Two of the most legendary signs in all of railroading stood on the Mikwaukee Road Chicago-Milwaukee line, a few miles in advance of Rondout Interlocking, one on the northbound main, and one on the southbound. They said: SLOW TO 90 MPH
Back in the 1970s, I saw a very-weathered sign at a rural road crossing that stated: Caution! Trains traveling at speeds exceeding 100 mph. That sign was at the double-track Milwaukee Road main line near New Lisbon.
There's one of those signs at the Milwaukee Road Historical Association Museum at the Illinois Railway Museum. The one here comes from the Ft McCoy area.
A little clarification at the end-the A-class were generally off of the Twin Cities run by WWII, though they did continue to serve as understudies/backups in case something happened with the regular power. The initial generation of diesel locomotives (as purchased by the Milwaukee Road, and not including railcars/trainsets) was actually not as fast as the steam locomotives, topping out at 108-110 mph. However, they had superior acceleration, which canceled out the higher top speed of the steam engines. The Hiawatha was renowned for its smooth ride, and the Milwaukee had a superbly straight alignment, but the smooth ride had nothing to do with the track. In fact, the Milwaukee was infamous for its poor track quality. The reason the Hiawatha rode so smoothly was down to the fact that the Milwaukee developed truly superb suspension for its coaches in order to compensate for the poor track! When you rode on Milwaukee tracks in passenger cars that were NOT from the Milwaukee Road, it could be something of an Experience! And not one that was particularly conducive to a good appetite!
Greetings from Portage, Wisconsin! There is still a bustling train yard here. I worked a few years for a shuttle service (PTI) that moved train Engineers and Conductors from station site to train, or reverse depending on the situation, so I saw a lot of the systems used by CP (Canadian Pacific), BNSF, CSX, Norfolk Southern, and Union Pacific railroads. But Portage is going strong with regular Amtrack service, a major container train that stops through every afternoon for crew change, and 24/7/365 operations in the yard rerouting train cars. Thanks for the mention! Cheers!
I live in Portage, WI and have heard many stories about the Hiawathas and their high speeds on the long straightaways between Portage and Sparta. Well researched and put together as always 👍 The Hiawatha name still lives on as an Amtrak commuter service between Chicago and Milwaukee
Highest speed from a trusted source, that was ever shared directly with me was 126mph. Looking at the condition of the roadbed in the 70s, it seemed incredible to me!
This one is right down my wheelhouse, Rory! Grew up along these tracks in Edgebrook and later Glenview. The right of way was my playground. My dad commuted on the Milwaukee Road. My train set was Milwaukee Road. And many times My dad took me aboard the Hiawatha to Wisconsin Dells (possibley shown at 12:42). I had to wear a jacket and tie even when I was still in short pants, lol. What beautiful interiors. And to sit upstairs in the Superdome, or bask in the boozey cigar lounge in the Beaver Tail was to me, an unforgetable coming of age... Great episode! Thank you so much!
A coat & tie with short pants - a much simpler time. I lived along the NYC Water Level Route in those days with our trips from upstate NY to the city behind a Hudson. Thank you for the smile.
An excellent video on my favorite railroad. I rode behind the Class A on the Midwest Hiawatha in WWII. The CNW E-6 could not be used on their Twin Cities route due to weight restriction on bridges.
Wow, Thanks for this gem! I live in the Twin Cities, and always liked the very attractive Hiawatha trains. I learned a lot. The beautiful old depot is still here.
Ah, the Milwaukee Road, distinct enough to be legendary despite being dogged by financial problems throughout much of their existence. Their rise and fall is a story in and of itself, including a huge electrification project years before the PRR's, rugged mountain construction, these As and F7s, the Little Joes, and commuter programs in Chicago that eventually led to RTA and Metra, which continues to this day. It's also great to see more footage of the old Zephyrs in action. One of the original Pioneer sets is sitting on display in Chicago. I personally live along the line it took between there and Zephyr, some distance outside Chicago. Burlington and its successors definitely had an easier time of it financially than the Milwaukee!
Small correction-the six car Zephyrs replaced the three-car sets, not supplemented them. Each set made one round trip per day, thereby providing two round trips total. Even this was not enough, so the sets were lengthened with additional cars over the next several years. The three-car sets were standing-room only, so Burlington quickly realized that putting them on the Twin Cities route was a BAD idea.
The greatest irony of Milwaukee railroad, that they’ve electrified mountain pass segments about a year before oil crisis started. Should they opted to patch the aging poles and catenary instead, they would likely rake in quite a profit next year…
You surely meant they DE-electrified before the oil crisis. The tragedy of US railroading comes down to the financing difficulty private railroads face with long-term infrastructure projects relative to government-funded ones. The Milewaukee Pacific electrification is a good example. It was revolutionary by US standards, but already had its problems at the start. It was a solution to a problem resulting from cost-savings elsewhere: no long tunnels like in the Alps, so steep inclines instead. Then, it was done on the cheap: with wooden poles unable to keep alignment, and not throughout but only on the three mountain sections. The last was part of the reason it was scrapped: to run a train on the Pacific Extension, the locos had to be changed six times, which is bad for economics. Again, the Milwaukee had no hope for financing to complete the electrification. As a contrast, forget Europe or Japan or China, just look at India today. Back in 2017, when their broad-gauge network was 40% electrified, they set a target of 100% electrification by 2023, or in a little over six years. They are now set to achieve that just one year later; at the start of this year, they were at almost 94% (with Covid being the main reason for the delay).
The BIGGEST problem that the MILW ROAD had was piss--poor management, that did not want to be in the RR business any more. Read MilwRoad-- WHAT REALLY HAPPENED!
@@Daneelro At the end of the route for the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension, it was the most profitable line. The judge who took over the latest Milwaukee Road bankruptcy said he did not have all the facts presented in the latest bankruptcy filing. The judge himself, after the end of the bankruptcy, said that he had never seen such an incompetent administration in the railway operations. The people who ran the company were very adamant that Milwaukee Road merge with other competitors.
@@Joe-d7m6kYup!!! I love that article! One of my favorite alternate history dreams I've had lately would've been The Milwaukee Road and the New York Central merging before Penn Central so I could have Alfred E. Perlman in charge of the Milwaukee Road.
@@baassbooster Well the key term is WAS their most profitable. What really doomed the Pacific Extension was a combination of cost overruns and the Burlington Northern merger of 1970... The Electrification, while useful for its time in the days of steam, by the time of the 1980s the Diesel Electric had caught up to the Electrics. The Milwaukee Road maintained the two sections of Electric Operations before they decided to cut it down to one because the section over St. Paul Pass was the steepest section on the entire railroad with a grade that was running close to 3 percent. Initially, this Electric Operation was able to sustain itself with a consistent flow of Lumber Goods that were coming out of Pacific Northwest markets, but then in 1970 that all changed. The Burlington Northern stripped away the Milwaukee Roads market share in the Seattle-Tacoma area, and every so slowly customers began moving away from the Milwaukee Road. At one point 56 percent of all goods flowing out of the Pacific Northwest were going out on Milwaukee Road trains, by 1974 (The year Electric Operations were discontinued), that had dropped so much to a point that Milwaukee was able to maintain things such as adequate track structure, bridge maintenance, and most importantly paying for the cost of running the electric operations. The Milwaukee Road was so adamant on a merger partner in the 1970s because without an equal share to equal the size of Burlington Northern, they wouldn't be able to compete with such a large mega railroad. Several options were on the table, including the Chicago & Northwestern and the Rock Island. However not only did the Milwaukee turn down the Chicago & Northwestern (Which probably could've saved them for a little while longer) due to the C&NW being in the same financial situation, but the Rock Island was a bottomless financial moneypit by the time of the 1970s and had already got itself into a long fight with ICC to try and merge with once a Milwaukee Road partner, Union Pacific. Even if all these issues could've been avoided, the Electric Operation was gonna go anyway. If Burlington Northern got ahold of the Milwaukee Road, they would've abandoned the Pacific Extension in favor of forwarding it to other routes. If the Milwaukee Road merged with another railroad, it would've only prolonged their demise by a little bit longer. The only true way of saving the Electric Operation in the Bitterroot Mountains would be to A) Prevent Burlington Northern from forming, and B) Have Montana be in a much better economic state than it was in the 1970s. Its sad this to be the case considering the Burlington Northern was quite influential in the world of American Railroading and made several pioneering achievements. But also Milwaukee had such a unique operation that nearly beat everyone out in the competition for the Pacific Northwest if it wasn't for cost overruns and two economic recessions that ultimately destroyed it.
..the Hiawatha's were amazing, Particularly the F7s. I did ride the diesel powered ones between Milwaukee and Chicago as well as Milwaukee tp :LaCrosse and the Twin Cities which they still were fast and comfortable. Particularly loved riding in the Superdome and the Skytop Lounge which were Iconic. My last trip on a Milwaukee Road Hiawatha was in the Summer of 1970 to LaCrosse before Amtrak took over passenger rail service. Today Amtrak's Empire Builder crawls along the corridor at an average speed of 54 MPH taking over 9 hours (and then some due to freight operations) between the two endpoints
4:259:37 This Milwaukee Class A's Express Steam Locomotives In The United States Of America Looks Amazing. Excellent. Thanks Mate. PS It's A Bit Like LNER Gresley A4 Streamlined Pacific Steam Locomotive Mallard From The National Railway Museum In York In Yorkshire In The UK. Terrific. X❤
Hiawatha was a beautiful train , I rode that train from Seattle to Spokane , Washington State , I was 5 and I remember the tunnel , and the high bridge over the Columbia River ... Big brother and Mama were with me , what a lovely time , that rear car with all of that glass , and the bubble top 2 tier passenger car, simply magical. ♥ in 1965 .. this
I grow up in Beloit a city that honors Milwaukee Road. I now live in Minneapolis and only a few miles from the depots which received these trains and cars. The thing is the history is almost all but lost if not for enthusiasts and content creators like you. Check out archival aerial images to see how busy Minneapolis once was with rail traffic. Specifically around Hiawatha avenue.
01:25 How nice to see lots of freight wagons with no graffiti on them. 21st century railway videos invariably show many freight cars with unsightly graffiti on them.
Consider what is the greater contribution, a one time, staged stunt of speed that lasted a few minutes experienced by maybe a couple hundred people, or the fact that by 1940, millions of everyday working class Americans had personally traveled at over 112 MPH, often while sipping coffee or reading the newspaper…. Speed Record attempts are often made by the insecure. Like the New York Central strapping jet engines on an RDC! The Confident don’t waste their time with Record attempts. They just quietly deliver speed to the masses by making it an everyday practice by publishing the fastest daily steam timetable in the world.
Actually, the Black Beetle had a real, serious, reason for the tests. They wanted to see if it was possible to run very high speed trains on existing track. What was the effect of speed on track as compared to weight? etc. etc. So, yes. There WAS a good purpose for the whole Jets-on-a-Budd thing. it was just far too late in the day financially speaking-the NYC was already going down, the infamous PC merger was on the horizon, and management was pessimistic about passenger trains. Once the merger happened, the Pennsylvania already had its own high speed efforts-the Metroliner-so the results of the Black Beetle program were pretty much rendered redundant.
The Non-stop LNER service from London to Edinburgh was completed in 6 hours regularly by an A4 - 393 miles in 360 minutes. Hardly 40mph. The non-stop was A4 hauled until the end in the early 1960s from its re-introduction following WWII. The introduction of diesels resulted in stops being included.
My Wisconsin native dad rode the Hiawatha's on a regular basis before the war. He always talked about how smooth the train rode. He had some great stories from that time.
These were my top favourite American passenger steam locomotives, they looked tremendously stylish. Since WW2 passenger trains in the US just have gotten slower and slower, and it's only recently that at least on some routes trains come near these average speeds. Maybe you can do a video about the Belgian type 12 locomotive, also a streamlined Atlantic which took the record for the highest average service speed from the Milwaukee Road in 1939, only for the Milwaukee Road to take the record back in 1940. Has to be noted that the distance ran in Belgium was a lot shorter of course. Would be an interesting comparison as the class A and type 12 were the largest and heaviest Atlantic locomotives on their respective continents.
The slowdown of American trains and decline in service is always blamed on cars, but the reality is that the ICC had been working to gain ever more government control over the private railroads and the wreck in 1946 was just evidence needed that they couldn’t be trusted to run passenger trains faster than 79 mph, despite evidence that it was human error and that the existing signaling system and Operating rules, if followed, would have prevented the incident. The ICC would continue its attack on railroads driving all passenger services and almost half of the freight railroads into government control by the 1970s. Since deregulation, the private railroads have become the most efficient land based networks on the planet and the government run passenger service, even when operating on government owned routes, is among the worst in the developed world.
@@scottwendt9575 If we truly had a Free Market in this country, gasoline would be Ten Bucks a gallon (and there wouldn't be a single drop of ethanol in it!), a plane ticket from NYC-LAX would set you back about $7500, and passenger trains would be running standing room only.
Same, They looked beautiful but unfortunately after World War II ended soldiers who came back home wanted to drive their cars with the growing automobile culture in the 50s so railroads by that time were in serious financial muck, The Milwaukie Road did not save these locomotives for obtaining new diesels via scrap price
I grew up on the main line between Bensenville and Savanna. Too young for steam but remember the E8s pulling passenger cars in the early 60s down to Soo line take over and now CPKC
MILWAUKEE ROAD ran North with 4-6-2 Pacific 152 F3 Streamliner to GREEN BAY, WISCONSIN, AND IRON MOUNTAIN, MICHIGAN, and paint 🎨 Orange 🍊 to match "HIAWATHA", and standby loco to replace Class A during maintenence.
You don't need to put a speed gun on a train to find a maximum speed. If you are familiar with Calculus, you can use the Mean Value Thoerem. So if they weren't captured , you can use the measured point to point distance and time taken , you can use this to prove ( or otherwise) a record speed of the American engines. In general, you can tell that a maximum speed happened, but not where or when on the trip.
The St. Paul, MN Post Office was third largest in the USA. The reason: All mail for the NW states was handled by St. Paul, including Seattle and Portland. Much of the mail headed West on the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Milwaukee Road, and the Soo Line. This may be verified by John Diers' book, "St. Paul Union Depot".
The Hiawatha weren’t the fastest steam locomotives my maximum speed reached, but by average speed on daily runs Both the A and F7 classes averaged over 100 mph daily, while daily runs in Britain rarely achieved such speeds
The locomotive pictured was a New York Central Class J3A, not a Norfolk & Western J as noted.great video nonetheless. Incidentally, I have no doubt that either a Milwaukee F7/PRR S1 or T1/NYC J3A or S1 could have eclipsed 4468. This video has convinced me that it would have done, they were designed for speed. Yet why didn't the yanks make a record attempt? Multiple railroads could have owned it!
4-6-4s were never intended for CNWs premier Chicago- Twin Cities service. Those were class E2 4-6-2 Pacifics, rebuilt for the 400 service into class E2a. They ran in this service Jan. 1935 until replaced by EMD- built E3 diesels, in 1939.
They certainly were, the 400 could top out at 112mph and they needed a locomotive that could hit that consistently. Only the early E units and a modern 4-6-4 could do that in 1938. The Pacifics were just temporary along with the heavy weight coaches.
i believe that a Pennsy T1 Duplex probably ran faster than all other steam on at least one anecdotal occasion published in Trains magazine in late 1991. A T1 had been relegated to the stand-by line for weeks and was covered in dust when it was hostled and put into service on one more run. During it's penultimate station stop, it was behind by 9 minutes. It made them up over the next 40 miles, meaning it had to be running well in excess of 120 mph for a sizeable portion of the portion when it was accelerating and then braking.
I wouldn't be surprised if Rory covers the S and T1s at some point in the future as they've also been claimed to hit speeds over 120 mph, but like the As and F7s, these have never officially provened.
Can you do a video on Kraus Maffei Hydraulics and why they failed in the US Market at some point? That subject has been debated for awhile on their effectiveness
keep up the international videos my guy!!! the milwaukee road "s-3" class northern #261 has to be researched more (i think you'll appreciate the excursions she was a part of, very photogenic)
Thank You. I was just about to point that out. The ONLY "Oil-Burning" 84"-drivered 4-6-4 locos, were the Santa Fe 3460-class, of which the Class Leader was streamlined, and called "The Blue Goose"!
@@nikolausbautista8925 and your statement about the 3400 doesn't acknowledge any of that. Sure, the 3400s were the only 84" driver Hudsons ordered as oil burners, but that doesn't make them the only 84" oil burning hudson
A friend told me he could get from downtown Chicago to Eagle, WI in just about exactly 90 minutes, there was a train that left Milwaukee for Eagle a couple of minutes after the run up from Chicago arrived. Now it's two hours by vehicle if the traffic is next to perfect, three-plus most of the time.
All this happened in my neck of the woods. It’s great hearing all the strange place names around here pronounced correctly, which people from here don’t always do! Although I would like to hear Mr Macveigh take on “Oconomowoc”😁
@@tulyar1043 problem with Truros is it was never a fully confirmed thing, just a stop watch timing by a chap... so its a big grey area...I quote from rail magazine "The latest research examines the evidence and uses computer simulation of the locomotive performance to show that a speed of 100 mph was possible but John Heaton and Bill Hemstock's exhaustive research conclude the engine probably peaked at just under 99 mph around milepost 168"
@@spodface12 I found a website about this a while back, it's funny how the Milwaukee Road was unofficially competing with the London & North Eastern Railway on fastest steam operations. While the LNER can certainly claim the record for fastest non-streamlined steamer with A3 2750 'Papyrus,' I think the MILW deserves the record over the LNER for having the first steam locomotive to officially "do the ton," with F-6 6402 being recorded at a maximum of ~103 mph, holding 100 for a couple miles. 4472 on the other hand was recorded for less than a second at 100 mph during its test run, being such an isolated measurement that timekeepers debated something must've knocked in the dynamometer car (the LNER was financially malnourished similar to the MILW. At best, Flying Scotsman must've hit 99 mph (it still would've been an A1 by that point), but the LNER's publicity department ran with 100 mph for promotions and such
"The Bristolian" was fast, but "The Cheltenham Flyer" was even faster, they shared the same route east of Swindon. The fastest run over the 77 miles Swindon to Paddington was 56 minutes 47 seconds start to stop, average 81.7mph. The engine was "Tregenna Castle "+.+
Just to upset a few people regarding Mallard, should the LMS, GWR and Southern not had a go with their most powerful locos on the same track and same loading? Sorry if this upsets people.
In the US, tests were done by the Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1900s, and with their typical noblesse oblige, shared their results to the wider railroad community. This was received with enthusiasm by railroads in the western US like ATSF and SP, which converted many steam locomotives to oil firing and specified new one to run on oil. Today, many preserved steam locomotives in the US are being converted to oil firing, especially in areas where there is a fire hazard on the right of way (the Durango and Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad is one example), or there are savings in fuel expenses when switching to oil from coal.
MILW Road was known for oil burners it's not talked about much tho. Specially in the "Gap" Milwaukee Road had oil burning steam engines. Lots of Western USA railroads had oil burners GN, MILW, UP, Santa Fe...
At about the six minute mark, you have some images and footage of later editions of the Hiawatha. No big deal. The observation car is the 1937-edition Beaver Tail (third generation!), and the color footage is from the 1950s. Just a small detail. While the word Hiawatha is indeed from the Iroquois, the more direct inspiration was from a poem by Longfellow-"fleet of foot was Hiawatha". You can see why "fleet of foot" would appeal to an attempt to name a very fast new train.
sorry-meant 1938 for the observation car (finger slipped). As said, it was the third generation. The original trains had the first, the second generation came with the update, and the third and final generation of the Beaver Tail came with the F7. Note the elaborate fins on the third generation. This was an effort to combat sun glare that was a real issue in the preceding two models.
Trusts doesn't seem interested in making these. They rather make the bigger T1. They look cool and definitely a more bullish look vs the sleek Steak A4.
One of the larger considerations for new build/rebuild is maximizing the potential train length to sell more tickets/increase revenue. A 4-4-2 won't pull 18 coaches.
@@jordanarms2081 Gresley did make the W1000 4-6-4. Also Both Gresley and Stainer did plan for mountain type 4-8-2s and the latter even planned a 4-8-4! The actual limit was the turntable length. They did both make Garret type locos for freight.
@@maestromecanico597 Steam nowadays is only for attractions and nostalgic. They're really no longer the tools they where in their heyday. Those days are long finished are long gone forever and will never come back.
@@gerogyzurkov2259 In these United States steam operations have to be self sustaining. Nostalgia is nice but doesn’t pay the bills. If one wants to run “fan trips” with steam locomotion then you must maximize the number of tickets sold.
I’m a Wisconsinite, my great grand father was one of the lucky drivers privileged to drive the Class A’s, G5’s and the powerful F7
That is awesome.
Thanks for sharing, It was a glamorous time in America's history when the Hiawathas and others like it ruled the rails
*Escape to WisconSin.*
_Chicago’s Campground State_
*Playboy Club resort*
_Ishnala_
*_Margarine Free Supper Clubs_*
Two of the most legendary signs in all of railroading stood on the Mikwaukee Road Chicago-Milwaukee line, a few miles in advance of Rondout Interlocking, one on the northbound main, and one on the southbound. They said:
SLOW TO 90 MPH
At one point there’s a pic of it stating slow to 100mph! lol!
what could I google to see that sign!? :)
I like the grade crossing sign at Fort McCoy pictured in Jim Scribbins' "The Hiawatha Story":
WARNING!
STOP-LOOK!
TRAINS PASS
100MPH
I rode behind Class A # 4 at 110 MPH in 1948. Sat in the Beavertail too.
Got to walk through the Beavertail a few years ago. It was on display at St. Paul Union Depot.
I'm so jealous.
@@MrGsweatherchannel Ditto.
@@tomfields3682Skytop lounge Cedar Rapids not a beaver tail.
Back in the 1970s, I saw a very-weathered sign at a rural road crossing that stated: Caution! Trains traveling at speeds exceeding 100 mph. That sign was at the double-track Milwaukee Road main line near New Lisbon.
Yes
I drive through New Lesbians often
And sometimes watch the train's blasting through town 🚂
There's one of those signs at the Milwaukee Road Historical Association Museum at the Illinois Railway Museum. The one here comes from the Ft McCoy area.
A little clarification at the end-the A-class were generally off of the Twin Cities run by WWII, though they did continue to serve as understudies/backups in case something happened with the regular power.
The initial generation of diesel locomotives (as purchased by the Milwaukee Road, and not including railcars/trainsets) was actually not as fast as the steam locomotives, topping out at 108-110 mph. However, they had superior acceleration, which canceled out the higher top speed of the steam engines.
The Hiawatha was renowned for its smooth ride, and the Milwaukee had a superbly straight alignment, but the smooth ride had nothing to do with the track. In fact, the Milwaukee was infamous for its poor track quality. The reason the Hiawatha rode so smoothly was down to the fact that the Milwaukee developed truly superb suspension for its coaches in order to compensate for the poor track! When you rode on Milwaukee tracks in passenger cars that were NOT from the Milwaukee Road, it could be something of an Experience! And not one that was particularly conducive to a good appetite!
Those F7s are handsome machines and that art deco Hiawatha logo is absolutely perfect. What a shame they didn’t save at least one for a museum.
Greetings from Portage, Wisconsin! There is still a bustling train yard here. I worked a few years for a shuttle service (PTI) that moved train Engineers and Conductors from station site to train, or reverse depending on the situation, so I saw a lot of the systems used by CP (Canadian Pacific), BNSF, CSX, Norfolk Southern, and Union Pacific railroads. But Portage is going strong with regular Amtrack service, a major container train that stops through every afternoon for crew change, and 24/7/365 operations in the yard rerouting train cars. Thanks for the mention! Cheers!
I live in Portage, WI and have heard many stories about the Hiawathas and their high speeds on the long straightaways between Portage and Sparta. Well researched and put together as always 👍 The Hiawatha name still lives on as an Amtrak commuter service between Chicago and Milwaukee
Highest speed from a trusted source, that was ever shared directly with me was 126mph. Looking at the condition of the roadbed in the 70s, it seemed incredible to me!
This one is right down my wheelhouse, Rory! Grew up along these tracks in Edgebrook and later Glenview. The right of way was my playground. My dad commuted on the Milwaukee Road. My train set was Milwaukee Road. And many times My dad took me aboard the Hiawatha to Wisconsin Dells (possibley shown at 12:42). I had to wear a jacket and tie even when I was still in short pants, lol. What beautiful interiors. And to sit upstairs in the Superdome, or bask in the boozey cigar lounge in the Beaver Tail was to me, an unforgetable coming of age... Great episode! Thank you so much!
A coat & tie with short pants - a much simpler time. I lived along the NYC Water Level Route in those days with our trips from upstate NY to the city behind a Hudson. Thank you for the smile.
An excellent video on my favorite railroad. I rode behind the Class A on the Midwest Hiawatha in WWII. The CNW E-6 could not be used on their Twin Cities route due to weight restriction on bridges.
The interlocking at Rondout, Illinois had a sign that read “trains slow to 100mph over diamond”. Craziest railroad sign ever.
Indeed-- my dad mentioned it everytime he took us train-watching there...
Now Amtrak goes like 40 at Rondout
Thanks for the footage of the Hiawatha skirting my backyard back in the day!
Wow, Thanks for this gem! I live in the Twin Cities, and always liked the very attractive Hiawatha trains. I learned a lot. The beautiful old depot is still here.
Ah, the Milwaukee Road, distinct enough to be legendary despite being dogged by financial problems throughout much of their existence. Their rise and fall is a story in and of itself, including a huge electrification project years before the PRR's, rugged mountain construction, these As and F7s, the Little Joes, and commuter programs in Chicago that eventually led to RTA and Metra, which continues to this day.
It's also great to see more footage of the old Zephyrs in action. One of the original Pioneer sets is sitting on display in Chicago. I personally live along the line it took between there and Zephyr, some distance outside Chicago. Burlington and its successors definitely had an easier time of it financially than the Milwaukee!
The steam age , was always so romantic, with all the bells , whistles! I think children miss them the most.
Small correction-the six car Zephyrs replaced the three-car sets, not supplemented them. Each set made one round trip per day, thereby providing two round trips total. Even this was not enough, so the sets were lengthened with additional cars over the next several years. The three-car sets were standing-room only, so Burlington quickly realized that putting them on the Twin Cities route was a BAD idea.
The greatest irony of Milwaukee railroad, that they’ve electrified mountain pass segments about a year before oil crisis started.
Should they opted to patch the aging poles and catenary instead, they would likely rake in quite a profit next year…
You surely meant they DE-electrified before the oil crisis.
The tragedy of US railroading comes down to the financing difficulty private railroads face with long-term infrastructure projects relative to government-funded ones. The Milewaukee Pacific electrification is a good example. It was revolutionary by US standards, but already had its problems at the start. It was a solution to a problem resulting from cost-savings elsewhere: no long tunnels like in the Alps, so steep inclines instead. Then, it was done on the cheap: with wooden poles unable to keep alignment, and not throughout but only on the three mountain sections. The last was part of the reason it was scrapped: to run a train on the Pacific Extension, the locos had to be changed six times, which is bad for economics. Again, the Milwaukee had no hope for financing to complete the electrification.
As a contrast, forget Europe or Japan or China, just look at India today. Back in 2017, when their broad-gauge network was 40% electrified, they set a target of 100% electrification by 2023, or in a little over six years. They are now set to achieve that just one year later; at the start of this year, they were at almost 94% (with Covid being the main reason for the delay).
The BIGGEST problem that the MILW ROAD had was piss--poor management, that did not want to be in the RR business any more. Read MilwRoad-- WHAT REALLY HAPPENED!
@@Daneelro At the end of the route for the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension, it was the most profitable line. The judge who took over the latest Milwaukee Road bankruptcy said he did not have all the facts presented in the latest bankruptcy filing. The judge himself, after the end of the bankruptcy, said that he had never seen such an incompetent administration in the railway operations. The people who ran the company were very adamant that Milwaukee Road merge with other competitors.
@@Joe-d7m6kYup!!! I love that article! One of my favorite alternate history dreams I've had lately would've been The Milwaukee Road and the New York Central merging before Penn Central so I could have Alfred E. Perlman in charge of the Milwaukee Road.
@@baassbooster Well the key term is WAS their most profitable. What really doomed the Pacific Extension was a combination of cost overruns and the Burlington Northern merger of 1970...
The Electrification, while useful for its time in the days of steam, by the time of the 1980s the Diesel Electric had caught up to the Electrics. The Milwaukee Road maintained the two sections of Electric Operations before they decided to cut it down to one because the section over St. Paul Pass was the steepest section on the entire railroad with a grade that was running close to 3 percent. Initially, this Electric Operation was able to sustain itself with a consistent flow of Lumber Goods that were coming out of Pacific Northwest markets, but then in 1970 that all changed.
The Burlington Northern stripped away the Milwaukee Roads market share in the Seattle-Tacoma area, and every so slowly customers began moving away from the Milwaukee Road. At one point 56 percent of all goods flowing out of the Pacific Northwest were going out on Milwaukee Road trains, by 1974 (The year Electric Operations were discontinued), that had dropped so much to a point that Milwaukee was able to maintain things such as adequate track structure, bridge maintenance, and most importantly paying for the cost of running the electric operations.
The Milwaukee Road was so adamant on a merger partner in the 1970s because without an equal share to equal the size of Burlington Northern, they wouldn't be able to compete with such a large mega railroad. Several options were on the table, including the Chicago & Northwestern and the Rock Island. However not only did the Milwaukee turn down the Chicago & Northwestern (Which probably could've saved them for a little while longer) due to the C&NW being in the same financial situation, but the Rock Island was a bottomless financial moneypit by the time of the 1970s and had already got itself into a long fight with ICC to try and merge with once a Milwaukee Road partner, Union Pacific.
Even if all these issues could've been avoided, the Electric Operation was gonna go anyway. If Burlington Northern got ahold of the Milwaukee Road, they would've abandoned the Pacific Extension in favor of forwarding it to other routes. If the Milwaukee Road merged with another railroad, it would've only prolonged their demise by a little bit longer. The only true way of saving the Electric Operation in the Bitterroot Mountains would be to A) Prevent Burlington Northern from forming, and B) Have Montana be in a much better economic state than it was in the 1970s.
Its sad this to be the case considering the Burlington Northern was quite influential in the world of American Railroading and made several pioneering achievements. But also Milwaukee had such a unique operation that nearly beat everyone out in the competition for the Pacific Northwest if it wasn't for cost overruns and two economic recessions that ultimately destroyed it.
..the Hiawatha's were amazing, Particularly the F7s.
I did ride the diesel powered ones between Milwaukee and Chicago as well as Milwaukee tp :LaCrosse and the Twin Cities which they still were fast and comfortable. Particularly loved riding in the Superdome and the Skytop Lounge which were Iconic. My last trip on a Milwaukee Road Hiawatha was in the Summer of 1970 to LaCrosse before Amtrak took over passenger rail service.
Today Amtrak's Empire Builder crawls along the corridor at an average speed of 54 MPH taking over 9 hours (and then some due to freight operations) between the two endpoints
4:25 9:37 This Milwaukee Class A's Express Steam Locomotives In The United States Of America Looks Amazing. Excellent. Thanks Mate. PS It's A Bit Like LNER Gresley A4 Streamlined Pacific Steam Locomotive Mallard From The National Railway Museum In York In Yorkshire In The UK. Terrific. X❤
Hiawatha was a beautiful train , I rode that train from Seattle to Spokane , Washington State , I was 5 and I remember the tunnel , and the high bridge over the Columbia River ... Big brother and Mama were with me , what a lovely time , that rear car with all of that glass , and the bubble top 2 tier passenger car, simply magical. ♥ in 1965 .. this
I worked on the railroad for 42 years loved it ❤
I grow up in Beloit a city that honors Milwaukee Road. I now live in Minneapolis and only a few miles from the depots which received these trains and cars. The thing is the history is almost all but lost if not for enthusiasts and content creators like you.
Check out archival aerial images to see how busy Minneapolis once was with rail traffic. Specifically around Hiawatha avenue.
Sol glad to see these wonderful but sorely neglected engines some love.
Truly magnificent locomotives! Tragically, none were saved!!
Ironic that one of the locomotive that replaced the Milwaukee Road ALCO F7s were EMD F7s lol. Great video Ruairidh!
Well done, said. What a treat. Thanks!
Well into the 60s Milwaukee roads Hiawatha's would be fairly close to their steam brothers! Indeed a once great railroad! Super video thank you!
01:25 How nice to see lots of freight wagons with no graffiti on them. 21st century railway videos invariably show many freight cars with unsightly graffiti on them.
Hello from the great city of Milwaukee on the great lakes!!
Excellent and tightly-produced piece, along with terrific footage!
Consider what is the greater contribution, a one time, staged stunt of speed that lasted a few minutes experienced by maybe a couple hundred people, or the fact that by 1940, millions of everyday working class Americans had personally traveled at over 112 MPH, often while sipping coffee or reading the newspaper…. Speed Record attempts are often made by the insecure. Like the New York Central strapping jet engines on an RDC! The Confident don’t waste their time with Record attempts. They just quietly deliver speed to the masses by making it an everyday practice by publishing the fastest daily steam timetable in the world.
Actually, the Black Beetle had a real, serious, reason for the tests. They wanted to see if it was possible to run very high speed trains on existing track. What was the effect of speed on track as compared to weight? etc. etc.
So, yes. There WAS a good purpose for the whole Jets-on-a-Budd thing. it was just far too late in the day financially speaking-the NYC was already going down, the infamous PC merger was on the horizon, and management was pessimistic about passenger trains. Once the merger happened, the Pennsylvania already had its own high speed efforts-the Metroliner-so the results of the Black Beetle program were pretty much rendered redundant.
Can you make a video about the streamlined locos of the South Manchuria Railway? Please? :)
The Non-stop LNER service from London to Edinburgh was completed in 6 hours regularly by an A4 - 393 miles in 360 minutes. Hardly 40mph. The non-stop was A4 hauled until the end in the early 1960s from its re-introduction following WWII. The introduction of diesels resulted in stops being included.
Steampunk live. Glorious designs. Just so pretty. Love it.
Thank you Ruairidh for your always varied and interesting output.
In 1962, the Boeing 707 came to life. And all these beautiful trains became history. I love the Hiawatha...
Wow. Excellent, thank you sir !!
Beautifully told!
Really nice video. Thank you.
My Wisconsin native dad rode the Hiawatha's on a regular basis before the war. He always talked about how smooth the train rode. He had some great stories from that time.
These were my top favourite American passenger steam locomotives, they looked tremendously stylish.
Since WW2 passenger trains in the US just have gotten slower and slower, and it's only recently that at least on some routes trains come near these average speeds.
Maybe you can do a video about the Belgian type 12 locomotive, also a streamlined Atlantic which took the record for the highest average service speed from the Milwaukee Road in 1939, only for the Milwaukee Road to take the record back in 1940. Has to be noted that the distance ran in Belgium was a lot shorter of course.
Would be an interesting comparison as the class A and type 12 were the largest and heaviest Atlantic locomotives on their respective continents.
The slowdown of American trains and decline in service is always blamed on cars, but the reality is that the ICC had been working to gain ever more government control over the private railroads and the wreck in 1946 was just evidence needed that they couldn’t be trusted to run passenger trains faster than 79 mph, despite evidence that it was human error and that the existing signaling system and Operating rules, if followed, would have prevented the incident. The ICC would continue its attack on railroads driving all passenger services and almost half of the freight railroads into government control by the 1970s. Since deregulation, the private railroads have become the most efficient land based networks on the planet and the government run passenger service, even when operating on government owned routes, is among the worst in the developed world.
@@scottwendt9575 If we truly had a Free Market in this country, gasoline would be Ten Bucks a gallon (and there wouldn't be a single drop of ethanol in it!), a plane ticket from NYC-LAX would set you back about $7500, and passenger trains would be running standing room only.
Same, They looked beautiful but unfortunately after World War II ended soldiers who came back home wanted to drive their cars with the growing automobile culture in the 50s so railroads by that time were in serious financial muck, The Milwaukie Road did not save these locomotives for obtaining new diesels via scrap price
I grew up on the main line between Bensenville and Savanna. Too young for steam but remember the E8s pulling passenger cars in the early 60s down to Soo line take over and now CPKC
Fantastic footage, images, & information. Very interesting thank you for a fascinating post! 🙂.
So many pictures of the Beavertails, great.
There were even 4-6-0 Ten Wheelers given Hiawatha shrouds, but they didn’t attain as high of speeds
Hey the Hiawatha was a Chippewa figurehead. Great photos here.
Absolutely stunning equipment, technically of course amazing but how gorgeous to look at too, better times imo
Top quality as always!
MILWAUKEE ROAD ran North with 4-6-2 Pacific 152 F3 Streamliner to GREEN BAY, WISCONSIN, AND IRON MOUNTAIN, MICHIGAN, and paint 🎨 Orange 🍊 to match "HIAWATHA", and standby loco to replace Class A during maintenence.
Honorable mention to Southern Pacific's subsidiary Texas & New Orleans for running the Hustler passenger trains between Dallas and Houston!
Very informative. Greetings from Port Saint Lucie, Florida.
Really beautiful steam locos!
You don't need to put a speed gun on a train to find a maximum speed. If you are familiar with Calculus, you can use the Mean Value Thoerem. So if they weren't captured , you can use the measured point to point distance and time taken , you can use this to prove ( or otherwise) a record speed of the American engines. In general, you can tell that a maximum speed happened, but not where or when on the trip.
I think building a new one and seeing what it can do would be the fairest way to test it...and Dwight D Eisenhower is already in Wisconsin...
There’s currently a new PRR T1 being built to do just that
You should think about covering the PRR Duplexes next.
Or even better, how about Union Pacific's Big Boys and Challengers
One should know that there was intense competition for the US Mail contracts between Chicago and Saint Paul during those years.
The St. Paul, MN Post Office was third largest in the USA. The reason: All mail for the NW states was handled by St. Paul, including Seattle and Portland. Much of the mail headed West on the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, the Milwaukee Road, and the Soo Line. This may be verified by John Diers' book, "St. Paul Union Depot".
a shame they never did give these a proper test run series. Would be nice to have an official "top speed"no matter what the end result was
Awesome and informative video as always
Well done documentary.
The Hiawatha weren’t the fastest steam locomotives my maximum speed reached, but by average speed on daily runs
Both the A and F7 classes averaged over 100 mph daily, while daily runs in Britain rarely achieved such speeds
The locomotive pictured was a New York Central Class J3A, not a Norfolk & Western J as noted.great video nonetheless. Incidentally, I have no doubt that either a Milwaukee F7/PRR S1 or T1/NYC J3A or S1 could have eclipsed 4468. This video has convinced me that it would have done, they were designed for speed. Yet why didn't the yanks make a record attempt? Multiple railroads could have owned it!
4-6-4s were never intended for CNWs premier Chicago- Twin Cities service. Those were class E2 4-6-2 Pacifics, rebuilt for the 400 service into class E2a. They ran in this service Jan. 1935 until replaced by EMD- built E3 diesels, in 1939.
They certainly were, the 400 could top out at 112mph and they needed a locomotive that could hit that consistently. Only the early E units and a modern 4-6-4 could do that in 1938. The Pacifics were just temporary along with the heavy weight coaches.
@@packr72 I dare you to find me a 400 picture with a Hudson on it
@@renegadetenor That’s because the CNW changed their mind before the Hudson’s arrived. They were designed to pull to pull it but never did.
well done. thank you.
i believe that a Pennsy T1 Duplex probably ran faster than all other steam on at least one anecdotal occasion published in Trains magazine in late 1991. A T1 had been relegated to the stand-by line for weeks and was covered in dust when it was hostled and put into service on one more run. During it's penultimate station stop, it was behind by 9 minutes. It made them up over the next 40 miles, meaning it had to be running well in excess of 120 mph for a sizeable portion of the portion when it was accelerating and then braking.
I wouldn't be surprised if Rory covers the S and T1s at some point in the future as they've also been claimed to hit speeds over 120 mph, but like the As and F7s, these have never officially provened.
Awesome. I haven't watched yet but I know I'm gonna learn something fun.
0:55 The young boy waving to the passing train, I thought was a bit close to the elecyric cables above him.
This is a bit of a stretch, but can you talk about a place in U.S Railroading? More specifically, the Norfolk & Western’s Roanoke Shops?
Can you do a video on Kraus Maffei Hydraulics and why they failed in the US Market at some point? That subject has been debated for awhile on their effectiveness
This is a cool video! I was like four years old when my family took Milwaukee Road from Madison to Minneapolis about 1963-4
keep up the international videos my guy!!! the milwaukee road "s-3" class northern #261 has to be researched more (i think you'll appreciate the excursions she was a part of, very photogenic)
@9:05 You say the F7s were oil-burners on footage literally showing an F7 with a big pile of coal in its tender.
Thank You. I was just about to point that out. The ONLY "Oil-Burning" 84"-drivered 4-6-4 locos, were the Santa Fe 3460-class, of which the Class Leader was streamlined, and called "The Blue Goose"!
@@nikolausbautista8925CNW class E-4 was also oil burning.
@@steffen19kconverted to oil. As-built, they were coal-burners.
@@nikolausbautista8925 and your statement about the 3400 doesn't acknowledge any of that. Sure, the 3400s were the only 84" driver Hudsons ordered as oil burners, but that doesn't make them the only 84"
oil burning hudson
@@steffen19kokay, you win the internet.
The drawings at 7:50 have metric dimensions?
A friend told me he could get from downtown Chicago to Eagle, WI in just about exactly 90 minutes, there was a train that left Milwaukee for Eagle a couple of minutes after the run up from Chicago arrived. Now it's two hours by vehicle if the traffic is next to perfect, three-plus most of the time.
On the J line
On the box cars, no single grafitti tag. Unbelievable as of today
All this happened in my neck of the woods. It’s great hearing all the strange place names around here pronounced correctly, which people from here don’t always do! Although I would like to hear Mr Macveigh take on “Oconomowoc”😁
Very fast indeed! It might be worth noting that the first steam engine ever to exceed 100 mph was a Milwaukee Road class F6 in June 1934.
City of Truro a GWR engine 104 mph in 1904.
@@tulyar1043 problem with Truros is it was never a fully confirmed thing, just a stop watch timing by a chap... so its a big grey area...I quote from rail magazine "The latest research examines the evidence and uses computer simulation of the locomotive performance to show that a speed of 100 mph was possible but John Heaton and Bill Hemstock's exhaustive research conclude the engine probably peaked at just under 99 mph around milepost 168"
@@spodface12 I found a website about this a while back, it's funny how the Milwaukee Road was unofficially competing with the London & North Eastern Railway on fastest steam operations. While the LNER can certainly claim the record for fastest non-streamlined steamer with A3 2750 'Papyrus,' I think the MILW deserves the record over the LNER for having the first steam locomotive to officially "do the ton," with F-6 6402 being recorded at a maximum of ~103 mph, holding 100 for a couple miles. 4472 on the other hand was recorded for less than a second at 100 mph during its test run, being such an isolated measurement that timekeepers debated something must've knocked in the dynamometer car (the LNER was financially malnourished similar to the MILW. At best, Flying Scotsman must've hit 99 mph (it still would've been an A1 by that point), but the LNER's publicity department ran with 100 mph for promotions and such
Those were the days, so fast and the safe tracks to carry them!
Is the audio compressed to hell or has Ruairidh been replaced by an AI?
Wow! I had no idea!
If you had a chance to go back in time and become a rail tycoon, what steam train design would you bring back?
Quite fascinating indeed...
Hell. Yes.
Didn't some of the GWR "Limited" services between Paddington-Bristol achieve high averages of 80+ mph?
"The Bristolian" was fast, but "The Cheltenham Flyer" was even faster, they shared the same route east of Swindon. The fastest run over the 77 miles Swindon to Paddington was 56 minutes 47 seconds start to stop, average 81.7mph. The engine was "Tregenna Castle "+.+
Regarding record speed trains - whatever happend to Silver Jubilee coaches A4s initially pulled?
Expensive job to maintain those track beds for 100++ mph steam trains.
Just to upset a few people regarding Mallard, should the LMS, GWR and Southern not had a go with their most powerful locos on the same track and same loading? Sorry if this upsets people.
Are they any of the F7 stall live and able to be put back in service.????????????
Hello from Kansas 🇺🇲
This is the first I'm ever hearing of an oil-fired steam locomotive!
I guess I have more reading to do!
In the US, tests were done by the Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1900s, and with their typical noblesse oblige, shared their results to the wider railroad community. This was received with enthusiasm by railroads in the western US like ATSF and SP, which converted many steam locomotives to oil firing and specified new one to run on oil. Today, many preserved steam locomotives in the US are being converted to oil firing, especially in areas where there is a fire hazard on the right of way (the Durango and Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad is one example), or there are savings in fuel expenses when switching to oil from coal.
@@centamangila1217 Thank you very much!
There's one on display in Ft. Madison IA by the foot of the Mississippi bridge. It's a Santa Fe, built during the WW2 years.
MILW Road was known for oil burners it's not talked about much tho. Specially in the "Gap" Milwaukee Road had oil burning steam engines. Lots of Western USA railroads had oil burners GN, MILW, UP, Santa Fe...
Oil Fired locomotives were extremely common in desert places where oil was plentiful, and coal and wood were scarce.
The Milwaukee Road
13:39 is the tender derailed?
The last class A. Was used as a boiler heater. Well in to the50s. A sad end.
It's only a record, by definition, if it got recorded. Shame the potential wasn't fully realised.
All in all…great video and as a Yank, first one i’ve seen on it here👍🏻🚂
Sorry i was mistaking the steam F7 is an Hudson 2-3-2 not à Pacific
Cheers from Ohio Rory!
At about the six minute mark, you have some images and footage of later editions of the Hiawatha. No big deal. The observation car is the 1937-edition Beaver Tail (third generation!), and the color footage is from the 1950s. Just a small detail.
While the word Hiawatha is indeed from the Iroquois, the more direct inspiration was from a poem by Longfellow-"fleet of foot was Hiawatha". You can see why "fleet of foot" would appeal to an attempt to name a very fast new train.
sorry-meant 1938 for the observation car (finger slipped). As said, it was the third generation. The original trains had the first, the second generation came with the update, and the third and final generation of the Beaver Tail came with the F7. Note the elaborate fins on the third generation. This was an effort to combat sun glare that was a real issue in the preceding two models.
Trusts doesn't seem interested in making these. They rather make the bigger T1.
They look cool and definitely a more bullish look vs the sleek Steak A4.
Bear in mind how tight our loading gauge is - which has always limited British locomotive design - the Americans had no such constraints
One of the larger considerations for new build/rebuild is maximizing the potential train length to sell more tickets/increase revenue. A 4-4-2 won't pull 18 coaches.
@@jordanarms2081 Gresley did make the W1000 4-6-4. Also Both Gresley and Stainer did plan for mountain type 4-8-2s and the latter even planned a 4-8-4! The actual limit was the turntable length. They did both make Garret type locos for freight.
@@maestromecanico597 Steam nowadays is only for attractions and nostalgic. They're really no longer the tools they where in their heyday. Those days are long finished are long gone forever and will never come back.
@@gerogyzurkov2259 In these United States steam operations have to be self sustaining. Nostalgia is nice but doesn’t pay the bills. If one wants to run “fan trips” with steam locomotion then you must maximize the number of tickets sold.
This is a hopeful dream, but is there any possibility that in 2024 one of the F7's was spared and is a barn find hidden in a scrapyard somewhere?