Is There Really A Difference? On Grain Vs Off Grain Distilling
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Ohhhh boy this is a test I have been excited to do for a LONG time and guess what? I snuck it into the last big video. Lets touch on the theory and then see if I can really taste a difference.
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I often include affiliate links in my videos and descriptions. This will not change the price for you at all, but the seller will give me a small kickback. Cool eh?
it'd be interesting to see if fermenting on/off grain has the same effect.
I love these kinds of experimental videos! There only is one thing that’s bothering me about the results. The flavour differences described are bready and umami (vegetable stock). Both of which I associate more with yeast character than that of grain. Especially, the umami flavour which probably comes from free amino acids, is not likely to come from the grain because most free amino acids are taken up by the yeast during fermentation. So, for further experimentation it can be a good idea to also distil a batch with part of the yeast cake. This can rule out the possibility that the yeast attached to the grain is causing the release of lipids and amino acids during the distillation.
Solid test with definitive results. My favorite kind of experiment:-)
Once again an outstanding and informative video, would like to see you do a series on the options for on grain distilling equipment.
A third taste could have been a nice blend of the two.
Jesse, this topic is a mind-blower! I tried fermenting on grain but never had the gear to distill on-grain. I didn’t like on-grain fermentation and never knew why. I make whiskey like I make beer, except for the boil. I even make bourbon off-grain now. For those interested, Kegland makes a roller mill that uses diamond coated rollers which they claim will grind corn, and a better grind will improve efficiency, which is one reason commercial bourbon companies ferment on grain. The podcast from Single Malt Matters you linked is also great. This is a gem of a video, mate!
Muchas gracias por todos sus aportes amigo. Hago mis prácticas con un alambique que construí y he obtenido buenos resultados, pero aún soy nuevo en el tema. Gracias 🇪🇨
Could do an extreme comparison, have one wash ferment/distill on grain compare to one that wasn't fermented/distilled on grain.
Hm, after seeing this, I'd be very interested to know whether or not the same differences applied to distilling on or off fruit and how that kind of experiment would play out.. I remember you saying in a video how you feel you should do more with fruit 😁
Bump
+1
Hm 🤔 Interesting!
I absolutely agree, Brandy has always been my drink of choice and I would personally love to see more fruit-based videos, and would absolutely be interested in seeing this experiment.
Probably does, still curious!
Awesome input....... You're a legend and we all love how you do all you do...... Thank you for all your experiences!!
This information is new to me but not surprising. You’ve opened up a whole new chapter. Thank you.
Jesse , I’ve fermented on grain and off grain many times and I must say that for Whiskey , I’ve had much better end results from on grain fermentation ( not on grain distillation ). Fermenting on the grain Carrie’s over much more flavour and just a better likker . I make my vodka out of 100% corn and it’s fermented off the grain for a cleaner end result . Just my two bits buddy , runner slow and drink er fast .. Lol
It is a good thing to know that there is a difference because if I was aloud to do this in the states I was thinking of trying it
I think it would be interesting to see the difference between aging low wines before a spirit run vs aging after the spirit run for white spirits. In theory would the aged low wines produce more esters (and a greater variety of esters) and reduce the unusable heads compared to the aged spirit run in the final product?
Really? Do you mean aging in glass or forced aging?
@@nothinghere1996 I guess either could work. It'd take time/heat in a sealed container for the esterification process to happen.
Very interesting. I've always noticed a difference in flavor between American and Irish/Scotch whiskey and that makes sense why. Great video. Thanks for the information ✌🏼.
Oh good God. Emo kids and grumpy teens. Gotta love that description. It made me think of two sisters on that 80s MTv cartoon Daria. Lol
A cooler fermenting yeast will bring out less corniness if you wanna ferment on grain and distill on grain.
Fermenting low 70s will result in way less corniness
Wow - What a great Podcast on Single malts... Thank you for bringing it to my attention! Cheers
Been doing on grain through a thumper for a long time.time saver and makes a good drop.you know your getting evey drop out of your mash this way
Do you do a one and done run like this through the thumper, or do you do this as a stripping run and follow it up with a spirit run?
@@tomschuh6301 strip the a cleanup run.and then a spirit run.i like triple distilled
distilling on the grain makes perfect sense for flavor and for fuel. thank you!
Cheers mate
I was drinking some sweet tea when I was like. What would happen if you fermented sweet tea? Good idea? Bad idea? Idk, I think it would make a great video
After seeing some vids, some people do this. But I want to see it distilled. What do you think?
The on grain distillation also offers more to the sour mash process. The stillage used for that process will probably produce more esters in the final product.
Hey Jessie. Big thumps up here from South Africa. Man, I was always watching your videos as they popped up on UA-cam, so it was always a grab here and grab there, but then I decided....I wanna see where this legend started. So, I am busy watching your videos one by one from the start. Jip, I'm with you from the start with the black backdrop. I am now at the "3 Tags", and going on strong. I had a few years to catch up, but its gonna be a journey I think. So yes buddy, awsome job on the channel, i hope it never ended.
Great experiment! I'm making my first wash now, but I've made a fair bit of beer.
You should do another experiment where you chill the ferment and drop the yeast out of suspension so that you're just left with the fermented flavours and avoid distilling off the yeast cake. I wonder if that clarity and refined flavour will carry through more 🤷♂️
Oohhh yeh, Looks great. I would've done a blend of these, i feel there's a lot to gain by this process and refining the end product. Nice work Jesse.
As a fan of most things rye, I'd love to see you make a couple side-by-side ryes. Maybe age one with a combination of woods, and one with a single wood.
Damn Jesse, you brought up tamales?..... now I gotta go find that food truck again. lol
Wow, thanks for the "single malt matters" heads up.. amazing podcast.
And of course for your content too which i look forward to every week.
Keep it up !
Suggestion.
What about doing a couple of quick malted barley mashes and fermenting them off the grain. With the leftover barley use that room temp enzyme and ferment on the grain. Then compare the difference and try to combine for 2 very different drinks. Some peet would be appreciated. Thanks for the vids.
Nice comparison keep it up. Looking forward to seeing more experiments.
Suggestion: Coming back to this after a year, and after my own (limited so far) on-grain experiments I think more carefully separating a portion of the corn from the yeast will 'relax' the flavor profile a good bit. Maybe just use the upper corn kernals after the yeast has settled.
Taking out a still-full of clear liquid before the on-grain run changed the ratio of ethanol to corn, intensifying the corn's input to the flavor. Take it the other direction with all the liquid and not all of the corn... or just wait and I'll get around to it, but too many rum experiments going on here.
My corn whisky tastes like cloves. Love to make the stuff.
Thank you Jesse!
You’ve come a long way. Getting interesting. Keep chasing. Nice job!
All I need to know is... What's the dress code for a hammer mill operator? If the answer is anything BUT hammer pants then I quit at life.
Great vid Jesse. Super helpful content in terms of helping me to think through whiskey complexities.. It makes me immediately think about Balcones' signature oiliness vs most big brand American whiskies. I always attributed that to pot vs column distillation, not necessarily fermentation or distillation procedure.
Thanks, as a new expression I needed to watch this.
Great video jesse ..keep up the great work
Very interesting my friend.
Excellent experiment. I would love another of the same for grape brandy because there are a lot of schools over here in Europe using both. It would be awesome to hear your take of it
You’re so good at your craft! Would love to see your technique making limoncello…….please?!!
Made two years ago: ua-cam.com/video/fVTXVp3hi6Q/v-deo.html
Thank you for the awesome experiment
Tamales are made from MasaHerina, corn flour made from hominy corn.
I'd love to see you do the same experiment with something sugarcane/molasses rum-based or a potato-vodka
The potatoes are a cool idea! Rum tends to leave only yeast and trub at the bottom, lots of the Mollasses is already suspended in the wash. I like putting one infected dunder in the spirit runs for crazy flavors though
I came across a video about fermenting blackberries or fruits in general with honey to make jam my idea for you is ferment enough fruit for a run with honey then turn that into a mash to ferment further into wine to distill. I wonder if that would bring more flavor or what other flavors may come from the fermented honey fruit just an idea
Could you do a Kombucha distill?
how bout some melons distilling ( watermelon and melon ) ferment or infusions?
Thank you for pushing me in the direction I thought I should go.
filter the liquid if distilling off-grain. makes a perfect clear wash, and still lets the oils through, but blocks out the proteins.. 1-5 micron ish
I would guess a bourbon mash is not launtered out of necessity as opposed to artistry being that a grain bill consisting of over 70% huskless grains (corn, rye and wheat are all husk less) finely milled won't launter or sparge without getting suck or slowing to a crawl. Comparatively a 100% malted barley grist will be a breeze to launter. There are ways around it, a press or adding husks to the grist but those are not really options for moonshiners making bourbon in the mountains. Also maybe in these sort of comparisons it would be helpful to do a blind triangle taste test, otherwise you can end up self confirming a bias'.
Pot stilled verses slightly refined column still on grain. I say this because I know of a distillery in the western US doing something similar with a hybrid still.
Wanna try making some brandy?
Using purely dates (the fruit) there could be an interesting brandy.
Also figs could make an other interesting one?
People please share and make the idea known if you agree.
Ageing them and seeing how they turn out? :)
You should do research on some other psychoactive components of alcoholic beverages like 2m2b humalone ect! There are so many interesting compounds that exist inside these beverages that influence the psychoactive properties of the beverage, many of these compounds are “ congeners” ect and have a diverse array of pharmacology that influences Ethanols pharmacology! Specifically at the gaba a receptor, even gaga-b!! (not that gaba-b is anything special but It’s much more likely to find gaba a activity from my understanding)
you should do more on just all grains in general try different enzymes and grain combinations maybe even how to make stuff to make help converting starches easier
Jess,can you do something like that with barley ,or wheat,hell even rye!!
Was the one in the left the one distilled on grain?
so which one is distilled on the grain? left or right 🤔
Cool video Jesse!
This just fanned the spark from the home distilling on grain video... Wonder how on grain distillation would work using a wort chiller but pumping heated oil through it.
What about flipping the script on this experiment and use a sugar wash for both pots, but one has oatmeal or other grain added in the pot, and distill the difference in that
Day 13. Could you make a distilled video on Planter's Honey Roasted peanuts?
What I like to do is when I am doing multiple stripping runs is run about 1/3 of the the mash on the grain and 2/3 off the grain to get the best of both worlds. Then blend the the outputs of the stripping runs for the spirit run.
Japan is the master! Compare American, Irish, Scotch, Canadian to Japanese!
I bet they would be a win blended!
I'm not sure if you have done it or if it's possible but what about sunflower seeds
Jesse! I’m some what chuffed about being the first one to like and comment! as always, I’m a fan of your uploads and I’m particularly in this one- I appreciate your honesty. Keep up the great work mate
A lot of the compounds that are not water soluble will be soluble in the high proof alcohol though
I haven't done any grain mashes yet, but I did dabble a ton with fruit ones, and I will say it's the same in those cases if not a little more so. The difference is night and day although I have to mention that when it comes to fruit mashes, if the fruits have large or pits/seeds (plums, peaches, apricots and so on) the ratios that should be used when distilling should go to 1/4 of the still's capacity as fruit and the rest liquid, rather than 1/3 of the still's capacity as fruit and the rest liquid (grapes, apples, pears and so on), because distilling with the pits/seeds can and most of the time will make the distillate bitter because of the large amount of pits/seeds.
If using fruits, best to remove all pits/seeds before mash-in.
@@rocketsroc You are correct! Especially when you do small batches or if you work on an industrial scale, but if you do it at home and you have to deal with several hundred kilograms of fruit during the harvest season, you're not gonna have the time or resources to do that... therefore, you adapt.
Could you not add alcohol to help dissolve some of the oils/proteins?
I would love to see this expirement done with a Single malt Scotch. Using something like Golden Promise Malt Or a Mild Malt.
So... How do you manage to distill on grain without scorching the grain? (Gas, electric?) Asking for a friend.
I'm currently doing an oatmeal mash. After i cooked it i strained it all out. I used a brewing bag to removethe solids. Now they are fermenting. Even with the water lock you can smell oatmeal cookies. But the question i have is that the wash was so thick should i cut the wash with distilled water to prevent foaming? Tap water isn't good out my way.
I think it's intuition that obviously some flavor is going to carry over on grain, especially if it's a pot distillation. If you have the kettle space I don't see why you wouldn't try it. Watch for scorching, false bottom would be good or blend it so it stays suspended during the boil. It's gonna have more grain flavor obviously.
I've noticed you don't charcoal mellow anything. Are you going to in the future, and what are your thoughts and experiences with/without charcoal filtering???
Just in time, I'm ordering an air still soon and starting my journey. Watched Popcorn Dutton's one last run and got inspired, went full blown autistic and been researching.
Almost bought 3 other kinds of cheaper stills and settles on an air still after finding your meme stills.
Just started worrying about grain mash or wash anf then stumbled on this
Sorry for my stupid question: the glass next to the cask is from on-grain distillation, american style and it tastes like "scotch"?
did the on-grain distillation get all of the solids from the fermentation? It sounds like you had a higher concentration of solids which would make the effect of on grain distillation more pronounced. Great experiment.
can you distil Yorkshire tea
Awesome 👏
"It tastes like... depression." Pretty much sums up that on grain description 😂
Just wondering maybe somebody can answer if you can put all the solids in a mesh bag you know those special bags you can buy for the fermentation bucket will you get the same result as leaving the solids mixed in with the liquids kind of a pain in the butt separating the solids from the liquids.
Where did you get that basket/press set up? I've been looking for just that item and haven't found it. PLEASE! PLEASE! As you know, handling a brew bag filled with 10 pounds of soaking wet grain is dfficult, to say the least.
I would love to see more on the genio 50 is that somthing you are planning on doing?
I would like to see you blend those 2 samples together to see what you get.
Try blending the two. Might be interesting.
So which side was distilled on grain? I like your videos but it would help if you put labels in front each sample when comparing comparing multiple things.
I think he only mentioned it once - about 2 minutes into the video. The on-grain on Jesse's left and clear on his right.
Prefermentation test👍. On and off grain.
The on grain. Consider the descriptor "prickly", like a cactus.
They put a lot of cinnamon flavors in whiskey and other spirits... Cinnamon comes from the bark of the tree. I wonder what would happen if you got some cassia wood instead of the bark, charred it a bit and used it as an aging stave. Just occurred to me.
Would filering the grungy one through charcoal
Help
Its the yeast, not the grain, you can prove this by removing the grain rinsing, letting the yeast settle out (remove) then add the grain back in. You can also redo this experiment but only remove the grain then distill half with yeast and half clear......
Was the off-grain sample comprised of only the clear liquid that could be scooped out, or was a press used to squeeze more from the grain?
How do you make moonshine with no burn?
has anyone ever tried putting low wines into the previously used grain barrel to extract something else? adds a whole other heap of steps but worth a test....
If gas prices get any higher I am going to have to get some more 304 stainless and weld up a stiller, one big enough to use radiant heat to heat the house all winter... negating most of the production costs. 🤣
Mr Ducan said in clean out clean
Exactly why there is no such thing as certainty in anything related to distilling spirits when it comes to the end result. And...not necessarily better or worse, just different.
Jessie please do a show on how stupid it is to run a thumper using electric. Please. Please. I'll come over and help you. But also run a pot still cranking hot using wood or coal and using a thumper out of necessity. There are too many misinformed peeps out there. I'll show you my set up I ain't bullshitting.
So on-grain has a dirty more full mouth flavour and off-grain has a cleaner crispier light flavour is what I got from that? PS. Jesse when are we gonna see more fruit brandy and that new fancy pants fruit press you got :D
Where did you get your fruit press? Amazon? Love your videos!
Is this fruit press still available? The Amazon link seems to link to a general page of different fruit presses.