If this was Sf5.... If this was Usf4... If this was ssf4 ae... If this was ssf4... If this was sf4... If this was sf3ts... If this was sf3ng... If this was sf3.... If this was sf2re... Etc
Fatal Fury making up for lost time by adding a Drive Gauge to MOTW mechanics. it’s comically close to what Sajam is talking about, we have a lot of games that wanted to be simple and cut down rosters and movesets and added comeback mechanics, now we have a lot of games that give players a ton of options and resources to manage. These changes come in waves.
I feel like Uni went so hard into crazy core mechanics that it was a bit of inspiration. I know Strive released as a much simpler but good feeling game, and since then has added more and more complexity.
IMO I think all the people who would buy a fighting game do already. Every new fighter that comes out I try to teach my friends how to play saying “they made it easier for new players” then they don’t block and lose and quit the game anyway😂
True but I think that's only because you are playing them, lol. New players don't generally have a negative experience losing, if their opponents are around their level. Like obviously some people will fall off anyways, but the second someone feels like the average skill difference is too big to climb, they lose interest. So having good matchmaking is super important too!
yeah but no one is ever going to bring that up lol. ruining games in favor of getting more “new players” who are just going to drop it after a week is only good for the developers. the rest of us just have to live with all the bullshit they changed. for some reason though, people like sajam love to conveniently ignore this fact and act like anyone who brings it up is morally incorrect.
@@valeoncat13 you’re still coping. getting beat up by your friend who is better than you is infinitely better than losing to someone at your skill level who you know is also bad. not to mention, if you actually care about improving in any capacity, you will always choose to play with someone who can actually teach you something relevant. when i first started playing fighting games, i played a lot with my friend who was celestial in strive, got master in sf6 in like a month after launch, and was just generally better at me than playing games. but i didn’t whine and complain because i actually liked playing against my friend and i actually cared about getting better at the game. the bottom line is that if you want to play fighting games, you’ll play them no matter what, not because of arbitrary stipulations.
You can't just bring friends into fighting games, they are their own video game beast compared to any other genre. You have to get into them with intent, you have to learn the mechanics, train, practice. Not everyone understands that, or just not willing to commit that much to a hobby. Most people just want to jump in a game and pick it up quick. That isn't fighting games unless you're a seasoned FG player already.
@@eebbaa5560I totally disagree, I could only get into fighting games with SF6 because I have good internet now and the netcode allows me to play online without (many) issues. Playing with friends who were always better than me was really discouraging, but being able to play against multiple people around my level got me interested enough to go from not being able to combo crouching MK into a Hadouken to Master with A.K.I. Learning with someone who's much better than you is only fun if they're good at teaching, if not it's frustrating af
I have never touched sfv but I thought hit confirming was amazing everytime I watched, when I played sf6 the drive system just made a lot of sense when I watch 4 I loved the individuality of players like Sako doing insane shit late in bracket, when I watch 3S its a rhythm game
the thing about bit confirming is that it used to take skill and situational awareness. now you just press drive rush and get a full combo off of any stray hit or free pressure on block anyway. i only dabbled in sfv because i didn’t have the equipment to play it competitively, but i was really disillusioned after a while of playing sf6 when i started thinking back to sfv and even what i’ve seen of sf4. the game just feels way less deep now. every game feels the same and everyone plays their characters the same way.
@@eebbaa5560no they do not, watch booce and daigo, see how they play much differently, watch nuckledu and caba, gachikun and big bird, all of the top players play to their strengths, and usfiv is the only one to have elena and healing and thats playing the exact same. the luke era of sfv, chun li and yun (genei jin) in 3s. stop it its been that way for ever you're just a boomer
Broski's right though the revisionist history of SFV is absolutely bizarre. People just out here flat out lying about things now. Spending half of your resources is so much more risky than spending none because burnout is a death sentence in a game like SF6.
@@EarthLordCJ church. world warrior is objectively even more fuck-busted than ST. some of the grimiest, least "honest" street fighter in the series. every SF game has something that's wack, and that's okay.
the problem with sf6 isn’t the system mechanics. it’s the fact that the system mechanics aren’t unique at all. the drive system is used the exact same way by every character and it makes the game feel homogenous. there’s no variety.
@@eebbaa5560 The thing about making character-specific mechanics relating to Drive is that it is an entirely new layer that requires appropriate character design and balancing like V-Triggers and V-Skills were. It’s not impossible to have that in a game like SF6, but it is far easier to have the Drive system at a baseline be something that characters can use in the same way (like how everyone in GG can use the same kinds of Roman cancels, they just don’t always use it in the same way or for the same reasons).
I love the eternal cycle of new fighting games being called baby games for children. Shoutouts to the people who said that about Blazblue Calamity Trigger. Hearing that was part of why I first tried it when I was way younger and wanted to try more fighting games after only really playing sf2 when I was super young.
Until the new game becomes old, only then it becomes a masterpiece and the new game becames "baby game". Has been happening every single time for the last 20 years.
@@lorenzolombardi3369 Pretty much yeah. I'm pretty sure you can still find ancient archived forum discussions calling SF3 a scrubby volatile game compared to Super Turbo from way back in the day
It’s funny that you say this because it’s why I got BBCT as well. It’s also extra funny because BB is often now considered the “hardest” out of it and GG.
@@EarthLordCJ If anything, it proves that the culture of competitive gamers trying to cockfight about whose game is the hardest is a tale as old as the genre at this point 💀
Truthfully you can still play Street Fighter 2 in any Street Fighter game with a couple version specific additions. Yeah, I might use everything besides Drive Rush Cancel but I'm still playing the same Sonic Boom and Flash Kick.
I think that's why Drive system is such a nice mechanic. you can use it however you see fit and there's nothing stopping you from doing well regardless of how you utilize the mechanics. you can use drive just for EX moves if ur not good at rush canceling and thats perfectly valid or you could just use it defensively for parries and reversals and be fine that way.
It's actually insane that in this community saying Street Fighter 6 is a great and well designed fighting game is like a hot take just because of the mass of people salty about it. There always has to be deep dives and analysis's of past games just so these dudes can claw at any reason to rationalise hating this game because they're bad at it. it's so tiring.
@@joedatius you're probably right but it definitely doesn't feel that way most of the time. And I'm not even on twitter, this game alone makes me never want to be either, seems like the most insufferable sight on the Internet.
Im a season 1 master zangief who dropped the game competitively shortly before S2. (I still play casually with friends from time to time tho) I complain about 6 because i think it could be so much better. But, Its still a very good game. I played it for a few hundred hours and most of that was very fun. But the game is also pretty deeply flawed and their patches aren't moving it in a better direction imo. I want to push the community where I think it will thrive best, where i think the best games will be made. Its not about old game good new game bad. Its about both games good in some ways, bad in others, and i want us to fix the bad parts of the new games, by looking at how past games did things right. Something i complained about in sf4 was how powerful ultra was as a comeback mechanic. Sf6 totally fixed that. It's great! I also really like the drive system in concept. No complaints. But sf4 did other things better and those are the areas i want to criticize. Its controversial to say sf6 is great and *also* say it doesn't have big flaws. It does
@@SuperLemonfish I'm not gonna disagree it has flaws, it's literally impossible for it to be perfect and that goes for every fighting game so no one should expect that. But in comparison to fighting games out right now and even others before it, 6s flaws are not that big. Maybe that's an actual hot take but this game has done incredibly well for itself and has made the community thrive more than the series ever has before. Its an amazing game to watch and it's an amazing game to play despite its flaws. Its incredibly well balenced and varied which is crazy seeing as they tried to make it good for two separate types of people (hardcore fans/pros and newcomers). The game needs tweaks here and there, that's true but I'd argue every great fighting game does. In comparison to others it needs the least tweaks of all because it was very well thought out and executed right out of the gate and I just think instead of spending all day trying to tear it apart people should be praising it for that. I genuinely believe even in its current state SF6 is one of the best fighting games ever made and I hope by the end its remembered as that because it deserves to be.
@@SuperLemonfish I think all games have their flaws but i dunno I think if the vast majority of the playerbase are enjoying the game and where its going then I don't think its fair to say its deeply flawed. I mean especially compared to the past. before we had to deal with online barely working, bad matchmaking, a serious lack of single player content, new editions splitting the playerbase. SF6 just doesn't really have any of these massive core issues. the biggest i could say is that the monitization has issues but thats pretty openly criticized. other then that i don't really see anything that would be significantly changed anytime soon.
to add onto the GBF part of the games iterating part, Rising also added the Bravery Points where each round you get 3 resources you can use to either use an attack that can both guard crush or extend combos (the extender also costs 25 meter) or use it as a "get off me" button during blockstrings all with the caveat that once you are at 1 or 0 BP you take extra damage (you can also lose them by getting guard crushed by the move or getting hit by supers) & you get more back by using supers.
I think it’s a bit ridiculous to look back at SFV with rose tinted glasses in terms of gameplay. Roster & costumes are pretty much the only things better atm
cap. this is the first game where that saying actually applies. sf6 is pretty much an anime game without the same depth of movement and defensive options that anime games have.
It's really funny to me that some people call the Z Burst Dash from Sparking Zero "Drive rush" as a joke. I'm pretty sure that DBFZ had air time in a Capcom meeting once or twice, because we made the same joke calling Drive Rush "Homing Dash" on FighterZ. Combine that with the auto combo system from that game, and Modern controls starts to make more sense too. Anyway, yeah trends are strong in Fighting Games, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes not so much. It's important to remember that you are only mad about these game mechanics because you are getting hit by them, we typically love them when we are the ones using them smartly.
In a way it's kinda cool cause not many game still have a dedicated fan base 10 years after the new game came out, but when it's just out of spite of the new thing ehh.
Ive always said i find it weird that other genres of video games someone will say the game is difficult or has a learning curve and its accepted whether they carry on or not. But when it comes to fighting games its always seen as some extreme hurdle to crossover when its just like learning any another game thats new to you.
I don't know if this is true for other people, but in my friend group, everybody got into the other hard genres as kids. My friends grew up playing Call of Duty and League of Legends when they had tons of free time to play and improve, your young brain is more ready to learn, and they were playing with each other so they kept each other motivated. I didn't really get into fighting games until the pandemic, and having all of that extra time helped me get over that new player hurdle, plus I was playing with a friend who was familiar with the genre but was learning the games at the same time I was, so he was only ever one step ahead of me. Now when I try to introduce friends to fighting games, they're too busy to put in the work to get to the point where they really click with the genre, and they bounce off after playing a few times, since the games seem too hard. But they forget that the shooters and MOBAs that they play were hard to get into as well, they just didn't care back then.
when 4 came out third strike players called it awful, untraditional, a dumbed down new version with gorilla gameplay. when 5 came out, 4 players called 5 the same thing. Now 6 is out, we're seeing it again. At some point you have to realise that you're probably going to have a clouded biased judgement on the thing you spent years mastering, and that you're trying to find fancy reasons around saying "i don't like having to learn new stuff"
@@a52productions are you people incapable of engaging seriously in any discussion or are you just shivering in your boots at the thought of having to defend your inane opinions?
I can easily compare the following two unbelievable things in my mind: 1) There are DSP fans! 2) There are people who compare the sh1tfest that sfv was (especially in its first years) to sf6
Put me in with the JWong school of fighting game enjoyers because I've enjoyed pretty much every street fighter. (and FGs in general, even the bad ones I can find some fun in) I def have my favorites but I've liked all of them for what they are. I embrace both the differences and how they're alike. Greatest series ever.
The people who hated SFV now hate SF6 and praise SFV. This is eternal, that's just how it is. I just tell people they sound like DSP and it makes 'em either angrier or shut up. I win both ways.
nah i don't think thats exactly true. SFV was overwhelmingly hated by a large majority of the entire community since launch and only gotten more favorable yet opinions years after while SF6 is overwhelmingly positive by the majority of people
@@joedatius it's all about perspective, right? From my experience the people that lose to me in SF6 tell me to go fight them in SFV which I didn't play at all. Back in SFV the same individuals would tell me to fight them in 3 or 4. I bet the overall picture is different but I can only speak for my experience.
@@ectothermic Well yes and no. Thing is SF6 is like SF III 3rd Strike, these SF games have a dominant system that completely changes the neutral game (compared to the previous games) For SF III 3rd Strike its the Parry system (SF6's Parry is far, far weaker), at high level play you constantly move, you go for parry fishing, baiting pokes, various mixups and the wakeup game changes a lot as well. For SF6 this is the Drive Rush mechanic, which means stealing turns, constantly pressuring the foe & SFT tier lists either revolve who has the best DR hit confirms, who has the most option to open up the defence & who can counter the DR system. Thats also the reason why you have blowouts/perfects in both of these games, as every little mistake at the highest level can easily snowball a match.
To your point about difficulty not being the deciding factor for whether newer players get into a game, I think it becomes even more apparent when you look outside of video games. I'm involved in my yugioh scene, a card game that is so complex it's joked about being for lawyers only, and yet it gets enough turnout that if a tournament has less than a thousand players the results of that tournament are scrutinized based on low participation. You can't even argue that it's just nostalgia for the old anime, since the game as it is doesn't resemble the game depicted in the anime even a little. Some people will always bounce off of games where you can suck in front of a human opponent, but for the people who can overcome that hurdle, I think those players want complexity, since that gives games longevity.
I think difficulty does matter, but less so is it the difficulty of the Actions Of Gameplay and far more about the difficulty of Comprehension, which often isn't about the game, like the game's design can help or hinder, but having a friend or the desire to dive into community does a lot more for that, I've always liked YGO, but getting Decent at it really required having a friend who was more into it to help me polish play patterns and build more refined decks And the complexity is important to that too, people want to comprehend and experience learning, and too much simplicity means that there's a lack of things to learn and comprehend, not enough nuance or interesting situations drags things down
Here's my maybe hot take. Simple games are significantly more hostile to new players than complex games because the skills to be good at simpler games (like footsies rollback edition) are very gradual and have a very slow return on investment in terms of study and practice to win rate or feel goods. More mechanically complicated games usually have some fucked up shit that you can grind out and improve at quickly to a point where you can execute in game, and this gives an immediate return on investment because you see the training paying off and get that moment of "i just fucked that guy up i'm a badass." This gives you some spice to your play.
the most insidious part about simple games is that they completely rob you of any enjoyment or motivation you might otherwise have in a game with real stakes or metrics of improvement. once you get to the intermediate stage, the process of playing is completely disillusioning for new players because they can actually see the ceiling. you don’t feel good about winning or “improving” because there’s such limited space for it by design, and it doesn’t even feel rewarding to beat people after a while. on the other hand, you’ll also be less motivated to grind because there just isn’t anything cool or interesting waiting for you at the top. if you watch pro-level sf6 the gameplay of the best players in the world is largely indistinguishable from the average 1700-1800 mr player simply due to how limiting the game is in terms of its ceiling and skill expression.
Also, every new player has trouble with their first combo. Knowing the game is easy only makes it worse when you fail at it. And also also, PvP games cannot truly be "easy" almost by definition, because your opponent sets the difficulty level.
Starting Street Fighter 6 in middle age: Me: "Ah, the Drive Gauge has six blocks." Opponent: *does Drive Impact seven times consecutively* Me: "Well that makes sense."
I truly think you can identify the quality of the last fighting game by the amount of outrage when the next fighting game gets released. SF6 not getting a lot of outrage shortly after release says a lot about SF5.
completely baseless theory and impossible to prove. it was agreed upon by most people that sfv was actually in a decent state by its final season. it was only received unfavorably in its early seasons and has to deal with that unfair perception for most of its tenure.
Only thing I would like SF6 to move away from is throw loops (change them so they act more like Terry's throws) and change meterless corner carry combos or low resource combos that put opponent immediately in corner for virtually nothing. Those are the only things. Im tired of people complaining (well mainly streamers) "hurr durr low forward drive rush" when the previous game literally had dumb stuff too like Sajam talked about.
In 4 I casually played with my friends and Arcade Mode, and liked watching tournament footage on UA-cam. In 5, I thought I was finally going to Git Gud at SF, but I just wasn’t that motivated to play it. And eventually I felt like it was more bland to watch. I think 6 is my favorite for playing and watching.
It's low risk, but high cost... which is usually the way investing works. Single hit confirming in 5 was low risk, high cost because you had to commit to staying in the neutral which, as I'm sure you all know, the place most people in ranked avoid like the plague.
Hey sajam a little off topic but have you heard of the game Rivals of aether 2? Just came out today if you've ever wanted to try a platform fighter that's the game for sure. Love your content! Keep doing what you do!
The last part going over deep metagames and difficulty is a good response to someone like Leon Massey, who simply wants to engage in the top level gameplay sooner because he doesn't feel like mechanical skill should serve as a barrier to him getting to interact with the top level players. Leon is a Grade A Scrub for this take and I'm glad you had something interesting to counteract that mentality.
I like that they have the balls to literally tear it down and make new games every time even though they are far and away the biggest and most famous fighting game franchise ever. So everybody just has thier favorite game I started with alpha 3 but if we ever get ultra SF4 rerelease with rollback capcom my life is yours
As an anime player, I'm happy to play a game where you're incentivized to commit to a buffer from your strong pokes. The punish counter gives me enough of a reason to be patient instead, and there's still plenty of confirming the situation to optimize your conversion/pressure. SF6 is just an incredibly well-rounded game.
Not exactly true about if your medium into DR is blocked and now you're out of half your resources, end of story. I play Ken, it leaves me plus in your face and I immediately put you into shenanigans, 50 50s, shimmy, and all the while my drive meter is coming back up even if you guessed correctly every time. If you guess wrong once you'll likely take decent or huge damage and will have less drive meter then me by the time we finally reset... even if you i initially blocked my medium into DR at the start of the interaction. It's a very fun mechanic, but doesn't make for a great game in my opinion. It's always worth the gamble of your drive meter unless you're going to burn out. Especially Ken, it comes back so fast.
I agree with most of the video except for the last part. SF6 is a great example of how additional complexity and mechanics can actually help with making games more accessible, if not downright reducing the skill gap between players. Asking a new player to hit confirm within SFV's 15-16f hitconfirm windows if they want to reliably start applying offense right away is totally unreasonable, but that same new player could understand how to buffer into Drive Rush and apply basic SF6 style strike/throw pressure almost immediately if he was told how to do it. SF4 had way less system mechanics than SF6, but there was still a lot more going on in terms of offensive Vs. defensive options in the former from the moment a character scored a knockdown and started whiffing buttons before jumping. Additional system mechanics don't always translate into depth, and even simpler games can still ask of its players to hone their fundamentals to such a degree that grinding it for years becomes interesting too. SF6 came up with a ton of new system mechanics, but basically all of them are designed with the intent of streamlining aspects of previous games that have long been present in the series, and I wouldn't say it's become a game "more worthy" of being played over the course of many years for that.
what exactly did SF4 has more in terms of "offensive vs defensive options" that SF6 lacks? not really sure here what your argument is when deciding SF6 not being "worthy" of being played over the course of many years" not like that really matters anyway since SF6 is far more consistently popular then any of these past games and hasn't been slowing down though in reality all of these games have people still playing them
I think you confuse difficulty of execution(which is where a lot of simple game states end up, just play harder better faster at a specific game state because the tools you have brook little other option) with depth of decisions and knowledge Also you do know that SF6 hit confirms are even tighter yes?
@@syrelian I think the thing here people kind of ignore is that there are alot of different kinds of skill expression and complexity of what makes players good and the skill gap has simple changed
Execution isn't the only difficulty factor in a game friend. Sf6 has a pretty complex resource management system. Its a really hard decision making system.
I think an element of this is that higher-level players lose more often at SF6 because it has skill-based matchmaking that pairs you with opponents of similar skills more often. So they get mad. If you got to Grandmaster at SFV, you could trounce a bunch of Diamond-rated players.
whats frustrating to me is that DRC also chips your gauge for defending, especially if ur playing someone like manon which u get spammed dr'd, stopping a DR is so little reward with how much you can get out of it. Playing defensive is a detriment to your gauge and it feels horrible sometimes. Its just a feels like a death race when playing the game sometimes. The anxiety of having to do something proactive is put on the defending player and offensive player makes a very polarizing game. Dude just let me block please. There's just so many games where the guy perfects me and the next round i get my opener and perfect them. I think in SFV, a perfect felt, well perfect. you just owned.
I fully agree with not 'shallowing out the endgame', as you put it. When SF6 was first being announced and the mechanics were being laid out, Drive went a little over my head, and I figured people would use it to break the game wide open in a way I was never gonna be able to figure out...and I was fine with that, because Modern controls meant that, no matter how bad I was at the game, I was actually going to be able to PLAY it, unlike all the other fighting games I had tried and failed to pick up before. If the floor is accomodating, I'm not worried about lowering the ceiling.
lowering the ceiling is the worst thing that could ever happen to a game. games with nothing left to strive for once you reach the pinnacle of the gameplay are boring. you wouldn’t understand that because you couldn’t even get on the floor to begin with.
@@eebbaa5560 I think you missed the part where I said I actually don't want or need the ceiling to be lowered? Lol we're on the same side of this issue friend.
@@vaderwalks i misinterpreted your last sentence to mean the opposite. rereading it now, i can see that you meant “not worried” differently than how i read it.
I try not to call the new game "scrubby" but as someone who did really enjoy SFV it hasn't exactly been fun to see people talk about SF6 like this savior of fighting games when all the stuff i liked about V was purposely excised from it. Ive tried to like 6 but i feel like it's impossible to tame people in that game because of how enabled they are by the system mechanics. Feels like committing to a more solid gameplan is just worse than flinging yourself across the screen. Parries also make stagger pressure feel worthless and completely eliminate the high/low game when pressuring someone. It also sucks to get throw looped and they're not fun to do. I also just really enjoyed single hit confirming and it sucks that a thing i liked doing is just not there anymore. More power to anyone who enjoys 6 but seeing all these "oh you only hate it cause it's the new game and/or you're losing" comments kind of ignore that you could just not find the mechanical emphasis of a fighting game fun and imo its fair to be bummed out by that if you liked the last one.
people say "oh you only hate it cause it's the new game and/or you're losing" because your arguments come off as someone who doesn't really understand the game enough to say these things. especially stuff like "parry eliminating the high/low" game which is just factually wrong. you can't always parry in every defensive situation and people use high/lows in ways to bait people into parrying in bad moments to punish them. if you like SFV thats fine and all but don't be shocked when people don't take those arguments seriously if tell them these things
@@joedatius high/low is not used to bait parry because parry covers both. The problem with parry as it's implemented in SF6 is it boils defensive interactions into strike/throw most of the time and not what kind of strike. If you simply chose to block in other SF games you still had to choose high/low as well as crossup/same side. You do not have to do this anymore. Parry is always correct vs any strike. If you read strike, you parry. What kind of strike is now irrelevant. Baiting and punishing the parry is obviously possible but has nothing to do with height of strike.
Something I've been thinking about recently that I'd like to hear your thoughts about, is ways for fighting games to both teach AND remind people about surface level things directly, and how other games do it. For instance, I'm a Destiny 2 victim, but I would never recommend it to to friend because the game SUCKS at telling you things. League is hard af, but I'd say it does a pretty good job of showing and telling you what your character's moves do at a surface level; you can hover over a move at any time and a hologram pops up that shows its range and whatnot. Or another example would be Valorant, and how characters throw smokes. The game literally just shows you where it's going to be. I bring up this topic because I have friends who learn games very differently from me; they literally just play the game. They don't look up guides, watch videos, etc. I'm the complete opposite; I watch a bunch of videos and look for third-party resources. One of those friends has an interest in XRD, so I was stuck thinking and was frustrated about how a lot of games, even outside of fighting games, just don't tell you shit, at least in an accessible way. Like how tf did people figure out gatling tables and move properties (i.e. special cancel) back in the day without sitting down and trying literally every move and every move after it 😭 Even in SF6, unless you go into training mode, turn on the cancel property setting, hit the dummy with every single move, you just won't know. And then that led me to thinking about the arcade scene, and how pretty much every cabinet at the very least had that little graphic of every character's special moves with inputs. Really miss that, ngl.
It's interesting how it's always the old game that I was good at that took more skill and the new game that I am not as good at takes less skill and is more random. Funny how that works out.
Lol, it's literally just a fact, that SF6 is far easier all around than (dare I say it?) every other iteration before. Insane buffers on offense and defense alone are reason enough. When you can just mash your combo and get it 100% of the time, then there's something wrong.
@@plok3788 people were complaining about sfv being too scrubby then we got a game with literal autocombos and free extensions off of stray hits at the press of a button lol
4:01 I think you're right that developers like to develop away from the last game, but this was a poor example to demonstrate it. This sounds like you're just saying that the identity if MK is strong offense and the identity of Injustice is strong defense, which is very consistent identity for both series.
I don't think you understood what he was saying. the point is about how SF developers typically keep on changing things with mechanics and such while NRS is different in how they seem to go back and forth of how their games are played. its a juxtaposition not a full comparison.
I get that this video isn't *really* about the twitter stuff but I feel like we glazed over it. The argument that somebody is losing 'half of their resources for nothing' if the opponent dodges your mixup after a drive rush feels disingenuous. Unless you get DP'd out of the drive rush, as long as you start hitting buttons (or back up after your throw gets teched) you start getting meter back before the other guy gets to take his turn. He also gets drive gauge chipped if he's blocking. Consider the meter economy of cancel as well: I get two 'guesses' on offense in exchange for my 3 meters, which feels incredibly powerful for a resources that comes back over time. I've watched people in tournament matches do low forward into drive rush 3 times in first 15 seconds of a round, land a hit on the third low forward where they've burned themselves out, and now have the other guy in the corner facing wakeup pressure while they build their drive meter back. I'm not trying to say it's 'free' pressure or side with the folks who are out here just trying to make everybody hate on SF6 but I feel like there's a reason so many people feel like the risk-reward is skewed in a way that feels worth complaining about. Maybe it's perfect the way it is. I don't know, man, I just play video games.
the arguments in favor of a game will always be disingenuous because no one is willing to engage with the possibility that something that they like may have issues in its design, which sf6 does. i like sf6 and street fighter at its core, but people like sajam and his little fans are addicted to gaslighting people who aren’t like yippee random knockdown into rps into two-touch! people just act like they have the moral high ground for always faking positivity and never criticizing anything and they want the entire fgc to agree with their echo chamber. the bottom line is that if capcom doesn’t change something about the drive system soon, it’s going to get really old for everyone, even the people glazing it. the fact that risk-reward is skewed against the defender in every interaction plus the fact that this game drops new patches and characters at a snail’s pace has already put me off of the game to the point where i can’t play it for more than a week at a time without needing to take breaks.
Dude you didn't watch the video if you said this. He talked about why the SF6 is designed around drive-gauge. He talked about why spending 3 meter needs to be good, but not too good. Also your comments is just plain wrong. Hitting buttons after? Yeah you get two buttons then it isn't your turn. After throw tech? You just lost -3 meter. Now you have less meter to DP, less for Drive Reversal, less for combos. And no, it doesn't just regenerate in 5 seconds, you don't play if you say that. Meter generates most when you advance/hit your opponent. Some characters have really strong pressure and bulldoze, yes its difficult to check. I get how people don't like that aspect. But it's not even as good as Drive rush + Fireball and you talk like 2 guesses wins you the round. The video isn't even about "drive rush mixup". Its about hit-confirms and the difference between SF5 & SF6 neutral/game plan. FFS.
Sajam never admits the faults with a game, he always says " the game is good and balanced and if you think there is an issue its a skill issue"@eebbaa5560
@@eebbaa5560 Correct. I checked again the content drops for SF5 which initially had a really weak roster of 16 characters (4 new) with many favorites missing. However each season added 6 characters. With 5 seasons, the 16-deep roster eventually became 46-deep! Now SF6 had a 18-deep roster (with more well known characters, and 6 new). However SF6 has only 4 characters per season (total 26 characters for 2 seasons). But! the Drive Rush mechanic somewhat homogenizes characters. Even with strong/famous DLC characters arriving as DLCs, there are old characters who are boring (E.Honda) or even outright akward (Dhalsim).
but... but... it took me twenty times more time to get mediocre at quake movement than to be solid at like five tactical shooters. Or I missed the point of the example lol
Hey sajam I love you and worship everything you've ever said but I have a point I'd like to propose: To me, it is inherently fun to defeat my opponent because I hit them with the right move at the right time at the right place, I get 0 satisfaction for "using my meter to do a drive reversal", this doesn't feel like a fighting game, it feels like resource management. I understand the need to change up the formula with each game but on my most primal timmy instincts, it's not fun to think of exchanges as "well at least he lost half his meter, now I can slowly pressure him out of the rest and then threaten to drive impact him" I want to PUNCH THIS MAN and I want it to land because I baited out his attack. I really liked tekken 7 because outside of rage most of the game still stuck to what I believe to be the fundamentals of a fighting game but now with tekken 8 adding a ridiculously powerful install for every character it feels like turning the game from a complex mindgame into PRESS OR NO PRESS whenever it's activated and rather than playing neutral in a way to hit my opponent, I'm playing in a way to try safely activate heat so I can turn the game into PRESS OR NO PRESS. I liked ducking highs to launch people, no I would not like to activate drive to get plus frames to get a guaranteed mixup, this should be something reserved for specific character archetypes. I also don't want half my power locked behind a short window, I'd like access to it at all times thanks. Any thoughts on the idea that meter management is boring as a concept mr jam?
meter management is fun as a concept but everything else you said is right for other reasons. playing a character like zato or ABA is fun because of the meter, playing sf6 is not. meter management is interesting in a vacuum, but it completely subsumes and perverts the core gameplay of sf6 in practice. the drive gauge, specifically drive rush, warps the entire game around itself and makes it feel worthless every time you play, win or lose. the game is always boiled down to luck with the drive system, rather than jockeying for space and navigating complex interactions like it’s supposed to be. also never glaze someone before disagreeing with them again it’s not becoming
You have figured out that you have specific fighting game tastes and not every fighting game caters to you, I think this makes you top 0.01% intelligence when it comes to fgc discourse.
@@eebbaa5560 Glad to hear I'm not alone in this sentiment, most of my understanding of the fgc comes from either content creators or my few friends who play, I refuse to engage with twitter "discourse". I'm glad you brought up that in specific instances it can be fun which I agree with, I also don't mind install characters but in t8 it feels like every character is effectively an install character. Also, I do genuinely love Sajam's vids and a lot of his views and takes have been eye opening and entertaining to me and I think more people should hear him out on what he has to say. I'm allowed to glaze someone I've watched for like 5+ years. As a treat :3
As a diehard sf4 player, I love watching sf5 over sf4 easily. Since I was in the “sf4 never dies” group, I would sometimes be like “did you watch sf5 this weekend? It was pretty good!” And then they will answer me with “that game has no skill, it’s not street fighter...” while they were playing Ibuki with unblockable, or do some super cheese strats and I’m like “ok”
It’s a game that has a lot of stuff I like, but the game terrified me every time I played it. Felt like going into a lion’s den with how interactions played out.
9:52 I think that is pretty reductive, weak players like tactical shooters because they can one shot people if they have the element of surprise, it makes them feel like they have more of a chance. The movment is slow so they don't have to worry about excution as much. In an arena shooter like quake the sheer skill difference in movement alone means that it's nearly impossible for a less skilled player to even hit an opponent. In general the areas of improvement in slower clunky grounded shooters are much less visible so new player have less perception of the skill gap between them and experienced players. It makes tactical shooter much more approachable to casual audiences.
@@TheUbernuck Not necessarily, I think the inaccessible nature of DM arena shooters has really been one of the primary factors as to why they have nearly disappeared. They are objectively a much worse idea for a purely profit motivated developer if you consider scale, compare the active casual player base of games like CS or Valorant to the biggest arena shooters like quake live or Diabotical Rogue.
@@evilded2 If inaccessible games made people not wanna play them, Deadlock would be dead in the water, there's gotta be some other reason. My take is that deathmatch is too boring for competitive gamers, even CoD doesn't use that anymore except for casual modes.
I find generally that the gap is still quite apparent, but that the skill floor is lower, which sounds weird but like, feeling clearly outmatched and oppressed happens either way, but the floor to strike back is lower, rather than the gap feeling smaller Because what really crunchs people out of those situations isn't the inability to keep up, its the inability to feel like they can take actions or anticipate situations at all, its why teaching defense is so hard, because defense is, to most people, not an overt action, but rather a state of semi-passive inaction
Sajam could you talk about doom posting how it ruins a new player wanting to join? Seeing dizzy coming out in guilty gear makes me want to get into that game but seeing all the doom posting on twitter really discourages me to wanting to play the game. I feel like every fighting game discourse these days is just pure doom posting.
Stay off twitter, and try to find a friend or a few friends who are also new to the game to play with. As a new player, nothing that people are dooming about will affect you. And honestly a lot of it is overblown. I got into Strive at launch, played Faust who was barely a functional character back then, and had a blast. Just focus on your own enjoyment and improvement in the game and don't worry about other people's opinions.
You really shouldn't the fps genre to prove your point. Most the successful ones are successful due to reputation of the company (riot, blizzard, valve) or they have a legacy (cod, csgo)
Not only do they change the mechanics for worse most of the time, but they even keep changing the inputs of some classic moves for seemingly no reason.
What do you think if Capcom makes multiple Street Fighter games based on the respective mechanics, e.g., Street Fighter Alpha 4, Street Fighter III Fourth Something, MEGA Street Fighter IV, Street Fighter V Dash Upper, etc.?
10:13 this was my biggest gripe with Strive, especially coming from the older titles. The things you could discover with your character are so limited and the game heavily dictates how you should play in so many situations, like the wall mechnic for instance, really cements the impression of how much Arcsys actually took inspiration from SFV and are in the era of simplification, homogenization and streamlining in order to appeal to a more mainstream audience. Not to mention the huge reduction of the general option and decision space for every character, making them more boxed in and similar to each other than ever before. Things like the reduced and pretty much same gatling routes for every character, reduced moveset, way more similar and "boxed in" frame data across the entire cast, every button serving a similar purpose for every character e.g. c.S as your best combo and pressure starter, everyone having the limited dash cancels which lock you into the animation on c.S and 5K, same things for jump cancels etc. And this doesn't even factor in other issues like the game making so many things easily accessible there is not much to "strive" for (pun intended) besides of grinding matchups. That's it.
I know this is edited, but somehow the message of the two halves of this video seem to be different lol. I think overall the takeaway is that "difficulty" is very different depending on perspective, and in retrospect (and especially when things are out of the competitive spotlight) the view on those games are seen in a much different light when appreciated for what they are instead of what they're not. I think overall what Sajam here and others are talking about when they say "easy" is that they just don't want something that isn't stimulating; lots of readily available surface options creates the perception of lots to do from the ground level (which gets into the idea of why people say they want more interactions in a given match, which the last video seemed somewhat opposed to.) If there's one thing about the trends of fighting games that I'd love to see reversed, it's how much more limited, horizontal, and stilted movement has become in any given niche, whether if that's for perceived spectator appeal, to compensate rollback connections, or as a balance to how they want offensive rewards to go. For every Street Fighter iteration, it feels as though half the game is dedicated solely to "correcting" an issue people had with the past title, and the other half is dedicated to innovating something completely new. More so than probably any other fighter, they've been able to normalize the division of the community through different directions, which we've seen go over horribly (socially) for most every other franchise lol.
The reward on cr mk Dr is, either damage with instant corner carry into a safe jump meter build or block into a guess, which will build you meter if you guess correctly, and if you guess incorrectly more than like your opponent busted out using 2 bars of there own, so yes I might have used 3 but there's a big chance I you used 2 to stop my offense, or you guessed wrong on my shimmy attempt, cr mk Dr is in favor of the offensive player
You don't need to spend 2 bars to escape, tech a throw or perfect parry will also end the situation. Or just blocking the aggressive player will be pushed out unless they risk a throw.
You kinda need something to be advantageous for the 3 bars to be worth spending, that’s sorta self-evident. In the broad scope, spending half of someone’s Drive is a huge cost. I don’t think the reward itself is the issue, but the accessibility of getting that reward (cancellable crMKs often having very sizeable hit boxes for example) means that you fundamentally have more/easier opportunities to do it in a match.
@@EarthLordCJ yea I understand, my main gripe is when you get to cr mk range I'm like "dam I have to guess for my life right now" because you get to spend meter to put me in a shimmy situation even though you aren't even close to me lol
Disagree with your assessment on complex fighting games vs other genres. NOTHING comes close to the demands fighting games have. There are people who just won't play them because the learning curve is too high (fair point for someone's time and hobby preferences). No other genre has the engagement and things to manage second by second that fighting games have, that mental stack. Starcraft would be the only other thing I'd say is comparable. Have you ever tried to get a non-fighting game friend into them? There are things you take for granted learning over YEARS that they struggle with. Hell just combo execution alone some people straight up can't do. The notion of "practice" there are gamers who consider that a waste and boring and would never practice. Then you have all the nuances and mechanics of how frames work, recovery, links/cancels, multiple gauge management, anti-airs, corner pressure, etc etc etc. So many ways things can interact that you need to learn. No fighting game has ever retained players long term like shooters or mobas have. Most burn out and the game holds 5-10K concurrent of the diehard fans. They ARE the most demanding complex genre in gaming. Even deadlock does not have the need for focus and constant action fighting games have. Its certainly higher for a moba but nowhere near the constant action and management in a fighting game match or # of things to consider or be aware of. If someone doesn't want to commit the time and effort to get into a fighting game that's their choice. Its a demanding genre and hobby and one of the few genres of games where practice actually is required to improve. A LOT of people do not like that notion in their hobby (again that's fine its just entertainment). I think you take things for granted with learning new fighting games like all your past experience in them. That matters. Startup frames, links/cancels, managing meter, oki, corner pressure... These are universal and can be very very intimidating for a new player new to fighting games. We all know and learn it because we love it, but they are complex hard concepts to get across for completely new people.
idk... like you said, mobas or smth like Starcraft have a ton of apm and required knowledge/experience to play. It would be a lot easier for me to "teach" a friend GG Strive at a basic level than Dota 2, for example.
@@gardevoirdude7493 I don't know if I agree with that. Think about fighting games vs mobas. Mobas have a LOT of downtime, or just click a point and wait for your character to move. I am not trying to trivialize mobas, but the sheer amount of interactions, mechanics, and moment to moment decision making, management, APM, the only comparable to that is Starcraft. Its really about that constant action, constant things to manage, things to consider. There is no break in a fighting game for your brain. There are TONS of breaks, lulls, downtime in a moba. Even laning and last hitting isn't the same complexity as what a fighting game has going on in the moment. I think you could convey the goals of a fighter easily to your friend vs what needs to happen in a moba (laning/last hitting/team grouping/ganking), but explaining all the decisions, things to manage, combo practice and execution, that's an entirely different level.
@@thepunisherxxx6804 they aren't the same yeah but saying its not as complex as fighting games is just nonesense. they are complex in different ways. you can play ANY fighting game just by jump ins and sweeps and do fine against alot of people. go look at Diaphones guide to ranked play and you can see just how simple fighting games can be if you stopped obsessing over combos and and frame data. what you're trying to argue is just reaction time not complexity but then you're ignoring FPS like Counterstrike which arguably requires just as much if not more technical skill as any fighting game due to the skill ceiling of aiming. I really dont understand this logic of downtime = less complex. Chess has downtimes would you consider chess not complex?
It doesn't matter Sajam. If I'm not winning then this isn't real Street Fighter.
Will the real LTG please stand up.
this guy gets it
If this was Sf5....
If this was Usf4...
If this was ssf4 ae...
If this was ssf4...
If this was sf4...
If this was sf3ts...
If this was sf3ng...
If this was sf3....
If this was sf2re...
Etc
@@gillylambino1746 if this was pong...
If my game doesn’t slow down after being hit with a hadoken it’s not real street fighter
guys armored pot buster is real
No it isn't, it's dumb and cheap and won't happen. Too toxic
@@DANCERcow did you watch the trailer?
@@DANCERcow unless...
@@DANCERcowlmao watch the new strive balance vid
@@DANCERcowi’ve got news for you buddy
One day Sajam should just reupload one of his old videos as a joke and see how many people spot it
Perfect for April 1 tbh
I can't even notice when he changes shirt mid-video so I'd be one of the one's bamboozled
My favorite SF mechanic is SFV Ken's hair
My favourite SF mechanic is Abigail.
clipping through his shoulder
Still wish we'd have gotten that fit back in 6. The design was really good (imo) but the modeling was off.
Fatal Fury making up for lost time by adding a Drive Gauge to MOTW mechanics. it’s comically close to what Sajam is talking about, we have a lot of games that wanted to be simple and cut down rosters and movesets and added comeback mechanics, now we have a lot of games that give players a ton of options and resources to manage. These changes come in waves.
Probably just has to do with how relatively niché fighting games are, and how much of the playerbase a few big games capture?
And punish counter
@@Nostalgiaforinfithat shouldve been there a long time ago, and i mean when they invented counter hit punish counter shouldve been a thing too
I feel like Uni went so hard into crazy core mechanics that it was a bit of inspiration. I know Strive released as a much simpler but good feeling game, and since then has added more and more complexity.
What games even did this besides Strive? Anything pre-pandemic?
shoutouts to sf3's introduced core mechanics involving tapping forward once and tapping forward twice
way to be reductive what a wonderfully illustrated point 👍
@@eebbaa5560 idk, I thought it was funny. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that parry doesn't add a lot to third strike's gameplay
IMO I think all the people who would buy a fighting game do already. Every new fighter that comes out I try to teach my friends how to play saying “they made it easier for new players” then they don’t block and lose and quit the game anyway😂
True but I think that's only because you are playing them, lol. New players don't generally have a negative experience losing, if their opponents are around their level. Like obviously some people will fall off anyways, but the second someone feels like the average skill difference is too big to climb, they lose interest. So having good matchmaking is super important too!
yeah but no one is ever going to bring that up lol. ruining games in favor of getting more “new players” who are just going to drop it after a week is only good for the developers. the rest of us just have to live with all the bullshit they changed. for some reason though, people like sajam love to conveniently ignore this fact and act like anyone who brings it up is morally incorrect.
@@valeoncat13 you’re still coping. getting beat up by your friend who is better than you is infinitely better than losing to someone at your skill level who you know is also bad. not to mention, if you actually care about improving in any capacity, you will always choose to play with someone who can actually teach you something relevant.
when i first started playing fighting games, i played a lot with my friend who was celestial in strive, got master in sf6 in like a month after launch, and was just generally better at me than playing games. but i didn’t whine and complain because i actually liked playing against my friend and i actually cared about getting better at the game. the bottom line is that if you want to play fighting games, you’ll play them no matter what, not because of arbitrary stipulations.
You can't just bring friends into fighting games, they are their own video game beast compared to any other genre. You have to get into them with intent, you have to learn the mechanics, train, practice. Not everyone understands that, or just not willing to commit that much to a hobby. Most people just want to jump in a game and pick it up quick. That isn't fighting games unless you're a seasoned FG player already.
@@eebbaa5560I totally disagree, I could only get into fighting games with SF6 because I have good internet now and the netcode allows me to play online without (many) issues.
Playing with friends who were always better than me was really discouraging, but being able to play against multiple people around my level got me interested enough to go from not being able to combo crouching MK into a Hadouken to Master with A.K.I.
Learning with someone who's much better than you is only fun if they're good at teaching, if not it's frustrating af
I have never touched sfv but I thought hit confirming was amazing everytime I watched, when I played sf6 the drive system just made a lot of sense when I watch 4 I loved the individuality of players like Sako doing insane shit late in bracket, when I watch 3S its a rhythm game
theyre all cool as fuck yeah
the thing about bit confirming is that it used to take skill and situational awareness. now you just press drive rush and get a full combo off of any stray hit or free pressure on block anyway. i only dabbled in sfv because i didn’t have the equipment to play it competitively, but i was really disillusioned after a while of playing sf6 when i started thinking back to sfv and even what i’ve seen of sf4. the game just feels way less deep now. every game feels the same and everyone plays their characters the same way.
@eebbaa5560 bro you complained about drive rush in five other comments. Stop it, get some help
@@alondjeckto make me ngga
@@eebbaa5560no they do not, watch booce and daigo, see how they play much differently, watch nuckledu and caba, gachikun and big bird, all of the top players play to their strengths, and usfiv is the only one to have elena and healing and thats playing the exact same. the luke era of sfv, chun li and yun (genei jin) in 3s. stop it its been that way for ever you're just a boomer
PhiDX’s unanticipated enjoyment of SF6 corroborates everything stated in this video.
Broski's right though the revisionist history of SFV is absolutely bizarre. People just out here flat out lying about things now. Spending half of your resources is so much more risky than spending none because burnout is a death sentence in a game like SF6.
An honest Street Fighter with no unique mechanics would be boring. "Real Street Fighter" is a myth. Just go have fun.
World warrior?
That’s basically what OG SF2 was, and people would claim to love a crap ton of other SF games before thinking of that one.
@@EarthLordCJ church. world warrior is objectively even more fuck-busted than ST. some of the grimiest, least "honest" street fighter in the series. every SF game has something that's wack, and that's okay.
the problem with sf6 isn’t the system mechanics. it’s the fact that the system mechanics aren’t unique at all. the drive system is used the exact same way by every character and it makes the game feel homogenous. there’s no variety.
@@eebbaa5560 The thing about making character-specific mechanics relating to Drive is that it is an entirely new layer that requires appropriate character design and balancing like V-Triggers and V-Skills were.
It’s not impossible to have that in a game like SF6, but it is far easier to have the Drive system at a baseline be something that characters can use in the same way (like how everyone in GG can use the same kinds of Roman cancels, they just don’t always use it in the same way or for the same reasons).
Gotta love it when you can audibly hear people push up their proverbial skill-based-glasses
I love the eternal cycle of new fighting games being called baby games for children. Shoutouts to the people who said that about Blazblue Calamity Trigger. Hearing that was part of why I first tried it when I was way younger and wanted to try more fighting games after only really playing sf2 when I was super young.
Blazbaby XD
Until the new game becomes old, only then it becomes a masterpiece and the new game becames "baby game".
Has been happening every single time for the last 20 years.
@@lorenzolombardi3369 Pretty much yeah. I'm pretty sure you can still find ancient archived forum discussions calling SF3 a scrubby volatile game compared to Super Turbo from way back in the day
It’s funny that you say this because it’s why I got BBCT as well.
It’s also extra funny because BB is often now considered the “hardest” out of it and GG.
@@EarthLordCJ If anything, it proves that the culture of competitive gamers trying to cockfight about whose game is the hardest is a tale as old as the genre at this point 💀
Truthfully you can still play Street Fighter 2 in any Street Fighter game with a couple version specific additions. Yeah, I might use everything besides Drive Rush Cancel but I'm still playing the same Sonic Boom and Flash Kick.
I think that's why Drive system is such a nice mechanic. you can use it however you see fit and there's nothing stopping you from doing well regardless of how you utilize the mechanics.
you can use drive just for EX moves if ur not good at rush canceling and thats perfectly valid or you could just use it defensively for parries and reversals and be fine that way.
It's actually insane that in this community saying Street Fighter 6 is a great and well designed fighting game is like a hot take just because of the mass of people salty about it. There always has to be deep dives and analysis's of past games just so these dudes can claw at any reason to rationalise hating this game because they're bad at it. it's so tiring.
nah this stuff is all pretty niche. SF6 is pretty much unanimously praised. dont let twitter trick you into believing loud minorities.
@@joedatius you're probably right but it definitely doesn't feel that way most of the time. And I'm not even on twitter, this game alone makes me never want to be either, seems like the most insufferable sight on the Internet.
Im a season 1 master zangief who dropped the game competitively shortly before S2. (I still play casually with friends from time to time tho)
I complain about 6 because i think it could be so much better. But, Its still a very good game. I played it for a few hundred hours and most of that was very fun.
But the game is also pretty deeply flawed and their patches aren't moving it in a better direction imo. I want to push the community where I think it will thrive best, where i think the best games will be made.
Its not about old game good new game bad. Its about both games good in some ways, bad in others, and i want us to fix the bad parts of the new games, by looking at how past games did things right.
Something i complained about in sf4 was how powerful ultra was as a comeback mechanic. Sf6 totally fixed that. It's great! I also really like the drive system in concept. No complaints. But sf4 did other things better and those are the areas i want to criticize.
Its controversial to say sf6 is great and *also* say it doesn't have big flaws. It does
@@SuperLemonfish I'm not gonna disagree it has flaws, it's literally impossible for it to be perfect and that goes for every fighting game so no one should expect that. But in comparison to fighting games out right now and even others before it, 6s flaws are not that big. Maybe that's an actual hot take but this game has done incredibly well for itself and has made the community thrive more than the series ever has before. Its an amazing game to watch and it's an amazing game to play despite its flaws. Its incredibly well balenced and varied which is crazy seeing as they tried to make it good for two separate types of people (hardcore fans/pros and newcomers).
The game needs tweaks here and there, that's true but I'd argue every great fighting game does. In comparison to others it needs the least tweaks of all because it was very well thought out and executed right out of the gate and I just think instead of spending all day trying to tear it apart people should be praising it for that. I genuinely believe even in its current state SF6 is one of the best fighting games ever made and I hope by the end its remembered as that because it deserves to be.
@@SuperLemonfish I think all games have their flaws but i dunno I think if the vast majority of the playerbase are enjoying the game and where its going then I don't think its fair to say its deeply flawed. I mean especially compared to the past.
before we had to deal with online barely working, bad matchmaking, a serious lack of single player content, new editions splitting the playerbase.
SF6 just doesn't really have any of these massive core issues. the biggest i could say is that the monitization has issues but thats pretty openly criticized. other then that i don't really see anything that would be significantly changed anytime soon.
to add onto the GBF part of the games iterating part, Rising also added the Bravery Points where each round you get 3 resources you can use to either use an attack that can both guard crush or extend combos (the extender also costs 25 meter) or use it as a "get off me" button during blockstrings all with the caveat that once you are at 1 or 0 BP you take extra damage (you can also lose them by getting guard crushed by the move or getting hit by supers) & you get more back by using supers.
i thought you made this video already
Half of Sajam’s sterling career is “made this video already.”
Yeah but these discussions keep coming up as if they were never brought up before. Cyclical discourse.
I think it’s a bit ridiculous to look back at SFV with rose tinted glasses in terms of gameplay. Roster & costumes are pretty much the only things better atm
Let’s be honest, no street fighter game has ever been real street fighter… and in that way, they all are 😳
cap. this is the first game where that saying actually applies. sf6 is pretty much an anime game without the same depth of movement and defensive options that anime games have.
What does real street fighter look like to you? What game to you captures that@eebbaa5560
@@eebbaa5560absolutely! Until sf7 comes around 😌
Street Fighter is the most experimental fighting game series ever and this should not be controversial
We’re talking about room temperature IQ dudebros here man, of COURSE a series reinventing itself is gonna be controversial
these people where playing the same game for around 5-6 years and have the audacity to whine when things finally change.
King of Fighters?
@@weegeequeviucoisas9854I'd say KoF is a bit more conservative and tries to maintain legacy appeal. SF reinvents itself.
It's really funny to me that some people call the Z Burst Dash from Sparking Zero "Drive rush" as a joke. I'm pretty sure that DBFZ had air time in a Capcom meeting once or twice, because we made the same joke calling Drive Rush "Homing Dash" on FighterZ. Combine that with the auto combo system from that game, and Modern controls starts to make more sense too. Anyway, yeah trends are strong in Fighting Games, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes not so much. It's important to remember that you are only mad about these game mechanics because you are getting hit by them, we typically love them when we are the ones using them smartly.
Fighting Game Lobbyists 2: Fight for the Clout
The street fighter fandom is like the most fascinatingly tangible examination of “nostalgia cycles” I have ever seen
In a way it's kinda cool cause not many game still have a dedicated fan base 10 years after the new game came out, but when it's just out of spite of the new thing ehh.
Ive always said i find it weird that other genres of video games someone will say the game is difficult or has a learning curve and its accepted whether they carry on or not. But when it comes to fighting games its always seen as some extreme hurdle to crossover when its just like learning any another game thats new to you.
I don't know if this is true for other people, but in my friend group, everybody got into the other hard genres as kids. My friends grew up playing Call of Duty and League of Legends when they had tons of free time to play and improve, your young brain is more ready to learn, and they were playing with each other so they kept each other motivated. I didn't really get into fighting games until the pandemic, and having all of that extra time helped me get over that new player hurdle, plus I was playing with a friend who was familiar with the genre but was learning the games at the same time I was, so he was only ever one step ahead of me. Now when I try to introduce friends to fighting games, they're too busy to put in the work to get to the point where they really click with the genre, and they bounce off after playing a few times, since the games seem too hard. But they forget that the shooters and MOBAs that they play were hard to get into as well, they just didn't care back then.
when 4 came out third strike players called it awful, untraditional, a dumbed down new version with gorilla gameplay. when 5 came out, 4 players called 5 the same thing. Now 6 is out, we're seeing it again. At some point you have to realise that you're probably going to have a clouded biased judgement on the thing you spent years mastering, and that you're trying to find fancy reasons around saying "i don't like having to learn new stuff"
I just miss gill such cool mechanics
that was back when games were honest, and took real skill. you'd never see anything like gill from third strike nowadays
@@a52productions are you people incapable of engaging seriously in any discussion or are you just shivering in your boots at the thought of having to defend your inane opinions?
@@a52productionsi think they meant sf5 gill
@@xetsuma don’t bother it was obvious what he meant. he’s just being facetious on purpose
@@eebbaa5560 have you considered that maybe people like having fun?
I can easily compare the following two unbelievable things in my mind:
1) There are DSP fans!
2) There are people who compare the sh1tfest that sfv was (especially in its first years) to sf6
Put me in with the JWong school of fighting game enjoyers because I've enjoyed pretty much every street fighter. (and FGs in general, even the bad ones I can find some fun in)
I def have my favorites but I've liked all of them for what they are. I embrace both the differences and how they're alike. Greatest series ever.
This vid changed my whole perspective on sf6
i'm just here for basket cat. leaving sated, ty.
The people who hated SFV now hate SF6 and praise SFV. This is eternal, that's just how it is.
I just tell people they sound like DSP and it makes 'em either angrier or shut up. I win both ways.
nah i don't think thats exactly true. SFV was overwhelmingly hated by a large majority of the entire community since launch and only gotten more favorable yet opinions years after while SF6 is overwhelmingly positive by the majority of people
@@joedatius it's all about perspective, right? From my experience the people that lose to me in SF6 tell me to go fight them in SFV which I didn't play at all. Back in SFV the same individuals would tell me to fight them in 3 or 4. I bet the overall picture is different but I can only speak for my experience.
@@ectothermic Well yes and no. Thing is SF6 is like SF III 3rd Strike, these SF games have a dominant system that completely changes the neutral game (compared to the previous games) For SF III 3rd Strike its the Parry system (SF6's Parry is far, far weaker), at high level play you constantly move, you go for parry fishing, baiting pokes, various mixups and the wakeup game changes a lot as well. For SF6 this is the Drive Rush mechanic, which means stealing turns, constantly pressuring the foe & SFT tier lists either revolve who has the best DR hit confirms, who has the most option to open up the defence & who can counter the DR system.
Thats also the reason why you have blowouts/perfects in both of these games, as every little mistake at the highest level can easily snowball a match.
To your point about difficulty not being the deciding factor for whether newer players get into a game, I think it becomes even more apparent when you look outside of video games. I'm involved in my yugioh scene, a card game that is so complex it's joked about being for lawyers only, and yet it gets enough turnout that if a tournament has less than a thousand players the results of that tournament are scrutinized based on low participation. You can't even argue that it's just nostalgia for the old anime, since the game as it is doesn't resemble the game depicted in the anime even a little. Some people will always bounce off of games where you can suck in front of a human opponent, but for the people who can overcome that hurdle, I think those players want complexity, since that gives games longevity.
I think difficulty does matter, but less so is it the difficulty of the Actions Of Gameplay and far more about the difficulty of Comprehension, which often isn't about the game, like the game's design can help or hinder, but having a friend or the desire to dive into community does a lot more for that, I've always liked YGO, but getting Decent at it really required having a friend who was more into it to help me polish play patterns and build more refined decks
And the complexity is important to that too, people want to comprehend and experience learning, and too much simplicity means that there's a lack of things to learn and comprehend, not enough nuance or interesting situations drags things down
Here's my maybe hot take. Simple games are significantly more hostile to new players than complex games because the skills to be good at simpler games (like footsies rollback edition) are very gradual and have a very slow return on investment in terms of study and practice to win rate or feel goods. More mechanically complicated games usually have some fucked up shit that you can grind out and improve at quickly to a point where you can execute in game, and this gives an immediate return on investment because you see the training paying off and get that moment of "i just fucked that guy up i'm a badass." This gives you some spice to your play.
the most insidious part about simple games is that they completely rob you of any enjoyment or motivation you might otherwise have in a game with real stakes or metrics of improvement. once you get to the intermediate stage, the process of playing is completely disillusioning for new players because they can actually see the ceiling. you don’t feel good about winning or “improving” because there’s such limited space for it by design, and it doesn’t even feel rewarding to beat people after a while. on the other hand, you’ll also be less motivated to grind because there just isn’t anything cool or interesting waiting for you at the top. if you watch pro-level sf6 the gameplay of the best players in the world is largely indistinguishable from the average 1700-1800 mr player simply due to how limiting the game is in terms of its ceiling and skill expression.
@@eebbaa5560ngl if that’s what you think you gotta look inward bro
@@eebbaa5560 @scrubquotesx caught one in the wild
@@the0therethan bro has responded to every comment on this video 💀
Also, every new player has trouble with their first combo. Knowing the game is easy only makes it worse when you fail at it. And also also, PvP games cannot truly be "easy" almost by definition, because your opponent sets the difficulty level.
That thumbnail is some scary stuff
Starting Street Fighter 6 in middle age:
Me: "Ah, the Drive Gauge has six blocks."
Opponent: *does Drive Impact seven times consecutively*
Me: "Well that makes sense."
No way. Everything was exactly like SF1 until the title I didn't like.
Yeah man i really do feel like dumbing down a product in an attempt to attract new players is a short-sighted pla- holy shit is that basket cat
I truly think you can identify the quality of the last fighting game by the amount of outrage when the next fighting game gets released. SF6 not getting a lot of outrage shortly after release says a lot about SF5.
completely baseless theory and impossible to prove. it was agreed upon by most people that sfv was actually in a decent state by its final season. it was only received unfavorably in its early seasons and has to deal with that unfair perception for most of its tenure.
@@eebbaa5560 If the input delay is being compared to Shaq Fu then the game clearly has a lot of problems.
@@giantdinoboy8264 not what i’m talking about
final season sfv was amazing tho you can't disagree, at least gameplay wise not online the online is doodoo
@@eebbaa5560 nah i get sf4 and sf3 shills all the time, sfv shills are a massive minority
8:36 Reminds me of how NASB2 disguised their drive gauge as slime
Yo, Injustice 1 callback! I wasn't ready 💀
Only thing I would like SF6 to move away from is throw loops (change them so they act more like Terry's throws) and change meterless corner carry combos or low resource combos that put opponent immediately in corner for virtually nothing.
Those are the only things. Im tired of people complaining (well mainly streamers) "hurr durr low forward drive rush" when the previous game literally had dumb stuff too like Sajam talked about.
In 4 I casually played with my friends and Arcade Mode, and liked watching tournament footage on UA-cam. In 5, I thought I was finally going to Git Gud at SF, but I just wasn’t that motivated to play it. And eventually I felt like it was more bland to watch. I think 6 is my favorite for playing and watching.
It's low risk, but high cost... which is usually the way investing works. Single hit confirming in 5 was low risk, high cost because you had to commit to staying in the neutral which, as I'm sure you all know, the place most people in ranked avoid like the plague.
Hey sajam a little off topic but have you heard of the game Rivals of aether 2? Just came out today if you've ever wanted to try a platform fighter that's the game for sure. Love your content! Keep doing what you do!
The last part going over deep metagames and difficulty is a good response to someone like Leon Massey, who simply wants to engage in the top level gameplay sooner because he doesn't feel like mechanical skill should serve as a barrier to him getting to interact with the top level players. Leon is a Grade A Scrub for this take and I'm glad you had something interesting to counteract that mentality.
I dont fw that tierlist shit but i need the sf jukebox tierlist, i need to know what to spend my wonka tickets on
bro just pick the ones with the music you like
I like that they have the balls to literally tear it down and make new games every time even though they are far and away the biggest and most famous fighting game franchise ever. So everybody just has thier favorite game
I started with alpha 3 but if we ever get ultra SF4 rerelease with rollback capcom my life is yours
Please show your cat in every video I’ll watch all of them
As an anime player, I'm happy to play a game where you're incentivized to commit to a buffer from your strong pokes. The punish counter gives me enough of a reason to be patient instead, and there's still plenty of confirming the situation to optimize your conversion/pressure. SF6 is just an incredibly well-rounded game.
basket cat is my favourite green day song
sometimes i give myself the treats....
I like the fireball wars i could have in 5. Cant do much of it in SF6. Fireball driverush is too rewarding 😢
Not exactly true about if your medium into DR is blocked and now you're out of half your resources, end of story. I play Ken, it leaves me plus in your face and I immediately put you into shenanigans, 50 50s, shimmy, and all the while my drive meter is coming back up even if you guessed correctly every time. If you guess wrong once you'll likely take decent or huge damage and will have less drive meter then me by the time we finally reset... even if you i initially blocked my medium into DR at the start of the interaction. It's a very fun mechanic, but doesn't make for a great game in my opinion. It's always worth the gamble of your drive meter unless you're going to burn out. Especially Ken, it comes back so fast.
Im just here for basket cat
I agree with most of the video except for the last part. SF6 is a great example of how additional complexity and mechanics can actually help with making games more accessible, if not downright reducing the skill gap between players. Asking a new player to hit confirm within SFV's 15-16f hitconfirm windows if they want to reliably start applying offense right away is totally unreasonable, but that same new player could understand how to buffer into Drive Rush and apply basic SF6 style strike/throw pressure almost immediately if he was told how to do it. SF4 had way less system mechanics than SF6, but there was still a lot more going on in terms of offensive Vs. defensive options in the former from the moment a character scored a knockdown and started whiffing buttons before jumping. Additional system mechanics don't always translate into depth, and even simpler games can still ask of its players to hone their fundamentals to such a degree that grinding it for years becomes interesting too. SF6 came up with a ton of new system mechanics, but basically all of them are designed with the intent of streamlining aspects of previous games that have long been present in the series, and I wouldn't say it's become a game "more worthy" of being played over the course of many years for that.
what exactly did SF4 has more in terms of "offensive vs defensive options" that SF6 lacks?
not really sure here what your argument is when deciding SF6 not being "worthy" of being played over the course of many years"
not like that really matters anyway since SF6 is far more consistently popular then any of these past games and hasn't been slowing down though in reality all of these games have people still playing them
I think you confuse difficulty of execution(which is where a lot of simple game states end up, just play harder better faster at a specific game state because the tools you have brook little other option) with depth of decisions and knowledge
Also you do know that SF6 hit confirms are even tighter yes?
@@syrelian I think the thing here people kind of ignore is that there are alot of different kinds of skill expression and complexity of what makes players good and the skill gap has simple changed
Execution isn't the only difficulty factor in a game friend. Sf6 has a pretty complex resource management system. Its a really hard decision making system.
I think an element of this is that higher-level players lose more often at SF6 because it has skill-based matchmaking that pairs you with opponents of similar skills more often. So they get mad. If you got to Grandmaster at SFV, you could trounce a bunch of Diamond-rated players.
I play Deejay so I don't even know what you're talking about when you talk about cmk drive rush unfortunately
whats frustrating to me is that DRC also chips your gauge for defending, especially if ur playing someone like manon which u get spammed dr'd, stopping a DR is so little reward with how much you can get out of it. Playing defensive is a detriment to your gauge and it feels horrible sometimes. Its just a feels like a death race when playing the game sometimes. The anxiety of having to do something proactive is put on the defending player and offensive player makes a very polarizing game. Dude just let me block please.
There's just so many games where the guy perfects me and the next round i get my opener and perfect them. I think in SFV, a perfect felt, well perfect. you just owned.
Melty Blood and UNI for me @10:40
I fully agree with not 'shallowing out the endgame', as you put it. When SF6 was first being announced and the mechanics were being laid out, Drive went a little over my head, and I figured people would use it to break the game wide open in a way I was never gonna be able to figure out...and I was fine with that, because Modern controls meant that, no matter how bad I was at the game, I was actually going to be able to PLAY it, unlike all the other fighting games I had tried and failed to pick up before. If the floor is accomodating, I'm not worried about lowering the ceiling.
lowering the ceiling is the worst thing that could ever happen to a game. games with nothing left to strive for once you reach the pinnacle of the gameplay are boring. you wouldn’t understand that because you couldn’t even get on the floor to begin with.
@@eebbaa5560 I think you missed the part where I said I actually don't want or need the ceiling to be lowered? Lol we're on the same side of this issue friend.
@@vaderwalks i misinterpreted your last sentence to mean the opposite. rereading it now, i can see that you meant “not worried” differently than how i read it.
@vaderwalks if you meant that, then rewrite it.
@@alondjeckto Calm down and re-read it. Specifically the very first sentence.
If the Souls games has thought me anything is that the monkey brain really likes it when you succeed after a struggle.
i like street fighter alpha 3
2:00 wait does boots have a big ass tail?
I try not to call the new game "scrubby" but as someone who did really enjoy SFV it hasn't exactly been fun to see people talk about SF6 like this savior of fighting games when all the stuff i liked about V was purposely excised from it.
Ive tried to like 6 but i feel like it's impossible to tame people in that game because of how enabled they are by the system mechanics. Feels like committing to a more solid gameplan is just worse than flinging yourself across the screen.
Parries also make stagger pressure feel worthless and completely eliminate the high/low game when pressuring someone. It also sucks to get throw looped and they're not fun to do.
I also just really enjoyed single hit confirming and it sucks that a thing i liked doing is just not there anymore.
More power to anyone who enjoys 6 but seeing all these "oh you only hate it cause it's the new game and/or you're losing" comments kind of ignore that you could just not find the mechanical emphasis of a fighting game fun and imo its fair to be bummed out by that if you liked the last one.
people say "oh you only hate it cause it's the new game and/or you're losing" because your arguments come off as someone who doesn't really understand the game enough to say these things. especially stuff like "parry eliminating the high/low" game which is just factually wrong. you can't always parry in every defensive situation and people use high/lows in ways to bait people into parrying in bad moments to punish them.
if you like SFV thats fine and all but don't be shocked when people don't take those arguments seriously if tell them these things
@@joedatius high/low is not used to bait parry because parry covers both. The problem with parry as it's implemented in SF6 is it boils defensive interactions into strike/throw most of the time and not what kind of strike.
If you simply chose to block in other SF games you still had to choose high/low as well as crossup/same side. You do not have to do this anymore. Parry is always correct vs any strike. If you read strike, you parry. What kind of strike is now irrelevant. Baiting and punishing the parry is obviously possible but has nothing to do with height of strike.
Bas Ket Cat! Bas Ket Cat! Bas Ket Cat!
Something I've been thinking about recently that I'd like to hear your thoughts about, is ways for fighting games to both teach AND remind people about surface level things directly, and how other games do it.
For instance, I'm a Destiny 2 victim, but I would never recommend it to to friend because the game SUCKS at telling you things. League is hard af, but I'd say it does a pretty good job of showing and telling you what your character's moves do at a surface level; you can hover over a move at any time and a hologram pops up that shows its range and whatnot. Or another example would be Valorant, and how characters throw smokes. The game literally just shows you where it's going to be.
I bring up this topic because I have friends who learn games very differently from me; they literally just play the game. They don't look up guides, watch videos, etc. I'm the complete opposite; I watch a bunch of videos and look for third-party resources. One of those friends has an interest in XRD, so I was stuck thinking and was frustrated about how a lot of games, even outside of fighting games, just don't tell you shit, at least in an accessible way.
Like how tf did people figure out gatling tables and move properties (i.e. special cancel) back in the day without sitting down and trying literally every move and every move after it 😭 Even in SF6, unless you go into training mode, turn on the cancel property setting, hit the dummy with every single move, you just won't know.
And then that led me to thinking about the arcade scene, and how pretty much every cabinet at the very least had that little graphic of every character's special moves with inputs. Really miss that, ngl.
how tf you talk so good, makes me feel like a frog with a smaller, dying frog stuck in its throat.
So in conclusion the answer is, again, play Soulcalibur.
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
It's interesting how it's always the old game that I was good at that took more skill and the new game that I am not as good at takes less skill and is more random. Funny how that works out.
insane copium if think the pros complaining about sf6 aren’t good at the game
Lol, it's literally just a fact, that SF6 is far easier all around than (dare I say it?) every other iteration before. Insane buffers on offense and defense alone are reason enough. When you can just mash your combo and get it 100% of the time, then there's something wrong.
@@plok3788 people were complaining about sfv being too scrubby then we got a game with literal autocombos and free extensions off of stray hits at the press of a button lol
@@eebbaa5560You made a sockpuppet account to make it seem like someone agreed with you, didn't you?
@@CF565 you can choose to believe that if it would soothe you. unlike you, i am not so insecure in my own beliefs that i need others to validate them.
AGREED
Idk man not everyone could hit confirm in sfv but everyone can drive rush js
Capcom money changes a man, that’s crazy.
I'm pretty sure Sajam has been saying this since forever. You got a video where he says the opposite? You can just say the title.
as a hardcore melee player for 10 years I know nothing about this stuff and it's so fascinating to see a different world :) subscribed!
4:01 I think you're right that developers like to develop away from the last game, but this was a poor example to demonstrate it. This sounds like you're just saying that the identity if MK is strong offense and the identity of Injustice is strong defense, which is very consistent identity for both series.
I don't think you understood what he was saying. the point is about how SF developers typically keep on changing things with mechanics and such while NRS is different in how they seem to go back and forth of how their games are played. its a juxtaposition not a full comparison.
more people should try blanka,, having a meterless safe cancel option on block is awesome
I get that this video isn't *really* about the twitter stuff but I feel like we glazed over it.
The argument that somebody is losing 'half of their resources for nothing' if the opponent dodges your mixup after a drive rush feels disingenuous. Unless you get DP'd out of the drive rush, as long as you start hitting buttons (or back up after your throw gets teched) you start getting meter back before the other guy gets to take his turn. He also gets drive gauge chipped if he's blocking. Consider the meter economy of cancel as well: I get two 'guesses' on offense in exchange for my 3 meters, which feels incredibly powerful for a resources that comes back over time. I've watched people in tournament matches do low forward into drive rush 3 times in first 15 seconds of a round, land a hit on the third low forward where they've burned themselves out, and now have the other guy in the corner facing wakeup pressure while they build their drive meter back.
I'm not trying to say it's 'free' pressure or side with the folks who are out here just trying to make everybody hate on SF6 but I feel like there's a reason so many people feel like the risk-reward is skewed in a way that feels worth complaining about. Maybe it's perfect the way it is. I don't know, man, I just play video games.
the arguments in favor of a game will always be disingenuous because no one is willing to engage with the possibility that something that they like may have issues in its design, which sf6 does.
i like sf6 and street fighter at its core, but people like sajam and his little fans are addicted to gaslighting people who aren’t like yippee random knockdown into rps into two-touch! people just act like they have the moral high ground for always faking positivity and never criticizing anything and they want the entire fgc to agree with their echo chamber.
the bottom line is that if capcom doesn’t change something about the drive system soon, it’s going to get really old for everyone, even the people glazing it. the fact that risk-reward is skewed against the defender in every interaction plus the fact that this game drops new patches and characters at a snail’s pace has already put me off of the game to the point where i can’t play it for more than a week at a time without needing to take breaks.
Dude you didn't watch the video if you said this. He talked about why the SF6 is designed around drive-gauge. He talked about why spending 3 meter needs to be good, but not too good. Also your comments is just plain wrong.
Hitting buttons after? Yeah you get two buttons then it isn't your turn. After throw tech? You just lost -3 meter.
Now you have less meter to DP, less for Drive Reversal, less for combos. And no, it doesn't just regenerate in 5 seconds, you don't play if you say that. Meter generates most when you advance/hit your opponent.
Some characters have really strong pressure and bulldoze, yes its difficult to check. I get how people don't like that aspect. But it's not even as good as Drive rush + Fireball and you talk like 2 guesses wins you the round.
The video isn't even about "drive rush mixup". Its about hit-confirms and the difference between SF5 & SF6 neutral/game plan. FFS.
Sajam never admits the faults with a game, he always says " the game is good and balanced and if you think there is an issue its a skill issue"@eebbaa5560
@@eebbaa5560 Correct. I checked again the content drops for SF5 which initially had a really weak roster of 16 characters (4 new) with many favorites missing. However each season added 6 characters. With 5 seasons, the 16-deep roster eventually became 46-deep!
Now SF6 had a 18-deep roster (with more well known characters, and 6 new). However SF6 has only 4 characters per season (total 26 characters for 2 seasons). But! the Drive Rush mechanic somewhat homogenizes characters. Even with strong/famous DLC characters arriving as DLCs, there are old characters who are boring (E.Honda) or even outright akward (Dhalsim).
but... but... it took me twenty times more time to get mediocre at quake movement than to be solid at like five tactical shooters. Or I missed the point of the example lol
I peefer sf6 over 5 due to its ranking system.
Hey sajam I love you and worship everything you've ever said but I have a point I'd like to propose:
To me, it is inherently fun to defeat my opponent because I hit them with the right move at the right time at the right place, I get 0 satisfaction for "using my meter to do a drive reversal", this doesn't feel like a fighting game, it feels like resource management.
I understand the need to change up the formula with each game but on my most primal timmy instincts, it's not fun to think of exchanges as "well at least he lost half his meter, now I can slowly pressure him out of the rest and then threaten to drive impact him" I want to PUNCH THIS MAN and I want it to land because I baited out his attack.
I really liked tekken 7 because outside of rage most of the game still stuck to what I believe to be the fundamentals of a fighting game but now with tekken 8 adding a ridiculously powerful install for every character it feels like turning the game from a complex mindgame into PRESS OR NO PRESS whenever it's activated and rather than playing neutral in a way to hit my opponent, I'm playing in a way to try safely activate heat so I can turn the game into PRESS OR NO PRESS.
I liked ducking highs to launch people, no I would not like to activate drive to get plus frames to get a guaranteed mixup, this should be something reserved for specific character archetypes. I also don't want half my power locked behind a short window, I'd like access to it at all times thanks.
Any thoughts on the idea that meter management is boring as a concept mr jam?
meter management is fun as a concept but everything else you said is right for other reasons. playing a character like zato or ABA is fun because of the meter, playing sf6 is not. meter management is interesting in a vacuum, but it completely subsumes and perverts the core gameplay of sf6 in practice. the drive gauge, specifically drive rush, warps the entire game around itself and makes it feel worthless every time you play, win or lose. the game is always boiled down to luck with the drive system, rather than jockeying for space and navigating complex interactions like it’s supposed to be. also never glaze someone before disagreeing with them again it’s not becoming
You have figured out that you have specific fighting game tastes and not every fighting game caters to you, I think this makes you top 0.01% intelligence when it comes to fgc discourse.
@@eebbaa5560 Glad to hear I'm not alone in this sentiment, most of my understanding of the fgc comes from either content creators or my few friends who play, I refuse to engage with twitter "discourse". I'm glad you brought up that in specific instances it can be fun which I agree with, I also don't mind install characters but in t8 it feels like every character is effectively an install character.
Also, I do genuinely love Sajam's vids and a lot of his views and takes have been eye opening and entertaining to me and I think more people should hear him out on what he has to say. I'm allowed to glaze someone I've watched for like 5+ years. As a treat :3
I just think drive rush is ugly, aesthetically, the green sweat is disgusting, I wish I looked cooler
I wish sfv had better net code I miss + on block normals without drive rush
i might be the only person in the universe that likes sfv.
I love SFV. I just wish the netcode wasn't dogwater
As a diehard sf4 player, I love watching sf5 over sf4 easily.
Since I was in the “sf4 never dies” group, I would sometimes be like “did you watch sf5 this weekend? It was pretty good!”
And then they will answer me with “that game has no skill, it’s not street fighter...” while they were playing Ibuki with unblockable, or do some super cheese strats and I’m like “ok”
the video is about a group of people who love sfv arguing with a group of ppl who love sf6. how do u think ur alone in liking it?
It’s a game that has a lot of stuff I like, but the game terrified me every time I played it. Felt like going into a lion’s den with how interactions played out.
SFV is a good game but it took a LONG time to get there. Though one thing is still unforgivable to me, KEN WTF DID THEY DO TO YOUR FACE MAN!?😱
That UNDER NIGHT IN-BIRTH influence ❤
9:52 I think that is pretty reductive, weak players like tactical shooters because they can one shot people if they have the element of surprise, it makes them feel like they have more of a chance. The movment is slow so they don't have to worry about excution as much. In an arena shooter like quake the sheer skill difference in movement alone means that it's nearly impossible for a less skilled player to even hit an opponent.
In general the areas of improvement in slower clunky grounded shooters are much less visible so new player have less perception of the skill gap between them and experienced players. It makes tactical shooter much more approachable to casual audiences.
Game genre I like: hard game where skill difference matters
Game genre I don't like: watered down for scrubby noobs and casuals
@@TheUbernuck try again except make a real argument this time instead of cowering behind your thin veil of shitty humor
@@TheUbernuck Not necessarily, I think the inaccessible nature of DM arena shooters has really been one of the primary factors as to why they have nearly disappeared.
They are objectively a much worse idea for a purely profit motivated developer if you consider scale, compare the active casual player base of games like CS or Valorant to the biggest arena shooters like quake live or Diabotical Rogue.
@@evilded2 If inaccessible games made people not wanna play them, Deadlock would be dead in the water, there's gotta be some other reason. My take is that deathmatch is too boring for competitive gamers, even CoD doesn't use that anymore except for casual modes.
I find generally that the gap is still quite apparent, but that the skill floor is lower, which sounds weird but like, feeling clearly outmatched and oppressed happens either way, but the floor to strike back is lower, rather than the gap feeling smaller
Because what really crunchs people out of those situations isn't the inability to keep up, its the inability to feel like they can take actions or anticipate situations at all, its why teaching defense is so hard, because defense is, to most people, not an overt action, but rather a state of semi-passive inaction
I just don’t like DR because I feel homogenized the entire cast but I also hated V system because all the swaggy combos were locked behind V trigger
Sajam could you talk about doom posting how it ruins a new player wanting to join? Seeing dizzy coming out in guilty gear makes me want to get into that game but seeing all the doom posting on twitter really discourages me to wanting to play the game. I feel like every fighting game discourse these days is just pure doom posting.
Twitter is designed to reward people for doomposting so I don't know how to solve the issue.
stop using twitter.
Stay off twitter, and try to find a friend or a few friends who are also new to the game to play with. As a new player, nothing that people are dooming about will affect you. And honestly a lot of it is overblown. I got into Strive at launch, played Faust who was barely a functional character back then, and had a blast. Just focus on your own enjoyment and improvement in the game and don't worry about other people's opinions.
You really shouldn't the fps genre to prove your point. Most the successful ones are successful due to reputation of the company (riot, blizzard, valve) or they have a legacy (cod, csgo)
this is factually wrong. big name companies fail all the time. If concord came from Valve it would of still flopped
Nrs does too but they make them more dogshit each time
Not only do they change the mechanics for worse most of the time, but they even keep changing the inputs of some classic moves for seemingly no reason.
What do you think if Capcom makes multiple Street Fighter games based on the respective mechanics, e.g., Street Fighter Alpha 4, Street Fighter III Fourth Something, MEGA Street Fighter IV, Street Fighter V Dash Upper, etc.?
The original poster was SPITTING
10:13 this was my biggest gripe with Strive, especially coming from the older titles. The things you could discover with your character are so limited and the game heavily dictates how you should play in so many situations, like the wall mechnic for instance, really cements the impression of how much Arcsys actually took inspiration from SFV and are in the era of simplification, homogenization and streamlining in order to appeal to a more mainstream audience.
Not to mention the huge reduction of the general option and decision space for every character, making them more boxed in and similar to each other than ever before.
Things like the reduced and pretty much same gatling routes for every character, reduced moveset, way more similar and "boxed in" frame data across the entire cast, every button serving a similar purpose for every character e.g. c.S as your best combo and pressure starter, everyone having the limited dash cancels which lock you into the animation on c.S and 5K, same things for jump cancels etc.
And this doesn't even factor in other issues like the game making so many things easily accessible there is not much to "strive" for (pun intended) besides of grinding matchups. That's it.
I know this is edited, but somehow the message of the two halves of this video seem to be different lol. I think overall the takeaway is that "difficulty" is very different depending on perspective, and in retrospect (and especially when things are out of the competitive spotlight) the view on those games are seen in a much different light when appreciated for what they are instead of what they're not. I think overall what Sajam here and others are talking about when they say "easy" is that they just don't want something that isn't stimulating; lots of readily available surface options creates the perception of lots to do from the ground level (which gets into the idea of why people say they want more interactions in a given match, which the last video seemed somewhat opposed to.)
If there's one thing about the trends of fighting games that I'd love to see reversed, it's how much more limited, horizontal, and stilted movement has become in any given niche, whether if that's for perceived spectator appeal, to compensate rollback connections, or as a balance to how they want offensive rewards to go.
For every Street Fighter iteration, it feels as though half the game is dedicated solely to "correcting" an issue people had with the past title, and the other half is dedicated to innovating something completely new. More so than probably any other fighter, they've been able to normalize the division of the community through different directions, which we've seen go over horribly (socially) for most every other franchise lol.
The reward on cr mk Dr is, either damage with instant corner carry into a safe jump meter build or block into a guess, which will build you meter if you guess correctly, and if you guess incorrectly more than like your opponent busted out using 2 bars of there own, so yes I might have used 3 but there's a big chance I you used 2 to stop my offense, or you guessed wrong on my shimmy attempt, cr mk Dr is in favor of the offensive player
You don't need to spend 2 bars to escape, tech a throw or perfect parry will also end the situation. Or just blocking the aggressive player will be pushed out unless they risk a throw.
You basically repeated what sajam set in the video lol
You kinda need something to be advantageous for the 3 bars to be worth spending, that’s sorta self-evident.
In the broad scope, spending half of someone’s Drive is a huge cost. I don’t think the reward itself is the issue, but the accessibility of getting that reward (cancellable crMKs often having very sizeable hit boxes for example) means that you fundamentally have more/easier opportunities to do it in a match.
@@dylanwins9839 lmao I was typing this as the video was playing
@@EarthLordCJ yea I understand, my main gripe is when you get to cr mk range I'm like "dam I have to guess for my life right now" because you get to spend meter to put me in a shimmy situation even though you aren't even close to me lol
Too simple will lead to too linear and very predictable gameplay
old game good new game bad
I love how, when he recapped the history of modern netherrealm games, he doesn’t even bring up MK1 at all
If you liked SFV thats cool.
but its been over 7 fucking years man.
let it go.
Love sf5
2MK driverush by itself is fine.
Raw driverush eating inputs, so its really freakin hard to check it - complete bs
Drive rush eating inputs is not true at all… skill issue get good
@@medina2407ify go learn how game works, skill issued
Get good. Checking it qnd capitalize on that needs skill. Eating inputs 1% of the time isn't the reason you can't win... Believe me
@@ultragalacticlightkick862 sure bro, sure *sarcasm*
Disagree with your assessment on complex fighting games vs other genres. NOTHING comes close to the demands fighting games have. There are people who just won't play them because the learning curve is too high (fair point for someone's time and hobby preferences). No other genre has the engagement and things to manage second by second that fighting games have, that mental stack. Starcraft would be the only other thing I'd say is comparable.
Have you ever tried to get a non-fighting game friend into them? There are things you take for granted learning over YEARS that they struggle with. Hell just combo execution alone some people straight up can't do. The notion of "practice" there are gamers who consider that a waste and boring and would never practice.
Then you have all the nuances and mechanics of how frames work, recovery, links/cancels, multiple gauge management, anti-airs, corner pressure, etc etc etc. So many ways things can interact that you need to learn.
No fighting game has ever retained players long term like shooters or mobas have. Most burn out and the game holds 5-10K concurrent of the diehard fans. They ARE the most demanding complex genre in gaming. Even deadlock does not have the need for focus and constant action fighting games have. Its certainly higher for a moba but nowhere near the constant action and management in a fighting game match or # of things to consider or be aware of.
If someone doesn't want to commit the time and effort to get into a fighting game that's their choice. Its a demanding genre and hobby and one of the few genres of games where practice actually is required to improve. A LOT of people do not like that notion in their hobby (again that's fine its just entertainment).
I think you take things for granted with learning new fighting games like all your past experience in them. That matters. Startup frames, links/cancels, managing meter, oki, corner pressure... These are universal and can be very very intimidating for a new player new to fighting games. We all know and learn it because we love it, but they are complex hard concepts to get across for completely new people.
idk... like you said, mobas or smth like Starcraft have a ton of apm and required knowledge/experience to play. It would be a lot easier for me to "teach" a friend GG Strive at a basic level than Dota 2, for example.
@@gardevoirdude7493 I don't know if I agree with that. Think about fighting games vs mobas. Mobas have a LOT of downtime, or just click a point and wait for your character to move. I am not trying to trivialize mobas, but the sheer amount of interactions, mechanics, and moment to moment decision making, management, APM, the only comparable to that is Starcraft.
Its really about that constant action, constant things to manage, things to consider. There is no break in a fighting game for your brain. There are TONS of breaks, lulls, downtime in a moba. Even laning and last hitting isn't the same complexity as what a fighting game has going on in the moment.
I think you could convey the goals of a fighter easily to your friend vs what needs to happen in a moba (laning/last hitting/team grouping/ganking), but explaining all the decisions, things to manage, combo practice and execution, that's an entirely different level.
@@thepunisherxxx6804 they aren't the same yeah but saying its not as complex as fighting games is just nonesense. they are complex in different ways. you can play ANY fighting game just by jump ins and sweeps and do fine against alot of people. go look at Diaphones guide to ranked play and you can see just how simple fighting games can be if you stopped obsessing over combos and and frame data. what you're trying to argue is just reaction time not complexity but then you're ignoring FPS like Counterstrike which arguably requires just as much if not more technical skill as any fighting game due to the skill ceiling of aiming.
I really dont understand this logic of downtime = less complex.
Chess has downtimes would you consider chess not complex?