@@NotFlappy12 true, though to give just a bit of credit, composite recurve bows like the one shown in the unit are specifically designed to be more punchy when compared to, say, longbows, both because of how their laminated, and the way the limbs curve away from the archer
Historically though it would have made more sense for the archer that ignores pierce armor to use a crossbow. Crossbows were very good at piercing armor and stayed in use even into the age of gunpowder for that purpose. Modern armor piercing ammunition are basically giant crossbow bolts. If it ignored pierce armor I would think it would have a very low rate of fire but a fairly high attack. It would be like a winch crossbow. A problem though is that the most prolific user of those historically were the Franks were the Arbalest.
Though composite bows were used by cavalry archers. In terms of efficiency a compound bow is inferior to a mono wood bow. However the upside of a compound bow is that you can get more power from a smaller bow with a shorter draw which is good for cavalry archers. Compound bow would fit better as an upgrade to cavalry archers.
Fun Fact:- For an extra bit of trivia, the Armenian Composite Bowman doesn't just seem to be wielding a composite bow (which refers to the materials the bow is made of), but also a reflex bow (which refers to the shape of the bow). Despite the unit being on foot, reflex bows are most well known for being used by steppe nomad horse archers, like the infamous Mongols. In fact the Mangudai should also be a composite bowman! The advantage of both the make and shape is that you can get a lot of power from a fairly compact bow, making it ideal for use on horseback. For foot archery longbows are perfectly viable, and also much easier to make.
There are huge and long composite bows, too, like Manchu bows, so it's not just about being short and compact. Materials allow bows to be shaped in various reflexive shapes, which allow more optimal energy storage, which is why composite bows are generally at least 5, 10% more efficient than self bows. With light arrows, it's advantage is generally even greater, composite bows are faster.
It’s just a different categorization system based on shape not material although many asiatic cultures used elite composite bows so this unit name is misleading
The weather plays one of the biggest roles in which types of bow to use too. The wet of the Western European nations, particularly the British Isles would be terrible for older composite bow glues of the time - which would be easily sloughed off there. The Armenians being such an old state (that has moved like European ones/invading peoples to an extent) probably used them from when they lived near Tarsus to the Highlands they now call home.
I love the intro with the original "Composite Bowman". I'm old enough to remember playing the AOE demo on a LAN and we all ended up as Minoans with armies of Composite Bowmen backed by stone throwers (the bronze age catapult).
Pretty cool unit. I really like fast creation time and armor ignoring. But they are instantly S-Tier because of their sick cape, them and Teutonic Knights have the best looks because of their capes.
They sound like a supplement glass cannon unit. Maybe not essentially something you want to mass as your primary/only unit, but rather something you sprinkle in the combined arms scenario.
I think they are a great counter to hussars and eagles. Not only because they ignore armor, but also because of the quite decent melee armor. 2+3 is quite good against the low atk of hussars.
They are more of a support unit rather than one meant to be the brunt of a force. I like it, like mixing in a few sharpshooters to take down more dangerous enemies while infantry is holding the line. Could be a decent support for champions in case they get into a fight with Paladins so you don't have to choose between Spearman or range support. Overall not a broken unit at all, just a bit finicky to fit in.
CONJECTURE: simple bow (actually called self bow) have straight forward mechanics, their energy is directly proportional to their physical size. Composite bow (which are all recurve bows) are designed in such a way that they held much more tension which then could be translated into kinetic energy. so Similarly sized self bows vs composite bow's arrow would have dramatically more kinetic energy. because of this, the adjustment required to offset drop off of an arrow at medium distance would be lesser. for arrows with less energy, archer needs to shoot in balistic trejectory, even outright indirect fire. similarly sized composite bow would have had to shoot less indirectly or in minority of cases not indirect at all. i think thats the reason.
The crossbow firing in an arc while the composite bowman fires in a straight trajectory is kind of ironic, it would make more sense the other way around or at least both firing in a straight line. Having the Longbowman in effect be the only AoE2 archer unit to shoot in an arc would make them stand out even more as the long range unit they are.
Regarding the flat arc of the arrow, that might be a nod to realism. I'm not an archer, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that bows with a higher ratio of draw weight to arm length tend to shoot flatter. This higher ratio can be achieved through materials (a composite bow), shape (a reflexed/recurved bow), and/or through multiple leverage systems (a modern compound bow).
Did you watch the video fully? Skirms could barely be considered their counter, if at all. Yes, you still shouldnt take fights with them, but if you're forced to, at least it's not a clean sweep that it would be with arbalests. Honestly, from looking at video, they look like the perfect noob catcher, only siege or true anti-archer UU being good counters. Though I want to see how crazy they could get in some heavy micro player's hands, like Viper
Very curious on what's going to be said about Warrior Priests, because I only did one mission in the campaign and I absolutely love the unit. A monk that has armor, can actually attack, and can heal each other and units? Brilliant!
Great video. Seeing this my thoughts about the Composite Bowmen is that the unit is very well balanced due to his special hability(ignore armor). They had a 100% accouracy despite lack of Thumb Ring, a tech that also increase attack speed of arrows. They dont have a long range or high base damage to compete with crossbows or beat anti-archers, and also had a little more HP and armor to help them go on range to attack. Also, as mentioned on the final of the video, the Armenians focused on infantry, who had a little more HP, where you can use them on the front while the composites are right behind striking the armored foes the oponent could use. A good combination indeed!
I always liked archer civs the most and while Armenians aren't officially an archer civ, this unique unit alone makes them a contender for my favorites list. I just love both the armor ignoring attack and straight flying arrows!
When you patrol or attack move ranged units you should put them on stand ground. It will make them pass through the ones already fighting, instead of bumping into them, and start fighting sooner. They do bunch up so be careful against units with a splash damage.
As a follow up to this video, my main question has always been: is the elite upgrade even worth it? Just 1 melee and 5 HP for that high cost does not seem like it is better than just making a bunch more of the composite bowmen...
Lithuanian Leitis (cavalry) ignores enemy armour (by default) Dravidian urumi swordsman ignores armour after upgrading unique tech wootz steel. Finally Georgians have composite-bowman that ignores enemy pierce armour. Imagine these three civs are played as a team would be OP
In imperial age, where the composite bowman starts to shine, many civs already have hand cannoneers which are pretty decent against infantry, high-armor units and even siege weapons, and can be trained at archery ranges. I don't see this unit being much better nor being easier to mass than hand cannoneers.
after playing through part of the Thoros campaign, it feels like the Composite Bowman do ignore the anti-arrow bonus that Rams. idk if they actually do but it felt that the composite take down rams quite fast compared to arbalesters
Yeah I felt that too playing the campaign, but maybe it was because I massed a good amount of them. But they definitely seemed like they were melting rams. Not mangudai level but definitely faster than a normal archer would seem. However when they ended up fighting some ships they definitely didn’t ignore armour then
Nah they do 1 damage to rams, I clicked the rams to make sure. It's just that 30 archers take down a battering ram in 6 volleys, and a capped ram in 7, so if you have enough it still feels fast
I was just wondering about this last night when I checked out the Armenians in the DLC. The stat differences were so minor that I figured I should just let you explain it 😂
2:35 It would make sense from the point of physics, especially considering their 'armour piercing' property. An arrow shot at an arc first has to lose ALL the energy it was imparted with from being shot from the bow, and then gets back some potential energy once it starts to drop, which will be A LOT LESS, than if the arrow was shot straight, and even if someone were to shoot an arrow at a very steep angle, (A. it would completely destroy any accuracy due to wind being stronger the higher you go, and the arrow would be in that 'higher-wind-area' for much longer) B. There's a 'hard-limit' on the potential energy imparted on the arrow again from the 'drop' anyway, because of terminal velocity. Whereas if you shoot the arrow straight, all that power you get from the bow is directly translated to how hard the arrow is going to 'punch', it also means you can actually aim, and expect the arrow to land roughly in the place you were aiming at (which, considering the size of humans, and especially army formations, even rudimentary ones, is generally much bigger than that of shooting targets, basically guarantees a hit with even half-way competent archer, and would make things like ballistic calculations, especially on such a short distance, much less necessary) BUT, the negative will be shorter range, because that arrow is still going to eventually lose it's energy, just like the one shot at an arc, but it won't have the 'drop'. I'd say the way Composite bowman functions in the game is very well complimented by the way their arrows fly, and it's much more than just a stylistic choice, or AOE1 reference.
It's a valid question phrasing but it always makes me laugh because in the Australian vernacular, the specific 'how good is X' phrasing is generally rhetorical. Yeah, Composites -are- great! Rally round them
longbows don't seem nearly as good anymore, nearly all Civ specific archers have more health than them. Longbowman need like 5-10hp boost I reckon or perhaps fire arrows every 1.9 instead of 2 seconds.
So basically, in most cases you would want it over the generic unit, but there are still situations where you would go with arbs, even assuming you have castle castle production available. The unit is solid, but can be countered comfortably by basically any civ (they all have mangonels). That's pretty much the ideal of a unique unit. Strong, but doesn't make the generic completely obsolete (as opposed to falling into the mangudai trap, where there's basically no reason to ever use Mongol cav archers as long as you have castles available).
I like that the composite bowman fires in a straight line. I don't think it's a throwback to the AOE1 unit, I think it is an attempt to make an animation that better reflects reality. Real archers did not shoot in arcs unless they absolutely had to, archers need to see what they are shooting at to hit it. Medieval art overwhelming depicts archers shooting straight at their targets and not in arcs. AOE2 is so old that over its 25 years, a better understanding of how weapons were used and bows fired has become more widely known over time and has become part of AOE2's newer content.
I wouldn't trust medieval art. They didn't know about ballistics until very late, and it was thought that cannonballs, for instance fired in a straight line until they ran out of momentum, falling directly downwards.
@@Ymgarl I would trust that people from the era would know what battles looked like and how the people in them fought. There is a section from Maurice's Strategikon written in the 7th century that talks about how the Roman cavalry was equipped; he specifically states that the front ranks of mounted archers should always shoot straight, with enough space between each man for the next few ranks to shoot straight between them, and only the back ranks shoot in an arc if necessary, that they prioritize a high rate of fire over prefect accuracy, and that the best archers be deployed in the front ranks and the worst in the back ranks since, because the back ranks are shooting in an arc, they cannot see what they are shooting at anyway so their poor skill is minimized and put to maximum use.
I'm not disputing whether archers were firing more directly than depicted in aoe2, just stating that the artworks are not likely to represent accurate depictions of medieval combat.
I think composite bowmen will hard counter high pierce armour infantry units like gulam, eagles and huscarl. But against other range units I think they will suffer even in late game. Usually with arbs, you want to keep them alive and do damage from the back. But because of the lack of range, CB will die trying to close the distance against skirms/arbs. And it’s a gold unit so it really hurts to have them die.
The composite bowman feel more akin to throwing axemen than to other archers to me. Also something cool about them is that they're good to go without the elite tech. You need bracer and chemistry (something to pick up for defenses, too) and they're good. With their innate 100% accuracy, they are a decent archer unit that are incredibly light on upgrade costs. No thumb ring, crossbow or arbalest upgrades save quite a few resources. This off-sets the 10 wood by a long shot. So you can make them as supportive units even as castle age version when you need them rather than having to commit to a tech switch into arbs.
They gonna be BUUUUUSTED, especially in large messy team game fights. x9 the potential damage output for 10 wood, and more tanky. They win vs archer counters, without meatshields. I wonder how many civs wont have any reliable cost effective counter vs massed composites.
I feel like the unit is so strong in a vacuum that it's completely gimping Armenians as a civ. They'll have some excellent matchups but they'll never be allowed to have BBC or possibly even Siege Engineers which is just a death sentence for an infantry civ.
@@johnxina5126 they'll have a good mid game halb+monk timing, on closed maps especially, but I'd be concerned about how they can close out games in late castle onwards. They might turn out fine in the long run, I'm just not a huge fan of the unit because of how much it limits balance options around the civ and pushes them towards all in Castle Age play.
After first games with Armenians I would a say that Composite Bowman is quite decent unique unit. Combined with some Warriors Priests and other infantry makes a very useable army combination.
pssst... just before any patches will come i will tell some secret.... the composite bowman + mangonel combo is totally broken - bowman will eat any knights and light cav that will try to snipe onager and onager will kill any skirmishers and scorpions which as it turns out are especially effective against bowman.
I know it's for gameplay, but in historical terms a composite bow piercing better than an xbow is pretty wild. No bow disregarded armor (even firearms don't *entirely* disregard it), but xbow was the best at defeating it before guns became good enough across the board to replace pretty much everything a single guy can hold in warfare.
One thing that you forgot to mention in the video is that Armenians don't get thumb ring. Generic crossbows/Arbalests with full upgrades actually trade notably better against them than is shown in the video as a result. It also offsets some of the damage difference, as unless the Composite bowmen are dealing ~18% extra damage per hit or more (Granted, micro often results in a slightly lower practical attack rate for crossbows/arbs, but lack of thumb ring is still noteworthy), their DPS is actually lower than for typical crossbow/arb civs.
Paired with the tanky armenian infantry units (champions or warrior priests) as meat shield, that's a very potent combination if the enemy relies on melee units.
Composite bows were specially made to be fired while on horseback, it was their sole purpose to be shot at Quick succession while mounting and steering a horse, it is bizarre and very strange looking at a foot Archer using a composite bow.
I am still confused as to how this unit will fit into the overall Armenian civ design, since this is clearly not meant to be a heavy hitter against archers or gunpowder (which are traditional counters against heavy infantry play); but are actually meant to tackle eagles and cav. But the Armenians already do this pretty well with their own champs and halbs (albeit they have no discount or bonuses other than getting them early). Very curious to see how this civ will be played, and I have a feeling this civ's identity will soon get changed drastically.
I would like for a unique unit to have a dirt cheap gunpowder unit. One that just like the Karambit takes up half a population space and costs about the same. It would have a fairly decent attack of like 12 but an extremely low rate of fire and an accuracy of like 15%. It's dps under testing conditions would be below the arbalest but it's burst damage would be absolutely devastating. That is actually how hand cannons were used historically. They were inferior to archers in pretty much every way except that archery took a lot of training and so hand cannons could be fielded in much larger numbers.
3:18 the composite bowman shot seems to pierce through shrimvasha rider. Does it mean one single shot could trigger the dodge mechanic in against a group of shrimvasha rider due to it's straight shot mechanic? This is in contrast to literally every other unit where the shot just stops/or disappear after hitting.
You should also compare them to Hand Canoneer, Janjisary, and meele ranged units (TX, Gbeto, Chakram and Mameluke) as looks loke CompBow will have simmilar role - killing meele infantry counters. Also, high damagemof gunpowder and meele damage of others are basicly the same as pierce armor ignoring mechanic.
Have to say, it's very silly that composite bowmen ignore armour and longbows don't. Composite bows historically let a bow have an *effectively* lighter draw weight for throw power. It isn't like modern composite bows where it makes them have a massively higher punch. Mongol horse bows were recurve and composite. But they didn't have more punch than a Longbow. Plus ofc a large part of armour penetration irl for bows is the type of head being fired.
Giving an armor ignoring Archer unique unit to a non-archer specialised civ was a really smart moves by the devs, I feel like. It helps balance an otherwise pretty overpowered ability that would quickly be broken if, say, Ethiopians with full archer techs plus their civ bonus of faster attack speed had them, for example.
a civ bonus would not affect a unique unit. the unit's base values would be lowered in a way that the result is the value it was designed to have. civ bonuses only change generic units. that said armenians have full upgrades.
@@BayWa4eva Both your statements are wrong. To make it short here are examples for both: Longbowmen from Britons get bonus range from their civ bonus and Armenians don't get Thumb Ring.
@@JJBeauregard1 the elite longbowman is designed to have more range than arbs and generic castles, but it simply grows with the arbs. that is meant to make it not op straight out of the castle. without yeomen and the briton bonus range, base longbowman would probably have 7 range and elite 9 to make up for it. that is a big buff however. same for composite bowmen: yes armenians lack thumb ring, but as you may have noticed, the bowmen have 100% accuracy anyways, so thumb ring is already baked into the unit. technically unique units are affected by civilization bonuses. practically they aren't. they would get the same numbers without civ bonus.
@@BayWa4eva I get your logic but I still think it's a weird way to look at it. For example you're saying Composite Bowman would have an even slower rate of fire of the general base 2.0 for most archer units if they had access to Thumb Ring or that Elite-Longbowmen would have a base range of 8 if their civ bonus wouldn't apply (or 9 if you count the tech as well) to still get to the final 12 range. I think it's a flawed way to look at it because you're still ultimately saying that certain units aren't affected by certain bonuses when they are.
@@JJBeauregard1 what happens internally only matters in very specific scenarios (for example a mod that multiplies bonuses). it doesn't matter for balancing which you meant. actually a unique unit gets better the less updates it has because it is faster and cheaper to max out and the final result is the same. that is especially visible for gunpowder UUs.
I don't know how I feel about the Composite Bowman. The Huskarl is the perfect Goth unit since they're an infantry civ, infantry naturally loses to archers, but the Huskarl is an infantry that beats archers. For Armenians, an infantry civ, they're also going to struggle against archers, except they were given a unit that's better against cavalry and other infantry than archers. Numerically, Comp Bows are fantastic, ignoring armor is huge, but what kind of role is it really filling in for the civ..?
Stupid Theory: the Armenians were meant to be a cavalry civ at some point. This would tie more closely into their history and explain why their unique unit is strongest against heavy cavalry, something the Halberdier already deals with fairly well.
6 base attack is a bit overkill on a unit that ignores pierce armor. This means they'll do 10 damage guaranteed per shot with all archer blacksmith upgrades + chemistry, and so that's 100 damage per shot if you mass 10 of them. In fact, all it would take to kill a Paladin with Bloodlines is 2 shots from 9 massed Compies. I honestly think that's broken if you pair their damage output with how quickly they're made. I honestly think their base pierce in Castle Age should be lowered to 3, and have the Elite have 4 base pierce. This way you'd have to invest into them to steamroll units with pierce armor. Xbow without smith upgrades vs Elite Skirm: 1 damage. Xbow with Fletching + Bodkin vs Elite Skirm: 3 damage Compie without smith upgrades vs Elite Skirm: 6 damage. Compie with Fletching + Bodkin vs Elite Skirm: 8 damage. Nerfed Compie without smith upgrades vs Elite Skirm: 3 damage. Nerfed Compie with Fletching + Bodkin vs Elite Skirm: 5 damage. This way by the time you get all the upgrades, the Elite Compies would be doing 8 damage per shot. By lowering their base attack to 3 in castle, and making their elite variant have 4, there is more value in investing into smith upgrades for them, and also their elite upgrade. Also; I just think doing 6 ~ 8 damage to an Elite Skirm is stupid via an archer in Castle Age.
Uhm so do they ignore pierce armor on the onagers? It felt like they weren't hitting very hard. I think they're probably better against cav archers without micro too in imp. Usually thumb ring (accuracy and fire rate) and parthian tactics (+2 pierce armor) makes cav archers a soft counter to regular archers if there's no meat shields in front. I don't think you get the elite upgrade till you're pop capped.
I think Composite is much more of a Imperial Age unit. During Castle Age the 10 extra wood compared to Crossbowmen is much more important as than in Imperial Age ; you're likely unable to have many castles to build them fast if needed ; and Crossbows do sort of fine vs Knights but Arbalesters do much worse vs Paladins
I just stomped a nomad game with them, they shred cav almost like Genoese. They get destroyed by any other archer or skirm though. You aren't going to do much eco damage these things, but they're 100% in Armenian's best comp.
This is pretty much a paladin vs leitis situation all over again. Wich on one to pick and when, the generic unit or the armor ignoring unique ? I can see low pierce armor factions making the composite bowmen not worth the hassle, but then what would be their answer to good ol' regular crossbows ( espescially if they have mediocre siege) ?
They tried to rein in its wildly expanding strength in Imp by making the Elite upgrade hot garbage, but there is a secret upside to that. In a fast imp situation you only need bracer and chemistry and you have an almost unstoppable unit. Forgo the elite upgrade for 10 or 15 more mass and you will see how truly OP this unit is. Once again the devs don't know what they are doing.
Similar in use to genoese xbow i think. Early on xbow are just all around better because easier to make and better to micro. Genoese or composite get much better though against cavalry with armor upgrades. In both cases the elite upgrade is trash and not worth it but the castle age unit is much better than even arbalests against cavalry. Difference is that genoese are better vs cavalry (9 net dmg vs cav typically vs composite 6-8) and low armour targets/siege whereas composite are better elsewhere. On the whole composite seems a bit better than genoese and a solid unit to transition into especially as from skirmishers.
So in theory, we're only making these things against heavy cavalry, or high pierce armor infantry like the huskarl, and should otherwise focus on infantry, monks, and siege?
That's a very expensive Elite upgrade, considering it's only a +5 HP and +1 Melee armour improvement. And -2 sec creation time, I suppose. But still... Melee armour for archers generally is much less useful than pierce armour.
I wonder how the Byzantine v. Armenians matchup would play out, you have halbs and champs earlier than any other civ against the hardest infantry counter around.
The straight arrow flight helps reinforce the "short powerful punch" idea behind the unit
Yes! I actually thought that's the idea behind it rather than the callback to AOE1, though I guess there's no reason it can't be both
It's quite strange though, considering that that's what a crossbow is for in real life
It does look cooler
@@NotFlappy12 true, though to give just a bit of credit, composite recurve bows like the one shown in the unit are specifically designed to be more punchy when compared to, say, longbows, both because of how their laminated, and the way the limbs curve away from the archer
@@NestorKYATNone of them are punching through plate armor though.
the composite bowman is already the coolest archer because of the cape!
This guy knows what's important
Historically though it would have made more sense for the archer that ignores pierce armor to use a crossbow. Crossbows were very good at piercing armor and stayed in use even into the age of gunpowder for that purpose.
Modern armor piercing ammunition are basically giant crossbow bolts.
If it ignored pierce armor I would think it would have a very low rate of fire but a fairly high attack. It would be like a winch crossbow. A problem though is that the most prolific user of those historically were the Franks were the Arbalest.
Yes! Looks like something out of a Middle Earth mod.
We all know wearing a cape makes you stronger.
@@MrMarinus18 120mm crossbow bolts are indeed badass
Now that we have composite bowmen can't wait for their new unique counter, the prime bowmen
Their counter is the turkmen they got wreckt by them all their history
Prime Skirmishers
I'm not sure how prime bowmen would be a counter, but maybe I'm failing to see how to factor them in
Though composite bows were used by cavalry archers. In terms of efficiency a compound bow is inferior to a mono wood bow. However the upside of a compound bow is that you can get more power from a smaller bow with a shorter draw which is good for cavalry archers. Compound bow would fit better as an upgrade to cavalry archers.
@@Mepho5175 they did pretty well in the first Nagorno-Karabakh war. Nowadays not so much
Fun Fact:- For an extra bit of trivia, the Armenian Composite Bowman doesn't just seem to be wielding a composite bow (which refers to the materials the bow is made of), but also a reflex bow (which refers to the shape of the bow). Despite the unit being on foot, reflex bows are most well known for being used by steppe nomad horse archers, like the infamous Mongols. In fact the Mangudai should also be a composite bowman! The advantage of both the make and shape is that you can get a lot of power from a fairly compact bow, making it ideal for use on horseback. For foot archery longbows are perfectly viable, and also much easier to make.
There are huge and long composite bows, too, like Manchu bows, so it's not just about being short and compact.
Materials allow bows to be shaped in various reflexive shapes, which allow more optimal energy storage, which is why composite bows are generally at least 5, 10% more efficient than self bows. With light arrows, it's advantage is generally even greater, composite bows are faster.
New head cannon: Mangudai has bonus vs siege is due to the composite bow they have
It’s just a different categorization system based on shape not material although many asiatic cultures used elite composite bows so this unit name is misleading
The weather plays one of the biggest roles in which types of bow to use too. The wet of the Western European nations, particularly the British Isles would be terrible for older composite bow glues of the time - which would be easily sloughed off there. The Armenians being such an old state (that has moved like European ones/invading peoples to an extent) probably used them from when they lived near Tarsus to the Highlands they now call home.
How do you know it is a reflex bow and not a recurve bow that they use?
I love the intro with the original "Composite Bowman". I'm old enough to remember playing the AOE demo on a LAN and we all ended up as Minoans with armies of Composite Bowmen backed by stone throwers (the bronze age catapult).
Minoans Composite Bowmen is nightmare in the Bronze Age
For one of your vids, you need to do a style comparison between all the caped units. as they are the coolest
Your voice is so smooth I think you should start a new series "Spirit of The Raw" on a different platform!
😳
Didn't even think about the flat arrow being a potential advantage!
Pretty cool unit. I really like fast creation time and armor ignoring. But they are instantly S-Tier because of their sick cape, them and Teutonic Knights have the best looks because of their capes.
Berserk entered the chat 😤😜
@bassegoder Woops 😋 But Teutonic Knights are more iconic so they are the poster child for capey boys in Aoe2.
@@inductivegrunt94nah
Red haired and rounded super cool shield mammaaaa
@@bassegoder Yeah, no, Berserks are overrated with how they look compared to the sleek yet stylish Teutonic Chads.
They sound like a supplement glass cannon unit. Maybe not essentially something you want to mass as your primary/only unit, but rather something you sprinkle in the combined arms scenario.
How often do people sprinkle in combined forces even at high levels mass or loose lmao
I think they are a great counter to hussars and eagles. Not only because they ignore armor, but also because of the quite decent melee armor. 2+3 is quite good against the low atk of hussars.
They are more of a support unit rather than one meant to be the brunt of a force. I like it, like mixing in a few sharpshooters to take down more dangerous enemies while infantry is holding the line. Could be a decent support for champions in case they get into a fight with Paladins so you don't have to choose between Spearman or range support. Overall not a broken unit at all, just a bit finicky to fit in.
Ranged halberdiers lol
CONJECTURE: simple bow (actually called self bow) have straight forward mechanics, their energy is directly proportional to their physical size. Composite bow (which are all recurve bows) are designed in such a way that they held much more tension which then could be translated into kinetic energy. so Similarly sized self bows vs composite bow's arrow would have dramatically more kinetic energy. because of this, the adjustment required to offset drop off of an arrow at medium distance would be lesser. for arrows with less energy, archer needs to shoot in balistic trejectory, even outright indirect fire. similarly sized composite bow would have had to shoot less indirectly or in minority of cases not indirect at all. i think thats the reason.
I just love that the arrow goes in a straight line like the aoe1 archer. So nostalgic.
Great video, but did you have any consideration to the lack of tumb ring in the dps comparisons?
The crossbow firing in an arc while the composite bowman fires in a straight trajectory is kind of ironic, it would make more sense the other way around or at least both firing in a straight line. Having the Longbowman in effect be the only AoE2 archer unit to shoot in an arc would make them stand out even more as the long range unit they are.
Regarding the flat arc of the arrow, that might be a nod to realism. I'm not an archer, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that bows with a higher ratio of draw weight to arm length tend to shoot flatter. This higher ratio can be achieved through materials (a composite bow), shape (a reflexed/recurved bow), and/or through multiple leverage systems (a modern compound bow).
These archers are amazing they can melt though any tough unit but the downside is that they're glass canons and die extremely easily to archers/skirms
Did you watch the video fully? Skirms could barely be considered their counter, if at all. Yes, you still shouldnt take fights with them, but if you're forced to, at least it's not a clean sweep that it would be with arbalests. Honestly, from looking at video, they look like the perfect noob catcher, only siege or true anti-archer UU being good counters. Though I want to see how crazy they could get in some heavy micro player's hands, like Viper
@@LtLukoziuzskirms stull heavily counter them through cost, they could get slight buff honestly
@@stefanandrejcik571Omg archer unit has a counter, buff it! buff every other archer along the way!
@@awagnow ok
Very curious on what's going to be said about Warrior Priests, because I only did one mission in the campaign and I absolutely love the unit. A monk that has armor, can actually attack, and can heal each other and units? Brilliant!
composite bow is a weird choice for a unique unit name, i mean most cavalry archer especially from the nomadic ones are always using composite bow
FOr real, composite bows were common.
Great video. Seeing this my thoughts about the Composite Bowmen is that the unit is very well balanced due to his special hability(ignore armor). They had a 100% accouracy despite lack of Thumb Ring, a tech that also increase attack speed of arrows. They dont have a long range or high base damage to compete with crossbows or beat anti-archers, and also had a little more HP and armor to help them go on range to attack.
Also, as mentioned on the final of the video, the Armenians focused on infantry, who had a little more HP, where you can use them on the front while the composites are right behind striking the armored foes the oponent could use. A good combination indeed!
As long as enemies don't have SO and scorps. Then is insta gg
I always liked archer civs the most and while Armenians aren't officially an archer civ, this unique unit alone makes them a contender for my favorites list. I just love both the armor ignoring attack and straight flying arrows!
When you patrol or attack move ranged units you should put them on stand ground. It will make them pass through the ones already fighting, instead of bumping into them, and start fighting sooner. They do bunch up so be careful against units with a splash damage.
maybe in tests but it's risky to use hold in real games. Better to move the units up so backline is in range
Ah, yes, the composite bowman, the anti anti archer unit archer unit
As a follow up to this video, my main question has always been: is the elite upgrade even worth it? Just 1 melee and 5 HP for that high cost does not seem like it is better than just making a bunch more of the composite bowmen...
It's like 10 units
Lithuanian Leitis (cavalry) ignores enemy armour (by default)
Dravidian urumi swordsman ignores armour after upgrading unique tech wootz steel.
Finally Georgians have composite-bowman that ignores enemy pierce armour.
Imagine these three civs are played as a team would be OP
A very nice looking post imp unit for sure, just gotta have the counter to siege and you're set.
Like what? Armenians have bad cavalry, no Bombard Cannons, no siege engineers, and no anti-siege specialists like Eagle Warriors.
@@Salnaxthier hussars are perfectly serviceable.
@@9051team They have none.
The straight firing arrow is definitely an AoE1 reference, the bow's shooting sound is also similar to the AoE1 bow sound rather than the AoE2 sound.
Can you make a video comparing Composite Bowman with Chu-Ku-Nu. I feel like they are a bit similar, high damage dealer but have short range.
@@booradley6832 Can you give the link?
So all other composite bowmen are not elite eh? from famous composite bowmen cultures like Mongol, Turks, Persians, Chinese, Koreans, Indians, etc
Shut up please ;)
Nice
A new video on CBT (Composite Bowman Tactics)
In imperial age, where the composite bowman starts to shine, many civs already have hand cannoneers which are pretty decent against infantry, high-armor units and even siege weapons, and can be trained at archery ranges. I don't see this unit being much better nor being easier to mass than hand cannoneers.
after playing through part of the Thoros campaign, it feels like the Composite Bowman do ignore the anti-arrow bonus that Rams. idk if they actually do but it felt that the composite take down rams quite fast compared to arbalesters
Yeah I felt that too playing the campaign, but maybe it was because I massed a good amount of them. But they definitely seemed like they were melting rams. Not mangudai level but definitely faster than a normal archer would seem. However when they ended up fighting some ships they definitely didn’t ignore armour then
Nah they do 1 damage to rams, I clicked the rams to make sure. It's just that 30 archers take down a battering ram in 6 volleys, and a capped ram in 7, so if you have enough it still feels fast
I was just wondering about this last night when I checked out the Armenians in the DLC. The stat differences were so minor that I figured I should just let you explain it 😂
2:35 It would make sense from the point of physics, especially considering their 'armour piercing' property. An arrow shot at an arc first has to lose ALL the energy it was imparted with from being shot from the bow, and then gets back some potential energy once it starts to drop, which will be A LOT LESS, than if the arrow was shot straight, and even if someone were to shoot an arrow at a very steep angle, (A. it would completely destroy any accuracy due to wind being stronger the higher you go, and the arrow would be in that 'higher-wind-area' for much longer) B. There's a 'hard-limit' on the potential energy imparted on the arrow again from the 'drop' anyway, because of terminal velocity.
Whereas if you shoot the arrow straight, all that power you get from the bow is directly translated to how hard the arrow is going to 'punch', it also means you can actually aim, and expect the arrow to land roughly in the place you were aiming at (which, considering the size of humans, and especially army formations, even rudimentary ones, is generally much bigger than that of shooting targets, basically guarantees a hit with even half-way competent archer, and would make things like ballistic calculations, especially on such a short distance, much less necessary)
BUT, the negative will be shorter range, because that arrow is still going to eventually lose it's energy, just like the one shot at an arc, but it won't have the 'drop'.
I'd say the way Composite bowman functions in the game is very well complimented by the way their arrows fly, and it's much more than just a stylistic choice, or AOE1 reference.
Composite bowmen should have the longest range of any archer, for historical accuracy’s sake.
It's a valid question phrasing but it always makes me laugh because in the Australian vernacular, the specific 'how good is X' phrasing is generally rhetorical. Yeah, Composites -are- great! Rally round them
Great video as always SotL. You never disappoint!
longbows don't seem nearly as good anymore, nearly all Civ specific archers have more health than them. Longbowman need like 5-10hp boost I reckon or perhaps fire arrows every 1.9 instead of 2 seconds.
Yeah, I think the actual vendetta of the devs is not against the chinese... it is against britons!
And prolly Aztecs
Yeeh longbows need a buff for sure
Briton players are just nostalgia driven at this point and don't want to move on to better archer civs
@@awagnow Civs need to be balanced not redundant
So basically, in most cases you would want it over the generic unit, but there are still situations where you would go with arbs, even assuming you have castle castle production available. The unit is solid, but can be countered comfortably by basically any civ (they all have mangonels). That's pretty much the ideal of a unique unit. Strong, but doesn't make the generic completely obsolete (as opposed to falling into the mangudai trap, where there's basically no reason to ever use Mongol cav archers as long as you have castles available).
I like that the composite bowman fires in a straight line. I don't think it's a throwback to the AOE1 unit, I think it is an attempt to make an animation that better reflects reality. Real archers did not shoot in arcs unless they absolutely had to, archers need to see what they are shooting at to hit it. Medieval art overwhelming depicts archers shooting straight at their targets and not in arcs. AOE2 is so old that over its 25 years, a better understanding of how weapons were used and bows fired has become more widely known over time and has become part of AOE2's newer content.
long bowman would arc fire sometimes, but crossbows and composite reflex bows are usually fired directly at the target
I wouldn't trust medieval art. They didn't know about ballistics until very late, and it was thought that cannonballs, for instance fired in a straight line until they ran out of momentum, falling directly downwards.
@@Ymgarl I really doubt that. You don't need to know about gravity to get a good feel for it and they weren't strangers to flying objects
@@Ymgarl I would trust that people from the era would know what battles looked like and how the people in them fought. There is a section from Maurice's Strategikon written in the 7th century that talks about how the Roman cavalry was equipped; he specifically states that the front ranks of mounted archers should always shoot straight, with enough space between each man for the next few ranks to shoot straight between them, and only the back ranks shoot in an arc if necessary, that they prioritize a high rate of fire over prefect accuracy, and that the best archers be deployed in the front ranks and the worst in the back ranks since, because the back ranks are shooting in an arc, they cannot see what they are shooting at anyway so their poor skill is minimized and put to maximum use.
I'm not disputing whether archers were firing more directly than depicted in aoe2, just stating that the artworks are not likely to represent accurate depictions of medieval combat.
We, need this man. So badly. Thank you spirit for teaching the AOE community so much
I wish developers understand the concept of composite bow. Which clearly they did not.
Cant wait to see your breakdown of the Warrior Priest
I think composite bowmen will hard counter high pierce armour infantry units like gulam, eagles and huscarl. But against other range units I think they will suffer even in late game. Usually with arbs, you want to keep them alive and do damage from the back. But because of the lack of range, CB will die trying to close the distance against skirms/arbs. And it’s a gold unit so it really hurts to have them die.
They're also slow and worse for raiding due to range
The composite bowman feel more akin to throwing axemen than to other archers to me. Also something cool about them is that they're good to go without the elite tech. You need bracer and chemistry (something to pick up for defenses, too) and they're good. With their innate 100% accuracy, they are a decent archer unit that are incredibly light on upgrade costs. No thumb ring, crossbow or arbalest upgrades save quite a few resources. This off-sets the 10 wood by a long shot.
So you can make them as supportive units even as castle age version when you need them rather than having to commit to a tech switch into arbs.
I know it's for balance issues but let's sink in the fact that a guy trowing a jabellin with his arms has more reach than a bowman.
They gonna be BUUUUUSTED, especially in large messy team game fights. x9 the potential damage output for 10 wood, and more tanky. They win vs archer counters, without meatshields. I wonder how many civs wont have any reliable cost effective counter vs massed composites.
I feel like the unit is so strong in a vacuum that it's completely gimping Armenians as a civ.
They'll have some excellent matchups but they'll never be allowed to have BBC or possibly even Siege Engineers which is just a death sentence for an infantry civ.
But they do have strong monks. Just like aztecs who are a Monk-infantry civ
@@johnxina5126 they'll have a good mid game halb+monk timing, on closed maps especially, but I'd be concerned about how they can close out games in late castle onwards.
They might turn out fine in the long run, I'm just not a huge fan of the unit because of how much it limits balance options around the civ and pushes them towards all in Castle Age play.
“It’s (armor piercing) officially in the game now though”
*Sad forgotten Leitis noises*
I miss the historical/realism part of the unit reviews. Honestly, some of the new units the DLCs are adding are baffling.
I cant believe you didnt mention how cool they look.
AAH YES. The power creep. Gotta love those.
If i was to suggest such a unit in a forum, i'd be called dumb.
After first games with Armenians I would a say that Composite Bowman is quite decent unique unit. Combined with some Warriors Priests and other infantry makes a very useable army combination.
pssst... just before any patches will come i will tell some secret....
the composite bowman + mangonel combo is totally broken - bowman will eat any knights and light cav that will try to snipe onager and onager will kill any skirmishers and scorpions which as it turns out are especially effective against bowman.
CUE THE ONTAGE!!
I know it's for gameplay, but in historical terms a composite bow piercing better than an xbow is pretty wild. No bow disregarded armor (even firearms don't *entirely* disregard it), but xbow was the best at defeating it before guns became good enough across the board to replace pretty much everything a single guy can hold in warfare.
One thing that you forgot to mention in the video is that Armenians don't get thumb ring. Generic crossbows/Arbalests with full upgrades actually trade notably better against them than is shown in the video as a result. It also offsets some of the damage difference, as unless the Composite bowmen are dealing ~18% extra damage per hit or more (Granted, micro often results in a slightly lower practical attack rate for crossbows/arbs, but lack of thumb ring is still noteworthy), their DPS is actually lower than for typical crossbow/arb civs.
In the campaign, they are excellent at countering cataphracts when massed. Armenian champions kill everything else.
Paired with the tanky armenian infantry units (champions or warrior priests) as meat shield, that's a very potent combination if the enemy relies on melee units.
Spirit of the Law content hecc YEAH
Composite bows were specially made to be fired while on horseback, it was their sole purpose to be shot at Quick succession while mounting and steering a horse, it is bizarre and very strange looking at a foot Archer using a composite bow.
Meanwhile i remember a time when max armies of Elite Skirms was the perfect snowball in older versions of AoE2
I NEED to have a Teutons + Armenians team now. CAPEY BOIS UNITE
They actually do in the Thoros campaign.
10:41 I get flashbacks of your intro. I even hear it in mine head
I am still confused as to how this unit will fit into the overall Armenian civ design, since this is clearly not meant to be a heavy hitter against archers or gunpowder (which are traditional counters against heavy infantry play); but are actually meant to tackle eagles and cav. But the Armenians already do this pretty well with their own champs and halbs (albeit they have no discount or bonuses other than getting them early). Very curious to see how this civ will be played, and I have a feeling this civ's identity will soon get changed drastically.
I would like for a unique unit to have a dirt cheap gunpowder unit. One that just like the Karambit takes up half a population space and costs about the same. It would have a fairly decent attack of like 12 but an extremely low rate of fire and an accuracy of like 15%. It's dps under testing conditions would be below the arbalest but it's burst damage would be absolutely devastating.
That is actually how hand cannons were used historically. They were inferior to archers in pretty much every way except that archery took a lot of training and so hand cannons could be fielded in much larger numbers.
3:18 the composite bowman shot seems to pierce through shrimvasha rider. Does it mean one single shot could trigger the dodge mechanic in against a group of shrimvasha rider due to it's straight shot mechanic? This is in contrast to literally every other unit where the shot just stops/or disappear after hitting.
You should also compare them to Hand Canoneer, Janjisary, and meele ranged units (TX, Gbeto, Chakram and Mameluke) as looks loke CompBow will have simmilar role - killing meele infantry counters. Also, high damagemof gunpowder and meele damage of others are basicly the same as pierce armor ignoring mechanic.
I stopped playing AOE2 like 2 decades ago but I always maintain my curiosity for the game. Can't explain why.
If you garison the bowman in a tower, does it shoot additional arrows? And if so, do those arrows have the armor piercing effect?
Ys and no, unit abilities never transfer to building attacks.
Have to say, it's very silly that composite bowmen ignore armour and longbows don't. Composite bows historically let a bow have an *effectively* lighter draw weight for throw power. It isn't like modern composite bows where it makes them have a massively higher punch. Mongol horse bows were recurve and composite. But they didn't have more punch than a Longbow.
Plus ofc a large part of armour penetration irl for bows is the type of head being fired.
Giving an armor ignoring Archer unique unit to a non-archer specialised civ was a really smart moves by the devs, I feel like. It helps balance an otherwise pretty overpowered ability that would quickly be broken if, say, Ethiopians with full archer techs plus their civ bonus of faster attack speed had them, for example.
a civ bonus would not affect a unique unit. the unit's base values would be lowered in a way that the result is the value it was designed to have. civ bonuses only change generic units.
that said armenians have full upgrades.
@@BayWa4eva Both your statements are wrong. To make it short here are examples for both: Longbowmen from Britons get bonus range from their civ bonus and Armenians don't get Thumb Ring.
@@JJBeauregard1 the elite longbowman is designed to have more range than arbs and generic castles, but it simply grows with the arbs. that is meant to make it not op straight out of the castle. without yeomen and the briton bonus range, base longbowman would probably have 7 range and elite 9 to make up for it. that is a big buff however.
same for composite bowmen: yes armenians lack thumb ring, but as you may have noticed, the bowmen have 100% accuracy anyways, so thumb ring is already baked into the unit.
technically unique units are affected by civilization bonuses. practically they aren't. they would get the same numbers without civ bonus.
@@BayWa4eva I get your logic but I still think it's a weird way to look at it.
For example you're saying Composite Bowman would have an even slower rate of fire of the general base 2.0 for most archer units if they had access to Thumb Ring or that Elite-Longbowmen would have a base range of 8 if their civ bonus wouldn't apply (or 9 if you count the tech as well) to still get to the final 12 range.
I think it's a flawed way to look at it because you're still ultimately saying that certain units aren't affected by certain bonuses when they are.
@@JJBeauregard1 what happens internally only matters in very specific scenarios (for example a mod that multiplies bonuses). it doesn't matter for balancing which you meant. actually a unique unit gets better the less updates it has because it is faster and cheaper to max out and the final result is the same. that is especially visible for gunpowder UUs.
I don't know how I feel about the Composite Bowman. The Huskarl is the perfect Goth unit since they're an infantry civ, infantry naturally loses to archers, but the Huskarl is an infantry that beats archers. For Armenians, an infantry civ, they're also going to struggle against archers, except they were given a unit that's better against cavalry and other infantry than archers. Numerically, Comp Bows are fantastic, ignoring armor is huge, but what kind of role is it really filling in for the civ..?
Exactly, what Goths are supposed to do vs them.
2 min fresh upload let’s go
Stupid Theory: the Armenians were meant to be a cavalry civ at some point. This would tie more closely into their history and explain why their unique unit is strongest against heavy cavalry, something the Halberdier already deals with fairly well.
6 base attack is a bit overkill on a unit that ignores pierce armor. This means they'll do 10 damage guaranteed per shot with all archer blacksmith upgrades + chemistry, and so that's 100 damage per shot if you mass 10 of them. In fact, all it would take to kill a Paladin with Bloodlines is 2 shots from 9 massed Compies. I honestly think that's broken if you pair their damage output with how quickly they're made. I honestly think their base pierce in Castle Age should be lowered to 3, and have the Elite have 4 base pierce. This way you'd have to invest into them to steamroll units with pierce armor.
Xbow without smith upgrades vs Elite Skirm: 1 damage.
Xbow with Fletching + Bodkin vs Elite Skirm: 3 damage
Compie without smith upgrades vs Elite Skirm: 6 damage.
Compie with Fletching + Bodkin vs Elite Skirm: 8 damage.
Nerfed Compie without smith upgrades vs Elite Skirm: 3 damage.
Nerfed Compie with Fletching + Bodkin vs Elite Skirm: 5 damage.
This way by the time you get all the upgrades, the Elite Compies would be doing 8 damage per shot. By lowering their base attack to 3 in castle, and making their elite variant have 4, there is more value in investing into smith upgrades for them, and also their elite upgrade. Also; I just think doing 6 ~ 8 damage to an Elite Skirm is stupid via an archer in Castle Age.
So much potential for a LotR campaign
Elven archers or Ithilian rangers
"That is no orc horn".
Also warrior monk is the best friar tuck for sure 🎯
I just wonder that how can then now goths do some thing vs Armenians or composite bowmen coz they are left with no counter units ranged units
Composite bowman is such a badass unit with the 100% accuracy without thumb ring, true skill there
poor Composite Bowman, shooting at the same Legionaire from the Iron Age to the Imperial Age :D
The Composite Bowmans' one melee armor in castle age allows it to survive a mangonel shot head on.
Now we can use this new unit in the scenario editor instead of longbowmen to represent the rangers of Ithilien
Uhm so do they ignore pierce armor on the onagers? It felt like they weren't hitting very hard. I think they're probably better against cav archers without micro too in imp. Usually thumb ring (accuracy and fire rate) and parthian tactics (+2 pierce armor) makes cav archers a soft counter to regular archers if there's no meat shields in front. I don't think you get the elite upgrade till you're pop capped.
I think Composite is much more of a Imperial Age unit. During Castle Age the 10 extra wood compared to Crossbowmen is much more important as than in Imperial Age ; you're likely unable to have many castles to build them fast if needed ; and Crossbows do sort of fine vs Knights but Arbalesters do much worse vs Paladins
After some games i feel they are kinda niche as you say i often go for their inf instead . Tho its nice to have a good knight counter.
The fact that skirmishers, chucking a massive javelin, outrange composite bowmen is some crazy AoE logic. Those skirms must be on steroids.
I just stomped a nomad game with them, they shred cav almost like Genoese. They get destroyed by any other archer or skirm though.
You aren't going to do much eco damage these things, but they're 100% in Armenian's best comp.
This is pretty much a paladin vs leitis situation all over again. Wich on one to pick and when, the generic unit or the armor ignoring unique ? I can see low pierce armor factions making the composite bowmen not worth the hassle, but then what would be their answer to good ol' regular crossbows ( espescially if they have mediocre siege) ?
They tried to rein in its wildly expanding strength in Imp by making the Elite upgrade hot garbage, but there is a secret upside to that. In a fast imp situation you only need bracer and chemistry and you have an almost unstoppable unit. Forgo the elite upgrade for 10 or 15 more mass and you will see how truly OP this unit is. Once again the devs don't know what they are doing.
Similar in use to genoese xbow i think.
Early on xbow are just all around better because easier to make and better to micro. Genoese or composite get much better though against cavalry with armor upgrades. In both cases the elite upgrade is trash and not worth it but the castle age unit is much better than even arbalests against cavalry.
Difference is that genoese are better vs cavalry (9 net dmg vs cav typically vs composite 6-8) and low armour targets/siege whereas composite are better elsewhere.
On the whole composite seems a bit better than genoese and a solid unit to transition into especially as from skirmishers.
So in theory, we're only making these things against heavy cavalry, or high pierce armor infantry like the huskarl, and should otherwise focus on infantry, monks, and siege?
That's a very expensive Elite upgrade, considering it's only a +5 HP and +1 Melee armour improvement.
And -2 sec creation time, I suppose. But still...
Melee armour for archers generally is much less useful than pierce armour.
They still feel a bit too powerful, IMO. Maybe they should have a limit in how much armor they can ignore...
Get countered
they should lose another 1 range to balance their outrageous OP damage.
I wonder how the Byzantine v. Armenians matchup would play out, you have halbs and champs earlier than any other civ against the hardest infantry counter around.
What about against chembows with hussite wagons in between?
The fact that he has a cool cape alone is already enough reason to make them instead of regular ass crossbows.
In terms of the rule of cool, the composite bowmen are unstoppable. Their design is so nice.
They look great too, one of the best looking unique units in the game I would say.
So if the Rattan Archer is the Anti Archer Archer, the Composite Bowman is the Anti Anti Archer Archer
A cool idea but I really don't think we need a other infantry counter, even after the buff