Roaster School Online - Ep #1 - Turning Point
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2016
- A new format, a new topic, a turning point for both. Joe and Dave discuss turning point in a roast and how it can affect end product.
Test your roasting knowledge with our Roaster School 'Year One Quiz', found online at millcityroasters.com/media/ro..."
Learn more about Mill City Roasters, our roasters, and how to roast green coffee by visiting us at millcityroasters.com. - Навчання та стиль
I can't believe this is free, you guys are amazing! Learning to roast and its been a fun journey
I'm not from an english speaker country but understood every word you guys said. Thanks for speaking slowly and very clearly!! :)
Great content btw!!
That's how country folk talk y'all
Right
so what country is that ?
Thanks y'all!! Been looking for something like this for a while and it's been super informative
Love this new style of training. There's so much to learn, it's great that you guys are breaking it down into easily digestible chunks.
Great material!!
Thanks Joe and Dave!
My goodness I found this first episode so useful.
Thanks for putting your time into this I'm looking forward to watching the whole series.
I think it's hard for most of us to figure out the learning CURVE (roaster pun intended) in roasting. Seems like most of us grew up in classrooms where we didn't hear "here are some basic principles. Go and figure out how this works for you!".. Perhaps that's a good thing, I don't know..
When I started roasting, I wanted someone to hold my hand, and tell me every single little detail from charge to drop. As it turns out, you *have* to go out on a limb in roasting and figure out some of the problems yourself! Fine by me! You guys are the best. Thanks for time and efforts!
Thanks for making this series of videos.
Dave and Joe - good work on this - it makes a lot more sense. Thanks for sharing.
you guys are really great!so glad to find you...even its a 7 years ago video... thanks a lot!
Love this. Thanks so much you guys. Keep 'em coming.
I would like to tell you are doing a great job. Alot of peoole need to know how to roast . You are helping even the master roasters nobody is not perfect you creat a platform for sharing experience .
Thanks for this! Appreciated!
Thanks a lot for making those videos, and for being soooo clear ! What you do is so important for upgrading the quality of coffee roasting worldwide ! THANKS GUYS !!!!
This is incredible! Thank you SO much guys!
I'm new to this coffee processing. I have drunk it for a long time but didn't have the respect for the processing.I compare a roaster as you would a winemaker. I will soon start selling coffee online. I have learned to also pay attention to the roaster also. A roaster can ruin the characters of a bean and create a good coffee out of a sub-par bean.I am learning so much from you guys. I will definitely keep you all as mentors. At least I will know what I'm talking about when selling.
Thanks so much. I have a small roaster now and I know for sure who I will go to when I step up my game in size. You guys are the best!!
Great videos. Thanks.
Omg, I LOVE this video😍 Thank you so much!
So much good Info! Thank you!
straight forward and easy to understand. Thank you
solid educational video done in good fashion, thanks!
Just a thought...when you guys get back to demonstrating roasting, it would be great to see a split-screen of Artisan and another screen showing closeups of beans in the trier as they are being checked.
Cheers, and keep up the great work!
Heartily agree with this.
guys you are Amazing ! thanks
This may be an oldish video, but roasting is roasting. Great information, and professional attitude. Looking forward to the rest of the vids.
love your lession .
great information for someone who can afford a real roaster. The one you see in this video is over $6,000 or more.
Great video. Easily followed and understood as a newbie.
Thanks. I really like your principle👍
Such a masterclass on roasting for a newbie like myself as a home roaster. Will remember the important points made and apply. I believe roasting coffee is highly addctive activity as I've learned a lot more about coffee than just brewing a cup of espresso.
Thank you so much guys..!! 🙂
Great starting video. Thank you
Thank you for your teachings
I'm from Vietnam and I really like your video
Thanks very much ^^
You guys are awesome!!!
Please explain Delta ET & BT. 🙏😫 BTW, I love your videos! Keep them coming. My roasts has increased by a long shot as a direct result of your teachings.
THANK YOU MUCH!
Napo
Just watch. love your style to teach.
Great video guys!!
Thank you for sharing good information.
Very good content. Thank you for sharing this
thanks for this
great work
thx a lot, great job
Joe you are the best
Thanks so much guys. I just bought a used 500g roaster. I'm going to fire it up this weekend. I've watched many of your videos. Love them!
David S
Hello may I ask from where did U get ur roaster and price plzz
This is very valuable info you guys! There are roastery schools out there that charge thousands to get this kind of insight. Thank you thank you thank you
Great lesson 👌👍
Thank you!
Guys thank you so much. On my 6th roast and loving it
I love your videos. Watched about every one. Would you ever consider a video in roasting for espresso? Thanks!
Thanks a million.
tk you so much
Dear Mill City Roasters, I’m Iizzy from Taiwan. And I really appreciate you guys having this project, sharing so many useful content online. I’m wondering if it’s possible for me to translate them into Chinese for a larger audience that are also interested in these lessons? Thank you so much
What temp would you say the best “average” launch temp/turning point that suit the best one? Assuming not to fall steeply for the higher dense beans or not to go turning to fast for the lower density beans..
شكرا جدا ،أفكر في هذا المشروع احب تحميص القهوة و البهارات. أحببت الفيديوات توحي براحة و هدوء نفسي. بارك الله فيكم
Hello Joe and Dave,
I have a question for you guys. I have been roasting for the last one and a half years. I use a Hottop roaster now. Before moving forward to buying the Hottop, I used a skillet to roast my coffee. My biggest concern is that I am not getting the flavors of the coffee after roasting it. Also, achieving a light roast with this machine is a problem because they either come out too early and taste grassy or too late.
What would you recommend using in general, and also in terms of a roaster? Any advice is welcomed. Thank you for your videos and time.
Mill City is in a league of their own
Always a fan guys. Any thoughts on making a video on Roasting Decaf coffees - this seems to be a more difficult processed category bean to roast
Пройшло сім років, проте я із задоволенням дивлюсь ваше відео. Дякую за навчання ! 😊
Hi! I thank you very much for this video. It's very intuitive and easy to get although I have a question. I'm a very beginner roaster and I have an electric 1kg roaster. So I hope you can help me have a better result at this initial phase. After I charge the temperature to about 200ºC, what should I do about the drum rotation speed, airflow and heat until the turning point? I'd also love if some other folks reading the messages here could contribute with their suggestions. Thank you all!
Nice job
Estamos empezando una marca de café y adentrando al tema del tostado. Muchas gracias por compartir.
THANK YOU!!!! It's GREAT! My wife's gonna roast Spelt to make Spelt "coffee". Have you ever done this type of roasting?
Great info
I heard taking notes during a sample roast is the best way to cup the roast meaning you take samples say every 5 degrees until you reach a certain high temp. then lay out the samples from every 5 degrees, cup em and find the best time and temp for that roast. is that correct?
Can you please explain me more about the point you talked about on the minute 33:00 , the humidity in the COFFE not the same humidity in the air??!!
thank you so much!!!!
I am entertaining getting a roaster for home use. These principles are a great place for me to start. I look forward to watching all the other video you produced on learning roasting.
Cheers
Excellent
based on my experience after the turning point, sometimes the way that the coffee react to the changes are different depend on the weather outside the roaster shop. everything were fixed accept the weather outside, is that a problem or what? but the taste of the coffee is the same.
I really love this class
really appricate and thank you. from nepal
This is brill
If someone does not have a sample roaster and only has a production roaster (for example Giesen W6) should they still load 80% of the capacity while learning to use the roaster? That sounds like a lot of coffee. Or is it okay to use smaller amounts while testing and learning? For example, 25 or 30% of the capacity?
Thank you for your lesson aim better coffee and business. i m interested in your advenced roasting machine. 1kg machine is good for artison roasing details. thanks again. way to go. happy new year 2020.hope your dreams come true.from Korea. dolce Lee.
First you need to get your Roaster to heat, Add the beans and turn off the gas. Then do you turn the gas back on at a certain point with in the turning point?
Thanks,
This is fantastic and very informative. I am getting confused with the volume mass lingo though. In standard units mass is a quantity in kilo, the volume is the space something consumers. Density is the mass per volume.
Noticed the same. I thin he mixed it up a couple of times. Mass is measures in kg or lb
If you have a denser coffee like an Ethiopian, the volume (size) will be smaller which when weighed at 80% will create more air space in the drum. So should you put the same volume in each time so the air space in the drum is always consistent ?
excellent
You seem to have confused "mass" and "density" at 16:30. You said something like, "...two balloons the same size, that is the mass." They are actually the same volume (in cubic centimeters as an example). So, if two balloons are of the same size, they are the same volume.
So more accurately for the bean discussion, if two balloons are of the same size, one filled with water and one filled with feathers, they have the same volume, but the water filled balloon has more mass. The one filled with water ALSO is greater in density.
Randy G. yea mass equals weight on earth. Confusing.
is confusing....I agree with you....
James Clary actually weight and mass are different
Hi. How do you define your turnaround time. Is it when ROR reaches 0 or when the bean temp and Environment temp line cross? Love the videos!
When ROR hits 0.
I think the "test your skills" quiz URL is broken 😢 Id love to test my knowledge! Tried couple of different videos and seems it doesnt exists anymore. Is it still available somewhere or the link just broken?
when (how long after roasting) would you recommend us to cuppng the batch? and
How long should we keep tracking (cupping) the roasting batch for ?
thanks guys
I may be mistaken but I seem to recall that the SCAA states coffee shall be cupped within 24 hours of roasting, and must be off-gassed at least 8 hours prior to cupping.
Perfect
The explanation of density was a bit off.
If you have two balloons that are the same size, then they have equal volume and equal mass (assuming they are the same weight of plastic).
If you put water in one balloon, then the mass of that one increases.
Density = Mass/Volume and so the balloon with water in it has greater density.
As far as keeping historical data can you apply this to seasoning greens? I am assuming seasoning greens do not come consistent as far as density is concerned.
In my experience, seasoning greens behave very differently than fresh coffee. Seasoning greens tend to be older, discarded coffee that doesn't have as high a moisture content as does fresh. When I seasoned my new roaster, the profiles I captured aren't very close to those for my fresh (real) batches.
+Celegroz Thanks for the honest feedback. I was figuring that would be the case, hearing it from someone helps. I finally was able to find 50lbs to practice roast locally. Now it's time to go to work.
Hi, nice video and good luck with the channel!
I'm from Indonesia and want to start trading specialty coffee such as Luwak Coffee and Javanese Arabica to the US, any tips on where or whom I should offer my products to? Thanks in advance!
Awesome information and instruction. If the beans are more dense, they will weigh more and there will be less of them to make up the initial charge size (say 1kg). Would it turn around at approximately the same point as a less dense but greater quantity of bean (still 1 kg) ?
Probably not. There really isn't all that much variation in the number of seeds and the moisture content of 10-12% will be the same by weight. Measuring density is a good way to learn to avoid heat defect because less dense coffee is generally more suspectable to heat defect than denser coffee.
Lets say I have a legit roaster (which I don't yet-I have a Gene Cafe which I can't do much manipulation to). Do you have a recommendation for a gas roaster, as to how hot to start? Also, you mentioned turning off the gas before turnaround, I think, can you explain this? I feel as though I"m missing some info, can you point me to some other videos? Thanks! I am excited to learn MORE about roasting and make even better coffee!!!
Go to our website and order a 1kg roaster? Turning the gas off and running for the first minute or two on latent heat is a control technique that brings the drum temperature closer to an equilibrium point with the bean mass temp. This increases immediate sensitivity of the BT probe to changes in applied heat and increases an operators control over the roast profile.
New to roasting here. Just getting started (including roaster shopping). What do you mean when you say those of you more up north use the full kilo instead of 80%? Any advice on a good roaster for someone who is looking at getting into roasting coffee to sell? My dream is opening up a shop but I want to get my product out there and make sure it’s high quality. Anything helps, thanks!
Great video by the way
Hi Ryan, Dave was referring to using a North Roaster. The North Roasters are built to roast the entire stated amount e.g. 1kg roasts 1kg coffee, vs others that would roast 750-800 g. This is the case with my Hottop.
Hi thanks for the video. I use 1 kg roaster machine and i'm a newbie. I have some questions:
• Usually how long ideally it takes to pre-heat the roaster to reach 400?
• Should we treat the same if we roasting at 300 gr, 500 gr, 800 gr, 1kg?
Thanks! :)
Hi Dave, Thanks for your feed back. It really helpful. Cheers
So does more dense coffee turn around earlier or later? Joe says both in the Video (denser coffee-less beans-> smaller effect // denser coffee absorbs heat more-> turnaround lower)
This seems confusing because Joe didn't reference seed size. Dense seeds are more resistant to heat than less dense seeds. Small seeds take heat easier than large seeds. Your turnaround will be a function of thermocouple characteristics, batch size, and seed moisture, density, size and geometry. If you really want to understand how these factors affect the roast profile and the way coffee tastes, take the Roaster 101 class.
i have some questions that is so confusing me.
1. they said that more dense coffee is less contact with metal and other coffee. so, it have less effect on the number that is drum's degrees. if that is true, the more dense coffee's turning point will more higher than the other. because more dense coffee have less effect on the number which is drum's degrees.
2. but they said that the more dense coffee absorb the heat energy more quickly. so, more dense coffee's turning point is lower than the less dense coffee.
3. also they said that less dense coffee absorb the heat energe quickly. so, the turning point of less dense coffee is higher than the other. omg..
so.. what is correct???
Junho Park, I do understand the confusion since I've also been confused based on the explanation in the video. After analysing it based on my knowledge, not of roasting, I decided to attempt a clarification. Still, if my reasoning is wrong, I will stand corrected.
To start with, perhaps worth defining turning point (TP). From what I understand, TP is a point determined by temperature and time. Therefore TP is the point in time in which the inside of the coffee roaster drum reaches an equilibrium temperature with the coffee beans.
Now about density: based on what was stated in the video, a more dense coffee has the capacity to absorb heat faster than less dense coffee. However, considering the lower number of more dense coffee beans in the roaster drum (relative to less dense coffee) I would argue that the beans make more contact with the inside metals of the drum but less contact with the probe. That effect of making less contact with the probe, will prolong the turning point (in time and temp) since presumably, it will take longer time to reach the expected equilibrium temperature. Conversely, the fact that higher density beans have higher capacity to absorb heat, especially from the hot air inside the drum, in reality may not take as long of a time as the probe indicates to reach the turning point temperature; therefore the reading can be misleading.
In other words, with more dense coffee, we have two factors pulling each other in opposite direction (fewer coffee beans touching the probe and more heat absorption capacity per beans), it is important to identify which factor is stronger in order to properly identify the real turning point. If we assume that both factors balance out, then we shouldn’t worry about it and just go with the probe readings.
On the other hand, with less dense coffee the opposite would apply.
Consequently I would argue and conclude that it takes less time for dense coffee to reach the temp of TP than for less dense coffee.
Something important to consider with density is whether it is the result of higher moisture in the beans or is due to the natural structure of the bean. Depending on what is making the bean more dense, will call for alternative roasting process (TP, temp and time).
hi Sir joe , correct me if im wrong , at the end of the curve on the development its better to have a flat but not so flat just to save some sugar ...
and my rate of rise is like 3.0 to 2.5 its not crushing but when i found out its like more sweet when i cupped
Sure. It's never wrong to roast the way your coffee tastes better.
@@MillCityRoastersMN thanks boss
hey. it's really good video!! what is the smallest amount of coffee what i can roast with the best consistency? thank you !! and wich size roaster best for that? :D thank you!!
Hi, thanks for watching! The answer to that question depends in large part on your roasting equipment. What are you roasting on?
Unless I’m misunderstanding, At 14:00 minutes you say the you say the higher density takes on heat slower the you immediately say a lower density coffee needs more time to take on heat, so I’m a bit confused
Higher density coffee requires more energy to drive the roast. You'll have to increase your applied heat or reduce the batch size to drive the roast. Lower density coffees are typically larger and softer seeds. They are more fragile and more likely to slip over into heat defect. You'll often need to reduce the applied heat and roast more slowly and gently to prevent tipping, scorching, facing and other irrecoverable forms of heat damage.
@@MillCityRoastersMN I had this same question. At 10 minutes, he mentions that if we assume batch size and starting temperature are the same, then a denser bean will have a smaller volume, taking up less space in the drum. He says this allows more hot air to circulate around the beans and heat them more efficiently. He then draws a higher turning point in response to this. Is that incorrect? Later in the video they both say that denser beans result in lower turning points.
5:20 - That's the Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics .... the differing temperatures of two systems will arrive at a third temperature together over time. 😁
Snazzy.
@@MillCityRoastersMN Aerospace Engineering degree .... I must have been paying attention in class that day. Great video too by the way. Great explanation I appreciated it. 😊
I have seen many drum roasting, one thing that I am not quite certain is that does the gas flame has any health concern when the beans were burning directly under the flame ? Does it produces hydrocarbon which stick on the beans?
Nope. Coffee offgasses CO2 and steam throughout the roast. That pressure repels absorbtion. This is why coffee bags are vented. Besides that, our burner efficiency is so high that we have effectively no unburned gas.
@@MillCityRoastersMN Thank you! Appreciated!
Thank you for your teaching. Can we determine the nature of the coffee before roasting it? In other words, can we tell by the naked eye whether the coffee bean is dense or not dense?
Seed density can be measured but not with "the naked eye" and it's not an indication of flavor. You have to roast and taste the coffee.
Dear Joe and Dave ! Greeting ! I want to open a coffee shop here in Bangaldesh. But here coffee is really expensive. Is it possible to get the same coffee available here ( Only Nescafé by Nesle , Switzerland ) if I import Raw coffee beans / Roasted Coffee beans and then roast / grind the beans by a roasted & grinding machine ? I will be glad if you answer my question. Have a good day !
Hi Mohammad, contact me please if you wanna talk about coffee. Cheers Danny (chojer112@gmail.com)
Soon I will contact you.
i can provide you Toraja Arabica bean from indonesia. Dont hesitate to contact me at andri.ksm.787@gmail.com.
btw, i also open a cafe here. 😊
if you get all of your data from doing like you said 80% on a 1kg roaster would then your data remain constant if you moved to a larger machine? or would you have to do all of your tests over?
The data you collect is sensory, not mathematical. The smaller charge tells you what the coffee is capable of and suggests event times and percentages that transfer proportionately to another machine. It's a valuable starting point, not an algorithm.