The Helwan HA-300; Egypt’s Messerschmitt
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2021
- Famed for his World War Two fighter aircraft, Willy Messerschmitt's last design was a supersonic fighter for the Egyptian Air Force. And it flew!
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The Second prototype is now in The Egyptian AF Museum in Cairo , and the third is exhibited in the Egyptian Aircraft Factory in Helwan south of Cairo
Yet again you have me, a military nerd, saying “ I had no idea...”. Outstanding work, love your channel.
Messerschmitt: Hey, I'm designing successful aircraft again!
German Government: Great, for whom?
Messerschmitt: The enemies of Israel.
Government: *sighs* Willie, we talked about this...
You might want to relearn your history a bit.
I think we are watching the next Mark Felton Productions in the works here. Top notch videos.
Very high praise indeed! I dont pretend to be as professional or as knowledgable as Dr. Felton. But thank you for the compliment!
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters You keep coming up with obscure topics and this channel will blow up big time.
This is true mr Ed Nash. You are swiftly coming closer to dr feltons quality of production. Very original material
For sure, Willy Messerschmidt had a gift for designing airplanes!! It's a good looking plane.
Another gem from your library Ed. Reminds me of the Folland Gnat. Thanks Ed. I wonder how many of those Buchons appeared in the "Battle of Britain" ?
Lol the Bucheons are on the to do list :)
Yeah, a Gnat with a tad less wing area.
@@toomanyuserids helwan had shorter span but larger wing area. had delta wing rather than swept, as helwan was designed to be supersonic, gnat was not.
It reminds me of the Grumman F-11F Tiger.
Reminds me of the Gnat as well, although the Gnat is a lot shorter.
Funny that the HF-24 Marut at 7:38 was designed by another German designer of famous WW2 planes; Kurt Tank.
I believe the Murat had a fuselage that was way too long. The plane could have also used some weight control. Not like Kurt Tank at all...
Not to forget the FMA I.Ae. 33
The Murat would have been a fine aircraft if engines of even just 25% more power could have been obtained, and if Tank had paid attention to the area rule.
@@mikearmstrong8483 , but alas 🙁
@@pushkarajdongre
Alas? He needed 25% more lass? Or are you saying his area rule was to look for a lass in the area?
Have to wonder what would have happened if Spain, Egypt and India had created a consortium to hammer out a common aircraft design with export potential. It worked for Panavia and SEPECAT.
All they had the same problem. They could not make the engine themself.
@@alexlo7708 egypt make already 200 and it was better than f16 but that time egypt army was help Yemen because saudi was attack Yemen and same time england and France and Israel attack egypt its called suez crisis same time half egypt army in Yemen for years and england vs France in suez and Israel go inside sinai that wars make egypt lose the economic egypt coin was strongest pound in the world before that wars because Egyptian white gold cotton that time . And Egypt stop that project and then all German engineering leave egypt and go China and 2 years later China make first missile its exactly same old egypt missile program with German engineering. After ww2 all Hitler engineering go to America Russia France and egypt. And we don't if egypt still have more secrets hide who knows .
Exactly, they didn't had the industrial capacity, at least in these yrs. It was more economical buying from other nations, also if India started to build its aircrafts under licence
The US, French and Soviets were busy keeping the market for themselves. Whoever thinks political considerations to cancel or go ahead with projects are not backed by companies interest keeps living in Neverland. Spain powerbrokers had (and have) no interest on such a project. Regarding industrial capacity Spain has been building aircrafts and Engines, including Jets from the very beginning. Hispano Suiza built versions of all major engines Wright, Griffon, Nenes, is all in Wikipedia.
As Spaniard interested on planes... I know this plane. So I can tell that you forgot the first prototype...no the one build by the Egyptians, the one that was made in wood that flew as a glider in Spain, with several problems on handling (impossible to airborne), to improve the model with the jet engine. I didn't know that the project was killed just when was able to start production.
Hi Ed, great content, really like the background info as well as the subject. If you are looking for the subject of another unusual military aircraft how about the F-105H, (I am assuming it had the H label coz G was the last of the conventional line or it might have been given a new designation). Anyway, the F-105H, with an 8 foot increase in wing span, change to a turbofan motor, terrain following radar, (instead of terrain avoidance radar) and changes to the internal bomb bay, was in competition with the F-111, which it lost for reasons you are probably aware. It would have been available to the USAF for one tenth the cost an F-111. Interesting.
Somewhat ironic that the first prototypes used British engines as that is what Spain did to keep its Messerschmits flying
For a few years after watching "The Battle of Britain (1969)" I had the wrong idea of how World War II He-111 bombers really looked like.
@@AudieHolland It took me awhile to realise them and the Me-109 had their engines the wrong way up.
It already exsist in the Egyptian military museum of air crafts in cairo Egypt. 🤗
Willy Messerschmitt had one hell of a brilliant mind.
Ironic (or maybe not?) That his last name means 'Blade Smith.'
(Alternatively: knife or sword smith / maker)
Ed Nash there is actually a helwan 300 in the new egyption air force museum you can see it there on full show
Next time I'm in Egypt I'll be sure to check it out! :)
The Mirage F1 bears a lot of resemblance to this
There is sadly an abandoned fuselage of the HA 200 at the gate of the aerospace department in Cairo University
Helwan also made a 9mm pistol that was an almost identical copy of a Beretta 1951.. was a great pistol..used to have one.
No.... Helwan was the name given to the pistol but not because it was produced by some manufacturing outfit named 'Helwan'.
@@girthbrooks39 True.. produced by Al Maadi
One of my favorites, a neat, mean little bird 💜.
Fascinating. Lots of 'Battle of Britain ' movie aircraft came from the Spanish airforce.
Fantastic show Ed!!! They just keep getting BETTER! Neat looking plane! You are the best I always look forward to your new offering! Great Job!
Another excellent video. Looking forward to your video on HAL aircraft. Keep up the good work!
I watch interview in RT Arabic with one of Helwan Egyptians engineers, he said after the Aircraft becomes success, the soviet union feared that Aircraft could compete their Mig 21 sales, he said we received direct order from the Soviet union authority to shutdown the factory and convert it to civil factory _making kitchen tools_ , that was the major reason why the Aircraft project were fail, I think that aircraft could out perform it rivals of it era.
Egypt have more army factors we already make tanks and some American tanks with American teach and French teach and German teach . And I told you egypt already have nuclear power since 80s egypt start nuclear and missile and helwan 300 project in same time but we stop helwan 300 project because egypt lose the economic because lots wars same time. Egypt army was help Yemen for years because Saudi Arabia was attack Yemen and same time england and France and Israel together england vs France go to attack suez canal and Israel go inside sinai desert and Egypt kick england and France and after 6 years egypt kick Israel from sinai and now all world travel in beautiful sinai beaches in sharm el sheikh and taba ...
I don’t think that’s remotely likely to be true. The Soviets did not own or even indirectly control the Egyptian factories. More realistically, the Engineer was “bigging-up” his achievements years later with few of the original “players” still alive to undermine his story. It was logical to end the project once MiG21s became available at the highly-subsidised prices the Soviets exported them at.
A very good channel extremely well presented. The Mark Felton comparisons are extremely valid.
I hadn't heard of this before now! Great video (as usual!)
Very good video!!!
There is an HA 300 in the Egyptian Air Force museum in Cairo. It doesn't seem to be a mock up... Could it be the Helwann aircraft???
Entirely possible!
I could only find the location of 2, but there were 7 made and none crashed, so there's no incentive to build a model of one, right?
The first HA-300 prototype has been on display in the Deutsches Museum Flugwerft Schleissheim at Oberschleißheim near Munich since 1997. It was bought by Daimler-Benz Aerospace AG (DASA) and restored at Manching by MBB over a five and a half year period.
One HA-300 is displayed by the Messerschmitt Stiftung in Manching.
I found this.... _"The Ha-300 V.2 and V.3 are still in Cairo."_ So the 2nd & 3rd planes built are both in Cairo apparently.
@@Matt_from_Florida they are indeed, I'm an aerospace engineering student and I have seen one while on training.
Made me sad that Egypt couldn't mass produce this beautiful fighter.
Looks like a Gnat and a MiG-21 got busy. Sharp looking little jet...and clearly old Willi had a thing for spindly outward-canted main gear...😁
Bravo! The King of the What Ifs strikes again. Aside from possible 'terminal conditions', the pilot in me wishes the plane could have enjoyed better success.
Man its a amazing Channel its my exit from stress
Thank you Ed! A lovely little plane I had no idea existed.
I do admire your work, Mr. Nash. I realy do. The pieces of information, and, especially, the angle of view. Your book is incredibly good. I absolutely recommend it to those who are interested in what wass going on a very short time ago in the Middle East. Thank you so much!
Many thanks!
Another jewel, Mr. Ed.
He is like Mark felton, but for planes.
Another amazing video
and congrats on 20,000 subs
Thanks man
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Make that 20,001.
This is a fantastic display of historical schooling and I can't thank you enough Sir. 🇬🇧📚🙏
Great video mate! 👍
Can you do about HF Marut?
Reminded me that when I was working for EEV around 1982, a pile of junk on a sales rep's desk turned out to be Russian magnetrons and various radar parts. Egypt were trying to buy spares from us for their Russian radars. I was told that they looked like copies of some of our older models, but the company didn't want to make them. So the Egyptians would have to buy new stuff instead.
As someone already said, once again you made my day! *\0/*
Interesting subject matter, an aircraft I had never heard of. Also, better ending, less abrupt.
This is brilliant
I know the Egyptian handgun called a "Helwan", and now the fighter plane. ....You've got to figure, that with a massive industrial project, both military and civilian, all centered on one general location....that there has to be about a dozen different Egyptian mechanical products that are known as "The Helwan".
So the 1967 bond movies were "the yoohoo"
Helwan is a large industrial city with a lot factories, so whenever they made something they went: "let's just call it after our city"
Outstanding work!!!!!! Your knowledge is to be arcane
Hispano Aviación HA-300.
Also HA-500 Alancrán for attack and close air support is a kind of predecesor of the later A-10.
Nice plane, mini mirage/Alpha jet, interesting video.
Looks like the product of a late night, back of the hangar rendezvous between a Mirage IIIC and a MiG-21 F-13.
Looks like the love child of a match between folland gnat and fairly delta…..and the Hal 24 likewise a love child of hawker hunter and fairly delta.
I remember reading that the major reason was that it was actually cheaper to buy MiGs than to locally produce Helwans
I am Egyptian , Actually there's one in Egyptian airforce museum
ME-262 was not the first jet fighter. It was the first to enter mass production. The HE-280 flew 7 months before the 262.
I’m not sure who or whom you believe you’re correcting? Ed doesn’t say the Me262 was the first jet fighter. Listen again at 00:25
Great stuff
Has anyone noticed the stark similarity between HA-300 and later MiG-21 configuration? Delta wing, vertical stabilizer with weights on the ends, etc.
Actually... look at the Mirage F1, the french literally copied the HA 300.
@@user-hq6vc2cv5g It isn't that Simple. F1's fuselage And vertical stabiliser Are Mirage III,but the wing Is more like Northrop F-5 Tiger II. Its position Is like HA-300, but it isn't a delta.
Probably inspired by it,but still not similar enough to be a copy.
@@marekstanek112 Just give it a closer look, it's the same design but bigger; also both are delta wing (the back end of the wing is or closer to a 90 degree at the contact point with the main frame), yet with a tail group which is exceptionally rare and special with delta wing designs (compare them with mirage 3, mirage 5, mirage 2000, mirage 4000, dassualt Rafale and even the euro fighter 2000 typhoon; they are all delta wing but none of them have the tail group, why would france make all those planes with the same tail less group except the Mirage F1!?).
A sort of mini mirage, delta dart concept.
Looks sleek but no doubt would have been weighed down with tanks and ordinance in service.
Very interesting! Cheers!
Interesting story, didnt know it...it looks like a mix between an f11f tiger and a mirage 2000....
Pic has the Helwan flying over the step pyramid of Zoser at Saqqara. Not important to the video, but the algorithm might want to know.
Djoser pronounced 'Zoser'
@@bernie2108 Zoser is an alternate spelling and is what my art history professor used 30-something years ago, so it’s good enough.
That design would have been ideal for most of the NATO light interceptor projects of the 1960-70s and if it had been built by any major nation it probably would have been a massive commercial sucsess. It compares very favourably with the F5 (a cotemporary design) being faster, having almost double the range, having over double the thrust-weight ratio even with the weaker engine having a vastly superior climb rate and a 3000m higher service ceiling whilst also maintaining a lower wing loading. Which along with the crazy thrust to weight levels indicate potentially a very good level of manoeuvrability whilst having a similar weapons loading. While we will never know what kind of Avionics suite or its upgrade capability. It would have had in every conceivable not just beat the F5, it humiliates it and I'm saying this as someone who really likes the F-5
Unfortunately, Lockheed's bribery made sure Europe was focused at the time on the F-104.
Beautiful jet, very futurist looking
Thank you
Looks a lot like a Folland Gnat.
A Gnat & a Mirage had a kid.
Thank you for the metric!
Tactical comment to help you grow. Good content and love your voice;)
;) thanks
and Helwan produced some Bücker 181 Trainers for the EAF
Underneath this video , is your video about Mirage vs. sukhoi.. and i cant help to notice the amount of similarities between the mirage and helwan, even some of the smaller details can be seen in the same place as is the cockpit.
An interesting alternative history version of this aircraft would be a German WWII version that was powered by two BMW -003 engines of 4000 lb thrust each
Did some of the Messerschmitt engineers go on to Dassault after the HA-300? I'm getting proto Mirage and Etendard vibes from the Helwan. Or is it just convergent design evolution?
Probably convergent design evolution...
Tremendous story.
Thank you.
So - Willy Messerschmidt designed a tiny airframe for a fighter plane...the HA-300.
And...in the mid-1930's...he designed a tiny airframe for a fighter plane...the Bf 109.
Hmmm.
Peace.
His philosophy was to build the smallest fightet around the largest engines he can get.
Looks like a set of MiG-21 wings and tail on a Folland Gnat fuselage. Thank you for posting.
The Folland Gnat was even shorter than the HA300 - less than 30'.
Great video, slight sound issue
the Helwan HA-300 is a sexy aircraft design
My first thought was, a tailed delta version of the Folland Gnat.
It looks a bit like the Hawker Siddely Gnat, but that near-taildragger gear configuration could have come back to haunt them in a heavy landing.
*Folland Gnat
I sphinx the Helwan was wan hell of a plane.
Makes me think of the Avro Arrow, but more of this aircraft survive.
Looks a little bit like the Folland Gnat which the Red Arrows display team used before the BAe Hawk and I believe was also used by the Indian air force for advanced training and light attack.
I was just playing as the United Arab Republic in Millenium Dawn making my own domestic Jet. This is so uncanny...
Keep an eye on your Germans
Video game?
Be careful. I hear it might be a 'terminal' occupation!
Messerschmidt went to Egypt, Kurt Tank to India,
Dewoitine to Argentina,
Max Holste (designer of the Broussard) to Brazil (founding of Embraer)
Any other examples of great aerospace engineers moving abroad to support indegeneous programs?
Absolutely fascinating and great to see the historical and political context. Top notch and literate commentary. Can I humbly suggest a better and closer microphone? Nit-picking I know, because it's a great video.
Yes, I'm having problems with recording equipment. Plus once it uploads to youtube, they seem to do their own tweaks that aggravate it.
I'll continue fiddling with it, see if I can get it better.
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Fwiw, blackpenredpen has a popular math channel with very good audio using a Purple Panda lavolier microphone into an iPhone. He clips it to a plush Pokie Ball and uses it handheld. Check any of his recent videos if interested, mentioning it because it's very inexpensive.
It looks like someone has shrunk a Mirage 3 in the wash
Good job
Any sensible comparison with the Grumman F11 Tiger and the Folland Gnat apart from the general shape?
Kapil Bhargava was the test pilot for both, the Helwan and the Indian HF-24 Marut.
I've NEVER heard of this plane.
I heard about the one Kurt Tank designed for the Peron government of Argentina in the 1950s.
Pretty much the same thing happened; changing politics, program got killed.
They built four of his jets.
I’m a Egyptian myself was wondering where did you get all these details? cause we are not known for keeping archives 😅
Also, about the guns: was it supposed to have the british aden, or the french defa cannons?
And the engine for the third prototype is impressive. 10,000+ lbf thrust in afterburner, compared to f-5's two j85s putting out just 10,000 lbf, also in afteburner, combined.
According to both Hispano Aviación and Messerschmitt's documents, HA-300 only carry "2 'Sidewinder' rockets" and optional "700kg(1540lb.) External armament", including all its Orpheus 12SR , Orpheus 703 and E300 engine variants. There's no 30mm cannons option from these archives. I wonder in which source did Ed find its 30mm cannon armament.
Thank you 🙏 AGAIN for pulling another aircraft that I have absolutely no knowledge of 👏👏👏....🤔 How does it compare to the Holland Gnat ??
I think very similar, though the HA 300 would have had much better performance, if it had got into service.
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters thank you 🙏 AGAIN
There's something about this plane that puts me in mind of the Folland Gnat.
This and the F-11 Tiger.
Though the HA-300 has delta wings like the MiG-21, which makes for a very different look from above/below.
Me too, though I think it's actually only really the front section. Then (for me) it blends into a Fairey Delta and then a sort of F4/F5 tail. She's a beauty!
@EdNashsMilitaryMatters >>> 👍👍
U should tell into the microphone more. I almost didnt jump outta my bed when this vid played on rotation. MARK FELTON RULES!!!
Great video as always, but you really need some form of outro.. :)
Please do the HF-24 Marut.
Today ;)
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters awesome
Messerschmitt's micro cars, originally based upon designs meant to be useful for War Vet amputees, are actually pretty neat designs, as well. Cool little cars.
Those little cars go for big money nowadays, i have a motorcycle with basically the same sachs engine but smaller displacement. Runs sweet although its 68 years old!
These are Sudanese Troops at 4:02
MesserschmiTT. There is no letter D in Willie's last name,. Just the way it is written in the Messerschmitt Company Logo that is on-screen at 1:18.
09:38 A pretty looking machine. If it looks good........👍
@ 0:06 i thought "wait, that's the Il-2 Shturmovik", two seconds later, to myself; "no you fool, that's not a fighter"
Talking about promising diminutive jet fighters: Did you already do the Folland Gnat?
Not yet, but I want to do the HAL Ajeet this week, so prob fold them in together.
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters Excellent! I love your chennel! Projects like these indeed deserve more attention. If you want a subject to really sink your teeth into I advise doing NBMR 3 (Nato Basic Military Requirement) for a NATO VTOL strike fighter in the 60ies. I've been thinking about writing a book about it myself for years but somehow never get around to it. Here are some (model) teasers: www.brassee.com/scalemodeling.html
Oh I’m early, also good video
wow. first time hearing about this as an egyptian
Messerschmitt, you legend!
Looks very Dassault in design