Something to think about when you talk about police training the Infantry Sword Exercise, is that EVERYONE was training the sword exercise in the early/mid 19th C... it was considered to be primarily an exercise system, usually under the name of Military Drill or the Extension Motions, and seems to have been the equivalent of something like Yoga or Pilates in modern times. It was taught in small classes in hired rooms or privately in wealthy homes, and seemed to be mostly an occupation for retired Sergeants; Walker describes "young ladies" being taught by Sergeants in his 1836 "Exercises for Ladies...", and if you search the British Newspaper Archive you can find lots of ads for retired Sergeants selling their services as "Drill" instructors for civilians all the way up to the late 19th C, often in combination with dance instruction. If you accept the premise of Mark Singletons "Yoga Body", military drill was even potentially one of the precursors (along with traditional Indian wrestling exercises) of modern Yoga poses, which only start to appear in Yoga practise in the 19th C. Also, if you're interested in a connection between the Infantry Sword Exercise and the police cutlass, one of the people who helped develop the system itself, Maj. Edward Anthony Angelo (Henry Charles' little brother), was installed as the Chief Commissioner of Police for the borough of Bolton in 1839; there's a decent argument to be made that Edward Anthony is the one who really invented the Infantry Sword Exercise, or at least introduced the elements of Prussian Drill which made it compatible with the Army's existing drill system, since he was the only Angelo to ever serve in the military and was (according to Wellington's correspondence with Gen Torrens) actively teaching the Infantry Sword Exercise to troops in France when it was rolled out in 1817. He also had very poor judgement in romance, and was briefly exiled to the Newfoundland Fencibles after eloping with daughter of a Marquis, which might have led to his name being left off of the Infantry Sword Exercise when it was originally published...
My 3rd great-grandfather immigrated from Liverpool to the US in May of 1850 on a ship name the Grace McBae. Anyway, in his diary he stated that at one point some ruffians had broken into the food stores, and that the captain had to go down after them "sword drawn" to dissuade them. I wonder if it might've been a similar weapon as one of these!
What a gorgous cutlass/hanger! As a huge Briquet sabre fan this 1868 pattern police cutlass really attracts me! It just looks good and really functional. Great video!
In New Zealand, alongside the militia and the British Imperial forces were the Armed Constabulary. The Armed Constabulary was formed in 1846 with the passage of the Armed Constabulary Ordinance. I have an 1853 pattern cavalry sword by Mole of Birmingham, marked for New Zealand 'Armed Constabulary Force'. This is based on the 1853 pattern cavalry sword of the British Army but is deliberately made slightly lighter and with a 33-inch blade (instead of the normal 35 inches).
Ah nice, that is a nice little extra bit of info. I have a full length 1853 and there is more to be said about the police swords, perhaps I will put some more info together and make a part 2.
NSW Mounted Police is the oldest mounted police force in n the world and they carried the 1853 cavalry sword (many examples still around) and carbines and pistols.
The police cutlass is my favorite sword. It's the perfect sword sidearm for someone who has no idea what they're doing with it. Forgiving cutter, good enough at poking, not too long or unwieldy. Nothing fancy or elegant. Is there a maker's mark on yours? From the width and curvature it looks like a Mole, but the tip looks maybe a little more reinforced than the examples I've seen. The customs sword looks like a wicked slicer with that wedge section and hatchet tip. Is the point of balance further from the hand than with the former?
enjoyed this entertaining lecture, I've found R.I.C. police cutlasses turn up here in Ireland - one of my neighbours set up in antique dealing, she had a couple of the above which she held onto - just in case
I have read that on part of london member of the community petitioned the magistrates to have them routinely armed with swords. It came after 2 officers were badly beaten on their patrol. The magistrates granted this. But I can't find the article.
I have a antique prison officers sword, which is essentially the same sword, with a working lock but missing the belt frog, and is completely blunt. It's just a shame i wasn't allowed to carry it while i was a prison officer.
I've been looking for similar information on the riding officers (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_officer) but I think they weren't as well organised in the 18th century to have a standard issue sword or drill.
There was a massive lack of standardisation in the 18th century that didn't really change much until the end of the century, this goes for sword patterns, regulations, a lot of the uniform regulations, drill and all sorts. Even during the Napoleonic period the army did not have official standardised systems of sword practice, it being left to inidvidual units in most cases.
As far as I know we have no sources sadly. The closest thing would perhaps be Saint-Martin who was a Frenchman teaching in Austria. Otherwise you'd have to look to later 19thc sources and hope they haven't changed too much.
At first, during napoleonic age, no Germany existed! There existed about 35-40 remaining states. Up to 1813, all with exeption of Austria and Prussia had been in french dominated ,Rheinbund'/ Federation of the Rhine. According to Wikipedia , german swordsmanship switched arround 1600 from Meyer ( german longsword) to italian rapierstyle. In 1660s ( 1680s) the last german fencing treatise contained some ,german longsword moves'. Arround 1740 somewhere in Germany a man noted, he had seen an impressive fencing show with ,great old swords' ( no smallswords!). At pompeous court of Electorate Saxony up to 1709 ,Tournaments' existed, this had been stopped, because the weapons and fencing technics had no more similarities/ usefullness to actual (1700!) style of fencing. When you watch the famous arms collection in Zwinger Museum/ Dresden, you clearly see the ,fantasy look' of this ,Tournament' swords and shields. In early 1760s the 14years old Johann Wolfgang Goethe ( no nobleman at this days) got some fencing lessons payed by his father, a middle rank official of ,Imperial Town of Frankfurt am Main' . In later years the now famous poet wrote: There had been two fencing teachers in Frankfurt. An older german one and a young frenchman. The students of both teachers wanted to see a show match (?)/ bout (?) between the two teachers. The german one fought in a static way ( still practiced today in german academic fencing), the french one fought in mobile style. The german teacher ,got much sweat' as result of the ,for him, unusual mobile style of the french teacher, but the german teacher often disarmed the french teacher. So i think, in napoleonic age , german fencing was highly influenced by french fencing. Note : the cutbased ,german academic fencing' was introduced arround 1830, after a number of deadly accidents in former thrust based fencing of german students.
definitely right regards the miltarised police, most of the U.K. had a "civilian" police but Ireland despite being part of the U.K. had the R.I.C. who were armed paramilitary police - one serious mark on policing this had is this, here in Ireland older people didn't say Police Station instead they say "the Barracks" i.e. near military Definitely check out the 1913 Lockout where police assaulted members of the public - one British army officer was on leave in Dublin during this and he witnessed some Metro Police club a member of the public to death while stinking of fumes of drink One more reason that the Irish police are mostly unarmed, more jaw dropping is that the Irish police were founded as a not military a-political force in the middle of the chaos of the Irish Civil War as a civilian police force
Because there is a big difference between mounted police and mounted soldiers. The horse is valuable to the police for mobility and intimidation of crowds, whereas a mounted soldier is a blunt instrument of war.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing : Some years ago, in a german arms magazine, i am german, there was an article about the mounted Regiment of french ,Garde Republicaine' which belongs to Gendarmerie, not army. They still train with saber and cavallry saber charge, but do not only ceremonial service. As being Gendarmes they still have to patrol a forrest ( Bois de Boulogne?) and still have a saber on saddle. Perhaps now , twenty years later, things have changed.
If you're interested in the historical treatises, wiktenauer.com/ and www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/. If you're interested in modern books about the interpretation of those treatises and general discussion, I can recommend Guy Windsor books (gumroad.com/guywindsor), and the material freely available on this channel's associated website (swordfight.uk/resources/). There's a lot more around of course but I think this would be a good starting point.
Yeah....police forces here in the USA have tanks, armored troop carriers, grenades, shotguns, sniper & combat rifles etc. Even on the day 2 day they usually carry combat knives, a primary pistol, a back up pistol, a shotgun between the seat of the car, a rifle in the trunk, etc & i assure you that as much as the media would like folks to think its not that violent here. Lol
As a cutlass it makes a nice looking hanger! on another note I can't see the cops in my town being safe with even nerf swords lol. That said, as an American I have always been impressed by the British police typically not having guns, I imagine their training must be a lot harder and they must be pretty good at hand to hand as well as de-escalating conflict.
theres really two sides to to british policing. on the one hand they can do some impressive stuff with deescalation and crowd control, on the other hand they very much have their own agenda, and if you follow anyone who makes a business of prosecuting police officers here you can see theres a hell of a lot wrong with british policing. the british police are not exactly shy about attempting to intimidate the wider british public if they believe they have a moral cause, or if they simply feel entitled to do so.
@@animeboitiddies6146 I have actually heard of such concerns, even some alarming examples, but didn't mention them as not having ever been to England it would seem inappropriate to criticize what I have no experience with, as well as off topic; my "being "impressed" was speaking purely re: their ability to do their jobs without firearms. I don't doubt they have their problems as well. I didn't want to speak through my hat on that not being even from England, you guys know more about it than me.
@@thelonerider9693 if you fancy some of the worst examples of british policing, take a peek at a dude on here called crimebodge, he seemingly does about as good a job of taking them to task as can be done given our police disciplinary system is basically hell bent on getting officers let off on even the most serious of charges if they can get away with it.
You think that would quiet protests about police violence? Are you hard of thinking? The protestors would bet armed. Not with swords. Wtf is wrong with people. In a hole, stop digging or go to civil war 2
Something to think about when you talk about police training the Infantry Sword Exercise, is that EVERYONE was training the sword exercise in the early/mid 19th C... it was considered to be primarily an exercise system, usually under the name of Military Drill or the Extension Motions, and seems to have been the equivalent of something like Yoga or Pilates in modern times. It was taught in small classes in hired rooms or privately in wealthy homes, and seemed to be mostly an occupation for retired Sergeants; Walker describes "young ladies" being taught by Sergeants in his 1836 "Exercises for Ladies...", and if you search the British Newspaper Archive you can find lots of ads for retired Sergeants selling their services as "Drill" instructors for civilians all the way up to the late 19th C, often in combination with dance instruction. If you accept the premise of Mark Singletons "Yoga Body", military drill was even potentially one of the precursors (along with traditional Indian wrestling exercises) of modern Yoga poses, which only start to appear in Yoga practise in the 19th C.
Also, if you're interested in a connection between the Infantry Sword Exercise and the police cutlass, one of the people who helped develop the system itself, Maj. Edward Anthony Angelo (Henry Charles' little brother), was installed as the Chief Commissioner of Police for the borough of Bolton in 1839; there's a decent argument to be made that Edward Anthony is the one who really invented the Infantry Sword Exercise, or at least introduced the elements of Prussian Drill which made it compatible with the Army's existing drill system, since he was the only Angelo to ever serve in the military and was (according to Wellington's correspondence with Gen Torrens) actively teaching the Infantry Sword Exercise to troops in France when it was rolled out in 1817. He also had very poor judgement in romance, and was briefly exiled to the Newfoundland Fencibles after eloping with daughter of a Marquis, which might have led to his name being left off of the Infantry Sword Exercise when it was originally published...
Very interesting. Casually I’m waiting for the end of an auction for a Policia Municipal of Tarragona sabre.
My 3rd great-grandfather immigrated from Liverpool to the US in May of 1850 on a ship name the Grace McBae. Anyway, in his diary he stated that at one point some ruffians had broken into the food stores, and that the captain had to go down after them "sword drawn" to dissuade them. I wonder if it might've been a similar weapon as one of these!
What a nice class on the cutlass! Excellent job! Thanks for sharing your expertise with us!
What a gorgous cutlass/hanger! As a huge Briquet sabre fan this 1868 pattern police cutlass really attracts me! It just looks good and really functional. Great video!
Very interesting video! Plus, I like your cool vest 🙂
In New Zealand, alongside the militia and the British Imperial forces were the Armed Constabulary. The Armed Constabulary was formed in 1846 with the passage of the Armed Constabulary Ordinance. I have an 1853 pattern cavalry sword by Mole of Birmingham, marked for New Zealand 'Armed Constabulary Force'. This is based on the 1853 pattern cavalry sword of the British Army but is deliberately made slightly lighter and with a 33-inch blade (instead of the normal 35 inches).
Ah nice, that is a nice little extra bit of info. I have a full length 1853 and there is more to be said about the police swords, perhaps I will put some more info together and make a part 2.
NSW Mounted Police is the oldest mounted police force in n the world and they carried the 1853 cavalry sword (many examples still around) and carbines and pistols.
The police in Northern Ireland are armed as standard, unlike on the mainland.
I've got one given me by my English uncle 60 years ago. Thanks for the information!
The police cutlass is my favorite sword. It's the perfect sword sidearm for someone who has no idea what they're doing with it. Forgiving cutter, good enough at poking, not too long or unwieldy. Nothing fancy or elegant. Is there a maker's mark on yours? From the width and curvature it looks like a Mole, but the tip looks maybe a little more reinforced than the examples I've seen. The customs sword looks like a wicked slicer with that wedge section and hatchet tip. Is the point of balance further from the hand than with the former?
Robert Peel (1788-1850) was the Founder of the first new Metropolitan Police Force at Scotland Yard in 1829.
He was a Home Secretary & Prime Minister.
Very cool. Never saw one of those before. Thanks for sharing!
I think that the swedish police used sabres atleast thru the 50:s
As far as i know, dutch and swedish police had sabers up to early 60s. In 2000s i saw mounted policemen in Florence/ Italy with sabers.
Great video, it's hard for me to imagine how police would find a use for a sword, it's no surprise some of them were kept blunt.
I always said that the better way to stop a knife attack is with a sword
Thank u for this wonderful topic on 🗡️.👍💯
enjoyed this entertaining lecture, I've found R.I.C. police cutlasses turn up here in Ireland - one of my neighbours set up in antique dealing, she had a couple of the above which she held onto - just in case
Great video sir. Fascinating and entertaining. Love learning new stuff. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Cheers!
Curtle axe, an early form of the word cutlass, did not have a "sea going" connotation. So it's interesting to think about how/why that came about.
That is a cool Cutlass blade , I would like to see Cold Steel reproduce them to the original specs.
It's that cool 😎
I have read that on part of london member of the community petitioned the magistrates to have them routinely armed with swords. It came after 2 officers were badly beaten on their patrol. The magistrates granted this. But I can't find the article.
Actually it was the same website. Tulse hill area of london.
Crikey mate! It's soooo 'that's not a knife, THIS is a knife!' :-D Really nice presentation, I seem to be learning a lot from your channel. Cool!
I really want one of those.
Even though I didn't know about this it just seems appropriate. It might just be me but their's just something so British about a cutlass.
I have a antique prison officers sword, which is essentially the same sword, with a working lock but missing the belt frog, and is completely blunt.
It's just a shame i wasn't allowed to carry it while i was a prison officer.
Inspired by Napoléon imperial guard Briquet ??
Great video thanks
We in Sweden end Udine sable in 1968
I've been looking for similar information on the riding officers (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_officer) but I think they weren't as well organised in the 18th century to have a standard issue sword or drill.
There was a massive lack of standardisation in the 18th century that didn't really change much until the end of the century, this goes for sword patterns, regulations, a lot of the uniform regulations, drill and all sorts. Even during the Napoleonic period the army did not have official standardised systems of sword practice, it being left to inidvidual units in most cases.
Sir Arthur Wellesley His Grace The 1st Duke of Wellington became a Prime Minister in 1828.
"a lanyard on a pistol" lol
we call them Retention Holsters in the land of the kinda-free.
9:13 was that a good way of using veterans?
I have a question. What type of saber system did the Germans use during the napoleonic era?
As far as I know we have no sources sadly. The closest thing would perhaps be Saint-Martin who was a Frenchman teaching in Austria. Otherwise you'd have to look to later 19thc sources and hope they haven't changed too much.
At first, during napoleonic age, no Germany existed! There existed about 35-40 remaining states. Up to 1813, all with exeption of Austria and Prussia had been in french dominated ,Rheinbund'/ Federation of the Rhine. According to Wikipedia , german swordsmanship switched arround 1600 from Meyer ( german longsword) to italian rapierstyle. In 1660s ( 1680s) the last german fencing treatise contained some ,german longsword moves'. Arround 1740 somewhere in Germany a man noted, he had seen an impressive fencing show with ,great old swords' ( no smallswords!). At pompeous court of Electorate Saxony up to 1709 ,Tournaments' existed, this had been stopped, because the weapons and fencing technics had no more similarities/ usefullness to actual (1700!) style of fencing. When you watch the famous arms collection in Zwinger Museum/ Dresden, you clearly see the ,fantasy look' of this ,Tournament' swords and shields. In early 1760s the 14years old Johann Wolfgang Goethe ( no nobleman at this days) got some fencing lessons payed by his father, a middle rank official of ,Imperial Town of Frankfurt am Main' . In later years the now famous poet wrote: There had been two fencing teachers in Frankfurt. An older german one and a young frenchman. The students of both teachers wanted to see a show match (?)/ bout (?) between the two teachers. The german one fought in a static way ( still practiced today in german academic fencing), the french one fought in mobile style. The german teacher ,got much sweat' as result of the ,for him, unusual mobile style of the french teacher, but the german teacher often disarmed the french teacher. So i think, in napoleonic age , german fencing was highly influenced by french fencing. Note : the cutbased ,german academic fencing' was introduced arround 1830, after a number of deadly accidents in former thrust based fencing of german students.
definitely right regards the miltarised police, most of the U.K. had a "civilian" police but Ireland despite being part of the U.K. had the R.I.C. who were armed paramilitary police - one serious mark on policing this had is this, here in Ireland older people didn't say Police Station instead they say "the Barracks" i.e. near military
Definitely check out the 1913 Lockout where police assaulted members of the public - one British army officer was on leave in Dublin during this and he witnessed some Metro Police club a member of the public to death while stinking of fumes of drink
One more reason that the Irish police are mostly unarmed, more jaw dropping is that the Irish police were founded as a not military a-political force in the middle of the chaos of the Irish Civil War as a civilian police force
why didn't the mounted police felt out of use after the cavalry was abandoned?
Because there is a big difference between mounted police and mounted soldiers. The horse is valuable to the police for mobility and intimidation of crowds, whereas a mounted soldier is a blunt instrument of war.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing : Some years ago, in a german arms magazine, i am german, there was an article about the mounted Regiment of french ,Garde Republicaine' which belongs to Gendarmerie, not army. They still train with saber and cavallry saber charge, but do not only ceremonial service. As being Gendarmes they still have to patrol a forrest ( Bois de Boulogne?) and still have a saber on saddle. Perhaps now , twenty years later, things have changed.
How can i find books about Hema?
If you're interested in the historical treatises, wiktenauer.com/ and www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/.
If you're interested in modern books about the interpretation of those treatises and general discussion, I can recommend Guy Windsor books (gumroad.com/guywindsor), and the material freely available on this channel's associated website (swordfight.uk/resources/). There's a lot more around of course but I think this would be a good starting point.
Emarsk beat me to it with a good set of links there.
I'd give up my useless baton to be issued a cutlass.
Yeah....police forces here in the USA have tanks, armored troop carriers, grenades, shotguns, sniper & combat rifles etc. Even on the day 2 day they usually carry combat knives, a primary pistol, a back up pistol, a shotgun between the seat of the car, a rifle in the trunk, etc & i assure you that as much as the media would like folks to think its not that violent here. Lol
Even though it's on land it's not a hanger, it's a cutlass?
Never mind should have finished the vid b4 asking questions.
He should have led with “yes yes I'll get to the hangar question before we finish” 😁
As a cutlass it makes a nice looking hanger! on another note I can't see the cops in my town being safe with even nerf swords lol.
That said, as an American I have always been impressed by the British police typically not having guns, I imagine their training must be a lot harder and they must be pretty good at hand to hand as well as de-escalating conflict.
theres really two sides to to british policing. on the one hand they can do some impressive stuff with deescalation and crowd control, on the other hand they very much have their own agenda, and if you follow anyone who makes a business of prosecuting police officers here you can see theres a hell of a lot wrong with british policing. the british police are not exactly shy about attempting to intimidate the wider british public if they believe they have a moral cause, or if they simply feel entitled to do so.
@@animeboitiddies6146 I have actually heard of such concerns, even some alarming examples, but didn't mention them as not having ever been to England it would seem inappropriate to criticize what I have no experience with, as well as off topic; my "being "impressed" was speaking purely re: their ability to do their jobs without firearms. I don't doubt they have their problems as well. I didn't want to speak through my hat on that not being even from England, you guys know more about it than me.
@@thelonerider9693 if you fancy some of the worst examples of british policing, take a peek at a dude on here called crimebodge, he seemingly does about as good a job of taking them to task as can be done given our police disciplinary system is basically hell bent on getting officers let off on even the most serious of charges if they can get away with it.
A TRUNCHEON IS A WEAPON
I see curved stabby stuff, I click.
they have CURVED SWORDS!!! BIG CURVED SWORDS
@@malahamavet love the reference lol
We could use some of these old school guys on the cretins burning the cities.
You think that would quiet protests about police violence?
Are you hard of thinking?
The protestors would bet armed. Not with swords.
Wtf is wrong with people. In a hole, stop digging or go to civil war 2
Allo Allo this looks like the tool to use out on duty in town. Stop in the name of the Law.
"should the police be issued weapons?" depends on how high is the crime rate.