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Fun fact: This was the inspiration for the mid air collision scene in breaking bad. Everyone should know this, but the main character’s name was none other than Walter White, just like the ATC.
In remembrance: Captain Arturo Valdes Prom, 46 First Officer Jose Héctor Valencia, 26 Flight Attendant Laura Lavilla Ballesteros, 23 Flight Attendant Alma Gabriela Sánchez, 23 Flight Attendant Maria Patricia Trillo López, 27 Flight Attendant Rosalia Díaz Hernández, 23 Andrea Ojeda Avila, 7 Andrés A. Avila, 5 Rosa Ojeda De Avila, 29 Carmen Barrero, 26 Thomas Vernon Basye, 47 Byron West Booker, 54 Aurea G. Caro Frank Zambrano Corella, 44 Mark Anthony Corella, 17 Howard Woodrow Crosno, 73 Robert Glen Crosno, 45 Juan Manuel Echeverri, 55 Clemente Angel Espinosa, 40 Iris Ferrufino, 35 Israel Ferrufino, 25 Linda L. García, 40 Paul García, 33 Dinorah Maria González, 18 Hector Javier Gutiérrez, 22 Teresa Gutiérrez, 49 Joe Castillo Guzmán Manuel Castillo Guzmán, 59 Roberto Martin Guzmán, 18 Sherryl Ann Harmeling, 39 Sharon Hendricks, 38 Wendy Lea Hendricks, 16 Gregorio John Rosalez Huerta, 46 Robert William Kaptowski, 34 Elizabeth Knight, 1 Patricia Knight, 4 Rutilia Knight, 33 Elva Olivia Leaños, 41 Raul Leaños, 13 Carlos López Sr., 39 Carlos López Jr., 13 Guadalupe Cruz López, 35 Gloria Navis, 62 Raymond Walter Navis, 61 Christina Maria Peña, 16 Elizabeth Ann Peña, 11 Maria Guadalupe Peña, 37 Oscar Alejandro Peña, 41 Jesús Enrique Reyes, 37 Donald Paul Rush, 66 Fredric Arthur Rush, 33 Sandra Jean Lightburn Stein, 39 Stanley Stein, 56 Diana Ann Sicarios, 27 Gabriel Luis Sicarios, 10 George Luis Garcia Sicarios, 32 Ricardo Jorge Sicairos, 7 Jaime Valencia Richard Pinkney Walsh, 55 Donald J. Winlack, 74 Georgia Alayne Winlack, 67 Donald Loyhung Wong, 46 Jason Andrew Wong, 13 Stefan Curtis Wong, 12 Those on the Piper: Pilot William Kenneth Kramer, 53 Kathleen O'connell Kramer, 51 Caroline Kramer, 26 And those on the ground: Cuauhtémoc Jorgehector Cronkhite, 5 Tonantzin Cronkhite, 8 Xochiquetzal Maria Villicana Cronkhite, 37 Anjelica Andrea Estrada, 14 Frank Gabriel Estrada, 43 Javier Luis Estrada, 16 Freeman Dale Jackson Jr., 20 Juanita Kathleen Logan, 22 Linda Guarino McIllwain, 37 Kelsey Kehaulani Rickard, 4 Laura Maekeala Rickard, 29 Jennifer Lynn Starr, 17 Sandra Fay Starr, 19 Howard Lester Yackytooahnipah, 46 Sharon Frances Yackytooahnipah, 41
Reading through the list of names of those who perished, this has to be one of the very worst accidents. So many children, young people and entire families.. just mass devastation. Thank you for taking the time to provide the names of all those whose lives were cut short by this tragedy. May they be at rest and in peace.
Some blame should also be given to the other private pilot who violated the controlled airspace and absorbed the controller's time and attention unnecessarily.
Definitely but if he really didn’t realise the the guy couldn’t have known what would be coming and there is no way in hell he’d knowingly risk the lives of his wife and child
The pilot of the Grumman Tiger was charged with flying into a controlled airspace in a careless and reckless manner. I have never been able to find out what the result was.
This video led me to look into more crashes involving Piper Cherokee aircraft. I found a story from 1993 regarding a midair collision between a Cherokee and a human skydiver in freefall. Literally, just a man, in the open, hitting a plane at 120 miles an hour. The skydiver miraculously survived with just a broken leg! The plane, however, crashed with all souls lost. That was the craziest aviation accident I've read about in a long while. Perhaps it's worth a video?
How do we not have an Air Disasters on that?! If that happened to me today, that’d be the first line in my Tinder profile. ‘Got hit by plane mid-air and only one of us stuck the landing…no parachute needed.’ _(gotta be overly dramatic in the Tik Tok era)_
@@jeffrey.a.hanson That is absolutely insane. That would be my first and only story ever. What would life be like after that though? Would anything feel exciting or wondrous again? You know you'll never top that experience. How's this: "Hit a plane midair, yeah, but you should see the other guy." Too tasteless?
The 3 people on the Piper did not feel any pain. They were gone instantly. But the poor people on the plane, went through hell for about 20 seconds. Very sad.
We can’t make any great pronouncements about what the people on the Piper knew or didn’t know. Or what they did or didn’t feel. 10 seconds can be an eternity when you’re watching your dad’s head cut off. Especially if it lands in your lap. UA-cam experts make me crazy.
@@ailleananaithnid2566 How could they watch that when their own heads were cut off milliseconds later? I agree with you about UA-cam experts like yourself
What about the children in the playground? What did they see? And who found the severed heads of the three people in the Piper in that residential neighborhood full of families? Yeah, their end was mercifully quick, but there was so much suffering. As a private pilot, I never went near a TCA (class B airspace now) unless I knew it thoroughly. Not only can the FAA fine you AND take your license, it's very dangerous! I was always on full alert and tuned to the approach frequencies when I came near a TCA/class B. (My flight instructor told me that when he transitioned class B airspace, he always identified as a student pilot because it put the controllers on their guard. When I was a student and transitioned the Dulles/BWI TCA, the controllers spoke extra clearly and very kindly!)
I was 18 when this happened. I had just graduated from high school the month before. On that day, my father was supposed to fly home from Mexico, I was working a part time job in Downey, which is only a few cities away from Cerritos. The worst part for me was that I thought my father might have been on that Aeromexico flight. It took about an hour for me to reach my mother to learn my dad had extended his trip in Mexico and would be home on a different day and on a different airline.
It is very unfortunate that even after TCAS was recommended to avoid mid air collisions, so many collisions followed. PSA 182, Chhakki Dadri, Uberignén etc. And that's the most tragic part. Even after a lesson was learnt, even when everyone knew the solution to the problem, these sorts of disasters still continued happening. Slow installation of TCAS (Chhakki Dadri), Pilots of different countries trained on different rules for TCAS (Uberignén), a pilot inadvertently switching off the transponder by the unfortunate movement of his knee (Gol Transport Aeros 1907). That's the most tragic part of the story.
Pilots from different countries didn't train with different rules for TCAS. Soviet and Russian pilots had a culture of ATC being God, and they were reluctant to follow the TCAS solution when ATC said something different. All countries had rules that the TCAS solution takes priority over ATC, but the Russian crew was reluctant.
I don't know... I think I could handle something as quick as "pffft... you're gone"... as in not even dead or dying, just pffft... and GONE... not even enough left to recognize as flesh or gore or "spit and ass"... just nothing. The things that really bother me is seeing the thing burst into flames and fall out of the sky... running my ass off, the best I can, trying to deviate from its path and still... just... not... fast... enough... AND then boom... the blast... the heat, and fire and screaming as hard and loud as I ever have for all the agony... tumbling and bouncing over the ground and getting beaten and slashed by debris and shrapnel... lingering... every inhale drawing searing hot fire and smoke into my lungs to cook me from the inside, and every exhale impotently trying to push a voice that no longer works... pleading for the hurting... to stop... THAT terrifies me, if I'm honest... laying there broken all to Hell, and just waiting to die... no more fight left... no way to ever heal, even if anyone COULD save me... and just stinging and burning and aching all at once... Maybe the lucky ones are the ones that never see it coming... whether they just "wake up" at the Pearly Gates {or whatever convenient sideward dimensional plane you wish to believe in} or it's just all over in an instant. It's easy to slip into the worry about the fact that "insta-death" can come and take any of us at any time and anywhere... BUT there are worse ways to go. ;o)
@@wowplayer160 I don't know... I think we're about as lucky as anyone else. Your luck runs out at some point, though... Don't make the mistake of thinking assholes get to live forever. We just so rarely hear much about them getting dysentery or dying of a degenerative disease. They close themselves off when it gets embarrassing... and most people just don't care to know what's tearing them apart anyway... probably because they're assholes. Anyways... just my perspective on it. haha... ;o)
Putting this incident aside and looking at the system as a whole, I feel it's rather depressing to know that the solutions to most of commercial aviation's pressing issues are able to be condensed into a single A4 paper, but somehow find themselves taking a very, very long time to actually implement.
While I do believe this is, in part at least, due to corruption if the airlines. However, the airline business we know today and then is a culmination of decades of changes, improvements, and mistakes. You cannot expect things to happen all that fast because it takes significant time, effort and energy.
@@schmechel6888 "End Reaganomics" is also 14 letters; but as much as I love ranting about how the capitalist system is munted, I think I'll probably avoid wading too far into this debate out of fear of starting a flame war.
@@wowplayer160 That's true. I don't expect changes to happen instantly and I'm surprisingly patient, but as an outside viewer into an opaque system I really want to know where the holdups are and why they happen.
My husband and I used to have a small Hawk Arrow two-seater. We flew in the area around the Erie, PA airport and had to be very careful to stay out of the control zone. Our area has an active community of private pilots with small aircraft. Smaller planes were extremely hard to see from the air. A glint of sun on metal might be the only warning you'd have.
Exactly. I learned to fly at Monterey CA airport. Just a few minute to the north were the TCAs of San Jose, San Francisco and Oakland. There are also several smaller airports and Moffet Navy field. Needless to say I never entered this area except with my instructor. I knew how hard it was for all those heavies to see me. And with so many aircraft in the airspace it was like flying in a swarm of bees. Alone I took the long way around and I'd have done the same in the LA basin.
Am I the only one who would add 200' to my altitude, just in case? VFR aircraft are supposed to fly at altitudes ending in 500', e.g., 3,500', 5,500', etc. I flew at 3,700', or maybe 5,700'. I figured that way there was a better chance that I might avoid any other unseen VFR aircraft. It wasn't illegal, and I can't think of any safety issue.
Getting hit in the tail where the horizontal stabilizer and the vertical stabilizer are by a small airplane was really bad luck and leaves a really sad outcome. The pilots couldn't save the airplane when that happened. Cause of the accident was pilot error to the small plane that hit them, The Aeromexico pilots were following the strict rules all the time.
My Dad worked for PSA back when flight 182 collided with a Cessna 172 in San Diego over Northpark. It was a mess down there. Many killed many injured. I was living in Poway when the Cerritos crash happened same thing. Thank God for modern radios and avionics.
Other theories as to why the pilots never saw each other. The DC-9's cockpit windows are divided by six pillars, so that might also explain why the pilots never saw the Cherokee. As for William Kramer, my theory is that he asked his wife for assistance with the maps, and since she was sat to his right, she would've obstructed the AeroMexico plane from his view.
I think the whole idea back then (or even today) for an Air Transport category aircraft to utilise ‘see and avoid’ for separation purposes was a fallacy. But I recall reading the analysis of the pylon in the DC9 cockpit being a possible causal factor.
Fair, but I think the real question is why he was at the wrong altitude. Remember, the reason this happened is because Kramer had ascended to above his ceiling and into the path of the airliner. Why was he at 6500? My guess would be he misread a landmark and thought he was further east, where he would have needed to climb to approach big bear.
That is actually a good point. There is a similar issue with modern cars. The pillars have become thicker to make the roof sturdier, but that also hides things there. Like that one crossing in the UK with constant accidents because the roads cross at exactly that angle that would keep cyclists hidden behind the pillar. And yeah, I guess Kramer mistook position. Maybe even got his eye of his altitude while checking for landmarks and ascended on accident.
@@HappyBeezerStudios I can't believe he was unaware of his altitude because he was busy looking for landmarks. I'm a private pilot (haven't flown since 2003), and the altimeter is a crucial part of the instrument scan. If you're unsure of your location, you stay below the TCA altitude. I can'[t believe he would have been that careless. He might have mistakenly believed he was clear of that part of the TCA. He was a careful pilot who was aware of his limitations as a relatively new pilot, AND he was flying the world's most precious cargo - his wife and daughter. I can't believe he would simply have let altitude escape his attention. I've never flown in that area, but I suspect that's an area with... maybe too many landmarks? Maybe too many highways that can be confused with each other? It would be nice if approach controllers could give flight following on request, but that never happens in or around busy class B airspace. They have too much workload. I've actually asked, and at MIA I swear I could hear the controllers laughing in the background while the guy talking to me made it absolutely clear in a very stern voice that I was not welcome in their airspace or on their frequency. Then I saw a 727 out of my side window, which scared the hell outta me, even though I was below the class B and the 727 was doing a standard approach, well above me. Man that looks scary though!
I was an LA resident the day this happened, and everyone that lived in the flight path of LAX was horrified and frightened. It is reminiscent of PSA 182, that collided with a Cessna in nearby San Diego. Your spin on it was spot on.
"A mid-air collision in a completely different area of the world which isn't well known" My guess for next week's episode of Disaster Breakdown is going to be the Namibia collision (between a USAF C-141 and a Luftwaffe Tu-154). Just a wild guess of mine, since the accident involves 2 militaries, I don't think there's much data or trivial stories outside of Wikipedia and its sources, this will be a difficult yet intriguing case to make. Anyways, this is a very well done episode, and I'll be looking forward for next week's episode of "Disaster Breakdown" to see if my wild guess hits the mark or not.
It honestly makes me sad knowing how careful and precautions the piper pilot was and yet fate decided that he would still die in such a rare Way. Life is mysterious.. sometimes people find treasure in their backyard.. and sometimes you have a mid air collision with another plane. Rest in peace to all that died that day.
the most disturbing thing about the introduction of new life saving safety equipment is that we KNOW that there are teams of people in America fighting tooth and nail and spending hundreds of millions of dollars to stop it from happening. It would be an interesting study that researched and compiled a decent estimate of how many thousands of people have died as a direct result of corporate lobbying.
Read about corporate greed and the story of the Ford 'Pinto' fuel tank that could have been given a vital safety modification for as little as $5 [1960s dollars] per vehicle but the company's accountants said it was unaffordable.
I don't think anybody opposed mandatory altitude encoding transponders or TCAS. Both are very simple and relatively cheap. As a private pilot, when I first learned about TCAS, I was thrilled! I knew I wouldn't have it on my rented Cessnas, but the commercial planes would all be able to see me from miles away and know exactly where I was and what altitude I was at. They could avoid me! That was huge, and against the price of most avionics and avionic service, to them it was cheap. Mode C transponders were standard equipment then too.
Such high-quality work as always. I always look forward to Saturday mornings, sipping some Blackout Coffee on the deck with my German Shepherds, and enjoying your videos. Thank you from all aviation aficionados out here!
TCAS required on all aircraft in the contiguous United States. A true game changer. Modern transponders communicate with each other, so airplanes can see and avoid without air traffic control
Not all aircraft. Only aircraft capable of carrying more 19 or more passengers and/or a takeoff weight of 5700 kg. Small private aircraft like the Piper Cherokee are not required to have it.
Cross communication is a big thing. Giving each other position and path without having to congest ATC radio Could go so far that the plane gives a warning if something else crosses the flightpath within a couple degrees.
@@suzzannegabel1636 Still, even if my little rented Cessna doesn't have TCAS, it has a mode C transponder, which means all those larger aircraft can see me from miles away and always have a plan to avoid me. As I see it, that cuts my see-and-avoid midair risk substantially. I know they can see me.
@@shrimpflea True, but imagine discovering the wreckage. Some elementary school janitor probably heard the crash and went outside only to discover a plane crash with three headless bodies inside.
I live about 10 blocks from the accident scene and was a kid when this accident happened. It changed the aviation community in LA forever and as a pilot now who flies in and around the TCA at LAX, I can tell you that ATC is extremely strict and on top of all aircraft entering or transiting the TCA. You need advance permission and a flight plan filed. I have seen many times when aircraft violate the TCA and what happens to the air space so a lot has been learned from this accident. Great video!
2:58 wow, haven’t expected them to take the show this direction but I guess they wanted to place him in the place of the father he emotionally affected
@@DisasterBreakdown You and Green Dot are far and away the highest quality aviation accident channels. Thank you for your extreme dedication to providing such wonderful productions.
The Walt White connection is interesting. I assume it's not a coincidence, IE the main protagonist in Breaking Bad being named Walter White, and the show featuring a very similar incident, in as much as an aircraft crashes on a large US city, caused by a an ATC who was under stress caused by something Walter White had done. So we could say Walter White, caused a large passenger aircraft to crash in to a residential are of a large US city, as I say surely not a coincidence?
I am so impressed with this channel. I cannot look away from the beautifully presented and excellently researched story, not to mention the impressive graphics. Congratulations Disaster Breakdown, you are to be commended for your work!
As a retired controller and a pilot I would like to point out some misleading things presented here. It was irrelevant whether it not the Cherokee had a mode C , alt encoding, transponder. Had the plane remained clear of the class B airspace this accident would not have happened. The Cherokee was not squawking ant transponder code, not even VFR (1200) so the radar would only paint a primary target on the display. Considering all the clutter that is displayed it is unlikely that any one would have picked that out as an aircraft, and even more unlikely that it would be someplace it was not supposed to be. It would be far easier to look at the radar after the fact, specifically looking for THAT target and find it. Had the Cherokee been squawking 1200 the controller would still not likely called the traffic because the Aeromexico was in protected airspace. In the aftermath of this accident controllers were required to call out traffic on all aircraft if altitude was unknown to any aircraft below FL180. If mode C (alt) is displayed then call out only required if altitudes are close as in “ABD214 traffic 10 o’clock 9 miles tracking northwest alt 8500 unverified type-unknown” If no mode C shown same call except type and alt. Unknown. As a result many calls are given for traffic that might be as much as 10,000ft or more below aircraft. Primary targets are hard to track because of the clutter, and the only way to observe them is to watch multiple updates on the radar to see a consistent track, something a busy controller doesn’t have the luxury of doing. Ultimately the cause of this accident was the Cherokee being I; the wrong space. This pains me to say it, but there is no other way around it. Mode C transponders are now much more affordable than they were then, and are now required in and around any controlled airspace class c and above.
The Cherokee is totally at fault . Former marine navigator here. Cramer plotted his way to Big Bear. If he would have trusted his Dead Reckoning position (DR). He could have avoided the TCA.
Another enjoyable and informative video. Thanks for all your hard work. I would like to know which flight simulator program you use in making your videos?
Great video, I had always assumed from the Mayday episode that Kramer had violated laterally rather than vertically. This is an important distinction since it makes it very difficult for the controller to have known that the Piper was actually in the TCA given that it didn't have a mode C transponder. He would have had to actually contact the pilot, without knowing it's call sign, and verify it's altitude. It's quite possible, that even if he had noticed it, by the time they had established contact and realised the potential problem, the outcome would have been the same.
Another great video! Didn't actually know about this accident before watching this. Another surprisingly unknown mid-air collision I'd like to recommend is United Airlines flight 826 and TWA flight 266.
I have been enjoying your videos. Just a quick suggestion, you mention checking out the other video around the 5 minute mark, might be worth putting this video link in the description or similar to go straight to that video.
I’ve watched so many air crash investigations but I’ve never seen this one covered. I didn’t know that a second mid-air had occurred with a passenger jet and small plane. The PSA crash is so widely covered, this one seems to have slipped through the net. It’s horrible to think that 8 years after the PSA mid-air nothing had been put in place to prevent another one in terms of traffic alerts for pilots and ATC.
This accident was so horrible, the family onboard the piper were lucky and unlucky, they had the terrible chance to hit the Aeromexico, but they wouldn’t have known anything about it. They were all immediately decapitated, unlike the people on the larger plane who had to experience the plunge into the ground for over 20 seconds. A horrible thing for anyone in their final moments. May all their memories be a blessing.
Fun fact: the names of the episodes which contain the black and white intro (the ones which show the aftermath of the crash) for that season spell out, “Seven Thirty-Seven Down Over ABQ”
I grew up and lived about 4 miles away from the crash site off of Carmenita and 183rd. But my family and I were out of town on vacation when it happened. You really can’t tell much except the houses that got rebuilt just look different. There really is not much to see regarding that site.
I found in New York Times Archives it was reported on September 2, 1986, an LA Coroner determined Kramer had a seizure or heart attack prior to the accident, but injuries from accident were cause from death.
Numerous midair collisions and collisions with two aircraft in general has been shocking to hear in California. We had PSA 182 in San Diego which was a similar crash USAir 1493 with Skywest Metroliner. There are so many mid air collisions that can be done. Nice video, a video most people would've known but helpful for those who don't. Excited for the next video!
Yeah we've now covered the PSA incident, the Skywest incident and now the Aeromexico one. For the next mid air collision video we're heading back to Europe. That video is coming in a couple of weeks.
@@DisasterBreakdown That sounds interesting to hear. Early hints I guess. I will add that I would love to see Olympic Airways 411, Garuda Indonesia 421 or British Airways Flight 9 as they were quite honestly accidents that turned out as a great outcome (Spoiler Alert there was one fatality in Garuda Indonesia 421 on the landing)
@@DisasterBreakdown Don't tell me we are headed to former Yugoslavia! I have been requesting Zagreb for a while now. I will be really grateful if you cover it. Sorry if it's getting annoying.
USair 1493 and the skywest is a runway collision not a mid air collision as both planes were on the ground, and yes they did collide but but a mid air collision is only used if both planes were in the air
@@Silentservice77 I mean I did say "collision with two aircraft in general" I mean I can argue that USAir 1493 was sort of in the air as it didn't fully touchdown until impact with the Skywest Metroliner but it still counts as you said an accident in involving two aircraft I did say it.
Hi Chloe, I’m an avid fan of your channel and was wondering if you have considered making a video regarding the crash of Allegheny flight 853. It was a similar accident to this one but has had very little attention in any of the aviation investigation channels, compared to this one and the earlier PSA collision. My father was involved in the recovery efforts after the crash. I’ve been to the site and always have wanted to know more about it.
Here is a contributing factor that you did not mention, or maybe you do not know about. On general aviation aircraft with a long nose and in a climbing attitude the forward visibility is blocked significantly by the engine cowling. The pitch required to obtain a reasonable climb rate puts the front end of the cowling, just behind the propeller, somewhat above the horizon, so any obstacle directly in front of the climbing aircraft is obscured by the cowling. Also, with a high wing, part of the sky is partially blocked on either side of the aircraft, which was not the case with the piper. The pilot should have been aware of the restrictions of the TCA, but a lot of private pilots who fly only occasionally are not as familiar with airspace as they could and should be. There are always incursions into various controlled airspace every day throughout the USA, and probably other parts of the world. A tragic event, for sure. Another good video. Have a great day!!!
At the time, unregistered aircraft wasnt shown with altitude to make it easier for flight controllers as it was believed that people stuck to their travel plans. Small aircraft dont work that way, they set a speed and a direction, so he might have set a speed too high which would have given him additional lift and encroaching of the airspace. You can easily see how this happened, LAX had a lot of airplanes in their radar which would complicate their work if they had too see unregistered aircraft too. It would be harder to identify the correct plane, with more radar blips, even causing confusion due to that radar was quiet new, and something called stacking would be frequent where they lose track of an aircraft as they pass the same place but at different altitudes.
@@DisasterBreakdown I thought you said in a video early last year that it would get it's own video later last year or am I mistaken? Edit: the avainca 11 video near the end of it is where mentioned
RIP William Kramer (1933-1986) Kathleen Kramer (1935-1986) Caroline Kramer (1959-1986) and To the passengers and crew of Aeroméxico Flight 498 and the 15 people on the ground
I am from Inglewood, technically a suburb itself. The house I grew up in is only 10 minutes from LAX, and is directly underneath the flight path for runway 24R. Growing up my dad regularly took us to the little park on Sepulveda to watch planes. I take my daughters there ever chance I get now. I was 6 when this happened.
I remember going to class on my first day of the Fall semester at University and seeing the front page of the local newspaper with the photo of the inverted DC-9 falling to the ground.
I used to live a few blocks from Torrance Zamparini Airport...in fact I was living there on 9/11/2001, when all flights were grounded. During the groundstop it was decided that flights would continue being suspended at TZA. Eventually that stop became permanent (at least as long as I lived there).
Outstanding work as usual. Any chance you would do a video of the Oklahoma State University crash on the evening of January 27, 2001 crash of a Beechcraft King Air 200 ‘Catpass’ N81PF carrying 10 members of the OSU Basketball program. All 10 on board were killed. This occurs after the Oklahoma State University Cowboys played a basketball game against the University of Colorado Buffaloes in Boulder, CO. They were headed back to Stillwater, OK and were climbing at FL 23,200ftwhen AC power failed. Badly mismanaged by the Pilots who entered a shallow right bank that increased in speed and angle (Typical Graveyard Spiral) seconds before impact the pilots suddenly realized what was happening as they broke through the clouds seeing the ground rushing up at them, pulling on the yoke so hard it ripped the horizontal stabilizer, part of the vertical and that was the end. I only ask because this accident has been forgotten about and there are many lessons that can be learned and if seen visually will help prevent accidents like this from happening.
@@DisasterBreakdown Thank you very much. I truly appreciate what you do for the Aviation community. Plus I always appreciate when smaller general aviation accidents are covered, particularly because most pilots fly General Aviation VS the Airlines. Regardless, keep up the outstanding work you are an asset to the community. Jake
@@DriveByShouting Thank you for your kind words. I love making these videos and I am still thrilled people continue to watch. Bigger nd better videos are on the way!
LA's airspace is notoriously complex and unforgiving. I've never even been there but know of it. Even with TCAS and glass panels, when I've finished learning to fly, I'm getting an instrument rating so I can file IFR if I'm going anywhere near a major TCA
There is more often no single cause to an accident. It's often a chain of seemingly small minutiae events that culminate into a bigger event. In this case, the controller was distracted by the other aircraft that had violated the airspace, missing that the Cherokee had done the same, the AeroMexico crew was preparing the aircraft for landing and was probably going through checklists, and the Cherokee, as Chloe stated, could have been distracted by navigating visually looking for landmarks or reading a map. We know now that air travel has become safer due to changes implemented after disasters such as this.
The Cerritos USPS station is right on the edge of the crash area. Until they removed the drive-up mailboxes, I used to stop there on my way to work to post things, as it's an easy-off/-easy-on for the westbound 91 freeway. The memorial is a few blocks west of there. And it was the first major incident attended by former coroner's office employee Craig Harvey (who was also the consultant for the NCIS TV show), as I learned at a NCIS Fanfest a few years ago. Google Earth used to have links to crash sites, including this one, the San Diego PSA crash, and another PSA incident on the Central Coast.
This was the first episode of Air Crash Investigation that I watched when I was a kid on vacation (we didn't have the discovery network at home). I had nightmares of planes crashing into my home for YEARS.
People can talk all day about how safe flying is compared to a car. It is a gamble, a stacked deck against you having an accident in a plane to me. The risk is you must depend on others for your survival and too many things can go wrong that are out of your control. Sure it is a gamble in a car also but the propensity that a plane crash will be fatal is far greater than in a car, an accident for an accident. Statistically yes on paper flying is safer but deaths per accident in a plane are far greater.
I was six and we lived in Burbank and I don't know where we're going that day but we stopped for early lunch at a Denny's literally right down the road from where this happened. The lights flickered on and off when plane hit the ground and when we went outside we saw the two trails of smoke. The way we were going was the way where the plane crashed and it was pure chaos! So much smoke we just got out of there as quick as we could:( To this day if I hear a plane really low I always think about what if it's gonna crash into my house.
Thanks for not reading out all the usernames from your Patreon. I'd rather listen to you telling me about the benefits of joining than a long useless list of names... It's my peeve right now, some UA-camrs make you sit through that and now imagine being on headphones somewhere away from your computer with no of skipping it. ;D also, love your videos!
i'd like to see the 1960 new york mid air collision as it was the second mid air collision between TWA and United, it was the deadliest air crash until another crash took more lives of innocent people
Aeromexico Flight 498 was a tragic event in aviation history, which resulted in the loss of many innocent lives. The incident occurred on August 31, 1986, when a private aircraft collided with the commercial plane, causing it to crash into a residential area in Cerritos, California. The investigation of the accident revealed that the cause of the collision was the lack of proper communication between the air traffic control and the pilots of both aircraft. Moreover, the air traffic controller on duty at the time was found to be responsible for the accident, as he failed to follow proper procedures and provide sufficient guidance to the pilots. This incident highlights the importance of effective communication and coordination in aviation operations, especially in busy and complex airspace. It also underscores the critical role of air traffic controllers in ensuring the safety of air travel, as they are responsible for managing the movement of aircraft in the air and on the ground. As a result of this tragedy, the aviation industry has implemented various safety measures, including improved communication protocols, better training for air traffic controllers and pilots, and advanced technology to enhance safety and reduce the risk of similar incidents occurring in the future.
...I was in my sailboat off the Huntington Beach Pier with friends when this happened. We could see the smoke from this, but had no idea what had happened. Also, at the same exact time there was a riot going on at the H.B. Pier at the U.S. Surfing Championships. We could see the rioters turnning over LifeGuard trucks and setting them ablaze. AND where the plane impacted there was a group of American Indians gathered to have a Peyote Meeting. There was obviously some strong energy going on in this area. I always felt there were other forces in play that day.........
General aviation is well and good; but I‘m glad that it got stronger regulation. You have 75+ year olds where I live flying around in their Pipers and I find it questionable…
in the somewhat unique economic situation of California, , in terms of traffic, a long weekend would actually be by far a busier time for air-congestion compared to a normal day, especially, if the conditions are VFR since, that is the time most GA flights would take place (and there are many more GA aircraft then commercial ones around)
I once owned a PA28 exactly as shown here. Terminal radar is configured as SSR meaning that only aircraft identified by the designated squalk code would be visible enabling controllers to identify aircraft under each sectors control . Only primary radar would have picked up the PA28. it is recognised that without nearby visual reference the eye focus of the Cherokee pilot would have settled to the brains default distance of about 20m or so, in VFR pilots should selectively select a portion of sky & search it, change focus then select a different area & so on, in cruise what is happening ahead takes primary importance in theory fine but in practice its not as simple. The commercial jet would have been busy preparing for landing & in controlled airspace the responsibility is the controllers who was blind as mentioned, to the presence of the PA28.
17:53 literally last week there were planes flying above as I was going back home from work, they nearly collided with each other, but fortunately they didn’t. I didn’t get to take a picture since my mom driving at the time, didn’t point out the direction of where the planes were at the time
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@UncleJoeMedia Newcastle, England. That's where they're based.
This was an excellent video.
Fun fact: This was the inspiration for the mid air collision scene in breaking bad. Everyone should know this, but the main character’s name was none other than Walter White, just like the ATC.
When I was watching the Air Crash Investigation of this a couple months ago, I heard “Walter White” and immediately jumped to Breaking Bad
I can only imagine how traumatic it was, years later, for Walter White to be watching Breaking Bad and see the midair collision episode.
Was the name a deliberate choice or just a coincidence?
Did one of their heads land on a tortoise?
badass
In remembrance:
Captain Arturo Valdes Prom, 46
First Officer Jose Héctor Valencia, 26
Flight Attendant Laura Lavilla Ballesteros, 23
Flight Attendant Alma Gabriela Sánchez, 23
Flight Attendant Maria Patricia Trillo López, 27
Flight Attendant Rosalia Díaz Hernández, 23
Andrea Ojeda Avila, 7
Andrés A. Avila, 5
Rosa Ojeda De Avila, 29
Carmen Barrero, 26
Thomas Vernon Basye, 47
Byron West Booker, 54
Aurea G. Caro
Frank Zambrano Corella, 44
Mark Anthony Corella, 17
Howard Woodrow Crosno, 73
Robert Glen Crosno, 45
Juan Manuel Echeverri, 55
Clemente Angel Espinosa, 40
Iris Ferrufino, 35
Israel Ferrufino, 25
Linda L. García, 40
Paul García, 33
Dinorah Maria González, 18
Hector Javier Gutiérrez, 22
Teresa Gutiérrez, 49
Joe Castillo Guzmán
Manuel Castillo Guzmán, 59
Roberto Martin Guzmán, 18
Sherryl Ann Harmeling, 39
Sharon Hendricks, 38
Wendy Lea Hendricks, 16
Gregorio John Rosalez Huerta, 46
Robert William Kaptowski, 34
Elizabeth Knight, 1
Patricia Knight, 4
Rutilia Knight, 33
Elva Olivia Leaños, 41
Raul Leaños, 13
Carlos López Sr., 39
Carlos López Jr., 13
Guadalupe Cruz López, 35
Gloria Navis, 62
Raymond Walter Navis, 61
Christina Maria Peña, 16
Elizabeth Ann Peña, 11
Maria Guadalupe Peña, 37
Oscar Alejandro Peña, 41
Jesús Enrique Reyes, 37
Donald Paul Rush, 66
Fredric Arthur Rush, 33
Sandra Jean Lightburn Stein, 39
Stanley Stein, 56
Diana Ann Sicarios, 27
Gabriel Luis Sicarios, 10
George Luis Garcia Sicarios, 32
Ricardo Jorge Sicairos, 7
Jaime Valencia
Richard Pinkney Walsh, 55
Donald J. Winlack, 74
Georgia Alayne Winlack, 67
Donald Loyhung Wong, 46
Jason Andrew Wong, 13
Stefan Curtis Wong, 12
Those on the Piper:
Pilot William Kenneth Kramer, 53
Kathleen O'connell Kramer, 51
Caroline Kramer, 26
And those on the ground:
Cuauhtémoc Jorgehector Cronkhite, 5
Tonantzin Cronkhite, 8
Xochiquetzal Maria Villicana Cronkhite, 37
Anjelica Andrea Estrada, 14
Frank Gabriel Estrada, 43
Javier Luis Estrada, 16
Freeman Dale Jackson Jr., 20
Juanita Kathleen Logan, 22
Linda Guarino McIllwain, 37
Kelsey Kehaulani Rickard, 4
Laura Maekeala Rickard, 29
Jennifer Lynn Starr, 17
Sandra Fay Starr, 19
Howard Lester Yackytooahnipah, 46
Sharon Frances Yackytooahnipah, 41
When you actually see all the names and ages it really hits hard.
Reading through the list of names of those who perished, this has to be one of the very worst accidents. So many children, young people and entire families.. just mass devastation. Thank you for taking the time to provide the names of all those whose lives were cut short by this tragedy. May they be at rest and in peace.
😢🙏🏻
Don’t care didn’t ask
May all of them rest in peace
Some blame should also be given to the other private pilot who violated the controlled airspace and absorbed the controller's time and attention unnecessarily.
Oh, absolutely!
Definitely
Indeed
Definitely but if he really didn’t realise the the guy couldn’t have known what would be coming and there is no way in hell he’d knowingly risk the lives of his wife and child
The pilot of the Grumman Tiger was charged with flying into a controlled airspace in a careless and reckless manner. I have never been able to find out what the result was.
This video led me to look into more crashes involving Piper Cherokee aircraft. I found a story from 1993 regarding a midair collision between a Cherokee and a human skydiver in freefall. Literally, just a man, in the open, hitting a plane at 120 miles an hour. The skydiver miraculously survived with just a broken leg! The plane, however, crashed with all souls lost. That was the craziest aviation accident I've read about in a long while. Perhaps it's worth a video?
Marry me daddy
@ills6 that's crazy that a human body brought down a freaking plane, even if it was just a Cherokee, rip to all souls lost
@@SunBear69420hol up
How do we not have an Air Disasters on that?! If that happened to me today, that’d be the first line in my Tinder profile.
‘Got hit by plane mid-air and only one of us stuck the landing…no parachute needed.’ _(gotta be overly dramatic in the Tik Tok era)_
@@jeffrey.a.hanson That is absolutely insane. That would be my first and only story ever. What would life be like after that though? Would anything feel exciting or wondrous again? You know you'll never top that experience. How's this: "Hit a plane midair, yeah, but you should see the other guy." Too tasteless?
The 3 people on the Piper did not feel any pain. They were gone instantly. But the poor people on the plane, went through hell for about 20 seconds. Very sad.
We can’t make any great pronouncements about what the people on the Piper knew or didn’t know. Or what they did or didn’t feel. 10 seconds can be an eternity when you’re watching your dad’s head cut off. Especially if it lands in your lap.
UA-cam experts make me crazy.
@@ailleananaithnid2566 How could they watch that when their own heads were cut off milliseconds later?
I agree with you about UA-cam experts like yourself
What about the children in the playground? What did they see? And who found the severed heads of the three people in the Piper in that residential neighborhood full of families? Yeah, their end was mercifully quick, but there was so much suffering. As a private pilot, I never went near a TCA (class B airspace now) unless I knew it thoroughly. Not only can the FAA fine you AND take your license, it's very dangerous! I was always on full alert and tuned to the approach frequencies when I came near a TCA/class B. (My flight instructor told me that when he transitioned class B airspace, he always identified as a student pilot because it put the controllers on their guard. When I was a student and transitioned the Dulles/BWI TCA, the controllers spoke extra clearly and very kindly!)
I was 18 when this happened. I had just graduated from high school the month before. On that day, my father was supposed to fly home from Mexico, I was working a part time job in Downey, which is only a few cities away from Cerritos. The worst part for me was that I thought my father might have been on that Aeromexico flight. It took about an hour for me to reach my mother to learn my dad had extended his trip in Mexico and would be home on a different day and on a different airline.
wow im happy youre dad was safe
You graduated a month before this August 31 crash? Were you in special ed or something?
It is very unfortunate that even after TCAS was recommended to avoid mid air collisions, so many collisions followed.
PSA 182, Chhakki Dadri, Uberignén etc. And that's the most tragic part. Even after a lesson was learnt, even when everyone knew the solution to the problem, these sorts of disasters still continued happening.
Slow installation of TCAS (Chhakki Dadri), Pilots of different countries trained on different rules for TCAS (Uberignén), a pilot inadvertently switching off the transponder by the unfortunate movement of his knee (Gol Transport Aeros 1907). That's the most tragic part of the story.
@@shadowfireclaws5242
Chhakki Dadri happened when TCAS was there but just not implemented with force worldwide.
@@anshuman2952 But didn't PSA 182 happen years before the aeromexico one though
Pilots from different countries didn't train with different rules for TCAS. Soviet and Russian pilots had a culture of ATC being God, and they were reluctant to follow the TCAS solution when ATC said something different. All countries had rules that the TCAS solution takes priority over ATC, but the Russian crew was reluctant.
PSA 182 happened in 1978, 8 years before this.
Jeez, I remember that last photo of Aeromexico 496 so well for years. Of the scariest “last moment” photos ever taken
Out of all the places to crash, a residential area. Imagine a plane devastating 2 blocks infront of your home. It must've been _terrifying_
Imagine sitting in your couch, chilling with your family, just to hear a slight wiz or even nothing at all and get absolutly obliterated
I don't know... I think I could handle something as quick as "pffft... you're gone"... as in not even dead or dying, just pffft... and GONE... not even enough left to recognize as flesh or gore or "spit and ass"... just nothing.
The things that really bother me is seeing the thing burst into flames and fall out of the sky... running my ass off, the best I can, trying to deviate from its path and still... just... not... fast... enough... AND then boom... the blast... the heat, and fire and screaming as hard and loud as I ever have for all the agony... tumbling and bouncing over the ground and getting beaten and slashed by debris and shrapnel... lingering... every inhale drawing searing hot fire and smoke into my lungs to cook me from the inside, and every exhale impotently trying to push a voice that no longer works... pleading for the hurting... to stop...
THAT terrifies me, if I'm honest... laying there broken all to Hell, and just waiting to die... no more fight left... no way to ever heal, even if anyone COULD save me... and just stinging and burning and aching all at once...
Maybe the lucky ones are the ones that never see it coming... whether they just "wake up" at the Pearly Gates {or whatever convenient sideward dimensional plane you wish to believe in} or it's just all over in an instant. It's easy to slip into the worry about the fact that "insta-death" can come and take any of us at any time and anywhere... BUT there are worse ways to go. ;o)
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 Time and time again, good people are not the 'lucky' ones.
@@thefunki6516 imagine sitting on your toilet, taking a dump, just to hear a slight wiz or even nothing at all and get absolutely obliterated
@@wowplayer160 I don't know... I think we're about as lucky as anyone else. Your luck runs out at some point, though...
Don't make the mistake of thinking assholes get to live forever. We just so rarely hear much about them getting dysentery or dying of a degenerative disease. They close themselves off when it gets embarrassing... and most people just don't care to know what's tearing them apart anyway... probably because they're assholes.
Anyways... just my perspective on it. haha... ;o)
Putting this incident aside and looking at the system as a whole, I feel it's rather depressing to know that the solutions to most of commercial aviation's pressing issues are able to be condensed into a single A4 paper, but somehow find themselves taking a very, very long time to actually implement.
While I do believe this is, in part at least, due to corruption if the airlines. However, the airline business we know today and then is a culmination of decades of changes, improvements, and mistakes. You cannot expect things to happen all that fast because it takes significant time, effort and energy.
You can write ‘end world hunger’ with just 14 letters but that don’t make it simple to implement nick!
@@wowplayer160 l0lz no it takes accidents to make thoise greedy cucks at airline companies to make changes cuz they risk being sued
@@schmechel6888 "End Reaganomics" is also 14 letters; but as much as I love ranting about how the capitalist system is munted, I think I'll probably avoid wading too far into this debate out of fear of starting a flame war.
@@wowplayer160 That's true. I don't expect changes to happen instantly and I'm surprisingly patient, but as an outside viewer into an opaque system I really want to know where the holdups are and why they happen.
My husband and I used to have a small Hawk Arrow two-seater. We flew in the area around the Erie, PA airport and had to be very careful to stay out of the control zone. Our area has an active community of private pilots with small aircraft. Smaller planes were extremely hard to see from the air. A glint of sun on metal might be the only warning you'd have.
@Bigga Nigga Troll
Exactly. I learned to fly at Monterey CA airport. Just a few minute to the north were the TCAs of San Jose, San Francisco and Oakland. There are also several smaller airports and Moffet Navy field. Needless to say I never entered this area except with my instructor. I knew how hard it was for all those heavies to see me. And with so many aircraft in the airspace it was like flying in a swarm of bees. Alone I took the long way around and I'd have done the same in the LA basin.
Am I the only one who would add 200' to my altitude, just in case? VFR aircraft are supposed to fly at altitudes ending in 500', e.g., 3,500', 5,500', etc. I flew at 3,700', or maybe 5,700'. I figured that way there was a better chance that I might avoid any other unseen VFR aircraft. It wasn't illegal, and I can't think of any safety issue.
Amazed how intact that Cherokee looked after crashing
Just the whole top was sheered off and it just glided down on it's own.
The occupants were not intact.
@@TheGryfonclaw An all too grim reality, unfortunately. 😟
Getting hit in the tail where the horizontal stabilizer and the vertical stabilizer are by a small airplane was really bad luck and leaves a really sad outcome. The pilots couldn't save the airplane when that happened. Cause of the accident was pilot error to the small plane that hit them, The Aeromexico pilots were following the strict rules all the time.
My Dad worked for PSA back when flight 182 collided with a Cessna 172 in San Diego over Northpark. It was a mess down there. Many killed many injured. I was living in Poway when the Cerritos crash happened same thing. Thank God for modern radios and avionics.
Other theories as to why the pilots never saw each other. The DC-9's cockpit windows are divided by six pillars, so that might also explain why the pilots never saw the Cherokee. As for William Kramer, my theory is that he asked his wife for assistance with the maps, and since she was sat to his right, she would've obstructed the AeroMexico plane from his view.
I think the whole idea back then (or even today) for an Air Transport category aircraft to utilise ‘see and avoid’ for separation purposes was a fallacy. But I recall reading the analysis of the pylon in the DC9 cockpit being a possible causal factor.
Fair, but I think the real question is why he was at the wrong altitude. Remember, the reason this happened is because Kramer had ascended to above his ceiling and into the path of the airliner. Why was he at 6500? My guess would be he misread a landmark and thought he was further east, where he would have needed to climb to approach big bear.
That is actually a good point. There is a similar issue with modern cars. The pillars have become thicker to make the roof sturdier, but that also hides things there. Like that one crossing in the UK with constant accidents because the roads cross at exactly that angle that would keep cyclists hidden behind the pillar.
And yeah, I guess Kramer mistook position. Maybe even got his eye of his altitude while checking for landmarks and ascended on accident.
@@HappyBeezerStudios I can't believe he was unaware of his altitude because he was busy looking for landmarks. I'm a private pilot (haven't flown since 2003), and the altimeter is a crucial part of the instrument scan. If you're unsure of your location, you stay below the TCA altitude. I can'[t believe he would have been that careless. He might have mistakenly believed he was clear of that part of the TCA. He was a careful pilot who was aware of his limitations as a relatively new pilot, AND he was flying the world's most precious cargo - his wife and daughter. I can't believe he would simply have let altitude escape his attention. I've never flown in that area, but I suspect that's an area with... maybe too many landmarks? Maybe too many highways that can be confused with each other?
It would be nice if approach controllers could give flight following on request, but that never happens in or around busy class B airspace. They have too much workload. I've actually asked, and at MIA I swear I could hear the controllers laughing in the background while the guy talking to me made it absolutely clear in a very stern voice that I was not welcome in their airspace or on their frequency. Then I saw a 727 out of my side window, which scared the hell outta me, even though I was below the class B and the 727 was doing a standard approach, well above me. Man that looks scary though!
I was an LA resident the day this happened, and everyone that lived in the flight path of LAX was horrified and frightened. It is reminiscent of PSA 182, that collided with a Cessna in nearby San Diego. Your spin on it was spot on.
I was in LAX, waiting for a flight to Texas, that day. Everyone was glued to the TV monitors in the bar, and we were all drinking like thirsty camels.
"A mid-air collision in a completely different area of the world which isn't well known"
My guess for next week's episode of Disaster Breakdown is going to be the Namibia collision (between a USAF C-141 and a Luftwaffe Tu-154). Just a wild guess of mine, since the accident involves 2 militaries, I don't think there's much data or trivial stories outside of Wikipedia and its sources, this will be a difficult yet intriguing case to make.
Anyways, this is a very well done episode, and I'll be looking forward for next week's episode of "Disaster Breakdown" to see if my wild guess hits the mark or not.
It honestly makes me sad knowing how careful and precautions the piper pilot was and yet fate decided that he would still die in such a rare Way. Life is mysterious.. sometimes people find treasure in their backyard.. and sometimes you have a mid air collision with another plane. Rest in peace to all that died that day.
the most disturbing thing about the introduction of new life saving safety equipment is that we KNOW that there are teams of people in America fighting tooth and nail and spending hundreds of millions of dollars to stop it from happening.
It would be an interesting study that researched and compiled a decent estimate of how many thousands of people have died as a direct result of corporate lobbying.
Read about corporate greed and the story of the Ford 'Pinto' fuel tank that could have been given a vital safety modification for as little as $5 [1960s dollars] per vehicle but the company's accountants said it was unaffordable.
I don't think anybody opposed mandatory altitude encoding transponders or TCAS. Both are very simple and relatively cheap. As a private pilot, when I first learned about TCAS, I was thrilled! I knew I wouldn't have it on my rented Cessnas, but the commercial planes would all be able to see me from miles away and know exactly where I was and what altitude I was at. They could avoid me! That was huge, and against the price of most avionics and avionic service, to them it was cheap. Mode C transponders were standard equipment then too.
Such high-quality work as always. I always look forward to Saturday mornings, sipping some Blackout Coffee on the deck with my German Shepherds, and enjoying your videos. Thank you from all aviation aficionados out here!
Thanks for watching!
Yeah the image of that plane rocketing to the Earth. Seeing that image knowing that people had only seconds to live.
Ever since I first saw that image I couldn't forget it
This photo and the psa one 😔
TCAS required on all aircraft in the contiguous United States. A true game changer. Modern transponders communicate with each other, so airplanes can see and avoid without air traffic control
Not all aircraft. Only aircraft capable of carrying more 19 or more passengers and/or a takeoff weight of 5700 kg. Small private aircraft like the Piper Cherokee are not required to have it.
Cross communication is a big thing.
Giving each other position and path without having to congest ATC radio
Could go so far that the plane gives a warning if something else crosses the flightpath within a couple degrees.
@@suzzannegabel1636 Still, even if my little rented Cessna doesn't have TCAS, it has a mode C transponder, which means all those larger aircraft can see me from miles away and always have a plan to avoid me. As I see it, that cuts my see-and-avoid midair risk substantially. I know they can see me.
The decapitation of the Piper occupants has always fascinated me. What a horrible way to die.
Yes but at least it was quick.
@@shrimpflea True, but imagine discovering the wreckage. Some elementary school janitor probably heard the crash and went outside only to discover a plane crash with three headless bodies inside.
Great voice-over. Very clear and easy to listen to.
Glad of no loud music. Thanks.
I live about 10 blocks from the accident scene and was a kid when this accident happened. It changed the aviation community in LA forever and as a pilot now who flies in and around the TCA at LAX, I can tell you that ATC is extremely strict and on top of all aircraft entering or transiting the TCA. You need advance permission and a flight plan filed. I have seen many times when aircraft violate the TCA and what happens to the air space so a lot has been learned from this accident. Great video!
I have read a lot and watched several videos about that accident and still it horrifies me just as much everytime. Great one, Chloe :)
loved the details in this one, especially about the LA area, it really helped get it clear in my head! great video, as always :)
2:58 wow, haven’t expected them to take the show this direction but I guess they wanted to place him in the place of the father he emotionally affected
I can't help but think that this was inspiration for that scene.
Honestly crashing two planes over las Angeles in real life was a brilliant decision by Vince Gilligan, really brought the show to life
@@clayleone9111 It was not LA in the show it was Albuquerque, New Mexico.
I always watch your videos as soon as they come out, keep up the great work 👍
Thanks so much for tuning in and watching!
Green Dot Aviation commented on your high-quality work during his most recent video/stream.
I think Green Dot makes stellar content. I am very much looking forward to their MH370 video!
@@DisasterBreakdown You and Green Dot are far and away the highest quality aviation accident channels. Thank you for your extreme dedication to providing such wonderful productions.
This is one of my most favorite UA-cam channels that I subscribe to. The detail and quality is absolutely amazing.
Thanks Chloe. Great work, as usual.
The Walt White connection is interesting. I assume it's not a coincidence, IE the main protagonist in Breaking Bad being named Walter White, and the show featuring a very similar incident, in as much as an aircraft crashes on a large US city, caused by a an ATC who was under stress caused by something Walter White had done. So we could say Walter White, caused a large passenger aircraft to crash in to a residential are of a large US city, as I say surely not a coincidence?
That's exactly where I went as well.
The similarities are striking.
"I am the one who lands"
I heard his name and I came looking for the comment haha
It's not a coincidence. Viince Gilligan has said that is partly why they chose that name and why the show features a mid-air collision incident.
Breaking bad
I enjoy your work. Well researched, well written, organized and thorough. Touch notch!
I am so impressed with this channel. I cannot look away from the beautifully presented and excellently researched story, not to mention the impressive graphics. Congratulations Disaster Breakdown, you are to be commended for your work!
Great video chloe always super interesting and always very well narrated and produced
I can't imagine how scary that plane crash must have been 😢
I love your channel. Keep up the amazing work. 👍👍👍
Such a great channel mate - big thanks for your well researched vids - cheers
This, I think, has to be one of those incidents that led to an enormous change in Aviation. Another excellent video.
As a retired controller and a pilot I would like to point out some misleading things presented here.
It was irrelevant whether it not the Cherokee had a mode C , alt encoding, transponder. Had the plane remained clear of the class B airspace this accident would not have happened. The Cherokee was not squawking ant transponder code, not even VFR (1200) so the radar would only paint a primary target on the display. Considering all the clutter that is displayed it is unlikely that any one would have picked that out as an aircraft, and even more unlikely that it would be someplace it was not supposed to be. It would be far easier to look at the radar after the fact, specifically looking for THAT target and find it. Had the Cherokee been squawking 1200 the controller would still not likely called the traffic because the Aeromexico was in protected airspace.
In the aftermath of this accident controllers were required to call out traffic on all aircraft if altitude was unknown to any aircraft below FL180. If mode C (alt) is displayed then call out only required if altitudes are close as in
“ABD214 traffic 10 o’clock 9 miles tracking northwest alt 8500 unverified type-unknown”
If no mode C shown same call except type and alt. Unknown.
As a result many calls are given for traffic that might be as much as 10,000ft or more below aircraft.
Primary targets are hard to track because of the clutter, and the only way to observe them is to watch multiple updates on the radar to see a consistent track, something a busy controller doesn’t have the luxury of doing.
Ultimately the cause of this accident was the Cherokee being I; the wrong space. This pains me to say it, but there is no other way around it.
Mode C transponders are now much more affordable than they were then, and are now required in and around any controlled airspace class c and above.
The Cherokee is totally at fault . Former marine navigator here. Cramer plotted his way to Big Bear. If he would have trusted his Dead Reckoning position (DR). He could have avoided the TCA.
Well now we know where the breaking bad writers got a plot device from
I noticed the [dark] red streaks on the wing of the Piper were actually their blood. In other videos, the wreckage of the Piper was more vivid.
Another enjoyable and informative video. Thanks for all your hard work.
I would like to know which flight simulator program you use in making your videos?
Subbed. Great channel. Just curious, what’s going on with those ailerons? Which sim and DC-9 are you using?
Great video, I had always assumed from the Mayday episode that Kramer had violated laterally rather than vertically. This is an important distinction since it makes it very difficult for the controller to have known that the Piper was actually in the TCA given that it didn't have a mode C transponder. He would have had to actually contact the pilot, without knowing it's call sign, and verify it's altitude. It's quite possible, that even if he had noticed it, by the time they had established contact and realised the potential problem, the outcome would have been the same.
My guess is that he was looking out the window for landmarks and ascended unplanned.
Another great video! Didn't actually know about this accident before watching this. Another surprisingly unknown mid-air collision I'd like to recommend is United Airlines flight 826 and TWA flight 266.
I have been enjoying your videos. Just a quick suggestion, you mention checking out the other video around the 5 minute mark, might be worth putting this video link in the description or similar to go straight to that video.
I’ve watched so many air crash investigations but I’ve never seen this one covered. I didn’t know that a second mid-air had occurred with a passenger jet and small plane. The PSA crash is so widely covered, this one seems to have slipped through the net. It’s horrible to think that 8 years after the PSA mid-air nothing had been put in place to prevent another one in terms of traffic alerts for pilots and ATC.
This channel is amazing!😊
Glad you think so!
Crazy. Thanks for sharing.
This accident was so horrible, the family onboard the piper were lucky and unlucky, they had the terrible chance to hit the Aeromexico, but they wouldn’t have known anything about it. They were all immediately decapitated, unlike the people on the larger plane who had to experience the plunge into the ground for over 20 seconds. A horrible thing for anyone in their final moments. May all their memories be a blessing.
Did their heads stay in the cockpit, or did they have to find them?
A severed human head can stay conscious for over a minute if it's a clean cut without blunt force trauma.
RIP to all the victims. I'm so glad TCAS is as common as it is these days
This is the inspiration for the Plane crash in the breaking bad episode “ABQ”
Fun fact: the names of the episodes which contain the black and white intro (the ones which show the aftermath of the crash) for that season spell out, “Seven Thirty-Seven Down Over ABQ”
I grew up and lived about 4 miles away from the crash site off of Carmenita and 183rd. But my family and I were out of town on vacation when it happened.
You really can’t tell much except the houses that got rebuilt just look different.
There really is not much to see regarding that site.
Good work, thank you.
Thanks for watching!
I found in New York Times Archives it was reported on September 2, 1986, an LA Coroner determined Kramer had a seizure or heart attack prior to the accident, but injuries from accident were cause from death.
No, the autopsy did not show a heart attackv or seizure. He just didn't see the plane and the Aeromexico didn't see him
Damn, no wonder Walter became a chemist and started cooking with Jesse
I was a kid when this happened and lived in a nearby city. I remember it on the news and we even drove past the accident scene.
Numerous midair collisions and collisions with two aircraft in general has been shocking to hear in California.
We had PSA 182 in San Diego which was a similar crash
USAir 1493 with Skywest Metroliner.
There are so many mid air collisions that can be done. Nice video, a video most people would've known but helpful for those who don't.
Excited for the next video!
Yeah we've now covered the PSA incident, the Skywest incident and now the Aeromexico one. For the next mid air collision video we're heading back to Europe. That video is coming in a couple of weeks.
@@DisasterBreakdown That sounds interesting to hear. Early hints I guess.
I will add that I would love to see Olympic Airways 411, Garuda Indonesia 421 or British Airways Flight 9 as they were quite honestly accidents that turned out as a great outcome (Spoiler Alert there was one fatality in Garuda Indonesia 421 on the landing)
@@DisasterBreakdown
Don't tell me we are headed to former Yugoslavia!
I have been requesting Zagreb for a while now. I will be really grateful if you cover it.
Sorry if it's getting annoying.
USair 1493 and the skywest is a runway collision not a mid air collision as both planes were on the ground, and yes they did collide but but a mid air collision is only used if both planes were in the air
@@Silentservice77 I mean I did say "collision with two aircraft in general" I mean I can argue that USAir 1493 was sort of in the air as it didn't fully touchdown until impact with the Skywest Metroliner but it still counts as you said an accident in involving two aircraft I did say it.
Hi Chloe, I’m an avid fan of your channel and was wondering if you have considered making a video regarding the crash of Allegheny flight 853. It was a similar accident to this one but has had very little attention in any of the aviation investigation channels, compared to this one and the earlier PSA collision. My father was involved in the recovery efforts after the crash. I’ve been to the site and always have wanted to know more about it.
Cool! Just watching it now!!
Thanks for watching!
Here is a contributing factor that you did not mention, or maybe you do not know about. On general aviation aircraft with a long nose and in a climbing attitude the forward visibility is blocked significantly by the engine cowling. The pitch required to obtain a reasonable climb rate puts the front end of the cowling, just behind the propeller, somewhat above the horizon, so any obstacle directly in front of the climbing aircraft is obscured by the cowling. Also, with a high wing, part of the sky is partially blocked on either side of the aircraft, which was not the case with the piper. The pilot should have been aware of the restrictions of the TCA, but a lot of private pilots who fly only occasionally are not as familiar with airspace as they could and should be. There are always incursions into various controlled airspace every day throughout the USA, and probably other parts of the world. A tragic event, for sure. Another good video. Have a great day!!!
Interesting. My family is from the LA area, but I had never heard of this incident before.
At the time, unregistered aircraft wasnt shown with altitude to make it easier for flight controllers as it was believed that people stuck to their travel plans. Small aircraft dont work that way, they set a speed and a direction, so he might have set a speed too high which would have given him additional lift and encroaching of the airspace.
You can easily see how this happened, LAX had a lot of airplanes in their radar which would complicate their work if they had too see unregistered aircraft too. It would be harder to identify the correct plane, with more radar blips, even causing confusion due to that radar was quiet new, and something called stacking would be frequent where they lose track of an aircraft as they pass the same place but at different altitudes.
Can you do the Madrid Runway collision next, its one of the most un-heard of Ground collisions
That's a good idea actually, I don't have it on my list at the moment but I'll certainly look into it.
@@DisasterBreakdown I thought you said in a video early last year that it would get it's own video later last year or am I mistaken? Edit: the avainca 11 video near the end of it is where mentioned
RIP
William Kramer
(1933-1986)
Kathleen Kramer
(1935-1986)
Caroline Kramer
(1959-1986)
and
To the passengers and crew of Aeroméxico Flight 498 and the 15 people on the ground
I am from Inglewood, technically a suburb itself. The house I grew up in is only 10 minutes from LAX, and is directly underneath the flight path for runway 24R. Growing up my dad regularly took us to the little park on Sepulveda to watch planes. I take my daughters there ever chance I get now.
I was 6 when this happened.
Oh shit! I’m from Torrance! But I was only 1 when this happened. I definitely recommend VISITING there but living there is crazy expensive!!
I remember going to class on my first day of the Fall semester at University and seeing the front page of the local newspaper with the photo of the inverted DC-9 falling to the ground.
I used to live a few blocks from Torrance Zamparini Airport...in fact I was living there on 9/11/2001, when all flights were grounded. During the groundstop it was decided that flights would continue being suspended at TZA. Eventually that stop became permanent (at least as long as I lived there).
Omg are you covering the Zagreb midair collision? Ive not seen that much coverage on it
Outstanding work as usual.
Any chance you would do a video of the Oklahoma State University crash on the evening of January 27, 2001 crash of a Beechcraft King Air 200 ‘Catpass’ N81PF carrying 10 members of the OSU Basketball program. All 10 on board were killed.
This occurs after the Oklahoma State University Cowboys played a basketball game against the University of Colorado Buffaloes in Boulder, CO. They were headed back to Stillwater, OK and were climbing at FL 23,200ftwhen AC power failed. Badly mismanaged by the Pilots who entered a shallow right bank that increased in speed and angle (Typical Graveyard Spiral) seconds before impact the pilots suddenly realized what was happening as they broke through the clouds seeing the ground rushing up at them, pulling on the yoke so hard it ripped the horizontal stabilizer, part of the vertical and that was the end.
I only ask because this accident has been forgotten about and there are many lessons that can be learned and if seen visually will help prevent accidents like this from happening.
Hey thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a look!
@@DisasterBreakdown Thank you very much. I truly appreciate what you do for the Aviation community.
Plus I always appreciate when smaller general aviation accidents are covered, particularly because most pilots fly General Aviation VS the Airlines.
Regardless, keep up the outstanding work you are an asset to the community.
Jake
@@DriveByShouting Thank you for your kind words. I love making these videos and I am still thrilled people continue to watch. Bigger nd better videos are on the way!
LA's airspace is notoriously complex and unforgiving. I've never even been there but know of it. Even with TCAS and glass panels, when I've finished learning to fly, I'm getting an instrument rating so I can file IFR if I'm going anywhere near a major TCA
Quite harrowing that at that time and place these two aircraft met. A second or two later and they would've missed. RIP to everyone who perished.
2:55 no no no don't think about saying it
There is more often no single cause to an accident. It's often a chain of seemingly small minutiae events that culminate into a bigger event. In this case, the controller was distracted by the other aircraft that had violated the airspace, missing that the Cherokee had done the same, the AeroMexico crew was preparing the aircraft for landing and was probably going through checklists, and the Cherokee, as Chloe stated, could have been distracted by navigating visually looking for landmarks or reading a map. We know now that air travel has become safer due to changes implemented after disasters such as this.
The Cerritos USPS station is right on the edge of the crash area. Until they removed the drive-up mailboxes, I used to stop there on my way to work to post things, as it's an easy-off/-easy-on for the westbound 91 freeway. The memorial is a few blocks west of there. And it was the first major incident attended by former coroner's office employee Craig Harvey (who was also the consultant for the NCIS TV show), as I learned at a NCIS Fanfest a few years ago. Google Earth used to have links to crash sites, including this one, the San Diego PSA crash, and another PSA incident on the Central Coast.
This was the first episode of Air Crash Investigation that I watched when I was a kid on vacation (we didn't have the discovery network at home). I had nightmares of planes crashing into my home for YEARS.
People can talk all day about how safe flying is compared to a car. It is a gamble, a stacked deck against you having an accident in a plane to me. The risk is you must depend on others for your survival and too many things can go wrong that are out of your control. Sure it is a gamble in a car also but the propensity that a plane crash will be fatal is far greater than in a car, an accident for an accident. Statistically yes on paper flying is safer but deaths per accident in a plane are far greater.
Waltuh , put your stick away waltuh
This is truly horrifying, RIP to all the souls who lost their lives on that faithful day 🙏
I was six and we lived in Burbank and I don't know where we're going that day but we stopped for early lunch at a Denny's literally right down the road from where this happened. The lights flickered on and off when plane hit the ground and when we went outside we saw the two trails of smoke. The way we were going was the way where the plane crashed and it was pure chaos! So much smoke we just got out of there as quick as we could:(
To this day if I hear a plane really low I always think about what if it's gonna crash into my house.
Walter White is a man with many talents 😅
Obviously not
Who knew Walter White from Breaking Bad worked as an ATC controller?
Thanks for not reading out all the usernames from your Patreon.
I'd rather listen to you telling me about the benefits of joining than a long useless list of names... It's my peeve right now, some UA-camrs make you sit through that and now imagine being on headphones somewhere away from your computer with no of skipping it. ;D
also, love your videos!
i'd like to see the 1960 new york mid air collision as it was the second mid air collision between TWA and United, it was the deadliest air crash until another crash took more lives of innocent people
Aeromexico Flight 498 was a tragic event in aviation history, which resulted in the loss of many innocent lives. The incident occurred on August 31, 1986, when a private aircraft collided with the commercial plane, causing it to crash into a residential area in Cerritos, California.
The investigation of the accident revealed that the cause of the collision was the lack of proper communication between the air traffic control and the pilots of both aircraft. Moreover, the air traffic controller on duty at the time was found to be responsible for the accident, as he failed to follow proper procedures and provide sufficient guidance to the pilots.
This incident highlights the importance of effective communication and coordination in aviation operations, especially in busy and complex airspace. It also underscores the critical role of air traffic controllers in ensuring the safety of air travel, as they are responsible for managing the movement of aircraft in the air and on the ground.
As a result of this tragedy, the aviation industry has implemented various safety measures, including improved communication protocols, better training for air traffic controllers and pilots, and advanced technology to enhance safety and reduce the risk of similar incidents occurring in the future.
...I was in my sailboat off the Huntington Beach Pier with friends when this happened. We could see the smoke from this, but had no idea what had happened. Also, at the same exact time there was a riot going on at the H.B. Pier at the U.S. Surfing Championships. We could see the rioters turnning over LifeGuard trucks and setting them ablaze. AND where the plane impacted there was a group of American Indians gathered to have a Peyote Meeting. There was obviously some strong energy going on in this area. I always felt there were other forces in play that day.........
Those poor souls 😪
General aviation is well and good; but I‘m glad that it got stronger regulation. You have 75+ year olds where I live flying around in their Pipers and I find it questionable…
If you recognised the name, yes this is what inspired Vince Gilligan the name of the main character.
As well as the Wayfarer 515 crash.
When you said Walter White, I had to make sure it wasn't April 1st and you weren't talking about the plane crash from Breaking Bad.
That's where they got his name from for the show.
in the somewhat unique economic situation of California, , in terms of traffic, a long weekend would actually be by far a busier time for air-congestion compared to a normal day, especially, if the conditions are VFR since, that is the time most GA flights would take place (and there are many more GA aircraft then commercial ones around)
I once owned a PA28 exactly as shown here. Terminal radar is configured as SSR meaning that only aircraft identified by the designated squalk code would be visible enabling controllers to identify aircraft under each sectors control . Only primary radar would have picked up the PA28. it is recognised that without nearby visual reference the eye focus of the Cherokee pilot would have settled to the brains default distance of about 20m or so, in VFR pilots should selectively select a portion of sky & search it, change focus then select a different area & so on, in cruise what is happening ahead takes primary importance in theory fine but in practice its not as simple. The commercial jet would have been busy preparing for landing & in controlled airspace the responsibility is the controllers who was blind as mentioned, to the presence of the PA28.
I use to drive a cab ( Yellow Cab ) for 9 months at LAX
Planes landing and leaving every 2 minutes
busy busy
17:53 literally last week there were planes flying above as I was going back home from work, they nearly collided with each other, but fortunately they didn’t. I didn’t get to take a picture since my mom driving at the time, didn’t point out the direction of where the planes were at the time
What a horrible accident especially for the people on the ground