Refill Your Fuel Canisters!? FlipFuel Review
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- If you use canister stoves and have found yourself with collection of half-full fuel canisters at home, the FlipFuel might be worth a closer look. In today's video, Neil talks through canister fuels, what's in them, the different sizes, and how the FlipFuel can play a key role in saving money and space by transferring fuel from one canister to the next.
This video was supported by Teravail Tires, learn more about Teravail and their tire lineup here: www.teravail.com/?...
Outline:
Intro: 0:00
Understanding Fuel Canisters: 0:28
Ways to Use Canisters
Small Canister to Small Canister: 3:39
Small Canister to Large Canister: 5:40
Large Canister to Small Canister: 6:19
Final Thoughts: 7:21
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#bikepacking #pedalfurther #flipfuel
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::About The Host::
Neil Beltchenko ( / neil_beltchenko )
Geometry: 150lbs, 5'9.5", 32" inseam
Wearing: Signature Fit Icon - Small - www.kitsbow.com/collections/t... - Спорт
By far, the easiest way I've found to create the pressure gradient is to pour hot water into the concave bottom of the top canister. Then the temp difference is significant and you don't have to deal with cooling the receiving/bottom canister. I've had no problem draining the top canister completely. If you overfill the receiving canister, you can easily flip the system over and drain a bit back, or just hook up your stove and burn off a bit. Overfilled canisters, without a bit of space for liquid expansion, run the risk of deforming or maybe bursting if heated, but are not particularly dangerous unless heated significantly above their filling temp.
Thank you for sharing this!
Another good thing to use halfies for is your local coffee outside! And if you don’t have one, start one! It’s a blast!
Coffee outside you say...
@@phils951 hey! It’s my coffee outside buddy!
Definitely one of my favorite new products of 2022. Useful and with a clear purpose to save fuel and money. Very nice. I use an alcohol stove myself as it doesn’t require so many wasted metal canisters. That said, it’d be great to see a follow-up video on canister recycling procedures as I’ve never heard of them being reused / refilled / recycled properly.
After making sure the canister is empty and then poking a hole in it with a can opener, I've put them in the metal recycling, as they are made of just metal with a bit of plastic on the valve.
Yes!! What a great product. Thanks for bringing this to the channel
This was a great tutorial. Thanks for explaining so thoroughly
I've been doing this for over 7 years now with something that looks exactly the same but raw aluminium (Gas Saver from G-works). Every time I top up a little canister from a large one I mark it with a sharpie that way I can keep track of the number of times I've filled it - when it gets to 12 times I throw it out (no specific reason for 12 but seems about right) - I figure the canisters are designed to be disposable and perhaps threads will wear, seals will fail or the inside of canister may eventually corrode? Just erring on the side of caution.
Good idea.
Yeah, after a few refills they are not 100% hermetic, but I weigh them and they don't even lose a gram of gas, so the only issue is the smell, which I solve by keeping them in ziplock bags.
Interesting video. I worked in oil refineries for 15 years as a pipefitter. The pressure will equalize and that is why there's always a little left. One of the things that they insisted on in refineries is to minimize risk. There's always risk. Especially with pressurized containers. I ask myself what is the cost/risk benefit?
You mentioned a relief on the device. Is it enough to keep you safe from blowing up the can? If you did blow up the can and got injured. Would it be worth saving a few dollars?
A little fear can be a good thing. It can keep you from getting hurt. At least ask a few questions.
Thanks for the video. I never saw this device before.
Fluids that are stored in a temperature-pressure equilibrium need a vapor space to prevent the container from becoming a bomb. In case it's not obvious, if you overfill the container, there's no vapor space to allow for even minor temperature changes. He should have explicitly pointed out the hazard, preferably at the very beginning of the video. He danced around it but I think it should be the first thing he talked about.
It's not like you a pumping gas from a compressor. The pressure in the donor can is about the same as in the receptacle can. I can't see this as a huge issue. I just got one, so if you don't from me in 24 hours.... ;)
@@gary7vn Just checking in. It's been 72 hours or so. Are you still, okay, Gary?? 🙂
I've tried a similar process w/ propane tanks to camper bottles, & you're correct it's not for the 'faint of heart' or the easily frustrated, but it can save a buttload of $$$
I picked up a 5lbs propane tank rather than mucking around trying to refill those green bottles. Perfect for camping/tailgates and more versatile because it has a full size valve, so in an 'emergency' you can hook it up to your full size grill.
Great idea!
FYI, you shouldn't have a problem with over-filling/exploding canisters if you let out the excess before the can warms up. An explosion would be caused by excess pressure (not fuel). The pressure in the recipient canister can never exceed that of the donor canister while they are connected. If you over-fill the recipient canister, pressure will build proportional to the increase in temperature, but as long as you let the excess fuel out first, you'll be fine.
Thank for this.
I have a bobcat kovea cook system that I take with me camping. It all stores nicely in the titanium cookpot. But the brilliance of the system is the kovea spider, which at freezing temperatures can vaporize the remaining fuel by turning the fuel canister upside down. It was worth every penny, I do regret not getting the baking part of the system. So yeah I cheaped out after spending over $100 on the system only not to buy the $12 baking plate lol. With that said I need the flipfuel because I have three half full canisters.
I'm a scuba diver and did lots of tech diving. So I'm quite versatile when it comes to gas and pressure. The basic here is not only the capacity but also the pressure. First, this is not recommended to refill those small canisters, and even less since this way requires you to play with temperatures. Make a mistake and this may explode in your face. Using a larger canister to refill a smaller one is safer, but avoid this with two same-size canisters since you need to freeze one and get the other one a lot.
Also be aware that if any accident, your insurance will NOT cover you. You may even be sued because of that.
Besides that, just so you know, only trained personnel with certification are allowed to fill tanks in the scuba world and there's a good reason for that. Too many accidents in the past...
In my humble opinion, filling a small PROPANE tank from a larger one is OK. But don't play with those small isobutane/propane canisters. Another reason besides safety is the cost. Medium canisters costs, on average, half the price of the bigger one, and so on. So no saving there. And if you have some canisters with low fuel left, keep them for use at home or on small trips. Besides that, you're bikepacking, right? So the weight of the canister is minimal...
Sure you need certification to fill a scuba tank but tanks can be over 3500psi and quite literally life or death if you haven't filled it correctly (although incorrectly filled tanks should be spotted during pre dive checks) and the certification is just a couple of hours being taught how to do it, there's nothing complex.
Isobutane canisters are only 'pressurised' due to the vapour pressure probably less than 50psi.
I'm not saying there's no danger but it's pretty chalk and cheese vs a scuba tank.
@@chazphot Totally irrelevant and uneducated comment... so let me educate you... Regulations say that no scuba tank can be filled above 3500psi, so you're wrong right from the start. Second, there are different types of scuba tanks. Most commonly aluminum and steel. There's no way you should fill an aluminum tank at 3500psi and even less above than that. FYI, there is what we call a "safety pressure release system" on each tank. the disk will burst if the pressure is too high. However, the tank may explode if the pressure is too sudden. As for the isobutane canister, you're talking about 50psi. That's not the topic here. It'll explode if the pressure goes above that. A scuba tank is much more resistant than an isobutane so comparing the 3500psi (again, you're wrong on that) with an isobutane is flawed.
Last, there were many accidents with people trying to refill their isobutane the WRONG way. And, as said, if you have an accident, the insurance will NOT pay a dime whatever a fire, household damage, medical injury, etc..
Bottom line, do it the right way or don't.
I am using something similar from China called Camping Moon. Works the same and I have been using Butane refills for my stove canisters. I live in South East Asia so I don't have cold or high altitude problems where I bikepack.
I do the same type of thing with one pound propane tanks. The waste and expense was too much for me to accept and we use the one pound tanks a lot for our vehicle type of camping. Naturally the weight was not too much of an issue but the bulk of a 20 pound tank was. I bought a "transfer valve" and now before a camping trip I refill my one pound propane canisters from my 20 pound tank.
I use the chill method for my empty tank and use the propane tank at normal temperature. Unlike the isobutane tanks the propane simply stops transferring on it's own. I weigh each of them after filling just to ensure I don't overfill them as they are under a lot of pressure once full.
There are refillable 1 pound prolane tanks. The weight slightly more and cost 20-30 $, but you get a bottle that can withstand the preassure cycles of refilling. The one time use will survive some time, but will fail eventually and since you're having a car for transport, it's not worth the risk. The small cannisters don't have refillable versions and weight matters more in a backpack, so there is an argument for refilling, but the 1 pound propane ones aren't worth it.
I do hope you get to review the Allied BC40. It’s dreamy!
Fluids that are stored in a temperature-pressure equilibrium need a vapor space to prevent the container from becoming a bomb. In case it's not obvious, if you overfill the container, there's no vapor space to allow for even minor temperature changes. He should have explicitly pointed out the hazard, preferably at the very beginning of the video. He danced around it but I think it should be the first thing he talked about.
California legislators have been trying to introduce a bill to eventually ban one time use propane and fuel canisters. Their State Parks lose money on disposing these tanks because most recycling plants refuse to process them because they are rarely disposed of correctly.
I’ve been trying to buy the flame king set for propane but it’s constantly sold out. I do hope that manufacturers get ahead of the legislation and provide a refillable option. I don’t mind paying more for a design that is built to handle this.
For my grill at home, I like using services like Blue Rhino where when my tank is empty, I just bring it back to the gas station and swap out a tank. Previously I owned the tank and would only get about a year out of it before it developed rust and the local hardware store refused to refill it. I was then stuck with a rusty tank with a little bit of propane in it. If someone offered a service similar to that for these types of canisters, that would take all the guesswork out of this stuff. That company can re-claim as much of the leftover gas out of the tanks, recycle the tanks to make new tanks, and provide us with new full tanks.
Are they going to ban canned food an beverages as well?
I recommend also getting a Snowpeak Mini-Flame lantern. They produce a small candle-like flame and are designed to burn off that last little bit of fuel left in your cartridge. My experience has been when the lantern stops burning the cartridge is truly empty.
Ahh, interesting. Good stuff, thanks for sharing.
Good idea. I happen to have one of those laying around.
Using a stove with a pressure regulator, will also really drain the tank.
Pretty useful looking gadget. I think I just might have to pick one of those up so I can get rid of a couple old rusty half full canisters.
So in my area I can get the 110g container for $5.95 (MSR) at REI.
I can get the 450 g container for 10.95.
That's an equivalent cost of 2.68 for the small container assuming you can transfer it all, which you can't.
Then you have the $35 cost of the device.
You could buy a good deal of new 110 g containers before you break even with refilling them.
And eventually the containers will wear out so maybe every 10 refills you will have to discard it anyways.
You'd have to use a lot of this fuel to make it worthwhile, what's for some people it would be.
Unless you look at it from a waste perspective and wasting all that metal, but then you're also going to waste fuel.
Real good when a hiker is home. Has all the tools. No one has really shown how to use this on the trail by thru hikers to whom this would be very valuable. I suppose the only way would since no thru hiker carries scales, would be to use the water method. Thanks.
A good preventive idea is to wear safety glasses when doing this, just in case. Thx for the vid. Brent
I prefer use the kit for big bottles (10\25 kg etc ) for charge little bottle 100-230g , is very ceap and in travell is possible recharge in "street" . in aliexpress have kit for this system.
This is why I'm trying out alcohol fuel stoves (Trangia). We'll see how the performance compares, but I have a problem with the waste that those canisters create.
I know they have a cult following, but I quickly soured on the Trangia. At first the flame is low, precisely when you usually want full flame. As it heats up and gets low on fuel it can take off and turn into a bit of a fireball (especially when very close to empty), and the simmer ring seems to be ineffectual or the fireball too big to safely get close enough to put on the fire ring. For short trips I have become a big fan for Esbit tabs. They stink a bit, but for a fewboils nothing else matches their weight and simplicity. For longer trips the weight savings evens out and getting restocked on the trail is pretty much out of the question.
@@123moof What kind of fuel did you use in the Trangia?
@@larry4674 just the denatured stove fuel, Klean-Strip brand.
i use the alcohol sistem, it is fast system but you have need experience for use, most important is diameter of stoves, and distance stoves to pot. Much is diameter of stoves much is power , much is distance stoves to pot much is power flame.
Alcohol stoves are not legal in most of the West Coast states (wildfire prevention reasons) so, if you are doing any trips on the West Coast, use what's legally allowed.
The button on the front allows to purge a little fuel out so you don't overfill the canister.
I take this a step further and refill the single use canisters from the large(1,3 and 5kg) reusable ones. This is specifically prohibited by the manufacturer, but I cannot bring myself to throw away a whole cannister after one use, I really hate disposable things. It requires an adapter similar to this, but with a different thread size on one end.
I own 3 disposable cannisters: 100, 240 and 450 grams and use them depending on my trip's length, then refill them afterwards. When I bought them I wrote down the gross weight and just refill to around the same using kitchen scales.
Its not in the moment of filling it would pop. Its when it gets warm/hot…lets say in your pack in the trunk of your car. Back in the day I filled my own CO2 tanks for paintball. Ask me how I know 😂. Getting hot = expansion. Monitor your weights leave some room and you should be good to go. But if it pops in your car you have been warned😊
this was after using the flip fuel and it was full I assume?
No. Giant CO2 tank to small tank for paint ball. But the physic’s are the same
The fuel mixture that remains in a canister is PROFOUNDLY influenced by the ambient temperatures that the original fill(s) was consumed. Read the previous sentence again... I previously submitted a "minority report" on this topic. If you are considering this approach, take a very close look at the questions posed.
I grease the threads of the canisters to prevent the rust ,because I realised some rust around the can ; did this process a few times to , and works perfect( got the cheap version from amazon I guess I payed 10bucks ) , well of course it can be a bit risky , but if you weight the cans little by little I wouldn't say its so dangerous... , in my case I got this flip fuel because I couldn't find or get this 100G canisters no where they where all sold out .. well riding a loaded bike on some trails that can be very dangerous and most of us do it ;P ... and who doesn't like to enjoy a beautiful meal or cup of coffee, tea on a remote place... ?!??
I would say its also a way to recycle the canisters and not just to use them one time in other words its an environment friendly gadget ;).
WD40 works too. Or even a bit of cooking oil.
What's the purpose in having different temperatures for the canisters? can i do it at room temperature for both?
The different temperatures creates a pressure differential to move the fuel between the two canisters.
How does over filling occur? I would assume both large and small canisters are filled to the same pressure (same construction so thus hold the same pressure) and thus the volume of the tanks is irrelevant. Gas will transfer until the pressure in both tanks is equal. Or are these tanks filled to different pressures?
You weigh the canister to find out how full it is. You need space for the fuel to expand if they are exposed to sunlight or a hot vehicle.
Is there an adapter from a collet gas cartridge to a threaded one?
They are. But make sure you use exact gas mixture (as collet might be filled with butane or other options).
Yo! That was Jesse Ramsey right?
It will be nice if someone were doing an overfill test on video to see what's happen, respecting of course some safety mesure.
I imagine the curved bottom of cannisters will pop out and get unsealed.
Am I thinking about this wrong?
I don't understand why it's worrisome to overfill a canister?
When you have a liquid and gas inside the canister changing the volume should not increase or decrease the pressure. Heating it up will increase the rate of evaporation inside the canister and increase the pressure, and cooling will have the reverse effect.
So if you take extra fuel from a warm canister and transfer it into a cool one... Even if there is "Extra" fuel... Once the canister is at normal temp the pressure shouldn't be any greater than if it were less full.
This does assume there is some space in the canister for vapor to exist... So I can imagine filling a canister to the tippy top isn't a good idea, but for reasons other than it might blow up due to high pressure.
That seems accurate, at least in my testing. The amount of transfer is very little after about 20 seconds or so, about when the temperature inside the intake is the same as the outtake, maybe that’s why I couldn’t extract all of the fuel from the outtake canisters.
@@BIKEPACKINGcom You shouldn't ever be able to transfer all of the fuel. That would require zero or negative pressure in the In-tank, and positive pressure in the out-tank.
Since you will never have zero pressure in the in-tank... just reduced pressure due to cooling... Once the pressure in the out-tank matches the in-tank flow will stop.
I'd be curious to see what would happen with two canisters at the same temp..? In this situation the pressure should be the same, but you'd have liquid fuel on the top side of the valve and gas on the bottom side
I would think there should still be some flow from top to bottom as gravity pulled the liquid down.
Again.. someone smarter than I should weigh in as I could have this all wrong. It's been a long time since vapor pressure is something I had to know about.
You need to take into account the volumetric expansion of the liquid as well, which is not insignificant if you are cooling the canister you are transferring to.
It's not like the fuel is being PUMPED in by some compressor. It's in can that by definition is at a safe pressure.
@@gregmaino178 I 100% agree. The only thing that would end up in over pressure would be if different sized tanks are designed to hold different pressures. I highly doubt that as they are the same construction.
$35 is quite a bit of fuel! Is the off-set worth it?
I have just bought one and probably will not recoup the cost to me in fuel, but am lending it to friends to get the most use out of the device
It's not just about $. It's about maximizing efficiency and to some degree reducing waste.
@@mlangley7019 surely it’s more ‘efficient’ to spend that cash on fuel and not an extra gizmo?
@@mlangley7019 with regards to reducing waste, good point. I work in a public recycling centre and the amount of partially filled canisters that get thrown out is unnerving.
It's not just that, it's being forced to go camping with three cans that could all fit in one. That happens all the time, I go on a trip and I have a small amount of fuel left over so wind up taking two or even three canisters, and then you have to deal with the empties!
Wonder what other kinds of grams that scale has seen...
Lots of bike parts.
Never ever fill these canisters with pure propane. Only use butane or butane/isobutane/propane mixtures.
The reason why this works best with 1/2 empty canisters is because these still contain a lot of liquid gas that keeps the canister cool. Just repeat the process and cool the partly filled canister again in the freezer for 10~15 minutes.
Additional tip: always attach or remove the canister from any equipment with the valve pointing up. If you hold the canister upside down when attaching or removing, the little bit of gas that escapes is liquid so that will give you a much higher loss on your gas (don't ask me how I know...)
I would not worry about 'overfilling' the cannisters. you can fill it all the way to the top if you want, it wont make any difference. The reason they do not fill them all the way is for evaporative head space inside the can so its not spewing liquid.
Don’t worry about exploding canisters! I‘ve seen completely burnt down boxes of packs of 12 canisters. They have been in a nearly complete burnt down shop. They looked like nothing had happened. The pressure must have been extreme…
Just put it in hot water. Or you could use a heating pad.
As long as you weigh it you should be good. But this is not a process without risk, I have to say I am not sure I would have published this video.
Well, nobodys perfect..
Neil committed to a video about fuel canisters and his first idea was "100 things to do with those part used canisters", but after 2 visits from the Bomb Squad in as many days he decided this video was a much more responsible option!
Those devices only cost 6 bucks on amazon. Why pay 6 times that amount.
One reason is you are almost certainly gonna want some vocal support after your 2ed failure at the transfer & unless you have Niel's cell phone # the extra $29 is a good investment in your mental health
I can't see a $6 version of this, but there is a $20 version on Amazon which is exactly the same unit just in a grey/silver finish rather than red with the FlipFuel branding.
I think I paid $8 for mine a couple years ago, no issues. I just buy the mega canisters. It does not have a vent (why the hell would you want to vent excess fuel?! DaFuq?). If I overfill I just flip things over and wait a bit and gravity will drain out a little excess.
It is a good idea to Sharpie the full weight on the bottom if it is not printed on the canister, and to keep a set of hash marks for each refill. If you are worried about it, replace after 10 or so refills. If the valve starts leaking on the trail you can always just leave your stove screwed on to it as a temporary fix to get you though.
Or much cheaper off ali express
All my canisters says: DO NOT REFILL!
Because they want to sell you MOAR.
Drink every time Neil says "canister"
How many drinks is that? :)
Where are you buying canisters for $17/$27? Woof thats steep.
You are very right. Not sure why I wrote those down in my notes. Those are inaccurate numbers, at least where I live.
Bad idea ,unless you want to be burned alive
Meh. What a mess. White fuel, forever. As hard as it is to find these days.
I use both kinds. Nothing beats just firing up a good propane/butane stove though. In particular in the AM for my coffee.