Thanks so much for this video. As a former TradCat, and as a Christian and a parent who struggles to find the right balance-to protect my kids from things that are harmful, without sheltering them; to form deep bonds in Christian community, without becoming isolationist; to define healthy boundaries and expectations, without trying to control them; to cultivate a relationship with Christ, without trying to “engineer” the perfect thing to keep them in the Church-I found this helpful. Helpful in the negative: what it looks like when, far too often, that isn’t balanced, that isn’t healthy, and it’s reactionary or extremist. It also resonates with my experience and the experience of a lot of Trad or even just broadly conservative Catholic families I knew. (The point about TradCats even being isolationist within their own parishes hit the nail on the head!) For me, it comes down to a fundamentally fear-based lens for seeing reality: from fear of the “Them” out there, all the way up to being terrified of God himself (not in a “fear of the Lord” sense, but in a “God is basically a big Cthulhu monster just looking for a reason to eternally torment me”… which is unfortunately the norm in Trad culture). If we’re Christian parents trying to parent Christianly, yeah, we need to be smart and discerning. But if fear is motivating our decisions, instead of love, we’ve lost the plot-and we’re going to cause a lot of damage, harm, and heartache in the process.
I have no fear at all that your kids will turn out like me. From what you wrote here, it sounds like you're doing everything right. Keep up the good work!
You can either despair in the law (strict religiosity/strict traditionalism) or you can fall into the mercy of Christ “The law bids us, as we try to fulfill its requirements, and become wearied in our weakness under it, to know how to ask for the help of grace.” - St. Augustine
Trad Catholics are not "despairing in the law" I can assure you they recognize their need for God's grace, hence the sacraments that they probably receive much more often than most Catholics, especially Confession.
It’s it truly puritanical or is it just devout? For example, in my experience, trad Catholics are quite joyful with big, close extended families, friends, and lots of social gatherings, some moderate drinking, dances, etc. We take our faith seriously and also try to do gentle, gracious (not angry or pushy) evangelism, and works of mercy and charity. What specifically is puritanical? The fact that we dress modestly??
@@Antonia_D no..... it's the shunning, the antiquated education, the weird social beliefs. And again, it's uniquely American. Trads elsewhere tend not to be like this... at least not to this extent. If all you got from this was "they don't like the way I dress," you need to take a step back and really watch this video and maybe do some self reflection... because none of the "aesthetics" that you seem to be harping on here was mentioned.
I was an ultra conservative/traditionalist before and during the early years of the Francis papacy. I grew tired of resisting him and began to take heed of what he was saying and now I see tradition, politics and basically humanity in a whole new light.
I've visited trad parishes in Australia, USA, canada, Italy, UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and Poland. European trads are generally far more 'normal' compared to American trads I.e. not isolationist
In Germany, for example homeschooling is illegal, so 'trad' kids are forced to integrate, and they're generally well balanced and still strong in faith.
@@nzr4699 - I was at an international conference of a trad group hosted by the American branch of an organization I won't name. The head of their German branch complained he had never had so little beer in his life. A senior member of their Italian branch and I ditched for a bit to have cocktails. There's some serious puritanical stuff infecting American culture that even affects American trads. Your statement is verifiably true.
This is so true! Our TLM parish was blessed with a French FSSP priest, and it made all the difference. He couldn't stand some of the American puritanical nonsense.
@@noahsolomon726 American trad here. In my personal experience (and seeing online trads), the men are **constantly** getting together socially to talk, drink (in good moderation), and have fun.
Honestly, a lot of it is fluff online. My N.O parish is packed every sunday at every time. When I went to TLM masses last summer near me, they were like half full, only about 1/3 of the women were veiled, half were dressed nice and "trad" the other half were sort of normal. Don't get me wrong, the mass was beautiful, but the online trad movements for EO and TradCath are a lot of show. You'll see videos where they act like every mass everywhere is packed, all the women are veiled at TLM and men in dress clothes, etc. Then they'll say that the N.O masses have drums and female deacons, and are pro-lgbtq now and it sucks! What I found was every single N.O I went to besides 1 church, were all great. They had just as much reverence too. They have actual choirs where the TLM I went to didn't. So my personal experience in the suburbs of Chicago and around going to churches, I don't see the tradcath and EO picture they paint online.
I think people who paint that stark black and white picture are pretty out of touch with reality. Once you begin to really integrate yourself into a parish community it heals you of a lot of the antisocial behavior.
@ Yea I initially sort of fell for the trad path thinking, but when you go to all these different places and don't see what is talked about online anywhere, you just find a good parish that let's you live your faith to the fullest. That is not the parishes with TLM by me. Otherwise I have to drive to St. John Cantius in Chicago lol.
Thank you for this interview! As someone who grew up in a sheltered homeschool community with both traditional Catholics and fundamentalist evangelicals and am now interested in more historical forms of Christianity, I have been getting more concerned about converts to more traditional forms of Christianity seem to be embracing ideas about lifestyles in similar ways to many of my childhood friends' parents did as zealous new converts to traditional Christianity, unsustainable ways that have ended poorly with a lot of hurt for everyone involved. I'm thankful that you are bringing Kevin's voice into the conversation on your channel!
@@ZaShiesty In my experience, any of the children in these families have grown up and left religion or abused substances and do not have close ties with their parents. Many of these zealous parents have divorced, or one or both of them have deconstructed. Not always, but often. It seems like there must be more helpful solutions than isolationism and traditionalism that becomes fundamentalism to live and to raise children who are more likely to choose to stay in Christianity.
I am so grateful for Kevin's remarks. After leaving a deeply fundamentalist + traditionalist Catholic community 20 years ago, I still struggle and doubt myself. The kids I grew up with have all become part of their own insular communities where they and their families have little ability to be polite, much less interact normally with others not of their "fold". Their shunning and avoidance were painful to me and very hurtful to my children when we made attempts to socialize with them. Now I realize that no amount of kindness or interest in them will enable them to reciprocate in any level of relationship because of their attitudes toward others who do not act and think as they do. There is something really, really wrong about these types of movements. Thank you for validating my experiences.
I'm so sorry that you also lost your community like I did. That was one of the hardest times that I ever went through. I hope you've got yourself a new community now, with people who's love for you is not determined by your preference for Latin or your love of lacy vestments
I think it’s somewhat telling that Kevin never attempted to define what he means by “reactionary”. Does that mean adherence to Christian sexual ethics? To Christian marriage? To the Nicene creed? To the existence of the supernatural? It isn’t clear. It’s almost like he wants Catholics to give up being … Christian. Dunno - he doesn’t explain it.
As an aspiring convert, regardless of what problems exist in TLM parishes or NO parishes, I’m grateful to the existence of TLM parishes because I would not have kept going to church otherwise. I don’t know what a traditional Catholic is. All I know is that when I go to TLM, I experience something important that I do not experience at NO masses. And I believe that experience is God. Given that, the rest doesn’t matter to me. At my parish in general I see little difference between the TLM and NO attendees. I’d say the NO people are a bit more involved in outreach like SSVP. The TLM volunteer more in religious matters like study groups. That’s my impression from the outside coming in. The guest's experience is not unfamiliar to me however. I grew up Jehovah’s Witness. I do understand how communities can be dangerous and injurious. My ignorant and uninformed opinion is that lifting restrictions on TLM would perhaps cause the TLM parishes to become attended by more moderate catholics which could help temper some of the fundamentalist tendencies that are underlined in this discussion. If I may be so bold as to wield my superior age: this is not a consequence of religion. It’s a consequence of humans. *Every* community is at constant risk of becoming a dangerous entity. From SSPX to your darts club.
As a Catholic, who was raised Fundamentalist protestant, was brought into the Church through the ministry of traditional Catholicism, and who has dropped the epithet for a simple catholicism, I echo some of these concerns. Traditionalism as an ism, has its fill of conspiracy theories, fundamentalist tendencies, and sheltering. I was raised YEC but learned to be open on the question of evolution because the Church is. The second Vatican Council was an invaluable gift to the Church, when understood in line with tradition. Traditionalism is at its best when it focuses on the value of tradition, orthodoxy, connection with the patrimony, reverence, and beauty. I have disassociated myself with it because of the in fighting, cloistering tendencies, conspiracy narratives etc. I have found that there is peace in allowing liberty of viewpoint where the Church allows it. Ecumenism is a gift. And to end my rambling, Catholicism and the search for truth should never be set at odds. There must be no compulsion in matters of religion, because it is a matter of liberty and love.
The teachings on the permissibility of theistic evolution predate V2 - the primary magisterial documents are from Pius XII - and St Augustine taught a metaphorical 7 days
Whether someone appreciates Vatican II is a good litmus test for sanity. Communio theology, Balthasar etc., reverent N.O. masses, are the way forward and are better equipped to address outside forces head on. Traditionalism (not merely being organically traditional here and there where it calls you) tends to solve problems by avoiding them, pretending they aren't there.
Really enjoyed this! I share the concern for much of the radicalism I see online. However, I see very little of it in my local Parish. I only pray that the full implementation of Vatican II takes root and sets the course for our Church moving forward.
It depends on what you mean by “the full implementation of Vat II “. I know what liberal Catholics mean by that Things that were never discussed by the Council Fathers. The old “spirit of Vat II “
@briandelaney9710 Yes, we cannot abuse this "spirit of Vatican II" approach. However, many who level this charge are often engaged in the opposite extreme of a selective or "safe" reading of Vatican II. So you will hear people downplaying or criticizing Nostra Aetate. Or you will hear people who lead with the Council of Trent as though we are still in the early days of the Reformation. Vatican II opened the door to a robust ecumenism that is yet to be fully embraced by all. Although, I would make the case that at the higher levels of the Church the ecumenical project has been making steady progress.
Homeschooling mom of 5- married to an unbelieving spouse- the kids and I attend a Bible church, but my faith has its highs and lows. Constantly doubting myself as a parent an our decisions. Is homeschool isolating our kids? Am I ruining them? Ironically (maybe?), I was raised as an only child in an unbelieving home- daycare as a baby, pre-k - 12th grade public school, bachelors, masters, and doctorate… and here I sit guiding my kids in a totally different way bc the road I took was empty.
Homeschooling can be good or bad - just like every tool. But don't let people convince you that homeschooling in itself is something weird. Is it isolation? Well, do you want to be part of the modern world or do you want to isolate from some of its aspects? Being isolated is not bad in itself. Don't doubt yourself. You'll always be the primary teacher to your kids.
that's great you are raising 5 kids! Homeschooling can be great, and many homeschooled kids I know are better socialised than those who attend school. The isolation thing is tricky for religious parents... it's true that the world is quite toxic, but we can't complete hide kids from the world, and its good that they incrementally encounter the world as they get older. What's important is that you talk to them about how to engage with the world from a christian perspective, to kind of 'immunise' them against the dangers that are out there.
I think people need to familiarize themselves with public education, its origins, and why its role is not because the government likes us and wants us to be educated.
@@Nontradicath hey my dude, you could actually be a very decent public speaker if you intentionally train your brain to cut out the "um's" this is not me throwing an underhanded insult, this is a legit criticism, a pseudo-compliment if you will, because if you can get rid of the "um's" you could be a great orator.
@tuObvii I really appreciate that! And it's this exact reason that I record my videos instead of live streaming them, on my channel - so that I can edit out the "um"s!
Thank you for this very honest interview. I am Catholic and have seen a number of zealous groups form during my lifetime that seem fantastic, only to find out over time that there were also some seriously painful experiences going on.
GREAT interview! As a former traditionalist Catholic myself, whose content focuses on that topic, there is so much that I could say here. I may do a reaction video at some point, but I do want to raise two points: (1) Pretty much everything he said rings true with my experience (which includes being a teacher in a school like the one he described); (2) there are a few Orthodox convert communities out there whose experience echoes what he is describing. I watched this with my wife, who is an ethnic Orthodox believer but who grew up in a parish that converted from the Evangelical Orthdox movement, and she was laughing because so much of it was resonant with her experiences in convert parishes.
His personal experiences with his catholicism are not in any way the experience of most the catholics in the world. This was his experience that shouldn't affect the Truth of the Church.
You’ll be hard pressed to defend those truths when someone like Kevin challenges them. Just saying something is true because the church says so is not enough.
There is not such a thing as many truths. There is only One Truth , as there is Only One God, One Baptism, and One Faith. If this is not what we understand , then we are saying that Jesus is a Lier. Then surely , we are in a big problem.
He is hitting the nail on the head. Isolationism is not great in any denomination. You can be orthodox theologically, and not fearful and clannish. Some homeschooling can have that flavor as well. ( I homeschooled, btw.) I always felt that keeping our doors slammed so shut does no favor to the Gospel. Things are messy in life and in Christ. Come Holy Spirit.
A cradle Catholic but never heard that there were Young Earthers among some of the Catholic Family I mean the originator of the Big Bang concept, Lemaître, was a Roman Catholic priest.
As a former trad, I can confirm that this is a pretty common (if often covert) opinion. I had to fight all the time as a teacher to keep the Young Earthers in our community from presenting it to my students as Catholic dogma.
@@TheRomanOrthodox I went to a Christian Brothers School and don't ever remember this or Anti-Evolution being taught, Because of the Demographics of country we were maybe 50/50 Catholic and other denominations.
@2righthands816 The Catholic Church doesn't "allow" evolution or creationism. It just says that it isn't inconsistent with Catholic Church teaching. But if one is insisting that only YEC is consistent with Scripture and Tradition, then he or she is necessarily contradicting current Catholic Church views on the matter.
Yeah, I'd say 2/3 of my siblings, cousins and I still practice. For further anecdotes, my graduating 8th grade class from my FSSP school was 4 students, only 1 of whom still practices. All in all, chapel wide, I would say that my chapel has a 50% retention rate. Some families (like mine) are above average, others will be below average. My understanding is that the Novus Ordo retention rate is substantially worse than 50%. A quick google makes it look like its about 33%.
@ hi Kevin i believe that from devout families the average is around 2/3 and I'd expect to see that amongst N.O Catholics as well. It's just that the NO mass population tends to have fewer very of the very devout families compared to the Trads
Lots of people say that, and I don't entirely disagree. But you should hear how we spoke about Protestants haha, we did NOT like Protestants very much at all.
Absolutely agree. But this isn't the norm even for most Catholics who like the pre-Vatican II Masses. I guess all that to say, I'm not sure this is a very helpful or enlightening video in general if people are trying to understand the Catholic Church. Feels like it detracts from the authentic conversation of what is means to be a Catholic.
LOL protestants don´t own fundamentalism if any we inherited and I don´t think is a bad thing though. I appreciate fundamentalism so much more than progressivism.
I hope you Austin you will invite in Your UA-cam Channel; Dr. Brant Pitre, Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Francis Beckwith, Dr. John Bergsma, Dr. Robert Haddad, Patrick Madrid, Fr. Chris Alar, Dr. Karlo Broussard, Dr. Peter Kreeft
I I’ve left Traditional Catholicism for Orthodoxy ☦️. I interact extensively with Muslims and I’m not isolated or sheltered, but we’re still in a faith background that is true to Christ with traditions that hasn’t innovated. It’s very mature, intellectual, and faithful to Christ.
How does Mel Gibson’s participation in JRE do any good to “Traditionalism”, let alone to the Catholic faith? I don’t think I’ve ever watched Joe Rogan (nor will I probably) but this thing has been loud enough even for one who has been lazy online lately, like me. So, great timing with this one, Austin. I believe Kevin (I think I’ve interacted with him - probably disagreeing with his views concerning religion and how they probably psychologize the object of faith to defer to subjective experience) can help people detoxify themselves from some of what they’ve been fed up under the badge of “traditionalism”, a thing that got specially palatable to some of the most ferocious online fellows we see around. I hope it doesn’t sound provocative, but, the way I see it, those postures can be a mixture of Crypto-Protestant (under Catholic/ Orthodox aesthetic and maybe, just maybe, a particular corpus of theology that mostly serves to fit that aesthetic) - to be fair, “Protestant” here meaning the typical American Evangelical mindset that is always ready to defy authority as a blameful tyranny or usurpation against the autonomous individual self -, Neo-Pharisaical and, last but not least, conspiratorial tendencies that happen to serve well - for a myriad of reasons - to a non-irrelevant number of American brothers and sisters, unfortunately, specially teenagers and young adults. Maybe the fixation on plots, schemes and twists, the whole “total politicization of life” and the implicit cult of a “political religion” has something to do with that. I don’t know. Not that we can’t see mad RadTrads in Brazil (even Sedevacantists), but they are as ridiculous, and almost absolutely irrelevant, as it gets; my online interactions in Portuguese/ Spanish and English don’t even compare. I tend to view this phenomenon as something quite strange, honestly.
I was an atheist in high school (after a nominal Catholic upbringing), bogged down by many philosophers. I was hooked onto Ayn Rand's objectivism. Loved science. When I became a Christian at University, I was convinced of Young Earth Creationism. At current, my opinion on Young Earth Creationism is that I don't believe anything concerning it that wouldn't equally make me appear absurd in the eyes of modern science than does anyone who believes humanity came from a single parental pair - Adam and Eve. Interestingly enough, theistic evolutionists and those accepting of an old humanity often want to maintain the real existence of Adam and Eve, while trying to conform to modern science in other respects. They do this because they feel like they have the opportunity. However, it is not coherent. And so, I would actually hold that atheistic evolutionists actually capture Genesis better than most Christians today.
Hey Erick, I am a big fan of your work, and I am honored that you took time to watch this episode! Your view that atheistic evolution captures Genesis better than most Christians today is simultaneously very appealing to me (as someone who thinks that mainstream science is correct on evolution) and also very foreign to me. I cannot imagine anyone expressing that view from my FSSP chapel. What exactly do you mean by that? Is it something along the lines of "the spirit of Genesis" vs the historicity or something like that?
@@Nontradicathseems to me like he’s saying Genesis supports YEC, so an atheist saying “I don’t believe Genesis, and for that matter, Catholicism, because I believe in evolution” is more consistent than a Catholic who holds to evolution and believes Genesis is true (as they’re required to). Basically he thinks YEC is the only view consistent with Genesis, so if YEC is false the atheist is right and consistent, but if it’s right, the Catholic evolutionist is wrong and inconsistent His comment was a bit confusing to me as well but I think that’s what he’s saying. Erik is free to correct me.
One of the reasons against women's sufferage is that it divides families. The founding fathers didn't want a mobocracy. Property owning males being the only ones allowed to vote essentially gave each family unit a vote. Husbands were heads of household which is biblical. It wasn't backwards except for excluding based on race. The majority of married women were actually opposed to sufferage. It was appropriate then that the values of the citizens were reflected in their government. Similarly we live in a different egalitarian society now and the voter base reflects that. It doesn't mean that erasing the family unit didn't leave a problem though. Personally I think owning property or having children which both are stakes in society would be good prerequisites for voting.
Precisely, you nailed it. A system where voting was only open to family units would eliminate much of the present cultural insanity and create needed incentives to marry and form families.
@@SinkingStarshipWhat would Jesus say? Blessed are the poor? Beware of the mammon? Give everything to the poor and follow me? Jesus himself would not be allowed to vote in your world! Neither Paul, neither barren women or men and their spouses, neither nuns or monks or priests... What an absurd idea!
@@hei7586It would be inappropriate in that time period. Correct. It's not a one size fits all solution. I'm saying in a pluralistic society with vast wealth inequality and weakening cultural bonds it makes sense.
This comments section remind me a lot of what I experienced in the disability community. I have two kids with intellectual disabilities, and when I was deep into the “disability community,” there were people who were held up as the “example” of what it was like, and acted like this is what it was like for ALL people within that community. Guess what? It’s not. People are individuals with individual experiences. So while it’s great to have different voices out there, keep in mind, no one speaks for ALL of a community.
Those extreme traditionalist communities were my last big stumbling block before converting. I wondered if I could really be in one church with those. It is still very taxing to my patience. And I see a big conflict between keeping church unity and discouraging false or strange teaching.
Kevin, did you use Anne W Carroll’s books? I remember using those at the FSSP school that I went to and even at 8 years old thinking they felt outdated and a weird choice to be using for history class.
@ Wow no way! So funny. I remember feeling like I was in a time capsule. I resonate with so much of your story. FSSP parish with the school that was also my social circle, many cousins who also went, going to a public college and getting a culture shock, etc. I’ve been there and done that. I’m sorry for the bad experience you had; I’ve also seen the shunning and disconnecting firsthand. If parents want their kids to come back to the faith, that’s a surefire way to make sure that doesn’t happen. Btw I’m the co-founder of Trad Recovery, I’d love to sit down and have a chat with you sometime!
@@Nontradicath Awesome! It seems like YT doesn’t like me putting my email address in comments but our email is on the contact page of our website. Shoot me a message and I’d be happy to talk!
@andym5995 email sent! Mine is also on my about page too but you should have mine since I shot you an email already.... Let me know if it doesn't come through - thanks!
Interesting conversation. I'm not Catholic, and especially not a Trad Catholic. Nor am I a fundamentalist, isolationist Evangelical. I find it fascinating that Kevin spent much of the show criticizing his upbringing as a traditional Catholic, yet at the end said everyone in this family grew up to be good adults. I'm trying to make sense of the disconnect here.
@@jamesMartinelli-x2t I married my girlfriend when we were both 22, specifically to avoid living in sin. What do you think is so revolutionary about that? Are you a modernist who thinks it is revolutionary to **not** live together before marriage? Or have I misunderstood you?
If the comments here represent the "average Catholic" ... then that is a worrying sign! Luckily, I know that is not the case! The average Catholic is good person who loves God and loves his neighbor.
@ Joe Schmid has a really good argument, in my view, that an agnostic must pray agnostic prayers. Reason being that being agnostic is claiming you don’t know, and there’s an equal or almost equal shot of a god or gods existing or not. Not praying would be an expression of pure disbelief, while praying causes no problem if atheism is true, it’s just a few seconds wasted, while if god does exist and if he was good and could hear you, you would have everything to gain. But I would only tweak it to be if you’re agnostic about an omnibenevolent god. Personally I’m atheist to an omnibenevolent god, but I’m agnostic still to a deist, evil, or some god or gods well beyond us. I do pray agnostic prayers sometimes, although due to my religious trauma from traditionalism, it’s a trigger for my OCD and panic attacks.
I am not sure what "earnest" might entail. I will explain and let you judge whether or not this counts as earnest - I do pray as an agnostic. I think about it like a flare that I shoot off from a desert island. I don't see any boats or planes around, but I shoot the flare off anyway, in case anyone else is around. So, is that earnest? I'm not sure.
"Trad Catholicism" is already starting to become its own denomination. Sedevacantism in my opinion already falls under the category of being protestant.
All truth is God's truth, but human reasoning is weak. The fall hits hard and our reason can fail. A lot of times kids who weren't properly formed start getting objections that they can't handle. Also, people like the traditional aesthetics and ceremonies, but won't do the actual work of praying, fasting, and almsgiving. These last two things make their faith weak and superficial. The only reason traditionalism has to be called that is because the times are so degenerate that we have to return to something that was good. Modern times are evil. God and his traditions are the stability we need in tumultuous times
I have a video that might interest you, called "Traditional Catholics wear Rose Tinted Glasses: An empirical rebuttal to Michael Knowles". In it, I challenge the idea that these modern times are uniquely evil. For instance, globally, violent crime is at an all time low in all of recorded history.
@@Nontradicathehh I’ve read Pinkerton’s book with similar claims. They’re really shifting goal posts and narrowing what is important to say things are actually improving. That being said, if your keyword is “uniquely”, you could be right there and all I know is it’s unique for me.
I actually grew up in New Jersey, so I got my BS in Chemical Engineering from the New Jersey Institute of Technology. Not as prestigious as Purdue! But it's served me well.
Of boy! You've just interviewed a refugee from the “trad bubble.” He asserts that trads are both reactionary and isolationist, and, while this is true for inhabitants of the bubble, it isn't universal among trads. Certainly, traditionalism is reactionary (which I mean in the philosophical sense as a disposition opposing modernism, revolution, progressivism and secularism), but what Kevin is describing is the sociology of a particular set of trads who endured official persecution by the powers-that-be following Vatican II (something recurring under the current pope). These conditions created a siege mentality where they felt the need to isolate themselves, and, as such, it was REACTIVE, not actively reactionary. I've known lots of refugees from the Catholic bubble, but in my experience, at a traditional parish, the cool people (artists, authors, musicians, legal scholars, journalists, theologians, old punk rockers like me, etc.) tend to avoid the ideologically possessed “benedict option” isolationists. The mainstreaming of “traditional” Catholicism (which used to be called simply Catholic before Vatican II) brought in a lot of new blood that, to a healthy degree, is breaking the stranglehold that these people think they have on the traditional mode of life. Grouping the SSPX, FSSP and ICRSS (the Institute of Christ the King, i.e., the St John Cantius folk) is absurd. For one, ICRSS celebrate the Novus Ordo. The SSPX are more disposed to the bubble mentality. And I can't think of any Catholic in a state of grace who would respond to their child apostatizing with the threat of murder, rather than with prayers, fasting and penance: these are nut jobs! Are there dysfunctional lost souls in traditional parishes who are seemingly from the cookie cutter caricature factory described here? Yes, and they are poor unfortunate souls, but shaking tambourines in yoga pants by women at a Novus Ordo in the sanctuary breeds healthy reactionary Catholics that flee the vulgar and mundane “worship” there. The traditional bubble people can be hostile to those they deem insufficiently “trad,” but such aberrations can be cured by an Evangelical zeal for the salvation of souls and old fashioned charity towards those who wish to grow in grace with the help of the sacraments. Diocesan Latin Masses kind of suck. It's usually staffed by some gay heretic priest that's imposed by a bad bishop, and usually in an ugly church not purposefully built for the old Mass. You won't get a homeschool coöperative there as one would at an FSSP parish, some of which are REALLY good, some are bad as in Kevin’s experience. I miss my FSSP parish where we had a good library, cool people, a coöperative vegetable garden (which helped the poor among us), and a lively coffee hour after Mass where everything from politics to literature could be politely discussed. I miss the pot luck with savory food cooked by little old ladies. If idolaters on college campuses discussion evolution (which lacks a transitional fossil record and uses functional morphology to cobble together a blatantly ideological construct) is someone's idea of a good enriching time, then, have fun with that, but don't expect anything but skepticism from authentic traditionalism; mean trad bubble types might declare a shunning jihad on you, but one must learn to either laugh or cry at their narrowness and misery.
Firstly, my parents are not "nut jobs", and I will not stand for anyone bad mouthing them like that. They are deeply wounded people, who are convinced that I will burn in hell for eternity - so of course they reacted strongly! I would react the exact same way if I thought that my child was at serious risk of eternal torture! We all would! Secondly, I am not familiar with the ICRSS (the Institute of Christ the King, as you called it). I was talking about the ICKSP, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. The ICKSP does offer the TLM.
@Nontradicath - you intimated almost to the point of being explicit that you were threatened with murder. That's not balanced behavior if true. If you were so threatened, that's a crime. Not since the days of Roman paganism has it been acceptable for a father to exercise or express the right of a paterfamilias to put to death his child. If you were being irresponsibility hyperbolic in your rhetoric, you painted your parents as nut jobs, albeit you certainly presented them as cultists exhibiting cult-like behavior which I found convincing and accurate; furthermore, you painted all trads as fringe nut jobs. Institutum Christi Regis Summi Sacerdotis (ICRSS) is the Latin abbreviation of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (ISKSP), their formal name.
@@noahsolomon726 What someone says in order to try to save their child from hell does not make someone a nut job. I cannot believe that I am defending my own family to you haha, this is nuts!
I am only 20 minutes in, and I wonder if his grandparents ever got permission from the bishop to have mass said at their church. Doing so is so against catholic doctrine its insane. Reading Ignatius on submission to the bishop should squash that tendency, but somehow some trads feel its super based to disobey Ignatius....😬. I came in to the church through the FSSP, but now go a NO parish for other reasons. The FSSP, having their roots in the SSPX are going to have a hard time divesting themselves from that schismatic mindset that breeds isolation, and I hope they can do better at teaching that their parishioners. I have a soft spot for them, but when my priest gave a super short homily on easter vigil that was about how we shouldn't change the liturgy I knew it was time to leave soon.
Only halfway through, but this story reads like a tragedy so far. “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it”.
Gregorian Chant? It's a name because of an angel's message to Pope Gregory. He told the pope that our inherited chant derives from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. It could be called simply Old Hebrew Temple Chant or Jerusalem Chant.
'If your brother will not listen to two of you...' Shunning is "biblical" - Matthew 18: 15 - 17. Not taking to Protestants and other heretics is 'biblical' - Romans 16: 17 and 18.
This didn't seem to really address FSSP or SSPX issues as much as being incredibly isolated. While interesting, this sounds a bit more like a person who went hat tip fedora Reddit liberal / atheist but didn't have solid criticisms of Trads in general. More his family specifically
I have videos on my channel where I actually propose arguments for why the claims of Catholicism are false, but that was not the purpose of this conversation here.
@@Nontradicath Id be interested to hear those. Is there a particular one you'd recommend checking out first? I think the format did focus on personal story which can convey things differently for sure
I was skimming through but never saw where he explained why when he left FSSP, he didn’t stay in the Catholic Church. And then find a liberal, centrist or traditional / conservative parish . Kind of leads to other questions .
That is a whole other question, and its one that we did not get into in this episode. That wasn't the goal of this conversation, though I am an open book!
@@Nontradicath fair enough. But some might say : “If he doesn’t even accept vanilla Catholicism, maybe I need to take his characterization of Traditional Catholicism with a grain of salt”. Not saying I do
Ok soon as you said “you won’t be part of the family anymore” This is categorically out of order / insane/ cult like. This is definitely not how most traditional Catholics are here in the UK. If they are then it’s insane. Puritanism is not the way forward.
I've heard that Traditionalism in Europe is very very different than Traditionalism in the United States. The more I hear from people like you, the more I think that this is true.
Traditional Catholicism often leads to a strict legalism, which is similar to the jansenists or the pelagians. I believe it is what Pope Francis refers to as rigidity. I believe there is a freedom from the prescriptions, not the commandments or the law, but the prescriptions of how we ought to practice our faith. For example the Church teaches we restore justification through confession. However as a faithful Catholic myself, we have to move from this radical tradition, and into relationship with Christ, Christ himself says he desires “mercy and not sacrifice”. God is a loving Father and faith in Christ, for me specifically the embodiment of him in the Eucharist is what saves. Christ saves. Gods gracious gift of faith is what allows us to receive him, no matter our state. Clean or unclean. Mortal sin and venial sins are real, but Christ comes also to remove our guilt and shame, thus the power of sin is diminished. The magisterium is perfect, but as St. Paul says we move from from breast milk to solid food in the faith. I do not claim I have a deeper understanding, only that Christ saves, and he will reveal to little one’s for those who seek him. I only hope I’m one of his sheep. Austin, I pray you continue to persevere in your quest for Truth. The Catholic Church is true, and founded by Christ, its rigours, intellect and seeming legalism all have a purpose, and purpose of the law is always fulfilled in Christ, and in our own lives. I will continue praying for you 🙏 God Bless
The Second Vatican Council is an ecumenical council of the Church. Anyone who rejects it is not really a Catholic but a schismatic at best. It is not "traditional" Catholic at all; it is more similar to Orthodox or Protestants in its relation to the Church if not in theology. Fundamentalism in any religion is never actually a return to the true form of the religion but rather a modern attempt to reclaim something that was not ever there and can lead down dangerous paths.
Absurd demonic nonsense. Vatican II was an attack on the Holy Catholic Church by enemies inside the Church. Anyone that accepts and promotes the heretical Vatican Council II is doing the work of the devil.
Women voting? Evolution? And complaining about books from 1950 using out of date terminology? The last complaint is anachronistic. The second has been debunked by many - try Dr. E. Michael Jones. The first - well I'll let Pope Pius X respond: "women in government is sinful". My question is - with your proposition of debunking myths it appears that you want the approval of 'enlightened' modern personages?
The idea that no women should be able to vote but all men should be able to vote is weird. Democracy is a very flawed means of governance, limiting the voting block to males doesn’t somehow get around this.
I’ve been following your exploration of the traditions of Christianity that are outside of your prior experience and have generally been very impressed but this show is very unfortunate. The young man you interview is heavily loaded and deeply wounded by his personal experience but I also suspect he’s got some deep problems because of it, exacerbated by a huge ego. But these call into question his attitudes and statements. There is no doubt some desire for vengeance on those who hurt him, mostly by his parents. But they do not really represent Catholicism. It would have been helpful to have defined what he meant by “traditional Catholicism” when you began because The groups he speaks about are actually in a form of schism from the rest of us as they have refused to recognize developments of the post-Vatican II period. Genuine Traditional Catholics abound in the Catholic church. Many Latin Masses are available in most dioceses, with the approval of the bishop and of Rome. Even novus ordo Masses that are faithful to the rubrics can also be called traditional. All of those should not be tarred with the brush of the schismists. Without definition it’s easy to get confused. There was a family who were in my middle of the road Catholic parish in New York City for a short time. Most of us thought they were very strange. They never fit in and it wasn’t a huge surprise when they moved some place in Ohio (from New York) to join a parish run by one of those groups. We were relieved but I felt very sorry for their little girl and baby son who would now be around the same age as he is. I sincerely hope that they have not turned out to be as sad and twisted as this young man. He is definitely a negative nellie and actually quite vicious about it. I will pray that he finds healing for his deeply wounded soul and return to the regular Catholic church.
Hello Margaret, thank you so much for the thoughtful post. I doubt that I can persuade you with a single comment, but I do love my parents. They've apologized, too! Also, the FSSP is not in schism. The FSSP is fully in line with Rome. Anyway, I would love to talk to you over the phone sometime. You seem like a really thoughtful person and I think that you have valuable insight.
@ Thank you for the invitation, but I must decline. For one thing, I am 77 years old and don’t have the time or energy to engage with you about this. I do have many years of lived experience, however, having grown up in the pre-Vatican II church, gone through ALL the changes of the last 60 years and never wavered in my love for Christ and his church. The experience you had is very far outside of true Catholicism. It seems more in tune with Anabaptists like the Amish or with the Hasidic Jews. Therefore, it isn’t what I would call traditional. It’s an unhealthy aberration. I’m sorry it produced such anger and hate in you, but I cannot engage with that other than to pray for you. I work in an entirely different way to represent the true tradition to the world, through my blog about the history of art. I invite you to check it out at imaginemdei.blogspot.com. You might find it helpful. God guide you into peace and lead your wounded soul back to the true church. Tradition is not your enemy, a warped kind of misguided traditionalism is, but that is not the church.
I literally got married to avoid sinning. My engagement was only 3 months long because my job told me they were moving me 700 miles away and I didn't want to "live in sin" with my girlfriend, so, I made her my wife. What exactly did you mean when you said that I "abandoned the faith" just so that I could go sin? I am probably misunderstanding you.
@@piface3016 I'm not an atheist, nor am I a materialist, I'm agnostic on both fronts. And while it's true that I am not convinced that contraception is bad, my wife and I actually pretty much follow Church teaching on the marital act. But we're just naturally infertile, so, it's easy for us to follow Church teaching on this one haha, and we don't do so on purpose.
@@piface3016 I am saddened that this guy lost his faith and I hope he returns to the Catholic church as some stage... But.. bro like really? That was a really unhelpful comment.
It saddens me that he has these views of traditional Catholics. Those who attend FSSP Masses for instance aren't trying to hide from the world. I was raised in what I consider a traditional Catholic home. We attend Novus Ordo Masses because there was nothing else. We went to Catholic school through 8th grade. We were never "sheltered" from society. Yes, High School was a big step as it was for everyone (I mean even those who were in a higher grade as the school building was brand new and we were all lost). We assimilated well we went to ball games, pep rallies, club meetings, etc.and never lost our faith. What many traditional Catholics (and non-Catholics) are afraid of is that they don't want their children "indoctrinated". They want them to learn the "three 'Rs"" and not transgenderism, CRT etc. They want to be the ones to teach their children morality and ethics.
It is 100% the case that my experience is not anyone else's experience except my own. That being said, I don't call the way that you grew up "Traditional", and so, when I am talking about being isolated, I am specifically excluding people who grew up in the Novus Ordo from that description.
@@Nontradicath Your experience sounds more Amish than Catholic. By traditional I mean a home where we attended Mass each Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation, as well as Ash Wednesday and Holy Week. In my part of the country Catholics were a distinct minority, so we had to have interaction with people of other faiths (especially Southern Baptist). We didn't let that dilute our faith though. I attended a (supposedly) Catholic college but most of the students were protestant. I consider myself a traditional Catholic because I prefer many of the old ways. I find many of the implementations of Vatican II to be harmful to the Church. I find many of the old ways to be more reverent and meaningful. My wife (who converted to Catholicism before I met her) and I keep the tradition of saying prayers together each evening (something I highly recommend for all married couples). Your experience may be your own, but you make it sound like it's the way with all traditionalists and it's not..
@ I'm not sure if you watched the full episode, but I also make the Amish comparison. I stop short of saying that we are fully Amish, since we did adopt technology eventually, but we typically did adopt technology late. I also firmly agree with you that not all Trads had an experience like mine. This is what I said in that first comment! I always make a point of saying that "Kevin is not everyone".
We need more traditionalism. No Pope like John Paul 2 should be kissing the Quran or praying in a mosque. If you know Muslims teach everyone who believe Jesus is the son of god will go to hell then why would you kiss a book that has those words? Even vatican 2 teaches Muslims and Catholics worship the same god. That is logically impossible. We need more traditionalism. The tradition is to follow Jesus and we need that so badly. Jesus is the son of god. Jesus is the messiah. Jesus did die for that. Jews and Muslims don’t believe that. So Popes need to stop kissing imams. Stop praying in synagogues. And stop going to mosque.
@@kennynoNope I'm with you on the kissing the Quran. I would never do that, myself. I am keen to get your thoughts after you've watched the full video, because you and I might not be as far apart as you might think.
@@kennynoNope Of course, I am an open book! I just tell people I am agnostic on the existence of God and that I grew up Catholic but I do not practice anymore. If I tell people I am ex-Catholic, sometimes they say "Once Catholic always Catholic!", and that is true to some extent (indelible mark on my soul and all that). But then if I call myself a "Catholic Agnostic", people get upset, and understandably so, because a Catholic who doesn't even claim to be a Theist is a very bad Catholic, if Catholic at all. So, yeah, long winded answer and I am sorry for all the words, but I say all this to try to be as up-front and clear as possible.
Very disgusting thing to say and to project onto people who likely want nothing to do with a vile subculture like that. You really, really, really need to interrogate what makes you feel this way and MORE importantly, what drives you to verbalize these kinds of things.
I don’t know that I would phrase it that way, but there is a Catholic public figure who talked about the masculinity of kneeling to receive the body of our Lord on your mouth in an odd way that made me a bit uncomfortable.
This guy is just bitter. He should appreciate what his parents gave him instead of acting out. This was just a therapy session. Austin, if you're going to have this guy on to dunk on trad Caths then you need to do one on the eastern orthodox. They're probably more radical than the trad Caths.
That’s not very charitable. Kevin is very respectful to people who are practicing Catholics/Christians. This can be known from the barest glance at his channel. He is not whatever new atheist caricature you might have in your head.
@@TheRomanOrthodox St. Benedict founded the Benedictines. And the men who went through Dr. Senior's program who then became Monks depend on their own hard manual labor, as well as donations that many faithful Catholics give them. To the extent that a very small portion of their income is based on sales of CD's of them chanting, I'm sure their hope is that those who purchase are using it in prayer, not for the "chill vibes"
@jacobrodriguez7771 I am perfectly aware of the history. I am just saying that the monks who came through his program also sell Gregorian Chant CDs. I am sure they know their CDs are used for both easy listening and prayer. I might agree with you in principle, but trying to gatekeep Gregorian Chant is obsessive in the extreme. Settle down. The man can listen to Gregorian Chant if he wants to.
"Reactionary" is really just a slur against traditionalist, whether it be in regards to politics or religion. Everything that exists is in part a reaction to something else. Do you really not understand that modern mainline evangelical protestant Christianity developed in large part as a reaction to our scientific materialist secular culture? Or that that scientific materialist secular culture developed as a reaction to the so called enlightenment and the industrial/technological revolution? Everything is a reaction to everything else. It is really a meaningless term.
Thanks so much for this video. As a former TradCat, and as a Christian and a parent who struggles to find the right balance-to protect my kids from things that are harmful, without sheltering them; to form deep bonds in Christian community, without becoming isolationist; to define healthy boundaries and expectations, without trying to control them; to cultivate a relationship with Christ, without trying to “engineer” the perfect thing to keep them in the Church-I found this helpful.
Helpful in the negative: what it looks like when, far too often, that isn’t balanced, that isn’t healthy, and it’s reactionary or extremist. It also resonates with my experience and the experience of a lot of Trad or even just broadly conservative Catholic families I knew. (The point about TradCats even being isolationist within their own parishes hit the nail on the head!)
For me, it comes down to a fundamentally fear-based lens for seeing reality: from fear of the “Them” out there, all the way up to being terrified of God himself (not in a “fear of the Lord” sense, but in a “God is basically a big Cthulhu monster just looking for a reason to eternally torment me”… which is unfortunately the norm in Trad culture).
If we’re Christian parents trying to parent Christianly, yeah, we need to be smart and discerning. But if fear is motivating our decisions, instead of love, we’ve lost the plot-and we’re going to cause a lot of damage, harm, and heartache in the process.
I have no fear at all that your kids will turn out like me. From what you wrote here, it sounds like you're doing everything right. Keep up the good work!
You can either despair in the law (strict religiosity/strict traditionalism) or you can fall into the mercy of Christ
“The law bids us, as we try to fulfill its requirements, and become wearied in our weakness under it, to know how to ask for the help of grace.”
- St. Augustine
Trad Catholics are not "despairing in the law" I can assure you they recognize their need for God's grace, hence the sacraments that they probably receive much more often than most Catholics, especially Confession.
American trads have a deeply puritanical spirit that is uniquely American. It is very much my experience and the experience of MANY.
It’s it truly puritanical or is it just devout? For example, in my experience, trad Catholics are quite joyful with big, close extended families, friends, and lots of social gatherings, some moderate drinking, dances, etc. We take our faith seriously and also try to do gentle, gracious (not angry or pushy) evangelism, and works of mercy and charity.
What specifically is puritanical? The fact that we dress modestly??
@@Antonia_D no..... it's the shunning, the antiquated education, the weird social beliefs. And again, it's uniquely American. Trads elsewhere tend not to be like this... at least not to this extent. If all you got from this was "they don't like the way I dress," you need to take a step back and really watch this video and maybe do some self reflection... because none of the "aesthetics" that you seem to be harping on here was mentioned.
Exactly my perception.
@@Antonia_D the overall ethos is very descendent from American Puritanism
Liberal Catholics aren’t Catholic, so true Catholicism will seem extreme to these worldly heretics.
Where are my Trad Recovery people, I know y’all are in this comments section 😆
Recover? I get to the mass of my youth ( born in 55) once a month. The mass is 40 miles away !
I was an ultra conservative/traditionalist before and during the early years of the Francis papacy. I grew tired of resisting him and began to take heed of what he was saying and now I see tradition, politics and basically humanity in a whole new light.
You embraced the fruit of Satan - modernism.
I've visited trad parishes in Australia, USA, canada, Italy, UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, and Poland. European trads are generally far more 'normal' compared to American trads I.e. not isolationist
In Germany, for example homeschooling is illegal, so 'trad' kids are forced to integrate, and they're generally well balanced and still strong in faith.
@@nzr4699 - I was at an international conference of a trad group hosted by the American branch of an organization I won't name. The head of their German branch complained he had never had so little beer in his life. A senior member of their Italian branch and I ditched for a bit to have cocktails. There's some serious puritanical stuff infecting American culture that even affects American trads. Your statement is verifiably true.
This is so true! Our TLM parish was blessed with a French FSSP priest, and it made all the difference. He couldn't stand some of the American puritanical nonsense.
Most of these parishes are also not self standing, but integrated into regular parishes, sharing a church with the regular parish.
@@noahsolomon726 American trad here. In my personal experience (and seeing online trads), the men are **constantly** getting together socially to talk, drink (in good moderation), and have fun.
Honestly, a lot of it is fluff online. My N.O parish is packed every sunday at every time. When I went to TLM masses last summer near me, they were like half full, only about 1/3 of the women were veiled, half were dressed nice and "trad" the other half were sort of normal. Don't get me wrong, the mass was beautiful, but the online trad movements for EO and TradCath are a lot of show. You'll see videos where they act like every mass everywhere is packed, all the women are veiled at TLM and men in dress clothes, etc. Then they'll say that the N.O masses have drums and female deacons, and are pro-lgbtq now and it sucks!
What I found was every single N.O I went to besides 1 church, were all great. They had just as much reverence too. They have actual choirs where the TLM I went to didn't. So my personal experience in the suburbs of Chicago and around going to churches, I don't see the tradcath and EO picture they paint online.
It depends on the region. It’s the opposite where I’m at, Novus Ordos half full Latin Mass and reverent Novus Ordos completely full.
I think people who paint that stark black and white picture are pretty out of touch with reality.
Once you begin to really integrate yourself into a parish community it heals you of a lot of the antisocial behavior.
@ Yea I initially sort of fell for the trad path thinking, but when you go to all these different places and don't see what is talked about online anywhere, you just find a good parish that let's you live your faith to the fullest. That is not the parishes with TLM by me. Otherwise I have to drive to St. John Cantius in Chicago lol.
Then you’ve been very lucky. That’s all I can say
@@CatholicsForTrumpIt definitely depends on the region. I find the same as you, although the reverent NO I go to are pretty full.
Thank you for this interview! As someone who grew up in a sheltered homeschool community with both traditional Catholics and fundamentalist evangelicals and am now interested in more historical forms of Christianity, I have been getting more concerned about converts to more traditional forms of Christianity seem to be embracing ideas about lifestyles in similar ways to many of my childhood friends' parents did as zealous new converts to traditional Christianity, unsustainable ways that have ended poorly with a lot of hurt for everyone involved. I'm thankful that you are bringing Kevin's voice into the conversation on your channel!
Name how they are unsustainable
@@ZaShiesty In my experience, any of the children in these families have grown up and left religion or abused substances and do not have close ties with their parents. Many of these zealous parents have divorced, or one or both of them have deconstructed. Not always, but often. It seems like there must be more helpful solutions than isolationism and traditionalism that becomes fundamentalism to live and to raise children who are more likely to choose to stay in Christianity.
I am so grateful for Kevin's remarks. After leaving a deeply fundamentalist + traditionalist Catholic community 20 years ago, I still struggle and doubt myself. The kids I grew up with have all become part of their own insular communities where they and their families have little ability to be polite, much less interact normally with others not of their "fold". Their shunning and avoidance were painful to me and very hurtful to my children when we made attempts to socialize with them. Now I realize that no amount of kindness or interest in them will enable them to reciprocate in any level of relationship because of their attitudes toward others who do not act and think as they do. There is something really, really wrong about these types of movements. Thank you for validating my experiences.
I'm so sorry that you also lost your community like I did. That was one of the hardest times that I ever went through. I hope you've got yourself a new community now, with people who's love for you is not determined by your preference for Latin or your love of lacy vestments
I think it’s somewhat telling that Kevin never attempted to define what he means by “reactionary”.
Does that mean adherence to Christian sexual ethics? To Christian marriage? To the Nicene creed? To the existence of the supernatural?
It isn’t clear. It’s almost like he wants Catholics to give up being … Christian.
Dunno - he doesn’t explain it.
@@erc9468 by "reactionary" , I mean something like "counter cultural", "antiquarian", or "dislike of anything modern or liberal". Stuff like that.
As an aspiring convert, regardless of what problems exist in TLM parishes or NO parishes, I’m grateful to the existence of TLM parishes because I would not have kept going to church otherwise.
I don’t know what a traditional Catholic is. All I know is that when I go to TLM, I experience something important that I do not experience at NO masses. And I believe that experience is God.
Given that, the rest doesn’t matter to me.
At my parish in general I see little difference between the TLM and NO attendees. I’d say the NO people are a bit more involved in outreach like SSVP. The TLM volunteer more in religious matters like study groups.
That’s my impression from the outside coming in.
The guest's experience is not unfamiliar to me however. I grew up Jehovah’s Witness. I do understand how communities can be dangerous and injurious. My ignorant and uninformed opinion is that lifting restrictions on TLM would perhaps cause the TLM parishes to become attended by more moderate catholics which could help temper some of the fundamentalist tendencies that are underlined in this discussion. If I may be so bold as to wield my superior age: this is not a consequence of religion. It’s a consequence of humans. *Every* community is at constant risk of becoming a dangerous entity. From SSPX to your darts club.
This is a great comment. And I agree - I think that the restriction on the Latin Mass is only going to cause further radicalization.
As a Catholic, who was raised Fundamentalist protestant, was brought into the Church through the ministry of traditional Catholicism, and who has dropped the epithet for a simple catholicism, I echo some of these concerns. Traditionalism as an ism, has its fill of conspiracy theories, fundamentalist tendencies, and sheltering. I was raised YEC but learned to be open on the question of evolution because the Church is. The second Vatican Council was an invaluable gift to the Church, when understood in line with tradition. Traditionalism is at its best when it focuses on the value of tradition, orthodoxy, connection with the patrimony, reverence, and beauty. I have disassociated myself with it because of the in fighting, cloistering tendencies, conspiracy narratives etc. I have found that there is peace in allowing liberty of viewpoint where the Church allows it. Ecumenism is a gift. And to end my rambling, Catholicism and the search for truth should never be set at odds. There must be no compulsion in matters of religion, because it is a matter of liberty and love.
The teachings on the permissibility of theistic evolution predate V2 - the primary magisterial documents are from Pius XII - and St Augustine taught a metaphorical 7 days
@flyingmotorcycles Agreed, I wasn't making a causation between the two.
Ecumenism is another -ism
Whether someone appreciates Vatican II is a good litmus test for sanity. Communio theology, Balthasar etc., reverent N.O. masses, are the way forward and are better equipped to address outside forces head on. Traditionalism (not merely being organically traditional here and there where it calls you) tends to solve problems by avoiding them, pretending they aren't there.
Evolution is of the devil.
Really enjoyed this! I share the concern for much of the radicalism I see online. However, I see very little of it in my local Parish. I only pray that the full implementation of Vatican II takes root and sets the course for our Church moving forward.
It depends on what you mean by “the full implementation of Vat II “. I know what liberal Catholics mean by that Things that were never discussed by the Council Fathers. The old “spirit of Vat II “
@briandelaney9710 Yes, we cannot abuse this "spirit of Vatican II" approach. However, many who level this charge are often engaged in the opposite extreme of a selective or "safe" reading of Vatican II. So you will hear people downplaying or criticizing Nostra Aetate. Or you will hear people who lead with the Council of Trent as though we are still in the early days of the Reformation. Vatican II opened the door to a robust ecumenism that is yet to be fully embraced by all. Although, I would make the case that at the higher levels of the Church the ecumenical project has been making steady progress.
Vatican II is of the devil. Wake up.
Homeschooling mom of 5- married to an unbelieving spouse- the kids and I attend a Bible church, but my faith has its highs and lows. Constantly doubting myself as a parent an our decisions. Is homeschool isolating our kids? Am I ruining them? Ironically (maybe?), I was raised as an only child in an unbelieving home- daycare as a baby, pre-k - 12th grade public school, bachelors, masters, and doctorate… and here I sit guiding my kids in a totally different way bc the road I took was empty.
God bless you, may your faith edify your husband and children.
If it was empty, how did you end up where you are?
Homeschooling can be good or bad - just like every tool. But don't let people convince you that homeschooling in itself is something weird. Is it isolation? Well, do you want to be part of the modern world or do you want to isolate from some of its aspects? Being isolated is not bad in itself. Don't doubt yourself. You'll always be the primary teacher to your kids.
that's great you are raising 5 kids! Homeschooling can be great, and many homeschooled kids I know are better socialised than those who attend school. The isolation thing is tricky for religious parents... it's true that the world is quite toxic, but we can't complete hide kids from the world, and its good that they incrementally encounter the world as they get older. What's important is that you talk to them about how to engage with the world from a christian perspective, to kind of 'immunise' them against the dangers that are out there.
I think people need to familiarize themselves with public education, its origins, and why its role is not because the government likes us and wants us to be educated.
This should be an interesting discussion.
Kevin’s work on the Tilma and the apparition legend were invaluable to me.
I am glad that my work has been able to serve you!
@@Nontradicath hey my dude, you could actually be a very decent public speaker if you intentionally train your brain to cut out the "um's" this is not me throwing an underhanded insult, this is a legit criticism, a pseudo-compliment if you will, because if you can get rid of the "um's" you could be a great orator.
@tuObvii I really appreciate that! And it's this exact reason that I record my videos instead of live streaming them, on my channel - so that I can edit out the "um"s!
Thank you for this very honest interview. I am Catholic and have seen a number of zealous groups form during my lifetime that seem fantastic, only to find out over time that there were also some seriously painful experiences going on.
GREAT interview! As a former traditionalist Catholic myself, whose content focuses on that topic, there is so much that I could say here. I may do a reaction video at some point, but I do want to raise two points: (1) Pretty much everything he said rings true with my experience (which includes being a teacher in a school like the one he described); (2) there are a few Orthodox convert communities out there whose experience echoes what he is describing. I watched this with my wife, who is an ethnic Orthodox believer but who grew up in a parish that converted from the Evangelical Orthdox movement, and she was laughing because so much of it was resonant with her experiences in convert parishes.
If you do do a reaction video, please tag me! I would love to watch! I also just subscribed to your channel!
@Nontradicath Will do!
His personal experiences with his catholicism are not in any way the experience of most the catholics in the world. This was his experience that shouldn't affect the Truth of the Church.
He was in a schismatic church FSSP not Roman Catholic but pre Vatican II
You’ll be hard pressed to defend those truths when someone like Kevin challenges them. Just saying something is true because the church says so is not enough.
There is not such a thing as many truths. There is only One Truth , as there is Only One God, One Baptism, and One Faith. If this is not what we understand , then we are saying that Jesus is a Lier. Then surely , we are in a big problem.
He is hitting the nail on the head. Isolationism is not great in any denomination. You can be orthodox theologically, and not fearful and clannish. Some homeschooling can have that flavor as well. ( I homeschooled, btw.) I always felt that keeping our doors slammed so shut does no favor to the Gospel. Things are messy in life and in Christ. Come Holy Spirit.
A cradle Catholic but never heard that there were Young Earthers among some of the Catholic Family I mean the originator of the Big Bang concept, Lemaître, was a Roman Catholic priest.
As a former trad, I can confirm that this is a pretty common (if often covert) opinion. I had to fight all the time as a teacher to keep the Young Earthers in our community from presenting it to my students as Catholic dogma.
@@TheRomanOrthodox I went to a Christian Brothers School and don't ever remember this or Anti-Evolution being taught, Because of the Demographics of country we were maybe 50/50 Catholic and other denominations.
@@TheRomanOrthodox Neither "Young Earth creation" nor evolution are dogma. Both are allowed by the Catholic Church.
@2righthands816 The Catholic Church doesn't "allow" evolution or creationism. It just says that it isn't inconsistent with Catholic Church teaching. But if one is insisting that only YEC is consistent with Scripture and Tradition, then he or she is necessarily contradicting current Catholic Church views on the matter.
@lizledbitter6711 The Christian Brothers are not traditionalist, so that is inapplicable.
So about 2/3 of his cousin group are devout trads. That's about the retention rate we'd expect from a well functioning church.
Especially in today’s paganizing society.
Yeah, I'd say 2/3 of my siblings, cousins and I still practice. For further anecdotes, my graduating 8th grade class from my FSSP school was 4 students, only 1 of whom still practices. All in all, chapel wide, I would say that my chapel has a 50% retention rate. Some families (like mine) are above average, others will be below average. My understanding is that the Novus Ordo retention rate is substantially worse than 50%. A quick google makes it look like its about 33%.
@ hi Kevin i believe that from devout families the average is around 2/3 and I'd expect to see that amongst N.O Catholics as well. It's just that the NO mass population tends to have fewer very of the very devout families compared to the Trads
@ That's fair! That seems right to me, about the self-selection bias in Trad culture.
This guy seems to have been part of a community that were strict in more of a Protestant sense than Catholic.
Lots of people say that, and I don't entirely disagree. But you should hear how we spoke about Protestants haha, we did NOT like Protestants very much at all.
@ oh dear! I am in an FSSP parish and it is so not like that. But we have a lot of Protestant converts.
Absolutely agree. But this isn't the norm even for most Catholics who like the pre-Vatican II Masses. I guess all that to say, I'm not sure this is a very helpful or enlightening video in general if people are trying to understand the Catholic Church. Feels like it detracts from the authentic conversation of what is means to be a Catholic.
LOL protestants don´t own fundamentalism if any we inherited and I don´t think is a bad thing though. I appreciate fundamentalism so much more than progressivism.
If you’re truly Catholic then you are necessarily “fundamentalist.”
I hope you Austin you will invite in Your UA-cam Channel; Dr. Brant Pitre, Dr. Scott Hahn, Dr. Francis Beckwith, Dr. John Bergsma, Dr. Robert Haddad, Patrick Madrid, Fr. Chris Alar, Dr. Karlo Broussard, Dr. Peter Kreeft
All modernist heretics.
I I’ve left Traditional Catholicism for Orthodoxy ☦️. I interact extensively with Muslims and I’m not isolated or sheltered, but we’re still in a faith background that is true to Christ with traditions that hasn’t innovated.
It’s very mature, intellectual, and faithful to Christ.
How does Mel Gibson’s participation in JRE do any good to “Traditionalism”, let alone to the Catholic faith? I don’t think I’ve ever watched Joe Rogan (nor will I probably) but this thing has been loud enough even for one who has been lazy online lately, like me. So, great timing with this one, Austin.
I believe Kevin (I think I’ve interacted with him - probably disagreeing with his views concerning religion and how they probably psychologize the object of faith to defer to subjective experience) can help people detoxify themselves from some of what they’ve been fed up under the badge of “traditionalism”, a thing that got specially palatable to some of the most ferocious online fellows we see around. I hope it doesn’t sound provocative, but, the way I see it, those postures can be a mixture of Crypto-Protestant (under Catholic/ Orthodox aesthetic and maybe, just maybe, a particular corpus of theology that mostly serves to fit that aesthetic) - to be fair, “Protestant” here meaning the typical American Evangelical mindset that is always ready to defy authority as a blameful tyranny or usurpation against the autonomous individual self -, Neo-Pharisaical and, last but not least, conspiratorial tendencies that happen to serve well - for a myriad of reasons - to a non-irrelevant number of American brothers and sisters, unfortunately, specially teenagers and young adults. Maybe the fixation on plots, schemes and twists, the whole “total politicization of life” and the implicit cult of a “political religion” has something to do with that. I don’t know. Not that we can’t see mad RadTrads in Brazil (even Sedevacantists), but they are as ridiculous, and almost absolutely irrelevant, as it gets; my online interactions in Portuguese/ Spanish and English don’t even compare. I tend to view this phenomenon as something quite strange, honestly.
Have you been to a Novus Whordo “mass?” That’s where you’ll find ridiculousness.
I was an atheist in high school (after a nominal Catholic upbringing), bogged down by many philosophers. I was hooked onto Ayn Rand's objectivism. Loved science. When I became a Christian at University, I was convinced of Young Earth Creationism. At current, my opinion on Young Earth Creationism is that I don't believe anything concerning it that wouldn't equally make me appear absurd in the eyes of modern science than does anyone who believes humanity came from a single parental pair - Adam and Eve. Interestingly enough, theistic evolutionists and those accepting of an old humanity often want to maintain the real existence of Adam and Eve, while trying to conform to modern science in other respects. They do this because they feel like they have the opportunity. However, it is not coherent. And so, I would actually hold that atheistic evolutionists actually capture Genesis better than most Christians today.
Hey Erick, I am a big fan of your work, and I am honored that you took time to watch this episode! Your view that atheistic evolution captures Genesis better than most Christians today is simultaneously very appealing to me (as someone who thinks that mainstream science is correct on evolution) and also very foreign to me. I cannot imagine anyone expressing that view from my FSSP chapel. What exactly do you mean by that? Is it something along the lines of "the spirit of Genesis" vs the historicity or something like that?
@@Nontradicathseems to me like he’s saying Genesis supports YEC, so an atheist saying “I don’t believe Genesis, and for that matter, Catholicism, because I believe in evolution” is more consistent than a Catholic who holds to evolution and believes Genesis is true (as they’re required to). Basically he thinks YEC is the only view consistent with Genesis, so if YEC is false the atheist is right and consistent, but if it’s right, the Catholic evolutionist is wrong and inconsistent
His comment was a bit confusing to me as well but I think that’s what he’s saying. Erik is free to correct me.
It’s modernist doublespeak.
Kevin's work is invaluable, specifically his short film "Girls Are Not To Be Trusted"
AYO KEVIN HITTING THE BIG TIME
One of the reasons against women's sufferage is that it divides families. The founding fathers didn't want a mobocracy. Property owning males being the only ones allowed to vote essentially gave each family unit a vote. Husbands were heads of household which is biblical. It wasn't backwards except for excluding based on race. The majority of married women were actually opposed to sufferage. It was appropriate then that the values of the citizens were reflected in their government. Similarly we live in a different egalitarian society now and the voter base reflects that. It doesn't mean that erasing the family unit didn't leave a problem though. Personally I think owning property or having children which both are stakes in society would be good prerequisites for voting.
Precisely, you nailed it. A system where voting was only open to family units would eliminate much of the present cultural insanity and create needed incentives to marry and form families.
@@SinkingStarshipWhat would Jesus say? Blessed are the poor? Beware of the mammon? Give everything to the poor and follow me?
Jesus himself would not be allowed to vote in your world! Neither Paul, neither barren women or men and their spouses, neither nuns or monks or priests... What an absurd idea!
@@hei7586It would be inappropriate in that time period. Correct. It's not a one size fits all solution. I'm saying in a pluralistic society with vast wealth inequality and weakening cultural bonds it makes sense.
This comments section remind me a lot of what I experienced in the disability community. I have two kids with intellectual disabilities, and when I was deep into the “disability community,” there were people who were held up as the “example” of what it was like, and acted like this is what it was like for ALL people within that community. Guess what? It’s not. People are individuals with individual experiences. So while it’s great to have different voices out there, keep in mind, no one speaks for ALL of a community.
Those extreme traditionalist communities were my last big stumbling block before converting. I wondered if I could really be in one church with those. It is still very taxing to my patience. And I see a big conflict between keeping church unity and discouraging false or strange teaching.
What “strange” teachings?
Kevin, did you use Anne W Carroll’s books? I remember using those at the FSSP school that I went to and even at 8 years old thinking they felt outdated and a weird choice to be using for history class.
Yes!! We absolutely used "Christ the King, Lord of History" and "Christ and the Americas" as our history text books.
@ Wow no way! So funny. I remember feeling like I was in a time capsule.
I resonate with so much of your story. FSSP parish with the school that was also my social circle, many cousins who also went, going to a public college and getting a culture shock, etc. I’ve been there and done that. I’m sorry for the bad experience you had; I’ve also seen the shunning and disconnecting firsthand. If parents want their kids to come back to the faith, that’s a surefire way to make sure that doesn’t happen.
Btw I’m the co-founder of Trad Recovery, I’d love to sit down and have a chat with you sometime!
@@andym5995 ooooh I've been meaning to reach out to you guys ever since I first heard about you!! Yes, let's talk!!
@@Nontradicath Awesome! It seems like YT doesn’t like me putting my email address in comments but our email is on the contact page of our website. Shoot me a message and I’d be happy to talk!
@andym5995 email sent! Mine is also on my about page too but you should have mine since I shot you an email already.... Let me know if it doesn't come through - thanks!
Interesting conversation. I'm not Catholic, and especially not a Trad Catholic. Nor am I a fundamentalist, isolationist Evangelical. I find it fascinating that Kevin spent much of the show criticizing his upbringing as a traditional Catholic, yet at the end said everyone in this family grew up to be good adults. I'm trying to make sense of the disconnect here.
He gloats about being a revolutionary in regards to his relationship with his girl-friend. He gloats about his Trad upbringing. He is a narcissist.
@@jamesMartinelli-x2t I married my girlfriend when we were both 22, specifically to avoid living in sin. What do you think is so revolutionary about that? Are you a modernist who thinks it is revolutionary to **not** live together before marriage? Or have I misunderstood you?
@ You asked your girl-friend to marry you in order to please your grandparents. Is this not what you conveyed?
@@jamesMartinelli-x2t it is. What's so revolutionary about that?
He ripped that bandaid off with his parents 😖 cool guy, great interview!
This all made me want to go to Latin Mass....
These comments…… go Lutherans!
If the comments here represent the "average Catholic" ... then that is a worrying sign! Luckily, I know that is not the case! The average Catholic is good person who loves God and loves his neighbor.
Kevin - one question - ive seen you make several comments that you pray (I think ive seen these). Is this earnest? Do you pray as an agnostic?
Do you think agnostics can’t pray?
@@thatgirlray2765I didn’t when I was agnostic. It seemed to make things worse if I did. James 1:6-8. It makes all the difference knowing you need God.
@ Joe Schmid has a really good argument, in my view, that an agnostic must pray agnostic prayers. Reason being that being agnostic is claiming you don’t know, and there’s an equal or almost equal shot of a god or gods existing or not. Not praying would be an expression of pure disbelief, while praying causes no problem if atheism is true, it’s just a few seconds wasted, while if god does exist and if he was good and could hear you, you would have everything to gain. But I would only tweak it to be if you’re agnostic about an omnibenevolent god.
Personally I’m atheist to an omnibenevolent god, but I’m agnostic still to a deist, evil, or some god or gods well beyond us. I do pray agnostic prayers sometimes, although due to my religious trauma from traditionalism, it’s a trigger for my OCD and panic attacks.
I am not sure what "earnest" might entail. I will explain and let you judge whether or not this counts as earnest - I do pray as an agnostic. I think about it like a flare that I shoot off from a desert island. I don't see any boats or planes around, but I shoot the flare off anyway, in case anyone else is around. So, is that earnest? I'm not sure.
@@thatgirlray2765I mean... why would they
Pretty disappointing segment. . I think I need to go back and count how many times the word “reactionary “ was used. Talk about overkill
"Trad Catholicism" is already starting to become its own denomination. Sedevacantism in my opinion already falls under the category of being protestant.
The great majority of trads are not sede vacantists
Uncharitable take but do you
Doesn’t the Novus Whordo Church accept Protestant heretics as their “brothers in Christ?”
All truth is God's truth, but human reasoning is weak. The fall hits hard and our reason can fail. A lot of times kids who weren't properly formed start getting objections that they can't handle. Also, people like the traditional aesthetics and ceremonies, but won't do the actual work of praying, fasting, and almsgiving. These last two things make their faith weak and superficial. The only reason traditionalism has to be called that is because the times are so degenerate that we have to return to something that was good. Modern times are evil. God and his traditions are the stability we need in tumultuous times
Amen!
I have a video that might interest you, called "Traditional Catholics wear Rose Tinted Glasses: An empirical rebuttal to Michael Knowles". In it, I challenge the idea that these modern times are uniquely evil. For instance, globally, violent crime is at an all time low in all of recorded history.
@@Nontradicathehh I’ve read Pinkerton’s book with similar claims. They’re really shifting goal posts and narrowing what is important to say things are actually improving. That being said, if your keyword is “uniquely”, you could be right there and all I know is it’s unique for me.
Hey Kevin! I'm getting Purdue vibes from you. Or did you attend another STEM school in the midwest?
I actually grew up in New Jersey, so I got my BS in Chemical Engineering from the New Jersey Institute of Technology. Not as prestigious as Purdue! But it's served me well.
Of boy! You've just interviewed a refugee from the “trad bubble.” He asserts that trads are both reactionary and isolationist, and, while this is true for inhabitants of the bubble, it isn't universal among trads. Certainly, traditionalism is reactionary (which I mean in the philosophical sense as a disposition opposing modernism, revolution, progressivism and secularism), but what Kevin is describing is the sociology of a particular set of trads who endured official persecution by the powers-that-be following Vatican II (something recurring under the current pope). These conditions created a siege mentality where they felt the need to isolate themselves, and, as such, it was REACTIVE, not actively reactionary. I've known lots of refugees from the Catholic bubble, but in my experience, at a traditional parish, the cool people (artists, authors, musicians, legal scholars, journalists, theologians, old punk rockers like me, etc.) tend to avoid the ideologically possessed “benedict option” isolationists. The mainstreaming of “traditional” Catholicism (which used to be called simply Catholic before Vatican II) brought in a lot of new blood that, to a healthy degree, is breaking the stranglehold that these people think they have on the traditional mode of life.
Grouping the SSPX, FSSP and ICRSS (the Institute of Christ the King, i.e., the St John Cantius folk) is absurd. For one, ICRSS celebrate the Novus Ordo. The SSPX are more disposed to the bubble mentality. And I can't think of any Catholic in a state of grace who would respond to their child apostatizing with the threat of murder, rather than with prayers, fasting and penance: these are nut jobs! Are there dysfunctional lost souls in traditional parishes who are seemingly from the cookie cutter caricature factory described here? Yes, and they are poor unfortunate souls, but shaking tambourines in yoga pants by women at a Novus Ordo in the sanctuary breeds healthy reactionary Catholics that flee the vulgar and mundane “worship” there. The traditional bubble people can be hostile to those they deem insufficiently “trad,” but such aberrations can be cured by an Evangelical zeal for the salvation of souls and old fashioned charity towards those who wish to grow in grace with the help of the sacraments.
Diocesan Latin Masses kind of suck. It's usually staffed by some gay heretic priest that's imposed by a bad bishop, and usually in an ugly church not purposefully built for the old Mass. You won't get a homeschool coöperative there as one would at an FSSP parish, some of which are REALLY good, some are bad as in Kevin’s experience. I miss my FSSP parish where we had a good library, cool people, a coöperative vegetable garden (which helped the poor among us), and a lively coffee hour after Mass where everything from politics to literature could be politely discussed. I miss the pot luck with savory food cooked by little old ladies.
If idolaters on college campuses discussion evolution (which lacks a transitional fossil record and uses functional morphology to cobble together a blatantly ideological construct) is someone's idea of a good enriching time, then, have fun with that, but don't expect anything but skepticism from authentic traditionalism; mean trad bubble types might declare a shunning jihad on you, but one must learn to either laugh or cry at their narrowness and misery.
Firstly, my parents are not "nut jobs", and I will not stand for anyone bad mouthing them like that. They are deeply wounded people, who are convinced that I will burn in hell for eternity - so of course they reacted strongly! I would react the exact same way if I thought that my child was at serious risk of eternal torture! We all would!
Secondly, I am not familiar with the ICRSS (the Institute of Christ the King, as you called it). I was talking about the ICKSP, the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest. The ICKSP does offer the TLM.
@Nontradicath - you intimated almost to the point of being explicit that you were threatened with murder. That's not balanced behavior if true. If you were so threatened, that's a crime. Not since the days of Roman paganism has it been acceptable for a father to exercise or express the right of a paterfamilias to put to death his child. If you were being irresponsibility hyperbolic in your rhetoric, you painted your parents as nut jobs, albeit you certainly presented them as cultists exhibiting cult-like behavior which I found convincing and accurate; furthermore, you painted all trads as fringe nut jobs.
Institutum Christi Regis Summi Sacerdotis (ICRSS) is the Latin abbreviation of the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest (ISKSP), their formal name.
@@noahsolomon726 What someone says in order to try to save their child from hell does not make someone a nut job. I cannot believe that I am defending my own family to you haha, this is nuts!
I am only 20 minutes in, and I wonder if his grandparents ever got permission from the bishop to have mass said at their church. Doing so is so against catholic doctrine its insane. Reading Ignatius on submission to the bishop should squash that tendency, but somehow some trads feel its super based to disobey Ignatius....😬. I came in to the church through the FSSP, but now go a NO parish for other reasons. The FSSP, having their roots in the SSPX are going to have a hard time divesting themselves from that schismatic mindset that breeds isolation, and I hope they can do better at teaching that their parishioners. I have a soft spot for them, but when my priest gave a super short homily on easter vigil that was about how we shouldn't change the liturgy I knew it was time to leave soon.
That church is staffed by the FSSP. There may have been a time when it was unclear.
Should the Icksp be lumped in with the FSSP/SSPX? ICKSP started as a mission society whereas the others have their roots in opposition to vatican 2.
Only halfway through, but this story reads like a tragedy so far.
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it”.
Modernists don’t like that kind of talk.
Gregorian Chant? It's a name because of an angel's message to Pope Gregory. He told the pope that our inherited chant derives from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. It could be called simply Old Hebrew Temple Chant or Jerusalem Chant.
'If your brother will not listen to two of you...' Shunning is "biblical" - Matthew 18: 15 - 17. Not taking to Protestants and other heretics is 'biblical' - Romans 16: 17 and 18.
25:04 Christendom College
THANK YOU. I can't believe I forgot the name of Christendom College, much appreciates!
@@NontradicathYou’re welcome. It’s understandable, we all have our moments. I appreciate your openness and honesty with your experience.
This didn't seem to really address FSSP or SSPX issues as much as being incredibly isolated. While interesting, this sounds a bit more like a person who went hat tip fedora Reddit liberal / atheist but didn't have solid criticisms of Trads in general. More his family specifically
And of course they were “reactionary “ ;)
I have videos on my channel where I actually propose arguments for why the claims of Catholicism are false, but that was not the purpose of this conversation here.
@@Nontradicath Id be interested to hear those. Is there a particular one you'd recommend checking out first? I think the format did focus on personal story which can convey things differently for sure
I was skimming through but never saw where he explained why when he left FSSP, he didn’t stay in the Catholic Church. And then find a liberal, centrist or traditional / conservative parish . Kind of leads to other questions .
That is a whole other question, and its one that we did not get into in this episode. That wasn't the goal of this conversation, though I am an open book!
@@Nontradicath fair enough. But some might say : “If he doesn’t even accept vanilla Catholicism, maybe I need to take his characterization of Traditional Catholicism with a grain of salt”. Not saying I do
Ok soon as you said “you won’t be part of the family anymore”
This is categorically out of order / insane/ cult like. This is definitely not how most traditional Catholics are here in the UK. If they are then it’s insane. Puritanism is not the way forward.
I've heard that Traditionalism in Europe is very very different than Traditionalism in the United States. The more I hear from people like you, the more I think that this is true.
Isn’t this pretty typical in Christianity historically? Although, our environment is much different now.
Traditional Catholicism often leads to a strict legalism, which is similar to the jansenists or the pelagians. I believe it is what Pope Francis refers to as rigidity.
I believe there is a freedom from the prescriptions, not the commandments or the law, but the prescriptions of how we ought to practice our faith.
For example the Church teaches we restore justification through confession.
However as a faithful Catholic myself, we have to move from this radical tradition, and into relationship with Christ, Christ himself says he desires “mercy and not sacrifice”.
God is a loving Father and faith in Christ, for me specifically the embodiment of him in the Eucharist is what saves. Christ saves. Gods gracious gift of faith is what allows us to receive him, no matter our state. Clean or unclean.
Mortal sin and venial sins are real, but Christ comes also to remove our guilt and shame, thus the power of sin is diminished.
The magisterium is perfect, but as St. Paul says we move from from breast milk to solid food in the faith.
I do not claim I have a deeper understanding, only that Christ saves, and he will reveal to little one’s for those who seek him. I only hope I’m one of his sheep.
Austin, I pray you continue to persevere in your quest for Truth. The Catholic Church is true, and founded by Christ, its rigours, intellect and seeming legalism all have a purpose, and purpose of the law is always fulfilled in Christ, and in our own lives.
I will continue praying for you 🙏 God Bless
This should be interesting ;)
The Second Vatican Council is an ecumenical council of the Church. Anyone who rejects it is not really a Catholic but a schismatic at best. It is not "traditional" Catholic at all; it is more similar to Orthodox or Protestants in its relation to the Church if not in theology. Fundamentalism in any religion is never actually a return to the true form of the religion but rather a modern attempt to reclaim something that was not ever there and can lead down dangerous paths.
Absurd demonic nonsense. Vatican II was an attack on the Holy Catholic Church by enemies inside the Church. Anyone that accepts and promotes the heretical Vatican Council II is doing the work of the devil.
Women voting? Evolution? And complaining about books from 1950 using out of date terminology? The last complaint is anachronistic. The second has been debunked by many - try Dr. E. Michael Jones. The first - well I'll let Pope Pius X respond: "women in government is sinful". My question is - with your proposition of debunking myths it appears that you want the approval of 'enlightened' modern personages?
The idea that no women should be able to vote but all men should be able to vote is weird. Democracy is a very flawed means of governance, limiting the voting block to males doesn’t somehow get around this.
I’ve been following your exploration of the traditions of Christianity that are outside of your prior experience and have generally been very impressed but this show is very unfortunate. The young man you interview is heavily loaded and deeply wounded by his personal experience but I also suspect he’s got some deep problems because of it, exacerbated by a huge ego. But these call into question his attitudes and statements. There is no doubt some desire for vengeance on those who hurt him, mostly by his parents. But they do not really represent Catholicism. It would have been helpful to have defined what he meant by “traditional Catholicism” when you began because The groups he speaks about are actually in a form of schism from the rest of us as they have refused to recognize developments of the post-Vatican II period. Genuine Traditional Catholics abound in the Catholic church. Many Latin Masses are available in most dioceses, with the approval of the bishop and of Rome. Even novus ordo Masses that are faithful to the rubrics can also be called traditional. All of those should not be tarred with the brush of the schismists. Without definition it’s easy to get confused.
There was a family who were in my middle of the road Catholic parish in New York City for a short time. Most of us thought they were very strange. They never fit in and it wasn’t a huge surprise when they moved some place in Ohio (from New York) to join a parish run by one of those groups. We were relieved but I felt very sorry for their little girl and baby son who would now be around the same age as he is. I sincerely hope that they have not turned out to be as sad and twisted as this young man. He is definitely a negative nellie and actually quite vicious about it. I will pray that he finds healing for his deeply wounded soul and return to the regular Catholic church.
Hello Margaret, thank you so much for the thoughtful post. I doubt that I can persuade you with a single comment, but I do love my parents. They've apologized, too! Also, the FSSP is not in schism. The FSSP is fully in line with Rome. Anyway, I would love to talk to you over the phone sometime. You seem like a really thoughtful person and I think that you have valuable insight.
@ Thank you for the invitation, but I must decline. For one thing, I am 77 years old and don’t have the time or energy to engage with you about this. I do have many years of lived experience, however, having grown up in the pre-Vatican II church, gone through ALL the changes of the last 60 years and never wavered in my love for Christ and his church. The experience you had is very far outside of true Catholicism. It seems more in tune with Anabaptists like the Amish or with the Hasidic Jews. Therefore, it isn’t what I would call traditional. It’s an unhealthy aberration. I’m sorry it produced such anger and hate in you, but I cannot engage with that other than to pray for you. I work in an entirely different way to represent the true tradition to the world, through my blog about the history of art. I invite you to check it out at imaginemdei.blogspot.com. You might find it helpful. God guide you into peace and lead your wounded soul back to the true church. Tradition is not your enemy, a warped kind of misguided traditionalism is, but that is not the church.
This guy abandoned the faith so that he could sin, why would you interview someone like that
I literally got married to avoid sinning. My engagement was only 3 months long because my job told me they were moving me 700 miles away and I didn't want to "live in sin" with my girlfriend, so, I made her my wife. What exactly did you mean when you said that I "abandoned the faith" just so that I could go sin? I am probably misunderstanding you.
@@Nontradicath Aren't you an atheist materialist now who sees nothing wrong with contraception or similar things?
@@piface3016 I'm not an atheist, nor am I a materialist, I'm agnostic on both fronts. And while it's true that I am not convinced that contraception is bad, my wife and I actually pretty much follow Church teaching on the marital act. But we're just naturally infertile, so, it's easy for us to follow Church teaching on this one haha, and we don't do so on purpose.
@@piface3016 I am saddened that this guy lost his faith and I hope he returns to the Catholic church as some stage... But.. bro like really? That was a really unhelpful comment.
It saddens me that he has these views of traditional Catholics. Those who attend FSSP Masses for instance aren't trying to hide from the world. I was raised in what I consider a traditional Catholic home. We attend Novus Ordo Masses because there was nothing else. We went to Catholic school through 8th grade. We were never "sheltered" from society. Yes, High School was a big step as it was for everyone (I mean even those who were in a higher grade as the school building was brand new and we were all lost). We assimilated well we went to ball games, pep rallies, club meetings, etc.and never lost our faith. What many traditional Catholics (and non-Catholics) are afraid of is that they don't want their children "indoctrinated". They want them to learn the "three 'Rs"" and not transgenderism, CRT etc. They want to be the ones to teach their children morality and ethics.
Yes. His experience is just that. His experience and it shouldn’t be taken as a template to excoriate all trads
It is 100% the case that my experience is not anyone else's experience except my own. That being said, I don't call the way that you grew up "Traditional", and so, when I am talking about being isolated, I am specifically excluding people who grew up in the Novus Ordo from that description.
@@Nontradicath Your experience sounds more Amish than Catholic. By traditional I mean a home where we attended Mass each Sunday and Holy Days of Obligation, as well as Ash Wednesday and Holy Week. In my part of the country Catholics were a distinct minority, so we had to have interaction with people of other faiths (especially Southern Baptist). We didn't let that dilute our faith though. I attended a (supposedly) Catholic college but most of the students were protestant.
I consider myself a traditional Catholic because I prefer many of the old ways. I find many of the implementations of Vatican II to be harmful to the Church. I find many of the old ways to be more reverent and meaningful. My wife (who converted to Catholicism before I met her) and I keep the tradition of saying prayers together each evening (something I highly recommend for all married couples). Your experience may be your own, but you make it sound like it's the way with all traditionalists and it's not..
@ I'm not sure if you watched the full episode, but I also make the Amish comparison. I stop short of saying that we are fully Amish, since we did adopt technology eventually, but we typically did adopt technology late. I also firmly agree with you that not all Trads had an experience like mine. This is what I said in that first comment! I always make a point of saying that "Kevin is not everyone".
His critiques were very liberal in their substance.
Taylor Marshall is toxic as is john Henry weston
Womens suffrage was a bad idea. Was a bunch of occultists who started it. Dyer did a good video on it. Occultic roots of feminism.
This guy is intolerable. All he does is whine about Catholicism. Get over yourself.
I'll keep you in my prayers, brother, and if I may be so bold to ask, please remember me in yours
We need more traditionalism. No Pope like John Paul 2 should be kissing the Quran or praying in a mosque. If you know Muslims teach everyone who believe Jesus is the son of god will go to hell then why would you kiss a book that has those words? Even vatican 2 teaches Muslims and Catholics worship the same god. That is logically impossible. We need more traditionalism. The tradition is to follow Jesus and we need that so badly. Jesus is the son of god. Jesus is the messiah. Jesus did die for that. Jews and Muslims don’t believe that. So Popes need to stop kissing imams. Stop praying in synagogues. And stop going to mosque.
@@kennynoNope I'm with you on the kissing the Quran. I would never do that, myself. I am keen to get your thoughts after you've watched the full video, because you and I might not be as far apart as you might think.
@ may I ask you what your religious position is?
@@kennynoNope Of course, I am an open book! I just tell people I am agnostic on the existence of God and that I grew up Catholic but I do not practice anymore. If I tell people I am ex-Catholic, sometimes they say "Once Catholic always Catholic!", and that is true to some extent (indelible mark on my soul and all that). But then if I call myself a "Catholic Agnostic", people get upset, and understandably so, because a Catholic who doesn't even claim to be a Theist is a very bad Catholic, if Catholic at all. So, yeah, long winded answer and I am sorry for all the words, but I say all this to try to be as up-front and clear as possible.
Sometimes I get weird dom/sub vibes from the RCC particularly their trad sects
Very disgusting thing to say and to project onto people who likely want nothing to do with a vile subculture like that. You really, really, really need to interrogate what makes you feel this way and MORE importantly, what drives you to verbalize these kinds of things.
Very few people even know what that is in these communities dude. You need help.
I don’t know that I would phrase it that way, but there is a Catholic public figure who talked about the masculinity of kneeling to receive the body of our Lord on your mouth in an odd way that made me a bit uncomfortable.
This guy is just bitter. He should appreciate what his parents gave him instead of acting out. This was just a therapy session. Austin, if you're going to have this guy on to dunk on trad Caths then you need to do one on the eastern orthodox. They're probably more radical than the trad Caths.
Lol
That’s not very charitable. Kevin is very respectful to people who are practicing Catholics/Christians. This can be known from the barest glance at his channel. He is not whatever new atheist caricature you might have in your head.
Have you heard of the book Extreme Ownership? Some trad catholics need to learn lessons from it.
@@nzr4699Jocko Willinck!
Thanks for proving his point
Moral of the story, don't let your kids attend public school, especially university....
Dr. John Senior correctly states that we should not listen to Gregorian Chant for the "vibes" or to "chill" it should always be in prayer.
The Benedictines that his movement founded depend on people buying it for whatever purpose.
@@TheRomanOrthodox St. Benedict founded the Benedictines. And the men who went through Dr. Senior's program who then became Monks depend on their own hard manual labor, as well as donations that many faithful Catholics give them. To the extent that a very small portion of their income is based on sales of CD's of them chanting, I'm sure their hope is that those who purchase are using it in prayer, not for the "chill vibes"
@jacobrodriguez7771 I am perfectly aware of the history. I am just saying that the monks who came through his program also sell Gregorian Chant CDs. I am sure they know their CDs are used for both easy listening and prayer. I might agree with you in principle, but trying to gatekeep Gregorian Chant is obsessive in the extreme. Settle down. The man can listen to Gregorian Chant if he wants to.
@@TheRomanOrthodox He can but should he? He should repent and come back to the Church.
"Reactionary" is really just a slur against traditionalist, whether it be in regards to politics or religion. Everything that exists is in part a reaction to something else. Do you really not understand that modern mainline evangelical protestant Christianity developed in large part as a reaction to our scientific materialist secular culture? Or that that scientific materialist secular culture developed as a reaction to the so called enlightenment and the industrial/technological revolution? Everything is a reaction to everything else. It is really a meaningless term.
It was really used at overkill rates in his segment
FSSP = Women can't vote = Me attend FSSP this Sunday
Such a child 🤦♀️
@@thatgirlray2765 Jesus said to be like the little children so I'll take that as a compliment.