Really glad to see that item cleared up about antifreeze being for more than frost levels...as you stated the unit does some freezing of the liquid as well. Thanks for this great information
J.B.R. Thank you Garrett for the simplification of the system and the DIY work and costs. I will be adding a Bosch system to our new build hopefully in 2021, SE Virginia. For years I have thought of doing it at the present house, but as you pointed out, much easier when you have the room and building new than on a smaller lot and drilling multiple wells. Costs will be lower using your fan method and I will rent the excavator for a week to dig the trenches. Thanks again for your insight. This will help me immensely.
I want to diy my geo but need help in the design and specing the equipment. Also building icf. In fact our situations are strikingly similar so your channel has been great
@@Challenged1 If you attend a TECA Foarced Air Online Training program, you will learn everthing you need to know, about equipment and duct sizing. Its a good course.
If using a geothermal system, what you would be describing would be a water-to-water heat pump system, because it would be heating radiant water, not heating air. Question: Is water-to-water for home radiant heating systems more efficient than water-to-air heating systems? Short answer: I don't think it would be more efficient. For efficiency, it basically comes down to compressor high/low pressures and distribution (fan/pump energy). These are the only things that use any energy in the system anyway. Long Answer: For water-to-water source systems, the high-side refrigerant temperature would need be hotter to transfer heat to radiant water (return temps ~90) rather than to heat air (return temps ~65). The compressor have to work harder 'lifting' the refrigerant temperature more. Compressor power is related to high side over low side pressure ratio. This can be raised to 2nd or 3rd power depending on refrigerant and operating conditions. In this case, ratio increases about 40% which to the 2nd power would about double compressor losses. However, the pumps in this system will use less energy than fans. I just don't think they will offset the extra compressor losses in this case. The equipment would definitely be smaller, definietly more efficient than air-to-air source heat pump, but in my opinion not as efficient and water-to-air source heat pump with a residential style air distribution. - Mech engineer with some good experience specifically in these systems.
@@jackwilliams5394 we have a new build and installed in floor heating. I’d love to not use propane since it is so expensive. Who can I talk to or how do I go about setting up geothermal for in floor heating? Can it also be setup to run to an air handler for cooling only?
Did you consider building a more energy efficient envelope instead of needing two large ground source units? Seven tons of heating is huge, even six as you mention could have worked, given a good portion of your build is below grade. I’m building a two storey with basement, 5400 sqft total, so about 2/3 the roof and basement area of your bungalow, but the design heat load is only 2 tons (99% design temp is -13F but I designed for -22F/-30C). It’s super insulated (R55 walls, R11 windows) and a good portion of the added cost for the envelope is saved by needing smaller hvac. Not knocking your build at all; I’m a fierce supporter of DIY and ICF construction certainly has its benefits. Just curious about your approach given the large heat load. Thanks!
Believe it or not, the cost difference for a smaller unit isn't that much. Both of my units have 2-stage compressors, so the majority of the time, they are running in the first stage, which is approximately 60% of full capacity.
@@Challenged1 yes, most 2-stage systems spend most of their time in stage 1. Do you have a rough idea what the duty cycles are at your design temperatures when the units are running in stage 2? I would imagine in cooling season the units may never come out of their first stage.
A lot of people seem to make the same mistake... They oversize the system thinking it works better... In reality it doesn't because it doesn't run long enough to remove excess humidity
Thanks for the breakdown of your build costs, would love to see a spreadsheet/document or an updated version (for all of your cost videos) that broke out the actual parts cost separate from the labor costs given what can be large variations in labor costs in different areas of the country, especially for DIY’ers who will do most of the labor themselves. Otherwise, really appreciate the videos and transparency given that most people don’t feel comfortable talking about their hard numbers. We plan to start building our retirement home using ICF sometime in the next 2’ish years but will be doing it in stages and providing as much of the labor as we possibly can and hiring an experienced ICF home builder as a consultant to answer questions, provide individualized guidance and review our work along the way. He lives in our state about 2-3 hours from the areas we are considering for land to build on so he will also be knowledgeable about our state codes too.
Let me think on that. I've learned when I include spreadsheets within my videos, folks skip straight to the spreadsheet and don't watch the video, which kills my retention time, causing UA-cam to quit promoting my videos. I'm caught in this battle of wanting to be concise, but having to please UA-cam.
@@Challenged1 Makes sense. If you have a blog, maybe put it on there like a week later and only provide a hidden link that you give out at some random time during like the last quarter of the video so they have to watch at least most of the video to get the actual link. Then sometime later you can post a blog entry making the link publicly available. Note, I don’t mean using any sort of special configuration or security, just upload the file and don’t reference it, then you can provide the direct link so the only way to access it is to know what the direct link is for people who are interested in that detail level. Oh and don’t tell them at the beginning of the video that you are going to do it. Your subscribers will come to expect it but non-subscribers won’t until you provide it somewhere near the end of the video.
@@inmyimage1081 Great idea! So far, I've started this UA-cam channel. I will have to decide at some point how the best way to expand is, assuming people want my opinion. It's amazing how much time just UA-cam takes.
@@Challenged1 It certainly can take up a lot of time and for some, investment in equipment and editing tools/software. If you haven’t already, check out the Tube Buddy channel. They have a ton of videos with advice on particular topics. We don’t really have a channel (yet...) but have poked around a bit and they seem to have a lot of good advice as well as a subscription based tool/service that is supposed to better optimize things like SEO.
@@inmyimage1081 You are right, Tube Buddy is pretty awesome and really affordable for the noob like me. I signed up for a year subscription and love the tools they offer.
Does this include the cost of the digging and excavating? Roughly how much did it cost of dig the ground and install the loop? Even if you did it yourself how much did it cost if you prcied your time at $100/hr.
I'm searching the comments for an answer to this question as well. If you are pricing the overall system, excavation needs to be included. I can rent a medium-sized excavator for about $3k per week here in Maine, + $1k in fuel + my time. So I'm guessing I'll need to add another $4k to the overall price of the system. Still a great deal. Great content Garrett, thank you for sharing your experience!
I have 300ft deep pair of wells and 7 trenches but I have a 7,000 sqft ranch and a 100x50ft "shop" but the shop isn't heated by the geo just cooled. Im not sure the tonnage. I just dug the holes lol. I didnt pay a lot of attention to my shit to be honest, ok have a guy who takes care of that stuff in addition to groundskeeping and general maintenance of my 85 acres. I have a 1 acre solar farm planned for the near future in addition to my basically whole roof unit and my wind turbine. I have 135kwh of batteries, fingers crossed my solar farm will cover my baseload needs!!! Hard part is charging the EVs and running my 30HP air compressor to fill the 7,000 gallon of air if I have any of the CNC machines running parts I hit the grid pretty hard
@@Challenged1 I'm really hoping the 1 acre is enough for full baseload power. I know I'll need to go bigger than 135kwh on the batteries if I want to go full renewable. I would love to have my own geo power plant but I uhhh ain't got THAT much money lol
Tax credits are great but it means you have to have tax liability equal to or greater than the credit. Otherwise you get no benefit. But you may be able to apply the credit over multiple years?
I'm starting a ICF built home on 7 acres (foundation & main level) & I'm having a difficult time trying to determine if I should go w/ geothermal vs conventional HVAC system. Considering how efficient ICF is & how efficient conventional HVAC systems are, I'm curious what your thoughts are on geothermal vs conventional in a ICF home? Thanks
My house is ICF as well, so I'm pretty biased on the geothermal if you can get the cost down by doing a bunch yourself. A lot will depend upon you climate too and if you have natural gas nearby.
Okay I just had an idea, why can't you do this around the base of your basement foundation? You are already going down deep in that area and it would require less land.
We are building a house and have to use propane and builder is highly recommending a heat pump for an additional 2600 dollars... really split between what to do... and wish we could avoid propane.. 5k sq ft ranch I don't think they will let us scratch the entire system and install our own
To get the actual unit that I got, more than likely you'll need to get with someone that has a refrigeration license. I own a bunch of income properties, so I have a guy that I use which gives me access. Another alternative is the visit the Ingrams website as they do make kits.
If my soil is primarily sand but I can dig into the water table, would you just recommend digging deep enough to submerge the pipes in water? If I can’t reach water, would you recommend not using this method at all since it’s mostly sand?
I did my Heatpump about 12 years ago ( bought a Chinese water to water heat pump. and use hydronic heating in my house I did mine for $1300 with out any credits. as i paid about $400 for the pump and around $700 for the lines and trenching together. my house was already hydronic so i basically just had to hook it up to that system. i did not go 10 feet only 7 feet and I live in a cold climate ( -45c in the winter. but my ground has high water table of around 6 feet from the surface ) it starts off at +10c (COP of +3) in fall by spring it operating at +5c ( COP +2) so i have a little drop in COP over the winter . the heat pumps are still cheap from supplier in china now $700 per unit for 7kw system. 12 kw is $1200 . meeting heatpump from china )
I’d love to get some advice. I will be using in floor heating for my home (5000 sqft, 2800 on ground level slab on grade) can I use Geothermal for the heating the in floor and then use it with an air handler for cooling?
Ok, I am starting to understand the system better now. I just learned these pumps are in series which leads to higher flow. I had assumed they were 2 circuits. Thanks for the quick reply. And great job on the install. I’m trying my own attempt. If I may, just one more question on the heat pump. I’m looking at the SM060, 5 ton. The websites I look at only show the heat pump not complete with air handler. Are yours complete systems with the air handler? Do you have more pictures of yours?
@@beniaminpolocoser7395 It is all one self-contained package. I have a bunch of Geo videos which show more of the system. You can check them out within my channel.
What precautions did you do to safe guard the pipes from being damaged by stray rocks from the base or backfill? Also, since you were way deeper than needed why wouldn't you lay a layer of line, backfill a foot or so and than another layer of pipe in the same trench? For someone paying for excavation, this would be cheaper.
There were no rocks in my backfill, so didn't have to worry about it. The loops need to have a minimum of 10' separation, so no stacking of loops/lines
Just got two quotes. 3100 square feet. 2 5 series water furnace units. New construction. $96,000. Add $44,000 if I want a water to water for radiant heat.
I would have prefer a figure with all the numbers to sum this out. Too much talking, not enough pictures (my problem, I'm not english speaker and I'm tired!) I've let you a Thumbs UP because you deserve it for showing your observation in UA-cam, unlike 99.999999999999% of peoples who dont.
@@Challenged1 You are right, just a spreadsheet would have been absurdly boring! I was more thinking of a mix of the spreadsheets, pictures and short video to keep the attention high. Pretty much like typical multimillions views video, but in a way more modest scale.
@@alexandrevaliquette1941 It's my goal to get to something like that. Right now, I just don't have the skill to bring that to life. Hoping to build those skills as time goes on.
@@Challenged1 As I said, you can already be very proud of yourself. 99.9999% of people don't make video, don't share freely what they learned, their life experience. So, getting better on editing and "UA-cam stuff"... Sure, another fun project!
In So AZ the temps range from 20F low in winter to 110F high in summer. I like warm temps and low humidity. Can a GT Air Conditioning system, in this environment, maintain a constant indoor temperature of 75-78F year around, night or day, 24/7 with a humidity in the 30-50% range?
Hi Garrett, I have a question about your manifolds which are used to fan-out and fan-in the loops. I'm wondering about the fluid dynamics. Why not have each of the loops in series, connecting the output of one loop to input of the next? Would this require a larger pump? I suspect the parallel nature of your loops may reduce the effective length of tubing applied to your system, but I could be misunderstanding something. Great videos, thanks for sharing!
@@kdub4pres They are in parallel, with each loop being the necessary amount to transfer 12000 btu worth of energy. The longer the tubes, the more friction within the pipe, and the bigger the pump required.
It is about delta 'T'. As the water in the loop warms, it collects less heat from the ground. You need to maintain flow and tube length so the water in the tube is always colder than the ground heat source. Any tubing beyond the point where the water is near the ground temp. is just wasted. And, as the winter goes on , the ground gets colder. You have taken a lot of heat out of it. Tubes need to be short and many.
Thanks ... learned a lot. i have the land and am building a smaller house mostly off grid ... would it be worth it to bypass the heatpump idea and use geothermal energy for just radiant floor heating/cooling.
Do you know how many kilowatts your geothermal system uses daily, weekly or monthly? If a roof top solar panel system made the KW I'm wondering how many extra KW would be needed for the heating and air conditioning year round.
@@Challenged1 your utility company likely has a month to month and or a weekly break down of your kwh usage. They need to know it for grid management. So it is measured and perhaps available to you ?
If a person were to install a retro-fit, would it be possible to get a ductless system (like an air-to-air heat pump)? Retrofitting ducting can be extremely expensive in a house with on-grade slab foundation and very little attic space.
Do you have existing ducts in your home? If so, then the system I installed acts exactly like your typical air handler and installs to your existing ductwork the same way. The main difference is the condenser that normally sits outside is replaced with pipes that are placed in the ground. If you don't have ducts already, you can install insulated ducts within the attic space for a forced air system.
Did you do a cost comparison on the geothermal heat pump vs a regular heat pump and installing more solar panels to pay for all of your electric needs? Seems to me it would be easier and cheaper to just install a big solar array and not even have a 100 dollar power bill a month?
At the time, I had no idea as to the potential energy needs of the house. The solar was actually an after thought as I was building the house. I happened to come across a guy selling pallets (18) of solar panels for cheap. I couldn't buy less than a pallet, and knew I didn't need two pallets. That's the story of how my system was sized.
@@Challenged1 A few more solar panels and you can get rid of that 100 dollar power bill. You did great job in going with green low cost ac and heating. Nicely done.
Thanks Garrett,. Here is Texas we have high property taxes and high population growth. The average US home is only 2500 SQ and this number will be declining in the future. Currently in the US, we have 70% of the age group between 19 and 40 are Single marital status so there is no need for even a 2500 SF home in most areas. Of course this trend can change. It looks like you have a passion for Geothermal. Have you considered starting your own firm to install systems? It looks like you are already on the right by finding a low cost supplier.
Ya in Europe most houses are somewhere around 1000ish square feet and I'm hearing quotes upwards of 100k all the time. Might be because of the drilling costs since drilling companies seem to be almost non existent here
Not sure where you are located but you likely will never have the back up heat come on. That would be a lot more likely with DX style of installation. DX the installation is in drilled wells with copper pipe using refrigerant ... no water loops and no pumps. They tend to be 20 to 30 % more efficient than your amazingly efficient system
That sounds interesting, and I assume considerably more expensive. I agree, I don't think the heat strips will ever be used. I really only intended to have one system with heat strips, but I was a bit hamstrung by what was in stock.
@@Challenged1 actually from what I can determine the eq is cheaper and the cost of drilling is likely about the same as any well drilling. 150 ft well all drilled from a center point with a drill that can go directionally
@@Challenged1 laughing .. no one said you had to hook the power or even run a power line.. Just disconnect the strip from the control board. easy enough to trace the wire back to the relay and mother board
@@curtiskoop5783 I feel your pain!!! I love my kids, but they are so loud and always there. I think being older and having kids make it a lot tougher on the sleep side of things. Being older and having kids on the money side of things is definitely the way to go.
Outside air temp really has very little to do with the system efficiency, because it isnt using the outside air for anything. The ground temp remains relatively steady, and as it uses that ground to hear and cool-that is the temperature that needs to be considered.
@challenged1 Just got a list price for that SM048 of over $20,000. Did they really go up that much in price over the past 2 years or did you get a super sweet best friend deal lol?
HI GARRETT. CCOULDVYOU EMAILNWHERE YOU BOUGHT THE GSHP YOU USED IN YOUR GEOTHERMAL HVAC SYSTEMS? I AM PLANNINGBTO BUY THE GSHP FOR A PLANNED PROJECT IN THE PHILIPPINES. I AM PLANNING A HOUSE ON A 681 SQM I JUST BOUGHT. IAM PLANNING TO BUILD A 2,000 SQF HOUSE ON IT. SOME YEARS BACK I GOT INVOLVED IN AN GEOTHERMAL HVAC CLOSE TO SEATTLE, WASHINGTON. I ALSO FOUND OUT THAT THE TUBING WITH SAME SPECS ARE PRODUCED IN THE PHILIPPINES. I WILL BE BUYING SOME OF THE PERIPHERALS FOR THE INSTALLATION. I HOPE YOU CAN GUIDE ME THROUGH WHEN I NEED YOUR ADVICE. HOPING FOR YOUR KIND CONSIDERATIONS. THANK YOU AND REGARDS
just for confusion.. Bosch buys heat pump maker FHP Bosch has acquired all shares of FHP from a group of investors led by G.L. Ohrstrom & Co. The purchase price will not be disclosed. "With the acquisition of FHP, our growth trajectory in the promising renewable-energy segment is now strengthened in the attractive U.S. market," Thermotechnology President Joachim Berner said. "Because of their energy-efficient and environmentally friendly technology, I used to sell FHP equipment it is in my view a superior product
@@Challenged1 last that I installed was a very simple de superheater. Inline in the hi pressure line .. It had a high and low thermister to control a Taco pump that circulated water to the water heater. The water heater was basically turned off most of the year, endless hot water and the SEER of the hvac went up
@@stevepailet8258 How did they connect it to the hot water heater? That's always my hang up. I know there is some kind of two-way fitting that can be installed in the drain valve of the water heater, but get plugged very easily. I assume there has to be a better way.
@@Challenged1 water in water out. all copper sweat.. freon in freon out again all copper sweat i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3-gAAOxy63FSr2ua/s-l640.jpg This is what that heat exchanger looked like but only 2 loops. as you can see very straight forward one side is connected to the pump. so you plumb in from the pump side and then back out. as for the freon the high side tubing is cut with a fitting and tube that goes to the small pipe and then back into the tube that was cut going back to the inside unit
@@Challenged1 remove the drain valve. then install a nipple with tee. then from there re install drain valve. tee off of this to the heat exchanger Tee into hot side of tank at the top. now you have a full open loop into the tank. nothing to clog
Four years in the future, you seem to be saving about $250/month on utility bills, say $3000 a year. You will have almost paid it off entirely by now. PS. Does it work well/at all for cooling?
HMMM THERE HAS TO BE AN EVEN CHEAPER WAY WHY NOT GO DOWN 4 FT AND LAY A PIPE AROUND 1/2 THE STRUCTURE AND ADD A FAN TO THAT AND THAT SHOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH IT JUST SEEMS THAT THE OLD MAN ON HERE THAT GROWS ORANGES TELLS FOLKS IT SHOULDNT COST MORE THAN A GRAND TO BUILD A SIMPLE SYSTEM LIKE HIS 12 X 40
It's pretty shocking that you don't know the correct terminology. This is called a "ground source" system. Geothermal goes deep into the earth to access boiling water.
Really glad to see that item cleared up about antifreeze being for more than frost levels...as you stated the unit does some freezing of the liquid as well. Thanks for this great information
J.B.R.
Thank you Garrett for the simplification of the system and the DIY work and costs. I will be adding a Bosch system to our new build hopefully in 2021, SE Virginia. For years I have thought of doing it at the present house, but as you pointed out, much easier when you have the room and building new than on a smaller lot and drilling multiple wells. Costs will be lower using your fan method and I will rent the excavator for a week to dig the trenches. Thanks again for your insight. This will help me immensely.
I'm glad to help. Another geo vid coming tomorrow
I'd like to know. How cold are winters in your area? How warm are summers?
And how much KWh electricity does your system use whole year around?
He mentioned the system has been in operation from -18°F up to 110°F, I believe that was in another video
:) one more nice video!
I feel like back in university and you the professor explaining in details how to do a project work :)
I want to diy my geo but need help in the design and specing the equipment. Also building icf. In fact our situations are strikingly similar so your channel has been great
Good deal!!!
@@Challenged1 If you attend a TECA Foarced Air Online Training program, you will learn everthing you need to know, about equipment and duct sizing. Its a good course.
Perfect level of detail.
Thanks for the details
Sound is better than it used to be too
Thanks for the feedback
Thank you very much, I really learned a lot from you, thank you from Libya.
You're welcome
Pro tip: you can watch movies at flixzone. Me and my gf have been using it for watching all kinds of movies these days.
@Ethan Cain yup, have been watching on flixzone for since november myself :D
Great informative video. It might be worth mentioning, at least for new builds, that by going radiant in-floor, even more savings could be realized.
If using a geothermal system, what you would be describing would be a water-to-water heat pump system, because it would be heating radiant water, not heating air.
Question: Is water-to-water for home radiant heating systems more efficient than water-to-air heating systems?
Short answer:
I don't think it would be more efficient.
For efficiency, it basically comes down to compressor high/low pressures and distribution (fan/pump energy).
These are the only things that use any energy in the system anyway.
Long Answer:
For water-to-water source systems, the high-side refrigerant temperature would need be hotter to transfer heat to radiant water (return temps ~90) rather than to heat air (return temps ~65).
The compressor have to work harder 'lifting' the refrigerant temperature more.
Compressor power is related to high side over low side pressure ratio.
This can be raised to 2nd or 3rd power depending on refrigerant and operating conditions.
In this case, ratio increases about 40% which to the 2nd power would about double compressor losses.
However, the pumps in this system will use less energy than fans.
I just don't think they will offset the extra compressor losses in this case.
The equipment would definitely be smaller, definietly more efficient than air-to-air source heat pump, but in my opinion not as efficient and water-to-air source heat pump with a residential style air distribution.
- Mech engineer with some good experience specifically in these systems.
@@jackwilliams5394 we have a new build and installed in floor heating. I’d love to not use propane since it is so expensive. Who can I talk to or how do I go about setting up geothermal for in floor heating? Can it also be setup to run to an air handler for cooling only?
@@guachito2rico Good idea.
You just answered my pipe diameter question. Great information. Thank you.
Did you consider building a more energy efficient envelope instead of needing two large ground source units? Seven tons of heating is huge, even six as you mention could have worked, given a good portion of your build is below grade.
I’m building a two storey with basement, 5400 sqft total, so about 2/3 the roof and basement area of your bungalow, but the design heat load is only 2 tons (99% design temp is -13F but I designed for -22F/-30C). It’s super insulated (R55 walls, R11 windows) and a good portion of the added cost for the envelope is saved by needing smaller hvac.
Not knocking your build at all; I’m a fierce supporter of DIY and ICF construction certainly has its benefits. Just curious about your approach given the large heat load. Thanks!
Believe it or not, the cost difference for a smaller unit isn't that much. Both of my units have 2-stage compressors, so the majority of the time, they are running in the first stage, which is approximately 60% of full capacity.
@@Challenged1 yes, most 2-stage systems spend most of their time in stage 1. Do you have a rough idea what the duty cycles are at your design temperatures when the units are running in stage 2? I would imagine in cooling season the units may never come out of their first stage.
Thanks a lot for this valuable content!
A lot of people seem to make the same mistake... They oversize the system thinking it works better... In reality it doesn't because it doesn't run long enough to remove excess humidity
Very informative and helpful video, thank you!
Thanks for the breakdown of your build costs, would love to see a spreadsheet/document or an updated version (for all of your cost videos) that broke out the actual parts cost separate from the labor costs given what can be large variations in labor costs in different areas of the country, especially for DIY’ers who will do most of the labor themselves.
Otherwise, really appreciate the videos and transparency given that most people don’t feel comfortable talking about their hard numbers. We plan to start building our retirement home using ICF sometime in the next 2’ish years but will be doing it in stages and providing as much of the labor as we possibly can and hiring an experienced ICF home builder as a consultant to answer questions, provide individualized guidance and review our work along the way. He lives in our state about 2-3 hours from the areas we are considering for land to build on so he will also be knowledgeable about our state codes too.
Let me think on that. I've learned when I include spreadsheets within my videos, folks skip straight to the spreadsheet and don't watch the video, which kills my retention time, causing UA-cam to quit promoting my videos. I'm caught in this battle of wanting to be concise, but having to please UA-cam.
@@Challenged1 Makes sense. If you have a blog, maybe put it on there like a week later and only provide a hidden link that you give out at some random time during like the last quarter of the video so they have to watch at least most of the video to get the actual link. Then sometime later you can post a blog entry making the link publicly available.
Note, I don’t mean using any sort of special configuration or security, just upload the file and don’t reference it, then you can provide the direct link so the only way to access it is to know what the direct link is for people who are interested in that detail level.
Oh and don’t tell them at the beginning of the video that you are going to do it. Your subscribers will come to expect it but non-subscribers won’t until you provide it somewhere near the end of the video.
@@inmyimage1081 Great idea! So far, I've started this UA-cam channel. I will have to decide at some point how the best way to expand is, assuming people want my opinion. It's amazing how much time just UA-cam takes.
@@Challenged1 It certainly can take up a lot of time and for some, investment in equipment and editing tools/software. If you haven’t already, check out the Tube Buddy channel. They have a ton of videos with advice on particular topics. We don’t really have a channel (yet...) but have poked around a bit and they seem to have a lot of good advice as well as a subscription based tool/service that is supposed to better optimize things like SEO.
@@inmyimage1081 You are right, Tube Buddy is pretty awesome and really affordable for the noob like me. I signed up for a year subscription and love the tools they offer.
Does this include the cost of the digging and excavating? Roughly how much did it cost of dig the ground and install the loop? Even if you did it yourself how much did it cost if you prcied your time at $100/hr.
I don't know what a company would charge to do the excavation. This is the area where the majority of the savings would occur though.
I'm searching the comments for an answer to this question as well. If you are pricing the overall system, excavation needs to be included. I can rent a medium-sized excavator for about $3k per week here in Maine, + $1k in fuel + my time. So I'm guessing I'll need to add another $4k to the overall price of the system. Still a great deal. Great content Garrett, thank you for sharing your experience!
Many thanks. Very detailed informations. I would try to make myself too.
I have 300ft deep pair of wells and 7 trenches but I have a 7,000 sqft ranch and a 100x50ft "shop" but the shop isn't heated by the geo just cooled. Im not sure the tonnage. I just dug the holes lol. I didnt pay a lot of attention to my shit to be honest, ok have a guy who takes care of that stuff in addition to groundskeeping and general maintenance of my 85 acres. I have a 1 acre solar farm planned for the near future in addition to my basically whole roof unit and my wind turbine. I have 135kwh of batteries, fingers crossed my solar farm will cover my baseload needs!!! Hard part is charging the EVs and running my 30HP air compressor to fill the 7,000 gallon of air if I have any of the CNC machines running parts I hit the grid pretty hard
Very cool, thank you for sharing!
@@Challenged1 I'm really hoping the 1 acre is enough for full baseload power. I know I'll need to go bigger than 135kwh on the batteries if I want to go full renewable. I would love to have my own geo power plant but I uhhh ain't got THAT much money lol
Tax credits are great but it means you have to have tax liability equal to or greater than the credit. Otherwise you get no benefit. But you may be able to apply the credit over multiple years?
Correct, you can carry any remaining to the next years until it is exhausted
I'm starting a ICF built home on 7 acres (foundation & main level) & I'm having a difficult time trying to determine if I should go w/ geothermal vs conventional HVAC system. Considering how efficient ICF is & how efficient conventional HVAC systems are, I'm curious what your thoughts are on geothermal vs conventional in a ICF home? Thanks
My house is ICF as well, so I'm pretty biased on the geothermal if you can get the cost down by doing a bunch yourself. A lot will depend upon you climate too and if you have natural gas nearby.
Do you know the freezing point for a 20% glycol mix?
Okay I just had an idea, why can't you do this around the base of your basement foundation? You are already going down deep in that area and it would require less land.
It would tend to pull heat out of the house since it's so close to the house.
We are building a house and have to use propane and builder is highly recommending a heat pump for an additional 2600 dollars... really split between what to do... and wish we could avoid propane.. 5k sq ft ranch I don't think they will let us scratch the entire system and install our own
Can you list the supplier website for the kits on all your geothermal posts? Thanks
To get the actual unit that I got, more than likely you'll need to get with someone that has a refrigeration license. I own a bunch of income properties, so I have a guy that I use which gives me access. Another alternative is the visit the Ingrams website as they do make kits.
@@Challenged1 Is a refrig license different than plumbing?
@@jakeglenn2246 Yes
If my soil is primarily sand but I can dig into the water table, would you just recommend digging deep enough to submerge the pipes in water? If I can’t reach water, would you recommend not using this method at all since it’s mostly sand?
If the sand has a high moisture content, then you are good to go.
Great video! What kind of piping did you put underground? Just normal PEX pipes? Thanks!
HDPE SDR 11
I did my Heatpump about 12 years ago ( bought a Chinese water to water heat pump. and use hydronic heating in my house I did mine for $1300 with out any credits. as i paid about $400 for the pump and around $700 for the lines and trenching together. my house was already hydronic so i basically just had to hook it up to that system. i did not go 10 feet only 7 feet and I live in a cold climate ( -45c in the winter. but my ground has high water table of around 6 feet from the surface ) it starts off at +10c (COP of +3) in fall by spring it operating at +5c ( COP +2) so i have a little drop in COP over the winter . the heat pumps are still cheap from supplier in china now $700 per unit for 7kw system. 12 kw is $1200 . meeting heatpump from china )
Thanks for sharing
Are the rebates still available ???
I’d love to get some advice. I will be using in floor heating for my home (5000 sqft, 2800 on ground level slab on grade) can I use Geothermal for the heating the in floor and then use it with an air handler for cooling?
I don't know. It would be dependent on what the manufacturer makes. That's not an application I've researched.
Hi Garrett, I’m trying to figure out why you used a dual gt flow center for the 4 ton system. Was it needed or will a single gt flow center work?
It was spec'd by my supplier. My assumption is I needed the extra flow to maintain the correct temperature differential.
Ok, I am starting to understand the system better now. I just learned these pumps are in series which leads to higher flow. I had assumed they were 2 circuits. Thanks for the quick reply. And great job on the install. I’m trying my own attempt. If I may, just one more question on the heat pump. I’m looking at the SM060, 5 ton. The websites I look at only show the heat pump not complete with air handler. Are yours complete systems with the air handler? Do you have more pictures of yours?
@@beniaminpolocoser7395 It is all one self-contained package. I have a bunch of Geo videos which show more of the system. You can check them out within my channel.
What precautions did you do to safe guard the pipes from being damaged by stray rocks from the base or backfill? Also, since you were way deeper than needed why wouldn't you lay a layer of line, backfill a foot or so and than another layer of pipe in the same trench? For someone paying for excavation, this would be cheaper.
There were no rocks in my backfill, so didn't have to worry about it.
The loops need to have a minimum of 10' separation, so no stacking of loops/lines
What brand and size air handler did you use with the bosh heat pump, or is it inclusive with the SMO36
It's all in one unit
Just got two quotes. 3100 square feet. 2 5 series water furnace units. New construction. $96,000. Add $44,000 if I want a water to water for radiant heat.
Goodness!!!!!
I would have prefer a figure with all the numbers to sum this out.
Too much talking, not enough pictures (my problem, I'm not english speaker and I'm tired!)
I've let you a Thumbs UP because you deserve it for showing your observation in UA-cam, unlike 99.999999999999% of peoples who dont.
I understand. I've learned that folks won't watch the video if I just made a spreadsheet of numbers, which ends up hurting my UA-cam channel.
@@Challenged1 You are right, just a spreadsheet would have been absurdly boring! I was more thinking of a mix of the spreadsheets, pictures and short video to keep the attention high. Pretty much like typical multimillions views video, but in a way more modest scale.
@@alexandrevaliquette1941 It's my goal to get to something like that. Right now, I just don't have the skill to bring that to life. Hoping to build those skills as time goes on.
@@Challenged1 As I said, you can already be very proud of yourself. 99.9999% of people don't make video, don't share freely what they learned, their life experience.
So, getting better on editing and "UA-cam stuff"... Sure, another fun project!
In So AZ the temps range from 20F low in winter to 110F high in summer. I like warm temps and low humidity. Can a GT Air Conditioning system, in this environment, maintain a constant indoor temperature of 75-78F year around, night or day, 24/7 with a humidity in the 30-50% range?
All day every day as long as it is designed correctly
Great video. Where did you buy your system from?
Local HVAC supplier
@@Challenged1 Thank you
can you give me the name of the supplier I am having trouble finding a place to buy the system
@@fatphlash1 You will have to have a refrigeration license to get one at a local supply house.
Hi Garrett, I have a question about your manifolds which are used to fan-out and fan-in the loops. I'm wondering about the fluid dynamics. Why not have each of the loops in series, connecting the output of one loop to input of the next? Would this require a larger pump? I suspect the parallel nature of your loops may reduce the effective length of tubing applied to your system, but I could be misunderstanding something.
Great videos, thanks for sharing!
Hmm, maybe the manifold does not connect all of the loops together, but does connect each loop so they are in series?
Maybe only one loops distance of 600ft is required to heat/cool the liquid and the additional loops are to add more volume?
@@kdub4pres They are in parallel, with each loop being the necessary amount to transfer 12000 btu worth of energy. The longer the tubes, the more friction within the pipe, and the bigger the pump required.
@@Challenged1 ah ok. Thanks! Cool stuff
It is about delta 'T'. As the water in the loop warms, it collects less heat from the ground. You need to maintain flow and tube length so the water in the tube is always colder than the ground heat source. Any tubing beyond the point where the water is near the ground temp. is just wasted. And, as the winter goes on , the ground gets colder. You have taken a lot of heat out of it. Tubes need to be short and many.
Thanks ... learned a lot. i have the land and am building a smaller house mostly off grid ... would it be worth it to bypass the heatpump idea and use geothermal energy for just radiant floor heating/cooling.
If it's a smaller house, definitely
What about a vertical system, how deep, where do I go to make the right call, Groveland CA
A vertical system will require a well driller. I would first talk to your governing body, and then a driller to start getting info.
Great content Garrett.
Thanks
Do you know how many kilowatts your geothermal system uses daily, weekly or monthly? If a roof top solar panel system made the KW I'm wondering how many extra KW would be needed for the heating and air conditioning year round.
I don't. All I can figure is the total used for the whole house. I also have a 5KW solar array.
@@Challenged1 your utility company likely has a month to month and or a weekly break down of your kwh usage. They need to know it for grid management. So it is measured and perhaps available to you ?
@@sailme2day The breakdown would be for the whole house usage, not the HVAC specifically.
If a person were to install a retro-fit, would it be possible to get a ductless system (like an air-to-air heat pump)? Retrofitting ducting can be extremely expensive in a house with on-grade slab foundation and very little attic space.
Do you have existing ducts in your home? If so, then the system I installed acts exactly like your typical air handler and installs to your existing ductwork the same way. The main difference is the condenser that normally sits outside is replaced with pipes that are placed in the ground. If you don't have ducts already, you can install insulated ducts within the attic space for a forced air system.
Did you do a cost comparison on the geothermal heat pump vs a regular heat pump and installing more solar panels to pay for all of your electric needs? Seems to me it would be easier and cheaper to just install a big solar array and not even have a 100 dollar power bill a month?
At the time, I had no idea as to the potential energy needs of the house. The solar was actually an after thought as I was building the house. I happened to come across a guy selling pallets (18) of solar panels for cheap. I couldn't buy less than a pallet, and knew I didn't need two pallets. That's the story of how my system was sized.
@@Challenged1 A few more solar panels and you can get rid of that 100 dollar power bill. You did great job in going with green low cost ac and heating. Nicely done.
@@stevew5212 I'll have a video coming out in about a month sizing solar systems. You may find it interesting why I have a smaller system.
@@Challenged1 cool
Thanks Garrett,. Here is Texas we have high property taxes and high population growth. The average US home is only 2500 SQ and this number will be declining in the future. Currently in the US, we have 70% of the age group between 19 and 40 are Single marital status so there is no need for even a 2500 SF home in most areas. Of course this trend can change. It looks like you have a passion for Geothermal. Have you considered starting your own firm to install systems? It looks like you are already on the right by finding a low cost supplier.
Hi! What is the price for the loop per foot or per ton?
Too many variables to price it like that.
$26K for 5600 sq ft heated space seems pretty reasonable.
Ya in Europe most houses are somewhere around 1000ish square feet and I'm hearing quotes upwards of 100k all the time. Might be because of the drilling costs since drilling companies seem to be almost non existent here
your numbers are they "installed numbers" ??? or did you do the work?
I did everything myself except the ductwork
Not sure where you are located but you likely will never have the back up heat come on. That would be a lot more likely with DX style of installation. DX the installation is in drilled wells with copper pipe using refrigerant ... no water loops and no pumps. They tend to be 20 to 30 % more efficient than your amazingly efficient system
That sounds interesting, and I assume considerably more expensive. I agree, I don't think the heat strips will ever be used. I really only intended to have one system with heat strips, but I was a bit hamstrung by what was in stock.
@@Challenged1 actually from what I can determine the eq is cheaper and the cost of drilling is likely about the same as any well drilling. 150 ft well all drilled from a center point with a drill that can go directionally
@@Challenged1 laughing .. no one said you had to hook the power or even run a power line.. Just disconnect the strip from the control board. easy enough to trace the wire back to the relay and mother board
If I have access to Nat. Gas, Would I save more ? I am looking into SOLAR & WIND ? 16161 zip code ! thank you..
That is a huge house holy cow
It seems big until you have a 2 and 4 year old running around screaming. Then, it never seems big enough!!!
Yeah I have a 4 year old a 1 year old and a new born in a 1700 square foot house
@@curtiskoop5783 I feel your pain!!! I love my kids, but they are so loud and always there. I think being older and having kids make it a lot tougher on the sleep side of things. Being older and having kids on the money side of things is definitely the way to go.
great video
How much of kwh does your electrical bill add up to for heating?
I pay $.10/KWH and my average electric bill year round is $100.
@
Garrett Glaser. So you need 600 ft of line to get one ton of heat power?
For my soil conditions, yes.
Dense wet clay moves a lot of heat. Dry sand is a good insulator. Little heat flux. There are charts of heat flux through soils.
Have you connected also to a double flux ventilation ?
no
Can we get this product here in gulf area it need it argentaly so hot here
If its 60 degrees outside wouldnt that mean the geothermal system is less efficient than a traditional system in heating up to say 73?
Outside air temp really has very little to do with the system efficiency, because it isnt using the outside air for anything. The ground temp remains relatively steady, and as it uses that ground to hear and cool-that is the temperature that needs to be considered.
I live in San Diego, where can I get help ti install one
Just start calling HVAC companies and explain what you are wanting to do. Do a google search
Your soil is probably to dry to make this work. Your air is warm enough to use a air source heat pump.
@challenged1 Just got a list price for that SM048 of over $20,000. Did they really go up that much in price over the past 2 years or did you get a super sweet best friend deal lol?
I was pricing one out about 1.5 years ago for a different build, and the price was only about 15% more.
HI GARRETT. CCOULDVYOU EMAILNWHERE YOU BOUGHT THE GSHP YOU USED IN YOUR GEOTHERMAL HVAC SYSTEMS? I AM PLANNINGBTO BUY THE GSHP FOR A PLANNED PROJECT IN THE PHILIPPINES. I AM PLANNING A HOUSE ON A 681 SQM I JUST BOUGHT. IAM PLANNING TO BUILD A 2,000 SQF HOUSE ON IT. SOME YEARS BACK I GOT INVOLVED IN AN GEOTHERMAL HVAC CLOSE TO SEATTLE, WASHINGTON. I ALSO FOUND OUT THAT THE TUBING WITH SAME SPECS ARE PRODUCED IN THE PHILIPPINES. I WILL BE BUYING SOME OF THE PERIPHERALS FOR THE INSTALLATION. I HOPE YOU CAN GUIDE ME THROUGH WHEN I NEED YOUR ADVICE. HOPING FOR YOUR KIND CONSIDERATIONS. THANK YOU AND REGARDS
I bought it from a local supplier. You will most likely need to do the same.
just for confusion.. Bosch buys heat pump maker FHP
Bosch has acquired all shares of FHP from a group of investors led by G.L. Ohrstrom & Co. The purchase price will not be disclosed. "With the acquisition of FHP, our growth trajectory in the promising renewable-energy segment is now strengthened in the attractive U.S. market," Thermotechnology President Joachim Berner said. "Because of their energy-efficient and environmentally friendly technology, I used to sell FHP equipment it is in my view a superior product
Correct, from what I understand or have been told by hvac guys, FHP was pretty much top of the line and bosch just relabeled it with their name.
@@Challenged1 last that I installed was a very simple de superheater. Inline in the hi pressure line .. It had a high and low thermister to control a Taco pump that circulated water to the water heater. The water heater was basically turned off most of the year, endless hot water and the SEER of the hvac went up
@@stevepailet8258 How did they connect it to the hot water heater? That's always my hang up. I know there is some kind of two-way fitting that can be installed in the drain valve of the water heater, but get plugged very easily. I assume there has to be a better way.
@@Challenged1 water in water out. all copper sweat.. freon in freon out again all copper sweat i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3-gAAOxy63FSr2ua/s-l640.jpg This is what that heat exchanger looked like but only 2 loops. as you can see very straight forward one side is connected to the pump. so you plumb in from the pump side and then back out. as for the freon the high side tubing is cut with a fitting and tube that goes to the small pipe and then back into the tube that was cut going back to the inside unit
@@Challenged1 remove the drain valve. then install a nipple with tee. then from there re install drain valve. tee off of this to the heat exchanger Tee into hot side of tank at the top. now you have a full open loop into the tank. nothing to clog
Four years in the future, you seem to be saving about $250/month on utility bills, say $3000 a year. You will have almost paid it off entirely by now. PS. Does it work well/at all for cooling?
Works amazingly well!!!
Does the Heat Recovery Package provide enough hot water for you and your family?
I haven't hooked it up yet. Planning to this spring
@@Challenged1 The manual says that this may be able to heat a tank of hot water enough for the entire house, but I haven’t found any specs yet
why it is not made of copper??? is better heat transfer material
$$$
The HDPE pipe used has a lifespan of 50-100 years, copper would fail well before that time.
Who was the supplier?
Key Refrigeration Supply in Wichita, KS
@@Challenged1 Cool, it seems like if they are willing to sell to you that they would be incentivized to help you spec out the system.
you scored for two systems.
I think so
Absolute insane amount of money 😢
Amazing till you made that ghetto manifold. $30k spend…what’s another $500?!
HMMM THERE HAS TO BE AN EVEN CHEAPER WAY WHY NOT GO DOWN 4 FT AND LAY A PIPE AROUND 1/2 THE STRUCTURE AND ADD A FAN TO THAT AND THAT SHOULD BE MORE THAN ENOUGH IT JUST SEEMS THAT THE OLD MAN ON HERE THAT GROWS ORANGES TELLS FOLKS IT SHOULDNT COST MORE THAN A GRAND TO BUILD A SIMPLE SYSTEM LIKE HIS 12 X 40
You won't get enough BTU's out of a system like that
就会干聊…😅
It's pretty shocking that you don't know the correct terminology. This is called a "ground source" system. Geothermal goes deep into the earth to access boiling water.
The marketing term is geothermal, the technical term is ground source heat pump
I’ll bet you’re fun at parties.
Try sitting on your hands, super distracting waving them around as you talk. Thanks