Loudspeaker Science: How to Identify Good Speaker Designs
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- Опубліковано 1 січ 2016
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www.audioholics.com - Loudspeaker Science: How to Identify Good Speaker Designs. In this video, we have a special guest Mr. Shane Rich, Technical Director of RBH Sound, and expert loudspeaker designer to discuss driver design and how to identify good speakers from mediocre ones. We discuss driver mechanics, cone materials and topologies to gain a better understanding of how high performance speakers work. Better parts truly can yield better performance in the hands of a competent designer which are more common these days with the advent of inexpensive measurement equipment and knowledge of the basics in loudspeaker mechanics 101.
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My first audio system, 1976, had ESS AMT-5 as speakers, they used the Heil driver mentioned. With a 12 in woofer and 1500 Hz crossover, they were pretty good for the price and time. I used them in one way or another until 2001 without a problem other than a woofer reconing in early 90's. It's good to see there's still new developments in the tech 40 years later. god I'm old, can I get reconed?
This answered so many questions, thanks!
Bought some RBH speakers on eBay by mistake a few years ago, never heard of them before then. I couldn't believe how good they were, never looked back, been a customer since.
Have you guys considered Klipsch's newest Reference Premeir line as a review? I own the RP280F's floorstanders and love them, as well as the center and surrounds. My dad has owned a pair of Klipschs for going on 30 years and they still sound amazing, all with oak cabinets only the 80's could love haha. Anyway keep up the great reviews, Ive learned alot from you guys!!
Have you reviewed the Klipsch Reference primer line of speakers particularly the RP-280F and all the floor standing speakers, and Dolby Atmos speakers?
great Vid Bro. Loved it Super informative! NEXT one talk Cabinet design and how diff type of bracing effects sound resonance and types of woods used plus how they are bolted in counts :)
Great topic
What is the difference in using a foam surround woofer verses a hard cone edge woofer. Here's my plan. I have two 2 way speakers with a 12" woofer that is hard coned and I'm going to swap them out with two foam surround woofers also 12" from a console stereo due to impedance mismatch. The bottom of the cabinet has a vent hole screened almost the width of the cabinet, going left to right. Will the foam surround woofer work for better low bass response? Gary
i have kef r 50 speakers driven by aventage reciever,i have always thought that a 2 way speaker design was a compromiize as i cannot see this is good when one driver handles the bass & midrange ? this is why i bought floorstanders not 2 way smaller speakers as matter of interest my uni q has a wave guide and let me tell you my kefs are best speakers i have owned previous speakers klipsh( to harsh) and q acoustics which i found to soft in sound but these kefs are incredable so i ask again are 2 way speakers a compromize ?
10:30 - It also depends in the Xover design; whether it's both, a high order (steep) and what domain (digital) the Xover is implemented in.
would you guys recommend using towers for surrounds? or is it just overkill?
Interesting video.
At the beginning of the video, you mentioned how many manufacturers do not actually manufacturer their own drivers, "They anodized the driver a different color and claim it as their own".
The woofer in the speaker shown is a Dayton Audio RS150-8 with a clear anodized finish. If you look at the exploded view of the midrange it even bears the Dayton Audio mark on the right side of the surround.
This driver costs $39.
True, but most of RBH's use a different driver, just one of the bookshelf speakers uses a (modified I think) Dayton driver - the magnet backplate is somewhat different from the Dayton RS150-8, but the appearance is otherwise the same - without the Thiele-Small parameters there is no way to really compare them!
Another important point about tweeters is the QTS, if it's not good you have to cross over much higher,. The Dayton áudio dc25t-8 is a very good budget titanium tweeter, the fs is a litle high (1500hz) but the qts is very low, you can cross over at 3500hz without harshness, harshness that you find in budget jbl speakers like ES line.
How can I get RBH speakers because there is no store in my area?
How important is a driver volume displacement above 1 kHz? Let's say one dome midrange driver has larger radiating area (38 cm2 vs 26 cm2), but at a same time it has much lower Xmax than smaller full-range driver (0.5 mm vs 3 mm). Could the first driver play nearly as loud as the second in a 1-4 KHz range ?
I would like to hear some comments about horn speakers. I would also like to hear about sealed vs. ported speakers. I haven't heard an AMT tweeter I liked. I would like to know if a speaker with higher sensitivity will sound better at low volume.
Some speakers sound lifeless at low volume. Thanks for the video.
Regarding resonance issues with AMT tweeters, do you believe the RAAL tweeters fall into that category Gene?
Randomly distributed materials help cure resonance problems in drivers, I got some old Pioneer paper woofers and the back side of the cones have sort of a crusty uneven surface to them and I notice they are better sounding than many modern synthetic material woofers.It's ot a new concept of course . For tweeters I don't think you can beat a good silk dome tweeter for sound quality though they have output limitations. The cone material will be unpleasant sounding if its too uniform across the surface of it and I think silk/paper drivers are the most accurate at least at low volumes. I design and build loudspeaker cabinets the simplest and best thing you can do for sound quality is simply to make them as solid as possible and brace the hell out of the insides to prevent the box from coloring the sound too much. I prefer sealed boxes with a wave guided tweeter horn it just gives the best sound not necessarily volume.
Paper is lighter so it has less inertia. Yeah, the backside of the Rythmik paper cones have stuff, looks like crud, on their backsides. Dave Fabricant, PhD, sells Rythmik subs on his site (ascendacoustics.com) and swears by the Rythmik dual 8 inch sealed sub with each paper woofer controlled by its own 300W servo amp. Says it's is the fastest sub, great articulation. Due to his endorsement I plan on getting the Rythmik dual 12 woofer (paper), model L22, to get more output (SPL) than the 8 inchers can provide. WRT tweeters, I think the Heil air motion tweeters are very good. My center channel uses one. Not too expensive. The ultimate is a plasma tweeter, In front, I got the Martin Logan ESL (electrostatics) and its pure joy.
soo is there a way to identify good speaker designs visually? If i haven't missed it, most of the detailed explanations were about re-branding and internal parts of a speaker
+Tieng Nguyen Not really. This is why you need to pay close attention to our product reviews where we take apart the speakers, and show and discuss the internals. Also, email your favorite loudspeaker company and inquire about the parts they use and their design philosophy. Research research research!
it depends on what you're gonna use it for and what kind of listener you are. if you're a serious listener and you're gonna use it for music then yes but it can only tell if that speaker meets the minimum requirement which is.... it has to be sealed. here's an explanation, bass reflex speakers are not good for music. they have poor transient response which is one of the most obvious characteristics. no matter how well designed, they just can't compete sealed design. they sound fancy, they sound like magic but trust me, that's not a good thing. the more miraculous a speaker sounds, the faster you get tired of it and want to "upgrade". what you want is something that sounds simple and neutral, not mediocre but simple which only sealed speakers can do. it will sound kinda [meh] at first. not very impressive, no sound signature, just dead simple but plays every genre of music equally well and you never get tired of it but it's the opposite, the more you listen to it the more you enjoy it that you totally forget about upgrading, it "grows on you" that's the reason why there are no off the shelf sealed speakers on the market, they want you to keep "upgrading" your system, constantly coming back for more. oh and this is not a matter of taste, everyone is the same when it comes to simple vs fancy sound. it's just that nobody realizes it. and don't ask me for a proof, i don't have any. if you really really want to know just try it yourself. just make sure you spend a significant amount of time with it, it takes time. most people turn away from sealed speakers because they don't have enough patience to let the speakers grow on them.
do you have a glossary for all the big words?
Why no reviews ever on Source Technologies speakers? John Sollecito builds some amazing speakers .
Funny that I had just been humming Karn Evil 9 when this video started.
is there any way for the average buyer to identify resonance problems? also how can you tell if a crossover is good without opening the speaker?
+George Smith Also adding, is there any way for the consumer to know what the resonance of a specific driver?
Is there a good online source that we can use for standard parts? Do we have to talk with the driver supplier? Or do we have to manually find it with a wave form generator and a mic?
+George Smith More investigating. Find out the filter slopes and parts used. The pic shown in the video as a bad crossover is unacceptable at any price as there is no filter on the woofer section at all allowing the stiff cone woofer to operate in its prominent break up mode. This was very audible in our listening tests.
@@l4ndst4nder Yes, check the spec sheets from the manufacturer. Also, cumulative spectral decay test/plot will reveal resonances.
What component in the speaker determines if a speaker is 2, 4 or 8 ohms? And what is the benefit of not making all speakers 2 ohms because they are more efficient? Thanks in advance
which one is better scanspeak vs focal vs micro precision vs bewith
please make a video on the different various class of power amp. i am still wondering why a high end Class Amp of say 10 - 25w can drive a >80w speakers and some say they sound the best. i thought that the higher the power the better?
+Han Siang Ng watts dos not directly mean more volume impedance plays a big part in spl (sound pressure level) in the spes for speakers look for spl at 1 metre this will give you good idea of efficency and therefore sound level do not fall into the fallacy that more watts means more sound not the case low efficent speaker will be quieter than high efficent speaker ,i am not a lover of valves as their efficency alters with time and thermionic emmisions class a sounds to my ears better ,my equipment yamaha 1040 aventage reciever,kef r 500 front speaker ,-r 200 centre kef q 800 dipole rears sound ? incredable!! i rate monitor audio & kef as some of best speakers you can buy and do not like american speakers like klipsh which i previously owned and found harsh and tiring to listen to over long periods
Hello guys a friend gave me a pair of home loud speakers he told me all the speakers were blown and when I did a ohm test on all three he was telling the truth .... the cabinets fits a 15" woofer a 5" mid range and a 3x7 horn tweeter what iis a good match for this setup
can you talk about what makes a good centre channel, and whats the difference between $2000 speakers and $6000 speakers?
I listend to B&W cm6 VS B&W 805 Both Book Shelf speakers very little change between them but the price
$4000
I'm glad that this video exists but I don't understand much of it.
AGREEED
You guys do a lot of responding here, I like that! I bought a Infinity ps210 sub, not knowing that there was a design flaw in the amp. It's a great sounding sub, but now the amp is just a paper weight...apparently the amps fail...but it's way out of warranty and I was wondering if it's even worth repairing....thanks
No it's not. Get the RSL Speedwoofer 10S for $399 shipped. It will crush the Infinity sub and be more reliable too.
thanks much!
Just thought I would throw in a note...I kept the speaker and cabinet and hooked it up to the Buttkicker amp and then ran a 8 level eq setup on the system. I was amazed at the depth. The Buttkicker is a 5Hz- 160Hz or so, but I let the amp do the eq. I am using the pre-outs of the amp to run 3 individual power amps for my 7.1 system, and yes, I used your suggestion and hooked up 2 subs, made all the difference...keep up the good suggestions.
Probably not. You can get a great sub from brand like Outlaw, HSU, or SVS for as little as $350 or so...
yes, if it's a great sounding sub of course
the most informative clip I have seen on you tube regarding " HI FI" THANX
Is it simple to replace your crossovers with better ones or do you need to know a lot about drivers, cabinets etc? How would you know if a crossovers roll off will suit your speakers?
Yes, just remove them entirely and use a processor for active band pass
You would need quite a bit of knowledge about crossovers and about measuring the speaker's performance
If possible, review the Infinity IRS-V speaker. Impressive size and driver quantities, but does it wipes off today's modern technology speakers? PS Audio is working on their speakers and claim they can be near the IRSV quality.
Anyway, very good explanation on speaker quality.
What's the difference of making audiophile speaker/driver and PA speaker/driver? Just wish good company like RBH can make speakers for live sound.
PA speakers are all about efficiency, and size is no object - completely different trade-offs from hifi
I've heard axiom speakers M22 to M80. The crossover sounds wrong mid to treble. There is a massive rolloff and a tweeter that attempts to compensate. Twin tweeters? Bad designs.
Close your eyes and hear Saul Goodman talking
Holy shit! It's identical, indeed lol
I have: YAMAHA BD-A 1040 blu-ray DENON PMA 1520 AE amp KLIPSCH RF 52 II towers My problem: This loose fine details such: thaler, cymbal, etc, from drums. I lesson too with cans AKG K712pro and this time all is there. What happens ? What solution I have ?
+Ace Golemi Cables are the LAST place to look for improving sound. Beyond a few $$$ / ft you are paying for nothing more than cosmetics and brand appeal. Focus more on speaker placement, room acoustics,and multi-sub sound field management.
a drivers compression is almost never discussed. that is a problem. that's why if your designing a speaker system and your going to listen at higher listening levels you want to factor that in your design. I favor multiple driver design for this reason. in designing enclosures for night clubs and touring, it is imperative to consider this when choosing drivers like RCF, 18 sound and b&c. there's another company that the name escapes my memory at this time but their drivers are centered around the idea of minimal power compression
+LIFT4POWER For those applications where volume is the main consideration compression tweeters and mids are used and almost always ported woofers to maximize sensitivity, the less work the drivers have to do the better but for a home system there are problems with fidelity with PA type designs so less efficient designs are better so you get a reasonable volume for a given input and more accurate reproduction
You are great guys. Gene you are the mastermind.
It's funny to hear this fuckin hard american accent, it always reminds me of western movies. I'm jus waiting for the guy on the right to spit some volume on the floor!
Greetings from Europe, keep up the good work, even your old videos are still relevant.
If you look at the JBL studio series of home loudspeakers thats the ideal to me, just excellent sounding and no gimmicks
Why do designed use 4 ohm drivers, when they are harder for some amps to power? I agree a quality amp shouldn't overheat, or unnecessarily clip into 4 ohms, but seems like 8 ohms would be most universally amp friendly
4 ohms will usually make a more efficient transducer, and amps that can give power to 4 ohms or less are getting more and more common
Just go find a vintage pair of Bozak speakers and sit back and enjoy.
The 'inserts' could be toned down, would rather watch the people, not static images.
Gene is so fuckin' smart!
In love me some Genee D! .. even though i kid! - secretly , i enjoy his videos.😁👌
.. but does anyone notice Gene looks like a professional Blowler , with those glasses and those tight ass polo shirts he wears !???
Lol! Couldn't resist Gene!
Not any good metalcone out there is just wrong. SEAS of Norway made the frist metalcone speaker in 1993 and have perfected it ever since.
There are more good loudspeaker manufacturers. Like scanspeak, vifa, peerless. Although SEAS has made a amazing DXT driver, that has really nice directivity measurements.
The more expensive the loudspeaker's internal wiring, the better they tend to sound. I find
The discussion is no where near what the title says....
Most good audio companies make a driver. Then when the cheap clones catch up in performance, they buy the cheap clones, then when that snake oil stops selling they make a new driver. That's how business works in all industries these days. Make something till china catches up then make something else.
my favorite is a defaning 4k peak. ha ha yuck.
What is one trying to say would one actually be talking about high level sound does one mean deafening ?
metal drivers sound tinny
Andrew Jones played the biggest joke on "high end" speaker designs ever with the Pioneer SP-BS 22's....I'm still laughing.
Identifying a good speaker requires a pair of ears and a brain........no more no less. Trust your own ears and be content with that. You really don't need anyone to tell you what you hear......
+Dean Singh The Pioneer AJ speakers are really good for their low asking price but let's be real. They have limitations and in no way compete with competently designed speakers in the $800/pair and up price range. Agreed about trusting your ears. Measurements only tell you so much. Listen for yourself and decide!
+Audioholics
Yes they do have their limitations, however, I have owned speakers brands like , Magnepan, Vandersteen, Paradigm, Golden Ear Technology, Tannoy, Wharfdale, Celestion, Spica, and more as well as different models of these brands. My point has more to do with value than limitation's due to size. None of those speakers I've owned some of which cost several thousand dollars supplied the bang for the buck the Pioneer's do. I enjoy your posts and subscribe via email.....
you say good crossover then show a picture of a 30 dollar crossover?????
YOUR MICROPHONE IS OUT OF PHASE
bla bla bla bla lalalalala
Baymax?
Sorry Juri, no one speaks your language
roguemodel That guy is speaking 7th grade language.
As soon as you said metal cone driver I’m outta here.
That's too bad. Progress can be frightening to those whose ideals are stuck in the past.
@@Audioholics At the turn of the century an old man said " automobile! why would I want one of them? All they are good for is scaring the horses"
$50,000 speaker? Is this a joke?
Kiumars Gurani you probably can't tell the difference in sound quality between it and a $500 speaker. it all scam.
You can definitely hear difference between 500$ and 5000$ loudspeakers. They also tend to measure differently. The question is, is it worth it?
@@anyimmichaelik You definitely can. If you have shit hearing then sure. It's the same argument for tvs. If you can't see the difference, then buy the cheap tv.