ... an important advantage of this is: your opponents will not be offended by this! And they don't feel the need for your apologies anymore.
Remember, the first part of classical music is class.
Dr. Hall, you're an extraordinary soloist and a very talented scholar. But much better than all of that is your unknown (at least for me) humility. Your wife is a wise person. Congratulations. Keep safe. Best wishes.
Are you running out of video ideas to make?
I appreciate seeing this apology. I was one of your subscribers and for a while I was with you in your critique, but it did seem to descend into name calling and video after video on the same subject. That's why I unsubscribed. There are enough people out there already that engage in flame wars and that's not where I personally like to be with music. For me it is about relaxation, understanding and respecting different peoples' interpretation as being just as valid as one's own. We can, should and must be passionate about our craft, but not to the extent of sucking the enjoyment out of the works before us. I still avoid Wim's videos for some similar attitudes but it's good to see that perspective has prevailed on this occasion.
Don’t apologize to him. He’s doing a lot of damage to classical music. He doesn’t deserve to be part of such community.
Bless you Cory. It takes a lot of humility to publicly apologise. We'll done.
Warmest regards,
Chris
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
the words that u use were not "insults", but rude thoughts; it was ok! but cool that you feel better now; let's play some funny rags!
Nice! I was about unsubscribe from your channel because all that negativity. I even didn’t know Wim Winters. I knew from you. It takes a lot of courage do what you just did. I think we all make videos to help or inspire people. And if it’s possible, make music grow (in our possibilities) Congrats for this video and for your wife ;)
That was nice. It takes a wise man to recognize a bad step and an even wiser one to apologize.
I agree....you are not an example of bad behaviour on youtube....all the opposite...maybe you were just a little tired....your channel is awesome...this public apology proves that you are an educated and intelligent man...you are not an idiot....wish you all the best from Italy...sorry for my english...seriously your beautiful channel and your work speak for yourself...can’t wait to watch any other video from you....i’d love to see you analyze some bach chorales...again...take care..
Whether you are right doesn’t matter - it’s better to pursue a line of dialogue to discuss things in a good manner-no matter which side you’re on
Hilarious!
Its so nice to see this kind of behavior about nice people, Congratulations BachScholar for your atitude to have the courage to express your real fellings in this video.
Hello from Brazil :)
thanks for be my teacher :D 36 years (10 mouths of study by myself) Thanks for everything :)
I appreciate your attitude, Dr. Cory.
By the way it's pronounced Bim, like Bill, but with an N at the end and you forgot to apologize with Czerny.
Nice to hear an apology.
Czerny is dead
@@walkernick86 that's not excuse for disrespect him
Thank you.
Yes UA-cam is for expressing and sharing. If it's not seemly to go in public or a school to rant, people in generally should not do so on social media. Rant or otherwise. Media are powerful tools, cuts like a knife, use it wisely.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing (the personal attack) is in fact all too common. In the field of logical argumentation, it is called an “ad hominem” attack, meaning that not the argument, but the person is attacked. This is also part of a series of “logical fallacies”. Only the most educated minds are capable of transcending the personal, and attacking the argument with solid logic and facts (usually philosophers, i.e. a very, very tiny minority of people). I have certainly made similar mistakes, but I have now fixed these weaknesses. But it took some work. Having said all that, it also takes a less common mind to readily admit to errors in judgement, and this always deserves respect. As Seneca wrote: “To err is human, and our mind has many faults, but this can be improved”. The Great Courses have a course called “The Art Of Debate”, I really recommend it to anyone who wants to become a capable debater. I think everybody would benefit greatly. And one who knows he can attack an argument with logic and facts, will feel a lot calmer, too. It’s like martial arts for the mind....once you know you can defend yourself well, you will feel more at peace. :)
Don't get sad on this Cory. I am sure Win Winters, and all the people can understand your tecnical disagreement, and that at some point it went out of the desirable way, but that's all. It's human and I'm sure you have everyone's forgiveness. A big hug, (for you and Win, both :-)
I'm glad things settled. We can all have disagreements without straw man arguments.
The term "straw man" is far overused nowadays. People use it without even knowing what it means. Never did I or Wim engage in "straw man" arguments. Calling someone a "cult leader" or an "idiot" are not straw man arguments, neither is claiming such and such tempo is incorrect because of whatever reason.
Very manly of you 👏👏👍
Yes please. It's just a theory. Don't put anyone on the stake, just because they believe in something that we think is stupid. Let people believe in what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone. Let it be. I said that earlier as well Dr. Cory.
Nice shirt!
Great video - great apology. It takes a REAL MAN to make an apology. Bravo. Please go check out my Rachmaninov g in prelude video - were the slow section was inspired by your hand positioning tutorial!
Oh shit, the plot thickens
Thank you Dr.Cory for this. Very few people have the maturity to do what you have done with this video. You have showed out there what a giant man you are. Proud of being part of your community! Wim and I hope to see you soon in Belgium for a beer and an italian pizza!
Italian pizza?
@@jonathanp935 of course, the best!
@@albertosanna4539 don't get me hungry Alberto 😂
Mmmm... We have great pizza here in Portugal... Of the thin base kind. I think It'd be difficult to impress me 😂
@@surgeeo1406 ooh, might have to taste that
Bene, bravo!
I think if you kept your pony tail this would have not turned out like this. What a change over the years. I did not see your video just sad you ran into something which then made you do this humhum apology😂🤢
Great pianist and great man
We all have things in our past to be ashamed of. They don't matter and no one should hold grudges. I'm glad you won't be letting yourself be consumed by online toxicity.
I forgive you. Slate's as it was. Big hug! Resud'b. God bless you. 😁