Was Genesis Taken From Pagan Legends?
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2021
- Some critics claim Genesis 2-3 was written by borrowing from pagan legends found throughout Mesopotamia. But how much evidence supports an alleged connection?
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Video on the Genesis Flood and Gilgamesh:
• Did Genesis Copy the E...
Sources:
Tryggve Mettinger - The Eden Narrative
Encyclopaedia Judaica: Second Edition
G. Herbert Livingstone - The Pentateuch in Its Cultural Environment
Richard Hess & David Toshio Tsumura - I Studied Inscriptions From Before the Flood
Mark Chavalas & K. Lawson Younger Jr. - Mesopotamia and the Bible
H.E.M. Braakhuis - Xbalanque's marriage: A commentary on the Q'eqchi' myth of sun and moon
Douglas Bush - Mrs. Bennet and the Dark Gods: The Truth about Jane Austen
Geza Roheim - Australian Totemism
Steven - Hijmans - The Sun Which Did Not Rise In the East
David Carr - The Formation of Genesis 1-11
Thorkild Jacobsen - The Treasures of Darkness: A History of Mesopotamian Religion
#Archaeology #Bible #Israel - Розваги
If multiple cultures have the same stories than maybe those stories actually happened? Why is that never a possibility? Why does everything have to be "sourced" or "borrowed"? 🤔
Because if those myths were Truth, then that would imply the Gods are real, and obviously christians wouldn't want to admit that...
good point
Because Jews are known for lying and plagiarizing
Probably because so many people who called themselves "Christians" were dishonest, and stole things.
Because the bible is a book of plagiarized ideas ... and u need medication
One possible reason for similarities between Bible and other local texts: Genesis could have been written as a response to the myths of local cultures, in order to bring out the nature of Yahweh, as he had revealed it to the writers. So its the differences that indicate what Yahweh is like. Example: sun and moon, normally deities, are not mentioned till the 4th day of creation and then not named they are just dismissed as lights in the sky, underlining that Yahweh is the ONLY God. So the similarities are a deliberate literary device used by the writer(s)
I'd recommend anyone who thinks Genesis is just plagiarizing other myths to actually read these other myths and see how similar they really are.
Anyone who actually read Gilgamesh would see that it actually compliments Genesis since, when Gilgamesh goes out looking for immortality he hears of this person ‘blessed by the Gods’ who had survived a great flood.
Well, if Noah had lived to be over 900 and everyone else was now dying a lot younger then it would seem to me that you might think Noah had obtained immortality.
Not plagiarizing, but updating and offering what the Spirit of Truth has to say.
The Canaanite ones, which this video didn't mention at all.
@@kymmoore853 That doesn't mean Genesis is complementing Gilgamesh.
If both had appeared at the same time then possibly, but Gilgamesh itself is based on older Mesopotamian flood myths that make a lot more sense in context of the Tigris and Euphrates flood history than Genesis ever did.
When one tale is much, much older than Genesis (and written down no less) but has very similar themes you have to admit it's a lot more likely that it is simply plagiarism, especially considering the proximity of Israel to Mesopotamia, not to mention the likely possibility that some of the tribes of Israel were actually formed partially of other Near Eastern individuals whose legends, myths and folklore were in time integrated into a singular Israelite narrative.
@Kenny Hill how would you know, the Genesis flood myth could have been around, passed by word of mouth, for millennia before Gilgamesh was written, with texts of this age it’s impossible to identify anyone plagiarising anyone else unless you’re looking at it solely through a modern perspective.
skeptics love to accuse us of cherry picking but they thinks that they can do the same to discredit our faith and also think that's no problem
Why does cherry picking have to be bad?
Why can't the Hebrew pirests have cherry picked the bits of Ancient Near East myth that sounded best to them and just added their own literary flair to it?
That is how most authors work.
Writing origiinal works of literature is hard - you write what you know most of the time, and considering the proximity of Israel and Judah to so many other cultures the coincidence is far too in your face to ignore the probability that they simply plagiarised some of it.
If you cannot even consider the possibility then you shouldn't really get pissy about 'cherry picking' arguments of others because you sound far too close minded to your dogma to even hear them out in the first place.
@@mnomadvfx I don't even think that IP needed to make this video because if online critics like you were half as smart as you claim to be then you'd know that such arguments already lost steam in the middle ages due to their lack of evidence and are simply just being rediscovered by online critics.
If they did cherry pick, then critics like you would have evidence that they did and you'd be throwing that evidence in our faces. The fact that you have to resort to cherry picking similarities to pagan myths and use anecdotes while ignoring all the differences and scholarship that has already piled against such stupidity simply just shows your ignorance and closed mindedness.
@@stephendianda1543 nailed it. If in fact Genesis is true we would expect the ancient world to have traces of a universal knowledge of such ancient events and corrupted by various leaders/priesthoods on a will to power and co-opting the ancient prophesy (seed of the woman) formatted in the star signs (Gen 1.14)/zodiac/mazzaroth (cf Virgo/bethulah with spica/zera) of a universal savior and applying it to themselves and corrupting the details. We see the same thing in ancient Israel (when the north split and created their own facsimile religion with various details changed) or with the corruption of the details/interpretations of the NT (for example, Mormonism with their own priesthood and temple and book, etc) and now in realtime with the corrupt media (and alt media) creating false narratives for their respective audiences usually run by international masonic societies which use all these ancient and various mystery religions, etc as tools of control with their trolls online spreading antichrist propaganda for the eventual rise of their new masonic temple in Jerusalem with a new age Christ to rule over the nations (cf Rev 11.8, 17.18), etc etc. A Jerusalem Post article from 2017 lets the cat out of the bag on a secular level which I touch on in the video, *The Antichrist Kingdom for Dummies*
@@stephendianda1543
Would you say they are different or similar? You are the one cherrypicking ignoring the similarities between these myths. The differences is accounted as slight variations to not appear as plagiarism. The differences were not left out. 🙂
@@stephendianda1543
How do you explain the similarities? Why do some details are incredibly specifically the same? Why don't you answer that? We answered already why there are variations or differences.
I really doubt they were actually thinking about copying stories, simply we have similar stories that may have a common origin, and evolved differently in each society. For example, the Twin Heroes myth is very prevalent among precolombian cultures, in the Taino culture of the Caribbean it evolved into quadruplets. I doubt the taino said "ok let's take this Mayan myth but instead of two, we'll have FOUR HEROES hehe, chackmate mayans". Instead, the Mayan and Taino myths have the same origin
You wouldn't need to explain to an American that a civil war happened, you'd just skip right to your point about it. Same in Genesis. They share common context because they assume knowledge of common true events. However some of these examples here of correlations are just bad syncretism.
Awesome work, IP! I somehow seen this argument sprung up again lately among online skeptics, so good to see it addressed also from your channel.
Thank you
The other pagan comparisons didn't work is probably why!
@@InspiringPhilosophy What do you think of the concept Universal Salvation and the Christian arguements for it?
It's happening.
Kipp Davis
.
@Digital Hammurabi and I are doing a tag-team take-down of @InspiringPhilosophy's recent video, "Was Genesis Taken from Pagan Legends?
This is very odd. Who keeps deleting my reply?
No, Pagan Legends were taken from Genesis.
But if they are older stories then how? i mean yes i understand that they could be but how would they have known?
“Earliest written records” is how this is usually framed when discussing which religion is oldest but this doesn’t give you any insight into which is oldest. It only gives you which one has the older surviving written text which is not the same thing.
These cultures may not have borrowed from one another but any similarities that show up multiple times throughout different cultures may very well be because those stories were passed down from before the cultures split.
Yes, in my opinion these similarities are explained by humanity's common origin in a single ancestral tradition that descends from Adam, in which case Genesis would be the original purified version of the pagan myths.
So, Genesis would not have its source in the pagan myths, but the pagan myths would be different branches of an original version. And this would explain the presence of converging narrative elements in totally disconnected places like the existence of a primordial God who always has the same attributes that is "replaced" by lesser deities, the man and woman who are exiled from a paradisiacal state and expectation of a warrior born of a unique and blessed female goddess such as Horus, Marduk and Zeus.
This ministry had come to my attention at a perfect time in my life. I am closer to God now than I think I’ve ever been because of Inspiring Philosophy
That is wonderful to hear. I am glad I could help.
I also hope you read your bible and not just listen to apologists all day
@@jonathansoko5368 Just reading the Bible does not avail much if someone does not have the toolkit necessary to effectively interpret it. The Bible was written to an ancient culture, and scholars are needed who have been trained in interpretation of said cultures to share their toolkits with others. You can’t build a house without the right toolkit, so why can you read the Foundation for God’s Plan without such a toolkit? The answer is you can’t.
@@jonathansoko5368 Without a doubt I also read my Bible more and also can make much more sense of it because of apologists like IP
Keep following Christ.
Oh man, if I had a penny for every time someone comes to me with this "genesis is a copy of other culture writings" I would be rich jajaja...
Great video brother...
P.S
I'm still waiting for that video about how people before adam, would continue to soul build after they died.
Love you man 😇😇😇
Thank you, and thank you for becoming a channel member.
I don’t know if there would be enough material to do a video on that other topic.
@@InspiringPhilosophy jeje ok don't worry about it... maybe a post or a small paragraph with your opinion might do it... blessings😁😇
Que bueno verte aqui! Que opinas de Unseen Realm de Mike Heiser??
@@martinecheverria5968 hola, Martin!!... si, tengo unseen realm y esta buenisimo... aunque hay cosas en las qie difiero pero esta bueno como quiera... Dios te bendiga
@@DimensiondelosSecretos que bueno! Dios te bendiga tambien hermano!
I love the illustrations used in this video. I know a lot of work already goes into citing written sources for everything you mention, but sometimes I wish you would give the sources for the art as well.
At the heart of it all is this: God redeeming man and giving us a way to access Him: Christ. God may have very been orchestrating similarities to possibly lead future generations to Christ. The aim of all history is to draw people to Him.
what's with the obscurity then? he could have just made it plain and clear, both in the times of the author of Gilgamesh and the author of Genesis. You don't make sense. You just forcing things to cover holes or absurdity.
Very good question. Maybe to possibly give them a hint of humanity's true origins and how they need a real Deliverer. My comment makes sense and I don't see how I did what you just implied because if I did my comment wouldn't be clear. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Please explain how God orchestrated the similarities in order to bring future generations to Christ. This is not something I've considered.
Well, one is based on myth. The other though is based on real events. Real Euphrates, Tigris, etc. in the world. At the heart of both accounts is humanity's true origins; however, one entails God doing it all while the other shows the gods doing it.
Future generations later reveal just how real the revelation of Scripture is. We all are in it to either please God or to please self. We all fail in meeting that standard. Every culture utilizes community in some way and holds each accountable. If it wasn't for that, the human race would crumble.
South Africa and Australia have similar languages, political structures, and values.
Clearly South Africa stole this from the Australians.
Obviously Britain is the third factor behind both. Similarly, these ancient people lived in similar theological contexts. Similar worldviews. It's narrow to say one borrowrd from the other when in fact it's more likely they adopted widespread views into more culturally specific contexts.
If Genesis is in fact true we would expect the ancient world to have traces of a universal knowledge of ancient events and corrupted by various leaders/priesthoods on a will to power and co-opting the ancient messianic prophesy given to the parents of mankind (seed of the woman) formatted in the star signs (Gen 1.14)/zodiac/mazzaroth (cf Virgo/bethulah with spica/zera) of a universal savior and applying it to themselves and corrupting the details. We see the same thing in ancient Israel when the north split and created their own facsimile religion with various details changed or with the corruption of the details/interpretations of the NT (for example, Mormonism with their own priesthood and temple and book, etc) and now in realtime with the corrupt media (and alt media) creating false narratives for their respective audiences usually run by international masonic groups which use all these ancient and various mystery religions, etc as tools of control with their trolls online spreading antichrist propaganda for the eventual rise of their new masonic temple in Jerusalem with a new age Christ to bind and rule over all nations (cf Rev 11.8, 17.18), like Nimrod tried with the tower of Babel which led to the splitting of tongues which is how the ancient knowledge spread and further degraded into chaos of which Abraham was called out of to set the record straight, etc etc.
A Jerusalem Post article from 2017 lets the cat out of the bag on a secular level which I touch on in the video, *The Antichrist Kingdom for Dummies* for your viewing pleasure.
good reasoning
I would say they derived their languages and political structures from a third previous country, but I realize that would just be silly excuses to justify my belief South Africa didn't steal from the Australians
Your work breaking this stuff down is awesome. I love learning about this
Nope.. he self refuted christianity .
now use the same reasoning with christianity and you will realize why the the hebrew bible have nothing to do with fulfilled prophecies in the new testament .
the new testament writers where using the same reasoning by applying out of context verses from the hebrew bible to a character(jesus) to say it was a fulfilled prophecy 'parallels,typologies,midrashic method'. for example:Isaiah 53, mathew 2:15-17. etc,etc.
@@descartergosum Fufilled prophecy goes far beyond similar details. And even if you don’t find fulfilled prophecy convincing that’s not the only basis for belief in Christianity. Confer with minimum facts argument, which establishes the resurrection.
@@bman5257 that's the worst
@@descartergosum And yet your profile pic is a Catholic.
@@bman5257 so?
I would say that Genesis definitely alludes to Sumerian stories in order to repudiate their theology. Everyone who heard the Noah flood story for the first time would have already believed in a flood. The Noah story alters the reason the flood occured to correct the theology.
The Sumerians and Babylonians knew about Jahweh, but they didnt believe he was the One and Only true God. So Jhwh in the Torah claims he is going to prove he is the only God, by picking the weakest of the people, the Jews, who were slaves, and making them the most powerful people in the world. And that is exactly what happened. Babylon dissapeared and the Jews became the most powerful people in the world. I dont think that even most atheists would deny that. We all know there is something special about them.
@@brilliantbeaches5389 In what way are they the most powerful people in the world? There is nothing special about them, they are people like everyone else.
@@brilliantbeaches5389 jews are not the most powerful people in the world.
IP's series on Biblical archeology made me conclude that Gen 1-11 must be "echoes" of events that go back way beyond the end of the last major end of the ice age 10k years ago.
Combined with the statements in this video, that most likely there was some sort of "common knowledge", I also think the Hebrews told their version to repudiate the Gilgamesh epic.
Both stories have their origin from past events, both tried to explain those events. But ultimately only the hebrew version survived the test of time.
@@brilliantbeaches5389 Except God never chose anyone called Jews. and I challenge you to prove otherwise. Please post even one statement from the scriptures purported to be from God where he chooses these Jews you speak so highly of. I'll wait.
To me, this is very similar to how parallels have been drawn between Jesus and pagan deities. Similar motifs and themes can be found, but no evidence of direct influence or plagiarism. Why can’t cultures have independent traditions and stories?
One slight of hand i always hear is " the epic of gilgamesh predates the Bible so cased closed". Thats not true. The earlist known written story of the epic of gilgamesh predates the earliest know written Biblical account. That doesn't make the story older it makes the copies older. Historically the religion of Judaism predates the epic of gilgamesh and they have always claimed to have the Torah wether in written or oral form. So its a deceptive statement.
@@awakeningfaith2290 You are correct, it is somewhat deceptive, or at least dubious. The comparison with the Epic of Gilgamesh and Genesis however, seems to always be the deluge narrative. I hope to see @InspiringPhilosophy tackle the idea that Genesis 1 and 2 is adapted from the Enuma Elish (i.e., the creation structure and days, the primordial watery chaos, and the apparent remnants of a chaoskampf narrative in Genesis, Job, and Psalms).
Because we are all fairly social
" but no evidence of direct influence or plagiarism"
You can say the same about modern music composers though in their influences stemming from the classics.
Except in this case the parallels are far too close to be coincidence - especially when you look at the oldest versions of the Mesopotamian flood myth yet found written in clay that far predate any known emergence of Israel and Judah (and therefore the myths they based their religion on).
@@awakeningfaith2290 "The earlist known written story of the epic of gilgamesh predates the earliest know written Biblical account"
The EoG is old, but there are Mesopotamian flood myth inscriptions that FAR predate the earliest found versions of EoG.
Those inscriptions are so old that their influence on cultures so close to Mesopotamia such as Israel and Judah would be clear to anyone not completely clouded by the fog of dogma to reason out the likely origin of them being far more likely Mesopotamian than closer to the Mediterranean.
So, the timing of Gilgamesh getting the plant was after the Flood, and from a place suggesting that the plant was already inaccessible by normal means. Sounds more like it refers to a later event than the garden of Eden
Incredible work as usual
The comparison of Mayan mythology to Greek mythology was A+. I wish I'd seen this before talking to you last night as I would have asked you to make it on the show. :)
The hard work you put to make all these videos Ali's really impressive
I swear i have dyslexia, every time i write all, I write Ali. Happy byram to you.
I remember first time watching a video from your channel, it was Job's story. Made me research more and study the scriptures diligently. Thanks Inspiring Philosophy! God bless you!
I stopped having problems with Job after reading some Puritan views that it may not be a literal narrative. It is wisdom literature and there really isn't any compelling reason to take it literally. I mean ruining a man and killing off his children in some kind of a deal with Satan? Oh, then there is the problem of Satan being allowed in the throne room of a Holy God was also a problem that didn't jibe with other verses.
I enjoy IP's videos for the most part, but I thought his interpretation of Job was mistaken. Usually it is the prosperity preachers that put all the blame on Job.
@@MountainFisher Check out Michael Chriswell's documentary Trusting God in the Storm. He's basically a modern day Job, and God used those circumstances for Michael's good.
@@DankusMemicus wasn't very good for the people who died horribly I guess.
@@adamplentl5588 They got free tickets to heaven.
@@DankusMemicus good. They can spend some quality time with their murderer. How great. Smh.
Great work as always IP
It always seem to me that the epic of Gilgamesh was influenced by the Genesis narrative or at least earlier myths that match up to the Genesis account. Gilgamesh meats Ziusudra who is practically Noah. Ziusudra survived the global flood by boat and he has knowledge of a plant that can grant immortality in the bottom of the ocean. If Eden was seen as a physical place then in the minds of ancient people it would make sense Eden was flooded and was still located deep in the ocean. Ziusudra who was the only survivor of the flood would have knowledge of this. Abraham was from the Mesopotamia and though I don’t think Genesis copied Gilgamesh, I do believe they draw water from the same well of information.
Mate it is a proven fact that the epic of Gilgamesh came first. Sorry to burst your bubble
@@anthony7960 you are not understanding the point I am making. I didn’t say Genesis came first but what I am saying is that there were likely Sumerian myths which correlates and overlaps with the Genesis account and that instead of Genesis copying Gilgamesh, it is more likely that both Genesis and Gilgamesh get their narrative from an even older mythology that predates both. It wasn’t that Genesis copied Gilgamesh but rather both authors sharing the same culture and familiar with the same folklore. Some parts of the Epic Gilgamesh fit into the broader context of the Genesis narrative. Which is not to say Genesis was first but as I said Sumer had a very similar broader worldview as the early Hebrews. Abraham came out of the Mesopotamia so it would be expected that these world views would be similar
@@MichaelStratton1993 seems like an assumption based on no hard evidence to validate an already held opinion.
@@MichaelStratton1993 So what you're saying is the genesis mythology is STILL a copy of another mythology's narrative. good to know.
I remember an atheist trying to say that the Genesis account was based on the one from Gilgamesh called “The Gardens of the Edin,” yet when I went on a bunch of websites, I couldn’t find anything like that. I emailed someone else for information on Gilgamesh and he said he couldn’t find anything on “The Gardens of the Edin” and asked if the guy could’ve been making it up.
Gilgamesh is not an original to begin with.
It is itself based on numerous Mesopotamian myths that were collated into a single continuous story that we still sadly lack the full text for.
Interestingly I would say that actually Gilgamesh is not the origin of the Genesis plagiarism, but rather the same Mesopotamian sources that Gilgamesh was written from.
This is borne out by the fact that the entire flood myth in its oldest recovered form matches a real flood event in the Tigris and Euphrates region, not to mention that the 'ark' in that oldest version of the flood myth (Atrahasis I think) actually matches a real river craft (a coracle) that was used on the Tigris and Euphrates rivers until even the least century.
Contrast that to the biblical ark which makes zero sense in any kind of sane context - because it was plagiarised and the details changed to obscure this plagiarism, the details of those changes lacked any basic mathematical/engineering thought behind them which is why they make no sense what so ever, where as the Atrahasis coracle while far oversized for such a craft does still make sense in all other ways.
@@mnomadvfx What if the real flood was not just Tiger and Euphrates, but covered much of the whole Ancient Middle East? Watch IP's "Noah's Flood: Biblical Archaeology" video.
Have you considered that there is symbolic numerology all throughout Genesis? So the numbers there might not at all be supposed to be accurate or engineeringly practical. Watch IP's "Genesis 6b" video.
It is possible that men from completely different places either experienced powerful things that are almost impossible to document in an early rudimentary language, or documented the exact same fundamental truths?
The epistemological chasm between social media skeptics and theists in general, and Christians in particular, sometimes feel to be too vast to overcome. "post hoc ergo propter ad hoc"... but these "copying", "plagiarizing", "stolen" assertions continue to persist.
These names are the ten generations from Adam to Noah all in Genesis Chapter 5.
Adam = Man
Seth = Appointed
Enosh = Mortal
Kenan = Sorrow or Tent/tabernacle
Mahalalel = Blessed God
Jared = Shall come down
Enoch = Teaching
Methuselah = His death shall bring
Lamech = lament or humble
Noah = Rest or comfort
Put the names together in a sentence and you have the plan of salvation -- the gospel message. Yes, "Mankind is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring the despairing comfort."
Or
"Mankind is appointed mortal tents/flesh. The blessed God shall come down teaching that His death shall bring the humble comfort."
Adam is MANKIND (#120). When Seth was born, Eve said, "For God hath APPOINTED (#7896) me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." Enosh means "MORTAL" (#582). It is from the root anash: to be incurable; used of a wound, grief, woe, sickness, or wickedness. Kenan means "SORROW (2 Chr. 35:25, Jer. 7:29). Balaam, looking down from the hills of Moab, employed a pun regarding the name of the Kenites when he prophesied their destruction (Nu. 24:21,23). Mahalalel, from mahalal (#4111) which means "BLESSED"; and El, the name for GOD. Jared, from the verb yered, meaning "SHALL COME DOWN" (#3382). Enoch, means "TEACHING" (#2596). He prophesied of the Second Coming of Christ (Jude 14,15). As soon as Methuselah died, the flood would be sent forth. "Muth," means DEATH in the Old Testament. Shalach means "TO BRING" or "to send forth." In the year that Methuselah died, the flood came. Notice, Methuselah was 187 when Lamech was born, and lived 782 more years. Lamech was 182 when Noah was born (Gen.5:25-28). The Flood came in Noah's 600th year (Gen. 7:6,11). 187 + 182 + 600 = 969 which was Methuselah's age when he died (Gen. 5:27). Lamech comes from Lemek (#4347), a root still seen today in our English word, "lament". Lamech suggests "DESPAIRING." (This name is also linked to the Lamech in Cain's line who inadvertently killed his son Tubal-Cain in a hunting incident (Genesis 4:19-25). Noah is from nacham, "to bring relief" or "COMFORT" (#5118); (Gen. 5:29).
Put the names together in a sentence and you have the plan of salvation -- the gospel message. Yes, "Mankind is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring the despairing comfort."
May Chuck Missler’s soul rest in God. Idk if that’s where you got this information but I heard it from him. He was a brilliant man who brought so much to the table regarding the mysteries of scripture.
I mean, that's just proof it's all made up, isn't it.
@@wesley3300Yea me also have heard from Him.
It's not so much that they borrowed from each other, it's more so that these ancient Sumerian tales also hold some sort of truth with oral or written stories being passed down through the generations. We have to remember that while Cain fell from the grace of God after murdering Abel it doesn't mean that his knowledge about creation was lost and so he had passed that down to his lineage. While Seth also passed down the knowledge to his lineage. The difference is that Seth's lineage was with God while the other wasn't. We know through scripture that angels serve God, they are superior to humans and also possess free will. Humans have the tendency to worship that which is greater than us. The only issue is that there is only One who deserves the worship and that is the One who created everything including the angels. Because of sin, throughout the generations mankind has lost touch with the one true God, giving heed to other "gods" in order to subdue their need to worship that which is greater.
Cain and Abel were mythical figures. They didn't really exist.
@@Magnulus76 while it can be debated that their story was historical accurate passed down through oral traditions, or an allegory, or a parable, it doesn't change the fact that the need to worship in something (whether in a higher power or in the power of self) is there ingrained in humans since the beginning of time.
The epic of Gilgamesh has an ark that was built, animals loaded onto that ark, birds being released from the ark after the water receded to check for dry land, and sacrifices being made after dry land was found. These are not “vague” similarities and it stretches credulity to believe otherwise.
@RetroMan huh? That’s really got NOTHING to do with the point he was making.
Well said
Funny thing, since IP talked about this more than once on his channel :p
Did you watched IP previous video on the relation between Noah flood and other myths? If so, did you comment there too?
@RetroMan
I don't get it
Great video as usual
Thank you for this video. This video popped up after I not too long ago had this conversation with a client of mine who claimed that he was a former theologian.
Abraham CAME from Babylon, so OF COURSE the legends he passed down were Babylonian in origin.
I would also highly recommend checking out The God Culture and their series "Rivers From Eden". This makes Gilgamesh traveling to the end of the Earth(The Phillipines) and swimming to the bottom of the ocean(Where Eden now sits) to get the herb make a lot more Biblical context.
Abraham came from ur. Not from Babylon. The Babylonian empire wasn't a thing yet
@@jaserader6107 Genesis 15:7, God identifies Himself to Abram: “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”
*The Chaldeans do not take control of Babylon (Ur) until 626BCE*
*The Babylonian empire wasn't a thing yet*
The Babylonian empire started under the Amorites around 1900BCE
So please explain Abraham in 626BCE. At that point the Babylonian empire had been around for 1300 years.
Ur was a Mesopotamian city as far back as 6000 BCE.
@@fordprefect5304 Here's a video that goes into detail about the Tower Of Babel:
1. The Tower Of Babel: Biblical Archeology
ua-cam.com/video/ZNc-hyIRrCs/v-deo.html
Okay so tell me where he got Cain able noah from also tell me where he Got Enoch you see by saying theses things you make unreasonable usumptions you cannot back up Abraham lived in Babylonia in the City of Ur there is no connection not only with any myth in Babylon to get these things you would have to say Abraham was literally person if you then believe so everything he says is true
I had a conversation with my teacher about religion and he brought up Gilgamesh (which I didn't know was a thing, and I doubt he studied it because he didn't give details other than "people believed"). If anything this was the Phoenix Wright style of an OBJECTION!
I wonder if you will ever make a video on how to edit video essays the way you do. I'd love to learn!
IP, what are the best books on the cultural and historical context behind the Old Testament? Thanks!
He has used one book by John Walton in other videos: Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament.
I read it last year. It was perfect as overview of ancient beliefs and how it aligns or differs from the Old Testament.
Genesis, prior to Abraham, was essentially Sumerian. Abraham was Sumerian too, and the 'modern' story of Abraham and the Hebrews begins ca 1650 BC. We now know that date because of the research into the destruction of the cities of the Jordan plains (Sodom and Gomorrah story) when Abraham turned 100. And Sodom and Gomorrahs destruction was no myth.
Not to be annoyingly pedantic (too late) but he'd have been northern Mediterranean, Sumeria was south/eastern Mesopotamia. Sumer predates other Mesopotamian cultures, but it ended suddenly, prior to Abraham's time, and their language/cities ended suddenly. But other Mesopotamian cultures that came after them adopted their myths and many aspects of their culture,but in different languages/places, etc.
To draw a biblical parallel snd taje a risk I'd say that Sumer was Babel, and it was central, powerful and dominant, but was ended by God via confusion, which explains why the language/culture ended, but was then rapidly and popularly adapted into other languages and changed as these other cultures rise to prominence, barely skipping a beat.
But it should also be noted that Abraham is an iconoclast who LEFT Mesopotamian culture, it's his mythical upbringing, but he's starting something new, more stripped down, personal and immediate and not merely metaphotical/mythic/abstract/impersonal. But clearly there's common cultural roots, and these roots go back to Sumer, maybe ever pre-sumer. Civilization didn't come from nothing.
@@ravissary79 Interesting, Abraham came from Haran wasn't it, Syria/Turkey. And before that 'Ur of the Chaldeas' which I understand to be Sumer/Akkad. It's interesting but I am not defending any position.
Also, în a jungian manner, some things are so true that everyone knows them.
Damn. I'll admit I currently lack a belief in the judeo christian god, and i haven't seen the video yet so it's arguments may be somewhat more cogent than some found in this comment section, but i must admit forthright that i am genuinely impressed by yours and can find nothing unsound whatever in it. Props, friend.
@@murraywatson9238 when you want to say "i feel you" but try to sound smarter
@@marthavera8682 oh yeah! 😂😂 Sorry the Jungians always always end up bringing out my inner Increasingly Verbose Armchair Historian sooner or later lol.
Understanding how supernatural stories and gods arrive into cultures is complex. The problem here is not if the stories were copied or evolved from each other but simply the idea that we hold the people who wrote the myths and stories of the Bible as special or significant over people who wrote myths and stories in other parts of the the world..
I'm burning through this. I'm glad you got into it.
"and then everyone clapped" HILARIOUS hahahaha
Nothing warms heart like seeing another IP video out debunking internet skeptics 😊
Great video!
Thanks for video.
Now this is epic
nope he self refuted christianity .
now use the same reasoning with christianity and you will realize why the the hebrew bible have nothing to do with fulfilled prophecies in the new testament .
the new testament writers where using the same reasoning by applying out of context verses from the hebrew bible to a character(jesus) to say it was a fulfilled prophecy 'parallels,typologies,midrashic method'. for example:Isaiah 53, mathew 2:15-17. etc,etc.
Good! The use of common elements would just show us that God spoke in human language.
For effective communication, God used elements those people were familiar with. This in no way nullifies inspiration. Divine inspiration is not dictating letter by letter.
Genesis for example, instead of following the polytheism, would use common elements as a form of apologetics, where God corrects the view of that people, showing that there was no pantheon of gods, instead, He created all things and was the only God.
you mean people's biases? 😆
was genesis creation metaphorical or literal? because either way problematic, it's absurd metaphorically talking about first humans when they are not literal humans but symbols.. 😆 or just plain wrong scientifically.. about the order of creation.. 😆
" God spoke in human language. " First prove god, then you can talk about what you think he did. Not that you would know.
God bless you friend amazing work
Also, those "differences" are so surface level, that in a thousand years people thinking like you would say "Homelander from the Boys has no connection to Superman because he's not an Alien, he is blond, his cape has stripes in it, he has no Lois Lane analog in his story, he is a Villain, he wasn't created by a Jew, nor is he a reporter". Even though, EVERY SINGLE person on the planet right now would recognize their connection.
People will seek and believe in whatever they already want to believe. Like many books and stories in the Bible, there are are so many different views and opinions. They are all different, all claim to be right, and all have the same conclusion "don't trust the bible". The holy spirit confirms the truth and anyone can recieve that confirmation for themselves freely.
Seriously?
If the book is a plagiarized fake, don’t trust anything it says.
In other words, Pastor, don't trust the evidence, trust some holy man who claims to know the Truth. No thanks.
@@davidhoward437 I didn't say that at all. There is truth and there are opinions. The Bible makes a lot of claims, many unbelievable in nature. But, it also offers a confirmation. A physical confirmation that anyone can recieve. And that is why we belive. Don't believe the claims of others, but seek it for yourself. Or don't, and believe whatever you want to about it based on whatever you want to learn.
@@doyouknoworjustbelieve6694 If it is. But there's no way any of us could really know that. Only what other people tell us and they can't agree on anything. I can give you many different reasons to not believe in it. All will claim to be true and all will 100% contradict the other. But its the only book to my knowledge that makes a promise, and when you follow that promise you not only see the results that it says you will, but will feel what it says you will. Its free will, choose what you want to choose.
Good work has usual , however it still leave me wondering . Mayans may have had a Phoenician connection. Abrahams father may have been from a line of priests in Ur. Though I agree with you, there is to many coincidences to dismiss the possibility completely. We may learn more has more of the Babylonian library is translated. Thanks for your work. It is helpful.
nope . he self refuted christianity .
now use the same reasoning with christianity and you will realize why the the hebrew bible have nothing to do with fulfilled prophecies in the new testament .
the new testament writers where using the same reasoning by applying out of context verses from the hebrew bible to a character(jesus) to say it was a fulfilled prophecy 'parallels,typologies,midrashic method'. for example:Isaiah 53, mathew 2:15-17. etc,etc.
IP the OG. Good work as always
thx for your interest in this, You can inspire us all
I think it's kind of weird that you distinguished between "culture" and their myths.
Pointless is a better term.
Their myths defined their culture in a fundamental way.
So you can't divorce one from the other.
10:30 had me rolling
nope . he self refuted christianity .
now use the same reasoning with christianity and you will realize why the the hebrew bible have nothing to do with fulfilled prophecies in the new testament .
the new testament writers where using the same reasoning by applying out of context verses from the hebrew bible to a character(jesus) to say it was a fulfilled prophecy 'parallels,typologies,midrashic method'. for example:Isaiah 53, mathew 2:15-17. etc,etc.
Ppl forget that for 195 thousand years oral tradition existed. There certian things that it was assumed you already knew. We call those things parallels now.
I wanted to go over a few things in revelation where would be a good place to do so?
Depends what are you looking for?
I feel this doesn't spend enough time responding to the point that people are actually making when they note these similarities, it's not "Jews copied the Babylonians," it's that if Jewish and Babylonian mythology are connected then it's because they're both descended from the same earlier (probably prehistoric) stories, and those would've been different from what became Babylonian religion AND from what became Judaism. So people that believe the Jewish version is any more accurate in the way it represents those earlier myths and legends than the Babylonian version is need to explain why they think that, but I'm unaware of any way to argue that that doesn't at least partially rely on or presuppose certain religious beliefs that people outside of Abrahamic religions aren't going to have
He addressed it in the first point by saying Jews and Babylonians could have developed their stories independently than borrowing from each other or Jews borrow from the dominant culture. If there was borrowing, the later text would have been more similar. But it is not. Thus it is likely the stories made were independent than dependent. Even if they have similar items and character, they were used differently. The Mayan and Greek example and the Syrian and Roman Sun god example points to that: although stories may have similar characters, the stories can to be made independently than borrowing from each other. Correlation does not equal causation.
This, stories made independently => not likely to come from common source.
@@whm_w8833 It's technically possible that the stories were invented independently, but I see it as highly unlikely that they all were, and that's why I said I don't think the video spends enough time on that point. Just saying it was possible isn't enough
Also I seem to recall this channel actually supporting the notion of looking at Jewish and Sumerian/Babylon mythology together and noting the similarities when it suited the purpose of making of sense of the creation story in Genesis. Why would that help at all if these mythologies were created entirely independently from each other?
@@cereallain9423 in the Noah flood video, IP shows the process of how a story that is borrowed from other culture would look like. He provided an example of with two pagan myths and one can pinpoint where it divulge and similar. Then he showed the account of the pagan flood myth and to the Bible to show that there were too many inconsistency and far fetched to make that true.
I speak in generalities (or I may have mistakenly refer to a different video about similar claim of “borrowing” from cultures) but I’m doing my best from memory.
On the second point, I think he was referring to on how we Christian need to stop looking at the creation for our current western perspective and look at it from the author perspective in their context and culture, which was an ancient Israelite surrounded by nations from Mesopotamia culture. In addition, comparison between Sumerian/Babylon culture and ancient isreal culture is important to understand their mindset and how they expressed value/story through their worldview vs how we expressed our stories in our viewpoint.
God Bless , Brother 🙏🏻 Your videos helped my faith a lot ❤️
N.B :- Can you do some videos against the Islamic view of Jesus Christ?
Have you believed on Christ Jesus for long?
I'm curious. What ARE the islamic views of Christ?
@@zayobayo2175 they don't believe that He came down to earth into human flesh they don't believe that He died, they regard Jesus as a prophet but not as Yahweh they believed he was some proxy which is something that the book of first John expressly warns against.. encourage you to read it for yourself, besides being nontrinitarian which the Old Testament clearly has some trouble passages for them to interpret from that particular framework.. and also besides ignoring Jewish theology which once held to the "two powers in heaven" idea.
their false context starts from them ignoring the order of the lineage.. 1500 years to 2,000 years before the Quran which was most likely written in the 5th or 6th Century ad . The Torah says.. the Lord God of Israel, Israel is the renaming by God of Jacob look into Genesis 32 for reference, thus the lineage goes Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...now the brother of Isaac was Ishmael , Ishmael was the older/first brother from hagar an egyptian but God said the promised son was going to be isaac by his wife Sarah who was barren. Ishmael is who their Mohammed is said to be a descendant of...
1500 to 2,000 years before the Quran, God made Ishmael a great kingdom but made his Covenant with Isaac as written in the Torah which are the first five books of Moses.
@@enoch3874 Fascinating, thank you!
One last thing, not EVERY piece of fiction inspired by another piece of fiction follow the same plot beats.
- Could we have had Independence Day without the radio show War of The Worlds? No!
- Could we have had Twilight without Interview with the Vampire? No!
- Could we have had the Harry Potter Horcruxes without Lord of the Rings? No!
- Could we have had The Merchant of Venice without the tale where Loki gets the dwarfs to make Mjolnir? No!
- Could we have had the Moana animated movie without Snow White? Are you going to tell me Moana ain't white therefore there is NO connection whatsoever between them? Even though they are both built after the Disney Princess mold?
Have you checked the other Cannanite myths and motifs and compared them the akkadian/sumerian versions to understand how ingrained were Mesopotamia's culture into the Levant cultural background to understand how would a piece of fiction be a consequence or a rebuttal of said zeitgeist??????? How come El has a strong connections to Enlil/Enki for the Cannanite, but the Israelites magically thought of a totally BRAND NEW God out of the blue with the exact same name and with the exact same plot points as the Mesopotamian God... as a coincidence!
Nicely done
Several time in Genesis, the term for "God" was plural. Conservative Christians say the "plural" refers to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'd love to see you address "God" being Plural in many instances in Genesis.
Speaking of the Divine Council. Dr Michael heiser has alot to say about this.
He's referring to the divine council ( Angels- lesser elohim)
Question for IP: do you think early human species and hominids are part of the image of God? And on that note do you think Adam was homo sapien or cro magnon as they’re called
He went into this question already in his Genesis series
Cro-magnon are just early Homo sapiens.
@@stefanlaskowski6660 i know thats what i said
As impossible as it might be 2 people can have the same idea half a world away and not even know it. However if I recall Tesla had ideas and Edison stole it from him according to the doctor who episode from the 12th season.
The theory you come up with better not even hint that these stories seem similar because they are grounded in actual historical events. That would be craaaazzzzy.
Great video. I have 2 push backs. The chameleon being discounted as similar to the serpent. The punishment of the serpent was to crawl on its belly. The implication may be that a lizard(chameleon) became the first snake this way. And the second is that people groups have most likely been trading longer than recorded and those stories spread like the game telephone
With all due respect, I think your interpretation of the curses inflicted upon on the serpent is based on a cultural misunderstanding. 🥰
1. Genesis 3A: The Serpent
ua-cam.com/video/72T2bW8bkfA/v-deo.html
IP, have you considered looking into the origins of consciousness in the bicameral mind? It may be an interesting theory for your apologetic framework.
How would that be used as an apologetic purpose? From my understanding, it implies that much of the Old Testament was an auditory hallucination
@@thomasjames6323 Because evolution implies a close relationship of animals to the asymptote of true humanity that was finally crossed by divine intervention, evidenced by the immaterial faculties of our souls. This needs to be accounted for by theistic evolutionists, that is, what is the nature of humanity in relation to its evolutionary background?
@@account2871 IP has a playlist of videos that May scratch your itch
@@thomasjames6323 "it implies that much of the Old Testament was an auditory hallucination"
That neatly explains a pretty large score of religious texts that cover a deity speaking to someone for sure.
That being said, one shouldn't rule out straight up pre emptive justification scripture that absolves early Hebrews or Christians from killing a shedload of people that do not conform to their religion or ethnicity (yes you heard me, the Hebrews indeed committed plenty of genocide in the heydays of the 2 temples).
@@account2871 "This needs to be accounted for by theistic evolutionists, that is, what is the nature of humanity in relation to its evolutionary background?"
There isn't one.
Pick an argument.
Either you are being dogmatic and science is hogwash that you can ignore and evolution didn't happen at all because we were just made this way.
Or it's real and you are trying to chase a middle ground because you can see the merits of the scientific explanation but fear to divorce yourself from the religious parts of your life that are at war with that explanation.
What do you think of the transmission of the Pentatuech
Thank you IP
I never knew how much I needed more snark in your videos
nope . he self refuted christianity .
now use the same reasoning with christianity and you will realize why the the hebrew bible have nothing to do with fulfilled prophecies in the new testament .
the new testament writers where using the same reasoning by applying out of context verses from the hebrew bible to a character(jesus) to say it was a fulfilled prophecy 'parallels,typologies,midrashic method'. for example:Isaiah 53, mathew 2:15-17. etc,etc.
@@descartergosum that’s why IP doesn’t put too much weight on prophetic arguments from the OT
@@anthonyschuh2775 I think IP is on the way of being an atheist. Maybe because of his following he doesn’t gonna do that. But is my opinion.
@@descartergosum Apostate Prophet will become a Christian before IP becomes an atheist
@@descartergosum very interesting grammar you got there sir
I’m interested but my understanding of scripture leads me to wonder. Most scriptural scholars forget that Genesis is supposed to be a vision given to Moses not an exact history. One could argue that the Bible itself borrows from older remembered documents. The Hebrews and the Pagans would be remembering the same history from a different lense.
That is the most generous explanation.
At the Tower of Babel they had a common language and memory of the past.
Then the nations were separated by distinct languages. Each nation began recounting their history and they diverged.
An alternative is that each nation was then assigned a son if God to rule over them, and their mythologies diverged based on the opinion of that son of God.
Yahweh, the personal name taken by El, told his nation the actual course of events.
Either way, the stories are similar, just different perspectives.
Doesn't have to be a vision, could also be the story that had passed though the generations of Abraham's descendants.
Most born again Christians, pastors, teachers, preachers, Jewish scholars, rabbis, accept the Torah as historical fact. This is also backed by archeology where it can apply. Religious college professors (even in world renown biblical colleges ) claim other reasons, purposes, or explanations than the literal translation. All of these that I have researched can really be traced back to political affiliation rather than actual facts. Or they never were believers to begin with so, naturally have an alternative motive.
@@awakeningfaith2290 If their actual facts being a believer doesn’t really come into it. The problem with looking far enough into the past when all you have left our documents that retain the perspective of individuals not involved in the original incidences, being generous seems fair and allows Appreciation and analysis without contention per se.
I’m pretty sure Genesis was oral tradition. It never says Moses had a vision for it
I liked the sarcasm in this video, not too much, not too little
Bro I am from India. As you said from oral traditions, I have one story to share from Indian epics there was story of Noah arc and genesis in vishnu Purana, but it's more details it happens every few billions of years, cycle repeats, if you want you can read and spread great info like this. God Vishnu matsya Avatar saving ship.
There was no such thing. It's not related at all.
Given the fact that the stories of the Bible were of oral tradition possibly thousands for years before the written word and Jewish culture was continually occupied by military super powers of the time, is it not possible the sumerian and babylonians heard the Jewish stories and embellished them into their own.It is hard to believe Jewish leaders and scholars could hood wink each Jewish generation with false accounts of biblical patriarchs and fantastic stories and older generations would just play along with it . Are some biblical stories exaggerated by the biblical writers of course.But the core essence of the biblical stories ring sincere and true. The fact the Jewish culture exist today even though through history Jewish culture and people were several times almost annilated still exist in their millions while the sumerian and babylonian cultures now exist in the annals of history provides ample evidence for biblical truths.
No. it's more likely that the jewish culture borrowed from other cultures around them. stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh were also oral tradition long before they were written so long before the Jewish oral tradition.
@@jaclo3112 If the Bible flood used gilgamesh as a source because of similarities,then it must be that all the 200 flood stories around the world copied the mesopotamian story...right?
@@Angle98411 if they all claimed a world flood that had a boat built and mating pairs of all animals of the world loaded on to it possibly. But most flood mythologies around the world are very different from the Gilgamesh and noah mythology.
@@jaclo3112 Except many speak of a God doing judgement,a big flood and a few people surviving,even the Native americans have their own flood stories,not just around the region but around the world,there are lots of similarities between them but that doesn't mean all 200 of them copied Gilgamesh.
@@Angle98411 and yet there is no global flood as claimed in the bible. and other flood stories speak of other gods, not the christian war god Yahweh. And many of them don't involve cruelly slaughtering toddlers and innocents by drowning as the genocidal christian gods did.
Hello Micheal! ( IP ) I read an article that talks about genesis not being accurate and I’m skeptical. Can you put a video that speaks the accuracy of genesis?
See here: ua-cam.com/play/PL1mr9ZTZb3TUqxi2svB3PUHvj-9io2RL5.html
@@InspiringPhilosophy The early universe was not "dark". We know from quantum mechanics that the earliest universe was a sea of quarks, followed shortly after by a sea of free nucleons and photons. Until the era of "decoupling", about 300,000 years after the formation of the universe, the entire universe was as bright throughout as the surface of the sun is today.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Can you explain this!
@@poweroftruth9258 ua-cam.com/video/R24WZ4Hvytc/v-deo.html
@@InspiringPhilosophy thank you so much Micheal! In the near future are you going to have debates with anyone?
I wonder just how much we got wrong on history.
spontaneous thought: couldnt the adam meaning man be derived from man being recovered from the water of flooding myths? just a thought
The wholw book is mythological if you think otherwise you're crazy😆😆
A lot of people would do good if they read The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious by Carl Jung.
Many of these parallelisms and coincidences in mythologies between multiple and disparate human cultures can be reasonably explained because universally the human condition precludes human creativity. Oftentimes needs, worries and topics are common to all human beings; we are all more similar than what we'd like to accept. We often arrive at similar conclusions, thought patterns or goals because reality in this world, biology, environments and physics' constraints, pushes us to a somewhat predictable set of outcomes and ideas.
Or, more realistically the writers of Genesis adopted an older myth and made the necessary changes to fit their agenda.
@@dominicpardo4783 It's less malignant than you portray it to be. I bet you think that people is out there to get you or that there's always a sinister mastermind pulling all the strings, but in reality it's more often the case that some things which happen spontaneously are advantageous to a certain group. No great master plan needed.
When mythologies, pantheons and beliefs meet, syncretism (the amalgamation of different religions, cultures, or schools of thought) often occur. It's a frequent happening when the resulting mix serves the agenda of a religion. See for example what happened between the goddess Tonantzin and The Virgin Mary ( www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/gods/virgin-of-guadalupe-and-tonantzin ) where even the Catholic Church wasn't originally willing to accept this advocation nor had it contemplated in their agenda for the christianisation of the Americas. The movement originally came from the indigenous people as a reinterpretation of an apparition myth.
@@rodylermglez Eat shit. I don't think any such thing. Way to project. There has never been sufficient evidence presented to me that suggests any god exists. But there's plenty that suggests that all gods are mythological and man made.
I don't think it is a correlation that Abraham was from Ur during gilgameshs reign and that there is a story in the midrash where Gilgamesh challenged Abraham's God and lost. And according to josephus nimrod that built the tower of babel was gilgamesh. Nimrod was a nickname with multiple meanings. Just saying. They aren't entirely unconnected.
No one is suggesting plagiarism. Just because two stories are not absolutely identical does not mean that one story was not influenced by another. One example to try to be short is the saying "heavy heart". It was originally a story, a trial, from early Egyptian mythology. The story went to Greece, Rome, and eventually to the rest of Europe. We still say heavy heart today in the west. NOW, does this mean that you are actually ripping your heart out of your chest and placing it on a scale next to a feather when you say this? Does this mean that you only say it upon death? We clearly know where the saying heavy heart came from, however, it is VASTLY different from the original Egyptian myth. Meaning that just because something is not IDENTICAL to the original story, does not mean that it cannot have an influence on later cultures and religions. Obviously, as
InspiringPhilosophy is stating, that just because two stories seem similar, that doesn't automatically mean that one influenced the other. Some kind of investigative standard would have to be developed in order to say, with confidence, that one story did or did not influence another. All anyone is doing right now, whichever side they are on, is guessing, and that is not helpful to anyone trying to simply understand what is TRUE.
1. There are MANY people who are not only suggesting, but outright asserting plagiarism. Some of those said people are in this comment section.
2. I agree that people should stop asserting whether or not it was copied. No one on either side of the argument has any direct physical evidence to prove without a shadow of a doubt whether or not Genesis or Gilgamesh were plagiarized.
Here’s what we know:
-There are many parallels between the stories. Some vague, some specific.
-There are many differences between the stories. Some big some small.
- The tablets and manuscripts that detail the Epic of Gilgamesh predate the available manuscripts detailing the Genesis accounts
Here’s what we don’t know:
-We don’t know whether or not these stories were copied. The words copy and plagiarism suggest willful intent and we need concrete proof for that.
-Even if they were plagiarized we have no way of knowing who copied who, because the oral traditions were passed down for thousands of years, long before written language existed. Therefore the available manuscripts and tablets do not serve as evidence of plagiarism. They don’t tell us when the stories first came into existence. They just give us a decent estimate of when they were WRITTEN DOWN.
So until more sufficient evidence is unearthed, we cannot draw a final conclusion on the matter.
@@armandvega2752 No one of VALUE is asserting plagiarism. There are many flat earthers today. They have written books, appeared on radio programs, possibly even television programs, and they have made comments online. If a flat earther makes comment regarding the earth, does it have value? No. Why? Because there is enough evidence to disprove that the earth is flat, i.e. the earth is a sphere. To say that no one is asserting that the earth is flat is to say that no one of value is asserting that the earth is flat. This is important - If a flat earther tried to make an argument in favour of global warming, and I re-iterate the collected proof that the earth is not flat, have I proven or disproven anything regarding global warming? The answer is no. Which is one major reason why flat earthers' comments regarding the earth have no value. If someone that is asserting a direct 1:1 plagiarized copy of the bible from Mesopotamian texts makes comment regarding what is written in the bible, does it have value? No. Why? Because there is enough evidence to disprove that what is written in the bible is a direct 1:1 plagiarized copy of texts written earlier in Mesopotamia. That is not saying that individuals arguing for direct plagiarism have not written books, appeared in interviews, or made comment online. It simply means their comments have no value and are irrelevant. Given what has been proven and what we know today, If an individual, a government, or an organization wish to prove global warming, is it a complete waste of time, energy, and resources to try and prove that the earth is not flat? The answer is yes. Given what is proven and what we know today, If an individual or an organization wish to prove originality of Jewish texts, i.e. they are trying to prove the texts were not influenced from earlier sources, is it a complete waste of time, energy, and resources to try and disprove the texts were plagiarized from earlier Mesopotamian sources? The answer is yes. This is important - even if one does re-iterate the proof that Jewish texts were not a direct plagiarism from earlier Mesopotamian texts, does this prove or disprove anything regarding the originality of Jewish texts? The answer is no. This is the biggest issue with this particular video. InspiringPhilosophy asserts at 7:28 that an exact copy of the narrative of the Garden of Eden cannot be found in earlier cultures, and for this reason, InspiringPhilosophy concludes that the Garden of Eden is most likely an original Jewish story. There is no evidence to make this conclusion. Just as disproving the earth is flat does nothing to prove or disprove global warming, disproving an exact 1:1 plagiarized copying of Mesopotamian texts does nothing to prove or disprove the originality of Jewish texts. There is no reason why other stories from other cultures could not have had an influence on early Jewish scribes, and there is no reason or evidence that they could not have incorporated these stories into their own. I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS EVIDENCE that this occurred, I am not saying it is more likely that they did or did not come up with a story on their own. I am saying that there currently is no standard to determine this, and concluding that one is more likely than the other has no value and is meaningless. At 21:32 InspiringPhilosophy also states that because there is no evidence for a 1:1 plagiarized copying of Mesopotamian and Israel narratives, that it is most likely that they arose independently. Again, there is no evidence to conclude this. Simply disproving exact copying does not disprove that one could not have an influence, even distant, on another. Meaning that disproving exact copying does nothing towards proving or disproving originality of Jewish religious stories. The only arguments of value regarding Mesopotamian texts and the bible, are those asserting that early Jewish scribes were influenced by earlier Mesopotamian stories and sources, which this video does not address in any way.
Good video, I'm going have to rewatch it again because my phone dies but the chat seem safe when I was there
Me at the end of the video. It's kinda obvious one side that the early Jews didn't copy from other Pagan legends but it's just that stories would have different meanings by how the philosophy teaches.
@@leonardodoel3106 Wrong.
The use of Gilgamesh as the compared source material is a fundamental snafu from the beginning.
Gilgamesh is basically both a rewrite and collation of many Mesopotamian myths and legends that pre date the writing of the Epic of GIlgamesh by centuries.
Other comparisons have shown that by using these earlier disparate sources instead of Gilgamesh you start to see a much more clear connection to the Torah's Genesis, albeit not only those Mesopotamian sources - likely some Canaanite stuff is in there too as well as other Semitic sources.
@@mnomadvfx Did you even watch the video?
Carl Jung made remarkable contributions in explaining how these similar myths and symbols came about throughout the world quite independently
The Hebrews lived in Babylonian & Persian Empires. Who did they get it from, God?
More importantly though is the idea that humans accross the world and accross time independently come to understand the world in similar ways. Like an emergent phenomenon of humanity. Seems pretty interesting to consider the similarities as reflections of fundemental human traits or maybe more interesting as similar understandings of fundemental universal truths.
Myths are spread orally and changed during time that is how it works
Of course they did. The old Testament was written by prisoners in the dungeons of Assyria with no access to historical facts.
Prof Christine Hayes from Yale University has a wonderful UA-cam lecture series, which explores and compares the Bible against the wider literary context of the Ancient Near East.
Well, against what we have recovered of the Ancient Near East anyway.
Considering the Israelites made a concerted effort to wipe out the Canaanites and just about anyone else within reach of them we can only speculate about how many of these cultures were assimilated in part or completely and just how closely those cultures followed the ANE literary elements found in the OT/Torah.
Then of course you have the Catholic church and it's predilection with destroying religious texts that are not orthodox Christian and you have a whole lot of questions about what relates to what over time.
Thank you for the recommendation
@@johanroypaul2816 You are most welcomel
Do you play guitar? Off topic question, but I really want to know
No, I play the game
@@InspiringPhilosophy that's deep
@@InspiringPhilosophy who are you, CS Lewis?!I can’t understand this dense intellectual brilliance!
@@aquapointbeshoy2736 i think he meant he plays some kind of guitar game? 🤔
Thank you for making this, now I can address this problem just in case someone make an argument about it. Pretty hard to defend the bible from this.
The reason the narratives are so similar is because the pagan myths are FROM the perspective of the enemy. The biblical narrative is from the perspective of God.
So argument for the bible accuracy is based on cherry picking and reinterpreting biblical passages and that certain hebrew words sounds similar to ... Yet the argument against Genesis being a copy of ideas from other narratives is that they are cherry picking verses and ideas to make a casual link.
Talk about consistency!
I got one, Moses is inspired by Adam and Eve.
- subjects of a land are persuaded to defy their ruler, by one who presents himself as their liberator
- this angers the ruler, so the subjects must leave the land immediately, and can never return
- thus the subjects must toil perpetually in the harsh wilderness beyond, and the "liberator" is forever cursed
Hey maybe you should be an atheist, your good at making stuff up.
Were the pagan legends passed down from Noah and the flood. Occam's Razor is it more likely that all of these lore arose independently or that they are retellings of an original?
Actually if a story is similar to another one before it we can assume the later one is based on the earlier unless there is clear proof of independent development of the two stories.
Was Genesis "Stolen" From Pagan Legends? Here's a response from 2 scholars:
ua-cam.com/video/MlnrgbIlPQk/v-deo.html
My response to your blatant propaganda-
ua-cam.com/video/lhDWTIbs5w4/v-deo.html
I find it interesting that we all have a very similar idea of how life came to be
Wasn’t Abraham a Chaldean from the city of Ur? I’m pretty sure that was in Mesopotamia.
This was a well done video with thorough dissection of the overblown parallels between Genesis and near eastern myths according to many scholars. It would be interesting to take it a step further and ask, “why?” There is much to be said about the motive to self-aggrandize oneself and one’s field of study in academics. And probably more fundamentally, there is there anti-religious impulse, resulting in a drive drag down Genesis to the level of other pagan cultures. The reality is that it’s unique and incomparably profound stories and accounts find no parallel. And that is because it has a fundamentally different source.
Nonsense. It's a collection of stories, very much written by humans, reflecting particular cultural milieus and syncretisms, like any other ANE literature. You only think your stories are special because they are familiar to you, and your favourite god is in them. Your bias is so strong you can't see these ancient texts for what they are.
Nope. Genesis was the first creation. There is a None material Eden and there is many Physicals Eden on earth. You can confirm this fact by seeing all creation myth on different cultures. Also make account to the work of Enoch Son of Jared about teaching how to be civilized. That's means the dead sea scrolls are getting hotter.
The modern mind is truly a fascinating thing. Always thinking in terms of "stealing" or "plagiarizing".
Before written language there was oral tradition. At destruction of the Tower of Babel God or the Gods made it so that we couldn't understand one another but prior to switching up the language they all had the same creation story from oral tradition and then when the people were dispersed throughout the world they took the oral tradition with them and because it was oral and not written it can be manipulated and become a type of rumor so only bits and pieces will fit together with the rest of the people's creation story's.