Ohhh! The lit lamps part for the railroad range is silly. Märklin sells locos with lamps for about 60£ and if Märklin is capable of this (they’re already far overpriced) then every single manufacturer needs to light up they’re locos.
Many thanks for this Hylton - a really interesting and thorough investigation. There certainly is some disparity around what we can get for our money 👍🚂
A very good opinion piece, Hylton, dealing with a hot topic. Totally with you regarding DCC Ready. There really is no excuse for not having this facility on all locos now. RR+ locos should have discernable livery enhancements from RR models. Pretty much agree with everything else, too. I would add "All / more than just driving wheel" pickups and would split "fitted cab crew/extras" into "separately fitted parts", such as smokebox door darts, safety grab rails & cab handrails, whistles and safety valves (for all models other than RR/RR+), and "accessories", such as cab crew, front buffer beam detai, etc. Finally, I would suggest a 4th category to sit between RR and Premium, called "Standard". The price points would need some adjusting, but any loco costing more than £100 should have various separately fitted parts and accessories. Keep up the good work!
Hello Stephen, thanks so much for watching, yes perhaps a little out my usual wheelhouse of content but thought I would give it a go. Agreed, I think the differences between RR and RR+ really do need to be a little more discernable too. Some good builds you've added here, I definitely missed an opportunity on the all wheel pick ups, although in many regards, that should be a standard across the board no? Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and as always, watching. Keep well sir. Hylt
Fun video. Interestingly most new continental models do tick all of those boxes, although the pricing of those is through the roof compared to British models.
Great video Hylt. Hornby and Bachmann especially should be taking notes as they are the major culprits on selling old tooling models for new tooling prices. Great job bringing this all to the forefront.
Brilliant video about this topic. It always fascinates me how the english model railroad manufacturers are about 50 years behind the mainland european and US model suppliers. They are still Lima 70's and 80's yet they had lighting.....How can lit lamps be a question in 2024? Come on. And the UK market is huge, yet the modellers are taken for granted. Brilliant, keep it up. I hope you start a constructive discussion thru this.
Thank you Rinke. Yes I do believe there should be a more standardised approach personally, it makes sense that we should get better tech for what we pay honestly.
As an American collector I never could understand why brands like Hornby don’t have lights standard on their steam locomotives. Even the cheapest model here in the states (Bachmann 0-6-0) for $90 has lights and smoke.
Hello Michael, my thoughts exactly on this, totally agree with you. A lot of people seem to think it unnecessary given British lamps, but I think with the option to interchange them it should be a staple. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep well. Hylt
Interesting shopping list. No doubt other's opinions as to what should be included at various prices will vary. As a steam era modeller, I view smoke as a gimmick and have never been worried that models tend to come without that feature. Also lighting. Great on diesels, not so much on steamers, as the placement needs to be interchangeable so that your local stopping goods train isn't running around with express passenger lighting. I do agree that firebox flicker should be standard on higher end models. The most important thing for me is that the loco is well detailed and that it's a good runner. Good running usually imples all wheel pickup and separate wheel bearings, neither of which are on your list.
Whats it worth? Depends who's buying it really, depends what they really want, with none existent competition in most classes of loco what else you gonna do? The pain on the wallet for these things is also relative to the income we have and there's plenty of people to whom it isn't at all painful even at that price as there always has been. We get the crumbs they get the loaf it's just the way it is. As to fluctuating prices, or price disparity between manufacturers, there's agreements in place behind the scenes that play into this, competition between factories, relationships that have to be maintained to keep the industry rolling, also extra costs incurred for being more ethical in sourcing. Some manufacturers pay out extra to have their people in the factory keeping an eye on worker conditions and safety and work to reduce any mistreatment which has hsitorically been a huge problem in the toy industry, others are a bit more murky when it comes to this. I'd kinda rather pay a bit more for something and know it's not assembled by someone pulling an huge working week for very tiny pay, I like model railways but really not enough to hurt another human for them.
You make a really good point here, in no way should the cost of someone own humanity come for the sake of someone else's hobby. It's kind of scary if you really start pulling back the layers.
@@Proper_Chuffed from a business stand point as well it would be suicidal of hornby particularly to not invest into making sure the factories they use are above board across the multiple high profile brands they own. They're not huge in the grand scheme of companies but they're big enough and in the public eye enough to be on the radar of people that would investigate these things and any scandal would be very bad news. The newer manufacturers are tiny, very specific to model railways, unlikely to draw much attention. Much less to lose. And suprisingly reluctant to talk about what steps if any they take in this regard all while offering significantly cheaper products. Call me silly but that alone should raise some red flags in terms of the supply chain. This is a very opaque industry and that should probably change(within reason) so we can be a bit more sure that our little toys aren't causing harm.
@@azuma892 and in your statement lies the crux of the issue, "most" i.e. not all 🤣way to acknowledge the very problem I speak of while taking a dismissive tone towards it. If that just bypasses and pardons off the issue then hey, most hornby models are fine. Problems all solved heh. 😌
Excellent video Hylton. I didnt see the community thing, personally I would have had these categories: £0 - 75 Cheap/second-hand £75 - 125 railroad £125 - 200 standard £200 - 300 premium £300+ collector categories. I dont expect much from cheap/second-hand stuff - you pays yer money and yer takes yer pick. Railroad can be re-tooled/old toolings (nothing necessary apart from DCC ready), Standard can have a variety of newer features, Premium must have most modern features amd Collectors has to have everything plus innovations. A bit like the car market, if you want a Dacia then it's basic but functions efficiently, a Hybrid Porsche must have all the toys. That's my tuppenyworth anyway - Cheers mate :)
Hey Chris, Good thinking there on the additional categories. I agree with the additional line of 'Standard' for the most part, my reasoning behind not including the second hand/cheap market was mostly because its more targeted at the manufacturers and their standards, if that makes sense? Thanks for sharing your thoughts here bro, appreciate it! Hylt
Another great video Hylt. Bringing this topic to the forefront is something that needs to be done I feel. We've seen that price disparity for "worth", "quality" and "quantity" is changing a lot lately, with some manufacturers able to provide top of the range models at mid-high prices instead of high-OTT. Will be interesting to see how the future goes with this. Do you plan on incorporating this table/a style of it into your first impressions videos? Keep it up dude!
Thanks James! Appreciate your thoughts here bro, certainly will be keeping an eye out in the coming years as to where these standards shift. By no means is this the gold standard, I would just like a bit more consistency. I may think of doing that, not sure yet. But a good idea. Thanks bro, Hylt
We should require NEM pockets with slimline tension lock couplings on all levels, and the dynamic swivel type or separate magnetic couplings at premium and better.
I have mixed thoughts on DCC sound (or DCC in general, for that matter). It's not absolutely necessary, especially if you want to get into model railways while staying on a tight budget. But on the other hand, I can understand why it might appeal to those who can afford it. In any case, good value for money is still very important in this hobby. That's why I often buy models from British retailers, because the domestic shops here in New Zealand often have a very limited range of products, and mostly just Hornby stuff at that. It doesn't help that they're often significantly more expensive than British imports (case in point; the model shop in my city currently has a new Hornby LNER P2 on offer for $585.00 - NZD, far beyond what I consider to be a reasonable price). A lot of the engines in my collection are ones that I would never find in a domestic shop, such as Heljan's Class 128 parcels railcar. As for what features I think are the most important in modern models, my money's on sprung buffers, firebox flicker effect and die-cast boiler + running plate. I don't like models that just feel cheap, nasty and plasticky (case in point; Hornby's model of the LNER A2/2 class, as much as I like Thompson Pacifics).
Hey mate, Thanks for swinging by again, appreciate it and your insights on this. Couldn't agree with you more on value for money. I wish I had that kind of offering locally, but agree with you on your reasoning. Sprung buffers are frankly something I dont care too much for, firebox flicker effects, and die-cast boilers and running plates really add to the realism and quality of a model. I completely agree about the importance of avoiding models that feel cheap and plasticky. It’s much more satisfying to handle a model that feels solid and well-made.
Yes indeed. I've remembered my LMS Turbomotive model and how, due to the die-cast boiler, she's of a much higher quality than the Thompson Pacific. Three other Hornby models I've got (namely the LSWR '700', LNER 'B12' and 'J15' classes) also have die-cast boilers. I'd like to see that feature more often on newer releases.
Great Video, I'm thinking all very similar lines to other comments and your breakdown of what should be in each range. My only addition would be all Locomotive should have diecast running plates, Inc railroad. After all Smokey Joe/Caledonian Pug has had a diecast running plate for the last 30 years..?
That’s a fair point Mark, I mean why not? Surely the process of doing so wouldn’t be a bank breaking exercise? Thank you for watching, I truly appreciate it and for sharing your thoughts
Good video. I think it would be helpful to include a line for flywheel, as this adds to realism and controlability. I don't know if altering the acceleration/deceleration settings on DCC would fully compensate for not having one.
I think that's a good point, my point around detailing is that if you offer it, it should be able to run with it fitted. The care required is then totally up to the owner. But I get what you are saying.
Just ask anyone who’s not into model railways if a given loco is worth hundreds and you’ll get your answer. If I’m paying more than 150 GBP, I want lights and plenty of die cast or I’m not paying.
@@zepheris_ I think Hornby are rip off merchants. Not had a Dapol yet. Accurascale are great value. I’m actually a fan of Bachmann too, but you’re right, a lot of their stuff is hard to get.
An aspect over which I hope I am wrong concerns the increasing use of metal. Now, do not get be wrong, this is a good thing providing we do not start getting more Mazak degradation problems. In the last 20 years there have been quite a few occurrences. I know some very old Trix and Dinky models (pre-1960s) sometimes had problems and some 1970s Lima locos as well, but Hornby and Heljan have had a number of incidences in the early 2000s (2004-2010 - Class 31s, T9s, etc.). I just hope the variable standards with motors do not show themselves with all this metalwork. I do not want to think about £300+ models cracking apart, not that I have any!
A very good point here Jeffrey, something I didnt really account for in this video. I would hope we're at a point where premium models wont be disintegrating... ever! 🥲
I’ve had two hornby railroad range locos one was a steam train, the tornado peppercorn tts sound, it was really good and as a newcomer it did me proud. I then got a HST pack that I think was around £140 this model had traction tyres, was utter diabolical quality, and luckily for me died within a few hours use so got returned. Had the HST been my first loco it would have put me off the hobby as a newcomer. It ran like a cheap toy, jerky at lower speeds and was pure pure shite! Traction tyres in this days and age on new models 🤷🏻♂️ For this reason I wouldn’t entertain another railroad, I assume the tornado peppercorn was more of a one off decent model and the HST is the standard. Top video as always hylt, your videos aren’t railroad range are they 🤩🤩🤩👌
Ahh class sign off there Dave! Haha I certainly try, though not sure I always succeed. There seems to be a massive disparity in that range too, which makes no sense, surely we should be looking at some kind of consistency? Personally railroad is not my speed, and as you say, it can be a total miss. But I do think those that opt for that offering should at least be serviced by some decent running locos? Thanks man, always appreciate you watching.
I hope the industry doesn't adopt the new loco and tender connection because it's a friction fit and will be a liability like we have already seen on the new black five the connection isn't good and the electronics are not connecting well either just keep it as the physical single bar and have a separate plug for wires.
I for one like it, but I do think a lot more R&D needs to go into it. If it's causing problems now, it needs to be pulled and worked on before it continues into production. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Joseph. Cheers, Hylt
I think you are pretty much spot on Hylt and the disparity between production of the different loco's and prices makes no sense when you appear to get less for more money! Also why pay premium prices for a loco with lots of added bits that once added mean you cannot run the loco on your home layout! All seems a little strange to me.
Hey Tony, thanks for that, yeah actually I was watching Craig over at @ironhorserailways and he made a great vid about just that thing. It makes no sense to release detail parts that cannot stand up to running conditions. My Bachmann 37 and 47 are prime examples of this and it's infuriating. Cheers and thanks for dropping by as always. Hylt
There is a hell of a lot of work goes into any model, steam or diesel, from concept, project plan, research, tooling, components, labour costs, prototyping, engineering samples, painted samples, production, packaging, marketing, shipping, distribution, all needs costing and sometimes I think a lot of people don't appreciate the amount of work involved. Steam as for any model, is what you are prepared to pay for, whether railroad (Lima), or top level, and how close to prototyping you want to model. Steam has the same problem as diesel with Steam and smoke, which is really difficult at 1/76 scale to get realistic enough to be prototypical. As with any product it's what you are prepared to pay. Very subjective.
I completely agree with you on that, I certainly don’t want to take away from the work involved, I think more than anything the disparity and differences in different levels is more of the highlight here 😊 but you make some brilliant points.
I agree, and to be honest anyone who owns an Accurascale model and looks at the astonishing number of parts make that model, I am amazed they sell them at their price points, which makes me wonder why for example Bachmann charge what they do for a comparable model, and Hornby for the same price but a much lesser spec model, and I can only wonder what the support costs are to maintain a large back catalogue of active models and does this effect the likes of Bachmann and Hornby, otherwise their prices are hard to fathom
It is difficult to work out some aspects of the pricing policy of some manufacturers. One thing that troubles me is the haphazard quality control that afflicts some new models. Also, why are the motors of some recent models so unreliable or underwhelming and yet others are fine?
Completely agree with your Jeffrey, it's definitely something that is plaguing some of the main companies. We really need more of a standard, with quality, and quality control. Cheers, Hylt
@@Proper_Chuffed Fundamentally, I am more interested in how well a model runs than what its technical specification is. I recall Sam's Trains having problems with engines such as the new Hornby 2-10-0 not having enough torque to negotiate 2nd radius curves. Not all are like it though, as confirmed by That Model Railway Guy. Enough name dropping though!
This is a highly commendable exercise in developing some objective criteria. I find the constant moaning about prices in online fora very tedious and think it's mostly because the hobby is dominated by old men - and they often moan about the price of everything. "Back in my day" etc It also frustrates me that so many people assume that the features of the product determine the price. They don't. The main factor is establishing a price the market will bear and maximising revenue accordingly. The manufacturers aren't charities - their duty to their shareholders is to maximise profit.
Thanks for that mate, I appreciate it, I know it might not be a water tight solution but I am doing my best to sort of rationalise it all. I know there are a myriad of factors that probably throw a wrench in the formula, but as a baseline, even just for myself, I think it kind of makes sense. Cheers for watching. Hylt
@@crewelocoman5b161 note the "often". Not all old men do. Generally the more self aware ones don't. I plan on following my Grandad's example - recognising progress and optimistic until his dying day.
at over 220 quid i expect no seams on the boiler, turned brass whistle/safety valves, metal handrails straight n lvl running board (i'm lookin at you Hornby Black 5 )
@@crewelocoman5b161 not like the seams on the models there isn't otherwise those seams n gaps will be upto 6-7 inches tall or wide even more on some of the poorer models
@@crewelocoman5b161 I bet you would be happy paying over 200k for a Rolls Royce with a engine that doesn't work as well as it should What about 6-7 inch gaps in the doors boot n hood seams as well as 6-7 inch weld seams If not then stfu n gtf off the forum
Pretty good assessment. Except DCC ready in the cheaper railroad range is not required. Keep the costs down to get kids into the Hobby. Personally I think that DCC is a specialty and not applicable to everyone. I run vintage DC so for me wasting money and space in the mechanics of a loco is an annoyance. I know that the DCC community will disagree, but we need a cost effective range to draw the younger generation into the hobby. To me Hornby is too expensive these days anyway. There are a lot of families struggling to make ends meet and Hornby has cut them out of the running for the Hobby. Happy Modelling
I’ve been to exhibitions where people are generally enthused but have watched them go to a trader and then they find out how much the models they’ve been watching actually cost . There is incredulity at the amounts being charged and is a complete turn off to many .
Hello Rusell, thank you for sharing mate, can't speak to that myself but I can imagine the exorbitant prices are totally off putting for most people these days.
Sprung buffers are a totally pointless feature when you consider that 99+% of people use automatic couplings so buffers never make contact (often remaining a scale 2' or more apart!), so you'll never see them function as intended. If they were 'essential', why not have them on coaches and wagons too? With close-couplers, buffers that come realistically close will cause derailments on most model railway curves anyway, even if they are sprung.
Hey man, thanks for dropping in and watching. I actually agree with you on this for the most part. The reason I would classify them as essential in the premium offering is that they’ve become something of a standard. While I personally don’t see any point in them, I can understand folks who would put that as their standard. Does that make sense? 😊 cheers, Hylt
Are we getting value............In general I say no...........But it seams to be the same manufactures doing this. Bachmann and Hornby are the worst by far.......With these two it's like wash rinse and repeat. If you take the time to contact them it's always thanks for your input we will look into it. I think your right on with your tables. My thing is the company needs to get the fundamental down first. Not rush the loco out the door to meet a dead line.
Hey there, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, totally hear you on what you're saying. In some cases, production almost seems way too delayed too, on the flip side. Agreed though, get the fundamentals down more than anything else. Cheers, Hylt
The only reason you can get advanced toys like this under 500 is the fact that they are produced in China by hords of young girls working 9 to 9, 6 days a week, sleeping in dorms owned by the factory.
Wished that the steam locos had lights the only one that in recent memory was the hogwars loco which did look bad however if you take a lamp and drill a hole in it and place it in the lamp holder it looks better.
@@Proper_Chuffed Err no! Steam locomotives did not have "lights", they had lamps for train coding purposes which were lit only for night time operation. After WW 2 some new LNE, LMS and SR steam locos were fitted with electric lighting but were soon abandoned as they couldn't be seen during daylight hours. The BR Standards were never fitted with electric lights. On model steam locos they look ridiculous, diesels etc, absolutely fine. Check out archive sources, there's plenty of it.
@@crewelocoman5b161 my mistake on the wording there. I hear what you’re saying, you certainly know a great deal about this so I would defer to you. My point is the optional extra to fit lit lamps really should be more commonplace, would you agree with that? 😊
@@Proper_Chuffed All I'd say is that the clamour for more and more detail is fine for those that want it, presumably because it fulfills a notion of accuracy/realism but in this case it simply doesn't. Steam locomotives never ran with "lights" except at night. Springside produce a range of scale loco and tail lamps (LNER, LMS, GWR, SR, BR) with jewelled cut glass reflectors which are much more accurate than those that come installed on the latest models.
If you want to thrive children let the lights lit. A diecast driving plate might be a question of durability especially for kids. A diecast housing might give a loco overweight; I do not think that every track system really stands heavy rolling stock. More important is a maintenance friendly design easy to to open without breaking something. I never understood what's about sprung buffers - they are technically meaningless for the model, but make it more expensive without even making them more realistic. In Germany they are absolutely rare unless we are talking about scales 0, 1 or bigger. Five pole motors are a consequence of questionable design decisions made before; there are elderly three pole locos running more smoothly than its modern counterparts, both digitalized. A well designed ringfield motor without any worm gear outperforms many modern drivetrains. Five pole motors do not help when gears of low quality are used for the drivetrain.
Hello Lars! I actually might change my opinion there on that, perhaps railroad pricing really should have lighting, it makes sense what you see. A lot more appealing to little ones. I completely agree on the sprung buffers too, absolute nonsense and I've never seen the point! Thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this, it means a lot to me sir! Cheers, Hylt
For me I don't care for all the "bells and whistles" that comes with certain models for I want reliable running and good haulage power. But also models that aren't a nightmare to take apart and service. They've made models in steam outline that are really complicated especially on the electrical side. I hate to say it but the Chinese made models have electrics that don't last the years. Many a repair person has to place solder on pick up tabs so that there's good electrical contact to the motor. Also the mechanisms are often cheap with Hornby's double gear wheel which is between the worm gear and the gear on an axle fracturing with age and often a replacement is not available. If that gear fractures then the motor turns but the model doesn't move and with no replacement available it either consigns a model to the rubbish or becoming just a permanent display item.
Hello :) Thanks so much for watching AP, I really appreciate it. I totally hear you about the bells and whistles being a bit too much to make servicing and such a veritable nightmare. I tried to approach this from a modern standpoint as to what we expect at certain price points. I.e, all the bells and whistles! :P But I totally hear what you are saying. Thank you for watching. Hylt
Let me put some context to my answer I find sprung buffers pointless in oo gauge. Metal un sprung yes Every new model should have full cab details and flicking fire box
I beg to disagree, UK steam locos are different in that they have changing lamp codes, the lamp changing solution on Hornby's Black Five is quite troublesome and some people have said the lamps are oversized. I think supplying cosmetic unlit lamps will be better.
Correct. Unlike diesels steam locomotives never had lit lamps; only at night were they lit. After WW 2 electric lighting was tried out on some new locos (LNE, LMS, and SR) but abandoned as they couldn't be seen in daylight. The BR Standards were never fitted with them. BTW, Hornby used to produce a 'Super Detail Pack' which included some decent lamps and discs. Apart from that Springside make a very good range of lamps, BR, LMS, LNER, and SR (yes they were all different!) with jewelled cut glass in them which does give a bit of reflection and red tail lamps also with cut glass. Steam models with electric lights look ridiculous.
I appreciate that. This is exactly the kind of discussion I want to have :) I would say with a more well engineered tooling for this lamp switching, it should indeed be a standard though. I am basing this purely on what I see other markets doing. We should have that option, if we cant to run without lamps, great, but that option should be there. Hylt
When it comes to lamps being pre-fitted, i don't want them. if you want operational realism on your layout you can not have lamps at both ends of the loco when it is pulling a train. the lamps demark the start and end of a train. i will not be buying the new Hornby black 5 for this reason.
No..A friend of mine worked for a certain model company and he said that they where getting new loco,s for £32 delivered from china ,and selling them for 3 times that price then, Now the Chinese have caught on and are charging about £50-£60 per loco ,and the model companies here are charging rip off prices.... I wonder who gets all the profits.
Thats about what you'd expect with any business. Plus saying they sell it on for 3 times the price is maybe a bit disingenuous, the RRP may be £96 on something they get for £32 but the wholesale price they charge to retailers is somewhere between the two and even with direct sales they're still covering the costs of overheads on offering direct sales to begin with. The streets of Margate are not paved with gold and aren't likely to be any time soon on the back of this industry 😅
@@Proper_Chuffed yeah but think of it like a cafe, they pay say $5 for a bag of coffee, they sell a cup of coffee for $5. If that bag makes 100 cups they've got $500. Out of that $500 they have to pay rent in most cases or a mortgage, power, put some aside for equipment needs, wages... then what's left is profit. From personal experience in this and other lines of work the profit is not huge and I think we are really not understanding that as a hobby. Even if it costs £300 the profit margin isn't all that per loco sold compared to the costs of doing business especially employing a design team in the UK, running offices in the UK which has been subject to the self same energy price hikes and so on that constitute the cost of living crisis. Likewise there's been no real let up in wages in china going up(about doubled on average over the last 10 years) If we look at it rationally these prices are really not that much of a suprise. If we look using publically available evidence we can also see some hints of where others are making savings to enable a lower price. Accurscale last I looked had no offices to heat, no rent to pay for the business beyond paying a provider of a mail box in Covent garden in london to register the company at and they all seem to work from home basically. They have said through one of the staff on RMweb that they see themselves as more operating like a tech company than a normal model manufacturer and I can see what they're saying they seem to subcontract a lot of functions others do in house which means cheaper models but also means less steady jobs going as a result of their activities and more gig economy shenanigans, there's no free lunches and not to be all woke or anything but we bemoan hornby moving manufacturing out the UK but then lapped up the cheap models we got as a result... what I've explained above is just the next logical step but here we are again lapping it up until we see the hubris in 20 years when there's even less steady jobs in the industry. Again, probably woke nonsense but ah well 🤣
Sorry Hylt, I could not disagree more strongly about the Hornby Railroad range! Utter junk, complete rubbish. I wouldn't even buy one for someone I hate! A flimsy plastic chassis with a single tower fitted motor propelling only two axles in only one of the bogies and needing traction tyres to grip (these leave a horrid track residue), not much pulling power, no directional lighting, no internal lighting and only average body detail at best! Buy a nearly new (secondhand or new other) Bachmann loco, you know, a proper model, for the same price or even less and it will perform well, have great features and details and will last! All models locos should be full featured with sound and lights as standard, no exceptions! It's dirt cheap for the manufacturers to do. They just excessively profiteer because they can. Who are the fools? Are most railway locos overpriced generally? Absolutely. All the new model railway items are twice the price of what is reasonable/justifiable. My advise; Only buy when the retailers offer substantial discounts, 35% - 50%, otherwise if you pay full price they will keep charging more and more. I guarantee that if people stop paying it, they will stop charging it! Regards Julian
No don’t apologize Julian, I’m grateful, this is exactly what I was hoping for, I feel I have a lot still to learn and this is a fantastic example of what I’m trying to achieve 😊 I am super glad you spoke up about it. I had to pick my words fairly carefully here and still frankly, don’t know enough as much as other folks do when it comes to costing or stuff like sound, but certainly would think lights a cheap option? 🤷♂️ thanks for sharing mate. Some great points here. Hylt
Many thanks for this Hylton - a really interesting and thorough investigation. There certainly is some disparity around what we can get for our money 👍🚂
Thank you so much, it's a little out of my wheelhouse but something different and hope it maybe helps you as much as it does me on a personal level when trying to value something correctly when making a purchase. Thanks for watching!
Ohhh! The lit lamps part for the railroad range is silly. Märklin sells locos with lamps for about 60£ and if Märklin is capable of this (they’re already far overpriced) then every single manufacturer needs to light up they’re locos.
Many thanks for this Hylton - a really interesting and thorough investigation. There certainly is some disparity around what we can get for our money 👍🚂
A very good opinion piece, Hylton, dealing with a hot topic. Totally with you regarding DCC Ready. There really is no excuse for not having this facility on all locos now. RR+ locos should have discernable livery enhancements from RR models.
Pretty much agree with everything else, too. I would add "All / more than just driving wheel" pickups and would split "fitted cab crew/extras" into "separately fitted parts", such as smokebox door darts, safety grab rails & cab handrails, whistles and safety valves (for all models other than RR/RR+), and "accessories", such as cab crew, front buffer beam detai, etc.
Finally, I would suggest a 4th category to sit between RR and Premium, called "Standard". The price points would need some adjusting, but any loco costing more than £100 should have various separately fitted parts and accessories.
Keep up the good work!
Hello Stephen, thanks so much for watching, yes perhaps a little out my usual wheelhouse of content but thought I would give it a go. Agreed, I think the differences between RR and RR+ really do need to be a little more discernable too.
Some good builds you've added here, I definitely missed an opportunity on the all wheel pick ups, although in many regards, that should be a standard across the board no?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and as always, watching. Keep well sir. Hylt
Fun video. Interestingly most new continental models do tick all of those boxes, although the pricing of those is through the roof compared to British models.
Great video Hylt. Hornby and Bachmann especially should be taking notes as they are the major culprits on selling old tooling models for new tooling prices. Great job bringing this all to the forefront.
Thanks Rob. Appreciate your thoughts on this mate, certainly some food for thought, as poorly worded as I might have made it :P
Brilliant video about this topic. It always fascinates me how the english model railroad manufacturers are about 50 years behind the mainland european and US model suppliers. They are still Lima 70's and 80's yet they had lighting.....How can lit lamps be a question in 2024? Come on. And the UK market is huge, yet the modellers are taken for granted. Brilliant, keep it up. I hope you start a constructive discussion thru this.
Thank you Rinke. Yes I do believe there should be a more standardised approach personally, it makes sense that we should get better tech for what we pay honestly.
As an American collector I never could understand why brands like Hornby don’t have lights standard on their steam locomotives. Even the cheapest model here in the states (Bachmann 0-6-0) for $90 has lights and smoke.
Hello Michael, my thoughts exactly on this, totally agree with you. A lot of people seem to think it unnecessary given British lamps, but I think with the option to interchange them it should be a staple. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep well. Hylt
Interesting shopping list. No doubt other's opinions as to what should be included at various prices will vary. As a steam era modeller, I view smoke as a gimmick and have never been worried that models tend to come without that feature. Also lighting. Great on diesels, not so much on steamers, as the placement needs to be interchangeable so that your local stopping goods train isn't running around with express passenger lighting. I do agree that firebox flicker should be standard on higher end models. The most important thing for me is that the loco is well detailed and that it's a good runner. Good running usually imples all wheel pickup and separate wheel bearings, neither of which are on your list.
Whats it worth? Depends who's buying it really, depends what they really want, with none existent competition in most classes of loco what else you gonna do?
The pain on the wallet for these things is also relative to the income we have and there's plenty of people to whom it isn't at all painful even at that price as there always has been.
We get the crumbs they get the loaf it's just the way it is.
As to fluctuating prices, or price disparity between manufacturers, there's agreements in place behind the scenes that play into this, competition between factories, relationships that have to be maintained to keep the industry rolling, also extra costs incurred for being more ethical in sourcing. Some manufacturers pay out extra to have their people in the factory keeping an eye on worker conditions and safety and work to reduce any mistreatment which has hsitorically been a huge problem in the toy industry, others are a bit more murky when it comes to this. I'd kinda rather pay a bit more for something and know it's not assembled by someone pulling an huge working week for very tiny pay, I like model railways but really not enough to hurt another human for them.
You make a really good point here, in no way should the cost of someone own humanity come for the sake of someone else's hobby. It's kind of scary if you really start pulling back the layers.
@@Proper_Chuffed from a business stand point as well it would be suicidal of hornby particularly to not invest into making sure the factories they use are above board across the multiple high profile brands they own. They're not huge in the grand scheme of companies but they're big enough and in the public eye enough to be on the radar of people that would investigate these things and any scandal would be very bad news. The newer manufacturers are tiny, very specific to model railways, unlikely to draw much attention. Much less to lose. And suprisingly reluctant to talk about what steps if any they take in this regard all while offering significantly cheaper products. Call me silly but that alone should raise some red flags in terms of the supply chain.
This is a very opaque industry and that should probably change(within reason) so we can be a bit more sure that our little toys aren't causing harm.
Jeez, most model train factories treat their workers fine...
@@azuma892 and in your statement lies the crux of the issue, "most" i.e. not all 🤣way to acknowledge the very problem I speak of while taking a dismissive tone towards it.
If that just bypasses and pardons off the issue then hey, most hornby models are fine. Problems all solved heh. 😌
Excellent video Hylton.
I didnt see the community thing, personally I would have had these categories:
£0 - 75 Cheap/second-hand
£75 - 125 railroad
£125 - 200 standard
£200 - 300 premium
£300+ collector
categories.
I dont expect much from cheap/second-hand stuff - you pays yer money and yer takes yer pick.
Railroad can be re-tooled/old toolings (nothing necessary apart from DCC ready), Standard can have a variety of newer features, Premium must have most modern features amd Collectors has to have everything plus innovations.
A bit like the car market, if you want a Dacia then it's basic but functions efficiently, a Hybrid Porsche must have all the toys.
That's my tuppenyworth anyway - Cheers mate :)
Hey Chris,
Good thinking there on the additional categories. I agree with the additional line of 'Standard' for the most part, my reasoning behind not including the second hand/cheap market was mostly because its more targeted at the manufacturers and their standards, if that makes sense?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here bro, appreciate it!
Hylt
Another great video Hylt. Bringing this topic to the forefront is something that needs to be done I feel. We've seen that price disparity for "worth", "quality" and "quantity" is changing a lot lately, with some manufacturers able to provide top of the range models at mid-high prices instead of high-OTT. Will be interesting to see how the future goes with this.
Do you plan on incorporating this table/a style of it into your first impressions videos?
Keep it up dude!
Thanks James!
Appreciate your thoughts here bro, certainly will be keeping an eye out in the coming years as to where these standards shift. By no means is this the gold standard, I would just like a bit more consistency. I may think of doing that, not sure yet. But a good idea.
Thanks bro, Hylt
We should require NEM pockets with slimline tension lock couplings on all levels, and the dynamic swivel type or separate magnetic couplings at premium and better.
Agreed.
Agreed. Spot on.
Thank you ☺️ Hylt
I have mixed thoughts on DCC sound (or DCC in general, for that matter). It's not absolutely necessary, especially if you want to get into model railways while staying on a tight budget. But on the other hand, I can understand why it might appeal to those who can afford it.
In any case, good value for money is still very important in this hobby. That's why I often buy models from British retailers, because the domestic shops here in New Zealand often have a very limited range of products, and mostly just Hornby stuff at that. It doesn't help that they're often significantly more expensive than British imports (case in point; the model shop in my city currently has a new Hornby LNER P2 on offer for $585.00 - NZD, far beyond what I consider to be a reasonable price). A lot of the engines in my collection are ones that I would never find in a domestic shop, such as Heljan's Class 128 parcels railcar.
As for what features I think are the most important in modern models, my money's on sprung buffers, firebox flicker effect and die-cast boiler + running plate. I don't like models that just feel cheap, nasty and plasticky (case in point; Hornby's model of the LNER A2/2 class, as much as I like Thompson Pacifics).
Hey mate,
Thanks for swinging by again, appreciate it and your insights on this. Couldn't agree with you more on value for money. I wish I had that kind of offering locally, but agree with you on your reasoning.
Sprung buffers are frankly something I dont care too much for, firebox flicker effects, and die-cast boilers and running plates really add to the realism and quality of a model. I completely agree about the importance of avoiding models that feel cheap and plasticky. It’s much more satisfying to handle a model that feels solid and well-made.
Yes indeed. I've remembered my LMS Turbomotive model and how, due to the die-cast boiler, she's of a much higher quality than the Thompson Pacific. Three other Hornby models I've got (namely the LSWR '700', LNER 'B12' and 'J15' classes) also have die-cast boilers. I'd like to see that feature more often on newer releases.
Great Video, I'm thinking all very similar lines to other comments and your breakdown of what should be in each range. My only addition would be all Locomotive should have diecast running plates, Inc railroad. After all Smokey Joe/Caledonian Pug has had a diecast running plate for the last 30 years..?
That’s a fair point Mark, I mean why not? Surely the process of doing so wouldn’t be a bank breaking exercise? Thank you for watching, I truly appreciate it and for sharing your thoughts
Good video. I think it would be helpful to include a line for flywheel, as this adds to realism and controlability. I don't know if altering the acceleration/deceleration settings on DCC would fully compensate for not having one.
Good point there Clive, I didnt want to make it too long, but that's something I didn't think of. Thanks for sharing that build. Cheers, Hylt
There's detailing and there's super detailing which drives me crazy , just something to break hell of lot easier .
I think that's a good point, my point around detailing is that if you offer it, it should be able to run with it fitted. The care required is then totally up to the owner. But I get what you are saying.
Just ask anyone who’s not into model railways if a given loco is worth hundreds and you’ll get your answer. If I’m paying more than 150 GBP, I want lights and plenty of die cast or I’m not paying.
Totally here you on that mate, I think most would agree with you on that point. I would expect exactly the same frankly! Cheers, Hylt
@@Proper_Chuffed great video btw. Very informative.
Dapol, Accurascale, Rapido have been my primary choice based on features with heljan on budget.
Hornby and Banchman are either too expensive or just can't find them in stock.
@@zepheris_ I think Hornby are rip off merchants. Not had a Dapol yet. Accurascale are great value. I’m actually a fan of Bachmann too, but you’re right, a lot of their stuff is hard to get.
Also think you need to mention coreless motors as an alternative as they are very good, and can be made very small.
Very good point. I perhaps should have renamed that category to 'High-End Motor' to cover the offering.
An aspect over which I hope I am wrong concerns the increasing use of metal. Now, do not get be wrong, this is a good thing providing we do not start getting more Mazak degradation problems. In the last 20 years there have been quite a few occurrences. I know some very old Trix and Dinky models (pre-1960s) sometimes had problems and some 1970s Lima locos as well, but Hornby and Heljan have had a number of incidences in the early 2000s (2004-2010 - Class 31s, T9s, etc.). I just hope the variable standards with motors do not show themselves with all this metalwork. I do not want to think about £300+ models cracking apart, not that I have any!
A very good point here Jeffrey, something I didnt really account for in this video. I would hope we're at a point where premium models wont be disintegrating... ever! 🥲
I’ve had two hornby railroad range locos one was a steam train, the tornado peppercorn tts sound, it was really good and as a newcomer it did me proud. I then got a HST pack that I think was around £140 this model had traction tyres, was utter diabolical quality, and luckily for me died within a few hours use so got returned. Had the HST been my first loco it would have put me off the hobby as a newcomer. It ran like a cheap toy, jerky at lower speeds and was pure pure shite! Traction tyres in this days and age on new models 🤷🏻♂️
For this reason I wouldn’t entertain another railroad, I assume the tornado peppercorn was more of a one off decent model and the HST is the standard.
Top video as always hylt, your videos aren’t railroad range are they 🤩🤩🤩👌
Ahh class sign off there Dave! Haha I certainly try, though not sure I always succeed.
There seems to be a massive disparity in that range too, which makes no sense, surely we should be looking at some kind of consistency? Personally railroad is not my speed, and as you say, it can be a total miss. But I do think those that opt for that offering should at least be serviced by some decent running locos?
Thanks man, always appreciate you watching.
Also, we should expect tender pickups on premium or better.
All wheel I would say. Everything should be covered at that price point.
I hope the industry doesn't adopt the new loco and tender connection because it's a friction fit and will be a liability like we have already seen on the new black five the connection isn't good and the electronics are not connecting well either just keep it as the physical single bar and have a separate plug for wires.
I for one like it, but I do think a lot more R&D needs to go into it. If it's causing problems now, it needs to be pulled and worked on before it continues into production. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Joseph. Cheers, Hylt
Some great points made but I’d be more interested in how expectations differ between continents.
Hi William, thanks for watching, are you referring to different markets in HO?
Yes. I’ve seen many comments from European modellers that there models are better than UK OO.
@@williamvanalen9414 I would agree with that overall. I’m fairly well exposed to Marklin etc and would say quality overall is vastly superior
I think you are pretty much spot on Hylt and the disparity between production of the different loco's and prices makes no sense when you appear to get less for more money! Also why pay premium prices for a loco with lots of added bits that once added mean you cannot run the loco on your home layout! All seems a little strange to me.
Hey Tony, thanks for that, yeah actually I was watching Craig over at @ironhorserailways and he made a great vid about just that thing. It makes no sense to release detail parts that cannot stand up to running conditions. My Bachmann 37 and 47 are prime examples of this and it's infuriating. Cheers and thanks for dropping by as always. Hylt
There is a hell of a lot of work goes into any model, steam or diesel, from concept, project plan, research, tooling, components, labour costs, prototyping, engineering samples, painted samples, production, packaging, marketing, shipping, distribution, all needs costing and sometimes I think a lot of people don't appreciate the amount of work involved. Steam as for any model, is what you are prepared to pay for, whether railroad (Lima), or top level, and how close to prototyping you want to model. Steam has the same problem as diesel with Steam and smoke, which is really difficult at 1/76 scale to get realistic enough to be prototypical. As with any product it's what you are prepared to pay. Very subjective.
I completely agree with you on that, I certainly don’t want to take away from the work involved, I think more than anything the disparity and differences in different levels is more of the highlight here 😊 but you make some brilliant points.
I agree, and to be honest anyone who owns an Accurascale model and looks at the astonishing number of parts make that model, I am amazed they sell them at their price points, which makes me wonder why for example Bachmann charge what they do for a comparable model, and Hornby for the same price but a much lesser spec model, and I can only wonder what the support costs are to maintain a large back catalogue of active models and does this effect the likes of Bachmann and Hornby, otherwise their prices are hard to fathom
Although it should go without saying, I think we should all be demanding smooth running, scale speeds and scale loads at all price points.
I feel like that should be the absolute baseline. Completely agree with you.
It is difficult to work out some aspects of the pricing policy of some manufacturers. One thing that troubles me is the haphazard quality control that afflicts some new models. Also, why are the motors of some recent models so unreliable or underwhelming and yet others are fine?
Completely agree with your Jeffrey, it's definitely something that is plaguing some of the main companies. We really need more of a standard, with quality, and quality control. Cheers, Hylt
@@Proper_Chuffed Fundamentally, I am more interested in how well a model runs than what its technical specification is. I recall Sam's Trains having problems with engines such as the new Hornby 2-10-0 not having enough torque to negotiate 2nd radius curves. Not all are like it though, as confirmed by That Model Railway Guy. Enough name dropping though!
This is a highly commendable exercise in developing some objective criteria.
I find the constant moaning about prices in online fora very tedious and think it's mostly because the hobby is dominated by old men - and they often moan about the price of everything. "Back in my day" etc
It also frustrates me that so many people assume that the features of the product determine the price. They don't. The main factor is establishing a price the market will bear and maximising revenue accordingly. The manufacturers aren't charities - their duty to their shareholders is to maximise profit.
Hey, guess what?...you too are going to be old one day and no doubt moaning about how things aint what they used to be!!
Thanks for that mate, I appreciate it, I know it might not be a water tight solution but I am doing my best to sort of rationalise it all. I know there are a myriad of factors that probably throw a wrench in the formula, but as a baseline, even just for myself, I think it kind of makes sense. Cheers for watching. Hylt
@@crewelocoman5b161 note the "often". Not all old men do. Generally the more self aware ones don't.
I plan on following my Grandad's example - recognising progress and optimistic until his dying day.
@@eurovnik I did note the "often" that's why I commented.
Really useful analysis. It's a pity some of the manufacturers don't structure their ranges and prices with similar rationality.
Hey Piers, thanks for that, glad you agree. It's not a set in stone thing, but if it helps in some way, great! :) Hylt
at over 220 quid i expect no seams on the boiler, turned brass whistle/safety valves, metal handrails straight n lvl running board (i'm lookin at you Hornby Black 5 )
There were seams on steam locomotive boilers running from the chimney to the firebox and sometimes between the smokebox and boiler.
That is the absolute minimum, totally agree, that price point demands a level of quality and precision that matches it.
@@crewelocoman5b161 not like the seams on the models there isn't otherwise those seams n gaps will be upto 6-7 inches tall or wide even more on some of the poorer models
@@sammy_dog Does the width of the track ever bother you?
@@crewelocoman5b161 I bet you would be happy paying over 200k for a Rolls Royce with a engine that doesn't work as well as it should What about 6-7 inch gaps in the doors boot n hood seams as well as 6-7 inch weld seams If not then stfu n gtf off the forum
Pretty good assessment.
Except DCC ready in the cheaper railroad range is not required.
Keep the costs down to get kids into the Hobby.
Personally I think that DCC is a specialty and not applicable to everyone.
I run vintage DC so for me wasting money and space in the mechanics of a loco is an annoyance.
I know that the DCC community will disagree, but we need a cost effective range to draw the younger generation into the hobby.
To me Hornby is too expensive these days anyway.
There are a lot of families struggling to make ends meet and Hornby has cut them out of the running for the Hobby.
Happy Modelling
I’ve been to exhibitions where people are generally enthused but have watched them go to a trader and then they find out how much the models they’ve been watching actually cost . There is incredulity at the amounts being charged and is a complete turn off to many .
Hello Rusell, thank you for sharing mate, can't speak to that myself but I can imagine the exorbitant prices are totally off putting for most people these days.
Modern coreless motors are every bit as good for DCC in smaller locos
Fair point there, I should have perhaps made things a little more broad in that regard, perhaps 'high-end motor' would be a better name for it.
Sprung buffers are a totally pointless feature when you consider that 99+% of people use automatic couplings so buffers never make contact (often remaining a scale 2' or more apart!), so you'll never see them function as intended. If they were 'essential', why not have them on coaches and wagons too? With close-couplers, buffers that come realistically close will cause derailments on most model railway curves anyway, even if they are sprung.
Hey man, thanks for dropping in and watching. I actually agree with you on this for the most part. The reason I would classify them as essential in the premium offering is that they’ve become something of a standard. While I personally don’t see any point in them, I can understand folks who would put that as their standard. Does that make sense? 😊 cheers, Hylt
Are we getting value............In general I say no...........But it seams to be the same manufactures doing this.
Bachmann and Hornby are the worst by far.......With these two it's like wash rinse and repeat.
If you take the time to contact them it's always thanks for your input we will look into it.
I think your right on with your tables. My thing is the company needs to get the fundamental down first.
Not rush the loco out the door to meet a dead line.
Hey there, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, totally hear you on what you're saying. In some cases, production almost seems way too delayed too, on the flip side. Agreed though, get the fundamentals down more than anything else.
Cheers, Hylt
I've just sold up ...now I actually get out more
Oh man thats a huge shift, are you ever going to come back Kenneth?
Cheers, Hylt
Down to price?
The only reason you can get advanced toys like this under 500 is the fact that they are produced in China by hords of young girls working 9 to 9, 6 days a week, sleeping in dorms owned by the factory.
It’s rather worrying to consider that in the bigger picture, but certainly something that needs light shined on it 😓
Wished that the steam locos had lights the only one that in recent memory was the hogwars loco which did look bad however if you take a lamp and drill a hole in it and place it in the lamp holder it looks better.
The new Black 5 has one, which is good to see, we need more of this frankly. Cheers, Hylt
@@Proper_Chuffed Err no! Steam locomotives did not have "lights", they had lamps for train coding purposes which were lit only for night time operation. After WW 2 some new LNE, LMS and SR steam locos were fitted with electric lighting but were soon abandoned as they couldn't be seen during daylight hours. The BR Standards were never fitted with electric lights. On model steam locos they look ridiculous, diesels etc, absolutely fine. Check out archive sources, there's plenty of it.
@@crewelocoman5b161 my mistake on the wording there. I hear what you’re saying, you certainly know a great deal about this so I would defer to you. My point is the optional extra to fit lit lamps really should be more commonplace, would you agree with that? 😊
@@Proper_Chuffed All I'd say is that the clamour for more and more detail is fine for those that want it, presumably because it fulfills a notion of accuracy/realism but in this case it simply doesn't. Steam locomotives never ran with "lights" except at night. Springside produce a range of scale loco and tail lamps (LNER, LMS, GWR, SR, BR) with jewelled cut glass reflectors which are much more accurate than those that come installed on the latest models.
If you want to thrive children let the lights lit. A diecast driving plate might be a question of durability especially for kids. A diecast housing might give a loco overweight; I do not think that every track system really stands heavy rolling stock. More important is a maintenance friendly design easy to to open without breaking something.
I never understood what's about sprung buffers - they are technically meaningless for the model, but make it more expensive without even making them more realistic. In Germany they are absolutely rare unless we are talking about scales 0, 1 or bigger.
Five pole motors are a consequence of questionable design decisions made before; there are elderly three pole locos running more smoothly than its modern counterparts, both digitalized. A well designed ringfield motor without any worm gear outperforms many modern drivetrains. Five pole motors do not help when gears of low quality are used for the drivetrain.
Hello Lars! I actually might change my opinion there on that, perhaps railroad pricing really should have lighting, it makes sense what you see. A lot more appealing to little ones. I completely agree on the sprung buffers too, absolute nonsense and I've never seen the point!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this, it means a lot to me sir! Cheers, Hylt
For me I don't care for all the "bells and whistles" that comes with certain models for I want reliable running and good haulage power. But also models that aren't a nightmare to take apart and service. They've made models in steam outline that are really complicated especially on the electrical side. I hate to say it but the Chinese made models have electrics that don't last the years.
Many a repair person has to place solder on pick up tabs so that there's good electrical contact to the motor.
Also the mechanisms are often cheap with Hornby's double gear wheel which is between the worm gear and the gear on an axle fracturing with age and often a replacement is not available. If that gear fractures then the motor turns but the model doesn't move and with no replacement available it either consigns a model to the rubbish or becoming just a permanent display item.
Hello :) Thanks so much for watching AP, I really appreciate it. I totally hear you about the bells and whistles being a bit too much to make servicing and such a veritable nightmare. I tried to approach this from a modern standpoint as to what we expect at certain price points. I.e, all the bells and whistles! :P But I totally hear what you are saying. Thank you for watching. Hylt
Let me put some context to my answer
I find sprung buffers pointless in oo gauge.
Metal un sprung yes
Every new model should have full cab details and flicking fire box
Thanks for clarifying Adi. Agree with you on this mate.
I beg to disagree, UK steam locos are different in that they have changing lamp codes, the lamp changing solution on Hornby's Black Five is quite troublesome and some people have said the lamps are oversized. I think supplying cosmetic unlit lamps will be better.
Correct. Unlike diesels steam locomotives never had lit lamps; only at night were they lit. After WW 2 electric lighting was tried out on some new locos (LNE, LMS, and SR) but abandoned as they couldn't be seen in daylight. The BR Standards were never fitted with them. BTW, Hornby used to produce a 'Super Detail Pack' which included some decent lamps and discs. Apart from that Springside make a very good range of lamps, BR, LMS, LNER, and SR (yes they were all different!) with jewelled cut glass in them which does give a bit of reflection and red tail lamps also with cut glass. Steam models with electric lights look ridiculous.
I appreciate that. This is exactly the kind of discussion I want to have :) I would say with a more well engineered tooling for this lamp switching, it should indeed be a standard though. I am basing this purely on what I see other markets doing. We should have that option, if we cant to run without lamps, great, but that option should be there. Hylt
When it comes to lamps being pre-fitted, i don't want them. if you want operational realism on your layout you can not have lamps at both ends of the loco when it is pulling a train. the lamps demark the start and end of a train. i will not be buying the new Hornby black 5 for this reason.
No..A friend of mine worked for a certain model company and he said that they where getting new loco,s for £32 delivered from china ,and selling them for 3 times that price then, Now the Chinese have caught on and are charging about £50-£60 per loco ,and the model companies here are charging rip off prices.... I wonder who gets all the profits.
Thats about what you'd expect with any business. Plus saying they sell it on for 3 times the price is maybe a bit disingenuous, the RRP may be £96 on something they get for £32 but the wholesale price they charge to retailers is somewhere between the two and even with direct sales they're still covering the costs of overheads on offering direct sales to begin with.
The streets of Margate are not paved with gold and aren't likely to be any time soon on the back of this industry 😅
That's kinda scary to be honest. Good question, assuming then they're being produced for closer to the £15-25 mark then?
@@Proper_Chuffed yeah but think of it like a cafe, they pay say $5 for a bag of coffee, they sell a cup of coffee for $5. If that bag makes 100 cups they've got $500. Out of that $500 they have to pay rent in most cases or a mortgage, power, put some aside for equipment needs, wages... then what's left is profit. From personal experience in this and other lines of work the profit is not huge and I think we are really not understanding that as a hobby. Even if it costs £300 the profit margin isn't all that per loco sold compared to the costs of doing business especially employing a design team in the UK, running offices in the UK which has been subject to the self same energy price hikes and so on that constitute the cost of living crisis. Likewise there's been no real let up in wages in china going up(about doubled on average over the last 10 years)
If we look at it rationally these prices are really not that much of a suprise. If we look using publically available evidence we can also see some hints of where others are making savings to enable a lower price. Accurscale last I looked had no offices to heat, no rent to pay for the business beyond paying a provider of a mail box in Covent garden in london to register the company at and they all seem to work from home basically. They have said through one of the staff on RMweb that they see themselves as more operating like a tech company than a normal model manufacturer and I can see what they're saying they seem to subcontract a lot of functions others do in house which means cheaper models but also means less steady jobs going as a result of their activities and more gig economy shenanigans, there's no free lunches and not to be all woke or anything but we bemoan hornby moving manufacturing out the UK but then lapped up the cheap models we got as a result... what I've explained above is just the next logical step but here we are again lapping it up until we see the hubris in 20 years when there's even less steady jobs in the industry.
Again, probably woke nonsense but ah well 🤣
Sorry Hylt, I could not disagree more strongly about the Hornby Railroad range! Utter junk, complete rubbish. I wouldn't even buy one for someone I hate! A flimsy plastic chassis with a single tower fitted motor propelling only two axles in only one of the bogies and needing traction tyres to grip (these leave a horrid track residue), not much pulling power, no directional lighting, no internal lighting and only average body detail at best!
Buy a nearly new (secondhand or new other) Bachmann loco, you know, a proper model, for the same price or even less and it will perform well, have great features and details and will last!
All models locos should be full featured with sound and lights as standard, no exceptions! It's dirt cheap for the manufacturers to do. They just excessively profiteer because they can. Who are the fools?
Are most railway locos overpriced generally? Absolutely. All the new model railway items are twice the price of what is reasonable/justifiable.
My advise; Only buy when the retailers offer substantial discounts, 35% - 50%, otherwise if you pay full price they will keep charging more and more. I guarantee that if people stop paying it, they will stop charging it!
Regards Julian
No don’t apologize Julian, I’m grateful, this is exactly what I was hoping for, I feel I have a lot still to learn and this is a fantastic example of what I’m trying to achieve 😊 I am super glad you spoke up about it. I had to pick my words fairly carefully here and still frankly, don’t know enough as much as other folks do when it comes to costing or stuff like sound, but certainly would think lights a cheap option? 🤷♂️ thanks for sharing mate. Some great points here.
Hylt
Many thanks for this Hylton - a really interesting and thorough investigation. There certainly is some disparity around what we can get for our money 👍🚂
Thank you so much, it's a little out of my wheelhouse but something different and hope it maybe helps you as much as it does me on a personal level when trying to value something correctly when making a purchase. Thanks for watching!