man, that white 360 setup. taking a real chance on the Red Ring O Death there. but as another every day 360 user, i value seeing that classic. with that out of the day, as an owner of both an MTH modern unit (a chessie SD40-2 i purchased new last year), and a williams mid 2000's unit (a ATSF GP9 that someone had started repainting but never finished(no decals), i much prefer the MTH sound and control, but the williams unit can hold its own against many of my other power, including a postwar Lionel 681 turbine. i do not like buying modern locos because of the high price tag with them, but dang they are butter. i will deff get another of either brand given the chance.
Get you a pair of 5906 Sound Activation buttons, then not only can you toot the horn and ring the bell, with MTH engines you can also use different button sequences to activate all the features, even program the loco. Even in conventional, MTH gives you full control.
Bruh these model train prices are crazy, I’m looking at a lego Santa Fe engine and they go for 250-300 bucks and I think that price is insane! But for model railroading that’s the low end on price!
It gets worse when you get into fully custom model territory. The prices to buy parts from places like Bricklink add up quickly, and I mean really quickly.
I remember getting this MTH NS DAP F-7s from the train show, I didn't know it but the colors on the train were great and the pricing was not bad. However I would get it for $700, however, they talked to me asking if I worked at a job, I said yes and they sweet-talk me, out of generosity, to bring it down to $650. I bought it and never regretted my purchases. Even better, it was brand new, with no mileage nor any hours on the engine, strictly brand new out of the box. For me I see this MTH purchase as the best purchase I made from my local train show.
I just found your channel. I really enjoyed your comparison between Willams & MTH. Your review was spot on the money. I just subbed, thanks for sharring. 👍
Personally I think a more reasonable price for the GP9 is probably around $300 - $350ish. $600 is pretty steep even considering all the fancy electronics and finer details. At least to me, the MTH model just seems like an upgraded the Williams with modernized features, and I just don't think $600 is a justified price. If it had some other fancy features it doesn't have that would up the price more, then I can probably understand $600, but I don't know. I don't see the benefit of blowing your finances on something you can buy that's both a little older and with a slightly lower detail quality, but still having an almost equal performance level.
It's also a low production model since it came out after Mike's semi-retirement which has something to do with it. It's also a much higher quality model
That's because he doesn't have a dcs system that can actually access all of the features in an MTH PS3 locomotive. Announcements, doppler effect, remote couplers, etc.
I’m working on getting a new one, but I have never heard of a postwar transformer breaking a modern locomotive in any case except for a derailment and short
@@cobramercilessFrom what I heard, Lionel CW80s aren’t the best to operate post war trains. It won’t make them explode, but they apparently perform subpar with postwar locomotives. I have an mth z1000, and the circuit breaker works well when a train derails.
@@JerryTheTankYank1776 I concur. I run my Post-Wars and moderns (Lionel, MTH, Williams) with MTH Z-1000 transformers and the engines love 'em. No problems with shorts frying boards, the MTH cicuit breakers work perfectly.
@@cobramerciless The issue with the postwar transformers and modern electronics is that the older transformers have slow-acting circuit breakers in the event of a dead short such as you might experience in a derailment, and no spike suppression as you might experience when a truck derails at speed and bounces across the ties, throwing sparks before making contact long enough to trip the breaker. In the latter case, the rapid connection/disconnection of loads generates voltage spikes that can exceed 100 volts (this was proven with an oscilloscope). Even without a derailment, intermittent interruptions in current flow due to dirt on the wheels/rails/pickup rollers can also generate spikes, and over time these can degrade the integrity of random parts in the circuit boards. Inserting a device known as a "transient voltage suppressor" or TVS between transformer and track can provide a level of protection from spikes, and a fast-acting breaker would be additional insurance until a modern transformer can be sourced.
Most folks aren't interested in the extra features anyway. One thing I dislike about MTH is when the pcb fails it can cost at least a quarter of the cost of the unit to have repaired.
I think the GP-30 is a Williams-by Bachmann -era model. Williams' GP-7, SD-45 and Dash-8 diesels are more representative of the detail level expected of most of the brand's existence (basically anything with stamped-metal handrails). Also MTH RailKing might be a better comparison detail and price-wise to the WbB-era locomotives (which include some former K-Line models) The price points of some equipment in this scale are no joke. I'm looking at the Siemens Chargers announced by 3rd Rail. I'd like to get two in Amtrak colors, since that's going to be the future once the Genesis locos start retiring. Then I saw drone footage of the first two Metro-North units at the Siemens factory earlier today. Three locos at $800 each, even though delivery is scheduled to be sometime in 2025, is...whoooooooff (and I say this having bought five Viewliners from them at $300 a pop). But there aren't enough people doing O gauge (2 _and_ 3-rail combined) to sell enough equipment to drive price points down since you never really get to "mass production" numbers. And even HO scale -- the most popular one -- is seeing prices rivaling where 'O' was not too long ago.
My general limit on O scale loco purchases is the $300-$400 range. Before I would exceed that, I would probably just get a nice Williams or K-Line model (and maybe have sound upgraded).
If you wire the motors in series, the Williams diesels become much more 'normal' when starting and at speed. It is easy to do. There are UA-cam videos that describe this easy upgrade. (Joey's Trains) You can also upgrade to Soundblast Plus for a reasonable cost yielding a much better sound system
When you are running on 3 rails (as I do), too much detail is JUST OVERKILL!!! #1) ALL those separately attached extremely detailed accents are just tidbits (almost impossibly discernable when the unit is doing what it meant to do - being in motion) impatiently asking to be broken! #2) 3 Rail O Scale (opposed to 2 Rail O, HO or N modelling) plays heavily (& quite effectively) on the appeals of childhood nostalgia & a fair amount of retro quasi-kitchiness! The specific reason the next chronological trend of model railroading after the peak of 3 Rail (HO) jumped down in size (rather than moving up from O) was: That modellers who desired an emphasis on the "prototypical," would need smaller models to replicate prototypical operations with their highly prototypical trains! I own TWO MTH locomotive "sets," in addition to all my Lionel stuff: A.) CGW F-3 ABA lash-up B.) CGW 4-6-2 steamer I'm SO happy that MTH essentially 'built upon' the somewhat simplistic design of the Lionel post war F-3! They added a second headlight, but they kept those distinctly Lionel prototypical liberties!
A good way to put it, when you buy MTH, you’re not buying a model… you’re buying a computer. Everything comes with Protosound 3.0, while Williams markets conventional with horn/true blast. Once you get a transformer with a whistle and bell (or bell control box), you’ll be able to trigger the couplers, use the PFA sequence and properly control the firmware. It does take timing practice, but it opens up why they cost a bit more. Edit; A little gear grease will quiet the obvious sound. MTH for years now apparently forgets so pre-grease their models. (I’m victim of this too)
Really enjoyed the comparison between these two models I believe that Williams is a Excellent product for the price Being familiar with all you can do with the Mike’s system. I disagree with your findings.
Williams versus MTH? Well that's like the difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac. Both will get you where you want to go, how do you want to get there? I own both MTH and Williams engines and like them both, however I bought the MTH products when I wanted a greater degree of authenticity in certain steam models. BUT, it's hard to beat the sheer value of the Williams products. As a conventional runner I've got features in those MTH engines I'll never use and I realize a lot of what I spent was spent on the electronics. So, if you're a conventional runner it's hard to beat the sheer value of the Williams product line. Even though they're not made anymore there's still a goodly amount to be found at train shows and on-line dealers with New Old Stock. And since there's little to no collector interest in Williams the prices are typically VERY reasonable. The only negative thing I can say about Williams dual-motor diesels is they tend to take off like rockets when the power's applied. Easy fix, wire the motors in series and it tames them right down.
I habe been looking for a good o scale diesel to buy have thought about early 2000s Lionel but have looked into Williams, people are going at bachmann to restore Williams and bring them back,
@@chasesrailwaylinesrr6447 Weaver has been around since the 1960's, birthed as Quality Craft Models, producing mostly kits. The Weaver brand came later as they transitioned to ready-to-run models, and diesel locomotives with details and drivetrains similar to Williams followed. These were all conventional, some were equipped with QSI sound at extra cost. They also made brass steam engines (but those aren't entry-level products)
Interesting I will have to look up about them I know brass steam engines can be expensive But I did formally have my hands on a brass O. scale steam engine no tender Which may have been a weaver product
Yes, MTH is still alive and well. They reorganized into a smaller company, and moved to a smaller location. They do not produce starter sets anymore, and sold off a lot of tooling they didn't want.
Traction tires are just the norm here. Doesn’t matter the scale. Doesn’t make it a poor model, since replacing them is just part of regular maintenance. My 00 models pull like crap, I wish they had tires
OO gauge is a way different gauge than O, I'll also guarantee you won't get the features of the MTH model from anything in Britain especially Hornby because it's Hornby. I can also say that the MTH model doesn't need the traction tires, MTH just kinda does that for maximum pulling. Simply put don't knock it till you try it
Personally, if traction tires wear out on my engines and the engines don't miss them I leave them off. Unless you're running super-long consists the weight of an O Gauge engine's usually more than adequate to get the job done.
man, that white 360 setup. taking a real chance on the Red Ring O Death there. but as another every day 360 user, i value seeing that classic.
with that out of the day, as an owner of both an MTH modern unit (a chessie SD40-2 i purchased new last year), and a williams mid 2000's unit (a ATSF GP9 that someone had started repainting but never finished(no decals), i much prefer the MTH sound and control, but the williams unit can hold its own against many of my other power, including a postwar Lionel 681 turbine. i do not like buying modern locos because of the high price tag with them, but dang they are butter. i will deff get another of either brand given the chance.
Okay so funny thing about that Xbox… It’s the disc drive that’s messed up. Original 2006 one, never red ringed. No idea why it’s still with us
@@cobramerciless interesting. never had one where the disk drive failed. now, ive exploded a CD in the disck drive, but it still works fine.
@11111111111111111111111 111111111 111111111111111111111111111111111111111 111111111111 11!11 §§§§§ §§§ ± §§§ §§§§§§§ ±§§ §§😊
Get you a pair of 5906 Sound Activation buttons, then not only can you toot the horn and ring the bell, with MTH engines you can also use different button sequences to activate all the features, even program the loco.
Even in conventional, MTH gives you full control.
Bruh these model train prices are crazy, I’m looking at a lego Santa Fe engine and they go for 250-300 bucks and I think that price is insane! But for model railroading that’s the low end on price!
That price is already nutty for me. I see post war Santa Fe F3s often being sold at 200 or less for engines
It gets worse when you get into fully custom model territory. The prices to buy parts from places like Bricklink add up quickly, and I mean really quickly.
Dude that lego
I remember getting this MTH NS DAP F-7s from the train show, I didn't know it but the colors on the train were great and the pricing was not bad. However I would get it for $700, however, they talked to me asking if I worked at a job, I said yes and they sweet-talk me, out of generosity, to bring it down to $650. I bought it and never regretted my purchases. Even better, it was brand new, with no mileage nor any hours on the engine, strictly brand new out of the box.
For me I see this MTH purchase as the best purchase I made from my local train show.
I just found your channel. I really enjoyed your comparison between Willams & MTH. Your review was spot on the money. I just subbed, thanks for sharring. 👍
Personally I think a more reasonable price for the GP9 is probably around $300 - $350ish. $600 is pretty steep even considering all the fancy electronics and finer details. At least to me, the MTH model just seems like an upgraded the Williams with modernized features, and I just don't think $600 is a justified price. If it had some other fancy features it doesn't have that would up the price more, then I can probably understand $600, but I don't know. I don't see the benefit of blowing your finances on something you can buy that's both a little older and with a slightly lower detail quality, but still having an almost equal performance level.
It's also a low production model since it came out after Mike's semi-retirement which has something to do with it.
It's also a much higher quality model
That's because he doesn't have a dcs system that can actually access all of the features in an MTH PS3 locomotive. Announcements, doppler effect, remote couplers, etc.
You may want to use a more modern transformer, as the older postwar transformers can fry the electronics of modern locomotives and sound cars.
I’m working on getting a new one, but I have never heard of a postwar transformer breaking a modern locomotive in any case except for a derailment and short
@@cobramercilessFrom what I heard, Lionel CW80s aren’t the best to operate post war trains. It won’t make them explode, but they apparently perform subpar with postwar locomotives.
I have an mth z1000, and the circuit breaker works well when a train derails.
@@JerryTheTankYank1776 I concur. I run my Post-Wars and moderns (Lionel, MTH, Williams) with MTH Z-1000 transformers and the engines love 'em. No problems with shorts frying boards, the MTH cicuit breakers work perfectly.
@@cobramerciless The issue with the postwar transformers and modern electronics is that the older transformers have slow-acting circuit breakers in the event of a dead short such as you might experience in a derailment, and no spike suppression as you might experience when a truck derails at speed and bounces across the ties, throwing sparks before making contact long enough to trip the breaker.
In the latter case, the rapid connection/disconnection of loads generates voltage spikes that can exceed 100 volts (this was proven with an oscilloscope). Even without a derailment, intermittent interruptions in current flow due to dirt on the wheels/rails/pickup rollers can also generate spikes, and over time these can degrade the integrity of random parts in the circuit boards.
Inserting a device known as a "transient voltage suppressor" or TVS between transformer and track can provide a level of protection from spikes, and a fast-acting breaker would be additional insurance until a modern transformer can be sourced.
@@cobramercilessthat’s only true for Lionel’s CantWork80 (CW80)
Most folks aren't interested in the extra features anyway. One thing I dislike about MTH is when the pcb fails it can cost at least a quarter of the cost of the unit to have repaired.
I think the GP-30 is a Williams-by Bachmann -era model. Williams' GP-7, SD-45 and Dash-8 diesels are more representative of the detail level expected of most of the brand's existence (basically anything with stamped-metal handrails). Also MTH RailKing might be a better comparison detail and price-wise to the WbB-era locomotives (which include some former K-Line models)
The price points of some equipment in this scale are no joke. I'm looking at the Siemens Chargers announced by 3rd Rail. I'd like to get two in Amtrak colors, since that's going to be the future once the Genesis locos start retiring. Then I saw drone footage of the first two Metro-North units at the Siemens factory earlier today. Three locos at $800 each, even though delivery is scheduled to be sometime in 2025, is...whoooooooff (and I say this having bought five Viewliners from them at $300 a pop).
But there aren't enough people doing O gauge (2 _and_ 3-rail combined) to sell enough equipment to drive price points down since you never really get to "mass production" numbers. And even HO scale -- the most popular one -- is seeing prices rivaling where 'O' was not too long ago.
My general limit on O scale loco purchases is the $300-$400 range. Before I would exceed that, I would probably just get a nice Williams or K-Line model (and maybe have sound upgraded).
Yeah the white arcade was quite a hit in the feels there! Had mine stolen so I've got a slim now
If you wire the motors in series, the Williams diesels become much more 'normal' when starting and at speed. It is easy to do. There are UA-cam videos that describe this easy upgrade. (Joey's Trains) You can also upgrade to Soundblast Plus for a reasonable cost yielding a much better sound system
When you are running on 3 rails (as I do), too much detail is JUST OVERKILL!!!
#1) ALL those separately attached extremely detailed accents are just tidbits (almost impossibly discernable when the unit is doing what it meant to do - being in motion) impatiently asking to be broken!
#2) 3 Rail O Scale (opposed to 2 Rail O, HO or N modelling) plays heavily (& quite effectively) on the appeals of childhood nostalgia & a fair amount of retro quasi-kitchiness!
The specific reason the next chronological trend of model railroading after the peak of 3 Rail (HO) jumped down in size (rather than moving up from O) was:
That modellers who desired an emphasis on the "prototypical," would need smaller models to replicate prototypical operations with their highly prototypical trains!
I own TWO MTH locomotive "sets," in addition to all my Lionel stuff:
A.) CGW F-3 ABA lash-up
B.) CGW 4-6-2 steamer
I'm SO happy that MTH essentially 'built upon' the somewhat simplistic design of the Lionel post war F-3!
They added a second headlight, but they kept those distinctly Lionel prototypical liberties!
A good way to put it, when you buy MTH, you’re not buying a model… you’re buying a computer. Everything comes with Protosound 3.0, while Williams markets conventional with horn/true blast. Once you get a transformer with a whistle and bell (or bell control box), you’ll be able to trigger the couplers, use the PFA sequence and properly control the firmware. It does take timing practice, but it opens up why they cost a bit more.
Edit; A little gear grease will quiet the obvious sound. MTH for years now apparently forgets so pre-grease their models. (I’m victim of this too)
I’ve greased it since then, the sound is quieter, but it is still noticeable if you’re listening for it
Really enjoyed the comparison between these two models I believe that Williams is a Excellent product for the price Being familiar with all you can do with the Mike’s system. I disagree with your findings.
Williams versus MTH? Well that's like the difference between a Chevy and a Cadillac. Both will get you where you want to go, how do you want to get there?
I own both MTH and Williams engines and like them both, however I bought the MTH products when I wanted a greater degree of authenticity in certain steam models. BUT, it's hard to beat the sheer value of the Williams products. As a conventional runner I've got features in those MTH engines I'll never use and I realize a lot of what I spent was spent on the electronics.
So, if you're a conventional runner it's hard to beat the sheer value of the Williams product line. Even though they're not made anymore there's still a goodly amount to be found at train shows and on-line dealers with New Old Stock. And since there's little to no collector interest in Williams the prices are typically VERY reasonable.
The only negative thing I can say about Williams dual-motor diesels is they tend to take off like rockets when the power's applied. Easy fix, wire the motors in series and it tames them right down.
As the owner of a $700 HO scale engine, no regrets. Of course, that’s on DCC, but man I love the Big Boy.
But that different.
GP9 trying it's hardest to be a GP7
I picked up the C&O 5704 GP7 in January from Dixie Union Station.
I habe been looking for a good o scale diesel to buy have thought about early 2000s Lionel but have looked into Williams, people are going at bachmann to restore Williams and bring them back,
I would also recommend the older Weaver diesels, which can be found for pretty cheap
I have never heard of weaver. I will have to look them up
Are they command control or conventional?
@@chasesrailwaylinesrr6447 Weaver has been around since the 1960's, birthed as Quality Craft Models, producing mostly kits. The Weaver brand came later as they transitioned to ready-to-run models, and diesel locomotives with details and drivetrains similar to Williams followed. These were all conventional, some were equipped with QSI sound at extra cost. They also made brass steam engines (but those aren't entry-level products)
Interesting I will have to look up about them I know brass steam engines can be expensive But I did formally have my hands on a brass O. scale steam engine no tender Which may have been a weaver product
Soooo... is MTH still a thing or no?
That is a really good question.
Yes, MTH is still alive and well. They reorganized into a smaller company, and moved to a smaller location. They do not produce starter sets anymore, and sold off a lot of tooling they didn't want.
Yes.
Mike semi retired and brought it down to a much smaller low production release company
@@otakurailfan thanks! Not sure why it was so hard to find that answer online, but now I got it.
@@CoalChrome thanks!
5704 is lovely
Wow both are poor. Shouldn’t need traction tyres on locos that big I can get a descent 00 guage model with more detail for about £180
Traction tires are just the norm here. Doesn’t matter the scale. Doesn’t make it a poor model, since replacing them is just part of regular maintenance. My 00 models pull like crap, I wish they had tires
OO gauge is a way different gauge than O, I'll also guarantee you won't get the features of the MTH model from anything in Britain especially Hornby because it's Hornby.
I can also say that the MTH model doesn't need the traction tires, MTH just kinda does that for maximum pulling.
Simply put don't knock it till you try it
Personally, if traction tires wear out on my engines and the engines don't miss them I leave them off. Unless you're running super-long consists the weight of an O Gauge engine's usually more than adequate to get the job done.
Silas Johnson train review Cincinnati railway Company o gayge shart disaster RX7
I don't like that this is more comprehensible than some of the comments I get
@@cobramerciless maybe train enpoosiast can you get the Diamante in Illinois and give it to me for free
@@BlaxlandRidge3are you ok alex?
also your 4-4-0 rebuild video is very inspiring.
@@thetoontrain6073 he’s been walking in circles for weeks, someone please stop him
@@cobramerciless this doesn’t seem like him maybe he hot hacked