Danganronpa Is Its Plot: A Series Ludonarrative Analysis
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
- It's time for a class trial: we're taking Danganronpa's narrative and interactive design to the courtroom. Let's talk about meaningless choices and how they can potentially ruin a story.
By the way, if you haven't played the Danganronpa visual novel trilogy and are interested in checking them out, you may wanna stay away from this one. Don't scroll down to the comments, either: there may be some spoilers down there. But please come back when you're finished!
Timestamps:
0:00 - Choices in Storytelling
11:45 - Trigger Happy Havoc
20:40 - Goodbye Despair
27:34 - Killing Harmony
38:55 - Goodbye Danganronpa
(13)
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Some sources:
The cited Kodaka interview:
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@PostMesmeric video on Danganronpa V3's perjury mechanic: • Danganronpa V3 Analysi...
@craftsdwarf video on Danganronpa V3's ending:
• Closing the Case on Ne...
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#danganronpa #visualnovel #ludonarrative #videoessay - Ігри
Makoto did have ultimate good luck, that's why his execution he gets saved where Kyoko would've died. Nagito wasn't the only one who's luck was actually used, basically think back to all moments where Makoto should've died but didn't (ex. Chapter 1 framing, the masked person who tries killing Naegi in chapter 5 but is then saved by Kirigiri, etc)
Also, in the V3 anime, Junko seems to note how his luck seems to be "unpredictable" or something. I think I recall she tried to throw something at him, for him to slip and accidentally dodge it.
I know I'm 2 years late but just wanted to say this isn't exactly right. The masked person never tried to kill Makoto to begin with, I dont remember it exactly but it's explained in the last trial that Junko merely wanted Makoto to notice the masked attacker to create more false evidence, but the actually didn't plan to kill him there. So although it looks like it at first, Kyoko never 'saved' him. As for the ch 1 framing, that's mostly because of Sayaka's dying message and Kyoko being smart. The only thing you could make an argument for there is his bathroom door getting stuck, which was indeed a factor to help prove him innocent at first.
Thanks for coming to my ted talk
The reason Kyoko wasn't saved is because Makoto didn't know Alter Ego was still alive.
The whole bad ending just takes place in Makoto's imagination. If it had actually happened, or if Makoto had reason to believe Kyoko could be saved, he would've imagined her being saved.
yeah i think a lot of the confusion there comes from the fact that makoto and nagito's respective luck works differently, and there's a lot more weight placed on nagito's.
@@MaxMonadoAnother 2 years late, but this isn’t right either. Kyoko explained it well. Makoto was originally supposed to be killed, and then have Kyoko be framed as a killer. It was explained in Chapter 5 in the trash pit by Kyoko. The only reason Mukuros body was dragged out again was because of Kyoko protecting Makoto. Once Junko saw her plan failed, she switched the plan on the spot, making Makoto notice the mask so she can use it on Mukuros body. Using Mukuros body was a gamble, as the students could have figured out what was going on.
Also remember that Mukuros trial wasn’t supposed to be the trial that lend to the end of the killing game. Ultra Despair Girls explains there were supposed to be more motives, such as a Killing Game among Loved Ones, but it went unused.
This video has a criminally low view count. I love it and it deserves a lot more
Thank you so much!
I remembered Kodaka saying it didn't take place in the same universe...but I never considered the v3 audience to be the game players.
I really don’t see why V3’s ending being seen as the real world audience or the in game outside world audience makes much of a difference, DRV3 is a meta commentary on fandom culture and DR was the perfect series to use for it due to the fandoms obsession with sending death threats and shit.
It's so stupid to me how this is such a major talking point in the fandom, instead of something actually meaningful, all because this was never really made clear in the game itself.
*Flipping The Plot On It’s Head*
10:10 Rachel & Harvey Dent. SAVE RACHEL
11:07 _Ludonarrative Dissonance_
12:02 Ultimate Talents, Following his moral compass
14:14 Mukoro’s Murder
15:33 Wrong choices, Changing
17:30 Bad ending -> Back to reality
19:20 Hope vs Despair
*Daganronpa II*
20:30 Goodbye Despair
22:20 It’s A Game, To Cure Despair
22:48 VIRUS VIRUS VIRUS
23:32 Graduate or Repeat?
24:17 Shut Down The Simulation
25:19 Nagito, Emblem of Hope?
26:06 Chiaki tells him to believe in himself
*Daganronpa V3*
27:35 The *Player* is forced to Lie
28:57 Player-Character differences
31:28 Minigames
32:10 Reality vs Fiction
33:45 You have to lie to get the correct ending
34:14 All the characters lie, the story shows itself to be a lie. Simulation is used. Robots, Hidden Motives.
*All 3 Games Share Similarities*
35:20 Similarities across Games
35:39 The Cases Share Similarities
37:20 Crafting stories
38:55 The End
*The Final Case*
39:17 Makoto watches a show on his phone 📱
40:28 K1-Bo vs Monokuma
41:25 Re-Trial, Flashback Lights, Inconsistencies
42:03 Metacommentary
42:36 The Surface (Our World)
Sub level 1 (the “real” world)
Sub level 2 (world outside the academy, fictional world)
Sub level 2a (inside the academy)
45:12 Calling out the fans?
46:53 *A Story about Finding Purpose*
47:48 They know they are living a lie, and they sacrifice themselves
“The Audience” is not the same as the surface world audience
49:45 Confusion
Characters vs Players
Players have power over characters
51:15 The Claim
Artists need to use the tool of interactivity properly
52:57 After the video
Watched the whole thing and while I disagree with some points, overall this was a really good video that gave a new perspective to think about! Subbed
Thanks a lot for the kind words!
Speaking of choosing paths, danganronpas beta (distrust) was supposed to let you choose to who lives and who dies, i just wanna put that out there lol.
I disagree on a lot about what you said on V3, particularly the ending and how you feel about lies.
For one, lies as a replacement for memorizing statements in the first game is a clear improvement of the class trials. The memorizing statement thing's times of use were a bit unclear and at times didn't make sense. In the first particularly, I could recall a few instances where you could easily prove something without memorizing a statement. On top of this, the moments you could memorize statements was eventually overridden by other mechanics. Secondly, lying in this game is treated not as an unambiguously immoral act, but a means of finding the truth, reflecting the theme that even if something is a lie it can become the truth in a sense. Lies were also an interesting aspect of player interaction IMO because whenever there was a mandatory one, the game did hint on what to do, but if you were able to notice that a different track played whenever you could lie, then the player would be aware that if they couldn't figure out which truth bullet to use, lying could be used in its place.
Though I was gonna talk about the ending and lying only, I do want to mention that V3's first trial was much more emotionally gripping than the 1st trial of Trigger Happy Havoc. The game's subversion of expectations are obviously part of it, but other factors such as its the player we thought was the safest, that the culprit was, unlike Sayaka, nearly without choice given the conditions, and the immense guilt that the culprit feels. In other words, it is easier to create empathy in this case for the close person that dies and we the player realize it in a way that hurts the most. It's also worth noting that in a sense, the protagonist shift to Shuichi does show that we are carrying out the will of the first protagonist but in a different character, symbolically meaning that there is a way to interpret this as the protagonist's goals not changing, but only the vehicle.
As for the final trial, since I was talking about the protagonist thing, I'll touch on that again. The shift to Keebo is pretty clear since at this point in the game, Shuichi had decided to stop participating in this killing game the way the true mastermind of the killing game (not Shirogane, IMO, since she could have easily been flashback lighted herself into thinking she's the mastermind based on the prologue) had intended for everyone to do so. As for the shifts to Maki and Himiko, it is done as a means of showing Maki and Himiko no longer participating in the game. Though this could simply be done how it's been done before with Shuichi using some truth bullet to tell them to stop playing, though that in of itself is contradictory of the intent of this part of the game, so an alternative was done.
Secondly, about the whole the ending is a "fuck you" to the player thing, which you said wasn't the case, I didn't personally feel that when I played it. When I did play the game, even if it did at one point come across as that to some, it clearly wasn't so when Shuichi blatantly told us that "Fiction can change the world" and when he discussed how all the things he felt were real. On my FIRST playthrough, I did feel that despite the fact that the first two games were fiction, that it doesn't make any of the themes or feelings in them any less important, just as much as the things I felt while playing this game were not any less important because of Shirogane's insistence that fiction is meaningless and that nothing is important because our personalities were replaced. Even if the characters don't have their original personalities, regardless of what Shirogane says, the people they are now are real, even if the events in their past never happened. Those events are always going to have some meaning to them, and there is no reason to believe that everything was "scripted," since if everything was perfectly scripted, then the ending that happened would not occur in the first place. With this in mind, things such as Kaede desiring to play piano for Shuichi cannot be talked up as simply, "scripted," but a heartfelt desire that the Kaede Shuichi knew had.
Most importantly, on the topic of things that are fiction in some manner still being important, is how it reflects upon Kaede's death. During the 6th trial, Tsumugi makes an attempt at trying to make the past deaths, with an emphasis on Kaede's death, meaningless. Despite this, however, the game has "Clair de Lune" play twice in the trial, one when Shuichi is crumbling upon the realization of the role of fiction and questioning the meaning behind the deaths and the other when Shuichi chooses despair in the rebuttal showdown. The second of which, which is designed as an intensely emotional moment, uses the music associated with what is arguably the saddest death in the entire series, made even more tragic by the fact that Kaede's plan had failed and she wasn't the killer. The prior moment is more so to make us question whether or not a song like "Clair de Lune" should have any meaning to the player since the Kaede we knew was different than who she once was, which is inevitably contradicted when it plays once more. In other words, the game's themes reinforce that the first two games are important in the themes they present just as the feelings we had towards each character in V3 are important despite the fact each person has a fictional past.
One quick note about the argument armament; the reason why I felt it was effective and was still going against what Shirogane intended was the opponent: the audience. It isn't like the typical Danganronpa story where we fight the mastermind one last time to win. Instead, we fight the will of the audience that is watching this game, fighting there desire to see yet another showdown with an evil mastermind in the name of hope. Though we the player are still playing a game, we're not playing the killing game and are fighting to have no vote at all rather than fighting for a preferable option. Regardless of whether or not the players and the mastermind votes for nothing are irrelevant so long as the audience votes for hope, so it is necessary in this case to convince the audience to stop going along with the killing game.
Though I don't think this is the video's topic, I want to quickly state that my enjoyment of V3 was also in that it actually had a complicated situation with the antagonist. No matter how much Shirogane insisted she was just like Junko, she was ultimately unlike her. She didn't find joy in death and didn't embrace that despair, she instead feared for her life while failing to imitate Junko's last moments. It is even questionable whether or not she was a mastermind, as she acted differently in the prologue then in the main game, though if she were a mastermind or a member of Team Danganronpa, at least she has some kind of motive, which in this case is profit. Junko was just crazy because she was crazy; even Mukuro is a better character, though only with the help of Danganronpa IF.
I will state that part of my arguments for V3 could be chalked up to bias, as the message of fiction is important and in a sense real becomes incredibly strong when the most emotional death I've seen happen in a game was in V3 (Kaede). It was the first time I cried in a game in the first chapter (SDR2 made me cry at the end, though not of sadness, more so because after everything that happened, I wasn't entirely sure what to feel but I'm going on a tangent) and was capable of making me cry after the game. The day after I beat the game (technically same day since I finished it at 4:37 AM) I listened to Clair de Lune and just fucking broke down into tears as all the bullshit that happened is finally over and what remained of Kaede's, a fictional character, wish had been fulfilled. To this day, Clair de Lune is still capable of making me tear up, though not in the same way I was unloading when I listened to it after beating the game.
Despite my disagreements, I did enjoy the video and seeing a different perspective on V3 (which is still my favorite game in the series), though I did agree that chapter 4 was not nearly as good as the chapter 4 in SDR2. Most of what you said of the first two games was spot on, especially on the "Tell Kirigiri" illusion, though as someone who fucked up in trial 5 by pursuing the lie, I wasn't bothered by it much, though I see the case for removing the choice and it is probably the right thing.
Wow, thanks for the really insightful comment! You bring up a lot of interesting points about V3... I never even considered the possibility that Tsumugi could have been brainwashed too. As for the lying mechanic, a lot of people feel the same way you do. In the video itself there's a link to a video by PostMesmeric with nothing but praise for V3's lying mechanics, and V3 ended up being his game of the year. For me personally I found memorizing statements to be far less confusing than lying in V3, but our brains all work differently and I can definitely see how people might forget about memorization in the same way that I often forgot about perjury.
I also wonder whether my experience with Chapter 5 discolored my view on Chapter 6 to some degree. Maybe there's a correlation between "correctly" picking Kaito as the victim partway through Chapter 5 and having a positive view on Chapter 6. That'd be really interesting to figure out.
MML's Commentaries Well that could have something to do with chpt 5, since I thought Kokichi was in the exisal for most of the trial and when I replayed the trial for back routes I wasn't really bothered when I had to pick Kokichi as the one in the exisal.
About Tsumugi, it is a possibility that many people ignore, but should be considered given how much this game lies to you. If everyone's past is fabricated, then why not hers? The thing that was different between prologue and main game Tsumugi was the way they screamed. Perhaps in the prologue she was genuinely screaming and in the main game, where she is the "mastermind," she is performing a scream for show. When I first played the game, I tried to find out who the mastermind was by looking at whose clothes stayed the same, but none of them fit that bill. I thought Shuichi may have been the same, but after a close look it wasn't the case.
@@SomeGuyWhoHasAnUnoriginalName If one of the themes in V3 is that "Fiction can change the world", would the other theme also be that 'If a lie is a believable lie, it becomes the truth'?
I mean if you look at the first trial, this is apparently true.
Even relating this to the sixth trial, it makes the meta narrative even more effective in making a possible lie believable.
@@@MMLCommentaries
i would want to know your thoughts and opinions on danganronpa "beta " version known as DISTRUST
where the "dating sim" part of danganronpa had very direct effect on the outcomes of the killing game deciding who lives or dies i.
not much is known about the DISTRUST but i think it would make a interesting game.
L1LE1 “if a lie is a believable lie, it becomes the truth”. I feel like this is a great way to sum up v3 entirely, from the characters to the murder motives. All the characters were greatly impacted by their pasts, whether true or not, and it affected their future actions, etc.
For example, although it was a lil obvious who the killer was to me my favorite trial was the third one, for the reason being kirumi and ryomas motives for doing what they did. They both were pushed by their pasts to make a huge decision would cost their lives, but both pursued it for the sake of the future. If these are lies and they were able to change their futures and fates this much, isn’t it the truth? The truth of who they are, at least.
45:25 Is that why I never hated V3's ending? I experienced Danganronpa over the course of a year, and through UA-cam Let's Play. Is me not personally playing the visual novels (the interactive media) allow to see a layer and gamer wouldn't?
I experienced it in a similar way, and felt similarly as well, so I'd say that's a likely possibility! Obviously two people isn't a complete study, but I think there's a correlation in there for sure.
I played the game myself, and I really enjoyed V3, ending and all.
obviously this was 4 years ago, but i think that's the case for me too.
Same. The thing is though, I was kinda preaching the ending of V3 (both Shirogane’s and Saiharas’s sides) ever since I saw DR2. So I was absolutely *ecstatic* when the meta started. Just… I felt so validated there c’:
The only thing I never really liked is the part about the audience’s decision. Like… there’s *no way* the entire Internet would ever agree on something! And even if everyone *did* die with no votes? A lot of people would find it a cool twist and love the series even more. I know I did! So, like… I don’t think the plan was very realistic. Everything else though? Absolutely beautiful.
2 points about the bad ending/good ending in the first game.
1. it's pretty much agreed on by the general DR community that alter ego jumping in to save makoto is because of his luck skill, his luck skill plays an important role in a bunch of different areas of the game, e.g. broken door in chapter 1. so it's quite clear that it would be the reason for this.
2. It is also agreed that toko is not dead, simply the one taking the photo as they only have the one camera that needs someone to take the picture, and the only other pictures they have of themselves are the dead portraits in the school, so this is also not a plot hole.
That ending is actually quite well thought out, even down to how creepy it's meant to be, them having kids in the school despite not being able to leave shows exactly how far they have fallen and given up, accepting their school life forever, moving on as if nothing ever happened, trying to live a "normal" life inside of the school.
It is not well thought out since luck is not explained (and even if we had the explanation that we have, it is still a cover for the disgusting and convenient plot armor of that part) ah, and most obviously, that this ending really does not It exists because it was all Makoto's imagination, so that not only our decision had no weight (as practically all the "decisions" that do not force us to make one just because the "" "Avatar" "" does not let us choose the other). not that in the process, we will be made fun of in our faces, the danganronpa fandom has to be pretty stupid not to realize that the game itself is laughing and making fun of you.
@@MetaKnightho what are you even on about. if you don't get how luck works in Dr, it was hinted at heavily through the games. I'm sorry but if you still don't understand it and just think of it as plot armour then you have shown yourself to be the real dumbass here. " don't you get the game is laughing at you" riiiight, sure mate, feels like you just really don't understand danganronpa and it's types of humours, it's like saying "wHy Is danGaNroNPa trYInG To bE fUnNy tHEn dEpreSsINg, ThE tONe MakEs nO sENse At alL" while missing the whole point of danganronpa tone mixing and dark humor. The ending is much more a premonition. Yasuhiro predicts that ending in his early hang out events. So no it's not just imagination.
Drake Norr he isn't talking about in context of the games, he's talking in the context of the very first game. Even then, nagito's luck and makoto's luck are treated very differently. Makoto's is basically a parody of plot armor and crazy circumstance. It doesn't change the fact that alter ego jumping in to save makoto and not doing the same for kyoko screams plot armor anyway.
And I don't get how the games sense of humor has anything to do with this choice as it's not exactly portrayed as if there's an obvious answer. It's a legitimate fork in the road that conflicts with ideals you've been taught throughout the game. At the very least, there should have been a credits to show this as a choice. Otherwise, if their not gonna treat it as a genuine decision the player might make outside of a gag, it may as well not have been a choice at all.
Kodaka himself said that Toko spontaneously combusted in the bad ending; which is the reason that Byakuya looks happy.
As someone that like V3's ending, I will say that I liked it for its idea and what it was trying to achieve. But I would agree that it was poorly executed. One of the main reasons I think that the ending failed in separating the audience from the Sublevel is the photos of real-life people on the screens in the background after the reveal. Like come on, how is that not going to send the wrong message.
Something I notice in a LOT of analyses of Danganronpa, particularly of V3, is that people tend to forget the first section of V3's prologue. This section of the game makes no sense if we take the "audition videos" to be the truth, as fans who volunteered would be quite excited to be part of Team Danganronpa's 53rd Season, and not express fear or confusion like they all did before being hit with the "first memory" beam. The only time we saw this excitement from the characters' pregame selves was in that audition video, which could've very easily been faked if Team Danganronpa had the kind of technology to alter their memories or pull off the crazy executions we see.
The cast of DRV3 were victims, through and through, without question.
Watching my favourite video game series being talked about through your soft velvety analysis for an hour has scratched a very specific itch of mine.
Thank you so much, subscribed.
Thanks a lot, glad to have you aboard!
A bit confused as to how lying conflicts with the player/character in DRV3. Shuichi's intent always seemed to reach the truth no matter what because he is a detective, naturally the player should want to reach the truth as well, I think having that option there aligns both player and character together because it's about using the tools necessary to bring the rest of the class to the right conclusion. Many cases it seems implied that Shuichi is thinking ahead and has an idea and tries to push the discussion in that direction, and as players we finally get to lead a case instead of being dragged around by characters like Nagito and Kyoko so I always felt like I was in charge of leading the discussion especially with the options. Having to choose when to lie is also a very rare case which is why it's more in line with analyzing your options in the situation you're in to reach the truth.
As for the Kaito/Kokichi thing you said you were certain because Shuichi had his doubts earlier in the case, but then flip-flopped. That's it's because he realizes the way they've looked at the evidence up until that point it does point at Kaito being the victim, I believed it wasn't but the question was about where the evidence points and at the time there were no hard facts to point in the opposite direction. Maybe I'm misunderstanding and you meant that because Shuichi said "I can't look away from the truth" you understood it as "I have to lie here"? I interpreted it as him relying on his deduction reasoning from facts, I don't really think this an example of Ludonarrative.
This is just a bit of a nitpick on the case similarities you presented, I think the second case similarity being "the killer move the body" is a bit of a reach considering DR2s wasn't moved in the same aspect while moving bodies is core to other cases like DR1-3, DR2-3, DR2-4, DRV3-3. It's hard to pin a real similarity in that one because any that imply is so general you can apply them to a lot of the cases in the games.
DRV3s final case is a huge problem yeah, they definitely could've expressed the difference more I never really felt like I was the audience but I understand why other people might have felt that . I think part of the reason is the marketing outside of Japan. If you followed the games announcements and news closely then you'd see that this game was called the New danganronpa V3 and in interviews, Kodaka was expressing the original games would end with an anime and V3 was supposed to be an entirely new setting. Some people like me might have already known this and then felt bait and switched in chapter 5 but by the time it got to the final case I think knowing this allowed me to dissociate the audience from myself.
As for the switching characters, I thought it was because Shuichi had stopped playing and the others needed to "play" to stop playing, and ignoring the mini-games and then fighting with keebo felt right because you weren't playing the game but attempting to change reality at that point.
I like the video though, I really agreed on a lot of the points on 1 and 2 and some of the things about DRV3s cases and the whole "figuring out cases before the characters" bit, I'm not not to sure about the conclusion on DRV3 and it's ludonarrative.
Totally reasonable to disagree, haha, I know that there are a lot of people who view V3 in a very different light. Hopefully I can clear a few things up here:
-What I was trying to say wasn't that lying is some objectively bad thing, but rather that the reasons why Shuichi might decide to lie are 1) not clear enough and 2) probably different than the reasons the player may want to lie. Most of the instances where you are forced to lie in V3 could easily have had other solutions which didn't necessitate lying (with the last lie in Ch 5 being the only one I can think of). Often when I realized I had to lie in V3 it was more a moment of frustration for me than a moment of realization. The memorization mechanic from 1 and 2 felt more cohesive and stronger overall.
-I'm confused as to how picking Kokichi as the victim in Ch 5 is a lie. Like I said in the video, I was almost certain that Kaito was in the exisal for the entire case. Even if the characters were running under the assumption that Kaito was dead, that doesn't make that assumption true. At least from my view, the evidence you had up to that point in the case could back up either character being the victim. If anything, the correct choice in that question set is the real lie because Kaito isn't dead, even if Shuichi the character isn't aware of that yet. Maybe I'm missing something?
-I completely agree with you that some of the case similarities across entries were more of a stretch than others, and I completely agree that, of the bunch, Chapter 2 is the biggest stretch.
Thanks for watching and responding! Discussions like this are some of the greatest merits to making UA-cam videos.
@@MMLCommentaries the games calling it perjury matters IMO, because it's not a reversal of the truth, it's a reversal of the evidence and giving false testimony. Instead of building a solid case it's just bending evidence to fit a narrative he suspects to be true.
In the Koichi/Kaito situation, for example, it's a lie only because it's a reversal of all evidence you have on hand suggests.
@@matilyn_rf I disagree with that notion, however. I would argue that the evidence you have at the time could support either victim. The only evidence you have is the voice of the exisal and Kaito's coat, neither of which are definitive. Just because the discussion at the time suggests that Kaito was the victim doesn't mean that the evidence suggests that. I do agree with your point on the word "perjury" being a very deliberate choice.
a bunch of great points were made in the comment sections and the video itself
BEAUTIFUL
Thanks for the kind words!
5 years late, but this is easily one of the best videos I've watched about Danganronpa and it's storytelling. While I'm not sure if this comment will be seen and how you may feel now, I found a couple of your points about Goodbye Danganronpa to conflict with my own. While Kodaka had always had his themes of hope and despair, it was fairly obvious Danganronpa 1 and 2 were driven by the characters and the killing game. V3 coming as a soft reboot (or whatever they had called it) years later to officially close out the series, along with the way it was written made me feel like it was so much more than that. The emphasis of truth and lies, fiction and reality gave off such a drastic change compared to the previous two games being all about hope and despair. Chapter 6 while admittedly being quite hectic to the point of feeling sloppy at times, felt more like I was in the game than ever before. I know you broke down the layers and how we aren't actually representative of the audience in the game and one of the issues is that it feels like it does, especially initially. It felt like the metaphysical wall was completely smashed and I was being spoken to directly, like I was in the game itself in a way. To me this case was the first time I truly felt like I was in those same seats, feeling the same emotions as the characters. That's not to say I never resonated with them like in after the 5th trial in DR2 for example, but breaking the metaphysical wall, learning everything was fake, I truly related to the characters at that time. People hated thinking the other games were staged, asking "Why did we play then?" similarly to how the characters in V3 felt how everything was just a waste initially. After I was able to really digest it, the message made me realize why I loved the games in the first place, and why any sort of "retcon" of earlier entries didn't phase me. It felt like I was being directly spoken to in the thematic payoff of the final trial. Fiction is beautiful. Obviously, Danganronpa is just a story. Whether the previous entries "really happened" in the world of V3 shouldn't matter at all. We enjoyed those stories and characters enough to bring us back here. They were always fictional stories, but the impact they left on us people was real. Obviously we aren't all cheering for 16 high schoolers to die in a killing game, but the breakdown of that wall between the consumer and that "real world" makes that message land with much more impact, at least for me personally. And I really can't say if it would hit the exact same if the games weren't interactive, trying to make me feel like I was part of the story. I do agree with it not being executed as best as it should, and maybe there really isn't a way to execute it like that but for what it is, I prefer it this way. Thanks for the video man.
I know I'm late to the party, but I just finished watching my favorite streamer play D1, D2, and DV3 and was looking for some analysis on the games when I found your video. I'm about halfway in and just wanted to say you deserve way more subs than you have! Your editing is really good and I'm enjoying your breakdown of the game narrative. Will definitely be checking out your other videos :)
Thank you so much! That means a lot to me. Hope you enjoy my other stuff!
This video is excellent, i agree with everything you've said especially why V3 ending felt flat. BUT if i can nitpick one thing, i didn't find the bad ending in the 5th trial a mocking to the players who chose it, for me it was just a funny lengthy easter egg. I think this would've been more clear if they never had presented that "Tell her/Don't tell her" choice in the 4th chapter, which i never liked it tbh.
Wonderfully made, thoughtful video! This deserves so many more views
Okay this seems interesting but I'mma keep a log of my major complaints as I go:
-I really disagree with your analysis of chapters 5 in DR1. The purpose of chapter 5 as a narrative tool is to cement the shift that started in chapter 4: that of "player vs player" to "player vs game." In chapter 4, the mutual distrust built up the by students, fanned by Monokuma's antics, drove Sakura to kill herself and four of the six survivors to enter the trial with the intention of escaping as the blackened. The resolution stresses that Monokuma ultimately failed to drive the students into despair, and that they refuse to suspect each other. Chapter 5 puts that to the test. The crux of the trial is Makoto refusing to simply go along with the intended format of the class trial. However, if Makoto just didn't implicate Kirigiri, THAT would result in dissonance, as the player wouldn't have learned the same lesson that Makoto did. The player has to experience the consequences of simply adhering to the pattern. Hence the bad ending. It realigns the player and Makoto's logic.
-While your criticism of chapter 4 and 5 of V3 is not unwarranted on its face, again, I feel you missed the point of that chapter. The sole purpose of chapter 4 is to make the player DESPISE Kokichi Oma. He orchestrated the murder, investigation, and trial in a manner that caused the maximum amount of pain to all involved. He leads you by the nose during the investigation phase and forces you to completely crush Kaito and Gonta with the truth. The fact that a lot of aspects about the trial are obvious on its face serve that point, because those things vindicate Kokichi at the expense of everyone else. It shouldn't feel good to solve chapter 4's mystery. This repeats in chapter 5, which is Kokichi's piece de resistance. The entire scenario was crafted to be unsolvable by Kokichi, but he failed because it was just a plotline cooked up by the in-universe writers of Danganronpa. The player is forced to experience all of Kaito and Kokichi's effort being reduced to meaninglessness, priming them for the discovery that the entire story was just crafted fiction in chapter 6.
-As I understand it, your primary critique of V3's chapter 6 was that it didn't do enough to separate the "real audience" from the player. I would disagree, but the actual controversy amongst players in response to this ending kind of proves me wrong, some people felt that the game was essentially punishing them for liking it. I had a different experience. It did enough for me. The I the message I received from chapter 6 was this: let Danganronpa end. I feel this was communicated effectively. This is because the moment when Tsumugi really loses control isn't when the the characters realize everything was fiction. That was the plan. Everything was going according to plan until the player lost control of Kibo. For the majority of the game, the "player" and the "audience" were separate entities. Then, for a brief moment, they're reunited as Kibo to do the traditional danganronpa stuff, to inspire hope. We shoot and stab the other characters with the audience's hope. All according to plan. Until Kibo perjures hope. The player must do that. The player rejects hope, and is thereby split from the audience. As such, they are returned to Shuichi, and then to all the other characters. The characters do choose to end the killing game, but they do so because of their experiences in the game. So it's not that their experience was meaningless, and therefore, the player's experience wasn't meaningless. After that, there are two conflicts: the player vs Team Danganronpa and the player vs the audience. These are two fundamentally different conflicts that require two methods of resolution. You have to reject Team Danganronpa's bad faith attempts to artificially extend the class trial, hence why you must not play. But the audience, in good faith, wants the game to continue. That's why you have to play. To meet them in good faith and to show them that the ending is meaningful and necessary. From this, I came to the conclusion that the audience did not represent the player, it represented the player's negative instincts toward Danganronpa. Let's go back to DR1. It's not subtle that the game is about the anxieties of leaving high school, and choosing hope for the future over despair is a metaphor for not being afraid to enter adult life. You linked the craftsdwarf vid, you know what I'm talking about. But the thing about that moral is that it only has meaning if hope wins over despair. If you choose to make the conflict continue, you're not actually growing up. You're just telling yourself you're ready to grow up. That's why the victory against Kibo is meaningful, because there's real finality to it. This is what I took from it, and as a college freshman in 20-fuckin-20, it resonated HARD with me. But the thing is, because of how reliant V3's ending is on player reaction, that kinda makes how good the ending is dependent on the player. So I can put it in my top 3 video game stories of all time, and someone else can think it's the worst thing ever, and both reactions are equally as objective. So...do I even disagree with you on this? I dunno.
Thank you MML's Commentaries, Very Cool!
the production and quality of this video is crazy! From the beginning to the end it was super engaging and entertaining (as well as a great analysis). amazing work, endless kudos!!!
really good video man! you officially got my subscription. v3 is my personal favorite, which includes the ending, but your points made sense
Old but underrated as hell!! I love this entire breakdown of the game... It deserves so much views than it already has π_π 💖💖💖✨
Wow, that ending line was beautiful.
In all honesty i watched this cuz I wanted to know how to write like Danganronpa. But now i have an external internal spiritual crisis.
Thank you
Criminally underrated video. I see the game in a different light now, thanks!
Ok, it seems that it falls on me to defend the bad ending choice in dr1, as I think it is, in fact, the crucial turning moment of the entire game, and it was, and is, imperative that it should be there in order for dr1 (my personal favourite of the 3, though I do acknowledge the other 2 are indeed technically superior in many ways, the "spirit" of
the 1st one is the one that's stuck with me the most, by far) to work.
So, the way I experienced it is that, given that it would not be possible to predict that Alter Ego would interfere, the stakes and consequences are clear cut: Pursue the lie, Kyoko dies. Let it go, Makoto dies. "Run away" was put there intentionally, so that the user will choose it in hopes of pursuing a third option, only to be shut down and mildly scolded by the game, letting them know, that no, there is no easy way out of this one. If that option hadn't been there I think the gravity of the situation would have been lost on many players.
Now then, thematically speaking, whereas Makoto, being such a cinnamon roll is up to now the representative of goodwill (especially after Chihiro's and Sakura's deaths, the only other characters who could stake that claim), Kyoko instead represents fighting spirit. Throughout the game it was her who was spearheading the fight against the mastermind, the only one who was clearly not afraid of them, and often acted outside their jurisdiction and rules.
Looking at the choice this way, what you're asked is to stomp out the flame of the oppressed in order to adhere to a softened version of the rules of the mastermind, or sacrifice yourself, valiantly, as the final casualty that seals victory in the war against the mastermind. So, in that understanding, it is fairly uncontroversial what the user would choose.
Whereas, Makoto himself, as I saw him, was kinda sorta developing a, uh... thing... with Kyoko (I mean they were attached in the very least, even if you don't ship it), and I think it would be pretty in character for Makoto to choose to sacrifice himself for someone he loves (I mean, he is basically the Jesus of DR), so I do not think there's a dissonance.
The reason the choice has to be there is because any message about determination, rebellion, and actively fighting against despair would be severely undercut if you were going to experience it passively. This is a larger truth of life, that you cannot be forced or coerced into fighting; You have to choose it yourself, resolute and steadfast.
For those who chose the right choice on their blind playthrough (such as me, but I know it's not just me) this marks the turning point, from the, frankly, crushing doom and gloom despair of ch5 (seriously, just thinking about it is nauseating), onwards to to the light of hope, made 100 times stronger by the fact that we actively chose it; If one is in that mindset, essentially, and is predisposed to making the right choice, then, it near certain that they would be fully immersed in the game in its climax, that starts exactly there and lasts all the way to the end (and the beautiful end credits song saisei -rebuild- sung by goddess Megumi Ogata that I honestly can't listen to without crying, and I almost never cry). Whereas, if they're predisposed to making the wrong choice, they're made to understood Kyoko's (by the way, can you tell she is my bestgrill already?) thematic significance, by being shown what everyone else, including Makoto, ends up as: Meek and timid cowards who have surrendered completely to the mastermind, all their hope and spark gone out of them, until they can't even bring themselves to be sad about their subjugation. There's a reason this image is so goddamn cursed, it shows these survivors, once strong spirits beaten and defeated so crushingly that they cannot even realise their defeat anymore. It's pathetic, miserable, and, as someone who was and is still struggling with clinical depression, way too creepily reminiscent of the most awful, and shameful moments of my past that I have sworn to myself to never ever repeat.
Maudlin nonsense aside, if you think about it logistically, this choice is actually a clever trick that optimises the user's engagement for the emotional peak by filtering out those who aren't fully in the zone yet until they get it... Well, in theory, anyway, in practice I might imagine it is quite likely that many would, after being scolded with the bad ending, not think through its meaning, and without consideration push the other button; But I'm not sure how much of the game is to be blamed in this case rather than the audience, I mean, if one is so insistent on mindless button-mashing, one could be just as easily dissatisfied with Ace Attorney, or any detective game really.
Frankly, mindlessly button-mashing through a story sequence in a game that is clearly story-based is self-defeating and disrespectful to the gamemakers. If you're not trying to engage with the game on its level, why play it all?
Wow. This video is PHENOMENAL. Your points are all wrapped up in a nice bow at the end!
Thank you so much!
@@MMLCommentaries No, thank you :)
The reason kyoko wouldn't have been saved by alter ego was because unlike kyoko, makoto was the ultimate lucky student
That might be part of it, but personally, I think there's more to it. Out of all the students to interact with Alter Ego, Makoto is the only one to call him a friend and treat him with care and respect. The rest, even Kyoko, treat Alter Ego as a tool to satisfy their various needs and desires. But Makoto goes out of his way to be kind to Alter Ego, and I think that played a big part in how he was able to muster up the strength to save Makoto. He wasn't just doing it for anyone, he was doing it for his best friend.
The sublevel 1 world could be the world of Danganronpa 1 & 3, where people in that world researched on the killing games and created the V3 "reality TV show" (of their world, as mentioned by the Makoto boy) as pure entertainment. By the time V3 is aired in their world, the war between hope and despair has likely ended already (as the peaceful world mentioned by Tsumugi) or else the show has no where to air.
I've also noticed how the Makoto boy referred V3 as a TV show while we refer to it as a video game/visual novel. The TV show is produced by Team Danganronpa exists in their world instead of Spike Chunsoft in our world. This is another proof to differentiate the in-game sublevel 1 world from our real surface world. If the sublevel 1 world treats all Danganronpa 1 to V3 as TV shows, Team Danganronpa might have lied to the world by claiming the happenings of 1 to 3 (the war between hope and despair) to be a fictional TV show, so that the craziness of hope and despair would be cause the events of 1 (despair of Junko) and 3 (hope of Ryota Mitarai) again.
All very true things!
Watching snippets of this before delving back into my playthrough of V3 and I find it really interesting that Goodbye Despair is ostensibly a complete inversion of THH, right down to the individual characterizations and themes. Awesome video
this is???? so underrated???? wtf this is excellent why doesn’t this have more views this was an amazing watch ❤️
So excited to see this! I have to play or watch the 2nd and 3rd games first, but once I’m done, I’ll head right on over here! :D
Excited for a Danganronpa video I’ve never seen!
This is an excellent video that made sense of why I feel that the series peaked with its second entry. Kudos to you for being able to put into words what I wasn't able to!
Thank you so so much!
Love this and completely agree with the V3 analysis.
Danganronpa 2 is a fake world within a fake world within a fake world within a fake world
this is a hello good video
like, as someone who doesn’t freaking know what the hecksa danganropa, your descriptions of the cases have enough context without bogging the whole video down.
also your dog carried this video ahahaha WOOF WOOF GOOD BOY
Buddy is a really good boy
i honestly both love and hate v3's ending. loved it for the big mindfuck it gave me and such a weird unique plot twist (i love when stuff gets meta haha), hated it for all the damn plot holes and like you mentioned in the video, the weird choices and the overall confusion. even though kodaka said he wants to take a break from DR or let someone else take over, i seriously hope they dont just put that mindfuck of an ending behind because they really gotta address the inconsistencies in it lmao plus im sure most DR fans aren't satisfied with it like they were with the first 2 games' endings which both wrapped them up very nicely. not to mention that it has extremely little to do with the hopes peak arc and in v3, kodaka already created a world and setting that mightve been too big and ambitious for its own good. i'd probably 100% hate the ending if they just decided to leave it at that but i have hope (no pun intended) that the DR team will try to expand on it
To be honest, I don't know how they could explain it all or where they would even start to try to explain it all. For the most part, I think I understand the intended sequence of events... it's more that the gameplay itself doesn't make sense for that plot thread. I'm interested to see what comes next out of Danganronpa.
danganronpa and ace attorney are both some of my favorite video game series and this analysis was great i'll do a review on this video soon if i decide to do one
if tsumugi is lying it means everyone lives
This is so cool :0 I have to finish v3 before watching the last part tho lol
i was not expecting the cellar theme from tboi rebirth to play during the batman part
Lol I forgot I did that
I do gotta say your list of the “format” of the cases is a bit stretched.
Case 1 isn’t always directly an ally, both the victim and killer weren’t particularly close to Hinata, and you could say Komaeda since he was orchestrating it, but he was more indirectly involved then directly.
Case 2 - Danganronpa 2 again, killer didn’t move the body besides from the middle of the room to against the door, I wouldn’t call that a different location
Case 3 - the double murder aspect is true, but the locked room one isn’t. No rooms were locked in D1 for case 3 besides technically if you go to the art room slightly early, but that wasn’t much of a factor in the trial.
Case 4- D1 was in a very familiar setting, especially since the rec room played a role in the last case as well since Celeste was hit there. This one was the locked room mystery that you said applies more to case 3
Case 5 and 6 you’re on about tho
The fact that many of these different cases are in dr2 shows how different it is to the first in comparison to how different V3 is compared to either. I would make the category more like this:
Case 1: a seemingly important character is suddenly murdered.
Case 2: the motive revolves around the killer or victims secret that is explained in the trial.
Case 3: double murder, and the culprit is relatively obvious in more ways than a single piece of evidence.
Case 4; big strong character dies and typically does it for the sake of others. (Or at least think they did in v3's case)
5 and 6 are basically the same.
@@lukebytes5366 that list I agree with, the big strong character in case 4 especially was rather shocking to realize since it’s literally Sakura, Nekomaru, and then Gonta was the killer not the victim but he felt like a victim so it’s okay. The 2nd I’d say is true too since it’s been Chihiro’s secret, Peko and Fuyuhiko’s secret (their background I don’t really count the serial killer thing), and secret prime minister Kirumi. I like your take on this man
TOP TIER VIDEO
35:25 I see you've fallen for Celeste's lies (I'm just kidding, but seriously she IS native to Japan.)
Okay have not watched the entire vid but im gonna have to disagree on the fact that the bad ending in chapter 5 is something most people will get. As you say earlier in the video kyoko is set up to be a very loved character you want to help as a person. Its the whole reason most people will get the sakura thing wrong. You are supposed to like kyoko and so when she herself says she’s being set up you are inclined to believe her. (As an aside the reason toko does not get her trial is that she was not killed but died theough some other natural cause as makoto hinself says there where no more killings.) i also think you take using hope as a piece of evidence out of context here. Makoto is not litteraly contradicting something or objecting to a false statement with hope as the basis of his arguement. he’s just telling his friends not to despair and telling junko he will never give up and a hope truth bullet is just the only way this can be incorperated into gameplay (heck to illustrate this change makoto’s voicelines “no thats wrong” and “this should prove it” are changed into “dont lose hope now!” And “hope keeps on going”. Also i think its unfair that you dont mention the fact that 2-6 also has a 3 way choice that only gives you a dialoge box if anwserd wrong that i personally think is easier to get wrong if you are completley blind.
Honestly i severly disagree with your analyses of the lie system. First of all the comparison that lies are a single choice based split is kinda unfair. Unless you know the musical que the game never tells you if an optional lie is available amd only ever informs you if you HAVE to lie to progress the case. Theres a reason optional lies are called back routes and that reason is that there easter eggs you will only find if you are looking for them and willingly break the usal progression. I also find the statement that shuichi whould only ever lie 2-3 times per trial considering there are never more then 3 points in a single trial where it is possible to lie (trial 1 has 1 optional 1 mandatory trial 6 has 0 optional and 1 mandatory and all other cases have have 2 optional and 1 mandatory.) Also you say in this video that everybody buys into your lies but kokichi always calls you out and just lets it slide because he’s kokichi he legit says “you say you heard a noise? Well i hear a load of BS” after a optional lie in chapter 2. ( also mind mine is the worst mini game in the series IMO but thats just an opinion). Also i think that shuichi saying is that really you is not as much of a giveaway as it is. Any player that gets that must have also caught on to even the more obscure hints at lying being the answer so your points dont complement each other very well. Although i see your point on the kokichi VS kaito option you are asked to look at the story the evidence tells and so far the only evidence that really pointed to the victim is the video and the clothing stuck under the press both of which point to kaito as the victim. Also seeing how the at this point the exisals motivation is making you believe kaito is inside the exisal the context also points to apposing them and i honestly believe that the only reason you took the revealing to truth line as it being ouma is because you already where convinced its ouma. And im sorry but “the killer moved the body” is way to generic in murder mystery’s that tying it to cases feeling like inferior rip offs feels wrong. The body is also moved in 1-3 2-3 3-4 and (if you wanna get really techincal ) 1-5. On top of it just being a commen trope in murder mystery the motive for moving the is always vastley diffrent. Kirumi and gonta did it to get an allibi mikan and celeste did it to throw of the time of death (mind you these are both case 3’s going to show how this arguement works as well for goodbye despair as it does for this game). For junko moving the corpse was the entire reason the class trial was kicked of in the first place and mondo was straight up just paying respect even argueably dooming themself in the process. Also i dont think comparing the case 4 of 2 and 3. Not only are the way there locations differ completley separate but i for one found the fact that the world loops at the middel instead of the so called edges alot trickier of a concept then the houses being ontop of each other
Providing links to counter points? NANI?!!!!!
Great video as always my dude!
Thanks a lot! Always good to see the greatest username on all of UA-cam show up and support the show!
Honestly I would rather ride hxh’s d than some of the other shounen shows out there *cough* *cough* bnha
An hour long vid that's cool.
as impressive as this video is, and as much as i appreciate a semi-academic take on danganronpa, the one thing on my mind is finding out that the hamster was fake. i'm so glad you clarified that in the credits, i was getting worried!
Kinda lost me by the V3 segment but I respect the work put in nonetheless
This is an extremely good analysis. I didn’t even agree with some of the things you said but it didn’t even matter this video is fantastic. 17K after 3 years? Fucking bullshit amazing job
Tbh I despised the amount of times makoto just blatantly chose to ignore the moments I, the player, was desperate to investigate
Respect.
Man, I absolutely love this analysis! Have you ever played the Zero Escape series? I'd love to see your thoughts on that but also I hope your following the new company that Kodaka formed with the creator of the Zero Escape series! (TooKyo Games)
The Zero Escape games are on my list of things i need to play. I'm just a busy boi with not a lot of free time!
@@MMLCommentaries The games aren't perfect, but they are extremely incredible and really push the boundaries of what a video game can do. I wrote an entire essay just on 999's character development alone
39:32 just realised this. Makoto means Truth further pushing at the Truth revealed here.
Yep! I just realized this myself lol
I played Danganrompa V3 for one or two hours because I finished that platformer mini-game.
h o w
I haven't played DGR2 or DGR3 yet, so I'll save your video for later! (sorry)
You're doing the right thing, my man. If you're curious, though, you can probably go about 20-30 mins in with no major plot spoilers for DR2 or DRV3 👍 actually now that I mention that I'll update the description
FREAKINF 21 I ASSUME
When I first got that clip from Liam I almost died
What took so long for a new video jeez
This video took over 250 hours to make in sheer production time, haha. I basically made a movie 😅I promise, the next one won't take nearly as long!
Interesting video, but it is still a shame that another youtuber grossly fails to describe or understand Ludonarrative Dissonance. LD is supposed to be a conflict between the narrative told by the story compared to the narrative told by the gameplay. This means it does not have anything to do with Player/Character wants, but a disconnect between story and gameplay that give off conflicting tones.
I agree, people apply the term "ludonarrative dissonance" to a lot of things that just don't have to do with the term's meaning at all. That said, I would argue that the definition you just gave has a lot to do with player/character motivation. The narrative told by gameplay is something that is, by its very nature, player-driven; and the narrative told in the plot is something inherently character-driven. I think that gameplay actively incentivising something that the characters of Danganronpa wouldn't do fits that definition like a glove; even if I perhaps didn't explain what ludonarrative dissonance actually is as well as I could in the video itself.
You bring up a really good point, though. Someone could use the information I gave in this video about ludonarrative dissonance and then apply it to something that has nothing to do with ludonarrative whatsoever. I definitely could have done that better in hindsight. Thanks for the input, and I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
i love how you use your dog as the hero
edit: nitpicking a lil bit, but celestia is native to japan, she just pretends like she isn't
Great video. Couldn't agree more about the V3 ending. Subbed
TLDR: I believe that the first 3 games and anime are true events in V3 and that it's Tsumugi's words that are lying to you, not the game. Largely due to the first 30 minutes of the game (and other small moments peppered throughout) vs what Tsumugi says and shows at the end.
I have to say that in my interpretation of the truths and lies are radically different then yours and I think I have the evidence to back it up. You believed that the videos shown in the final trial of the characters knowing of Danganronpa and wanting to participate to be true, but that runs entirely against the first ~30 minutes of the game. And given the fact that the games shows that they can make memories that are entirely fictional, it stands to reason they could fake said interview videos.
In it, all but Rantaro and eventually Kaede don't know of Danganronpa and neither of the two (nor anyone else) act like they want to be there. The Monokubs also mention the Ultimate Hunts and how those students were forced (or possibly volunteered) to forget the fact that they are ultimates as a way to protect themselves from these hunts. It all ends when the Monokubs find out that they messed up and were meant to have them remember their talents while forgetting details of the real world so the lie of the Gofer project can act as motives (I like to think that the Gofer project is real, but instead of being the space ship method, it's the forget the ultimate talents method). After the memory wipe/talent remembrance, the 16 students are reset in the exact positions they were so they could start the V3 season properly. There's no reason for some of these details to run against what Tsumugi is telling/showing them at the final trial unless she is lying. These lies would mean the order of things at the beginning of the game to go like this: 1. Take 16 Danganronpa enthusiasts and make them forget about Danganronpa and run the beginning of the show. 2. For some reason claim that they messed up by forgetting to reinstall the memories of being ultimates/wipe the details of Danganronpa from their minds. 3. Restart the show the exact same way with characters acting extremely similarly to their previous iteration except with more references and reliance to their respective talents. I don't believe it makes sense for their pre-talent (remembering talent w/e) to act this way and I don't believe it to be a weird preview to the show either.
There are other little things that suggest the idea that Tsumugi's videos at the end were faked as a plot twist to make the cast feel despair (and then overcome it cuz that's what the outside world likes to see). I should mention that this outside world is the in universe world of D1, D2, DUDG, and the anime and it is on the mend from the The Worst, Most Despair-inducing Incident in the History of Mankind from those events. Given that this is season 53 (that or the number of seasons is also a lie), a large amount of time would have passed between those prior events and V3, suggesting that the Future Foundation is making strides in starting to steer the world from despair, however there appears to be a big enough faction that hold to despair as to resort to catching and killing Ultimates by way of forcing them to play in the killing game they dubbed as Danganronpa.
There are other little things that suggest the idea that Tsumugi's videos at the end were faked as a plot twist to make the cast feel despair (and then overcome it cuz that's what the outside world likes to see). After the first trial we are shown 16 portraits at a funeral with two people lamenting over their deaths, 15 are censored to be blank, but the one of Kaede has her in her Ultimate attire, suggesting that this is how she would be remembered by these people outside the game, and that her 'talentless' student self was not the true her. The two talking theorize that despite their deaths/disappearances being officially described as accidents, they theorized that it was instead 'that group,' referencing the participators of the Ultimate Hunts. At the end of another chapter (and again fully when they find the Ultimate Survivor's Lab), Rantaro states that he chose to participate in this game and he means to win it by means of ending it. He doesn't say he wanted to do so or that he means to do so by killing. And it seems odd to me that he was in his ultimate attire, would they not restore the history/personality of the former Rantaro to make the decision to participate again? Also it was stated that there were two survivors, suggesting that they either chose not to participate or was someone else in V3 (possibly Tsumugi). Tsumugi also claims that her cospox triggers when she dresses as someone who isn't fictional, and that either means she faked it when dressing as Kaede, or her definition of 'fictional' means people that do not exist in the at that point in time, which would allow her to dress as people as they were decades ago.
The biggest hint comes at the very end of the game when Tsumugi lets slip that her iteration of Danganronpa was a near flawless copy, making her the cosplaycat criminal. Shuichi makes a note of this remark and brings it up after then credits. This happens in response to Maki claiming that the outside world might be just as Tsumugi had described, a place with no violence or despair, to which Shuichi suggesting that it might not be so, given Tsumugi's last words. Tsumugi's depiction of the world also goes directly against Kaede's brief comment at the beginning of the game when she was kidnapped and no one came to help her, despite her calls for help. "Everyone pretended like nothing happened... It made me think how rotten the world is..." Which again makes me wonder why they would wipe the memory of a willing participant, inject the memories of being kidnapped, and then wipe those memories right away when restoring the talents. It seems like extra steps to no one's benefit, as if people on the outside world were to witness it, it would break immersion.
I think the big ending is that the characters decided to do everything they could despite being told that they were fictional and have nowhere to return to. To act selflessly and make a world a less corrupt place despite them being told they have no place in it; no history, no family, no home etc. While believing that they were fictional, they chose to believe in the power that fiction can change the world. And n this display people who were aware of and watching the show for enjoyment changed their opinion on the whole of Team Danganronpa and it's methods of inducing despair to see hope overcome it again and again at the suffering of these characters. Even though these were supposedly fictional characters, which I'm not sure if the outside world was entirely composed of people who believed the characters were fictional, people who liked to watch ultimates suffer, or a mixture of both. In this ending they used a supposed lie, a lie they fully believed in (until Tsumugi's final words after the trial) to reach the truth, and in the end the thing they believed to be a lie became the truth, they did have a place in the world. But that isn't what was most important, what was most important was they did this while believing they were fiction and fiction's power over reality.
I get that this may be against common belief and isn't even what the wiki describes as true. And I believe that Kodaka has said it happened one way or the other on purpose (I think that's still true, unsure). But there are too many bits that make less sense to me and would be the game lying to me rather than Tsumugi's machinations.
>I typed WAY more than I thought I was going to and don't have time to proof read it too closely, please be gentle for any grammar/spelling issues lol
EDIT: Also I liked the video and I learned a lot from it, it was only the ending of V3 that I felt compelled to share my perspective on. Thanks!
Whats the back ground music around 11:33
It's from Iggy's Reckin' Balls on the N64! ua-cam.com/video/TklD0YCrljw/v-deo.html
@@MMLCommentaries thanks
I’m late enough to tell y’all danganronpa 4 is coming out
Sorry it made sense to me considering what kyoko said during the class trail. Never picked the option to uncover the lie. So idk what the heck you are talking about unless you are venting for picking that option.
I'm moreso saying that the option shouldn't exist because anyone who picks it is only going to get more confused. I definitely agree with you that most people aren't picking that option, though.
35:28 Really?
I kinda wish V3 was in canon with the Megaman series just so we could learn that K1-Bo’s “inner voice” was just Sigma trying to infect him. I don’t know why I brought this up but there you go.
Really great video overall, but I have to disagree with it being unclear when to use perjuries. *Every* time where it's required to lie, the game does indeed spell it out for you. Even if the inner monologue before the non stop debate from Shuichi goed over your head, the game will give you another hint you need to lie after everyone finished talking and Shuichi speaks to himself. If it's still not clear after that I don't know what to tell you.
Not trying to be disrespectful or anything, just throwing my take out there
I'm coming at this as someone who enjoyed and defends the ending of V3. Indeed, V3 is my favorite in the series by a landslide. I've thought about the ending a bunch, and had read a bunch of analysis pieces shortly after beating the game, and I really appreciate the messages and metanarrative. So when you started listing off rhetorical questions at 49:47, to a V3 fanboy sure, I had answers prepared for every question.
But that's an important point -- I have answers after fanboying for so long. I was just as confused as everyone on my first playthrough, wondering how much I was meant to identify with the ingame audience. When you contrast this with the other Case 6s, 2-6 really did a thorough job of explaining the lore and the options and everything. And 1-6 was only confusing in questions like "how could the world possibly end up like that", points that the author (via Junko) lampshaded and explicitly told you to ignore.
So you can look at how impactful a story is after you've sat on it and reflected for hours/days/months. But there's something to be said for a story that conveys its message clearly to nearly all players on the *first* playthrough.
Bandersnatch who
pretty good video but i disagree with practically everything you said about v3
Personally I hated the second game while I loved the 3rd game. I thought the second game was leading up to something big the whole game. After chapter 5 I was very excited to see what’s next. At first I thought hajima was dreaming but right around the part when he talked to alter ego I died of laughter and lost all motivation to continue and I reluctantly finished it. I could see how it was misunderstood the ending but suchi plight at the end was clearly directed at the people. It shows their reactions as well and there uncaring attitude. When you were switching between characters suchi was trying to convince everyone that they personally could reject the game and society itself. I found it very heart warming and capped off suchi character arc amazingly he learned to not be afraid of the truth not only to imbrace it but unlike the suchi from the beginning where he would turtle up this suchi inspired by all the people who had fought for him to get this far rejected the world and set his own. The final leaves it ambiguous on if the mastermind is telling the truth similar to 1 ending which I hated that 2 gave a definitive answer which ruined some of the mystery of 1 ending. Anyway, suchi remarks on how he thinks that in the end lies aren’t bad if they lead into some sort of truth which was why Kokichi liked suchi he liked that he would lie to protect people and lead to the truth he only gets mad at suchi when he lies to incriminate him by lying in trial 4. Suchi learns that in the end Kokichi was just trying to help them through his lies. It’s contrasted with Nagito and hajima where hajima fails to understand that Nagito wanted to hide the truth and save the only person not on the list. It’s somewhat tragic that Nagito basically died to save everyone from the truth but in the end it’s always revealed even if it’s all a lie. Overall v3 I thought was a great ending to the series that I think was meant to convey the message that sometimes things end and that’s ok and that fiction can change the world. It disheartens me that some fans want danganronpa 4 I think that they fail to understand the ending of v3.
So in Chapter 5 of DR1, I, like most people, just assumed "Makoto survived because he's the Ultimate Lucky Student!".
And in DR2, I(again), like most people, thought that Nagito's talent/power is both awesome...terrifying...and completely nonsensical.
Like "Luck isn't that predictable!
It's not a vicious cycle of good and bad!"
But then one day, I sat down, thought about it...and realized something.
As much of a difficult pill "predictable luck" _is_ to swallow...it's _still_ just _luck._
Nagito's luck,as OP as it is and _if_ you're willing to suspend your disbelief...is _STILL_ just _LUCK._
Makoto's luck...is _complete..._ and _utter...BULLS**T._
If you pick the "wrong" choice, the debate + Kyoko's execution last approximately 9 minutes.
If you pick the "right" choice, the "debate" + Makoto's execution last approximately _5 and a half minutes._
...Let me repeat that:
Makoto...who's debate was approximately 3 and a half minutes _shorter_ than Kyoko's...was _saved by Alter Ego..._ because of his _"luck"._
...
...
...
Excuse me for a moment.
*breathes in*
HOW THE _F**K_ DOES THAT MAKE _ANY KIND OF SENSE?!_
By the time Kyoko's execution started, Alter Ego should've already been there!
What, does Makoto's luck magically bend _reality ITSELF_ just so he could survive?!
Or does Alter Ego intentionally let Kyoko die, the sadistic little f**k?!
*sigh*
Phew...glad I got it off my chest.
I'm also glad that I'm not the only one who thinks this.
Now...onto V3's ending.
I do see how people could get confused, but I personally wasn't.
While I did also get the impression that the game was attacking the "actual" DR fanbase at first, I realized just how _stupid_ that would be.
As crazy and...frankly _dumb_ Kodaka can be(by far his dumbest decisions being not developing his main antagonist's character in any way because "other people did it poorly" and making DR3 into an anime. And this is coming from someone who _loved_ the anime.), not even _he's_ crazy or dumb enough to insult the people who actively buy and support his product.
Then I came to the conclusion that the "fictional" fanbase was just a parody of the "actual" fanbase. And a pretty accurate one at that.
That being said, even _if_ the ending was meant as an attack aimed at the "actual" fanbase, I still would've liked the ending because:
1)It did it in such an over-the-top way that I couldn't really get mad at it,
2)The ending regularly poked fun of itself with the whole "Junko being the mastermind for the 53rd time" thing, so the shade-throwing wouldn't have been _completely_ one-sided,
and the last(and most personal) reason:
3)I don't like the fanbase.
In fact, NicoB, Weeby Newz, SHSL Blaze, lenku-alli, KelliSnowKoneGaming, Razzbowski, Craftsdwarf, Fresh Plays, you and a few others are the only people that I actually like in this fanbase.
Everyone else just either: worships a character, flanderizes a character, starts a ship war, spoils everything for some stupid sadistic reason, gets mad because their head canons aren't actually canon or sends Goddamn death threats to people who don't ship what they ship or ship what they don't ship and other stupid s**t like that.
I'm not kidding when I say that DR3's ending was the worst period to be a DR fan.
All of that toxicity that was mentioned above?
Yeah, imagine that... _only 10 times WORSE._
EVERY DR3 comment section was a God forsaken war that was most likely kick-started by some random pretentious know-it-all.
There were not civil discussions.
There were no well thought-out debates.
There was no _fun._
Just whining.
From both sides.
And before anyone says it:
I. DON'T. GIVE. A. SINGLE. GODDAMN F**K. That those toxic morons are in the vocal minority.
And _no:_
The DR fanbase is not the worst one ever.
I never implied that and I will _never_ imply that.
AND _NO:_
I'm not claiming that I was some kind of saint during that period.
I shamefully admit that I played a part in some of those "wars".
But those facts won't prevent me for f***ing _despising_ this fanbase.
In fact, you know all of those lines that Kiibo was saying during his "boss battle" like "This isn't my Danganronpa" and "This guy should've died instead of Kaede"?
I've seen some people say those things unironically, the entitled little s**ts.
So seeing the metaphorically "evil" representation of a fanbase that I hate being verbally beaten down by one of my favorite characters was... _more than a little satisfying._
Aaaaaaaand done.
*sees the length*
...God _damn_ I have a problem.
Persian Slashuur I have an even bigger problem for reading all of that. I too like razzbowski btw.
You're putting too much weight on the time literal of the non-stop debates. If DR time passed the same as in game time then talking for 5 minutes with 2 people each wouldn't equal to like, 7-8 hours of in-universe time. The rest of your comment is ironically more whining than i've seen from the fanbase
the reason i believe alter ego didn't save Kyoko is bc it was all in Makoto's head
@@sarinabina5487
How did he know what the execution would be?
What, is he The Ultimate Lucky Student, The Ultimate Hope _and_ The Ultimate Clairvoyant?
@@PersianSlashuur Idk how tbh. I just think the developers intended it to be his imagination bc after the "bad ending" happens Makoto says something like "No this isn't right!" and you're taken back to the class trial. Basically I think the developers meant for it to be his imagination but didn't think about how he would know what the execution is which kinda causes an accidental plot-hole. Or maybe they intentionally left Alter Ego out on purpose otherwise that would've spoiled Makoto's execution and Alter Ego still being alive which is probably the more likely option.
lost me at V3
Totally agree with your points. I loved the way V3 was written up until the reveal, but then I felt a disconnect between my opinions and the characters', and instead related to the audience more and more.
The perjury mechanic had a lot of potential, and whenever it was NEEDED, it made sense and felt smart. As I was aware of the mechanic before playing the game, I actively sought out every opportunity to use it. But it felt unrewarding cuz every backroute, despite giving quite a few hilarious responses (*cough* Miu *cough*) made the Ultimate DETECTIVE sound like a total idiot.
just discovered your channel and was completely prepared going into this video to disagree with you (lol, imagine a dangan ronpa fan not being overly opinionated), however i found myself continously pleasantly surprised by your thoughts on the series' game design elements and overarching narrative! i didn't dislike the ending of v3 for entirely the same reasons, but i'm glad someone else found the plot devices insubstantial in the face of the greater criticism the game was trying to offer. mainly - that if kodaka continued making installments in the dangan ronpa series, that the plotlines would become repetitive and hollow in comparison to earlier installments. obviously this falls short given v3 is...the fourth game, and nowhere near double-digits hahaha.
glad i stumbled onto this channel, and looking forward to checking out more of your content!
Yeah, V3’s ending really soured the whole experience for me. It just drags on and on after its whole reveal of what’s really going on with a choice that’s far less interesting to make than the one in 2 and less well executed than the one in the first game. I told myself after finishing that I’d stay away from the community because I knew it’d have its fair share of staunch defenders thanks to how the game itself felt like it was strawmanning anyone who might have a problem with the ending through its in game audience hating the characters’ decision (turns out I was right too, many of them can’t defend the game without insulting its detractors). It’s definitely my least favorite of the series but it’s so much of a mixed bag for me that I find myself unable to simply say that it’s bad or that I hate it given that I thought that it really had a lot going for it, doing some things better than the first game but only to disappoint me in a big way on a couple occasions (the other being Kaede’s reveal in chapter 1 which I thought was just a really bad narrative choice for any kind of mystery story)
2 I think will always be my favorite because I think that it accomplishes what it sets out to do more effectively than any of the other games in the series, and besides Hiyoko and Teruteru, has a cast of characters that I actually really enjoy seeing work off one another.
I did hate the ending of V3 at first because I thought he was mocking the players as well. I’m just used to some Japanese creators (Eva’s *cough cough*) mocking their fanbase over enjoying their fictional content, which doesn’t make sense because they are your supporters, so I thought Kodaka was doing the same thing. Still found the ending funny since I saw it as Kodaka’s way of saying, “Haha! I quit! 🖕🏼 See ya suckers! 👋🏼 I’m doing my own thing now!”
Did people really hate the ending of V3 because they thought the fan base was being hated on? I hated it because it was just stupid, added a bunch of plotholes and came out of nowhere.
Ye, that's actually the biggest reason I've heard for people disliking the ending. As I reflected more, though, my reasoning more closely aligns with yours.
MML's Commentaries Honestly though, I find your analysis very unique as you mix talking about the technique with a good amount of application if you know what I mean which you might not now that I think about it.
Honestly i think that the plotholes were intentional , i mean is there any proof that all that stuff tsumugi said was true? Her cospox? Where is the proof for that?
Plínio Melo Well then I would just call the ending lacking in explanation for such a big twist. Either way, I'm not a fan of it.
@@pliniomelo6295 I mean if the cospox isn't real then the entire ending is somewhat based on a false premise, no?
The whole "JK LOL Tsumugi killed Rantaro!" thing really rubbed me the wrong way, I played the game in like 3-4 days when it came out, so I might have missed why it was a good idea break the rules of the killing game