Totally agree that making an older bike with slightly outdated geometry slacker can give it new life. I have a 2019 canyon spectral with a 66 degree head tube angle. I swapped out the stock 27.5" 160mm fork and wheel with a 29" 150mm fork and wheel to make it a mullet and slacken it out (essentially over-forked it by swapping to the 29" wheel). It made the bike around 1-1.5 degrees slacker and made it so much fun. I kept the 27.5" wheel and fork and swap it back from time to time. Now its like having 2 bikes in 1. Great videos - keep it up! Cheers!
I put a -1.5 angle set on my 2018 Yeti SB 5.5 and it was a game changer. Added a coil with a progressive spring and now it’s a full on ripper! The seat tube angle is steeper, wheelbase longer and BB lower. All things needed to give it more modern geo and keep me rolling for another 2 years. Super stoked
Yes. (For me 😁) On my ‘16 134 I put a -2deg angleset on + a 160 fork (from 140) and the bike went from 68 to 65 HTA. With minimal change in BB height. HUGE difference in downhill capability. With a 125mm head tube the thing is overbuilt and I have zero concerns about durability. I did have to run a 50mm stem to keep front from washing out constantly on flat turns (I crashed a lot before that). This also lead to me thinking about going back to 140 travel in the front but a 29er wheel. This would keep the ATC of my current setup but the dynamic ride quality might be different… Jury’s still out on that one, but I think it’s one of the few ways you could mullet a 27.5 bike without the huge change in Geo.
I just did that on my 2018 Santa Cruz Hightower. Head tube around 64.5-65 and the seat tube around 75 (76 with saddle forward). Running 29 F/R with 150 mm fork. I wanted to extend the life of the bike until I'm ready to move on, but in this setup it feels much more stable downhill and it still climbs well. Plus I can still use my 27.5 wheels or set it up as mullet
I done it with a orbea Rise, 170 travel in the front and 160 in the rear. ( 216x63 shock with one bishing = shock length effectiv 214mm ) and yes I love it and make a better bike for me. I will agree your statement 💪
Yep but when you keep the old shock and have an extra bushing, you suddenly have 2 bikes. one for longs flatter days, and one for rough DH. It takes 10 minutes to switch between them if you have a fork you can adjust the travel on without taking it apart (like a Mezzer).
This was exactly the kind of information I needed. My trail bike has a 130mm fork with a 66.5 degree head angle. I am not the most confident descender therefore I am going to increase the travel to 140mm and slacken out the angle. I just have to decide on if to go with 1 or 1.5 degrees.
Mulleting, over forking, angle set... Will all change the handling of your steed. For mind, over forking isn't as drastic as everyone makes out. Sure the HTA will obviously get slacker. But, aspects of the bike that are further away from the site of change are less affected. I've generally over forked all my rigs. My '17 Nukeproof 290 hard tail was designed around 120-130mm of travel. I set it up on a 140mm fork and it's killer. My Banshee Phantom V3 was designed around 130mm of travel... again, I've gone for 140 up front. I've also mulleted it out, which has slackened everything even more so. The Phantom V3 comes with adjustable dropouts... in the low mode the bike felt a bit off... however, in the high mode it feels just right. I've also just built up a '21 Trek Remedy w/ a 170mm fork, in the low mode. I've also upsized to XL from my usual large sizing. The bike absolutely rips!! Still has the well renowned Remedy 'Pop', but is also stable at speed through the chop.
I think you guys nailed it. Back in the day I rode for a couple different bike manufactures and kept saying, we need more head angle, we need more head angle. But this was for strictly downhill racing. I don't really remember what the number I requested was, but I think it was 64 degrees.
@@bikersedge ,....Yep, it is crazy. If you find an old picture of an old downhill bike (the first couple of generations) you can see how steep their head angles were. I think something like 68 degrees was the norm. Guys used to go over the bars all the time. I raced the Deer Valley norba nationals a few times on those crazy bikes.
Hey Guys! So I actually steepened by Sentinel V2 by 1 degree using a Wolf Tooth Geoshift Headset to get a 64.6 degree HA. I found with stock 63.6 HA I was understeering a bit in corners and it seemed a bit cumbersome for the Vermont trails where I ride. I looked at a lot of different bike geometry (Yeti SB150, Ibis Ripmo AF, etc.) to get comparison and I felt 64.6 made sense for 150/160 travel. I think how you fit on the bike makes a difference as well, I'm 5'11" on a size large whereas someone 6'1" would be positioned more over the front with longer torso, legs, and arms. Also, I may put in a 170 air shaft this summer for bike park days and effectively make the HA 64.1 degrees.
I'm ready for a new New England trail bike, upgrading from my 2017 140/140 Intense Primer which is perfect for MA/NH techy awfulness. Problem is, everything is noticeably longer, slacker and lower which is the opposite of what I need for switchbacks, rock gardens and tight gnar. For me, the problem with newer bikes is more than just HTA.
I have a 2022 Chameleon mullet that I put a RS Pike 140 Ultimate on, and thinking about the 9point8 slacker as well. Do you have the newer version (65deg HTA) or the older version?
I have messed around with this quite a bit and found over forking plus one or two offset bushings depending on the bike is the way to go in most situations. Less extreme head angle adjust and allows you to tune the bike a bit more how you want it. Plus they are $20. Thanks for another great video 🤙
I ran the offset bushings on my 2020 Occam XL (150mm fork) nearly all season but swapped back to the original bushings in the fall and immediately liked the latter better. With the stock bushings this bike felt more nimble and poppy. Riding here in Norway it’s mostly all natural stuff with technical climbs. Guess the terrain is key. As you say, offset bushings is a cheap way to test things without much hassle.
I am looking to go much the opposite direction. I ride in Western Oklahoma and bomber hills are simply not found here. I really like the steel head angle of an XC bike with the suspension of a trail bike. Going to use an angle adjusting headset to get there. Same path, for a different destination!
My wife’s ripley rolls on a 140 fox 36, which ups the a2c something like 15mm from stock. 65.75 hta is a lot more reasonable these days for a trail bike in moderate terrain than stock 66.5. Feels so much less sketchy :). That’s Just to second your point on the ripley. I’m sure whenever the v5 comes out it will update to closer to the afs geo.
I have a Litespeed Pinhoti boost (V2) hardtail that I have been riding overforked for a couple of years with 130mm front travel instead of 120. However, this longer fork than stock slackened the already slack STA. I swapped the fork for a 120 which fixed the slack STA, but steepened the HTA to 69.5 degrees and shortened the wheelbase - bike is super nervous feeling now. Next step is the addition of a -1 degree angleset to get me back to the longer wheelbase and slacker HTA I had with the 130 but with the secondary benefit of steepening the STA slightly. Hopefully, it won't lower the BB too much.
I did this by replacing my 160 fork for a 180, but totally ruined handling, to fix it I inserted maximum amount of tokens and set up sag as if it is a 170. I would like to know if someone has experimented with "over shocking" the rear, and play with offset bushings 😁 Love your videos, keep up the great work!
Very interesting guys! I really like my Transition Sentinel that has a steep head tube angle of 63.6 One thing about that bike, it's great on everyday trails but when you get into some narly terrain it eats it up so good.
Awesome video, I have been playing with the idea of putting an angle set on my 27.5 Trance (67HTA/73.5 STA). I think this will bump up the geo a bit to more modern standards. I really like that it steepens the STA as well it seems kind of a win/win.
@@blakelynton7072 hey! I saw your comment on my other video. I got a works angle adjust headset to slacken the Trance 2* and then I bumped up the travel on my Suntour Aion fork by 10mm so essentially another .5* on the whole bike. The final HTA is 64.5 and STA would be 75.
I have a SC 5010 V3. Upped the 130 fork to 140 with an air shaft. I noticed very little change in the handling. (I’ve always ridden in the High setting.)
Thinking of just putting 2 degree on my 2017-2019 intense primer and keeping it at 140mm… thinking the primer is similar to the Tallboy…hope it works good. Nice video guys!!
A lot of buzz around slacking out bikes, and it’s fine if you know what it’s good for. Where I live it’s ondulating terrain, and technical riding, where 67-65 dg hta is perfect, and a slacker hta would be like steering a barge in a small creek.
Real interesting to hear your impressions. I've already over forked my v3 5010 and have it in the low setting but am curious about adding an angleset to offset that slacker seat tube.
Talking ebikes here. I played around with the settings on my S5 Gen3 Turbo Levo and ended up going full slack on the front with the flip chip high on the back. 64 degree head angle. That was a good compromise for me between stability, ground clearance, and agility. The agility suffers a bit though and sometimes I have issues with tight steep uphill turns. Worth the tradeoff though. Previously I had a size large SC Heckler which was too small for me (6'2") but nimble. I put a 29 wheel on the front which helped the bike overall but made climbing a real challenge as it wanted to wheelie way too much. No doubt lifting the back would have helped. That, combined with the abrupt E8000 motor, had me getting stuck on climbs pretty often. In contrast the Turbo Levo climbs very very well with the setup I have. Any more slack would be too much for my riding.
One more thing you can do, if you’ve got ample clearance for your rear tire, is to use a shorter rear shock. I’ve done this on my cheapo Gravity FSX 275LTD and, along with a 1.5 degree angleset, slackened the head tube angle from a putrid 71 degrees to palatable 66.5. Time will tell how much that shock bottoms out and any other consequences that may arise, but it’s a fun experiment in the meantime. Next, I might overfork and put the longer shock back on-or not-and see how it goes.
Not for tight cornering, (with out a berm). I have a vintage Ti frame Nuke Proof bike, (71 degree head angle I believe), and no modern bike is going to get inside of it on a corner. You would be more comfortable on a down hill though, even sitting on your seat. Fork action also suffers with that much slack, and there are more bending forces where more sliding would occur with steeper angles. That is why most Harley chopper motorcycles use a springer front suspension instead of a telescopic fork.
You should mention that you can add an angle adjust set to achieve the slacker hta without effecting the sta and add a lower headset cup between the headtube and fork crown to bring the front end back up. Basically saving you the cost of the new air spring while maintaining the bikes original geo with a slacker hta.
Very good topic. I would like to thank you for detailed explanation. I have a downhill bike and it came already with 3 headsets which have different angles. Therefore, I feel extremely safe because it is already provided by bike company, don’t I? It is Bergamont Straitline Team 2018 with flip chip tech.
75% of the riders out there don't have descents more than 1-2 minutes, so super slack bikes don't equate to better performance in those environments. I still ride a Stumpy 29er w a 51mm offset --68 degree head angle. It is perfect for riding in the midwset with way more climbing than descending.
@@bikersedge Dude, I almost moved to Durango 20 years ago. I regret it daily. Now, with wife and kids we can't move away from grandparents and their friends. I suppose the terrain out West would draw me to a more modern geo, but bikes have been very capable for a long time. Still love my light nimble 2013 Stumpy Elite 29. It is an alloy frame, with carbon cranks and bars... with tube. tools, water bottle, and frame pump, it is sub 30 lbs and 140/130 travel. It would be a downcountry bike by today's standard, That is what most people need imo.
You had to call out my Ibis Ripley as the perfect bike to slack out... Figuring out my budget now haha! Love the advice of doing both at once, now just have to talk with my LBS about my options
@@bikersedge what penalties do you see? I have an altitude as my main rig, but, jsut sold my ripmo and wanted to get a ripley.. over fork and angleset and use it as my longer ride bike
You'll see the same penalties that we cover in the video - slower handling and longer wheelbase. Great for the DH, but they can kill some of the poppy and nimble character of a bike.
I took a Spot Rollik and added a -2 headset and a +10mm fork. Preserved almost all the geometry numbers accept the head angle which went from 67 to about 64.5. Loved it but it was noticeably floppier on tight climbs.
Good thinking with over forking in conjunction with the angle adjust. I noticed my Rise got a bit floppy too. I guess there are always going to be drawbacks
I just switched to a Ripley AF, my only the complaint is the number of pedal strikes I’m getting. Not sure if I should go up to a 140 air spring or put 165/170 cranks on vs the 175 that came stock. I love the way the bike does everything else so I’m hesitant to mess with the geo.
Very interesting indeed. I over forked my SantaCruz Heckler MX (XT version) with an Ohlins 36RXF air (150mm). I slightly lowered the handlebar. It feels a little bit more stable in steep descent. But I'm curious to know what you think about this. By the way congratulations (from France) for your impressive and very useful reviews. Thank you.
I have a Izzo Blaze which has a 140mm fork instead of 130mm. I just installed Wolftooth 10mm extension too to get rid of the knockblock. The wolftooth extension makes the headtube angle .5 degree slacker. Not sure how much slacker it makes the seat tube angle though. Have yet to ride it with extension.
Since the angleset is "lowering" the bike wouldn't it also steepen the seatpsot angle?. This could be a huge benefit on older GEO bikes that have slack seatpost angles such as the older Trance/Reign
God! My bike is old! One of the OG 29ers, It's a 2005 Gary Fisher Paragon hardtail with a headtube angle of 71 degrees. I love that old girl but I think it's time for a new bike.
Interesting conversation for sure. I have Wolf's tooth 1deg headset I've pulled off of frame I'm selling. I now find myself stuck trying to figure out what bike to install the angleset on now...my Ripley V4 or Ripmo AF. Ripley is already running 140mm Fox 36 so I don't know if i wanna further slacken it, bike feels great (could it feel even better with -1 HTA?) Ripmo AF feels good too, running stock 160mm. I'm leaning towards throwing it on the Ripmo AF. Would appreciate some perspective on this.
Surely on a mobility bike you dont need to worry about the bikes geometry and setup on the climbs as much as a mountain biker would? I have spoken to a fair few people who have said that the ideal mobility bike would basically be almost a DH bike with a dropper post and a motor etc because they put in so much additional power that it massively compensates for pedalling position etc.
i'm planning to change my fork(rigid) to a suspension fork. currently my bike setup is 69er mullet (26er frame). coz when i'm riding sometimes my foot sings in the front tire. That's the reason why i wanna change the rigid fork into a suspension fork. what travel fork should i be using? so it will be a little bit slacker at the same time it won't destroy the geometry. thanks!!
There is merit to changing the geo. I believe there is a fine line between confirmation bias and actually feeling the improvement of the change. "That upgrade from SLX to XT REALLY makes me a better rider." Really?
Geo can make a huge change to how your bike rides. Upgrading your drivetrain on the other hand.... I can't tell a difference. Especially when it comes down to what actually matters on the bike.
@@bikersedge I come from old school geo in the 90's. What we have now is far more FUN to ride and goes down hill better too. Can't even believe how good droppers make a bike feel. I wonder what big breakthrough will happen next on the MTB scene? Great Video BTW. Your content is incredible! Its even better that you are local and I know many of the trails you ride.
I added 10mm to my fork along with a 1 degree angle adjust headset, but I went with the combo because I’m running it on my hardtail (went from 120 to 130mm). My worry with the hardtail was that adding to the fork would actually steepen the HA as you go through the travel, so the idea with the -1 degree to slacken the head angle is to help counteract that a bit. Still haven’t had a chance to take it on a proper ride since making the change a week ago but looking forward to seeing how it handles some more technical trails!
I enjoyed your opinions, but I just don't agree with "modern geometry" either with Mt. Bikes or Motocross bikes (too tall and bars too far forward). The effects you mention are true, and I know it depends on where you ride, and how you ride, (I suspect a slacker head angle will allow you to be a more lazy rider). But you are basically showing a difference between a Chopped out Harley, and a Motocross bike. More stability with slacker is true, (like a chopper), but even with my 1995 Nuke Proof Ti bike (71 head angle I believe), I have never had what is called "head shake" on a rough downhill, (where the head angle is so steep, the bars violently swing from back and forth from left to right.). Many angles can handle a nice radius berm corner well, but try to cut the flat inside line and you will see the steeper angle offers you more line choices. The slack angle also lays the forks down more, so you will get more bending forces instead of sliding action of the forks, (why choppers do not use telescopic forks). I can see a slacker angle being better for downhill racing, but none of these "modern bikes" are going to cut an inside line like my 1995 Nuke Proof (back when they were made in Michigan. I used to work there). I don't like the modern Motocross bike set up, (cant feel the corners for example, with the high/forward/freestyle bar set up they use today), and I don't care for "modern thinking" for Mt. Bikes. In fact, in every industry, I think we were sharper people one generation ago. It is a fact that intellect, with our garbage education system, is on the decline, and we have entered an era of irrational thinking, so we just do what everybody else is doing even if it is not a improvement in reality. How is your math from our schools today? We really can't figure much out with out good math. I am glad I picked up a Trek Marlin 7 with a 69.5 deg head tube angle and 4" travel forks, (although 30lbs is a pig compared to my 22lb Nuke Proof, and top speed of a single ring is pathetic). Until it "head shakes", (and it won't), I have no reason to slack off. Just because everybody else is doing it, is not a valid reason for me.
@earthsurferusa.This is how i feel. My Yeti bigtop has a 70 hta. It rides great. I get tired of slacker is better for everything. So now i need a new bike bs.
How about a Giant Trance 2 27.5 (2015), worth doing anything with that or just getting a newer bike? My version has the old 32 Fox 140mm fork. Did upgrade it with flat pedals, dropper and 1x10 but now wondering is 7y old is too old or worth upgrading given the market at the moment?
If you use an angle adjust in addition to overforking, wouldn’t that make the head tube angle even more slack than just the headset change? Why not counteract the lower bar height with slightly higher rise bars?
Hey guys I have a giant trance 29 3...with 130 mm travel up front and 115 in the rear..I'm on the heavy side and want more travel up front...how much u think I can getaway with??
I live in Michigan all the trails are flat n tight so 67 for full suspension n 65 for hardtail is best . I tried slacker bikes here in Michigan but didnt liked it .
So what was the final head tube angle on the rise? Did you go with an angle set and a longer air shaft? Are you thinking off increasing the rear travel with a longer stroke shock. I have a Rise but I think it would invalidate the warranty. Thanks for the. Review
We couldn’t get a super exact measurement but it ended up being around 64° with the Slackr and a 160mm air spring. I’d say plus or minus .3 ish degrees. I haven’t considered changing the rear travel. I think if you’re going that far you may as well just buy the right bike in the first place rather than trying to turn a bike into something it’s not.
If you read their article about how your geo changes they talk about how the front end of the bike drops. It’s impossible for it not to with how these angle sets work.
Would this work? A 29er with 140back and 150front travel, 66° headset angle. Replace the backwheel with a 27,5" wheel to make it mullet and add 10mm more travel with a new front fork 160mm to increase the bb height a bit. Head angle would end up at 64.5. Smaller rider on a 29er wanting to try a mullet on a 29er Would making it more slacker and enduro safe at the same time destroy the bike or is this an option?
Any long term thoughts on best combo for Rise? Thinking of 1 degree slackR and 160mm fork for my rise. Love the bike but think it could benefit with a little more for what I ride. cheers
I don’t think orbea recommends running a 160mm fork. You might need to check that it won’t get you into warranty issues. If not, 160 with the Slackr could be great.
I wish bikes came stock with a head tube adjuster. Just like many are coming with a flipchip. They could limit the range of frames and create 1 frame with infinite adjustability.
Not sure. I'm not familiar with that bike. If you feel it needs it and it wouldn't alter the geometry in ways you wouldn't enjoy, then I'd say go for it.
I have a rise m20 with the 140mm fox forks, they don’t seem to handle it when it gets rough. Would I be better putting the m10 150mm forks on to sort this out it Rockshox Lyrik select 150mm ? Cheers
As a Ripley owner, I love the idea of an slacker HTA, but I don’t as well. I feel that I ride that bike too hard as it is. Giving me more encouragement to ride that thing harder is going to end in $$$ catastrophic failure. The bike is spot on for what was designed to be. If I have to over fork it and slacken it, maybe I should have bout the Ripmo. But I could totally see this on an older Tallboy or even current Hightower. This SC frames are stout!
I’m a big believer in buying the right bike in the first place. It seems silly to try to turn a bike into something it’s not. That said a degree or so of head tube angle on certain bikes makes a lot of sense to me.
Hi Guys! I have a 2014 Blur TR with a 68 degree head angle. Would it work out well to change my head tube angle and also over fork? Can I even get the parts to do that for such an old bike?
Just picked up a Giant Reign e+ and because of winter I haven't done any riding on it yet but I'm going to start at the high setting and that is already at 64.5 and thats insane at my riding experience level. Will I want to put it in the low setting at 63.7? that seems like a difficult number to get around switchbacks.
You’re not wrong in thinking that. I ride a Sentinel with a 63.6° HTA. Most of our trails out here are pretty open but it can’t give me a tough time on really tight stuff.
@@bikersedge I got a medium with 105 headtube lenght per the website. This puts me on the Bravo kit 1.4 slack. Should I opt for the IS41 or IS42? Thanks
To be honest I don't know on that one. I would have to think it has an effect. Just not sure what it is. I think it gets complicated when you start taking into account the trail measurement.
Over forking is not viable for tsller riders. Side note the angle adjust is cool but imagine riding a purpose built slack bike already where the geo comes dialed for climbing as well. (V2 sentinal)
I’m 100% with you on buying the right bike in the first place. That’s always going to be the best way to go. I’m a tall guy with legs up to my armpits and I think on the right bike, over forking works just fine.
Did you have to modify/remove any material from the frame of the Rise to fit the Slack-r, or was it plug and play? I have considered to do the same on mine… TIA
It drops right in. It basically takes the place of your normal headset bearing in the frame with the slackr bearing now being above and below your head tube.
It's awesome for that bike. Especially with the progression flip chip. you can put it in the most progressive setting and get a bit more bottom out resistance even with the coil .
I have the 7 gen 2. I am keeping the 69.5 head angle. I might was a couple degrees slacker for fast and rough downhill racing, but I say the steeper angle is better everywhere else for cornering, and plenty stable if you are not too lazy to get off the seat for rearward weighting. I am not a fan of 29" wheels either, (not as good for cornering), or the 1 chain ring drive (pathetic top speed). I guess i am not a fan of "modern thinking", because I don't think we think as well as we use to. We should sue our schools. They need a good "class action law suit". I say your Marlin is about perfect for the head angle. If the bars shake out of your hands on a rough downhill, then slack it a bit. But they won't. Maybe if you are sitting on the seat.
Do you loose reach when using an angel set? I know u loose mabe 5mm givw or take over forking by 10mm. I would think if you did both you would loose quite a bit no?
You do lose some reach when you over fork because you're lifting the front of the bike up (bringing it closer to the BB). The angleset in theory should do the opposite because it's lowering the front end. Now, the distance to the handlebars is going to be shorter than before, especially when doing both.
@@bikersedge gotcha if you do both they should offset but each bike / situation will very. But there will be a slight shortening of reach but probably not noticed 👍
Yeah they should offset each other in terms of reach. In terms of distance to the handlebars they’re going to compound though. That measurement will get shorter.
Slightly off topic but what do you guys think of hardtail party’s recent video on bikes manufacturing geo numbers being falsely advertised? Would be cool if you do something similar
Haven’t seen it. It would be really tough to get accurate measurements without some sort of jig/complicated measuring device to hold the bike perfectly square and straight.
That video was eye-opening! The HTA on your bike that’s advertised as 64.5 degrees could really be 66.5 deg. Can’t really trust any of the numbers posted on the manufacturer’s geo charts!
@@bikersedge yeah…and there are other reasons why the numbers are off. Besides HTA, the Reach number can be off by 20mm, which is the difference between sizes. A Medium could be a Large or a Small! This emphasizes the importance of trying the actual bike in person if possible, or the buyer is going in blind!🫥
With that one you should be able to do a standard angle set. There are a ton of options. It’s always best to have your shop take a look to see which one you’ll need.
Maybe all Mountain bikes---Downcountry, Trail, All-Mountain, Enduro, except maybe XC bikes---should have a minimum geo of 77* STA and 64* HTA. Progressive geo works no matter the travel and it adds nothing to the cost of a bike. I would love to be able to buy a 120/120 travel Downcountry bike with 77/64 geo. If progressive geo works for an Enduro bike, why wouldn't work for a Downcountry bike?
Agreed. Although you do lose some of the quick and snappy handling characteristics when you go really slack. I can see a lot of people missing that of all trails bikes were 64°
Yea it seems to be that slacking out bikes and growing beards is a must do! to be Uber Cool. This is of course is taking over from riding extremely expensive EMTBs and handle bar moustaches.
Ive noticed a slim tyre citybike is a terrifying unstable mess at 70+kmh down a mountain road. Compared to a motorcycle. MTB are always slacker and longer. Hillbomb runs from roadies seem Limited by level of insanity/grip, not legpower. I suspect a very slack stable/stubborn full suss mtb with slick fat tyres(Schwalbe Supermoto?)and a longer lower stem and lots of air in the suspension would be much better. Any of you ever tried? Anyone ever tried? My idea of a perfect Roadbike is clearly different. I havent dealt with a slack bike but i don't get the problem at least on road, with a stubborn bike.
I'm surprised you expected "heat" for this content. I mean, it's not like you're suggesting these steep seat tube angles & long reaches are putting MTBers in TT positions.
I don't think your considerations about front end height are logical? With a fully integrated headset the Slack-R angle adjuster adds 10mm between the fork and the bottom of the headtube (effectively lifting the front end by about 9.1mm if you would have kept the 65° and disregarded the slackening). But including the slackening, if your fork is about 590 mm long (160 mm Fox) and your head angle is 65°, your headtube will be about 914.7mm from the ground (including half of the height of a 29" tyre). If you slacken this to 63.5° and take into account the additional 10mm (in your "fork length") on account of the Slack-R spacer/cup, your headtube should be about 917.0mm from the ground (or 916.0mm for 63.3° etc.). So your front end in this case should have gotten taller. There are some minor simplifications to this calculation but the fact is that by using Slack-R on integrated headsets one should get a very small change in the height of the front end and generally the front end might even be taller rather than shorter (except for very slack angles).
Yeah. We already did a video on mullets. I also think that compromised the original bike too much to include it in a “slacker head tube” video. We did forget offset bushings though.
Great topic and great video but I'm confused do the bikes you tested on normally have a 8-10mm spacer/cup below the head tube? The Slack-R increases the height of an internal headset (and nobody told me this before I bought one). The lower bearing which is normally inside the head tube ends up about 14mm below the head tube. It increases the handlebar height on my Stumpjumper about 10mm. I ended up reducing the fork from 150mm to 140mm to compensate (which takes away 0.5 degrees of the angle).
They don't normally have a spacer below the head tube. Even with the added height from the Slackr, our bikes dropped 11 and 12mm. Without the Slacker (traditional angle adjust headset) the drop would be even bigger.
@@bikersedge something's not adding up (pulls out geometry book). If you drop the angle of a 150mm fork from 66 to 64 degrees the handlebars drop 3.2mm, assuming all other things being constant. From 64 to 62 it's a 3.3mm drop.
We didn’t measure from the bars. The bars add one more variable to the equation. Measured from the bottom of the head tube to the floor. Zachs bike had a 170mm fork with a 1.6 mm change and mine had a 160mm fork with a 1.5mm change. Also keep in mind this was with a tape measure and a bike as vertical and square to the floor as we could get it. I would imagine there’s a large margin for error in our measuring. From all that I’ve read, each degree of change in HTA will kick the front wheel out by about 10-15mm depending on the length of the fork. Say at 65° a pretty substantial amount of that change comes from the vertical component of the HTA. With 1.6 degrees on a 170mm fork you’re probably looking at around 30 ish millimeters longer on the wheelbase. A significant chunk of that is going to be vertical drop. Makes sense that the head tube gets lower.
@@bikersedge I found where 9point8 actually provides an example. A 1.5 degree kit on a 2019 Tallboy Large, increases the BB 2mm, increases the stack (and increases the vertical height of the original headtube) and decreases reach. This matches what I measured and felt after I installed it on a 2020 Stumpjumper and I reduced my fork travel in order to avoid slacking out my seat angle too much. If you're handlebars were lower after you installed the only possibility is that you changed the number of spacers under your stem (by more than 10mm). The Works headset on my Giant Trance 29 does not have this problem - the head angle gets slacker, the seat angle gets steeper, the BB drops a few mm and you can fit a bigger fork without making the bad effects of the Slack-R even worse.
Again we are measuring from the bottom of the head tube not the bars. Spacer stacks don’t have anything to do with it. We didn’t measure BB height either. I did some simple trig and came up with an 8mm drop in height (fairly close to what our measurements confirm) That doesn’t include any complications from fork offset or anything beyond a simple triangle. I don’t profess to be a bike engineer or mathematician but I do know that our measurements showed a significant drop in the distance between the head tube and the floor as well as a noticeable difference on the trail. Each bike is going to be a bit different. The Tallboy example wouldn’t apply here because that fork is significantly shorter than the forks we were using for our tests.
*Looks for spy cameras around house* It's like you guys were spying on me and saw what I was literally just trying to figure out. I was contemplating the effects of head angelset on an SC Hightower(if even possible) and whether it would add any value. Like even a half degree fro. 65.2 to 64.7.... 1)What are your thoughts on that and 2)is there a standard formula for the change in overall wheelbase measure for some [X] degree change in head angle? Like +/- X degree head angle change = +/- Y mm of wheelbase change....? Thanks for all of these vids. Big time valuable and influential!
We have spies everywhere!!! I think the Hightower would be great to make a bit slacker. I want to say it uses a standard press in headset so you would have a lot of options for angle adjust headsets. I'd probably look into over forking a bit too. You could probably do some fancy trigonometry to find how much longer the wheelbase gets. It's going to depend on the original HTA as well as how much slacker the bike gets. Keep in mind, all those numbers go out the window the second you sit on the bike and sag into the travel .
Why does everyone care about going down so fast? Why not chill and enjoy it, to me they just suppress it... you float over everything then you have a crappy climbing rig..
I find the term "outdated geometry" laughable. How long will it take mountain bike manufacturers to get it right? We pay almost as much as a dirt bike for a MTB, but the geometry of a dirt bike doesn't get "outdated." It seems like the only reason is to sell more bikes and for hipsters to make UA-cam videos.
@@bikersedgeI wonder about incrementalism- if that's even a word, though. If the grim donut is nearly as good as they say. Or the weird thing with super high bars via riser stem. Perhaps it's time to just try. .and make it. But there comes my slight suspicion theyll just go in baby steps so they got something new to sell for years. I believe it's a thing in other Industries too. Megapixels only skyrocketed after Sony Made 36mp sensors, before that 16,20,24 was it for a long time. SuperSport motorcycles slowly got from 170 to 180 HP until BMW pushed into the market with a bang much like Sony. Immediately everyone tried to catch up to full 200hp n soon got there
Totally agree that making an older bike with slightly outdated geometry slacker can give it new life. I have a 2019 canyon spectral with a 66 degree head tube angle. I swapped out the stock 27.5" 160mm fork and wheel with a 29" 150mm fork and wheel to make it a mullet and slacken it out (essentially over-forked it by swapping to the 29" wheel). It made the bike around 1-1.5 degrees slacker and made it so much fun. I kept the 27.5" wheel and fork and swap it back from time to time. Now its like having 2 bikes in 1. Great videos - keep it up! Cheers!
Thats a solid way to make a bike slacker!
And you have a seat tube angle that makes you pilot the bike from the trunk while seated
@@Coerced or you could just slide your saddle a few mm forward and be right back where you were 👌🏻
Thats making rhe most of a single bike👍👍👍👍😎😎😎
I put a -1.5 angle set on my 2018 Yeti SB 5.5 and it was a game changer. Added a coil with a progressive spring and now it’s a full on ripper! The seat tube angle is steeper, wheelbase longer and BB lower. All things needed to give it more modern geo and keep me rolling for another 2 years. Super stoked
Yes. (For me 😁)
On my ‘16 134 I put a -2deg angleset on + a 160 fork (from 140) and the bike went from 68 to 65 HTA. With minimal change in BB height. HUGE difference in downhill capability. With a 125mm head tube the thing is overbuilt and I have zero concerns about durability. I did have to run a 50mm stem to keep front from washing out constantly on flat turns (I crashed a lot before that). This also lead to me thinking about going back to 140 travel in the front but a 29er wheel. This would keep the ATC of my current setup but the dynamic ride quality might be different… Jury’s still out on that one, but I think it’s one of the few ways you could mullet a 27.5 bike without the huge change in Geo.
I just did that on my 2018 Santa Cruz Hightower. Head tube around 64.5-65 and the seat tube around 75 (76 with saddle forward). Running 29 F/R with 150 mm fork. I wanted to extend the life of the bike until I'm ready to move on, but in this setup it feels much more stable downhill and it still climbs well. Plus I can still use my 27.5 wheels or set it up as mullet
what angleset did you use? I am looking to do the exact same thing on my 2018 hightower LT
@@Dirtymutt9 it's called 9.8, from Canada. Depending on the head tube length you get about 1.5-2.0 degrees slacker.
I done it with a orbea Rise, 170 travel in the front and 160 in the rear. ( 216x63 shock with one bishing = shock length effectiv 214mm ) and yes I love it and make a better bike for me. I will agree your statement 💪
Researching this for my Rise
Yep but when you keep the old shock and have an extra bushing, you suddenly have 2 bikes. one for longs flatter days, and one for rough DH. It takes 10 minutes to switch between them if you have a fork you can adjust the travel on without taking it apart (like a Mezzer).
I did 160/160. Love it
@@UncleTonyL i plan to get one and run it 160/160.what shock you use? mullet also?
@@dft1 i used dhx2 with mullet yes
This was exactly the kind of information I needed. My trail bike has a 130mm fork with a 66.5 degree head angle. I am not the most confident descender therefore I am going to increase the travel to 140mm and slacken out the angle. I just have to decide on if to go with 1 or 1.5 degrees.
Mulleting, over forking, angle set... Will all change the handling of your steed.
For mind, over forking isn't as drastic as everyone makes out.
Sure the HTA will obviously get slacker. But, aspects of the bike that are further away from the site of change are less affected.
I've generally over forked all my rigs.
My '17 Nukeproof 290 hard tail was designed around 120-130mm of travel.
I set it up on a 140mm fork and it's killer.
My Banshee Phantom V3 was designed around 130mm of travel... again, I've gone for 140 up front.
I've also mulleted it out, which has slackened everything even more so.
The Phantom V3 comes with adjustable dropouts... in the low mode the bike felt a bit off... however, in the high mode it feels just right.
I've also just built up a '21 Trek Remedy w/ a 170mm fork, in the low mode. I've also upsized to XL from my usual large sizing.
The bike absolutely rips!!
Still has the well renowned Remedy 'Pop', but is also stable at speed through the chop.
I think you guys nailed it. Back in the day I rode for a couple different bike manufactures and kept saying, we need more head angle, we need more head angle. But this was for strictly downhill racing. I don't really remember what the number I requested was, but I think it was 64 degrees.
Crazy that the all mountain bikes are that slack these days.
@@bikersedge ,....Yep, it is crazy. If you find an old picture of an old downhill bike (the first couple of generations) you can see how steep their head angles were. I think something like 68 degrees was the norm. Guys used to go over the bars all the time. I raced the Deer Valley norba nationals a few times on those crazy bikes.
Hey Guys! So I actually steepened by Sentinel V2 by 1 degree using a Wolf Tooth Geoshift Headset to get a 64.6 degree HA. I found with stock 63.6 HA I was understeering a bit in corners and it seemed a bit cumbersome for the Vermont trails where I ride. I looked at a lot of different bike geometry (Yeti SB150, Ibis Ripmo AF, etc.) to get comparison and I felt 64.6 made sense for 150/160 travel. I think how you fit on the bike makes a difference as well, I'm 5'11" on a size large whereas someone 6'1" would be positioned more over the front with longer torso, legs, and arms. Also, I may put in a 170 air shaft this summer for bike park days and effectively make the HA 64.1 degrees.
Interesting. Personally I love my sentinel exactly how it is. Different strokes for different folks.
I'm ready for a new New England trail bike, upgrading from my 2017 140/140 Intense Primer which is perfect for MA/NH techy awfulness. Problem is, everything is noticeably longer, slacker and lower which is the opposite of what I need for switchbacks, rock gardens and tight gnar. For me, the problem with newer bikes is more than just HTA.
Sounds like you just need to move out west.
@@bikersedge If only the saltwater fishing was better in CO.
Well there is that.
I did a 1.5 degree 9 point 8 slack-r kit on my Santa Cruz chameleon, and overworked it to a 150MM ROCKSHOX Domain , so fare its been very fun!!!
I have a 2022 Chameleon mullet that I put a RS Pike 140 Ultimate on, and thinking about the 9point8 slacker as well. Do you have the newer version (65deg HTA) or the older version?
I have messed around with this quite a bit and found over forking plus one or two offset bushings depending on the bike is the way to go in most situations. Less extreme head angle adjust and allows you to tune the bike a bit more how you want it. Plus they are $20. Thanks for another great video 🤙
We definitely forgot about offset bushings. They’re a less common solution for us to see at the shop. Still a good option.
I ran the offset bushings on my 2020 Occam XL (150mm fork) nearly all season but swapped back to the original bushings in the fall and immediately liked the latter better. With the stock bushings this bike felt more nimble and poppy. Riding here in Norway it’s mostly all natural stuff with technical climbs. Guess the terrain is key. As you say, offset bushings is a cheap way to test things without much hassle.
I am looking to go much the opposite direction. I ride in Western Oklahoma and bomber hills are simply not found here. I really like the steel head angle of an XC bike with the suspension of a trail bike. Going to use an angle adjusting headset to get there. Same path, for a different destination!
My wife’s ripley rolls on a 140 fox 36, which ups the a2c something like 15mm from stock. 65.75 hta is a lot more reasonable these days for a trail bike in moderate terrain than stock 66.5. Feels so much less sketchy :).
That’s Just to second your point on the ripley. I’m sure whenever the v5 comes out it will update to closer to the afs geo.
That’s a good setup for that bike.
I have a Litespeed Pinhoti boost (V2) hardtail that I have been riding overforked for a couple of years with 130mm front travel instead of 120. However, this longer fork than stock slackened the already slack STA. I swapped the fork for a 120 which fixed the slack STA, but steepened the HTA to 69.5 degrees and shortened the wheelbase - bike is super nervous feeling now. Next step is the addition of a -1 degree angleset to get me back to the longer wheelbase and slacker HTA I had with the 130 but with the secondary benefit of steepening the STA slightly. Hopefully, it won't lower the BB too much.
I did this by replacing my 160 fork for a 180, but totally ruined handling, to fix it I inserted maximum amount of tokens and set up sag as if it is a 170.
I would like to know if someone has experimented with "over shocking" the rear, and play with offset bushings 😁
Love your videos, keep up the great work!
How did it ruin your handling? Kind of getting ready to do the same.
Very interesting guys! I really like my Transition Sentinel that has a steep head tube angle of 63.6 One thing about that bike, it's great on everyday trails but when you get into some narly terrain it eats it up so good.
Since when is that a steep hta? 😂
@@chriskrajewski6568 I meant slack😂😂😂
Awesome video, I have been playing with the idea of putting an angle set on my 27.5 Trance (67HTA/73.5 STA). I think this will bump up the geo a bit to more modern standards. I really like that it steepens the STA as well it seems kind of a win/win.
Yes I have the trance 27.5 2021 am not happy with the steep head angle. How are you going to change it?
@@blakelynton7072 hey! I saw your comment on my other video. I got a works angle adjust headset to slacken the Trance 2* and then I bumped up the travel on my Suntour Aion fork by 10mm so essentially another .5* on the whole bike. The final HTA is 64.5 and STA would be 75.
Thats exactly what i am doing to my spectral cfon 2024👌
Nice discussion, thanks for the insight.
Glad you liked it!
I'm happy where my Ripmo and Ripley AF are at. If I need to plow the world, I've got the Ripmo. If I need to zip and pop, I've got the Ripley AF
Perfect combo right there.
I have a SC 5010 V3. Upped the 130 fork to 140 with an air shaft.
I noticed very little change in the handling. (I’ve always ridden in the High setting.)
Thinking of just putting 2 degree on my 2017-2019 intense primer and keeping it at 140mm… thinking the primer is similar to the Tallboy…hope it works good. Nice video guys!!
A lot of buzz around slacking out bikes, and it’s fine if you know what it’s good for. Where I live it’s ondulating terrain, and technical riding, where 67-65 dg hta is perfect, and a slacker hta would be like steering a barge in a small creek.
That’s exactly why we made this video.
Real interesting to hear your impressions. I've already over forked my v3 5010 and have it in the low setting but am curious about adding an angleset to offset that slacker seat tube.
If you try it, let us know how it goes.
I have a 5010 v3, with 150 travel up front and am also thinking of doing this, let me kniw if you think its worth it
Any news? Thanks!
very informative and well produced video. Thank you.
Glad you liked it!
I threw an angleset on my switchblade, it felt great, but eventually just bought a sentinel, bear or both worlds 😁 Also, cheers from an another Utahn!
Nice! Sentinel is still in my top 3 favorite bikes.
Talking ebikes here. I played around with the settings on my S5 Gen3 Turbo Levo and ended up going full slack on the front with the flip chip high on the back. 64 degree head angle. That was a good compromise for me between stability, ground clearance, and agility. The agility suffers a bit though and sometimes I have issues with tight steep uphill turns. Worth the tradeoff though. Previously I had a size large SC Heckler which was too small for me (6'2") but nimble. I put a 29 wheel on the front which helped the bike overall but made climbing a real challenge as it wanted to wheelie way too much. No doubt lifting the back would have helped. That, combined with the abrupt E8000 motor, had me getting stuck on climbs pretty often. In contrast the Turbo Levo climbs very very well with the setup I have. Any more slack would be too much for my riding.
the way you describe is actually 63.5 HA
One more thing you can do, if you’ve got ample clearance for your rear tire, is to use a shorter rear shock. I’ve done this on my cheapo Gravity FSX 275LTD and, along with a 1.5 degree angleset, slackened the head tube angle from a putrid 71 degrees to palatable 66.5. Time will tell how much that shock bottoms out and any other consequences that may arise, but it’s a fun experiment in the meantime. Next, I might overfork and put the longer shock back on-or not-and see how it goes.
63.5 degree for trail is what i'm riding right now. it's great.
Nice.
Not for tight cornering, (with out a berm). I have a vintage Ti frame Nuke Proof bike, (71 degree head angle I believe), and no modern bike is going to get inside of it on a corner. You would be more comfortable on a down hill though, even sitting on your seat. Fork action also suffers with that much slack, and there are more bending forces where more sliding would occur with steeper angles. That is why most Harley chopper motorcycles use a springer front suspension instead of a telescopic fork.
You should mention that you can add an angle adjust set to achieve the slacker hta without effecting the sta and add a lower headset cup between the headtube and fork crown to bring the front end back up. Basically saving you the cost of the new air spring while maintaining the bikes original geo with a slacker hta.
While that would work you may as well get the benefit of more fork travel.
Great info. Zen trail is one of my favorite local trails. Challenging and fun.
Such a good trail.
Very good topic. I would like to thank you for detailed explanation. I have a downhill bike and it came already with 3 headsets which have different angles. Therefore, I feel extremely safe because it is already provided by bike company, don’t I? It is Bergamont Straitline Team 2018 with flip chip tech.
75% of the riders out there don't have descents more than 1-2 minutes, so super slack bikes don't equate to better performance in those environments. I still ride a Stumpy 29er w a 51mm offset --68 degree head angle. It is perfect for riding in the midwset with way more climbing than descending.
Move to Utah. Our descents are way longer than 2 minutes.
@@bikersedge Dude, I almost moved to Durango 20 years ago. I regret it daily. Now, with wife and kids we can't move away from grandparents and their friends.
I suppose the terrain out West would draw me to a more modern geo, but bikes have been very capable for a long time. Still love my light nimble 2013 Stumpy Elite 29. It is an alloy frame, with carbon cranks and bars... with tube. tools, water bottle, and frame pump, it is sub 30 lbs and 140/130 travel. It would be a downcountry bike by today's standard, That is what most people need imo.
You had to call out my Ibis Ripley as the perfect bike to slack out... Figuring out my budget now haha! Love the advice of doing both at once, now just have to talk with my LBS about my options
We’ve done it to a couple of Ripleys now. Adds that little bit extra on the DH. It does come with some penalties though.
@@bikersedge what penalties do you see? I have an altitude as my main rig, but, jsut sold my ripmo and wanted to get a ripley.. over fork and angleset and use it as my longer ride bike
You'll see the same penalties that we cover in the video - slower handling and longer wheelbase. Great for the DH, but they can kill some of the poppy and nimble character of a bike.
I took a Spot Rollik and added a -2 headset and a +10mm fork. Preserved almost all the geometry numbers accept the head angle which went from 67 to about 64.5. Loved it but it was noticeably floppier on tight climbs.
Good thinking with over forking in conjunction with the angle adjust. I noticed my Rise got a bit floppy too. I guess there are always going to be drawbacks
I just switched to a Ripley AF, my only the complaint is the number of pedal strikes I’m getting. Not sure if I should go up to a 140 air spring or put 165/170 cranks on vs the 175 that came stock. I love the way the bike does everything else so I’m hesitant to mess with the geo.
Very interesting indeed. I over forked my SantaCruz Heckler MX (XT version) with an Ohlins 36RXF air (150mm). I slightly lowered the handlebar. It feels a little bit more stable in steep descent. But I'm curious to know what you think about this. By the way congratulations (from France) for your impressive and very useful reviews. Thank you.
I have a Izzo Blaze which has a 140mm fork instead of 130mm. I just installed Wolftooth 10mm extension too to get rid of the knockblock. The wolftooth extension makes the headtube angle .5 degree slacker. Not sure how much slacker it makes the seat tube angle though. Have yet to ride it with extension.
Since the angleset is "lowering" the bike wouldn't it also steepen the seatpsot angle?. This could be a huge benefit on older GEO bikes that have slack seatpost angles such as the older Trance/Reign
It does make the seat tube steeper. It can help a bit there.
God! My bike is old! One of the OG 29ers, It's a 2005 Gary Fisher Paragon hardtail with a headtube angle of 71 degrees.
I love that old girl but I think it's time for a new bike.
It’s time to move on.
I want to do this to my 2012 carbon S-works Epic 29er. Originally its a cross country bike. Now i want all downhill. 😁
At the end of the day an Epic is always going to be an XC bike. A little slacker HTA can help add some capability though.
Interesting conversation for sure. I have Wolf's tooth 1deg headset I've pulled off of frame I'm selling.
I now find myself stuck trying to figure out what bike to install the angleset on now...my Ripley V4 or Ripmo AF.
Ripley is already running 140mm Fox 36 so I don't know if i wanna further slacken it, bike feels great (could it feel even better with -1 HTA?)
Ripmo AF feels good too, running stock 160mm.
I'm leaning towards throwing it on the Ripmo AF.
Would appreciate some perspective on this.
Surely on a mobility bike you dont need to worry about the bikes geometry and setup on the climbs as much as a mountain biker would? I have spoken to a fair few people who have said that the ideal mobility bike would basically be almost a DH bike with a dropper post and a motor etc because they put in so much additional power that it massively compensates for pedalling position etc.
Not sure what a mobility bike is…
i'm planning to change my fork(rigid) to a suspension fork.
currently my bike setup is 69er mullet (26er frame). coz when i'm riding sometimes my foot sings in the front tire.
That's the reason why i wanna change the rigid fork into a suspension fork.
what travel fork should i be using? so it will be a little bit slacker at the same time it won't destroy the geometry.
thanks!!
There is merit to changing the geo. I believe there is a fine line between confirmation bias and actually feeling the improvement of the change. "That upgrade from SLX to XT REALLY makes me a better rider." Really?
Geo can make a huge change to how your bike rides. Upgrading your drivetrain on the other hand.... I can't tell a difference. Especially when it comes down to what actually matters on the bike.
@@bikersedge I come from old school geo in the 90's. What we have now is far more FUN to ride and goes down hill better too. Can't even believe how good droppers make a bike feel. I wonder what big breakthrough will happen next on the MTB scene? Great Video BTW. Your content is incredible! Its even better that you are local and I know many of the trails you ride.
Glad you like the videos!
I think the next huge innovation in MTB is going to be all the electronics. Sky’s the limit with that stuff.
I added 10mm to my fork along with a 1 degree angle adjust headset, but I went with the combo because I’m running it on my hardtail (went from 120 to 130mm). My worry with the hardtail was that adding to the fork would actually steepen the HA as you go through the travel, so the idea with the -1 degree to slacken the head angle is to help counteract that a bit. Still haven’t had a chance to take it on a proper ride since making the change a week ago but looking forward to seeing how it handles some more technical trails!
I enjoyed your opinions, but I just don't agree with "modern geometry" either with Mt. Bikes or Motocross bikes (too tall and bars too far forward). The effects you mention are true, and I know it depends on where you ride, and how you ride, (I suspect a slacker head angle will allow you to be a more lazy rider). But you are basically showing a difference between a Chopped out Harley, and a Motocross bike. More stability with slacker is true, (like a chopper), but even with my 1995 Nuke Proof Ti bike (71 head angle I believe), I have never had what is called "head shake" on a rough downhill, (where the head angle is so steep, the bars violently swing from back and forth from left to right.). Many angles can handle a nice radius berm corner well, but try to cut the flat inside line and you will see the steeper angle offers you more line choices. The slack angle also lays the forks down more, so you will get more bending forces instead of sliding action of the forks, (why choppers do not use telescopic forks). I can see a slacker angle being better for downhill racing, but none of these "modern bikes" are going to cut an inside line like my 1995 Nuke Proof (back when they were made in Michigan. I used to work there). I don't like the modern Motocross bike set up, (cant feel the corners for example, with the high/forward/freestyle bar set up they use today), and I don't care for "modern thinking" for Mt. Bikes. In fact, in every industry, I think we were sharper people one generation ago. It is a fact that intellect, with our garbage education system, is on the decline, and we have entered an era of irrational thinking, so we just do what everybody else is doing even if it is not a improvement in reality. How is your math from our schools today? We really can't figure much out with out good math. I am glad I picked up a Trek Marlin 7 with a 69.5 deg head tube angle and 4" travel forks, (although 30lbs is a pig compared to my 22lb Nuke Proof, and top speed of a single ring is pathetic). Until it "head shakes", (and it won't), I have no reason to slack off. Just because everybody else is doing it, is not a valid reason for me.
@earthsurferusa.This is how i feel. My Yeti bigtop has a 70 hta. It rides great. I get tired of slacker is better for everything. So now i need a new bike bs.
How about a Giant Trance 2 27.5 (2015), worth doing anything with that or just getting a newer bike? My version has the old 32 Fox 140mm fork. Did upgrade it with flat pedals, dropper and 1x10 but now wondering is 7y old is too old or worth upgrading given the market at the moment?
Hello, could someone tell me which angleset is compatible with the orbea rise m10? Thank you!
If you use an angle adjust in addition to overforking, wouldn’t that make the head tube angle even more slack than just the headset change? Why not counteract the lower bar height with slightly higher rise bars?
Yeah you’d get even slacker. That’s why I’d do a 0.5-1 degree angle set and a 10mm jump in the fork. Or like you said use a riser bar.
Hey guys I have a giant trance 29 3...with 130 mm travel up front and 115 in the rear..I'm on the heavy side and want more travel up front...how much u think I can getaway with??
I live in Michigan all the trails are flat n tight so 67 for full suspension n 65 for hardtail is best . I tried slacker bikes here in Michigan but didnt liked it .
For us folks with steep climbs the biggest issue I face is the seat tube being too slack once you slack out the front
I'm with you on that. Especially as a tall guy I'm pretty sensitive to a slack STA.
@@bikersedge you can only push the saddle up so far 😭
Got to get one of those old banana seats I guess.
So what was the final head tube angle on the rise? Did you go with an angle set and a longer air shaft? Are you thinking off increasing the rear travel with a longer stroke shock. I have a Rise but I think it would invalidate the warranty. Thanks for the. Review
We couldn’t get a super exact measurement but it ended up being around 64° with the Slackr and a 160mm air spring. I’d say plus or minus .3 ish degrees.
I haven’t considered changing the rear travel. I think if you’re going that far you may as well just buy the right bike in the first place rather than trying to turn a bike into something it’s not.
Great video, on 9.8 site the Tallboy with 1.4 degree headset is raised but your bikes fall, why is that ?
If you read their article about how your geo changes they talk about how the front end of the bike drops. It’s impossible for it not to with how these angle sets work.
Hi, great video. Thanks. I am buying a Rise and wanted to know if you overforked the bike is the 140mm rear travel still sufficient?
Yes. If you’re using the Rise as it’s intended 140 is plenty.
How much did you gain in wheelbase on those two bikes?
Would this work?
A 29er with 140back and 150front travel, 66° headset angle.
Replace the backwheel with a 27,5" wheel to make it mullet and add 10mm more travel with a new front fork 160mm to increase the bb height a bit.
Head angle would end up at 64.5.
Smaller rider on a 29er wanting to try a mullet on a 29er
Would making it more slacker and enduro safe at the same time destroy the bike or is this an option?
The problem with that is the chainstay doesn't get shorter so you don't get the full benefit of the MX setup.
Any long term thoughts on best combo for Rise? Thinking of 1 degree slackR and 160mm fork for my rise. Love the bike but think it could benefit with a little more for what I ride. cheers
I don’t think orbea recommends running a 160mm fork. You might need to check that it won’t get you into warranty issues. If not, 160 with the Slackr could be great.
I wish bikes came stock with a head tube adjuster. Just like many are coming with a flipchip. They could limit the range of frames and create 1 frame with infinite adjustability.
Yeah. Some have it with offset headsets and stuff. Kind of a cool idea. Flip chip basically accomplishes the same thing though.
What do you think putting slack head tube on Levo SL alloy comp?
Not sure. I'm not familiar with that bike. If you feel it needs it and it wouldn't alter the geometry in ways you wouldn't enjoy, then I'd say go for it.
I have a rise m20 with the 140mm fox forks, they don’t seem to handle it when it gets rough.
Would I be better putting the m10 150mm forks on to sort this out it Rockshox Lyrik select 150mm ? Cheers
I way prefer the Rise with the 150 fork.
As a Ripley owner, I love the idea of an slacker HTA, but I don’t as well. I feel that I ride that bike too hard as it is. Giving me more encouragement to ride that thing harder is going to end in $$$ catastrophic failure. The bike is spot on for what was designed to be. If I have to over fork it and slacken it, maybe I should have bout the Ripmo. But I could totally see this on an older Tallboy or even current Hightower. This SC frames are stout!
I’m a big believer in buying the right bike in the first place. It seems silly to try to turn a bike into something it’s not. That said a degree or so of head tube angle on certain bikes makes a lot of sense to me.
Well... don’t twist my arm too hard 😆 maybe I’ll have to try this out
Hi Guys! I have a 2014 Blur TR with a 68 degree head angle. Would it work out well to change my head tube angle and also over fork? Can I even get the parts to do that for such an old bike?
I’d consult with your local bike shop and see what they can do. It’s pretty likely they can make it happen.
Just picked up a Giant Reign e+ and because of winter I haven't done any riding on it yet but I'm going to start at the high setting and that is already at 64.5 and thats insane at my riding experience level. Will I want to put it in the low setting at 63.7? that seems like a difficult number to get around switchbacks.
You’re not wrong in thinking that. I ride a Sentinel with a 63.6° HTA. Most of our trails out here are pretty open but it can’t give me a tough time on really tight stuff.
@Bikersedge Can you please provide a specific link on which angle headset kit you got on your Orbea Rise please. Thanks
It’s the 9point8 Slackr Oscar.l for my XL Rise. You’ll want to verify that works with whatever size you’re on. They’re dependent on head tube length.
@@bikersedge I got a medium with 105 headtube lenght per the website. This puts me on the Bravo kit 1.4 slack. Should I opt for the IS41 or IS42? Thanks
According to the Orbea website it’s IS42
Is changing the fork offset affect the HTA also?
To be honest I don't know on that one. I would have to think it has an effect. Just not sure what it is. I think it gets complicated when you start taking into account the trail measurement.
I’m leaving my geo alone.
2019 Santa Cruz chameleon it’s got a great balance
I think it’s sad when people over Fork an already great handling Bike
Different strokes for different folks. On the right bike it’s a great alteration.
Over forking is not viable for tsller riders. Side note the angle adjust is cool but imagine riding a purpose built slack bike already where the geo comes dialed for climbing as well. (V2 sentinal)
I’m 100% with you on buying the right bike in the first place. That’s always going to be the best way to go.
I’m a tall guy with legs up to my armpits and I think on the right bike, over forking works just fine.
@@bikersedge haha really maybe its just me but being 6 "4 with a slack STA it really hurts my joints and makes me less upright
Did you have to modify/remove any material from the frame of the Rise to fit the Slack-r, or was it plug and play? I have considered to do the same on mine… TIA
It drops right in. It basically takes the place of your normal headset bearing in the frame with the slackr bearing now being above and below your head tube.
@@bikersedge thx! I’ve read that some bike frames may require some modification to make it drop in. Glad to hear the Rise frame is good!
Man I’d avoid doing that for sure. Sounds sketchy.
What angle set did you fit on the Rise?
I want to say it was Oscar that fit the head tube length on my XL rise.
How do you like the push coil on the 160e? Thinking about getting one for my bike - 160e.
It's awesome for that bike. Especially with the progression flip chip. you can put it in the most progressive setting and get a bit more bottom out resistance even with the coil .
How do you think it compares to the X2 the bike comes with?
Can you use a spacer to do this on a Marlin 6 gen 2?
Not sure I follow. A spacer below the head tube?
I have the 7 gen 2. I am keeping the 69.5 head angle. I might was a couple degrees slacker for fast and rough downhill racing, but I say the steeper angle is better everywhere else for cornering, and plenty stable if you are not too lazy to get off the seat for rearward weighting. I am not a fan of 29" wheels either, (not as good for cornering), or the 1 chain ring drive (pathetic top speed). I guess i am not a fan of "modern thinking", because I don't think we think as well as we use to. We should sue our schools. They need a good "class action law suit". I say your Marlin is about perfect for the head angle. If the bars shake out of your hands on a rough downhill, then slack it a bit. But they won't. Maybe if you are sitting on the seat.
Do you loose reach when using an angel set? I know u loose mabe 5mm givw or take over forking by 10mm. I would think if you did both you would loose quite a bit no?
You do lose some reach when you over fork because you're lifting the front of the bike up (bringing it closer to the BB). The angleset in theory should do the opposite because it's lowering the front end. Now, the distance to the handlebars is going to be shorter than before, especially when doing both.
@@bikersedge gotcha if you do both they should offset but each bike / situation will very. But there will be a slight shortening of reach but probably not noticed 👍
Yeah they should offset each other in terms of reach. In terms of distance to the handlebars they’re going to compound though. That measurement will get shorter.
@@bikersedge what headset is in the rise? Really thinking of getting one if I canuse another angelset that would not be so extreme.
A slack angle set will bring the bars closer. That’s what it does with the ride 9 on Rocky Mountains.
Slacker is better for me! currently running 62
I know your a Yeti dealer. Thoughts and surprised you didn't mention a Sb115. Slackr plus over forked to 140mm?
It's just not one that came to mind. I think most folks are trying to make that bike more XC if anything (as it's not the best trail bike)
@@bikersedge I find many are going in the opposite direction. It's a great bike and ride it more than my Sb150. Was curious as to your thoughts....🤘
Slightly off topic but what do you guys think of hardtail party’s recent video on bikes manufacturing geo numbers being falsely advertised? Would be cool if you do something similar
Haven’t seen it. It would be really tough to get accurate measurements without some sort of jig/complicated measuring device to hold the bike perfectly square and straight.
That video was eye-opening! The HTA on your bike that’s advertised as 64.5 degrees could really be 66.5 deg. Can’t really trust any of the numbers posted on the manufacturer’s geo charts!
@@leefunkera yeah that’s a good point. I’ve heard of “marketing numbers” being used. It’s tough to verify without some serious measuring equipment.
@@bikersedge yeah…and there are other reasons why the numbers are off.
Besides HTA, the Reach number can be off by 20mm, which is the difference between sizes. A Medium could be a Large or a Small! This emphasizes the importance of trying the actual bike in person if possible, or the buyer is going in blind!🫥
Putting 51 mm fork offset. Make the bike slacker ??
No. Offset won’t make it slacker. Just changes the trail measurement.
I wonder how 1 degree slacker would feel on Giant Reign Pro Advance
Try it and let us know how it goes. I bet it’s solid.
@@bikersedge which angle headset would you recommend best?
With that one you should be able to do a standard angle set. There are a ton of options. It’s always best to have your shop take a look to see which one you’ll need.
What about something like a cascade link?
From what I understand those try to maintain the original geo of the bike but add some travel and progressivity.
@@bikersedge on the SB130 it is meant to slacken it by 0.5 degree.
Oh that’s cool. Most of what I had seen tried to keep the geometry intact.
@@bikersedge thanks for the reply guys
Maybe all Mountain bikes---Downcountry, Trail, All-Mountain, Enduro, except maybe XC bikes---should have a minimum geo of 77* STA and 64* HTA. Progressive geo works no matter the travel and it adds nothing to the cost of a bike. I would love to be able to buy a 120/120 travel Downcountry bike with 77/64 geo. If progressive geo works for an Enduro bike, why wouldn't work for a Downcountry bike?
Agreed. Although you do lose some of the quick and snappy handling characteristics when you go really slack. I can see a lot of people missing that of all trails bikes were 64°
65.5 is perfect for a trail bike. 64 for enduro bike
I’ve got an enduro bike that’s 63. I think I’d pretty good. Different strokes for different folks.
Yeah. Give or take a degree of what i put is what I meant to say…
I just put a Durolux EQ 150 on my Occam and it feels perfect. Great fork by the way. I like it better than the fox factory 36.
I should be at 65 or 65.5 now
Yea it seems to be that slacking out bikes and growing beards is a must do! to be Uber Cool.
This is of course is taking over from riding extremely expensive EMTBs and handle bar moustaches.
Well call me uber cool then.
Which State/trail area is this?
St George UT
Ive noticed a slim tyre citybike is a terrifying unstable mess at 70+kmh down a mountain road. Compared to a motorcycle. MTB are always slacker and longer. Hillbomb runs from roadies seem Limited by level of insanity/grip, not legpower. I suspect a very slack stable/stubborn full suss mtb with slick fat tyres(Schwalbe Supermoto?)and a longer lower stem and lots of air in the suspension would be much better. Any of you ever tried? Anyone ever tried? My idea of a perfect Roadbike is clearly different. I havent dealt with a slack bike but i don't get the problem at least on road, with a stubborn bike.
I'm surprised you expected "heat" for this content. I mean, it's not like you're suggesting these steep seat tube angles & long reaches are putting MTBers in TT positions.
We’ve received plenty of heat about the mechanics of how the geo changes.
I don't think your considerations about front end height are logical? With a fully integrated headset the Slack-R angle adjuster adds 10mm between the fork and the bottom of the headtube (effectively lifting the front end by about 9.1mm if you would have kept the 65° and disregarded the slackening). But including the slackening, if your fork is about 590 mm long (160 mm Fox) and your head angle is 65°, your headtube will be about 914.7mm from the ground (including half of the height of a 29" tyre). If you slacken this to 63.5° and take into account the additional 10mm (in your "fork length") on account of the Slack-R spacer/cup, your headtube should be about 917.0mm from the ground (or 916.0mm for 63.3° etc.). So your front end in this case should have gotten taller. There are some minor simplifications to this calculation but the fact is that by using Slack-R on integrated headsets one should get a very small change in the height of the front end and generally the front end might even be taller rather than shorter (except for very slack angles).
I think you missed one other option. You can mullet the bike as well.
Yeah. We already did a video on mullets. I also think that compromised the original bike too much to include it in a “slacker head tube” video. We did forget offset bushings though.
How do I get my hands on that Transition hat? It is so sick! Thanks for always making great content.
Hit us up. We might have one. If not I’m sure they’ve got them on transitions website.
Great topic and great video but I'm confused do the bikes you tested on normally have a 8-10mm spacer/cup below the head tube? The Slack-R increases the height of an internal headset (and nobody told me this before I bought one). The lower bearing which is normally inside the head tube ends up about 14mm below the head tube. It increases the handlebar height on my Stumpjumper about 10mm. I ended up reducing the fork from 150mm to 140mm to compensate (which takes away 0.5 degrees of the angle).
They don't normally have a spacer below the head tube. Even with the added height from the Slackr, our bikes dropped 11 and 12mm. Without the Slacker (traditional angle adjust headset) the drop would be even bigger.
@@bikersedge something's not adding up (pulls out geometry book). If you drop the angle of a 150mm fork from 66 to 64 degrees the handlebars drop 3.2mm, assuming all other things being constant. From 64 to 62 it's a 3.3mm drop.
We didn’t measure from the bars. The bars add one more variable to the equation. Measured from the bottom of the head tube to the floor. Zachs bike had a 170mm fork with a 1.6 mm change and mine had a 160mm fork with a 1.5mm change. Also keep in mind this was with a tape measure and a bike as vertical and square to the floor as we could get it. I would imagine there’s a large margin for error in our measuring.
From all that I’ve read, each degree of change in HTA will kick the front wheel out by about 10-15mm depending on the length of the fork. Say at 65° a pretty substantial amount of that change comes from the vertical component of the HTA. With 1.6 degrees on a 170mm fork you’re probably looking at around 30 ish millimeters longer on the wheelbase. A significant chunk of that is going to be vertical drop. Makes sense that the head tube gets lower.
@@bikersedge I found where 9point8 actually provides an example. A 1.5 degree kit on a 2019 Tallboy Large, increases the BB 2mm, increases the stack (and increases the vertical height of the original headtube) and decreases reach. This matches what I measured and felt after I installed it on a 2020 Stumpjumper and I reduced my fork travel in order to avoid slacking out my seat angle too much. If you're handlebars were lower after you installed the only possibility is that you changed the number of spacers under your stem (by more than 10mm). The Works headset on my Giant Trance 29 does not have this problem - the head angle gets slacker, the seat angle gets steeper, the BB drops a few mm and you can fit a bigger fork without making the bad effects of the Slack-R even worse.
Again we are measuring from the bottom of the head tube not the bars. Spacer stacks don’t have anything to do with it. We didn’t measure BB height either.
I did some simple trig and came up with an 8mm drop in height (fairly close to what our measurements confirm) That doesn’t include any complications from fork offset or anything beyond a simple triangle. I don’t profess to be a bike engineer or mathematician but I do know that our measurements showed a significant drop in the distance between the head tube and the floor as well as a noticeable difference on the trail. Each bike is going to be a bit different. The Tallboy example wouldn’t apply here because that fork is significantly shorter than the forks we were using for our tests.
*Looks for spy cameras around house*
It's like you guys were spying on me and saw what I was literally just trying to figure out. I was contemplating the effects of head angelset on an SC Hightower(if even possible) and whether it would add any value. Like even a half degree fro. 65.2 to 64.7....
1)What are your thoughts on that and 2)is there a standard formula for the change in overall wheelbase measure for some [X] degree change in head angle? Like +/- X degree head angle change = +/- Y mm of wheelbase change....?
Thanks for all of these vids. Big time valuable and influential!
We have spies everywhere!!!
I think the Hightower would be great to make a bit slacker. I want to say it uses a standard press in headset so you would have a lot of options for angle adjust headsets. I'd probably look into over forking a bit too.
You could probably do some fancy trigonometry to find how much longer the wheelbase gets. It's going to depend on the original HTA as well as how much slacker the bike gets. Keep in mind, all those numbers go out the window the second you sit on the bike and sag into the travel .
@@bikersedge then Mr Burns said, "Excelleeeeennnnnt"
Then there’s me welding it back like a choppa. Hauls down hills tho
Forgot offset bushings
Yes we did. It’s not one we see too often at the shop.
Yes. End of video.
Hahaha. Saved me 12 minutes.
Why does everyone care about going down so fast? Why not chill and enjoy it, to me they just suppress it... you float over everything then you have a crappy climbing rig..
I find the term "outdated geometry" laughable. How long will it take mountain bike manufacturers to get it right? We pay almost as much as a dirt bike for a MTB, but the geometry of a dirt bike doesn't get "outdated." It seems like the only reason is to sell more bikes and for hipsters to make UA-cam videos.
Have you ridden a bike from 5 years ago vs one from this year?
@@bikersedgeI wonder about incrementalism- if that's even a word, though. If the grim donut is nearly as good as they say. Or the weird thing with super high bars via riser stem. Perhaps it's time to just try. .and make it. But there comes my slight suspicion theyll just go in baby steps so they got something new to sell for years. I believe it's a thing in other Industries too. Megapixels only skyrocketed after Sony Made 36mp sensors, before that 16,20,24 was it for a long time. SuperSport motorcycles slowly got from 170 to 180 HP until BMW pushed into the market with a bang much like Sony. Immediately everyone tried to catch up to full 200hp n soon got there
I see ebike :/
Looks like your eyes are working.