Erasing Black People From Their Musical Heritage | MY REACTION
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Well done Andy !
Don’t let this tool get under your skin.
His points are on the level of a flat earther.
🤣🤣🤣👍
Bro, flat earth is pure brilliance compared to this.
Andy, I only lasted to 11:58 because the bloke is just wild in his theories. For some reason Chuck Berry sprang to mind: usually regarded as black but he had Native American ancestry as well and of course his music borrowed from Blues, R'n'R and C&W. What does that make him? A race traitor? Or just a musician merrily going along in his time and incidentally being one of the most massive influences on rock and pop ever? In other words, a human being who brought a lot of joy to other human beings.
FWIW if I were you, I wouldn't bother with this bloke. Your clips are always informative, interesting, entertaining and humane in the best sense. (Granted, from your accent, you seem to be a Brummie but you can't have everything.) Mind you, you never mention Rory Gallagher or Alvin Lee but you'll be tormented by demons for that in the afterlife, so that's not a problem either. Stick with it mate and the best of luck.
Many people racialized as Black have Native American heritage. That's kind of what happens during a settler colonial state. How does that change the conversation, though?
Sad part is you meant this
Lol no he's not
Hey Andy, thought you might like to see a comment I posted on this guy’s video:
“The only bigotry here is on your part. You misrepresent what Andy said and clearly you have not bothered to properly check out his over 1000 videos where he has been an evangelist for jazz and the great black musicians who shaped it. Your overweening need to see conspiracy in everything has blinkered you to the real appreciation of this wonderful art form by highly appreciative white audiences, particularly in Europe. Miles or Shorter or Williams or Peterson etc were true musical multiculturalist who, amongst many others, would be disgusted at your bias, and you conveniently forget how welcoming Europe was to struggling black jazz and blues musicians when America turned its back on them. Blues is quintessentially black music, as indeed is funk, but the origins of jazz is slightly more complicated. To assert this is not to suggest there is some white conspiracy to appropriate the art form, but simply to invite mature debate rather than your rabid and summary denunciation. And you also seem to forget that the very essence of jazz is growth and reinvention, and it is clear that white people contributed to this in areas such as fusion and the highly individualistic chamber jazz of the the innovative ECM label. Miles in particular happily appropriated white musical cultures into his electric stew, particularly rock, and we cannot deny the influence of the Latin music on jazz too. You can stay in your myopic world of personal grievance if you want but that is a prison of your own making that curses you to focus solely on the very earliest forms of music because you deny yourself the ability to admit that genres develop over time. For example Miles recognised the European influences of McLaughlin and Holland would enhance his so called black jazz, and because he was free from musical prejudice, unlike you, he had no problem bringing them into his musical world. Andy is an ally to jazz and it is you who is the musical segregationist, I only see division and aggression coming from one side in this argument. Do better.”
Wow...I don't think it will change his mind though...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Iconoclasts like him never do because they are nothing without their grievance. Keep up the good work🤘🏻
Show the genres of music...if Black people appropriate. Show anything close.
@@dryinkdryink675 Are you short sighted,I gave the example of Miles utilising rock in his music?! But the difference between you and me is that aI don’t have chips on both shoulders and thus welcome cross pollination in the arts and culture more generally.
@@fusionfan6883 Rock ? Nothing to do with origins ? Who created Rock by the way?
I love your work, Andy! Don't worry about this lunatic criticising you and your work. I understand your frustration. I have a musician friend who is an Aussie like me (from Anglo-Celtic ethnic background) but he was born somewhere in the Caribbean, he says only "black people" should even try to play jazz because it is only "Black music" - which I think is crazy. As you say, there is only one "race" - the Human race!
I don't think he's watched your videos properly.Racists don't deal with nuance.
Musicians that love music are all about nuance and that's why I thoroughly enjoy your work.
I also think the humorous aspects of your vids are lost on him too !
I agree with most of what you say here. At the same time, some people have a stronger particular ethnic identity than other people as part of a particular community they feel affiliated to- I think that is ok too.
Whether a person is brought up in a very mixed secular culture or a singularly defined longstanding heritage- both should not be imposing the way they engage with culture or ethnicity on other different people.
Mixing or not is a free choice.
@@MartinU4179Yes.Plus, because of prejudice against people of colour I know that that is a daily shared experience.So that will also be something that people resonate with.Colourism is real.
He is a Jazz musician
On da streetz we call certain folk "shite-talkers" who are usually bad actors and when they stretch their voice into dramatic tones you know that they are lying. True passion tells the truth.
I'm impressed that you listened and responded to the whole thing, don't stress, not worth it.....
Ah, it’s extremely irritating ! Calls into question Andy’s character. It’s dishonest and stupid from people who genuinely don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about
@@gavintuesday4959 indeed Gavin. One of the reasons I love this channel, is that Andy doesn't "dumb down" his content, I guess the risk is that the "dumb" may misunderstand it.
Here's a slight variation on the "cultural appropriation" idea: To "appropriate" a culture, you have to join it. Not lock, stock and barrel, but at least to the extent of the "appropriation" (which codes for me like an attempt not to say something crazy like "theft", but to mean something crazy like that, nonetheless).
Now it is so that where one can't make someone accept an offer of your friendship, but can't refuse someone's offer to be your enemy (so to complete the joining of the culture you're "appropriating") I think we could say you can join any culture you like, but you can't guarantee acceptance. And we do this a lot. Bluesmen appropriated something, probably, for instance. And it worked out great, didn't it?
We're Roman. They're dead and gone long ago, but we're a bit Roman. We're a bit Greek (because the Romans culturally appropriated Greek culture, became a bit more Greek, became a bit less Roman, even). It's an ancient thing. Black Americans are Romans. Mexicans, too. And even Asians.
If you put us together (in nice or nasty ways) new stuff happens. Some people join something different to what they came from. We make our own choices, follow our own paths. And the ancestors can't scream at us to get back on the right track, because they're dead like Romans.
How did Adele become black, for instance? She listened to some death metal, and saw some death metal culture, but resisted that temptation. "Not for me, really." She might have come across some true and Pure British Music like Gilbert and Sullivan, but if she did, clearly it didn't bring her in. Maybe she tried to steal something from German culture? Brahms is quite nice ... but no ... Searching, searching, she searched till she found black music. Spark ignited the fuel. Pow! Yes! That's me, that is! And off she went to become black. As is right if that's what reflects what's within you best, even if the match on the superficial surfaces is not so great.
Ja, ja, and then the other stuff. It might be so, but it's all surmise. Fact is we just don't know. Could be Adele sells because people don't mind that she can't do metal growls, or yodel, or shred on the ukelele, for instance. And she's got a pretty good voice, innit?
You wrote all that and said nothing 😂
Plenty of success enjoyed by musicians and their crew come from the success of any fellow musician. Engineers, producers, bus drivers, caterers, security...the list is endless. How many mortgages were paid off and educations paid for, families of every stripe benefited from just Eminem's success alone! All this constant grousing and gurning is so counter productive - Live and let live!
45:07 what music does he buy?
What instrument does he play??
Yes you couldnt play this upcoming vidio on Juneteenth .that wouldve been upsetting.😅
Junes teeth ?Should have left them alone😂
Humans invented music and it belongs to everyone. Arguing about genres and race is pointless.
Well black music doesn't belong to you, so let's put that one out there!
That's typically what a member of a dominating "race" (and that doesn't want to relinquish their position) would say...
@@TartempionLampion a dominating race???? We give these people power, and we can also take it away! The dominating race are the ones that's most hated and the most envied!! And they ain't WHITE neither!!
Sounds like you and yours aren't creators
So ugly. There would be no jazz without those damned colonizers instruments. The innovations brought about by black musicians can’t be denied. Now, thanks to cross pollination, the blues turns into Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin, a powerful distillation of black music amped up to umpteenth degree. We all benefit learning from each other.
Evolution can be ugly and it can also be beautiful . Everyone that has ever lived has been a part of evolution . To Me the evolution of music is one of the most beautiful things that has ever been created by the human race . You are a fantastic musician and a wonderful person Andy .
Can't wait to watch this one tonight! I can't believe it! I'm actually salivating! Please help me!
You can do it!
Andy time for another walk in nature..."And into the woods I go, to lose my mind and find my soul"=John Muir. Your biggest fan-Danny "Regina" McGrath!
the first hip hop record was by Ian Dury
I’m just diving into this argument. I’m not super familiar with Ian during the blockage… Off the top of my head I would have to say they’re punk/post punk… But I’m watching. Where is the city cheerful part three…😮😮😮😮
What about this ua-cam.com/video/er5JDeNlOfo/v-deo.htmlsi=k0nAGf7ToImbu4pN
I present the nightmail. Not hip hop but definitely rap, the flow is surprisingly modern sounding, especially for 1936. ua-cam.com/video/-EZxJ9Bkoeg/v-deo.htmlsi=6HXVJWJpFdxx9E1r
I knew us British must have invented it...
There are some linguistic grey areas in the debate. In the worst case, they are deliberately exploited by persons of bad faith to pursue their own agendas. In the best case they are just not perceived by the ignorant - welcome to the internet.
Firstly, the term "black music". Are we talking about the origin story? Are we talking about the majority of exponents at some point in history? Or are we talking about the majority of creative geniuses who drove the development of the form. Secondly, what is even meant by black? Is it ADOS? Should we use a legalistic "reasonable man" test - i.e. someone that most people would perceive as black, irrespective of their ancestral origin? Should there be a DNA test?
Your interlocuter's arguments are so poorly defined that there is not much mileage to be gained by "debating" him as you are essentially shadow boxing.
All the points you have made here, I have made. I did a series of videos culminating on my history of Jazz video.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer soz - you make ‘em faster than I can watch ‘em
Andy, may I suggest that you look at the current controversy in the USA regarding Beyoncé making a country music album? The same issues are present, albeit in a reverse manner. Actually, this would be a good topic for a further video. If you want to keep the discussion alive, that is.
I wonder where TS thinks the harmonic motion ii-V-I (on which so much jazz is based) came from. [SPOILER: it came from Western European common practice]
That fact alone should make it obvious that jazz comprises elements of black and white cultures. And that's without even mentioning so many key figures in early jazz development who were white guys: Bix Beiderbecke, Frank Teschemacher, Jack Teagarden, et al.
I love to see all those black souls singers try to argue that Sean Nos singers (Irish , very hit and miss stuff) copied them 🙄 in how they sound and express themselves
Oh, yeah… the chances that 200 years ago , the black locals overheard Irish and British sing in their local style ….
😂😂😂 black Americans got their singing style from the Irish. Okay😂
Truth Savior was 1000% right
Never seen this criticism video - you should have linked it in the description BTW. But I bet he's right on the money, given your indefensible drivel about how "my culture is the best" in a video DEFENDING RACIST RIOTS (im not making this up readers).
Creativity has always been stimulated by drawing on other peoples ideas, including cultural cross-fertilisation. It keeps the DNA of the arts alive. It has always been the case and is a reflection of human cultural behaviour.
Well put throughout, Andy. This was a valuable capstone, directly juxtaposing your views with someone actually saying the wacky postmodernist things that this guy does.
blues- as well as being an American black music is also a pentatonic based folk music of no particular colour that stretches across the world travelling from India through Indo European languages through Celtic culture across British Isles and then through immigration and slave trades across to the Americas. Black American culture obviously has been influenced by Europeans and Near Eastern Christianity via Europe. After that obviously black American cultivated music has influenced rock and mainstream pop music / culture greatly in turn.
Hi Andy, should be an interesting video
I'm close to losing my temper through out. I haven't got the temperament to deal with these types with the respect they believe they should deserve, whilst using my image and name to attack my race and culture.
Don't feed the trolls Andy. Your musicianship and philosophy are first call and you don't need to engage with those chasing the conspiracy dollar
Hail Andy - King of White Jazz!!
We're supposed to say that ALL popular music since, say, 1900 originated in Africa. But early jazz, middle stage jazz, sophisticated jazz, rock 'n' roll, developed rock, AND soul, AND dance music sound nothing like the traditional music of west Africa. Nothing on Kind of Blue sounds like traditional west African music. Blues is just slow minor scale music. Dance, from disco to house, is marching music. And soul is just "Western" vocal harmony; it's very similar to Gregorian chant or Barber Shop.
And Black genius musicians are key, and the Africam/American experience is the X factor. I just wish I could get into this properly without this crap going on
Trying to justify identity politics by wrapping it in conspiracy theory. Absurd logic from someone who offers no direct evidence to support his claims. For me the biggest issue is that he doesnt offer a single frame of reference to back up his statements..just casting shade. Absurd
Yes...not a shred. If it was there he would! But it really isn't. Black musicians were there at the beginning of Jazz and i can show this, but they won't let me because they don't want it proved other races were there as well.
you can't use logic and critical thinking with those whose goalposts are based solely on reaction and emotion , keep up the good work sir and let it go , far too many pleebs like this to bother with , concentrate on the good stuff and folks of which there still are plenty ..,
Do the people making these fallacious arguments even listen to Jazz? I'd bet not. Miles Davis-- especially in the 70s-- used "mixed race" bands because he felt they sounded better, and for years, his best friend was Gil Evans, a white Canadian...Don't get me started on what Dizzy felt about "Crow Jim" as displayed in the world of music...Racial separatism is bullshit, whoever espouses it...
Water off a ducks back mate.
Jazz was formed and created in America. Once it was played in public and recorded and played around the world, then it is music of the world. No one owns it, just like no one owns classical music, or carribean music or Indian music. Anyone can play, listen to, mix various styles. This is called freedom to express yourself. Yes pop music in the US was and still is controlled by racism, as is much of the US is. There are millions in the US who are racist and will never listen to Jazz or any music performed by non white people because they are racist. That is why I love jazz. Jazz is open to absorb and mix different music from anywhere in the world. That is what is important. For me I don't blame my upbringing and education on why I love jazz. I just love the freedom of expression. I don't care about the heritage and color of the skin of the musician. We are all citizens of this earth equally!
Are black people who have never listened to classical music racists?
What about blacks who have never listened to prog?
You've never been to the States, clearly.
- Blues has hawaiian influence, and who invented the guitar, a key instrument in most blues, or the piano? Black church music needed the European tradition to formalize the harmonies, etc.
- I recall the first response from your detractor, Andy as pretty lightweight, eg only two scales in Jazz? LOL!
- Hip-hop culture (not just rap music) probably has a handful of influences from all over the place but I'll let others sort that . out... Eg. Wu-tang loved Kung fu and samurai movies and that culture!
- What does it mean to "claim" anyway and why is it necessary? (claim a genre?)
I'm done, thanks for sharing the reaction Andy!
It’s gonna take more than our Andy from Brum to remove blacks from jazz !
On the whole, they have already been removed a long time ago. Go to any Jazz gig and look at the audience. Miles tried to bring them back but the Jazz world looked down on him and said he had sold out.
The truth is, you can make the case he would like to make better than he can. You have used your education to learn and teach music. You are a musician who played in bands at significant times in music history. What you know, you know well and what you don’t know you are open learn. This guy is talking absolutes. This topic is more nuanced than just black-and-white thinking. Pun intended.
You’re far too educated of a person and accomplished of a player to let this guy drag you through the weeds. The dude clearly is looking for a fight over subject matter that’s miles over his head. I took one look at his video and can see he’s looking to find anybody not black who makes videos regarding jazz music with his critique already ready to go before he finds his straw man. I don’t blame you for responding, ignorance needs to be shut down.
They do that with white history ,culture ,inventions all the time
Not a very inteligent person , Andy . - He definitely has an agenda . We who listen to you- know where your coming from - don.t let this guy get the best of your ranting !
Thanks for that
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer speaking of where music comes from - saw NETFLIX - doc on JOHN BAPTISE -
AMERICAN SYMPHONY ! - great program - Have you seen it !!! A MUST for you !! Feel better Mate !
Will it reaffirm my racist viewpoint? I'm in need of that at the moment...
100% - sorry I saw your
Americana this morning - you have no right to address this genre since you are a Brit ! you were a sucker to buy that kit ! you can never be one of us , lol 😊
Humans create music
yep...humans and AI
Not only that but many of the greatest, and most admired black figures in jazz (Miles Davis, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, etc) were huge fans of white European classical music (Stravinsky, Debussy, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and so on), and it had a major influence on their compositional ideas and the harmonic innovations they promulgated. Read the recent 3 Shades of Blue if you don't believe me. Miles famously only listened to classical music in his New York apartment.
Indeed complex interrelationships between the european composers and american Jazz artists (note I'm specifically not mentioning races here...) started in the 20th century, I would only imagine later French music would have been influenced by the Jazz their heard so it goes back and forth...
Scriabin was also important to jazz musicians.
@@DrOz-007 Yes!
Yes, Blacks can find beauty in European classical music, but they do not try and coopt the invention of it, unlike the Whites in this video and comment section. Unfortunately, the same thing cannot be said in reverse.
@@robertreed9818 the point is that it would be inaccurate to describe jazz as purely 'black' music as it was heavily influenced by the work of European classical composers. Like all great culture, it's a hybrid form.
The explosion of blues music in England in the early 60s doesn't suggest to me that the English are racist about music.
Still the case today Many blues jams in London.
I wonder who invented the instruments ? Who invented the musical scales ?
@@davidjohns4745Who invenred the electric ,who tnvented the language 😂😂😂🎉😂😂😂😂😂.They really dont think too moch
@@davidjohns4745 who?
@@Stephen-lx9nm who did invent these?
The origins of Swing Music and swing dancing were largely marginalized by American society. Swing dancing went global and today is the longest running social dance in history. Whitey's Lindy Hoppers along with Frankie Manning and Norma Miller are virtually unknown in the US (outside of local swing communities).
If swing music and dancing were creating in the midwest by white college students, the group and key members would be just as famous as icons like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. But the creators were black, and the dance was created in Harlem. If Whitey's group were actually white dancers, they would've been American icons that most Americans would at least be aware of. When you watch black Americans react to Lindy Hopper videos, it's clear they have little or no knowledge of the roots of Lindy Hop, nor the creators who created the global dance. So sad!!!!!!!
I love this channel. 😀
Glad you enjoy it! He does too...views!!!!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Disappointed you would lower yourself to this Andy. Strangely entertaining though to hear you 2 insecure Nancys going at it, because it sounds like the totally uncool and stupefyingly pointless version of Kendrick Lamar and Drake diss tracking each other. Unfortunately, this sad little YT channel grudge match is completely void of self awareness, personal integrity, or cultural intelligence. Thanks for the perverse enjoyment.
You intellectual snob.'Insecure Nancys'...what the hell is this? No one reading this will see you as above all this talk, however you think it makes you look. My channel has 30k subs and 1/2 million views a month. I have got here becuase I have to be super aware.
These videos I do because of personal integrity, it is stuff like 'THE TEN MOST UNDERATED STRING QUARTETS' is the stuff that lacks integrity. Cultural intelligence? what the hell is that? sounds very 'elite' to me. Oh how I wish I had 'cultural intelligence' Is that people who like mayonaisse more than salad creme? How bloody pretentious.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I'd love to see what this was replying to! 😂
This was the comment...
@Datsun510zen
Publicly subscribed to you (1 month)
• 3 days ago
@AndyEdwardsDrummer Disappointed you would lower yourself to this Andy. Strangely entertaining though to hear you 2 insecure Nancys going at it, because it sounds like the totally uncool and stupefyingly pointless version of Kendrick Lamar and Drake diss tracking each other. Unfortunately, this sad little YT channel grudge match is completely void of self awareness, personal integrity, or cultural intelligence. Thanks for the perverse enjoyment.
Collective low self esteem
No, it is that ADOS are realizing just how nefarious people are with how accessible Black Americans have made themselves and their cultural product, that they will openly try and erase them from their own creation. Gatekeeping is necessary, and should have been done from the start, but no one would have imagined people would be so disingenuous.
@robertreed9818 what a reach. I hear they built America too
@@paulmartinson875 I would think you would be limber with all the reaching you're willing to accept in removing Black Americans from their own cultural product. And America is not America without slaves, both the financing they provided and the labor.
@robertreed9818 dude, I grew up on the south side of Chicago lived with worked with partied with even had a child with a black girl. Don't lecture me. Your fervent need for relevance is pathetic. It's American music, period.
@robertreed9818 now I'm going to do some yard work for my black friend, who, incidentally, likes the same music I do
The guy has nothing substantial to say and folks are following him😢.
Ready to roll brother!
How dare black musicians use white man's musical instruments. Cultural appropriation!!! 😂
And tunings, notation, and catalog of standards
I hate that this is actually the logic being used. It's going to incite endless bits of stupidity coming and going. I'll spare the examples, but it's not hard to imagine the hilarious and terrible arguments all of the sides would start in on. "We're taking back hammers and nails"
@@colinburroughs9871 Yep...just don't go there. That is what I am railing against and why I keeo calling them seperatists. They want Black people to be treated differently because of historic ill treatment. By no remedy will ever be good enough.
As a blues guitarist, I see that this guy is Ill educated about music. Just study the major scale and see where minor keys sit within it. Then take a Spanish guitar and play it.
2 things are true at the same time. 1). Musicians create music and groups of musicians influenced by each other create genres. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the specific people involved.
2) Black people have created great music and people have imitated it and reaped the rewards of that imitation more than the person who created it.
So we need to distinguish between cultural melting pots and thievery.
Easy...take race out of it
2) people have created great music and people have imitated it and reaped the rewards of that imitation more than the person who created it.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Here in the US right now a new college women's basketball player is taking the league by storm. She is white, personable and a very good player. The arenas which were empty are now full.
The black players are pissed about it in a way , because they are (at least now) much better players , and the new girl is getting all the accolades. It's about like you said, people like her because they are like her. The public doesn't get what the players do: The new girl is "cutting the line" to greatness, because culture.
Last year , Brittany Griener, one of the all time greatest woman's basketball player got caught in Russia with a hash oil pipe and was given a prison sentence of 20 years. Half the country thought she deserved what she got. Fortunately Biden got her released. So imagine how she feels when the new girl shows up and everyone goes ga-ga over her.
The point is you can't always ignore racism.
My fundamental point is that you cannot ignore racism too. That you need a clear definition of what racism is. People liking a certain girl basketball player, is that racism? I would say no. But if it is, at this juncture where we think racism could be occouring, we need to apply colour blindness. If we don't then there will be more racism.
So why do people like her? Is she the only white basketball player. If not, why are all the white basketcall players greeted in then same way?
In other words, it is racist to judge her success based upon her skin colour. Or the lack of success in others on theirs.
Abel Meeropol, a Russian-Jewish immigrant to the Bronx, wrote the quintessential protest song against racism "Strange Fruit", made famous by Billie Holliday. I would also suggest that many elderly black blues musicians were pulled out of poverty and obscurity by white musicologists and musicians. The blues was actually saved by hundreds of white musicians who adored and respected the older generation of blues musicians.
Maybe you should do a video claiming that classical music isn't "white" music. And mention that Beethoven and Mozart had half Moorish ancestry. That might even out your stance.
I don't think it is white, and Beethoven was influenced by a French composer who was Black. Black people have been involved in classical music and made great innovations in it. but I do not believe in acting in a way to even out anything.
Assuming your position and then arguing from there is a beautiful thing😂(Satan Laughing Spreads his Wings)👿
Erasing black people!?!?!?
Whoever said that of you doesn't know one end of his pencil from the other.
I'm sure you've made great cases to add people to the history, not to erase anyone.
What a cheek!
You won't believe how much people accuse me of all sorts...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer
There's all sorts of weirdos out here don't take none of it to heart 🫂
@@paulkenyon3372 I do I'm afraid
I wish we could
He’s using the straw-man argument on you. People seldom hear what we say as their filter is so dense. People need to be taught critical thinking versus emotional thinking. You are probably banging your head against a brick wall. Getting this sort of reaction to your content is horrible but is actually a really good sign for your channel. You have conspicuity and influence so keep doing what you are doing and fuck’em! I think you always discuss race with great accuracy and respect and you provide high quality content
Thank you
Critical theory subscriber in search of potential kindling for a manufactured crisis, because academia says doing so is very smart. zzz..
I'm happy that the local swing community here in Vancouver rightfully mentions Whitey Lindy Hoppers, Frankie Manning, and values the history of the Savoy Ballroom.
I think you're probably right, Andy. Great musicians will probably conspire to work on projects based on tastes, interests and connections, rather than by race. I'm from the US. There is another sense that jazz can be considered black music, though. I don't think this is currently the case, but at one time jazz was probably ubiquitous in black households. Conversely, I expect jazz was more of an esoteric art among whites. I know I'm over simplifying... just trying to make a point.
The audeince changed over time. But the key to the history is understanding the audience
As my bass teacher said, "music is for people who stick with it.." Duke Ellington said there are two kinds of music " good" and "bad." The fiction of "race" is going to destroy the planet.
Amen
"Fiction of race".....How has being Black affected your opinion
I'm afraid this simpleton is not worth anyone's time.
the cultural norms (including particular flavors conservatism, racism, segregation, taboos, us-against-them team-think, black-and-white reductionalism, all kinds of biases, ...) of the USA are, thank goodness, not a standard everybody has to ascribe to... also, many us americans are rather culturally ignorant for anything outside their borders, projection helps fill the blank spaces with a broad and lazy brush... and i'm saying this as a US citizen :D ideology of any kind tends to be fact- and argument-resistant, your effort might turn out to be sisyphian...
Andy, as a “foundational” English-Indian, “white,” middle-aged, Gen X, middle class, British, university educated, jazz-rock drummer, UA-camr, and overall music lover, you must say…😂
how is subterranean homesick blues not rap? Just saying!
And Dylan got rapping from Woody.
Muhammad Ali...invented everything ua-cam.com/video/er5JDeNlOfo/v-deo.htmlsi=RzZ0Z8NheLzFnX4e
If you are getting hate that means you are saying the truth...which means you are doing something right lol😂
That is logically ridiculous.
@@tschorsch not really. Look at all the people in history that said the truth...
Eddie Condon''s Biography "We called it music " is the story of the very early days of Jazz in the USA ., before it had an audience . The boys liked alcohol and reefer , that's for sure .
Andy, I'm 11 minutes into this one and I don't have the patience to listen to anymore nonsense from this hater..... Take it as a compliment that I'm going to watch a different video of yours. Speaking of which, nice work on the History of Jazz doc that you put together. Super thorough.
As I notice in most of your content, you tend to approach the discussion from a very honest and humble perspective, never forgetting to throw in some quirky arrogance as well! I think you sum it up nicely when you say that either a person views the world as being divided and against them or being this strange thing that simply exists whether we care or not, and the notion that art forms in the 20th Century were created in a vacuum is just complete nonsense.
Did a majority of black musicians become known as the great jazz progenitors of the 1940s/50s/60s? Yes. Obviously. We're missing half the narrative if we neglect this key fact. Yet, if we also fail to acknowledge all the nooks and crannies of history in America, and the fact that Miles and Coltrane were so good in part because they believed what earlier Enlightenment thinkers believed - that the individual and individual expression is central to living a valuable life and creating quality music - then we fail to see the whole picture.
A good chef has her own secret recipe and keeps it a secret for life. A great chef shares that secret recipe only with her closest allies, trusting that they too will take the recipe and run with it, and the anticipation of what each of those cooks will come up with based on their individual personalities is similar to the anticipation of what a young Robert Glasper will do in a live performance of his rendition of the Joni Mitchell tune 'Barangrill.' Artists' lives are always better served when we support each other's creative endeavors instead of focusing our attention on which racial group owns which music genre. It's enough of that childish crap already.
On behalf of America, I say both "You're welcome," and "I'm sorry." The "you're welcome" is for this country producing Buddy Bolden and the earliest jazz inventors, and the "I'm sorry" is because Americans have succumbed to this era of 'Willful Ignorance' and 'Sheep Herding' where everything is Black/White, Oppressor/Oppressed, "I can't use my own brain to think for myself so I'll join a cult" mentality. Meh, I think we'll get over this 12-year old way of thinking....eventually.....
I find all this quite draining I've got to say. I just want to listen to and play the music that I love. I do like your monolugous though Andy. Even this one would have been fine without having to listen to her bullshit.
Is it now "American of colour" music these days? This is a genuine question but with a weary hint of sarcasm perhaps. It seems difficult to not transgress in some ways in the modern environment. For one thing, it doesn't seem to feel natural to always use the correct, modern phrasing and if you're talking on your feet it's easier to get yourself in trouble while intending no offence. The two of you could do a doubleheader and get to the core of what you each mean. I've no idea what relevance I mean here but Billy Preston playing with the Beatles, an artist of colour joining in with four Liverpool lads of little colour or no colour or as some people say, white who play music developed from artists of colour who's records found their way through the sailors in port to these young musicians, hungry for real music that isn't accompanied by a popular, middle of the road orchestra. Now you also raise the bar on the question with the equal temperament story and the idea of pure racial division within one of the lowest periods we humans have ever lived through. There were monstrous slave owners who took the bodies of the slaves they owned as a right to rape. In contrast, others had families within the slave population from a position of love and care, the end result I'm not able to judge. Still, either way, it certainly complicates the idea of genetic racial separation, the cultural separation is probably more secure as these people would almost certainly live within the slave community. Or is it just algorithm and blues?
Andy, you uphold a rational, informed, inspired and ethical position. Nothing to defend ⚛️🕉️🕉️🕉️☯️
People who immerse themselves in music do not ultimately care who and where it originates from. They only relish the sound, the stew of creativity, with an application of appreciation and notation. Andy, being the King of Hearts and calling a spade a spade, is justifiably appropriate here. Go Andy!
His channel is called Truth Saviour and in his whole video he doesn't substantiate a single claim about your videos through showing direct footage of you saying any of the things he's accusing you of. It's one thing to have legitimate criticisms and to express them in a thoughtful manner, it's another to cynically misrepresent someones content in order to create fake controversy for the sake of driving views to your channel. Truth Saviour's channel is not engaging with your videos in a way that has any integrity at all, they just want the views and mischaracterising you in the process is evidently not beneath them in order to get them.
His first video was called 'White British Man Thinks Jazz is Not Black Music'
I messaged him and said (you can see it in the comments there) 'I am mixed race, my mum is Indian, please change it to 'Mixed Race Man thinks Jazz is Not Black Music' and he said 'No...because you present as white'. I felt like saying 'You don't look that brown yerself matey'
The phrase “You present as…..” tells you all you need to know about.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer That's an outrageous story; people are so afraid!!!!
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer "My Mum is Indian"
I hope she never makes curries including chillis: they originate in the Americas and were taken to South Asia by the Portuguese.
Yep...I decided to give Black people the respect to say what I actually think. But then you have the Kafka trap...you willget damned both ways...either a racist or white supremacist. and the reason is about power...controlling the narrative. So I decided to say what I think.
What happens at 30k subs, Andy? Bit of a knees up, get a few ales in, or maybe gin n tonics in this weather, a chaz n dave singalong?
Yes...
Made it to 6:13 Sorry Andy I've time for you but none for the other guy. Catch you soon
I feel like this guy's argument partially stems from an inability to register a nuanced argument. I see this far too often in debates about all kinds of things, where people seem to be completely unwilling to deal with any ideas that aren't polar opposites. Far too often in life, the truth exists between opposite poles. Maybe folks feel that there's a danger of looking like they're wishy-washy and not staking claim to an extreme side of an argument, but then they're just worried about perception and not getting at the truth of the matter. I think that it's possible to still stake out definte opinions without having to be polarized on one extreme end or another. I feel that we would all be better off as a species if we were all able to see the shades of gray inherent in so many things...
Once you are ideologicially captured you only hear what agrees with your world view.
Perpetual Victimhood.
Andy should to go to New Orleans. I think it might add to his perspective. Go to Frenchman Street absorb the mojo seeping out from everywhere. Tipitina's and the Maple Leaf. Preservation Hall.
Yes, I've suggested this many times. Also Snug Harbor, the venue for straight ahead jazz down there.
Only if you go to Stratford upon Avon and feel how white people invented storytelling. I'm going on facts here, not feelings. By 1910 New Orleans was done in terms of Jazz....Chicago>New York>Kansas City>New York...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Homer lived in Stratford-upon-Avon?
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer New Orleans is like a museum piece / tourist trap, theres better jazz places in Bermondsey , south London..btw white people are awesome
Not sure what you mean. Jazz still exists here in New Orleans. If your not familiar with Christian Scott, he’s quite good especially his early stuff. I’m sure u r familiar with him. He’s from New Orleans. This Truth Savior guy is an idiot and the one who is racist.
In the 50s and early 60s the radio stations in the US wouldn't play black artists - but "black music", means that they let white people sang the songs of the black singers. One exception was Chuck Berry, as he "sounded white enough" to have not been banned by most of the stations.
You are wrong with getting into this useless argument but you are right to state the colourblindness argument. Why do we (or at least the Americans, but even in continental Western Europe - even if we think we are so civilized) still differ between races or sexual orientation, gender etc. We are all people in the end. But yes, it is important to learn from history like segregation, or racism like this one we are talking about here, to avoid it now and in the future. Unfortunately this will never happen for everyone, especially if there are still political influencers like Trump, Orban, LePen, etc...
Orban might very well save 1000s of lives for refusing to participate in the war machine’s proxy war on Russia. Careful.
Seems like Critical Theory, over time, produces an erosion of analytical reasoning, deductive logic, and critical thinking overall. Those who really get into it seem to produce nothing but contentiousness and anger without any real ascertainably marketable talents or skills. Can anyone tell me if the guy who critiqued Andy actually plays a musical instrument?
this was the critical theorists intention, a reaction to why communism wasn't happening naturally. Why were they so cocksure about their view? Because they all are Hegelians essentially and believe that history has an almost divine providence, so the means becomes more important than the end. Equality is Kant's categorical Imperative in action. Equity is treating people as a means....
i remember my grandmother saying to me : I don't care what they tell you in school , jazz is white !
She was wrong, your grandmother....
I do not think he watched all of your videos. What you need to realise that there is a rumour of a split between those who can trace their ancestry to the American slaves versus the new black arrivals because the later are seen to be doing better.
because they never caught lazyness off the southern rednecks...
You know I don’t think I’ve ever heard a jazz song in Bantu.
That's a really stupid comemnt
Do basketball next 🙄
lot's of us v them going on and oddly basketball is all in on that
What is this about? Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!
Me reacting to one of these videos where try and make out I'm part of an international plot to erase Black people culturally
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer ah, ok. No, I don't think there is an international conspiracy, that's bullshit. There's only some ignorance from you about the subject and some refusal in learning about it together with a hunger for likes and views that the subject brings to your channel. But that's ok, I sometimes like to watch while vehemently disagreeing and, well, a man got to put bread on the table! Keep going, baby!
@@alexsixstring Check my views. These videos don't make any money, in fact they lose money. I apologise for my ignorance on this subject. I have spent 40 years studying it and 30 years teaching it, I don't know what more I can do...
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer not about the music in specific but about the "identity politics" as you call it, and the intersection between race, racism and the music we all love. But it's fine, I think you're totally wrong, I will watch it anyway, it's good to disagree or maybe even agree (sometimes I fully agree, I am a subscriber and you have a lot of great content!).
@@alexsixstring I really want to know specifically where you think I'm wrong.
I certainly will not waste my time watching anything he does. He’s trying to build his YT presence on the backs of others…pure click bait…..
❤
Andy Edwards v. United States of America
Jazz is an American art form v jazz is a black American art form
Which court actually has jurisdication over this case?
Hyde Park?
It is an African-American Invention and therefore American Art that became like Rock and Rhumba a Global Art.
And as I will always add: No Hawaii, no Northamerican Popular Musik.
And I am not only talking about Country and Western Music, Slide Guitar Blues and Broadway Exotica but Hollywood too.
@@erikheddergott5514
If the American Congress passes a Jazz Preservation Act, in which it makes jazz a high art form and makes the art form the musical and social contribution of black people to American cultural treasures that must be preserved, the last word will be spoken for the time being.
America has spoken!
The Great Jazzmarkets outside of the USA like France, Japan and Germany have already „decided“ Decades ago, that Jazz is an African American Invention.
It does not really matter what Anglosaxons from both Sides of the Atlantic think.
Even though nobody denies anybody the Right to play Jazz, but compared to Duke Ellington and Count Basie, Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman play Second Fiddles. Good Second Fiddles for sure but definitively not the first Fiddles.
@@narosgmbh5916Over the Years I have forgotten about that Act, but since you brought it back into Memory I have to state:
The Act is Right; the USA for once did it „Right”.
@@erikheddergott5514
And what happens when a nation decides to preserve something:
The nation looks at what exactly is worthy of preservation and what is not.
What it all costs and how to finance it.
For this purpose, commissions are equipped with selected experts and they create, for example, curricula, etc, and lie in the ears of the political clients with financial plans, because somehow everything has to pay off. (Business as usual).
And then a little Englishman comes along and says, dear Americans, you did it all wrong:
-The wrong people were sent to the commissions and decision-making boards and what's more, your basic assumption is wrong:
-Jazz isn't black at all, but is only claimed by black people who want to get to the funding pots.
These videos are much more important than the ones on prog bands, Andy. Over the last couple of years i've had the same experiences: you get confronted by people who cannot hold up a logical argument and then they start moralizing while at the same time making one fallacy after another. They're completely blind to their circular arguments. You feel like Sisyphus rolling the stone up the hill forever.
You only have to point to the creators of hip hop if you're not from America. We saw it happen, the elements of hip hop that went into creating the genre were present in black culture before it was even created. And if you lived in a multi-cultural area in the US just before hip hop came about you would have seen it. Hip hop lingo was also present before the genre came out. The same in New Orleans in the early 20th century. Bix Beiderbecke was disowned by his family for playing "black" music. Andy's argument has also shifted since the beginning of this multi--video tirade. Just "mixed race" isn't the scenario in America. It's black and white culture after slavery. It's unique, and no other country has comparable or the same tensions. England didn't have economic slavery, the racial justification for slavery, the abolitionist movement, Jim Crow, the KKK, the civil rights movement. Ever. Also, Derrida has absolutely nothing to do with critical race theory. Have you ever read Derrida?? Of Grammatology?? Just giving a list of things you''ve heard in college doesn't mean they're all related. And you can only get away nonsensical cultural references because the average youtube music fan doesn't know Foucault or postmodernism.
What we know, and the context in which Hip Hop and Jazz emerged is entirely different. The Wolverines were all white. And they all weren't dosowned by their family. They first recorded in 1924, a year after Louis first recorded. What they were playing at that time had it's ACTUAL roots in white and black music. Bix was not disowned, his parents were just not interested in his music making. He was however arrested for lewd acts with a five year old girl. His dad got him off. His well to do parents then sent him to boarding school. He was then expelled becuase he was a drunk. But lets pretend he was disowned because of Jazz.
Now I need to pick the next bit up...'Have you ever read Derrida?? Of Grammatology?? Just giving a list of things you''ve heard in college doesn't mean they're all related'
This is so patronising and condescending. I left college 35 years ago. I am 56. I worked for a number of years with leading philosophers and cognitive scientists about 20 years ago.
Anyway...this is my guide to CRT
Critical Race Theory: An Introduction Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic
Foreword by Angela Harris
and this is from that;
'As the reader will see, critical race theory builds on the insights of two previous movements, critical legal studies and radical feminism, to both of which it owes a large debt. It also draws from certain European philosophers and theorists, such as Antonio Gramsci and Jacques Derrida, as well as from the American radical tradition exemplified by such figures as Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglass, W.E.B. Du Bois, Cesar Chavez, Martin Luther King, Jr., and the Black Power and Chicano movements of the sixties and early seventies'
can we please move on from this. You are not correct.
And just to finish here. In my video I said that the unique Black experience in the US is the X Factor that made Jazz so potent. This did not happen until the 1920s but it is the case.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer It would be interesting for anyone citing Derrida (including those book authors) to actually summarize his philosophy (which many philosophy departments don't recognize him as an actual philosopher, but a literary/cultural critic) and deconstructionism in general. I hear Derrida quit a bit and the word "deconstruct" nowadays, but no one gives evidence of having read any of it or understanding it if they did. I actually studied it in college before your college days, in its heyday. I took a seminar with him when he was at UCI.
Martin Luther King, Jr. was a radical?? The ridiculous views like that are baked into their entire approach to the subject.
Much of the early music you cited in your last video wasn't even jazz. Yes, there were brass bands, but where jazz actually began is the question. And the Bix family disowned for playing black music fact is from Gary Giddons and other historians of jazz.
Ian Dury had the first rap record, Blondie had the second. The UK invented hip hop
Giddings is wrong...sorry. The stuff about his arrest only came out recently. This may be why he drunk himself to death. You are correct about the brass bands.I was trying to make that point. If we are honest it starts with ODJB. If race was not involved they would get the credit. We have to guess how that happened. Those guys are playing right back in 1905. I think I know what happened, but you cannot have a nuanced conversation around this without getting shouted down.
i haven't read much Derrida. But I worked with a few high profile philosophers years back, when I became interested in cognitive science and it's application to music education. And they would explain this stuff to me. Back then, being such a big Jazz fan I was a total believer in this narrative, which back then was much less apparent, but it was rammed down my throat when I did my degree in Art.
So Foucault's influence on CRT is obvious..yes?
So I would say that CRT was a reaction against the enlightenment liberal solution to racism. This came about in the seventies in Universities. What philosophical outlook did this come out of. I would say radical feminism. And in the early seventies this was looking at how stereotypes were embedded in the media. And this maintained a meta narrative that supported patriachal supremacy.
Now the idea of the meta narrative is coming from Lyotard anf Foucault. Now the big problem with Derrida is that it is so opaque...I would say it is not even philosophy.
But if you start with Lyotard and his quote 'Simplifying to the extreme, I define postmodern as incredulity towards metanarratives.” I would say CRT identified meta narratives inherent systemically, and wanted to deconstruct those meta-narratives. It was though this could be acheived by controlling language, as language is the vessel of meaning (which ofcourse it is)
But English philosophy that truth WAS contained in words and that could be determined through logic, which was almost mathematic in it's relationship to truth, and in that truth could be reduced to an a priori claim.
Now Derrida claimed that 'nature itself is constructed only with reference to the institution' So Derridas idea of truth is unlike that of enlightenment thinking, of liberlism or English philosophy.
Derrida stated 'the origin (of moral justice) does not exist independently of its institution, but exists only ‘through its functioning within a classification and therefore within a system of differences…’
This for me is the solution to why liberalism had failed and why racism had to be actively worked against through deconstruction the laws within the institution.
On Grammatology however does not elucidate some of ideas that directly relate to CRT. In 'Positions' he says this 'the first task of deconstruction is to overturn the hierarchy.'
Now in Derrida's defence he did say this approach would just end in a reverse of hierachical boundaries, which is I think what I reacting to. His solution was to 'Rather than rest with the inversion of the binaries, and by extension accepting a different manifestation of fixed meaning, the second phase requires us to step outside the oppositions, to remain in search of new meanings, not by repeating ideas but by analyzing how ideas are framed, how arguments are made'
the endless search for meaning where there is none.
I'm not an academic, I'm a drummer. This was the best I could do in a YoutUbe comment. If you don't agree then in your mind, whip 'derrida' out of my statement. I don't think it pulls down my main argument.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Andy, I'm going to dig deep and give you the best argument for my case that I could possibly give. I didn't want to lose anything, so I recorded my thought here: ua-cam.com/video/PZ_u9p_yddk/v-deo.htmlsi=3EtsJKiPH9vAlxuP
Remember....Don't say Enigma...Or Regina for that Matter.
The industry will pander to the demographic in that country that pays mostly for music- the majority identity attracted more to people who look like themselves. I agree with you Andy, people prefer to see somebody attractive delivering a song they can relate to- that is biology. At the same time 'mixed race' people are known to be some of the most beautiful people on the planet.
It does seem that America chooses a lighter skinned black American singer for their mainstream most popular pop music as time goes on- Mariah Carey. To counter that observation however Dionne Warwick style was purposefully far more mainstream and its only relevent to this particular discussion that her skin colour was much darker- which feels very uncomfortable and wrong to be pointing out. There is something very sad about Michael Jackson's attempts to whiten his skin colour.
James Brown as they say is the Godfather, a very successful artist, very black in all ways who probably deserved the world wide status of Elvis yet didn't quite get that far.
Elvis had it all with looks that seem to also crossover various races too.
Then if we look into it further- Elvis himself was also very much exploited as a person by the industry which senses the most potent way to manipulate masses exploiting anything they can- race, class, sex.
always the mediocre ones...only because they don't have any OWN ACHIEVEMENTS they try to cash on other peoples achievements .....
Clearly it has nothing to do with skin color. Jazz was created by tall people …generally Miles taller than most, some were so tall that they got Dizzy from lack of O2… any Shorter people involved were just incidental, like Bill Evans
What about the Bands like The Temptations the mill Brothers the starlighters many many bands that were black and sounded White even you were bands like UB40 a lot of the sky and reggae don't sound black they sound British which for the most part is connected to British White everything's cultural everything sounds the way it does to attract what audience it wants to attract or at least what the audience is expecting it's not racial issue as you have said time and time again
Tina Marie was white, sounded black. She Married a black man as I recall). Her music was popular in the black music community.
Arthur Baker, a white jewish guy, played a big part in the creation of hip hop, then theres Rick Rubin, the BeastieBoys,,and a bunch of other white guys at the creation of hip hop, and it was all made on equipment made by Japanese guys. Arthur Baker produced my bands second album, we had the UKs biggest selling hip hop single,,we are white
Bill Laswell, Ian Dury, Kraftwerk all played their part.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Ian Dury tends to get left out of the history but to me that is rap, over a funky disco beat too, as rap as Rappers delight
😂 if you love Andy’s channel don’t bring up Jewish people even in a positive light 😂 you’ll get us all caught up in the new wave of anti semetic stuff going on in far left and far right circles and we don’t need that 😂😂😂
@@misterknightowlandco far right?????
@@misterknightowlandco Arthur Baker is a bit of a leftie with TDS, he blocked me on FB for supporting Trump
There is , of course , the fact tha modern music started in Europe, Germany Italian Russia are cultures that come to mind ,
Who cares if the chicken or the egg came first, I just enjoy a great ommolette.
Andy, don't be riled up by idiots. Water and ducks back springs to mind.
"Nobody owns the pleasure of tones"-- Frank Black
And who is the ugliest now?
Tower Bridge or Disneyland?