Marcus Aurelius passed the Empire to Commodus for logical reasons. Folks tend to discuss the "Five Good Emperors" as being good because they chose the best person to succeed them rather than passing power to their children, but when you examine it, none of them had sons except Marcus. NOT passing the torch to Commodus would have caused a civil war since there would be a disaffected direct heir to the throne willing to fight to take his inheritance. Commodus was initially popular with the military, so it was expected that he would become Emperor anyway. At least passing the torch peacefully would allow for the chance that peace could be maintained. Some folks have asked why Marcus did not execute Commodus, but Commodus was his son, after all. Even aside from the human aspect of not wanting to kill your own kid, killing a family member was religiously forbidden, and would have disrupted Marcus's own reign. The best Marcus could do was hope Commodus would come to his senses and heed the teaching Marcus had given him. Unfortunately, he did not.
I''m not a therapist but in my opinion, Commodus had narcissistic personality disorder. Probably was neglected as a child because being a good King took priority for Marcus. A ingrained thought "I'm not good enough". I will be king when father is dead and I will be better than him. He thought being the opposite of his dad by being bold, and cruel would distinguish himself and reject his dad (easier to be better). If Marcus was giving, Commodus was taking. His inability to accept and learn from his dad or his own failures made his downfall sad but unsurprising. I'm sure Marcus tried to teach his son key philosophies but his son secretly rejected the philosophies and played his father. Bidding his time.
Wasn't really His choice. Marcus was pulled away by all the wars He had to wage. That doesn't leave a lot of time with the family. If Marcus was around another ten years then maybe some course correction could have happened but unfortunately He died before He could truly impart His wisdom on Commodus
@WildMen4444 i don't like this argument. The fact he was always at war doesn't mean he was doing the right thing, it means he wasn't that great of general. Didn't lose but took 20 years to win.
@@jackjohnson40I mean, I'm no general, but I feel like most geopolitical conflicts aren't so easily put to rest. Not to mention, it's my understanding that Marcus was dealing with multiple conflicts. War in real life isn't like in videogames where you kill a few guys and you finish the objective. It takes time and resources.
You’d think that someone with such a strong philosophical background and experience , the LAST thing he would have done was have his own son take over his reign 🤨🤔🤦♂️
Clearly Marcus failed him as his father, he could’ve prevented Commodus from feeling entitled if he had been around more. Bringing Commodus to a war at such a tender age was a serious mistake seeing as how it desensitized him to brutality. Commodus’s faults were largely the result of Marcus’s failure as a father. Also it’s understandable how much pressure Commodus felt having to live up to his father’s legacy, to be constantly compared to his father, I can empathize with him on that.
Sometimes it's more nature than nurture... Even today, someone can be raised with a near perfect upbringing, and can end up the crackhead or serial killer that we're possibly always destined to be. Others can be born into abject squalor neglect and abuse, that only seems to forge their personal resolve, and can almost single-handedly claw their way to great heights. A lot of it, like in Commodus' case seems to revolve around being born into luxury, privilege, and sloth. I've been managing automotive manufacturing plants for the better part of my 24 year career. I was born and raised about as poor as a person can possibly be in modern-day America. Because of that, I've never inherited a dime, nor had anybody to rely, or fall back on if I failed. So I always worked as much and as hard as I could, out of a natural drive to feel like I was gradually clawing my way ahead, and had a cushion in case of hard times. But it can't just be nurture. I and one of my brothers were successful. The other two ended up unemployable alcoholic crackheads, constantly in and out of jail, or living as transients and squatters. Conversely though, I can't even tell you how many companies I've worked for or with, where I always notice a similar pattern... Either the old man who founded the company from nothing, in his 80's, showing nearly every day at the crack of dawn, a multimillionaire, in a worn out old shop uniform, to spend half his time walking the production floor and looking through scrap hoppers nitpicking to death even the slightest signs of waste. His kids don't want to work their way up the ranks, learning the trades, so they go off to college, only to come back, disinterested, and run the old man's company straight into the ground a few years after he dies, or is too feeble to come in anymore. ...Then they either lose everything to creditors, or have every asset auctioned off, to run off with one final payout. A medium to large operation like that making it to a third generation of family ownership, and being run by the grandkids, poorly or otherwise, is as rare as hen's teeth. Whereas a small, tight-knit family-run specialty shop, where every person in the family can earn a good, Upper-middle-class living, but they all have to learn the trade and keep consistently working to do so, can usually go on much longer, depending upon various other factors. But in my life's experience, Success/Failure, Work-Ethic/Laziness, Virtue/Degeneracy, really does seem to be based upon about 50/50 Nature/Nurture. It's somewhat a roll of the dice.🤷♂️
Often times the meaningful things people focus on are gaps they see within themselves. Marcus was observant in seeing a lot of these flaws within himself. No doubt this manifested into his son.
Hard Times Create Strong Men. Strong Men Create Good Times. Good Times Create Weak Men. Weak Men Create Hard Times. ...And that cycle really does seem to repeat itself about every four generations or so. ...Almost Like Clockwork...🤔 Guess Which Part Of The Cycle We Would Be In Now.😅
Hey i was looking into your video on the prince by machiavelli in todays language and found it very interesting, i was wondering if you would ever do another book like that, like the sickness unto death by søren kierkegaard or the brother karamazov by dostoevesky
Thank you for this excellent video! Why do you think MA departed from the tradition of adopting someone he felt would be an excellent emperor, especially since he had to have seen the limitations of his son? It’s interesting, and disturbing, too that such a wise person would raise such a terrible son.
This is pure guesswork, but he probably chose Commodus to establish a dynastic lineage and ensure stability. Despite Commodus' flaws, he might have felt pressured by politics. Plus, his Stoic beliefs might have made him accept Commodus as fate.
@@DavidAmster To be fair, what exactly would Marcus Aurelius have seen that would make Him say Commodus shouldn't be emperor? Commodus was a teenager. How many teenage boys do you know that aren't assholes sometimes? Marcus probably just thought it was all a phase and that Commodus would grow out of it at some point.
Nero who later killed his own mother was a good emperor only in the first years. Hadrian was a bad emperor in his last years. But he wisely chose Marcus Aurelius as successor , and Antoninus Pius as his own direct successor until Marcus had the right age. The bad choice of Commodus resembles the choice by Gandhi of despicable Nehru, who Kennedy compared to a moralizing preacher caught leaving a brothel. When Nehru visited Kennedy and the latter asked him for advice on the war in Indochina Nehru ignored the question and its repetition. Augustus chose the able general Tiberius as successor who became a bad emperor. When dead Romans shouted "Tiberius in to the Tiber " to dispose of his corpse with ignominy. The short list of best rulers includes emperor Ashoka, Augustus, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Charlemagne, Saladdin and perhaps Sargon the Great, Perikles and emperor Charles V.
Sometimes I suspect that Marcus Aurelius chose Commodus to reign after him because of the seven other children Marcus lost before Commodus was born due to the Antonine plague. I think Marcus Aurelius was just so distraught of burring seven of his fourteen children so soon, that after seeing Commodus get through his illness as a child, he decided to make Commodus his co-emperor ensuring that at least he would have the best possible life in the world. It's just a shame that in doing so, Marcus chose the polar opposite of himself to rule the empire.
So are we getting a discussion of Gladiator 2 soon? I'd like to learn why on Earth they went with Caracalla and Geta when they clearly wanted Heliogabalus as the emperor. I mean, clearly that costume design is supposed to be Heliogabalus.
@@TheLegendaryLore Neither will I. I just thought I'd mention it. I don't get too many opportunities in my daily life to complain about people conflating members of the Severan dynasty
Summary : Commodus was one of the only great mistakes Marcus Aurelius ever did . Commodus didnt have any real personal development, unlike his father. Its as if Marcus threw all his bad traits and habits at commodus so Marcus would not do those things himself .
@@TheLegendaryLore - in Herodian of Antioch's account, Commodus wife found out she was going to be executed by him when a little boy played with the tablet he wrote the order on and she found it " After composing his list, Commodus placed the tablet on his couch, thinking that no one would come into his bedroom. But there was in the palace a very young little boy, one of those who went about bare of clothes but adorned with gold and costly gems. The Roman voluptuaries always took delight in these lads. Commodus was very fond of this child and often slept with him; his name, Philocommodus, clearly indicates the emperor's affection for him. Philocommodus was playing idly about the palace. After Commodus had gone out to his usual baths and drinking bouts, the lad wandered into the emperor's bedroom, as he usually did; picking up the tablet for a plaything, he left the bedroom. By a stroke of fate, he met Marcia. After hugging and kissing him (for she too was fond of the child), she took the tablet from him, afraid that in his heedless play he might accidentally erase something important. When she recognized the emperor's handwriting, she was eager to read the tablet"
Thank you for bringing up a niche within a niche. Commodus got everything while having to work for nothing. It reminds me of our modern day and how feminism has enabled useless women to brag about how useless they are while believing there are no repercussion for their actions. Both Commodus and Western Civilization in 2024 are identical. Marcus and the old West were brilliant, Commodus and today's Western Civilization are both degenerates which are rotting as fast as they can spread. Am I cynical in my assessment or can I just spot the truth before most people do?
@@TheLegendaryLore I have tried to work this thought process out and I have not been able to find a solution other than our current society is going to, whether we like it or not, succumb to the ebbs and flows of Marcus and Commodus. Marcus understood virtue, I love the book Meditations because Marcus is one of the few men in human history who was both righteous and selfless, in other words he didn't know his private diary would ever become common knowledge so he wrote without pride in the highest position of power. You put this video up because you care, am I wrong in my understanding? Or are we headed for a crisis the likes of which hasn't happened since WW2?
@@3Kefka6Palazzo9 All I have is guesswork. Maybe everything will be fine even in the short run, but there doesn't really seem to be a way back to normalcy. I suspect things will have to fall apart entirely at this point, so I've made an effort to (hopefully) avoid the worst of the downfall. Civilizations collapse all the time, we've been naive to think it wouldn't happen again.
@@TheLegendaryLore I'm just hoping that when it all falls apart it gives me grounds to contest having to pay my student loans. Why would I be looking for grounds to contest? Because I'm too cynical to think someone won't still try to collect
@@WildMen4444 A while ago, I spent some time reading about people's direct experiences with conflicts and other crises. In almost every case, people still had to go to work, pay bills, and so on. The only exceptions were momentary disruptions when the situation became too dangerous or when infrastructure was severely impacted. Soon after, if they survived, they would return to their obligations to make ends meet.
You're subtlety of trying to compare Commodus to Donald Trump wasn't that subtle, and gives me pause to what your true motives are it's not educating the masses with truth
I admit the comparison should fall flat simply because you really can't compare a Roman emperor with someone like Trump. Especially someone like Commodus.There's no common ground. That being said however I'm no fan of Trump either and I certainly will not vote for him.
"The greatest remedy for anger is delay." - Seneca.
Simple and solid advice.
True.
ie trump & farrage the mirrage
Marcus Aurelius passed the Empire to Commodus for logical reasons. Folks tend to discuss the "Five Good Emperors" as being good because they chose the best person to succeed them rather than passing power to their children, but when you examine it, none of them had sons except Marcus. NOT passing the torch to Commodus would have caused a civil war since there would be a disaffected direct heir to the throne willing to fight to take his inheritance. Commodus was initially popular with the military, so it was expected that he would become Emperor anyway. At least passing the torch peacefully would allow for the chance that peace could be maintained. Some folks have asked why Marcus did not execute Commodus, but Commodus was his son, after all. Even aside from the human aspect of not wanting to kill your own kid, killing a family member was religiously forbidden, and would have disrupted Marcus's own reign. The best Marcus could do was hope Commodus would come to his senses and heed the teaching Marcus had given him. Unfortunately, he did not.
Commodus was spoiled. It often happens to people who were born into super-rich families.
I''m not a therapist but in my opinion, Commodus had narcissistic personality disorder. Probably was neglected as a child because being a good King took priority for Marcus. A ingrained thought "I'm not good enough". I will be king when father is dead and I will be better than him. He thought being the opposite of his dad by being bold, and cruel would distinguish himself and reject his dad (easier to be better). If Marcus was giving, Commodus was taking. His inability to accept and learn from his dad or his own failures made his downfall sad but unsurprising. I'm sure Marcus tried to teach his son key philosophies but his son secretly rejected the philosophies and played his father. Bidding his time.
Greatness casts a long unforgiving shadow. Great video and analysis as always, thank you Legendary Lore.
Thank you, brother!
That might explain trying and failing, and eventually ending up dejected... But as in Commodus' case, Some People Are Just *Born Bad.*
I would have thought Marcus Aurelius would have been a better father than this. He should have raised him better.
Wasn't really His choice. Marcus was pulled away by all the wars He had to wage. That doesn't leave a lot of time with the family. If Marcus was around another ten years then maybe some course correction could have happened but unfortunately He died before He could truly impart His wisdom on Commodus
@WildMen4444 i don't like this argument. The fact he was always at war doesn't mean he was doing the right thing, it means he wasn't that great of general. Didn't lose but took 20 years to win.
@@jackjohnson40I mean, I'm no general, but I feel like most geopolitical conflicts aren't so easily put to rest. Not to mention, it's my understanding that Marcus was dealing with multiple conflicts. War in real life isn't like in videogames where you kill a few guys and you finish the objective. It takes time and resources.
He got the plague and sent his son away so he wouldn't get it and fired all his fathers advisors
You’d think that someone with such a strong philosophical background and experience , the LAST thing he would have done was have his own son take over his reign 🤨🤔🤦♂️
"Zalimden alim, alimden zalim doğar."
"It's hard to put a dog to heal once you put a crown on it head" Tyrion Lannister
Does history show that Marcus himself had little actual time with Commodus? A great leader but an absent father?
Clearly Marcus failed him as his father, he could’ve prevented Commodus from feeling entitled if he had been around more. Bringing Commodus to a war at such a tender age was a serious mistake seeing as how it desensitized him to brutality. Commodus’s faults were largely the result of Marcus’s failure as a father. Also it’s understandable how much pressure Commodus felt having to live up to his father’s legacy, to be constantly compared to his father, I can empathize with him on that.
Sometimes it's more nature than nurture... Even today, someone can be raised with a near perfect upbringing, and can end up the crackhead or serial killer that we're possibly always destined to be.
Others can be born into abject squalor neglect and abuse, that only seems to forge their personal resolve, and can almost single-handedly claw their way to great heights.
A lot of it, like in Commodus' case seems to revolve around being born into luxury, privilege, and sloth.
I've been managing automotive manufacturing plants for the better part of my 24 year career. I was born and raised about as poor as a person can possibly be in modern-day America. Because of that, I've never inherited a dime, nor had anybody to rely, or fall back on if I failed. So I always worked as much and as hard as I could, out of a natural drive to feel like I was gradually clawing my way ahead, and had a cushion in case of hard times. But it can't just be nurture. I and one of my brothers were successful. The other two ended up unemployable alcoholic crackheads, constantly in and out of jail, or living as transients and squatters.
Conversely though, I can't even tell you how many companies I've worked for or with, where I always notice a similar pattern... Either the old man who founded the company from nothing, in his 80's, showing nearly every day at the crack of dawn, a multimillionaire, in a worn out old shop uniform, to spend half his time walking the production floor and looking through scrap hoppers nitpicking to death even the slightest signs of waste.
His kids don't want to work their way up the ranks, learning the trades, so they go off to college, only to come back, disinterested, and run the old man's company straight into the ground a few years after he dies, or is too feeble to come in anymore. ...Then they either lose everything to creditors, or have every asset auctioned off, to run off with one final payout.
A medium to large operation like that making it to a third generation of family ownership, and being run by the grandkids, poorly or otherwise, is as rare as hen's teeth.
Whereas a small, tight-knit family-run specialty shop, where every person in the family can earn a good, Upper-middle-class living, but they all have to learn the trade and keep consistently working to do so, can usually go on much longer, depending upon various other factors.
But in my life's experience, Success/Failure, Work-Ethic/Laziness, Virtue/Degeneracy, really does seem to be based upon about 50/50 Nature/Nurture.
It's somewhat a roll of the dice.🤷♂️
Thanks!
Thank you so much, brother!
Very interesting psychology. Thanks for your continuing work, L.L.
Glad you enjoyed it, Wendy :)
Often times the meaningful things people focus on are gaps they see within themselves. Marcus was observant in seeing a lot of these flaws within himself. No doubt this manifested into his son.
Great human beings came from Hard Past.! 👑✨
I Really appreciate your channel..! 👍🏻
Hard Times Create Strong Men.
Strong Men Create Good Times.
Good Times Create Weak Men.
Weak Men Create Hard Times.
...And that cycle really does seem to repeat itself about every four generations or so.
...Almost Like Clockwork...🤔
Guess Which Part Of The Cycle We Would Be In Now.😅
Nice... I'm down to learn about this!!!
@Legendary Lore You list the seven best roman emperors and Augustus is not among them?
Hey i was looking into your video on the prince by machiavelli in todays language and found it very interesting, i was wondering if you would ever do another book like that, like the sickness unto death by søren kierkegaard or the brother karamazov by dostoevesky
Thank you.
Thank you for this excellent video! Why do you think MA departed from the tradition of adopting someone he felt would be an excellent emperor, especially since he had to have seen the limitations of his son? It’s interesting, and disturbing, too that such a wise person would raise such a terrible son.
This is pure guesswork, but he probably chose Commodus to establish a dynastic lineage and ensure stability. Despite Commodus' flaws, he might have felt pressured by politics. Plus, his Stoic beliefs might have made him accept Commodus as fate.
@@DavidAmster To be fair, what exactly would Marcus Aurelius have seen that would make Him say Commodus shouldn't be emperor? Commodus was a teenager. How many teenage boys do you know that aren't assholes sometimes? Marcus probably just thought it was all a phase and that Commodus would grow out of it at some point.
So I guess there's one issue with hereditary transfer of office.
Nero who later killed his own mother was a good emperor only in the first years. Hadrian was a bad emperor in his last years. But he wisely chose Marcus Aurelius as successor , and Antoninus Pius as his own direct successor until Marcus had the right age. The bad choice of Commodus resembles the choice by Gandhi of despicable Nehru, who Kennedy compared to a moralizing preacher caught leaving a brothel. When Nehru visited Kennedy and the latter asked him for advice on the war in Indochina Nehru ignored the question and its repetition. Augustus chose the able general Tiberius as successor who became a bad emperor. When dead Romans shouted "Tiberius in to the Tiber " to dispose of his corpse with ignominy. The short list of best rulers includes emperor Ashoka, Augustus, Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, Charlemagne, Saladdin and perhaps Sargon the Great, Perikles and emperor Charles V.
Sometimes I suspect that Marcus Aurelius chose Commodus to reign after him because of the seven other children Marcus lost before Commodus was born due to the Antonine plague. I think Marcus Aurelius was just so distraught of burring seven of his fourteen children so soon, that after seeing Commodus get through his illness as a child, he decided to make Commodus his co-emperor ensuring that at least he would have the best possible life in the world. It's just a shame that in doing so, Marcus chose the polar opposite of himself to rule the empire.
son, I am disappoint
Ave Divus Commodus!
So this was who Gladiator was about. Interesting
Are you not entertained? Are you NOT entertained?
So are we getting a discussion of Gladiator 2 soon? I'd like to learn why on Earth they went with Caracalla and Geta when they clearly wanted Heliogabalus as the emperor. I mean, clearly that costume design is supposed to be Heliogabalus.
I probably won't be watching it TBH.
@@TheLegendaryLore Neither will I. I just thought I'd mention it. I don't get too many opportunities in my daily life to complain about people conflating members of the Severan dynasty
@@WildMen4444 I honestly haven't even watched the trailer or read the plot, so I can't comment 😄
@@WildMen4444 I honestly haven't even watched the trailer or read the plot, so I can't comment 😄
@@TheLegendaryLore Long Story Short: they made Caracalla a femboy
Biden should consider an MMA career.
Summary : Commodus was one of the only great mistakes Marcus Aurelius ever did . Commodus didnt have any real personal development, unlike his father. Its as if Marcus threw all his bad traits and habits at commodus so Marcus would not do those things himself .
What was he doing with that little boy who found the execution list :S
A boy?
@@TheLegendaryLore - in Herodian of Antioch's account, Commodus wife found out she was going to be executed by him when a little boy played with the tablet he wrote the order on and she found it
" After composing his list, Commodus placed the tablet on his couch, thinking that no one would come into his bedroom. But there was in the palace a very young little boy, one of those who went about bare of clothes but adorned with gold and costly gems. The Roman voluptuaries always took delight in these lads. Commodus was very fond of this child and often slept with him; his name, Philocommodus, clearly indicates the emperor's affection for him. Philocommodus was playing idly about the palace. After Commodus had gone out to his usual baths and drinking bouts, the lad wandered into the emperor's bedroom, as he usually did; picking up the tablet for a plaything, he left the bedroom. By a stroke of fate, he met Marcia. After hugging and kissing him (for she too was fond of the child), she took the tablet from him, afraid that in his heedless play he might accidentally erase something important. When she recognized the emperor's handwriting, she was eager to read the tablet"
Ha ha ha ho ho ho hee hee hee 🦈
Thank you for bringing up a niche within a niche. Commodus got everything while having to work for nothing. It reminds me of our modern day and how feminism has enabled useless women to brag about how useless they are while believing there are no repercussion for their actions.
Both Commodus and Western Civilization in 2024 are identical. Marcus and the old West were brilliant, Commodus and today's Western Civilization are both degenerates which are rotting as fast as they can spread.
Am I cynical in my assessment or can I just spot the truth before most people do?
I fully agree that we can draw a lot of parallels between the late Roman Republic and current time. It's a bit scary.
@@TheLegendaryLore I have tried to work this thought process out and I have not been able to find a solution other than our current society is going to, whether we like it or not, succumb to the ebbs and flows of Marcus and Commodus.
Marcus understood virtue, I love the book Meditations because Marcus is one of the few men in human history who was both righteous and selfless, in other words he didn't know his private diary would ever become common knowledge so he wrote without pride in the highest position of power.
You put this video up because you care, am I wrong in my understanding? Or are we headed for a crisis the likes of which hasn't happened since WW2?
@@3Kefka6Palazzo9 All I have is guesswork. Maybe everything will be fine even in the short run, but there doesn't really seem to be a way back to normalcy. I suspect things will have to fall apart entirely at this point, so I've made an effort to (hopefully) avoid the worst of the downfall.
Civilizations collapse all the time, we've been naive to think it wouldn't happen again.
@@TheLegendaryLore I'm just hoping that when it all falls apart it gives me grounds to contest having to pay my student loans. Why would I be looking for grounds to contest? Because I'm too cynical to think someone won't still try to collect
@@WildMen4444 A while ago, I spent some time reading about people's direct experiences with conflicts and other crises. In almost every case, people still had to go to work, pay bills, and so on. The only exceptions were momentary disruptions when the situation became too dangerous or when infrastructure was severely impacted.
Soon after, if they survived, they would return to their obligations to make ends meet.
:)
You're subtlety of trying to compare Commodus to Donald Trump wasn't that subtle, and gives me pause to what your true motives are it's not educating the masses with truth
I admit the comparison should fall flat simply because you really can't compare a Roman emperor with someone like Trump. Especially someone like Commodus.There's no common ground. That being said however I'm no fan of Trump either and I certainly will not vote for him.
Repeat repeat repeat. Meh