my take on the theme is "mistakes". the nomai risked everything, and even set up the destruction of their own space stations for the pursuit of the eye.. but its not a bad thing. the owlks destroyed their home to worship something that ended up being the thing that would kill them, and brought and accidentally invented an afterlife for themselves after an owlk dies mid test.. and the hatchling makes mistakes and dies over and over again to discover and learn things about the solar system and the nomai. mistakes are important for progress, so its ok to mess up sometimes and get eaten by a giant space angler.. because now you've learned something
The owlk probably saw a vision and misinterpreted it thinking they would be destroyed by it when it actually saves the species who makes it there cause either way everything ends no matter what from what I understand
@@lasthopelost9090I prefer it if the owlks’ vision tells them what the eye does (restart a universe and create a new one in the observer’s image) and still chose their actions despite this (they essentially learnt of the heat death of the universe for the first time and realised that their legacy would eventually die out and everything they’ve done is meaningless). It better explains the prisoner’s motivations and it fits better with the DLC’s theme of fear and the prisoner’s words in the ending.
Everything we learn about them from their own words and actions seems to point to them being fundamentally well-intentioned, but also dangerously reckless.
Sending again because *someone* removed it. Daz wasn't saying that they didn't know how the mechanics of sending things into black holes worked. He was pointing out that if you were experiencing time being rewritten (i.e. sending your consciousness back in time, that always remembered what happened in the previous loop and so would witness themselves changing what they remembered at the time), it's different to having been sent your memories from the previous loop; even if it's virtually the same effect and leads to you being the same person in both cases as Cassava points out, Daz is saying that how that effect occurs is different in the two scenarios and that's why the two ways in which those two things can be sent back in time are different. It's purely a philosophy question. It's nothing about how they know the negative time interval works or what they don't know. It's ironic to say the community has misconstrued it when you have. Cassava is absolutely justified in what he's saying because regardless of the difference, this new you formed would act the same way in both of the hypotheticals put forward. If advancements in the memory statues, masks and storages were made by the Nomai and they actually got to implement recording, transmitting and storing consciousness like the Owlks (minus the transmission part), then by the time the events of the game occurs, things would still occur in the same way, except now Hatchling and Gabbro can't say they're receiving memories of what happened to them in the future. Both of their consciousness are not receiving anything, they're the exact same ones from the previous loops. I don't get why you're bringing in that statement from Gabbro either. It's just a joke about how calling it a time loop implies you know what the 'shape' of time is.
Exactly my thoughts. This take on the Nomai just seems kind of bizarre to me? Especially when he was talking about how "embarassing" the Nomai's failure to blow up the Sun was, and how it's further reason that we shouldn't take their word for stuff, as "they don't know everything." Take that, the misinterpretation of a purely philosophical question, and Gabbro being Gabbro, and the reasoning just seems all over the place.
Outer Wilds is my favorite game and I wish I could have more, which is why I really like your videos and making me think. Here's my 2 cents: It is a true time loop instead of multiple timelines. I'm basing this on the broken causality ending where you turn off the experiment in the high energy tests after the probe comes out but before the other goes in. If this was multiple timelines it would mean that one timeline just lost a probe and another gained one. This might be a problem for the conservation of energy but then I think when you meet yourself in the ash twins would be a problem too, which it isn't. It's only a problem when you don't go back in time physically and break causality. So you're not meeting yourself from a separate timeline but from a different time loop. Yet, I'm still not sure and I'm not sure I can find the words to express what I'm trying to convey. Thank you for giving me something to think about.
Youll find that exact sentiment in my theories. Like...Im sorry if this sounds like nonsense. Its so hard to put into words and convey to other people. But I promise Ive thought it out! And yes. I agree. One universe would gain a scout. And one universe would lose one. But the fact is this happens the instant it goes through the black hole. If there were any issue with conservation or casualty i feel like it should happen right away. But on the other hand. If it were something wrong with time. Say the future being altered. Then itd sort of make sense. Us meeting self wouldnt change time too much. But Both us and self staying? Oh boy howdy itd change a lot. And i think thatd be enough to break spacetime. Im not sure if you watched the whole video. But I specifically call out the "break causality" as something we shouldnt trust. Its fine if youd like to. But I just cant. Its literally the first hypothesis of the Nomai and Us. But its not something we could test. And what we see seems consistent with causality imo. We obviously enter the black hole first. Doesnt make sense to me. But anyway. Glad to help you think about it in new ways! Thats the point of the video!
personally, with everything we're shown, i believe that going through the black hole, when you plop out of the white hole, its actually another timeline that you enter, which would explain how there can be multiple versions of you via the atp, how the scout can technically multiply even if you turn off the black hole and preventing the universe from ever creating 2, and adding more power causes the time between the two timelines too change, letting you effectively go back in time of functionally identical timelines, though that does beg the question of if there is a timeline where the universe isnt ending for another million years, and if our hatchling could be sent into that one with the atp, and more, but i believe it makes sense, this would also mean that the protagonist dies with each time loop, unless their essence is being sent back, which i presume is, and spoilers ahead for people who havent played through echoes of the eye possible since the owlks seem too be capable of capturing a soul or whatever if they die by the flame with an artifact. of course this does raise issues, but with the evidence given, im assuming thats the most likely situation
The "You destroyed the fabric of spacetime" ending implies regular black hole time travel is fragile single-timeline kind, where the universe explodes if you cause a paradox. However, inside the Ash Twin project you can meet yourself and then prevent your met self from existing without causing a paradox. I wonder if the Nomai misunderstood black hole time travel and accidentally created a new kind of time travel (e.g. a "rewind the universe" kind) with the Ash Twin project. That sounds like the kind of mistake a Nomai would make...
Ok. But cause and effect is a certain thing. Cause must happen beforeeffect. Its not "something must have a cause whether it be later or before. Its in that order for a reason. Cause. Then effect. So if thats what is causingthe spacetime ending then the paradox should technically happen the instant something exits a white hole. Since nothing entered a black hole to cause it yet. Yet that doesnt cause an actual issue until a small while later. This , by definition, isnt cause and effect. Its effect, cause... who cares. But at the very least we agree o n one thing. They had to have misunderstood the time travel phenom. I also agree the Nomais version of time travel really cant be compared t other established time travel scenarios. It seems to be a brand new form or established time travel
The ATP time travel is using the multiple timeline model, but the paradox endings use the single timeline model, and I think that this is a mistake by the developers, and I just treat the paradox endings as non-cannon. Edit: A paradox is caused when something exits a white hole, but doesn't enter a black hole (for example the scout or self). But in the ATP information about 9 000 001 probe launches can exit the white hole, while information about 9 000 002 probe launches enters the black hole. The only differences are that A is transporting matter, while B is transporting information, and that A is when more things exit than enter, and B is in the other way. I wonder what would happen if someone erased all data from the masks. Would that cause a paradox?
For me personally I think that it is a time loop and you are sending your memories back in time, however I don't see any plot holes with that because the information is the only thing being sent back ones and zeros or well whatever the ones and zeros for the Nomai would be. And also I apply Occam's razor for games. It's possible that you are sending information and matter to another universe that is exactly like your old one but x amount of time behind the one you came from and it takes more energy to access timelines that are further behind and that's what the ash twin project is doing and it's reached out to, or created, 9 million different timelines. Or it could just be sending the info back in time. And because we don't and can't know what one it is we pick the simplest answer that works for the phenomenon we're describing. Again it very well can be it reaching out to or creating timelines, however because we can't truly 100% know what is actually going on we have to make a decision on what one seems likely to each other. And anyone who claims that a game has plot holes based on a judgement they made is pretty dumb and I can 100% agree with you on that one.
You can see for about the first year of my channel I followed this concept. But after analyzing what we see I no longer believe it. We send memories back. We dont send the universe back. We dont send ourself back. So how are we in the past there to receive them. According to the dev themselves. The answer depends on whether or not we are rewritting time. I usually follow occums razor as well. But the fact is when I did that the game made little to no sense to me. But the fact is whatever is simpler relies on things we dont know in the game. We do know the universe is a multiverse. There has been a universe before ours. There is a universe after. This cycle could be endless. And the eye exists outside of time. We also know quantum objects exist. Considering all of these things together. It seems simpler to me that there is a multiverse. One universe that accounts for each quantum possibility we see.
@@TheLoreExplorer That's fair, I just still personally see it as less likely for a quantum many worlds hypotheses to be correct due to just how many times it's been misused or misunderstood. However I do see why your points make a lot of sense I just have a bad habit of applying a bit too much of the real world to games that can have their universe work in any way they want. I would continue but I just woke up and my brain is still a bit mush, maybe if I'm feeling down to clarify why I still think it's time travel in the confines of this game universe in a few hours then I will. But otherwise I hope you have a great rest of your day, and if you're about to head to bed when you read this then I hope you have a good sleep!
That’s my passion as well. I always try to apply real world logic to everything. I was proud I was the one who figured out the nomai shuttles cause it’s just orbital Mechanics. And that’s what drew me to the game. I saw all these real world phenom. Sure they gamified quantum mechanics but even acknowledged that. Then when I got further in. And thought about it way more then I’m ever proud to say. I come to realize every phenom in the game could be connected. And the structure of the universe could explain a lot of what we see. At least IMO. But sadly every single time I mention it I have to say “but we can’t see them even if they are there so. This is just funsies and my head cannon. Either way thanks for being so kind. It’s refreshing after the response I got from the latest video. Be well Lea. Hope to see you around the channel
My defense for the idea that we send memories back is the idea of the probability of our actions occurring. The issue with sending an object back in time is that it has an effect on the world around us which becomes undone if the origin of that object doesn't occur. However if you sent a message back in time telling me to stop JFK's assassination, I could just have easily done that on my own randomly without your guidance since I didn't require any physical help from the future to achieve this feat. That same ruling applies to where we wander to, what codes we put in, and the puzzles we solve in the final loop. Even the computer reading the signals from the probe could just have easily theoretically made up those coordinates or had some misfire in the programming that caused those coords to be printed out. Basically Im suggesting that when we finish the loop our spacetime gets rewritten so that instead of being guided to all these occurrences from our past loop memories, our universe becomes one where each event happened due to random coincidences.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that the Hearthian's universe is fine with time being rewritten (by sending back memories and thus changing the Hatchling's consciousness in a way that leads them to take different actions) and only needs closed time loops for +actions+. This is the difference between sending memories back in time and sending the whole body. When you send the whole body, now there are 2 independent, acting bodies for the entirety of the negative time in a warp core trip. So, from that point onwards, you must have a +cause+ for the +actions+ taken by the second body, as well as the actions for the first one, and that's why space-time breaks if you don't jump into the Ash Twin Project black hole after creating Self (because you'd go back to only having causality for one of the bodies, and the universe "crashes"). On the other hand, when sending information back in time, you still only have the one acting body. Yes, time is being rewritten, but the universe doesn't care because it doesn't need to handle causality for the previous loops (unlike when you actually jump in with your material body, during which it has to handle causality for 2 loops simultaneously.) And the universe "doesn't care" +why+ your actions are different, since from the universe's "point of view", the previous loops' actions never actually took place, so you are only taking one set of actions for the first time, every time. (This is just the age old sci-fi debate of whether traveling back in time requires a closed loop so "it always took place", or if every time someone travels back in time, it branches off in a different alternate universe/timeline, except Mobius is bringing a third secret new thing to the debate.) As for the Nomai question on whether there is a "difference" in sending memories back or your whole self, they're not wondering about universe time travel mechanics, it's just another age old philosophical question of "what makes you, you? Is it the physical body, or is it the mind?". If you lost your memories and never got them back, and you rebuilt your life anyway, would you still be the same person you were before losing the memories? If, instead, you were able to put your brain into a different person and keep your own memories (and lose the ones from the host), would you still be you, or would you be the new person? Are you even actually the same person as last week, since present you has an extra week worth of memories that past you doesn't have? The Nomai are just reframing this question under the time travel focus. Fun fact, this is also where the "if a teleport actually creates a perfect copy of you and then kills the original, are you still you" question from many other sci-fi stories falls under, as well.
As I understand, the Nomai were fully able to blow up the Sun, but Pye and Idaea who were responsible for the Sun Station intentionally didn't do it and lied that the Station failed. This is actually a very logical assumption: at the question of time travel, Pye was the most skeptical, and even after they proved and researched this technology, she was too afraid of potential negative consequences, because, as you mentioned, this concept can never be fully understood, it's imposible. Pye didn't want to play with time. There's even a possibility that Idaea didn't participate in this "conspiracy" and Pye sabotaged the Station herself. That would be an interesting plot twist.
While it is an ok assumption Im not sure I agree with you there. Id very much like to. But first. As I mention. Even though Pye disbelieved. She was the first to volunteer to play with time. And as soon as it was confirmed she seemed to jump on board. As for the assumption. We can find actual arguments between the two main creators of the sun station. And it went so far as Ideae getting a mural installed that reminded Pye this sun is just as important as finding the eye. And ideae made sure two statues were put inside the sun station. No other location has two. The only reason I could think theyd do this is if they didnt trust the other person. Im not sure what use itd be. But its odd we find two there. And of course. The famous line. Kindly refrain from going supernova on me before the sun does, Ideae. And other debates can be found elsewhere. Regardless if two Nomai secretly sabotaged the plan. They did so because they didnt understand what thatd entail. Which sort of furthurs my point anyway.
I thought the point of the statue workshop conversation was that Daz and Cassava are both right. While mechanically different actions, only sending back memories means the recipient will never get fatigued since they will awake in whatever state they were in at that point already, they still function as an alteration to time. Something is still different, even if everything happens the same way, because the recipient has those memories and the ability to act on it. The only problem the Nomai really have is that they can't safely test if it really does break causality. We know from the breaking spacetime endings that causality still exists, and it's closer to a single timeline with a series of circles around a single point than a multiverse.
I even say in the video they are right about that in respect to time travel. And I guess I went on to vent about something not too relevant. But the point then and of the video is they arent reliable narrators. And so Daz answering that question with two hypotheticals instead of just working with the mechanism they know to be true is telling to me. I should take more time to write my scripts and iterate things better. Cause its definitely on me for not making that clear. Also , you kind of cant call it causality anymore. If it still exists in a single timeline version then its more like "Cause effect. Effect, cause, who cares". If this were really a causality problem then i feel like the universe shouldve had an issue with it the first time anonna ever used a warp core. Since she arrived somewhere before she left. Effect then cause.(They are ordered for a reason). Now the physics in outer wilds are different. So there is some room for wrangling out of it. But when I analyze the game in this lense it makes very little to no sense to me. And as I mention in the video. I couldve just written it off and said ok. This game makes no sense. BUT instead im trying to work through it doing my best to use in game logic. In my mind causality could exist in every sense of the phrase(which is ordered purposefully) in a parallel timeline scenario. Just one in which causality is relative to the traveler. And as we all know literally everything is relative. So instead of self not having a cause for 22 minutes and that being totally ok. but 5 seconds later and its literally the biggest issue the universe has ever and will ever see. Self would have caused self. The black holes are warped spacetime. If they connect universes itd be one big mess of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff. So as long as the cause happened in one universe first. IE Us jumping into the black hole. Then self could plop up apparently earlier in our timeline having already caused that themselves. And in this scenario time would shatter(spacetime ending) cause time would have changed drastically. If self leaves it would move on as normal hearthian life. If a duplicate us shows up.....Yeah. Time would change. And to be clear the parallel universes would be natural. Not a result of the atp or anything like that. Imo this all fits in with the quantum theory and why we see the uncertainty we see in the game. But of course its all just a theory. Its totally fine to just take the game at face value and stop at "Woah. A bunch of weird stuff is going on. Isnt that so impactful and wonderful?" But thats not for me. I guess you could say im just as blinded as the nomai. I just need those answers for why there is uncertainty. How if the eye needs an observer for the cycle to continue, and even in our universe it came so close to being silenced forever, how did it continue for so long? And so on. Sorry for the long response. I bet my highschool teachers wish id put this much effort into my essays.
@@TheLoreExplorer It was mainly the line "here's an instance where one Nomai sort of has to be wrong" that caused confusion there, but fair enough. The cause and effect is still there in a single timeline, but as you say here it is relative. To an outside, chronlogical observer it seems like the effect is before the cause, but from the perspective of the person going through the black hole then the cause and effect is the right way around. The cause still happens before the effect, but the effect is visible to others before the cause. Depending on how the time travel works, you could say the effect technically happens at the same time as the cause and the universe updates around it. It might help to think of it like this, the cause isn't so much the act of time travel, as the arrival of something new in the past. The memories arriving is what causes the possibility of change. You bring up meeting yourself at the ATP there, but that does break spacetime unless you send yourself back every loop after that. If parallel universes were in play, then what goes back wouldn't matter because you would always have the output in this other universe. It also means there would be a chance that you could fire your scout into the black hole and not get one out of the white hole due to another universe choosing not to fire at that moment. However, I'm pretty sure the re-appearing scout is always going to happen. The parallel universes you describe already exist and so would have been acting on their own, after all. The only way the parallel universes you describe could exist would be if something happened in all timelines at a non-0 time passing point, and that would deny the possibility of things changing between universes if something has to happen. (On an unrelated note, if you like those sorts of parallell universes, you might like the Zero Escape Trilogy, which goes into interactions between timelines at length once it gets going). As far as I can tell, the only time a parallel universe would form is after the ATP gets shut off, since taking the core out and escaping the sun does not cause a break in spacetime. Until the ATP was activated, things were progressing a certain way, then everything loops around in place for a while before eventually blasting off into the future again when it is deactivated. Whether that is just allowing the same timeline to continue or a new branch seems impossible to tell from our limited perspective, but you could argue that when the memories got sent back time was essentially paused in any universe getting to that point until one resolved it. That would make it a single timeline, but the one that continues isn't the same one that started. One in, one out, hundreds in the middle. Interesting to think about, in any case. It's not really a matter of taking things at face value. I only commented because it seemed like something worth discussing further (and I do appreciate the essay response). I know it wasn't the point of the video overall, but I tend to focus on the mechanics of things and so this was the bit that stuck out to me.
I wonder about fatigue. Physically, the hatchling is well-rested at the start of every loop, but what about mentally? Are they in danger of going crazy from not being able to sleep long enough to dream properly?
@@samuelsimpson7452 Well they already had the sleep. Since each loop starts from that point of rested-ness, just with bigger infodumps into the brain, then it would be like waking up and remembering you had a dream of being really tired from running around underground. You might immediately react with confusion and tiredness, but your body would adjust quickly. For example, if you die by suffocation, the first breath on waking up is louder and more desperate, but then goes quiet as their body realises they're not actually suffocating.
@@AJ-uf4sh I imagine it would eventually, since you still get the actual mental stress and tiredness building up without the effects of the rest the Hearthian was taking as the loop began.
actually, the fact the Nomaïs built a machine capable of destroying the fabric of spacetime (thus destroying the eye? and the whole multiverse?) so easily makes me anxious. I mean they could've do it as they seem not to realise the hazard of the energy lab they created
well , theyd certainly at least interrupt the cycle. Its hard to know if itd destroy the eye , which seemingly exists outside of spacetime. Or if itd destroy the other universes either. It would all depend on how spacetime is shaped and donnected in game. But thats an excellent thought I hadnt considered. But tbh its of no fault of their own. But they were clearly willing to utilize and implement things they didnt fully grasp.
My personal headcannon on the atp matter is that there is a certain albeit incredibly small tolerance for how much matter can be sent through the atp without breaking causality. This is why the atp is able to function and send data back safely, but if we jump through it, it ends up creating a causality break
But time doesnt progress identically. If it were looping. If a comet hit brittles north pole during second 322. It would always do that. This isnt what we see. At least thats my understanding of legitimately looping time.
Well, we do not know if the memory transfer process is perfect or deterministic either. I'd wager not. Hence, the scout we get from HEL is subtly different in some way than the one we throw into the black hole... Maybe the problem becomes when it's not different *enough* - you still have some bits entangled. Then the ATP and HEL would be a giant decoherence deferral machines. With ATP, whole 22 minutes. Hmm. What would happen if you shot a scout into ATP?
Exactly what I've been saying We're playing as the memory of the hearthian not the hearthian himself Evidence is if we go far away from the solar system we don't die by the explosion but the screen fades away and we get sent back in time
The better question then is whether we actually die or just the next iteration thinks we died. Maybe in some alternate universe a Hatchling died of starvation, but we never get to see that. What really bakes my noodle lately is what would happen if somehow you could move Solanum (say by means of building a pad) and copy her. She seems to exist in entanglement with a version of a quantum moon.
I actually just recorded the map and reversed it. But thanks so much! It was definitely something like “yeah. This would work. But a full reverse image would be cooler”. So it’s nice to see it was appreciated!
Technically if you can't theoretically differentiate 2 theories, then they are identical with just different terminologies. The concept of another timeline can't be proven nor disproven (at least with the assumptions in the video), so a philosophical tool to apply would probably be the Occam's razor. But it is kinda interesting how the exact same model can give you 2 completely different moral implications if you explain it in using different terms. And I think the scout is kinda out of the question here: it's the "same". The question was formulated more in terms of "are memories the same thing as "me"?", as far as I understand. Technically the term "same" is kinda misleading itself: you can't differentiate any 2 fundamental particles in any way, yet we mostly assume that 2 particles in different locations are "different" and that simply existing throughout time is possible and the particle remains "the same", doesn't get replaced by a "different" particle. I *think* it is again a result of Occum's razor, the word "same" only means as much as what we want it to mean. It is just kinda easier to describe a continuous change as just one "object". It's also unclear how many Nomai logs are simply lost or how many conversations were never written down, so we don't actually know what they may have known or not known. The ultimate conclusion that Nomai aren't some sort of perfect society is right imho, the kids even question their obsession with the Eye and unwillingness to just reunite with another clan first. That probably should have been the first thing to do once you arrive in a new solar system, regardless of it's mysteries. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
One scenario being simpler than the other depends on the structure of the universe though. Ive always found it odd one nomai says "laws about this universe". Ive always gave the benefit of the doubt. And figure its a translation thing. But if there already are multiple universes. I think sending memories to a new timeline is the simpler thing. But if there is only one univers. Sending memories back in time and somehow that rewriting the future seems simpler. The point is we dont know which is happening. And while maybe some smart Nomai could have devised a test they havent. So why shoud we just accept their findings. They saw something amazing and we are seeing their first reactions. Some other logs may be broken or destroyed where they did these tests. But at no point do they demonstrate that knowledge imo.
@@TheLoreExplorer I think "this universe" doesn't imply the existence of others. I say it all the time when refesring to this universe, or I say "our universe," even tho I don't believe there are other universes
Yeah. Ive always given it that benifit of the doubt too. But we know almost for a fact that the outer wilds universe is actually a multilverse. At least in some sense There was one before ours. And one after ours. We are one universe is string of multiverses. And the eye exists outside of time. So very likely in all three of those universes at the same time(in reference to the eye) Its not so far fetched to say there are multiple versions of our own universe as well. If the universal cycle repeated infinitely there would be an infinite number of our identical universe as well. In fact we have a real world hypothesis about it called the many worlds hypothesis.
I feel like you often put words into my mouth. I never claimed to prove anything. None of this is proof. Im just stating its something we dont know. With an object like the eye that exists outside of time. And 3 known universe to have existed. it seems like from perspectives of the eye , which exists outside of time, it possible there is a multitude of universe. While each individual universe would stay as such from its own viewpoint. The eye seems to be a connections between them all. So its possible they are all connected and connected through time via the eye. Hence a multiverse.
I think the reason that most folks take what they read at face value is that like, what other option do we have? Healthy speculation and doubting is good when theorizing, but I don't think it hurts to lean on what we're given. Good video though :) I think it's a good reminder
We have the game itself. Ive , at least personally, have found answers to most of these questions by connecting in game phenomenon and using the rules we see rather than the rules we read. I understand thats not for everyone. And I always acknowledge there is nothing wrong with not doing it. Its just after taking the game at face value. Then scrutinizing that take. Ive found believing in what we see as a whole is better than judging things as they come. I just had someone tell me they never realized the time loop didnt start with us. Cause it looks like it does. Idk. Just think its flawed. Its personally led me to less plot holes or questions. But im sure for most my take adds 1000 questions. So people tend to dismiss it. And its not easy to do. Its just frustrating when people do this and then claim the games bad because plot holes.
I guess you could say the same thing with who's interpretation you would take with the Eye of the Universe as there are quite a few interpretations in the game. You have the Nomai who (if I remember correctly) see nothing wrong with the Eye and devote their whole life towards learning about it. Then you have the Owlks who also devoted themselves to learning about the Eye, however they also had a vision which I'd assume had different interpretations, as the majority believed that the Eye will kill everything if you interact with it or you had someone like the Prisoner who I'd assume wasn't scared of the Eye and wanted to learn more about it, a bit like the Nomai. This could therefore show that you shouldn't really know who to trust. I feel like most people trust the Nomai + Prisoner, because that's all that they had been taught, however, the majority of the Owlks could be correct as to say that the Eye is something evil but only issue being is that we only really have a handful of reels that explain their point of view. I feel that your video brought up a very good point, and I'm glad in some ways, as it provides more for me to think about the game and make more interpretations.
What I find interesting is the vision the owls had was just that, a vision. We as the hatchling actually went into the eye, entangled with it, and witnessed the creation of a new universe. We know that the eye isn't evil because we saw the outcome. The owlks don't see what happens after a conscious observer interacts with the eye. They might have only seen the supernova, or the insinuation of a supernova, that ended the universe.
@@Stinkuh69 I feel that it's difficult to be certain whether or not the Owlks had more than just a vision, because a lot of information had been removed by the Owlks themselves, and we pretty much have the remainder of the information to go by. But I feel like the creation of the new universe is such a strange thing to think about in itself, as it also has its own interpretations, from us and the Hatchling. From the Hatchling's perspective, the new universe "changes" based on whether the Hatchling saw Solanum or the Prisoner and if the Hatchling loses their scout in the Eye. I feel that in the end, what you said is the most likely theory in my eyes anyway, but it's difficult for me to say it's definite because of my previous 2 points in this reply, and hence it's somewhat fun creating theories/disproving/adding uncertainty some of them.
I believe the negative time interval has to be sending the ACTUAL object back in time because we go through black holes regularly and it always works exactly as expected with everything exactly the same, we’re teleported as the same person with the same memories with everything around us the exact same, if we ended up in a different universe you could easily argue we’d be disconnected from the ash twin project all together
That may all be true. But just take a look at the self ending. They do get disconnected from the statue. They naturally remember the last loop while we get the memories sent via statue. They also wake up in a universe that ISNT "exactly the same" .(They start the loop in the atp with a version of us elsewhere. Two us's. Not exactly the same. Also the quantum fluctuations). And the negative time interval is still possible without anything entering a black hole. So I dont see how "the actual object" can leave a white hole without ever having entered a black one. You can say "well thats why the spacetime ending happens". But if that were the case then itd happen in the 0.00001 seconds in which that always happens. Because that literally always happens when an object enters a black hole. So I just dont understand how people reconcile all of this with what the game tells vs shows us.
If you think self(a literal example of what we are talking about) is irrelevant that actually explains a lot to me about your comments. Thats literally the only time someone would even be able to disconnect from a statue(and they actually do) via blackhole. The hearthian who wakes up at the campfire is the hearthian already connected to the statue in that timeline(or universe). And when using a normal black hole youd be sent to an identical parallel universe. That timelines statue would just keep recording as if nothing happened. The statues can pick us up when we switch forms or consciousnesses without missing a blink. The simulation shows this to us. So this wouldnt even be odd. Plus literally everytime we use a black hole there is a "dupe" of us in the same universe for .00001 seconds. Using your own logic one of them MUST be disconnected from the statue.(cause the statue cant connect to two) So even then answering the ops question with your own logic is still "well, one does get disconnected from their statue". Also....cyclones and the meteors arent quantum. Or micro. No micro quantum fluctuation could create entire cyclones or meteors. A micro fluctuation is a single particle or atom. And these things dont even act quantum.
I think superposition is in play with time travel, I think all timelines are simultaneously true. Each time the player dies, it would effectively be blinking your observation of this timeline black, then opening your eyes again in a separate timeline. We perceive each strand of time as independent, but really they all participate in the rope of time. So it’s simultaneously true time travel and timeline jumping imo
Certainly, the Nomai weren't perfect. They got so caught up in doing amazing science things that they didn't stop to ask questions like: "Is there a safer and more practical way to get what we want?" They also seemed to have an extreme aversion to conflict and violence, to the point where such solutions never even occurred to them. No one said "Hey, those guys are going to blow up the sun! We should stop them by any means necessary, even if we have to use force." It also would have been simple for them to build weapons and kill all the anglerfish so they could have free access to the Vessel, but apparently they only built things that exploded by accident. :)
A few Nomai did confront the others. Tried to convince them its irresponsible. But the others thought the risk was worth it. One Nomai even put a mural in the sun station with a scale. On one side the the symbol for the eye. On the other the symbol for the sun. This was to remind everyone the suns(and its system) safety was just as important as finding the eye. The rest of the nomai agreed with that sentiment to a certain extent. But they were confident in their plan and thought the risk was more than worth it. As for violence. Yeah. The nomai probably "evolved" past that. Also they did stop to think what could power such a thing. Since the energy needed was exponential they couldn't power it conventionally. And so they had to try to use the sun. I also think they were sort of blinded bt their mission. I doubt many of them even heard or read it. But a nomai child even thought they were being silly and should instead focus on making their own vessel. All theyd need to recreate is a coordinate input system. And given the advanced nature of the space crafts they have made(sun station , orbital probe cannon) Id say itd probably be easy for them. They wouldnt even have needed to go to the vessel or bramble. But the eye just superseded most rational thought imo
I actually side with Cassava’s view. As a consequentialist, it doesn’t matter if there’s a difference in a parallel universe or the same timeline, we can only perceive the instance we are in, and can only effect change in this instance. The means are Very important to the ends, but it is only the ends which we see having an effect.
I agree for the most part. I tell people about simulation theory much the same. Pointless to differentiate. But in this case. I think communication between all these timelines are possible. Specifically through the atp. So we could perceive and even effect these parallel timelines.
In the video I mention the conversation was a philosophical one. Just as Daz did I gave examples. His examples. Then said I agree with daz in the sense that we dont know whats going on. And showed how daz example wouldnt be the same thing in regards to everything. Just the same in regards to memories and us. But daz gave these mutilple mechanical examples. Which to me, is pointing to the fact the nomai dont know which one of these hypotheticals are true. As far as memories and ourself goes theyd be the same. Both instances would accomplish that. But the mechanisms are different. And those possible differences prove the nomai havent mastered everything about them yet. They dont entirely know what they are talking about as this is the first time they are experiencing it. And in the terms of the memory statues they literally never experienced it. So why should we trust them? Thats the entirety of the video. Not proving one thing one way or the other. I just wanted to have an open conversation about why we should trust the nomai logs, us , gabbro, and self. Or not. Sorry if that wasnt elaborated furthur. Thought the intro made it clear thats what this was about Anway, If youd like to carry on that conversation id be happy to. But i was never trying to prove the multiverse vs universe theory in this vid
You can skip over my points all you want bud. Its not worth going in circles. Maybe you should go back and watch the video where i say they were talking "philosophically" and give what can only be hypothetical examples straight from daz. Also Casavva says the same thing twice. Thats why i said he may be teasing his husband. Sort of dismissing him. Anyway in the video i say Yes. technically both scenarios would be sending you back in time.". The point with the whole video...is thats not all that matters here. We are talking about reading everything the nomai said as gospel. Reading a philosophical conversation and taking it as fact is the definition of unreliable information.
How does people take what the Nomai say as 100% facts? I think the game does a pretty good job on showing us that the Nomai are imperfect like us. They have doubts, although they are very smart, they are still learning, they make mistakes, etc. And I think the title of this video leads us to think that they are trying to deceive us. They aren't. We just have to take what they say with a grain of salt.
Of course the title in "incendiary". But its applicable and I address that very early on to make sure people dont get the impression thats what the vidoes about. But I have hundreds of videos focusing on outer wilds. Explainer videos. Theories. Sort of video essays. And the most pushback to them I get is in the form of "Well, the nomai say this and so youre wrong". A ton of people believe just it all. They think the nomai logs are the devs speaking to them or something. And all my point was was your first paragraph. The game shows us this isnt true. And so people shouldnt blindly accept what they say. You sort of have to remember not all of these videos are for people who beat the game 100% and fully understand it to the extent that you can. I did a video recently as simple to focusing on the fact that "The first time we wake up isnt the beginning of the time loop". And a ton of people were mind blown by that. So I thinks it helpful to explain why the nomai shouldnt just be taken as arbiters of truth.
At about 6:00 in the video, you talk about sending memories vs sending bodies. If you go the the core of the ash towing and go into the black hole in the looping section; you will later find yourself there at the next loop. This proves that there will be two versions of you. This also proves that it is different then sending memories.
Well. No. It was never memories back Body. It was their essence as a person. But self does prove sending someone and sending memories are different. The argument is if you send the memories. It’s the same as sending your essence back.
I think people want to believe the Nomai at face value because they embody so much of what we wish humanity would be: curious and cooperative even when not in agreement. I'm sorry to hear people have been mean though. That's the opposite of that ideal!
Oh. Yeah. Thanks. It is the internet so I dont know what Im expecting. But even reading all these comments will show rude people. I try to encourage people to be open minded. Listen. Anf if they dont agree at the end then we move on. But that isnt good enough for some. I just need to get past being affected by comments. But its hard when you try to read and interact with as many as possible.
I trust the Nomai as engineers and scientists since their results speak for themselves. Like you say, there's nothing falsifiable about something to distinguish between things like the selfsame probe or a duplicate from another timeline. But as you know science is only concerned with the testing of falsifiable statements, so for them to not pursue a discussion further than what amounts to a quick chatroom discussion about what it means to have your memories transferred, I personally don't think that makes them untrustworthy as scientists or engineers. That said, for much of the game the only ones we see chatting to each other are the scientists and engineers, and those messages are basically what amount to social media posts. And we all know how silly it can be to try and trust someone only based on their social media posting :p
But the results you see may not be the whole story. I understand it’s pointless to differentiate if you can’t distinguish or test. Like we might as well be in the simulation theory. Doesn’t matter. Can’t distinguish one way or the other. But In this case I think they could. Here’s a simple fact. A scout exits a white hole even if one never enters the black hole. Sure. That causes the space time ending and something the nomai never saw. But it seems they never even thought about it. My first thought was how can we even try to justly claim something entering the black hole causes the exit. It happens even if it never enters. The excuse is, well that’s why spacetime ends. Something that shouldn’t happened did. But if that were the case it should happen instantaneously as it exits before it entered. Cause the exact same thing happens. Something happened without the cause entering the black hole. The fact is if you broke causality. It’s silly to later claim causality is an issue. It wasn’t when you broke it. Why should it be now?
I listened to it before. They do mention a causal loop. But then went on to address it further. Alex also mentions in the background "though I dont think thats how they work". But lets ignore that since its not too clear what hes referring to there. They go on to add that the ending was added because the nomai wouldve just been able to duplicate objects and get infinite anything. Who needs the sun station when we have a battery we can dupe? And so they added an ending to prevent that glitch in the physics. So its not like they were worried about causal loops before that. It was an afterthought after the games main premise was well underway. Youd also have to change the meaning of the phrase so much that its essentially just a new thing. If the cause happens first sometimes. Then its "Cause and effect or effect and cause. Either way really." And this is outer wilds. So that is possible. Im not writing it off. Ive seen someone call it a promise to the universe which must be fulfilled. Which I liked ver much because it seemed romantic to me. But speaking honestly and to my best knowledge. I dont think thats how causal loops work. I think in a causal loop the first effect has to cause the thing that causes it in the first place. So the scout exiting the white hole would have to somehow cause it to enter the black hole. Which it doesnt. So they may have gotten some phrases mixed up. Or maybe I have. But one thing I know for sure. A scout exits a white hole even if it doesnt enter a black hole. It seems impossible to me that there is a cause and effect relationship there. But I could be wrong. Thanks for sharing that podcast with me though. Hadn't heard it in a while and itll be great background sound for elden ring.
I think that the negative time interval is because the object is from the future, because if we remove the black hole core ,the object from the past comes from the white hole. Then how did it leave the black hole? And that's what breaks the space-time continuum.
Maybe reiterate this because I cant understand it. You call the object both from the future and past. But think about this. We shoot our scout towards the black hole and then turn off the power. A scout still comes out of the white hole. How could you possibly claim the exiting was caused by the entrance. The entrance never happened. And if you think something happening without the cause happening is why the spacetime ending happens, then it should happen instantly. Not when the object doesnt enter the black hole.
Hey Lore! Love your videos, recently finished outer wilds and proceeded to binge watch your videos. Just have a quick question about the 14.3 billion years post credit scene. Sometimes it seems to be a normal spherical planet, but occasionally it's almost ring like? Like the surface seems to circle around the frame? Idk if I'm explaining this correctly, but do you know what causes it? Thank you for your time!
I suppose I havent tested that yet exactly. But before the dlc the planet was looked like a sphere. But after the dlc came out. It changed to a flat surface that seems to just fall off. Im not sure if that is reliant on having been to the stranger. Thats what I havent tested yet. But thats why its different. Pre and post dlc! Glad youre enjoying the content and feel free to ask away!
That was a pre dlc update literally 3 days before the dlc came out. Only for consoles. It was an update for the dlc man. If youre not reasonable enough to accept that as an answer as to what caused the change idk what to tell you. Ive tried to be kind to you but im beginning to think youre a troll
@@TheLoreExplorer oh okay thanks! Yeah this other person is being a bit annoying, unsure if you think I'm them lol! Just watched your latest video and loved it!
I think you completely missed the point of the debate of sending one's memory back in time. This wasn't scientific questioning, but a philosophical one. It's a nod to the Ship of Theseus.
What if the ending is actually the 9 million+ quantum states of the universe we have observed collapsing into the one true timeline when the eye is observed? I mean, it's not, it's the end of the universe and the start of the next, but it's a valid interpretation.
I think its more than 9 million+. But frankly this is what I believe. The eye is a quantum black hole. And every loop is simply one quantum possibility of the universe. Once observed , the one we reach the eye in becomes certain. And sends things back 14.3 billion years. The reason we see the quantum phenom is because so close to the eye this phenomenon gets more intense. But its just cause the eye is outside of time. Or in other words. It exists in all of these 9 million universes simultaneously. In other words the eye simply "gets confused" and the realities bleed into each other. This would also explain a few basic loop holes the in the game explanations(really the in game characters) seem to leave out. Like why the scout at the hel happens before we shoot our scout. But self doesnt happen until after we cause self. Itd also get past any casual issues as no loops get reverted. All the causes still happen and so on. We just switch to another universe each loop with our memories. And eventually this would lead us to the universe in which we found the eye. Its just a theory. Like you said one valid interpretation. But imo , its the one thats right.
Wait, what’s the anomaly Hornfels refers to? Because I don’t remember them mentioning anything about an anomaly. Also funny Giant’s Deep joke about the Nomai there having a “deep” conversation
Okay so like this game also has examples of quantum mechanics and when you said it cant be true you are and arnt sending yourself back in time. I mean wave particle duality in quantum mechanics, Elitzur-Vaidman bomb tester example, and schrodinger's cat are just a few examples and laws that are true in our own universe where on the smallest scales things dont quiet behave in true and falses. Since noone has observed what's happening when said events of memory transfer happens the mechanics are unknown of what it does. Wether its rewinding the universe creating a new one or destroying the old one to send information backward. Or a mix of all 3 since black holes lie at the edge of both classical and quantum mechanics. Who knows what its actually doing may be completely beyond word or understanding for us.
Jokes on you I never did trust the nomai. I can't see their faces. I previously thought about doing a cast with a philosopher about this game- but then I realized you most likely have much more. Any interest in speaking with a PhD in philosophy about the implications of the game? Granted he hasn't played it much- it may be an idea for you two to play it together and have a sort of professional explanation going on followed by a summary. Otherwise I'll force him to stream the game and make him talk about it alone, really
I would very much enjoy the opportunity to do something like that! I like to think of myself as a philosophical person. But im not so sure Id be able to add that much to the conversation. I could definitely play and prompt him with concepts from the game and get their thoughts. Or maybe just discuss things in general. But imo that would be awesome and amazing. If youd think they would be interested in that then you could give him my email and tell him to email me. So we could talk about what a video like that would look like. And so on. He should be able to use this video to gauge me and see if id be a good partner for a video about philosophy! studio.ua-cam.com/users/videoV5HdXwGOlWg/edit Thanks so much for reaching out!
Probably, but they wouldn’t have any bearing on the events of the story since even if they did, they would be way too far away to make contact prior to the supernova
Lewdwig hits the nail on the head. The Nomai was intelligent and well intentioned, but childish as hell. Not that they cannot have mature concepts, but that their sense of thinking is that of a child. Follow on and orders of magnitude later just don't occur to them. They strip mine, essentially, an entire solar system in an effort to locate a signal that, while exciting, was short lived. They assumed, that sending things through the event horizons was time travel, and not multidimensional theory. They played with quantum mechanics and seemed to never consider that being trapped on the Moon could end up being something like a living hell.
@@AJ-uf4sh that's okay brother :-) we can have different opinions. And you're correct. "Strip mining" was certainly not the best possible term to use. Instead, I will say that after the Vessel disaster, the Nomai focused the efforts of their colonization of the Outer Wilds system on continuing to hunt down the Eye. I understand not giving up because the horse bucked you, even savagely. But Eskalls tribe was... foolishly single minded on the topic. As though pursuit of the signal was the only practical purpose for them. Not recovering/rebuilding/repairing the Vessel. Just this signal.
@@AJ-uf4sh you got me there. They weren't about to throw bodies into the Bramble. I think, given that the Hatchling figured it out, and the presence of an active Nomai beacon in there, the Nomai would have cottened on. But that's part of my point. They didn't try, because to them the Signal was overriding. As far as building a new Vessel... your theories aren't unfounded. I look at the Sun Station (which is a colossal craft) and I wonder if they could have built another one, or not.
@@AJ-uf4sh I mean I don't get why you say they wouldn't be able to replicate the old technology because they did with the black hole forge remember. They created a warp core that they used to send information 22 minutes into the past with the ATP. They already had artificial gravity and considering the Heartheans used it to I don't think it's far fetched that they'd be able to make a smaller version of the vessel which could only be made easier by finding the vessel themselves which is something they could of focused on but didn't. They pretty much already had the tech because they could always use the technology from the pods to which would also help. Idk if I were one of the Nomai who survived the crash I'd be trying to convince people we could leave. I mean once the Nomai returned to the other clans they could always just go back to the Outer Wilds system in search for they eye.
@@AJ-uf4sh I guess you're right but I still don't see why they wouldn't be able to reverse engineer the tech from the pods. Unless the main vessel has other tech not related to the pods which really wouldn't make sense because all the tech we see on the vessel is shown in the Nomai ruins on the planets to. The glowy ball thing, the warp core, artificial gravity and that's all there is on the vessel in game if I'm not mistaken.
Thing is, Nomai could have gone to the vessel and received some coordinates of another clan at any point in time then warped there with the ATP core, but they had trouble actually getting their ships into Dark Bramble apparently. Some technology must have been lost. Note that nomai kids and most adult Nomai didn't even have the spacesuits and the communication walls are somewhat few. These must have been treated like heirlooms or sacred objects. Without the coordinates, it'd take forever to find another clan. (Just see how many tries it took to find one dark object orbiting somewhere in one solar system.)
I knew while writing this people wouldn’t like it. But it’s how I feel. No one should take reactionary words as fact. And the game is designed so we “discover this stuff alongside the nomai”. So those are the words said when they first experienced these phenom. Same goes for us self and gabbro. First time we are experiencing something. Literally no reason we should just take this as fact. Maybe the points I used to show that were bad. But that sentiment is just common practice.
Also like to note a big thing I said. This may be a stupid video. They may be right. I just wanted to start a conversation about unreliable narrators and how the nomai sort of fit that image. I should’ve done it in a different way.
my take on the theme is "mistakes".
the nomai risked everything, and even set up the destruction of their own space stations for the pursuit of the eye.. but its not a bad thing.
the owlks destroyed their home to worship something that ended up being the thing that would kill them, and brought and accidentally invented an afterlife for themselves after an owlk dies mid test..
and the hatchling makes mistakes and dies over and over again to discover and learn things about the solar system and the nomai.
mistakes are important for progress, so its ok to mess up sometimes and get eaten by a giant space angler.. because now you've learned something
not exactly relevant to the video, but the discussion of the nomai and their trustworthiness culminated in.. this word vomit
@@AJ-uf4sh im not exactly saying its their fault, but they messed up their one chance of actually finding the eye (in their lifetime anyways)
The owlk probably saw a vision and misinterpreted it thinking they would be destroyed by it when it actually saves the species who makes it there cause either way everything ends no matter what from what I understand
@@lasthopelost9090I prefer it if the owlks’ vision tells them what the eye does (restart a universe and create a new one in the observer’s image) and still chose their actions despite this (they essentially learnt of the heat death of the universe for the first time and realised that their legacy would eventually die out and everything they’ve done is meaningless). It better explains the prisoner’s motivations and it fits better with the DLC’s theme of fear and the prisoner’s words in the ending.
Everything we learn about them from their own words and actions seems to point to them being fundamentally well-intentioned, but also dangerously reckless.
science compels us to explode the sun
Sending again because *someone* removed it.
Daz wasn't saying that they didn't know how the mechanics of sending things into black holes worked. He was pointing out that if you were experiencing time being rewritten (i.e. sending your consciousness back in time, that always remembered what happened in the previous loop and so would witness themselves changing what they remembered at the time), it's different to having been sent your memories from the previous loop; even if it's virtually the same effect and leads to you being the same person in both cases as Cassava points out, Daz is saying that how that effect occurs is different in the two scenarios and that's why the two ways in which those two things can be sent back in time are different.
It's purely a philosophy question. It's nothing about how they know the negative time interval works or what they don't know. It's ironic to say the community has misconstrued it when you have. Cassava is absolutely justified in what he's saying because regardless of the difference, this new you formed would act the same way in both of the hypotheticals put forward. If advancements in the memory statues, masks and storages were made by the Nomai and they actually got to implement recording, transmitting and storing consciousness like the Owlks (minus the transmission part), then by the time the events of the game occurs, things would still occur in the same way, except now Hatchling and Gabbro can't say they're receiving memories of what happened to them in the future. Both of their consciousness are not receiving anything, they're the exact same ones from the previous loops. I don't get why you're bringing in that statement from Gabbro either. It's just a joke about how calling it a time loop implies you know what the 'shape' of time is.
Who removed it. Very peculiar
Exactly my thoughts. This take on the Nomai just seems kind of bizarre to me? Especially when he was talking about how "embarassing" the Nomai's failure to blow up the Sun was, and how it's further reason that we shouldn't take their word for stuff, as "they don't know everything." Take that, the misinterpretation of a purely philosophical question, and Gabbro being Gabbro, and the reasoning just seems all over the place.
I wouldn’t trust alien goat people with three eyes if I saw them in real life, so this all is fair
I would :0
I definitely would. You just need to open your third eye too
Outer Wilds is my favorite game and I wish I could have more, which is why I really like your videos and making me think. Here's my 2 cents: It is a true time loop instead of multiple timelines. I'm basing this on the broken causality ending where you turn off the experiment in the high energy tests after the probe comes out but before the other goes in. If this was multiple timelines it would mean that one timeline just lost a probe and another gained one. This might be a problem for the conservation of energy but then I think when you meet yourself in the ash twins would be a problem too, which it isn't. It's only a problem when you don't go back in time physically and break causality. So you're not meeting yourself from a separate timeline but from a different time loop. Yet, I'm still not sure and I'm not sure I can find the words to express what I'm trying to convey. Thank you for giving me something to think about.
Youll find that exact sentiment in my theories. Like...Im sorry if this sounds like nonsense. Its so hard to put into words and convey to other people. But I promise Ive thought it out! And yes. I agree. One universe would gain a scout. And one universe would lose one. But the fact is this happens the instant it goes through the black hole. If there were any issue with conservation or casualty i feel like it should happen right away. But on the other hand. If it were something wrong with time. Say the future being altered. Then itd sort of make sense. Us meeting self wouldnt change time too much. But Both us and self staying? Oh boy howdy itd change a lot. And i think thatd be enough to break spacetime. Im not sure if you watched the whole video. But I specifically call out the "break causality" as something we shouldnt trust. Its fine if youd like to. But I just cant. Its literally the first hypothesis of the Nomai and Us. But its not something we could test. And what we see seems consistent with causality imo. We obviously enter the black hole first. Doesnt make sense to me. But anyway. Glad to help you think about it in new ways! Thats the point of the video!
personally, with everything we're shown, i believe that going through the black hole, when you plop out of the white hole, its actually another timeline that you enter, which would explain how there can be multiple versions of you via the atp, how the scout can technically multiply even if you turn off the black hole and preventing the universe from ever creating 2, and adding more power causes the time between the two timelines too change, letting you effectively go back in time of functionally identical timelines, though that does beg the question of if there is a timeline where the universe isnt ending for another million years, and if our hatchling could be sent into that one with the atp, and more, but i believe it makes sense, this would also mean that the protagonist dies with each time loop, unless their essence is being sent back, which i presume is, and spoilers ahead for people who havent played through echoes of the eye
possible since the owlks seem too be capable of capturing a soul or whatever if they die by the flame with an artifact.
of course this does raise issues, but with the evidence given, im assuming thats the most likely situation
The "You destroyed the fabric of spacetime" ending implies regular black hole time travel is fragile single-timeline kind, where the universe explodes if you cause a paradox. However, inside the Ash Twin project you can meet yourself and then prevent your met self from existing without causing a paradox. I wonder if the Nomai misunderstood black hole time travel and accidentally created a new kind of time travel (e.g. a "rewind the universe" kind) with the Ash Twin project. That sounds like the kind of mistake a Nomai would make...
Ok. But cause and effect is a certain thing. Cause must happen beforeeffect. Its not "something must have a cause whether it be later or before. Its in that order for a reason. Cause. Then effect. So if thats what is causingthe spacetime ending then the paradox should technically happen the instant something exits a white hole. Since nothing entered a black hole to cause it yet. Yet that doesnt cause an actual issue until a small while later. This , by definition, isnt cause and effect. Its effect, cause... who cares. But at the very least we agree o n one thing. They had to have misunderstood the time travel phenom. I also agree the Nomais version of time travel really cant be compared t other established time travel scenarios. It seems to be a brand new form or established time travel
The ATP time travel is using the multiple timeline model, but the paradox endings use the single timeline model, and I think that this is a mistake by the developers, and I just treat the paradox endings as non-cannon.
Edit: A paradox is caused when something exits a white hole, but doesn't enter a black hole (for example the scout or self). But in the ATP information about 9 000 001 probe launches can exit the white hole, while information about 9 000 002 probe launches enters the black hole.
The only differences are that A is transporting matter, while B is transporting information, and that A is when more things exit than enter, and B is in the other way.
I wonder what would happen if someone erased all data from the masks. Would that cause a paradox?
For me personally I think that it is a time loop and you are sending your memories back in time, however I don't see any plot holes with that because the information is the only thing being sent back ones and zeros or well whatever the ones and zeros for the Nomai would be. And also I apply Occam's razor for games. It's possible that you are sending information and matter to another universe that is exactly like your old one but x amount of time behind the one you came from and it takes more energy to access timelines that are further behind and that's what the ash twin project is doing and it's reached out to, or created, 9 million different timelines. Or it could just be sending the info back in time. And because we don't and can't know what one it is we pick the simplest answer that works for the phenomenon we're describing.
Again it very well can be it reaching out to or creating timelines, however because we can't truly 100% know what is actually going on we have to make a decision on what one seems likely to each other. And anyone who claims that a game has plot holes based on a judgement they made is pretty dumb and I can 100% agree with you on that one.
You can see for about the first year of my channel I followed this concept. But after analyzing what we see I no longer believe it. We send memories back. We dont send the universe back. We dont send ourself back. So how are we in the past there to receive them. According to the dev themselves. The answer depends on whether or not we are rewritting time. I usually follow occums razor as well. But the fact is when I did that the game made little to no sense to me. But the fact is whatever is simpler relies on things we dont know in the game. We do know the universe is a multiverse. There has been a universe before ours. There is a universe after. This cycle could be endless. And the eye exists outside of time. We also know quantum objects exist. Considering all of these things together. It seems simpler to me that there is a multiverse. One universe that accounts for each quantum possibility we see.
@@TheLoreExplorer That's fair, I just still personally see it as less likely for a quantum many worlds hypotheses to be correct due to just how many times it's been misused or misunderstood. However I do see why your points make a lot of sense I just have a bad habit of applying a bit too much of the real world to games that can have their universe work in any way they want. I would continue but I just woke up and my brain is still a bit mush, maybe if I'm feeling down to clarify why I still think it's time travel in the confines of this game universe in a few hours then I will. But otherwise I hope you have a great rest of your day, and if you're about to head to bed when you read this then I hope you have a good sleep!
That’s my passion as well. I always try to apply real world logic to everything. I was proud I was the one who figured out the nomai shuttles cause it’s just orbital
Mechanics. And that’s what drew me to the game. I saw all these real world phenom. Sure they gamified quantum mechanics but even acknowledged that. Then when I got further in. And thought about it way more then I’m ever proud to say. I come to realize every phenom in the game could be connected. And the structure of the universe could explain a lot of what we see. At least IMO. But sadly every single time I mention it I have to say “but we can’t see them even if they are there so. This is just funsies and my head cannon. Either way thanks for being so kind. It’s refreshing after the response I got from the latest video. Be well Lea. Hope to see you around the channel
My defense for the idea that we send memories back is the idea of the probability of our actions occurring. The issue with sending an object back in time is that it has an effect on the world around us which becomes undone if the origin of that object doesn't occur. However if you sent a message back in time telling me to stop JFK's assassination, I could just have easily done that on my own randomly without your guidance since I didn't require any physical help from the future to achieve this feat. That same ruling applies to where we wander to, what codes we put in, and the puzzles we solve in the final loop. Even the computer reading the signals from the probe could just have easily theoretically made up those coordinates or had some misfire in the programming that caused those coords to be printed out.
Basically Im suggesting that when we finish the loop our spacetime gets rewritten so that instead of being guided to all these occurrences from our past loop memories, our universe becomes one where each event happened due to random coincidences.
I think it's pretty safe to assume that the Hearthian's universe is fine with time being rewritten (by sending back memories and thus changing the Hatchling's consciousness in a way that leads them to take different actions) and only needs closed time loops for +actions+. This is the difference between sending memories back in time and sending the whole body. When you send the whole body, now there are 2 independent, acting bodies for the entirety of the negative time in a warp core trip. So, from that point onwards, you must have a +cause+ for the +actions+ taken by the second body, as well as the actions for the first one, and that's why space-time breaks if you don't jump into the Ash Twin Project black hole after creating Self (because you'd go back to only having causality for one of the bodies, and the universe "crashes").
On the other hand, when sending information back in time, you still only have the one acting body. Yes, time is being rewritten, but the universe doesn't care because it doesn't need to handle causality for the previous loops (unlike when you actually jump in with your material body, during which it has to handle causality for 2 loops simultaneously.) And the universe "doesn't care" +why+ your actions are different, since from the universe's "point of view", the previous loops' actions never actually took place, so you are only taking one set of actions for the first time, every time. (This is just the age old sci-fi debate of whether traveling back in time requires a closed loop so "it always took place", or if every time someone travels back in time, it branches off in a different alternate universe/timeline, except Mobius is bringing a third secret new thing to the debate.)
As for the Nomai question on whether there is a "difference" in sending memories back or your whole self, they're not wondering about universe time travel mechanics, it's just another age old philosophical question of "what makes you, you? Is it the physical body, or is it the mind?". If you lost your memories and never got them back, and you rebuilt your life anyway, would you still be the same person you were before losing the memories? If, instead, you were able to put your brain into a different person and keep your own memories (and lose the ones from the host), would you still be you, or would you be the new person? Are you even actually the same person as last week, since present you has an extra week worth of memories that past you doesn't have? The Nomai are just reframing this question under the time travel focus. Fun fact, this is also where the "if a teleport actually creates a perfect copy of you and then kills the original, are you still you" question from many other sci-fi stories falls under, as well.
As I understand, the Nomai were fully able to blow up the Sun, but Pye and Idaea who were responsible for the Sun Station intentionally didn't do it and lied that the Station failed. This is actually a very logical assumption: at the question of time travel, Pye was the most skeptical, and even after they proved and researched this technology, she was too afraid of potential negative consequences, because, as you mentioned, this concept can never be fully understood, it's imposible. Pye didn't want to play with time. There's even a possibility that Idaea didn't participate in this "conspiracy" and Pye sabotaged the Station herself. That would be an interesting plot twist.
While it is an ok assumption Im not sure I agree with you there. Id very much like to. But first. As I mention. Even though Pye disbelieved. She was the first to volunteer to play with time. And as soon as it was confirmed she seemed to jump on board. As for the assumption. We can find actual arguments between the two main creators of the sun station. And it went so far as Ideae getting a mural installed that reminded Pye this sun is just as important as finding the eye. And ideae made sure two statues were put inside the sun station. No other location has two. The only reason I could think theyd do this is if they didnt trust the other person. Im not sure what use itd be. But its odd we find two there. And of course. The famous line. Kindly refrain from going supernova on me before the sun does, Ideae. And other debates can be found elsewhere. Regardless if two Nomai secretly sabotaged the plan. They did so because they didnt understand what thatd entail. Which sort of furthurs my point anyway.
I thought the point of the statue workshop conversation was that Daz and Cassava are both right. While mechanically different actions, only sending back memories means the recipient will never get fatigued since they will awake in whatever state they were in at that point already, they still function as an alteration to time. Something is still different, even if everything happens the same way, because the recipient has those memories and the ability to act on it.
The only problem the Nomai really have is that they can't safely test if it really does break causality. We know from the breaking spacetime endings that causality still exists, and it's closer to a single timeline with a series of circles around a single point than a multiverse.
I even say in the video they are right about that in respect to time travel. And I guess I went on to vent about something not too relevant. But the point then and of the video is they arent reliable narrators. And so Daz answering that question with two hypotheticals instead of just working with the mechanism they know to be true is telling to me. I should take more time to write my scripts and iterate things better. Cause its definitely on me for not making that clear.
Also , you kind of cant call it causality anymore. If it still exists in a single timeline version then its more like "Cause effect. Effect, cause, who cares". If this were really a causality problem then i feel like the universe shouldve had an issue with it the first time anonna ever used a warp core. Since she arrived somewhere before she left. Effect then cause.(They are ordered for a reason). Now the physics in outer wilds are different. So there is some room for wrangling out of it. But when I analyze the game in this lense it makes very little to no sense to me. And as I mention in the video. I couldve just written it off and said ok. This game makes no sense. BUT instead im trying to work through it doing my best to use in game logic.
In my mind causality could exist in every sense of the phrase(which is ordered purposefully) in a parallel timeline scenario. Just one in which causality is relative to the traveler. And as we all know literally everything is relative. So instead of self not having a cause for 22 minutes and that being totally ok. but 5 seconds later and its literally the biggest issue the universe has ever and will ever see. Self would have caused self. The black holes are warped spacetime. If they connect universes itd be one big mess of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff. So as long as the cause happened in one universe first. IE Us jumping into the black hole. Then self could plop up apparently earlier in our timeline having already caused that themselves. And in this scenario time would shatter(spacetime ending) cause time would have changed drastically. If self leaves it would move on as normal hearthian life. If a duplicate us shows up.....Yeah. Time would change.
And to be clear the parallel universes would be natural. Not a result of the atp or anything like that. Imo this all fits in with the quantum theory and why we see the uncertainty we see in the game. But of course its all just a theory. Its totally fine to just take the game at face value and stop at "Woah. A bunch of weird stuff is going on. Isnt that so impactful and wonderful?" But thats not for me. I guess you could say im just as blinded as the nomai. I just need those answers for why there is uncertainty. How if the eye needs an observer for the cycle to continue, and even in our universe it came so close to being silenced forever, how did it continue for so long? And so on. Sorry for the long response. I bet my highschool teachers wish id put this much effort into my essays.
@@TheLoreExplorer It was mainly the line "here's an instance where one Nomai sort of has to be wrong" that caused confusion there, but fair enough.
The cause and effect is still there in a single timeline, but as you say here it is relative. To an outside, chronlogical observer it seems like the effect is before the cause, but from the perspective of the person going through the black hole then the cause and effect is the right way around. The cause still happens before the effect, but the effect is visible to others before the cause. Depending on how the time travel works, you could say the effect technically happens at the same time as the cause and the universe updates around it. It might help to think of it like this, the cause isn't so much the act of time travel, as the arrival of something new in the past. The memories arriving is what causes the possibility of change. You bring up meeting yourself at the ATP there, but that does break spacetime unless you send yourself back every loop after that. If parallel universes were in play, then what goes back wouldn't matter because you would always have the output in this other universe. It also means there would be a chance that you could fire your scout into the black hole and not get one out of the white hole due to another universe choosing not to fire at that moment. However, I'm pretty sure the re-appearing scout is always going to happen. The parallel universes you describe already exist and so would have been acting on their own, after all. The only way the parallel universes you describe could exist would be if something happened in all timelines at a non-0 time passing point, and that would deny the possibility of things changing between universes if something has to happen. (On an unrelated note, if you like those sorts of parallell universes, you might like the Zero Escape Trilogy, which goes into interactions between timelines at length once it gets going). As far as I can tell, the only time a parallel universe would form is after the ATP gets shut off, since taking the core out and escaping the sun does not cause a break in spacetime. Until the ATP was activated, things were progressing a certain way, then everything loops around in place for a while before eventually blasting off into the future again when it is deactivated. Whether that is just allowing the same timeline to continue or a new branch seems impossible to tell from our limited perspective, but you could argue that when the memories got sent back time was essentially paused in any universe getting to that point until one resolved it. That would make it a single timeline, but the one that continues isn't the same one that started. One in, one out, hundreds in the middle. Interesting to think about, in any case.
It's not really a matter of taking things at face value. I only commented because it seemed like something worth discussing further (and I do appreciate the essay response). I know it wasn't the point of the video overall, but I tend to focus on the mechanics of things and so this was the bit that stuck out to me.
I wonder about fatigue. Physically, the hatchling is well-rested at the start of every loop, but what about mentally? Are they in danger of going crazy from not being able to sleep long enough to dream properly?
@@samuelsimpson7452 Well they already had the sleep. Since each loop starts from that point of rested-ness, just with bigger infodumps into the brain, then it would be like waking up and remembering you had a dream of being really tired from running around underground. You might immediately react with confusion and tiredness, but your body would adjust quickly. For example, if you die by suffocation, the first breath on waking up is louder and more desperate, but then goes quiet as their body realises they're not actually suffocating.
@@AJ-uf4sh I imagine it would eventually, since you still get the actual mental stress and tiredness building up without the effects of the rest the Hearthian was taking as the loop began.
actually, the fact the Nomaïs built a machine capable of destroying the fabric of spacetime (thus destroying the eye? and the whole multiverse?) so easily makes me anxious. I mean they could've do it as they seem not to realise the hazard of the energy lab they created
well , theyd certainly at least interrupt the cycle. Its hard to know if itd destroy the eye , which seemingly exists outside of spacetime. Or if itd destroy the other universes either. It would all depend on how spacetime is shaped and donnected in game. But thats an excellent thought I hadnt considered. But tbh its of no fault of their own. But they were clearly willing to utilize and implement things they didnt fully grasp.
My personal headcannon on the atp matter is that there is a certain albeit incredibly small tolerance for how much matter can be sent through the atp without breaking causality. This is why the atp is able to function and send data back safely, but if we jump through it, it ends up creating a causality break
Hey Jack! Good to see you around again bud!
@@TheLoreExplorer good to be back bud
@@AJ-uf4sh dust, oxygen, other airborne particles that would have been sucked up in the attractive force of the awc
The game description tells us it is a time loop and for me it is, but a memory time loop, not a body time loop. It is a memory time travel, not body.
But time doesnt progress identically. If it were looping. If a comet hit brittles north pole during second 322. It would always do that. This isnt what we see. At least thats my understanding of legitimately looping time.
Well, we do not know if the memory transfer process is perfect or deterministic either. I'd wager not.
Hence, the scout we get from HEL is subtly different in some way than the one we throw into the black hole...
Maybe the problem becomes when it's not different *enough* - you still have some bits entangled. Then the ATP and HEL would be a giant decoherence deferral machines. With ATP, whole 22 minutes.
Hmm. What would happen if you shot a scout into ATP?
Scout gets their own version of self.
Exactly what I've been saying
We're playing as the memory of the hearthian not the hearthian himself
Evidence is if we go far away from the solar system we don't die by the explosion but the screen fades away and we get sent back in time
The better question then is whether we actually die or just the next iteration thinks we died. Maybe in some alternate universe a Hatchling died of starvation, but we never get to see that.
What really bakes my noodle lately is what would happen if somehow you could move Solanum (say by means of building a pad) and copy her. She seems to exist in entanglement with a version of a quantum moon.
I liked the clip of the solar system map played in reverse via the mask animation. I appreciate your dedication to all the cool sights (and glitches).
I actually just recorded the map and reversed it. But thanks so much! It was definitely something like “yeah. This would work. But a full reverse image would be cooler”. So it’s nice to see it was appreciated!
Technically if you can't theoretically differentiate 2 theories, then they are identical with just different terminologies.
The concept of another timeline can't be proven nor disproven (at least with the assumptions in the video), so a philosophical tool to apply would probably be the Occam's razor.
But it is kinda interesting how the exact same model can give you 2 completely different moral implications if you explain it in using different terms.
And I think the scout is kinda out of the question here: it's the "same". The question was formulated more in terms of "are memories the same thing as "me"?", as far as I understand.
Technically the term "same" is kinda misleading itself: you can't differentiate any 2 fundamental particles in any way, yet we mostly assume that 2 particles in different locations are "different" and that simply existing throughout time is possible and the particle remains "the same", doesn't get replaced by a "different" particle. I *think* it is again a result of Occum's razor, the word "same" only means as much as what we want it to mean. It is just kinda easier to describe a continuous change as just one "object".
It's also unclear how many Nomai logs are simply lost or how many conversations were never written down, so we don't actually know what they may have known or not known.
The ultimate conclusion that Nomai aren't some sort of perfect society is right imho, the kids even question their obsession with the Eye and unwillingness to just reunite with another clan first. That probably should have been the first thing to do once you arrive in a new solar system, regardless of it's mysteries.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
thank you on this, you said a lotta the points that were eating at me during the video in way more legible terms than i could’ve
One scenario being simpler than the other depends on the structure of the universe though. Ive always found it odd one nomai says "laws about this universe". Ive always gave the benefit of the doubt. And figure its a translation thing. But if there already are multiple universes. I think sending memories to a new timeline is the simpler thing. But if there is only one univers. Sending memories back in time and somehow that rewriting the future seems simpler. The point is we dont know which is happening. And while maybe some smart Nomai could have devised a test they havent. So why shoud we just accept their findings. They saw something amazing and we are seeing their first reactions. Some other logs may be broken or destroyed where they did these tests. But at no point do they demonstrate that knowledge imo.
@@TheLoreExplorer I think "this universe" doesn't imply the existence of others. I say it all the time when refesring to this universe, or I say "our universe," even tho I don't believe there are other universes
Yeah. Ive always given it that benifit of the doubt too. But we know almost for a fact that the outer wilds universe is actually a multilverse. At least in some sense There was one before ours. And one after ours. We are one universe is
string of multiverses. And the eye exists outside of time. So very likely in all three of those universes at the same time(in reference to the eye) Its not so far fetched to say there are multiple versions of our own universe as well. If the universal cycle repeated infinitely there would be an infinite number of our identical universe as well. In fact we have a real world hypothesis about it called the many worlds hypothesis.
I feel like you often put words into my mouth. I never claimed to prove anything. None of this is proof. Im just stating its something we dont know. With an object like the eye that exists outside of time. And 3 known universe to have existed. it seems like from perspectives of the eye , which exists outside of time, it possible there is a multitude of universe. While each individual universe would stay as such from its own viewpoint. The eye seems to be a connections between them all. So its possible they are all connected and connected through time via the eye. Hence a multiverse.
I think the reason that most folks take what they read at face value is that like, what other option do we have? Healthy speculation and doubting is good when theorizing, but I don't think it hurts to lean on what we're given. Good video though :) I think it's a good reminder
We have the game itself. Ive , at least personally, have found answers to most of these questions by connecting in game phenomenon and using the rules we see rather than the rules we read. I understand thats not for everyone. And I always acknowledge there is nothing wrong with not doing it. Its just after taking the game at face value. Then scrutinizing that take. Ive found believing in what we see as a whole is better than judging things as they come. I just had someone tell me they never realized the time loop didnt start with us. Cause it looks like it does. Idk. Just think its flawed. Its personally led me to less plot holes or questions. But im sure for most my take adds 1000 questions. So people tend to dismiss it. And its not easy to do. Its just frustrating when people do this and then claim the games bad because plot holes.
I guess you could say the same thing with who's interpretation you would take with the Eye of the Universe as there are quite a few interpretations in the game. You have the Nomai who (if I remember correctly) see nothing wrong with the Eye and devote their whole life towards learning about it. Then you have the Owlks who also devoted themselves to learning about the Eye, however they also had a vision which I'd assume had different interpretations, as the majority believed that the Eye will kill everything if you interact with it or you had someone like the Prisoner who I'd assume wasn't scared of the Eye and wanted to learn more about it, a bit like the Nomai.
This could therefore show that you shouldn't really know who to trust. I feel like most people trust the Nomai + Prisoner, because that's all that they had been taught, however, the majority of the Owlks could be correct as to say that the Eye is something evil but only issue being is that we only really have a handful of reels that explain their point of view.
I feel that your video brought up a very good point, and I'm glad in some ways, as it provides more for me to think about the game and make more interpretations.
What I find interesting is the vision the owls had was just that, a vision. We as the hatchling actually went into the eye, entangled with it, and witnessed the creation of a new universe. We know that the eye isn't evil because we saw the outcome. The owlks don't see what happens after a conscious observer interacts with the eye. They might have only seen the supernova, or the insinuation of a supernova, that ended the universe.
@@Stinkuh69 I feel that it's difficult to be certain whether or not the Owlks had more than just a vision, because a lot of information had been removed by the Owlks themselves, and we pretty much have the remainder of the information to go by.
But I feel like the creation of the new universe is such a strange thing to think about in itself, as it also has its own interpretations, from us and the Hatchling. From the Hatchling's perspective, the new universe "changes" based on whether the Hatchling saw Solanum or the Prisoner and if the Hatchling loses their scout in the Eye.
I feel that in the end, what you said is the most likely theory in my eyes anyway, but it's difficult for me to say it's definite because of my previous 2 points in this reply, and hence it's somewhat fun creating theories/disproving/adding uncertainty some of them.
I believe the negative time interval has to be sending the ACTUAL object back in time because we go through black holes regularly and it always works exactly as expected with everything exactly the same, we’re teleported as the same person with the same memories with everything around us the exact same, if we ended up in a different universe you could easily argue we’d be disconnected from the ash twin project all together
That may all be true. But just take a look at the self ending. They do get disconnected from the statue. They naturally remember the last loop while we get the memories sent via statue. They also wake up in a universe that ISNT "exactly the same" .(They start the loop in the atp with a version of us elsewhere. Two us's. Not exactly the same. Also the quantum fluctuations). And the negative time interval is still possible without anything entering a black hole. So I dont see how "the actual object" can leave a white hole without ever having entered a black one. You can say "well thats why the spacetime ending happens". But if that were the case then itd happen in the 0.00001 seconds in which that always happens. Because that literally always happens when an object enters a black hole. So I just dont understand how people reconcile all of this with what the game tells vs shows us.
If you think self(a literal example of what we are talking about) is irrelevant that actually explains a lot to me about your comments. Thats literally the only time someone would even be able to disconnect from a statue(and they actually do) via blackhole. The hearthian who wakes up at the campfire is the hearthian already connected to the statue in that timeline(or universe). And when using a normal black hole youd be sent to an identical parallel universe. That timelines statue would just keep recording as if nothing happened. The statues can pick us up when we switch forms or consciousnesses without missing a blink. The simulation shows this to us. So this wouldnt even be odd.
Plus literally everytime we use a black hole there is a "dupe" of us in the same universe for .00001 seconds. Using your own logic one of them MUST be disconnected from the statue.(cause the statue cant connect to two) So even then answering the ops question with your own logic is still "well, one does get disconnected from their statue".
Also....cyclones and the meteors arent quantum. Or micro. No micro quantum fluctuation could create entire cyclones or meteors. A micro fluctuation is a single particle or atom. And these things dont even act quantum.
I think superposition is in play with time travel, I think all timelines are simultaneously true. Each time the player dies, it would effectively be blinking your observation of this timeline black, then opening your eyes again in a separate timeline. We perceive each strand of time as independent, but really they all participate in the rope of time.
So it’s simultaneously true time travel and timeline jumping imo
The sun did react to the sun station, but it was basically nothing that happened
Certainly, the Nomai weren't perfect. They got so caught up in doing amazing science things that they didn't stop to ask questions like: "Is there a safer and more practical way to get what we want?"
They also seemed to have an extreme aversion to conflict and violence, to the point where such solutions never even occurred to them. No one said "Hey, those guys are going to blow up the sun! We should stop them by any means necessary, even if we have to use force." It also would have been simple for them to build weapons and kill all the anglerfish so they could have free access to the Vessel, but apparently they only built things that exploded by accident. :)
A few Nomai did confront the others. Tried to convince them its irresponsible. But the others thought the risk was worth it. One Nomai even put a mural in the sun station with a scale. On one side the the symbol for the eye. On the other the symbol for the sun. This was to remind everyone the suns(and its system) safety was just as important as finding the eye. The rest of the nomai agreed with that sentiment to a certain extent. But they were confident in their plan and thought the risk was more than worth it. As for violence. Yeah. The nomai probably "evolved" past that. Also they did stop to think what could power such a thing. Since the energy needed was exponential they couldn't power it conventionally. And so they had to try to use the sun. I also think they were sort of blinded bt their mission. I doubt many of them even heard or read it. But a nomai child even thought they were being silly and should instead focus on making their own vessel. All theyd need to recreate is a coordinate input system. And given the advanced nature of the space crafts they have made(sun station , orbital probe cannon) Id say itd probably be easy for them. They wouldnt even have needed to go to the vessel or bramble. But the eye just superseded most rational thought imo
I actually side with Cassava’s view. As a consequentialist, it doesn’t matter if there’s a difference in a parallel universe or the same timeline, we can only perceive the instance we are in, and can only effect change in this instance. The means are Very important to the ends, but it is only the ends which we see having an effect.
I agree for the most part. I tell people about simulation theory much the same. Pointless to differentiate. But in this case. I think communication between all these timelines are possible. Specifically through the atp. So we could perceive and even effect these parallel timelines.
@@TheLoreExplorer I hadn’t considered the potential of the ATP to be used like that, you and Poke would have a lot to talk about
In the video I mention the conversation was a philosophical one. Just as Daz did I gave examples. His examples. Then said I agree with daz in the sense that we dont know whats going on. And showed how daz example wouldnt be the same thing in regards to everything. Just the same in regards to memories and us. But daz gave these mutilple mechanical examples. Which to me, is pointing to the fact the nomai dont know which one of these hypotheticals are true. As far as memories and ourself goes theyd be the same. Both instances would accomplish that. But the mechanisms are different. And those possible differences prove the nomai havent mastered everything about them yet. They dont entirely know what they are talking about as this is the first time they are experiencing it. And in the terms of the memory statues they literally never experienced it. So why should we trust them? Thats the entirety of the video. Not proving one thing one way or the other. I just wanted to have an open conversation about why we should trust the nomai logs, us , gabbro, and self. Or not. Sorry if that wasnt elaborated furthur. Thought the intro made it clear thats what this was about Anway, If youd like to carry on that conversation id be happy to. But i was never trying to prove the multiverse vs universe theory in this vid
You can skip over my points all you want bud. Its not worth going in circles. Maybe you should go back and watch the video where i say they were talking "philosophically" and give what can only be hypothetical examples straight from daz. Also Casavva says the same thing twice. Thats why i said he may be teasing his husband. Sort of dismissing him. Anyway in the video i say Yes. technically both scenarios would be sending you back in time.". The point with the whole video...is thats not all that matters here. We are talking about reading everything the nomai said as gospel. Reading a philosophical conversation and taking it as fact is the definition of unreliable information.
How does people take what the Nomai say as 100% facts? I think the game does a pretty good job on showing us that the Nomai are imperfect like us. They have doubts, although they are very smart, they are still learning, they make mistakes, etc.
And I think the title of this video leads us to think that they are trying to deceive us. They aren't. We just have to take what they say with a grain of salt.
Of course the title in "incendiary". But its applicable and I address that very early on to make sure people dont get the impression thats what the vidoes about. But I have hundreds of videos focusing on outer wilds. Explainer videos. Theories. Sort of video essays. And the most pushback to them I get is in the form of "Well, the nomai say this and so youre wrong". A ton of people believe just it all. They think the nomai logs are the devs speaking to them or something. And all my point was was your first paragraph. The game shows us this isnt true. And so people shouldnt blindly accept what they say. You sort of have to remember not all of these videos are for people who beat the game 100% and fully understand it to the extent that you can. I did a video recently as simple to focusing on the fact that "The first time we wake up isnt the beginning of the time loop". And a ton of people were mind blown by that. So I thinks it helpful to explain why the nomai shouldnt just be taken as arbiters of truth.
At about 6:00 in the video, you talk about sending memories vs sending bodies. If you go the the core of the ash towing and go into the black hole in the looping section; you will later find yourself there at the next loop. This proves that there will be two versions of you. This also proves that it is different then sending memories.
Well. No. It was never memories back Body. It was their essence as a person. But self does prove sending someone and sending memories are different. The argument is if you send the memories. It’s the same as sending your essence back.
they are still people afeter all
I think people want to believe the Nomai at face value because they embody so much of what we wish humanity would be: curious and cooperative even when not in agreement. I'm sorry to hear people have been mean though. That's the opposite of that ideal!
Oh. Yeah. Thanks. It is the internet so I dont know what Im expecting. But even reading all these comments will show rude people. I try to encourage people to be open minded. Listen. Anf if they dont agree at the end then we move on. But that isnt good enough for some. I just need to get past being affected by comments. But its hard when you try to read and interact with as many as possible.
At 7:38 area could you say that the answer is quantum? Both things existing at once.
I trust the Nomai as engineers and scientists since their results speak for themselves. Like you say, there's nothing falsifiable about something to distinguish between things like the selfsame probe or a duplicate from another timeline. But as you know science is only concerned with the testing of falsifiable statements, so for them to not pursue a discussion further than what amounts to a quick chatroom discussion about what it means to have your memories transferred, I personally don't think that makes them untrustworthy as scientists or engineers.
That said, for much of the game the only ones we see chatting to each other are the scientists and engineers, and those messages are basically what amount to social media posts. And we all know how silly it can be to try and trust someone only based on their social media posting :p
But the results you see may not be the whole story. I understand it’s pointless to differentiate if you can’t distinguish or test. Like we might as well be in the simulation theory. Doesn’t matter. Can’t distinguish one way or the other. But In this case I think they could. Here’s a simple fact. A scout exits a white hole even if one never enters the black hole. Sure. That causes the space time ending and something the nomai never saw. But it seems they never even thought about it. My first thought was how can we even try to justly claim something entering the black hole causes the exit. It happens even if it never enters. The excuse is, well that’s why spacetime ends. Something that shouldn’t happened did. But if that were the case it should happen instantaneously as it exits before it entered. Cause the exact same thing happens. Something happened without the cause entering the black hole. The fact is if you broke causality. It’s silly to later claim causality is an issue. It wasn’t when you broke it. Why should it be now?
I listened to it before. They do mention a causal loop. But then went on to address it further. Alex also mentions in the background "though I dont think thats how they work". But lets ignore that since its not too clear what hes referring to there. They go on to add that the ending was added because the nomai wouldve just been able to duplicate objects and get infinite anything. Who needs the sun station when we have a battery we can dupe? And so they added an ending to prevent that glitch in the physics. So its not like they were worried about causal loops before that. It was an afterthought after the games main premise was well underway.
Youd also have to change the meaning of the phrase so much that its essentially just a new thing. If the cause happens first sometimes. Then its "Cause and effect or effect and cause. Either way really." And this is outer wilds. So that is possible. Im not writing it off. Ive seen someone call it a promise to the universe which must be fulfilled. Which I liked ver much because it seemed romantic to me. But speaking honestly and to my best knowledge. I dont think thats how causal loops work. I think in a causal loop the first effect has to cause the thing that causes it in the first place. So the scout exiting the white hole would have to somehow cause it to enter the black hole. Which it doesnt. So they may have gotten some phrases mixed up. Or maybe I have. But one thing I know for sure. A scout exits a white hole even if it doesnt enter a black hole. It seems impossible to me that there is a cause and effect relationship there. But I could be wrong. Thanks for sharing that podcast with me though. Hadn't heard it in a while and itll be great background sound for elden ring.
Time travel, branching timelines, multiverse.
I think that the negative time interval is because the object is from the future, because if we remove the black hole core ,the object from the past comes from the white hole. Then how did it leave the black hole? And that's what breaks the space-time continuum.
Maybe reiterate this because I cant understand it. You call the object both from the future and past. But think about this. We shoot our scout towards the black hole and then turn off the power. A scout still comes out of the white hole. How could you possibly claim the exiting was caused by the entrance. The entrance never happened. And if you think something happening without the cause happening is why the spacetime ending happens, then it should happen instantly. Not when the object doesnt enter the black hole.
Hey Lore! Love your videos, recently finished outer wilds and proceeded to binge watch your videos. Just have a quick question about the 14.3 billion years post credit scene. Sometimes it seems to be a normal spherical planet, but occasionally it's almost ring like? Like the surface seems to circle around the frame? Idk if I'm explaining this correctly, but do you know what causes it? Thank you for your time!
I suppose I havent tested that yet exactly. But before the dlc the planet was looked like a sphere. But after the dlc came out. It changed to a flat surface that seems to just fall off. Im not sure if that is reliant on having been to the stranger. Thats what I havent tested yet. But thats why its different. Pre and post dlc! Glad youre enjoying the content and feel free to ask away!
That was a pre dlc update literally 3 days before the dlc came out. Only for consoles. It was an update for the dlc man. If youre not reasonable enough to accept that as an answer as to what caused the change idk what to tell you. Ive tried to be kind to you but im beginning to think youre a troll
@@TheLoreExplorer oh okay thanks! Yeah this other person is being a bit annoying, unsure if you think I'm them lol! Just watched your latest video and loved it!
@@arthurholtham3636 No. I know youre not AJ. AJ seems to do this a lot. Sorry about that. Glad youre enjoying the channel bud. Hope to see you around
I think you completely missed the point of the debate of sending one's memory back in time. This wasn't scientific questioning, but a philosophical one. It's a nod to the Ship of Theseus.
incredible video. thank you!
Great video... And do you think mobius games will make anything Outer wilds related in future ?
Yes references Dark Bramble
You’re great to listen to. Keep up the great work!
Awesome video! I like your theories! Do you think you’d be a owlk, a nomai, or a hearthian?
What if the ending is actually the 9 million+ quantum states of the universe we have observed collapsing into the one true timeline when the eye is observed?
I mean, it's not, it's the end of the universe and the start of the next, but it's a valid interpretation.
I think its more than 9 million+. But frankly this is what I believe. The eye is a quantum black hole. And every loop is simply one quantum possibility of the universe. Once observed , the one we reach the eye in becomes certain. And sends things back 14.3 billion years. The reason we see the quantum phenom is because so close to the eye this phenomenon gets more intense. But its just cause the eye is outside of time. Or in other words. It exists in all of these 9 million universes simultaneously. In other words the eye simply "gets confused" and the realities bleed into each other. This would also explain a few basic loop holes the in the game explanations(really the in game characters) seem to leave out. Like why the scout at the hel happens before we shoot our scout. But self doesnt happen until after we cause self. Itd also get past any casual issues as no loops get reverted. All the causes still happen and so on. We just switch to another universe each loop with our memories. And eventually this would lead us to the universe in which we found the eye. Its just a theory. Like you said one valid interpretation. But imo , its the one thats right.
Perhaps just call the video "You shouldn't trust the Nomai with everything"
The way I look at it you kinda have to. They are all dead and have been for thousands of years and we are very lucky to get what we can take.
Is it ever stated anywhere in the game that the ATP specifically sends things 22 minutes back in time or is that just us meta gaming?
thats the theoretical time it would take a probe to traverse the distance of the galaxy.
I fucking LOVE unreliable narrators. It’s why elder scrolls has some of my favorite lore
Love your videos, you should be proud of them
Wait, what’s the anomaly Hornfels refers to? Because I don’t remember them mentioning anything about an anomaly. Also funny Giant’s Deep joke about the Nomai there having a “deep” conversation
Thanks. Thought that might go by people. It’s in the dlc. There is an anomaly on a satellite and horn fells makes gabbro check it out.
@@TheLoreExplorer Oh ok thanks. And no problemo noticing the joke
Basically, don't take anything anyone says as gospel.
Okay so like this game also has examples of quantum mechanics and when you said it cant be true you are and arnt sending yourself back in time. I mean wave particle duality in quantum mechanics, Elitzur-Vaidman bomb tester example, and schrodinger's cat are just a few examples and laws that are true in our own universe where on the smallest scales things dont quiet behave in true and falses. Since noone has observed what's happening when said events of memory transfer happens the mechanics are unknown of what it does. Wether its rewinding the universe creating a new one or destroying the old one to send information backward. Or a mix of all 3 since black holes lie at the edge of both classical and quantum mechanics. Who knows what its actually doing may be completely beyond word or understanding for us.
I trust the Nomai.
Engagement
It impresses me that you still find things to investigate and discuss in Outer Wilds. I wonder when you’ll run out of things to make videos about 🤔
Jokes on you I never did trust the nomai. I can't see their faces.
I previously thought about doing a cast with a philosopher about this game- but then I realized you most likely have much more. Any interest in speaking with a PhD in philosophy about the implications of the game?
Granted he hasn't played it much- it may be an idea for you two to play it together and have a sort of professional explanation going on followed by a summary. Otherwise I'll force him to stream the game and make him talk about it alone, really
I would very much enjoy the opportunity to do something like that! I like to think of myself as a philosophical person. But im not so sure Id be able to add that much to the conversation. I could definitely play and prompt him with concepts from the game and get their thoughts. Or maybe just discuss things in general. But imo that would be awesome and amazing. If youd think they would be interested in that then you could give him my email and tell him to email me. So we could talk about what a video like that would look like. And so on. He should be able to use this video to gauge me and see if id be a good partner for a video about philosophy! studio.ua-cam.com/users/videoV5HdXwGOlWg/edit
Thanks so much for reaching out!
Do you think humans exist in the Outer Wilds universe?
That'd be an interesting question for the devs lol 😂
Probably, but they wouldn’t have any bearing on the events of the story since even if they did, they would be way too far away to make contact prior to the supernova
@@basementdustproductions1069 We'd probably have made our selves extingt too
Very cool
Lewdwig hits the nail on the head. The Nomai was intelligent and well intentioned, but childish as hell.
Not that they cannot have mature concepts, but that their sense of thinking is that of a child. Follow on and orders of magnitude later just don't occur to them.
They strip mine, essentially, an entire solar system in an effort to locate a signal that, while exciting, was short lived.
They assumed, that sending things through the event horizons was time travel, and not multidimensional theory.
They played with quantum mechanics and seemed to never consider that being trapped on the Moon could end up being something like a living hell.
@@AJ-uf4sh that's okay brother :-) we can have different opinions.
And you're correct. "Strip mining" was certainly not the best possible term to use.
Instead, I will say that after the Vessel disaster, the Nomai focused the efforts of their colonization of the Outer Wilds system on continuing to hunt down the Eye.
I understand not giving up because the horse bucked you, even savagely. But Eskalls tribe was... foolishly single minded on the topic. As though pursuit of the signal was the only practical purpose for them. Not recovering/rebuilding/repairing the Vessel.
Just this signal.
@@AJ-uf4sh you got me there. They weren't about to throw bodies into the Bramble.
I think, given that the Hatchling figured it out, and the presence of an active Nomai beacon in there, the Nomai would have cottened on. But that's part of my point. They didn't try, because to them the Signal was overriding.
As far as building a new Vessel... your theories aren't unfounded. I look at the Sun Station (which is a colossal craft) and I wonder if they could have built another one, or not.
The Nomai wasted their time not developing a method to leave the solar system and go back to the other clans.
@@AJ-uf4sh I mean I don't get why you say they wouldn't be able to replicate the old technology because they did with the black hole forge remember. They created a warp core that they used to send information 22 minutes into the past with the ATP. They already had artificial gravity and considering the Heartheans used it to I don't think it's far fetched that they'd be able to make a smaller version of the vessel which could only be made easier by finding the vessel themselves which is something they could of focused on but didn't. They pretty much already had the tech because they could always use the technology from the pods to which would also help. Idk if I were one of the Nomai who survived the crash I'd be trying to convince people we could leave. I mean once the Nomai returned to the other clans they could always just go back to the Outer Wilds system in search for they eye.
@@AJ-uf4sh I guess you're right but I still don't see why they wouldn't be able to reverse engineer the tech from the pods. Unless the main vessel has other tech not related to the pods which really wouldn't make sense because all the tech we see on the vessel is shown in the Nomai ruins on the planets to. The glowy ball thing, the warp core, artificial gravity and that's all there is on the vessel in game if I'm not mistaken.
Thing is, Nomai could have gone to the vessel and received some coordinates of another clan at any point in time then warped there with the ATP core, but they had trouble actually getting their ships into Dark Bramble apparently.
Some technology must have been lost. Note that nomai kids and most adult Nomai didn't even have the spacesuits and the communication walls are somewhat few. These must have been treated like heirlooms or sacred objects.
Without the coordinates, it'd take forever to find another clan. (Just see how many tries it took to find one dark object orbiting somewhere in one solar system.)
new video! woohoo!
hi classic
@@ink_33 hello ink
You got almost everything here wrong. A shame, I usually like your Outer Wilds content.
I knew while writing this people wouldn’t like it. But it’s how I feel. No one should take reactionary words as fact. And the game is designed so we “discover this stuff alongside the nomai”. So those are the words said when they first experienced these phenom. Same goes for us self and gabbro. First time we are experiencing something. Literally no reason we should just take this as fact. Maybe the points I used to show that were bad. But that sentiment is just common practice.
Also like to note a big thing I said. This may be a stupid video. They may be right. I just wanted to start a conversation about unreliable narrators and how the nomai sort of fit that image. I should’ve done it in a different way.
This doesn't mean anything without pointing out what exactly is wrong and why.