Drake has always been a character that people buy into.. problem is Drake bought into it too and now he probably sees reflections of himself in the mirror talking to him like he’s The Green Goblin.
@jessebaughman3636 We about to see him in church attire on his next album talking about “I just looked in the mirror.. and I didn’t like the guy that was looking back”
This shouldn’t change anyone’s perspective on Drake. We all knew that he had ghost writers, we all knew that he was swagger jacking and we all knew that Drake is more of a concept than anything else. The issue is with all of these collaborators and access to the best beats why does the music suck?
Stfu this should change everyone's perspective on Drake. He claims to be the goat, the best rapper, etc. This motherfucker doesn't even write his shit. You can't be a goat rapper when you don't write your rhymes. You and Shawn need to stop moving goal posts for Drake
You should've done this script for Shawn mate. I'd be lying to myself if I didn't at least see where the folk who read this the way they did are coming from. My first thoughts before I took a step back was Shawn had caught the "Akademiks" lol
there is value in curation -- the ability to choose collaborators that are correct and appropriate for a project is a skill in itself that not many possess. it's not really an issue in most art, because most art is collaborative. only very few art is truly individual -- even writing as one person goes through editors, cover designers etc. even a lone painter gets help and queues from inspirations, exhibitors, buyers, etc. the problem is, when you front as if you are the sole maker of your art. you beat your chest and say you're the best, in an art form where self-expression is key and your listeners assume that what the hear from you is your own thoughts and expressions.
I don’t have an issue with reference tracks, Kendrick appears to do them for his songs. Granted it’s him over the beat doing the verse himself and coming up with his flow while doing it. I don’t have issues with collaborators either, what TPAB has multiple collabs from various musicians, producers, and engineers. It’s more the sense of where does Drake fit into his own collaborative process I am questioning. Are you just the voice for the flows and melodies being brought to you by other artists is where I would be looking at him differently. Especially in a genre that prides itself on its authenticity. If Drake is writing the lyrics, then I would be questioning then how can you not have the flow or the melody in your head? I get him possibly needing collaborators given the rate at which he is pumping out music rn. Yet if you are just pumping out uninspired music even with collaborators then it shows. Maybe Drake needs to take a couple years off from music until he can come back and write something that sounds more inspired.
I think it’s completely fair to question how much Drake is giving to these songs, which should be the entire point. It’s this assumption that the only reason someone wants a reference is because they don’t know how to write lyrics to a song I take issue with.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE That’s fair some of my friends who are singers will hum over instrumentals just to get an idea of where they want a melody to fit in. That or just speak jibberish over it to get a rough idea of how it will sound. I may just be looking at this a bit differently given Vory’s voice is auto tuned and the cut while rough in some parts is still pretty fleshed out in comparison to other reference tracks I have heard. Yet I will openly admit my bias against Drake and me not having a high opinion of him as an artist.
@@ShawnCeeLIVEI know Drake can write, that's what makes it disappointing to me. I want to hear Drake's pen, not Vory or Quentin Miller or Lil Yachty. Like to me it just sucks for the fans who really connected with those songs because they believed they were the complete brainchild, at least lyrically, of Drake; that they came from his emotions and his feelings and his thoughts. I'll be honest, I don't like Akademiks, but I legitimately felt sad watching him go over the reference track. You can tell it really hurts, y'know?
I don’t think ghostwriters are bad necessarily, but lying on the other hand and creating this fake persona just to be accepted by the culture I look at totally different.
ghostwriters are bad when you're in a field where you're supposed to write your own lyrics.... It's like if you are a poet and you move people to tears...and then it turns out you didn't write any of the poems.
No writers in a genre about authenticity and being you is always bad and I honestly feel like if you think otherwise you're just moving the goalpost for your favorite artist.
“I was under the impression that everyone wrote their own verses” “I stumbled and lived every verse was I working way too hard?” There are artists like Andre, Kendrick, Jada, guys that take time to make this art form that is hip hop to make it as authentic as possible. Rap is supposed to be the REALEST genre of music because these are stories that people live. They are the instrumentals to people’s lives and when this stuff comes out it’s further proves that the masses don’t care about the rap in its purest form, it’s just the wave right now.
To say that the best hip hop is made by people who have writers is a big slight to every MC that has made classic and renown albums without this level of lyrical and structural assistance. Also, the point about Drake supposedly giving his writers lyrics and having them come up with the flow makes no sense to me. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any differences in the lyrics from the references vs the actual songs.
Do you not know how song writing or credits work? You think a writer pens every verse, line and thought without revisions or that a draft/reference will be the final cut? Writers don’t revise their own lyrics? Y’all are losing me with these takes. Also saying the best hip hop is made by using collaborations isn’t a slight to anyone doing it solo. How could you come to that conclusion lmao
@@ShawnCeeLIVEdo you not think collaboration is different than just repeating the lyrics bar for bar? My issue is that with these reference tracks, it seems as though Drake literally took the song without ANY of his own input, or at least input that’s significant enough to separate the two versions. And again, when it comes to being the best MC or lyricist, I do think it matters if the bars that you write are verbatim taken from someone else or not because lyrics are a huge part of being an MC. Of course there are other aspects to it, and you can definitely have people revise it, but these two songs sound borderline identical. I just think Drake doesn’t put enough of his own creative input here, I don’t have an issue with him getting help per se
@@ShawnCeeLIVE Revisions are made of course, I've heard plenty OG versions of songs that artists laid down that sound different from the finished version, but the fact that there's already another writer present leads me to believe that they produced lyrics as well and they probably ended up somewhere in the final version; I personally don't have any good faith to believe that it didn't. Also, I don't believe that the best hip hop has been made through collaborations, so when I hear you say that artists are doing themselves a disservice or limiting their art by doing it solo, it comes off like a slight, especially when the topic is Drake, whose final product is still lacking despite all the help. I understand that wasn't your intention though.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE Is it hard typing out these paragraphs with Drake's meat in you? Those pumps he's giving you are the most original thing Drake's ever done.
@@Abdullah-vg1ucBut he also claims to be the better MC against Kendrick, which can never be true if you have writers on some of your best work. Writers period tbh. That’s their point.
You got it wrong man. You can’t be the GOAT or claim to be a top tier lyricists in HIPHOP yet have writers. Maybe in Pop. But not hiphop. Also Kanye has never claimed to be the best lyricist or rapper. Just the best artist, he’s been honest about his writers too. Big difference.
Y’all don’t listen to music, he’s said those exact words before lmao loud and wrong. Also Vory and Quentin were credited and their contributions have been public for years lmao
Kanye has said this plenty of times but, no one considers him a top lyricist either. Ppl look at Kanye as the GOAT of producers. Drake on the other hand has ppl actually calling him the GOAT rapper bc of sales. The two aren’t the same.
@@ShawnCeeLIVEalso how tf does them gettin credited matter lmao? U jus said that for no reason. We don’t care if they credited, n the comment didn’t say nothin bout credits. It’s talkin bout writers n bein considered the goat in rap/hip hop.
One of the reasons I started watching you was because of how critical and thoughtful you reviewed one of lupe albums which isn’t common when people review a lupe project. If I found out you didn construct those thoughts yourself I’d look at you different.
I understand having people write for you or assist in the writing process every artist has it but the fact on some of Drake's biggest songs his flows, melodies, cadences all that would make Drake's vocals original was manufactured by underappreciated and frankly exploited artists is crazy. At this point what makes Drake different from those pages that post AI covers of songs.
@@dre27321When you are as big as Drake is and pulled in as much money he does, I guaran-damn-tee every single one of those writers were underpaid for their worth and contribution to Drake’s bottom line and future overall lol.
@@sojaabrams599The purpose of a reference isn’t limited to lyrics, vocal adjustments, flow, inflections are all used to repurpose a song, which is why I don’t understand so many people being hung up on lyrics where no one knows who wrote what.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE I'm merely pointing out that it makes little sense to hire someone to perform lyrics you wrote on a track when, if you wrote the lyrics, you could just make the reference track yourself and adjust it overtime? I'm not sure why that's specifically something you *need* someone else for, unless they also wrote the lyrics
This man does mental gymnastics with the ghostwriters/ref track situation. Kanye has said he’s the BEST ARTIST not rapper. To be best RAPPER you cannot have writers because the KEY to being the BEST is having the LYRICS. The writing portion. If you are a singer or producer it’s different because the SINGING VOICE is important not the lyrical aspect FIRST. Imagine if you found out Whitney Houston had ghost singers and had fake vocals via computers or something. You’d be deceived. C’mon son!!!!
Cmon son nothing, i been listening to Kanye since 05 and on graduation he called himself a TOP 5 EMCEE on Barry bonds with Wayne. Listen to it again, yall are delusional
@@romaretaylor9953 I mean even if we grant that he started off that way, nobody , not even his own fans, believe he's allowed in the top MC conversation.
@@Vageta1999yea I know, but he still said it and believed it, same with Drake back in the day, they both went in different directions. I’m not saying ye ain’t talented but Kanye used to believe this shit he’s on video cyphering with mos def in 07
Even if Kanye said he was the best who tf cares 😂 don’t mean we have to validate what he thinks about himself. Kanye also said he god is that supposed to move me because he said it?💀
“If I found out your whole persona and backstory was written by someone else I’d take issue with that” … so… you do get why people have an issue with Drake? That’s his whole shtick 😭
I think your point's valid in some instances. For example, I don't view Q-Tip as a worse rapper because he was part of a group, and presumably collaborated both sonically and lyrically with those guys. I don't view Forever as a worse song because multiple verses were re-written in response to one another. Collaboration is a healthy part of music. But when it comes to the art of rapping, its different. Reminds me of the anecdote where Em cleared the room out at the studio so he could literally watch Kendrick write his verse. He needed to see it was his mind, his words, his ideas. Otherwise he's just a performer, which isn't inherently bad, but not the same. To use another genre as an example, can you imagine if Bob Dylan or Taylor Swift credited most of their lyrics to other writers? Like they're good performers and all, but that is NOT what they're known for. If someone brands themselves a songwriter, you gotta write the songs If you brand yourself an MC you gotta write the bars. If Drake is okay being seen as a performer, that's fine, but it makes the self-seriousness with which he views himself all the more cringe and weird.
Shawn you’re being dangerous to the genre just like Akademiks. You’re willing to compromise and adjust hip hop canons so Drake grift can continue. You’re part of the problem. Drake is a karaoke artist as shown by all these reference tracks around. You need to stop finding excuses for Drake lazy and unauthentic scam operation in hip hop.
Drake went on a podcast with Lebron on it and said he made this track SPECIFICALLY by himself. That is what makes it crazy, not that he uses writers. Everyone already knew that.
@@semahjI mean in this instance it’s just hilarious because beforehand AK was saying the credited writers wrote nothing and it was all Drake, then fast forward this comes out 😂
I think you missed the point man, the best hip-hop to me is when it’s really personal, it’s like getting a glimpse to an artist mind. The idea of a bunch of writers cooking something up kills that for me.
The idea that people shouldn't care about writers/reference tracks because rap artists have some other nebulously defined talent and process that non-artists couldn't possibly comprehend is such a moronic cop out. Your condescension has been noted though.
The goal post moving for Drake is insane. If a reference track came out for "No Role Modelz" "Lose Yourself" or "DNA" etc. They woukd be getting slaughtered online. He can be a great artist, but the best Rapper of all time is ridiculous.
You can't say your the best rapper if you don't write your shit. But you can say your the best artist/performer. It's a rap culture thing, it's a rule for mcs if you take urself seriously as a rapper. Simple as that.
Drake has little credibility and that’s what Shawn is missing. Kendrick does all the things Shawn said are difficult for most artists to do on their own yet we’re shooting Drake a ton of bail when HE wants us to think he’s the better artist.
This isn’t about Kendrick and isn’t about shooting Drake bail if you finished the video you’d know that. It’s about the benefit of collaborations and credibility being a conversation on a credited track is hilarious to me
Having writers contribute to a body of work isn’t a problem until arguably one of your best albums in this case drakes take care has atleast 4 or more tracks written by The Weeknd
For Take Care it wasn’t that Abel wrote for Drake it was more like he gave him songs to finish, add verses and put on his own album + the Weeknd got listed as on those tracks too, it’s definitely not the same as the other stuff in discussion rn
@Abdullah-vg1uc yeah but I don’t think ppl are discussing the enjoyment. when Take Care came out ppl thought that Drake was actually putting his pen to these tracks and is the audience felt connected to the lyrics and Drake the rapper. This is why ppl say they felt that they grew with Drake. So it’s moreso about how the uniqueness of the songs are lost
My biggest issue with drake isn't his reference tracks it's the fact during the beef it was written by kendrick on every song and for drake it was more credits instead of flexing his "muscles" and it being a one on one . He lost my previous perception of him
Drake is NOT open about having writers, he denies it all the time but puts it in credits, and since most people dont look at credits, it insinuated that drake wrote his shi
Shawn straight gaslighting. If Drake were an illustrative artist, its like he's saying, "I dont see how tracing another person's art piece without context makes anyone think Drake didn't draw that shit." As a longtime Drake hater myself trying to be on the unbiased tip, using other things to hate Drake on is an easy and weak deflection to this defining narrative that Drake's credibility is irrevocably damaged. Name another real rapper/mc with 20 provable instances of this that were essentially glorified copy and paste type shits then niggas might reconsider, but your angle of a lack of context falls to his consistent pattern. We didnt need to see Cassie get beat by Diddy 20 times to need context, it only took one
You cannot call yourself an artist if you do not write your own music. It's like a label taking a homeless person from down the street/shelter, giving him a bath, clothes and a new cut, getting someone to write & produce for him/her, promote them and they just made a new star. Imagine if tomorrow it came out that Eminem, Kendrick, Nas and whoever top lyricist of all time is not writing their own shit, it's wraps. I don't know why people are surprised Drake got writers, Meek already exposed it and Push & Common/Budden (can't remember who) were already making references to that before Meek exposed it in their feud.
A painter is an artist too, they draw their own stuff. A producer makes their own beat/samples and adds their own touches. A mechanic fixes the car by himself/with other mechanics. You can not call yourself an artist if you do not write your own music. You're just a singer +dancer (if you add that to your character).
You're conflating working together to produce a song structurally and sonically, like from a production standpoint, and someone writing the lyrics for Drake. I think Drake can write, but he doesn't have the integrity to write everything because he's obsessed with quantity and numbers. Which has been a theme in the Kendrick Drake dicotomy. There's also a history with Drake stealing songs like with the weekend and quentin for example. So it's not a stretch to assume that's not the case here, it's the same with the creep shit, the reason those disses hit was due to his track record.
Shawn you’ve missed the point - the point is we know that Drake steals songs from artists and then also just sits on their careers so that the artist can’t thrive hence why it’s called the OVO sweatshop - he often doesn’t credit the writers - just this time he has - you’re trying to say that this is a ‘writing process’ it’s really not when it comes to Drake - he straight up just steals - also you mentioned Kendrick and Keem and if you listen to Kendrick reference track for Keem track they tried to release it’s just Kendrick humming jargon - and then later keems written his bars to fit in -that’s a writing process! Not Vory saying the bars word for word on what sounds like a finished track and then we hear drake performing the same exact thing even down to the damn adlibs?!???!! 🤦♀️
Kendrick has more than just one reference track for Keem, i have no clue what this is supposed to prove. Once again, you’re hearing a reference made by Vory with zero context as to what happened prior to making of said reference or how far into the writing/performance process Drake was already up to that point. Which is my biggest issue, y’all don’t know anything and are coming to these definite conclusions. It’s crazy to me.
I dont agree but your opinion does make sense. The bar for 'good music' should be higher for someone who has made huge hits before and is known for not having a problem with collaborators. But I would also say the standard should be different for people like Drake, and anyone else, who make themselves out to be more talented than they are. 'Give these niggas the look, the verse, and even the hook. That's why every song sounds like Drake featuring Drake,' as an example of Drake's confidence. You can't be this confident but still need 'help.' You can have multiple standards, just not double standards, basically.
A singer talent is their vocal ability, a rapper’s talent is their ability to write and flow. You wouldn’t pay money to see another artist rap someone else’s songs, but it is completely normal to pay money to see a singer sing another artist song. I don’t even understand how someone who writes the lyrics can’t form the flow to the words they wrote. Most songwriters either write the lyrics to the melody/music or have the melody already established for the lyrics they write. I would assume it is the the same for a rapper who writes their own rhymes. If a rapper is not writing or creating their flow, they are a glorified karaoke performer. It is crazy how hip hop fans aren’t able to comprehend this.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc how is his billions helping me? Why would I care about his billions then? Y’all always throw out how much money someone makes like it’s supposed to benefit us
Having worked in the publishing, me & people I’ve worked with have seen writing sessions where the person who laid a reference/topline didn’t necessarily write it all themselves either, (they only wrote a minority of it), but bc they laid it down, it gives the impression that they did the heavy lifting - that’s not always the case. If there are 5 writers on a song and they all agree to equals splits, who’s to know who did the lion share? It stays between them. 🤷🏾♂ Sometimes one writer (or the artist themselves) gets a bigger split so you assume they did the lions share - again not always the case bc I know cases where writers got bullied down on their splits, so that’s not always a reliable metric either.
Fine Shawn, Drake gets to keep his artistry card. But he loses his MC card and that's not even remotely up for debate. I'm so tired of y'all always trying to change the rules for people y'all like. (No saying Shawn is doing that. I know he doesn't really care for Drake like that)
Im my experience as someone who has rapped before, if you wrote it, you know how it flows. Drake writing it and then saying ‘figure out how this flows for me’ doesn’t make any sense. Vory likely wrote most of it. Im sure drake made contributions and we can’t be sure of the exact ratio as far as who wrote what, but i can assure you vory didn’t just perform it as a reference for what flows drake should use.
Yeah my writing process comes with the flow because otherwise it’s hard to see how the bars fit without rapping it out. I also take pride in developing the flow and melody of it even if it’s not singing. Drake is good at creating melody having written for many R&B artists so I wouldn’t even understand him writing a song and not just coming up with the melody himself since that seems to come easiest to him.
There's a difference between getting help and having the whole project being done for you. And then on top of it, some people haven't credited, some people claim he stole their whole shit, hell even Money to Blow has been shown to be ripped off of some unknown New York rapper and Drake claims it to be his own, without showing where it came from or who contributed what to it. That's where the issue lies. At the end of a movie, it goes out of its way to show you who held the microphones in the credits. I don't think it's unfair to ask these people to show who did what work.
Imagine Kobe tags in Michael Jordan to play for him, but still gets all the awards and accolades even though he didn’t play any of the games. That’s how I view drakes career.
people have been clowning dj khaled for years but he was really ahead of the curve in the creation process of modern hip-hop hits. invite a bunch of people to your house, have them make a song, jump on for a few seconds, then put it on your album and collect the lion's share of the royalties. a true visionary
I don’t care whether Vory just contributed the flow to existing lyrics or the whole song, either way I can’t give Drake credit for being a complete artist because what makes a great rap performance is cadence, flow, lyrics, voice, etc all of that. I write poetry and rap and so much thought is put into arranging the cadence and flow of a track beyond just writing. That makes or breaks a song. It’s why someone like Nicki got so popular because she came up with a unique style and cadence. Drake might have the potential to write hits on his own but the fact he doesn’t will always put an asterisk on his title.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc He's literally a pack of nothing but lies. He's the equivalent of the local Magician making bank off of the townspeople at the fair for years just for them to find out he's a complete fraud that tricked them. He's the Wizard of Oz.
you're defining midrick lol raps about "anti capitalism anti police" while having a 3Mn dollar crown and committing infidelity and domestic violence. midrick lamar is literally the reason why we need the police lmao
Hold up... "I dunno if Drake wrote the lyrics and had Vory record it so he would know how to flow" that statement makes ZERO sense. If he wrote it wouldn't he know how to say the thing HE wrote?! Y'all love shooting Drake a whole lot of bail when it comes to this rap shit.
I personally think that the reason why it matters to people is relative to the culture and to the way an artist approaches it. Hip Hop culture has a big focus on authenticity, that's why ghost writing allegations are taken very seriously (or at least they used to), but this depends on how upfront the artist is about it. That's why Kanye doesn't get shit on for it, he's very honest about what stuff "is his" and what isn't. We also need to think about what's the process each artist takes with it. If you're just getting someone else to punch up your stuff to make it more cohesive, or giving you ideas for flow, or giving you some rhymes that can connect the things you want to talk about is one thing; but having someone else write your story, or the majority of the story you present is the thing most people have problems with.
Because why tf would he need somebody else to record it if he did all of step 1 his self, Thats like writing a 5 paragraph essay for school then giving it to your homeboy to hand-in
@@Abdullah-vg1uc because all reference tracks that I’ve ever seen leaked was from the original writer or a person who just gave someone else the song. If you check Kanye’s references, Keems references, Travis’s references or future’s. None of these are assumed to be from the artist themselves. People write for them and show them the song. It could be an iterative process but the bulk of the writing is almost never done by the artist themselves. What likely happened is that drake had an idea and passed it off to vory to flesh it out. He liked it so much he probably took most of it as-is
@@Abdullah-vg1uc cause that would mean Drake would write a good portion or even all of a song and have absolutely no idea how it should be performed. In the case of needing a reference track it makes more sense that he was handed lyrics and needed an idea of how it’s supposed to go.
The problem with this is as a rapper your lyrics and flow is your talent. If you can’t do both of those at a higher level than your peers and you need people to give you your flows and lyrics and the whole world can hear it, it’s fair to question your entire discography. I can’t think of a rapper who’s had a lot of his good songs written or referenced by other people. At this point you have to call Drake a rap performer. When you combine the reference tracks with the fact that Drake gets destroyed by anyone with a decent pen (Push & Dot) in battles I say it’s fair to call the entire rap career in question. Fam Daylyte claimed he wrote back to back and that’s best diss track of his career.
Here’s the thing I disagree I think ppl who love hip hop don’t care if you got a writer and can’t make a song. If you do that though you have to be ok knowing there’s an asterisk on your name as one of the best and that’s ok you still made your millions you still got your fame your just not the best and the fact that ppl can’t take that’s point about artist they like is weird. No ones taking away his hits no one’s taking away his legacy no one’s taking away his talent thats just one area he can’t have.
The reason we hold emcees in such high regard is bcs their bars are their superpower. Their ability to think of clever ways to say things that wow us is what makes them special. If you take that away, they’re just performers. Producers who rap tend to get a pass bcs we feel that they’re producers first. In the pop and RnB world, the vocal and performance ability is more important. The difference with hip-hop is that 99% of the time the artist is telling their own story, and having someone else write something that you claim as your own takes away from the essence of hip-hop. That being said, all rappers collaborate. They work with producers, vocalists and instrumentalists. You can get help on intros, bridges, hooks etc but the verses are expected to come from the emcee. Otherwise, soon there will be no difference between hip-hop and pop.
I just go by what Busta Rhymes said, if someone else pen has touched your pad you cant be a goat MC. Drake is a pop star so he can have all the writers he wants
Nah you can't have contributions on most of your music then call "yourself" the greatest. You can say my team and I accomplished a lot but to say we should just glance over the fact that the actor has a team of people writing for him then multiple reference tracks come out but he can still say he's the greatest is ludicrous.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc I'm pretty sure the ones who pride themselves on being a true lyricist/Mc do ,they write and perform their own lyrics songs with their own unique style, flow and personality. I can't stand my generation aka Gen z because we want to be love and admired like icons and legends without having real talent and earning that respect first, We make excuse for everything and everyone who we like regardless of how fraudulent that person maybe. Second we prioritize beats flow over substance and quality because we're to lazy to think or we don't have the attention span or iq required to understand lyrically songs it's pathetic the Kendrick Lamar Drake beef showed you how ignorant and uninformed modern day rap fans are . Kendrick Lamar had to forced Gen z to go to genius to look at rap lyrics 😂
@@Abdullah-vg1uc No Drake needs to write for himself to get respect as a lyricist no excuses. Don't mention Kendrick Lamar with a fraud like Drake Kendrick Lamar ghost writers for other rappers but he doesn't make a big deal out of it because we know his pen is lethal.
For me its always been about authenticity, if you make a song about your family life and you have some basement ghostwriter who hasn't touched grass in 5 years writing that, it doesn't really make me feel like what they're saying is true or that they're relatable, it breaks this connection I have to the artist. If an artist is collaborating with someone and they're honest about it then I know who to give credit to when I say I like the song, thats why corporate music doesn't appeal to me, its less personal, its like a happy meal at mcdonalds when I could have my girlfriend cook me something she knows I like instead. I also think its important to put into context what the artist portray themselves as, like Dr Dre is a producer who like to hop on the beats he make and I think this adds to his personality, really makes him feel like its his song and that he's respected as an artist even though I'm sure most of the time they help him write his bars on it, its like a mutually beneficial relationship and since they're both on the beat it doesn't feel like they're hiding something.
Yes, I agree wirh you, in terms of the amount of work one actually does on a track/album. But the mob ties, running through the 6, were legit reference track created by someone else, drake just performed it, but when you look at the credits, Drake is listed as the top contributor (first name listed on the credits). That's the part that signifies an illusionist. Some commercial artist, Beyonce, Drake, pull the same thing, they add a "what", "the" and they automatically credit themselves as top contributors. Both of whom have been known to "steal", take credit for writing songs that they didn't write, ie, Irreplaceable. Where Kaney and Drake differ, is that Kanye is a musical collaborator, and always has been. Lyrically that's all him. The not so lyrical side of Kanye, all of the lights, for instance, is really not very thought out, it's just performative for the production, which is Kanye's main strength. Drake has been known to steal from a lot of people, insisting on taking tracks, ie the weeknd, through force. Kanye is known to credit everyone, even a random person in the studio (a delivery man for instance, it was in the Jeenus doc). It will be interesting to see what else comes out, cause this is bad.
the problem with this specific reference track is that it was a response to how the push t beef ended. J Prince ( the mob) had drake wave the white flag because he felt it was going to get ugly with the diss drake initially had he drops this on scorpion instead the lyrics are a clear indicator. Idc how you want to flip it shouldn't be no ghost writers or reference tracks when it comes to beefs and it then raises the question on if he had help with his disses towards kendrick making that 1v20 line even harder
People like to zoom in a lot for Drake regardless of the patterns that are clear. I agree that there's no context for what happened in this specific reference track. But I think in the larger context, it's not hard to place. The pattern is about him presenting himself to be something that he's not. Personally, i dont think he's as creative as his place in the culture and this art form would make people assume. And not enough to deserve that spot. Yes collaboration is necessary, we create nothing by ourselves. But the level of participation matters. And from these reference tracks, that's the pattern that emerges. That he just shows up and makes a few tweaks, like an editor instead of a writer. I think time will reveal this more, so I'm okay with people refusing to admit it yet.
In your opinion is there any there level of contribution that is too far? Is there any point where the consistent need for contributions reflects poorly on your own rapping ability?
Problem is people hear a reference track and treat it like the released version is just Drake or whoever essentially doing a cover of someone else’s song and calling it their own. That’s obviously not always the case, but that seems to be the perspective when they hear a drake song that appears to be a cover or “interpretation” of something from Future or PND or Vory or Quentin Miller. I don’t think it’s an issue bc at the end of the day with these artists, the voice is the instrument upon which they’re creating these sonic landscapes. Quentin don’t go as hard as Drake even if he rapped the bars first. Same goes for Kanye and a track he might’ve gotten from someone like CyHi or Consequence.
Finally a sensible take about this. Imo it comes down to transparency. If you credit yout collaborators, you're ok in my book. I think it's comparable to talkshow hosts or movie/show directors. There are names attached but everyone understands that there are a ton of people involved like writers, producers, musicians, etc etc. There usually is still ONE main name attached to the project but everyone understands that that it's a giant collaboration. I'm okay with music being created similarly. Once again, it comes down to transparency. I do think that it could often be more transparent but that is an industry issue if anything, not a Drake issue.
The thing I didn’t respect is they he didn’t credit Quentin until he was exposed. Also I used to be under the impression that a credit meant a small contribution, like you can say hey it would sound better if you said this word instead of that etc, but something about being sent 90% of the track doesn’t sit right with me. I get that’s the game now but I respect artists who can write consistently for themselves
That's a great point tbh, Dre and Kanye are well known to not write their own shit, it definitely does affect their place in the GOAT rapper convo, they come up in GOAT producer ones, but in any case, yeah, how do you have collaborators and access to the best people and still make shit.
Stop it Shawn. You cannot be the best if you have writers. Not saying he can't be a rapper or make music but to be the best MC is an artistic thing. You can still be a fan and still say he is out of the GOAT conversation. Ppl Andre 3000 not eligible to be the best because he doesn't have a solo album and Cole can't be the best after apologizing but Drake can still be the best with writers?
I agree with collaboration being key to good art. However, there is a thin line between collaboration and passing someone else's work off as your own. Going off just these reference tracks, it's impossible to say what side of the line Drake falls on. Like you said, we don't know if he had written out the lyrics beforehand and only worked with Vory on the flow. Based on Drake's reputation, I'm inclined to believe he falls on the side of taking credit for others work. That may not always have been the case, but at this point in his career I believe it to be true.
I feel like the context also really matters on this one. People have been giving Drake the excuse online that having ghostwriters is ok when it's not on a rapping track. AK on the JBP said that Mob Ties was one of the tracks that would make him feel "devastated" if he found out that Drake had a ghostwriter on it. A lot of people looked at this song as one of Drake's major comeback tracks post-Pusha T (I personally remember hearing it and being like 'oh shit is he subbing Kanye right after all of this? Idk if that's a good idea bro') and imo was a big part of his rebrand w/ the whole mobster Drake angle that he still rocks with. Hearing that a new evolution of Drake, even if it's one I thought was kind of goofy, was championed by someone else's whole vibe is very off-putting to me. I've had a love-hate relationship with Drake's music for a while but to me this one feels really disappointing. I get that the reference track could just be Drake giving Vory bars and then letting him perform, but it sounds distinctly unlike anything else Drake did up to that point, and we have other reference tracks like Yachty on Jumbotron Shit Poppin (plus Yachty coming out and saying that that sus-ass Megan bar was written by him and wasn't intentionally shading her) that show there's a pattern of behavior here. How many times does this have to happen before Drake loses the benefit of the doubt yknow?
I appreciate your objective take!! I know everyone hates Drake right now but what’s “exposed” isn’t new. We can only take things face value and don’t know what goes on during the creative process. There are interviews from big respected rappers admitting to having writers and writing for other artists. At least Drake provides credit to writers that have collaborated with him. We don’t know these artists and what goes on behind the scenes.
hot take, giving a flow is crazier than giving lyrics. forget telling me WHAT to say, youre telling me HOW to talk? Ratchet Happy Birthday is Drake’s worst song and Party made that. On top of that, Party has a reference track call 627 or something like that, where he clearly wrote the Drake verse on Company ft Travis. He was singing on a whole different beat with a different tone. Sorry dawg, your boy is getting shown how to talk, walk and dress by other artists.
If hip hop was a “sport”, then hip hop is the only sport you can win the MVP having someone else play for you.
That part
This comment is gold
happens all the time, jarvis varnado has a ring
mmmm
Sense has entered the chat
This just proves that drake is a brand, and Aubrey is an actor.
Drake has always been a character that people buy into.. problem is Drake bought into it too and now he probably sees reflections of himself in the mirror talking to him like he’s The Green Goblin.
@@firstlast9846 that’s a good way to put it, hopefully his undeniable defeat from Kendrick will humble him, but probably not.
@jessebaughman3636 We about to see him in church attire on his next album talking about “I just looked in the mirror.. and I didn’t like the guy that was looking back”
@@firstlast9846"I cried out to God from my soul... and it was all me no reference track"
😂
The music industry is a business
The sky is blue
Cuz God’s a crip
water is wet and heat is hot
OVO sweatshop pumps out out those hits bro lmao
Massa Drake 😂
@@Tre.kiing2024 so Kendrick is cacher freeman then🤣🤣
@@Tre.kiing2024 Using “massa” any kid is way is not funny at all, kid. It’s actually pretty pathetic and cringe.
This shouldn’t change anyone’s perspective on Drake. We all knew that he had ghost writers, we all knew that he was swagger jacking and we all knew that Drake is more of a concept than anything else. The issue is with all of these collaborators and access to the best beats why does the music suck?
Stfu this should change everyone's perspective on Drake. He claims to be the goat, the best rapper, etc. This motherfucker doesn't even write his shit. You can't be a goat rapper when you don't write your rhymes. You and Shawn need to stop moving goal posts for Drake
You should've done this script for Shawn mate. I'd be lying to myself if I didn't at least see where the folk who read this the way they did are coming from. My first thoughts before I took a step back was Shawn had caught the "Akademiks" lol
When the majority of your work is littered with collaboration, how is one to truly grasp how skilled you are on your own, as an artist?
the artist is the glue that holds it all together
Very few artists do everything themselves, it's a business once everyone goes mainstream
there is value in curation -- the ability to choose collaborators that are correct and appropriate for a project is a skill in itself that not many possess. it's not really an issue in most art, because most art is collaborative. only very few art is truly individual -- even writing as one person goes through editors, cover designers etc. even a lone painter gets help and queues from inspirations, exhibitors, buyers, etc.
the problem is, when you front as if you are the sole maker of your art. you beat your chest and say you're the best, in an art form where self-expression is key and your listeners assume that what the hear from you is your own thoughts and expressions.
Collaboration isn’t the issue, it’s copying someone’s notes and changing two words.
Do me a favor and go down the credits on Any rap artists track list
Water is wet…
😂😂😂
Fr
It's not...
"YOU FUCKIN HEATHEN!!"
Naruto 2024
@@M4X2COLDsky is blue?
I don’t have an issue with reference tracks, Kendrick appears to do them for his songs. Granted it’s him over the beat doing the verse himself and coming up with his flow while doing it. I don’t have issues with collaborators either, what TPAB has multiple collabs from various musicians, producers, and engineers. It’s more the sense of where does Drake fit into his own collaborative process I am questioning. Are you just the voice for the flows and melodies being brought to you by other artists is where I would be looking at him differently. Especially in a genre that prides itself on its authenticity. If Drake is writing the lyrics, then I would be questioning then how can you not have the flow or the melody in your head? I get him possibly needing collaborators given the rate at which he is pumping out music rn. Yet if you are just pumping out uninspired music even with collaborators then it shows. Maybe Drake needs to take a couple years off from music until he can come back and write something that sounds more inspired.
I think it’s completely fair to question how much Drake is giving to these songs, which should be the entire point. It’s this assumption that the only reason someone wants a reference is because they don’t know how to write lyrics to a song I take issue with.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE That’s fair some of my friends who are singers will hum over instrumentals just to get an idea of where they want a melody to fit in. That or just speak jibberish over it to get a rough idea of how it will sound. I may just be looking at this a bit differently given Vory’s voice is auto tuned and the cut while rough in some parts is still pretty fleshed out in comparison to other reference tracks I have heard. Yet I will openly admit my bias against Drake and me not having a high opinion of him as an artist.
@ShawnCeeLIVE we know Drake can write and produce, the issue is that some of his most popular songs are him copy and pasting
@@ShawnCeeLIVEI know Drake can write, that's what makes it disappointing to me. I want to hear Drake's pen, not Vory or Quentin Miller or Lil Yachty. Like to me it just sucks for the fans who really connected with those songs because they believed they were the complete brainchild, at least lyrically, of Drake; that they came from his emotions and his feelings and his thoughts. I'll be honest, I don't like Akademiks, but I legitimately felt sad watching him go over the reference track. You can tell it really hurts, y'know?
@@ShawnCeeLIVEdoing tricks on it 😂
Shawn in y’all replies with his sword and shield 😂😂😂
bro😂😂
Fighting for his life! 😰
Fr. Typing paragraphs on behalf of another grown man is crazy work. Cape doing backflips in the wind.
I expected this from Akademiks but not from Shawn. What a day. Why would he script the video like this? Oh my lanta.
It’s genuinely pathetic, why is bro defending a soulless groomer
I don’t think ghostwriters are bad necessarily, but lying on the other hand and creating this fake persona just to be accepted by the culture I look at totally different.
i think you mean writers, cause ghost writers are exactly what you just described lol
Facts no one would really care about drakes writers if he would stop claiming to be what he’s not.
The problem is havin “ghost writers” just have writers is fine but you have to make that your brand before you cant hide it then its a problem
ghostwriters are bad when you're in a field where you're supposed to write your own lyrics.... It's like if you are a poet and you move people to tears...and then it turns out you didn't write any of the poems.
No writers in a genre about authenticity and being you is always bad and I honestly feel like if you think otherwise you're just moving the goalpost for your favorite artist.
This is a slap to face for all the artist who write their own music.
“I was under the impression that everyone wrote their own verses” “I stumbled and lived every verse was I working way too hard?” There are artists like Andre, Kendrick, Jada, guys that take time to make this art form that is hip hop to make it as authentic as possible. Rap is supposed to be the REALEST genre of music because these are stories that people live. They are the instrumentals to people’s lives and when this stuff comes out it’s further proves that the masses don’t care about the rap in its purest form, it’s just the wave right now.
To say that the best hip hop is made by people who have writers is a big slight to every MC that has made classic and renown albums without this level of lyrical and structural assistance.
Also, the point about Drake supposedly giving his writers lyrics and having them come up with the flow makes no sense to me. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any differences in the lyrics from the references vs the actual songs.
Do you not know how song writing or credits work? You think a writer pens every verse, line and thought without revisions or that a draft/reference will be the final cut? Writers don’t revise their own lyrics? Y’all are losing me with these takes. Also saying the best hip hop is made by using collaborations isn’t a slight to anyone doing it solo. How could you come to that conclusion lmao
@@ShawnCeeLIVEdo you not think collaboration is different than just repeating the lyrics bar for bar? My issue is that with these reference tracks, it seems as though Drake literally took the song without ANY of his own input, or at least input that’s significant enough to separate the two versions. And again, when it comes to being the best MC or lyricist, I do think it matters if the bars that you write are verbatim taken from someone else or not because lyrics are a huge part of being an MC. Of course there are other aspects to it, and you can definitely have people revise it, but these two songs sound borderline identical. I just think Drake doesn’t put enough of his own creative input here, I don’t have an issue with him getting help per se
@@ShawnCeeLIVE Revisions are made of course, I've heard plenty OG versions of songs that artists laid down that sound different from the finished version, but the fact that there's already another writer present leads me to believe that they produced lyrics as well and they probably ended up somewhere in the final version; I personally don't have any good faith to believe that it didn't.
Also, I don't believe that the best hip hop has been made through collaborations, so when I hear you say that artists are doing themselves a disservice or limiting their art by doing it solo, it comes off like a slight, especially when the topic is Drake, whose final product is still lacking despite all the help. I understand that wasn't your intention though.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE Is it hard typing out these paragraphs with Drake's meat in you? Those pumps he's giving you are the most original thing Drake's ever done.
@@Abdullah-vg1ucBut he also claims to be the better MC against Kendrick, which can never be true if you have writers on some of your best work. Writers period tbh. That’s their point.
You got it wrong man. You can’t be the GOAT or claim to be a top tier lyricists in HIPHOP yet have writers. Maybe in Pop. But not hiphop.
Also Kanye has never claimed to be the best lyricist or rapper. Just the best artist, he’s been honest about his writers too. Big difference.
Y’all don’t listen to music, he’s said those exact words before lmao loud and wrong. Also Vory and Quentin were credited and their contributions have been public for years lmao
Even if the second half of his comment is wrong, the first half still stands. U can’t b a goat w writers plain n simple
Kanye has said this plenty of times but, no one considers him a top lyricist either. Ppl look at Kanye as the GOAT of producers. Drake on the other hand has ppl actually calling him the GOAT rapper bc of sales. The two aren’t the same.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE Quentin only got credited after he got exposed bro, Drake def was gonna let us believe he wrote dat shxt until then
@@ShawnCeeLIVEalso how tf does them gettin credited matter lmao? U jus said that for no reason. We don’t care if they credited, n the comment didn’t say nothin bout credits. It’s talkin bout writers n bein considered the goat in rap/hip hop.
One of the reasons I started watching you was because of how critical and thoughtful you reviewed one of lupe albums which isn’t common when people review a lupe project. If I found out you didn construct those thoughts yourself I’d look at you different.
I understand having people write for you or assist in the writing process every artist has it but the fact on some of Drake's biggest songs his flows, melodies, cadences all that would make Drake's vocals original was manufactured by underappreciated and frankly exploited artists is crazy. At this point what makes Drake different from those pages that post AI covers of songs.
Exploited might be a stretch you don’t know how they’re getting compensated for writing these songs
@@dre27321Quentin miller only got 30k for some songs that probably made drake millions lol
Quien only getting 30K for 6 songs is crazy all of them songs hit hard
@@dre27321When you are as big as Drake is and pulled in as much money he does, I guaran-damn-tee every single one of those writers were underpaid for their worth and contribution to Drake’s bottom line and future overall lol.
@@dre27321many have already talked about not getting paid much by drake for their contribution
"Maybe Drake wrote the verse and had Vory perform it to see how it flows on the track"
Why wouldn't he, y'know, do that himself???
Do you know what the purpose of a reference track is?
@@ShawnCeeLIVE Aren't reference tracks usually done with different lyrics?
@@sojaabrams599The purpose of a reference isn’t limited to lyrics, vocal adjustments, flow, inflections are all used to repurpose a song, which is why I don’t understand so many people being hung up on lyrics where no one knows who wrote what.
@@ShawnCeeLIVEyou’re right Shawn. IGNORE THE SHEEP
@@ShawnCeeLIVE I'm merely pointing out that it makes little sense to hire someone to perform lyrics you wrote on a track when, if you wrote the lyrics, you could just make the reference track yourself and adjust it overtime? I'm not sure why that's specifically something you *need* someone else for, unless they also wrote the lyrics
This man does mental gymnastics with the ghostwriters/ref track situation.
Kanye has said he’s the BEST ARTIST not rapper. To be best RAPPER you cannot have writers because the KEY to being the BEST is having the LYRICS. The writing portion. If you are a singer or producer it’s different because the SINGING VOICE is important not the lyrical aspect FIRST. Imagine if you found out Whitney Houston had ghost singers and had fake vocals via computers or something. You’d be deceived.
C’mon son!!!!
Cmon son nothing, i been listening to Kanye since 05 and on graduation he called himself a TOP 5 EMCEE on Barry bonds with Wayne. Listen to it again, yall are delusional
@@romaretaylor9953 I mean even if we grant that he started off that way, nobody , not even his own fans, believe he's allowed in the top MC conversation.
Emcee (MC) stands for Master Creator. Does not require one to be a rapper@@romaretaylor9953
@@Vageta1999yea I know, but he still said it and believed it, same with Drake back in the day, they both went in different directions. I’m not saying ye ain’t talented but Kanye used to believe this shit he’s on video cyphering with mos def in 07
Even if Kanye said he was the best who tf cares 😂 don’t mean we have to validate what he thinks about himself. Kanye also said he god is that supposed to move me because he said it?💀
Drake is not a artist anymore he is a product
Its so weird that despite this, he still thinks he’s entitled to a spot in the big 3
Yeah he’s not in that conversation no more Tyler creator took his place idc
@@alien-hs1zn definitely. That man’s been putting in WORK.
@@Abdullah-vg1ucwe’re talking strictly when it comes to rap/ hip hop, because the rules and expectations are a little different
@@Abdullah-vg1uccrazy cause he definitely considers himself a rapper
“If I found out your whole persona and backstory was written by someone else I’d take issue with that”
… so… you do get why people have an issue with Drake? That’s his whole shtick 😭
“Drake” is a group project Aubrey occasionally brings others in on
I think your point's valid in some instances. For example, I don't view Q-Tip as a worse rapper because he was part of a group, and presumably collaborated both sonically and lyrically with those guys. I don't view Forever as a worse song because multiple verses were re-written in response to one another. Collaboration is a healthy part of music.
But when it comes to the art of rapping, its different. Reminds me of the anecdote where Em cleared the room out at the studio so he could literally watch Kendrick write his verse. He needed to see it was his mind, his words, his ideas. Otherwise he's just a performer, which isn't inherently bad, but not the same.
To use another genre as an example, can you imagine if Bob Dylan or Taylor Swift credited most of their lyrics to other writers? Like they're good performers and all, but that is NOT what they're known for. If someone brands themselves a songwriter, you gotta write the songs If you brand yourself an MC you gotta write the bars. If Drake is okay being seen as a performer, that's fine, but it makes the self-seriousness with which he views himself all the more cringe and weird.
It's funny how you suddently don't know a bunch of shit when it comes to expose the product Drake as solely as it is: a parroting product.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc so what? That's your price for whatever it takes to get there?
A product none the less.
Shawn made a video about why not writing your own lyrics is a problem 😂😅
Wild guy!
This guy is a 🤡
Looks like unc forgetting his own takes 💀💀
L Shawn take
Shawn you’re being dangerous to the genre just like Akademiks. You’re willing to compromise and adjust hip hop canons so Drake grift can continue. You’re part of the problem. Drake is a karaoke artist as shown by all these reference tracks around.
You need to stop finding excuses for Drake lazy and unauthentic scam operation in hip hop.
👏 👏 👏
Drake went on a podcast with Lebron on it and said he made this track SPECIFICALLY by himself. That is what makes it crazy, not that he uses writers. Everyone already knew that.
Ppl forget this part lol
Omg 😰 Drake has ghost writers???? Next we're gonna find out that grass is green 😢
😂
how is it a ghost writer when they're credited?
@@semahjI mean in this instance it’s just hilarious because beforehand AK was saying the credited writers wrote nothing and it was all Drake, then fast forward this comes out 😂
@@dre27321who takes Al opinions seriously 😂
@@dre27321*ak
I think you missed the point man, the best hip-hop to me is when it’s really personal, it’s like getting a glimpse to an artist mind. The idea of a bunch of writers cooking something up kills that for me.
That’s not what makes the best hip hop. That’s just what you consider your favorite type
@@ShawnCeeLIVE it’s different for everyone I guess.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE and what you consider the best isn’t the best for hip hop either, who are you to decide 😂
@@ShawnCeeLIVE”best hip hop” what the fuck does that even mean? Dance to it? Make money? Explain Shawn
@@dannydanumba Why're you asking me to explain something I never brought up? Ask the man who stated what was the best for him lmao
The idea that people shouldn't care about writers/reference tracks because rap artists have some other nebulously defined talent and process that non-artists couldn't possibly comprehend is such a moronic cop out. Your condescension has been noted though.
are you referring to the last 30 secs of the vid?
The entire vid...i stopped 4.mins in tho. 😂
Shawn be havin L takes and then I see some sanity in the comments
The goal post moving for Drake is insane. If a reference track came out for "No Role Modelz" "Lose Yourself" or "DNA" etc. They woukd be getting slaughtered online. He can be a great artist, but the best Rapper of all time is ridiculous.
You can't say your the best rapper if you don't write your shit. But you can say your the best artist/performer. It's a rap culture thing, it's a rule for mcs if you take urself seriously as a rapper. Simple as that.
Drake has little credibility and that’s what Shawn is missing. Kendrick does all the things Shawn said are difficult for most artists to do on their own yet we’re shooting Drake a ton of bail when HE wants us to think he’s the better artist.
This isn’t about Kendrick and isn’t about shooting Drake bail if you finished the video you’d know that. It’s about the benefit of collaborations and credibility being a conversation on a credited track is hilarious to me
@@ShawnCeeLIVEare you slow?
Having writers contribute to a body of work isn’t a problem until arguably one of your best albums in this case drakes take care has atleast 4 or more tracks written by The Weeknd
For Take Care it wasn’t that Abel wrote for Drake it was more like he gave him songs to finish, add verses and put on his own album + the Weeknd got listed as on those tracks too, it’s definitely not the same as the other stuff in discussion rn
@Abdullah-vg1uc yeah but I don’t think ppl are discussing the enjoyment. when Take Care came out ppl thought that Drake was actually putting his pen to these tracks and is the audience felt connected to the lyrics and Drake the rapper. This is why ppl say they felt that they grew with Drake. So it’s moreso about how the uniqueness of the songs are lost
@@prod.youngsensaiAbel.said he took 4 songs...I didnt hear about 'finishing'
“Pretty good emcee.” Yeah that’s all you can be if you dont write your shit by yourself
Sorry but no, there’s a big difference between co-writers, ghost writers and whole reference tracks.
My biggest issue with drake isn't his reference tracks it's the fact during the beef it was written by kendrick on every song and for drake it was more credits instead of flexing his "muscles" and it being a one on one . He lost my previous perception of him
First 3 and a half minutes, I'm about to cut the video off 💀
😂😂😂 I stopped at 3:58
Drake is NOT open about having writers, he denies it all the time but puts it in credits, and since most people dont look at credits, it insinuated that drake wrote his shi
Shawn straight gaslighting. If Drake were an illustrative artist, its like he's saying, "I dont see how tracing another person's art piece without context makes anyone think Drake didn't draw that shit." As a longtime Drake hater myself trying to be on the unbiased tip, using other things to hate Drake on is an easy and weak deflection to this defining narrative that Drake's credibility is irrevocably damaged. Name another real rapper/mc with 20 provable instances of this that were essentially glorified copy and paste type shits then niggas might reconsider, but your angle of a lack of context falls to his consistent pattern. We didnt need to see Cassie get beat by Diddy 20 times to need context, it only took one
You cannot call yourself an artist if you do not write your own music.
It's like a label taking a homeless person from down the street/shelter, giving him a bath, clothes and a new cut, getting someone to write & produce for him/her, promote them and they just made a new star.
Imagine if tomorrow it came out that Eminem, Kendrick, Nas and whoever top lyricist of all time is not writing their own shit, it's wraps.
I don't know why people are surprised Drake got writers, Meek already exposed it and Push & Common/Budden (can't remember who) were already making references to that before Meek exposed it in their feud.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc If he didn't write his shit, then no.
A painter is an artist too, they draw their own stuff.
A producer makes their own beat/samples and adds their own touches.
A mechanic fixes the car by himself/with other mechanics.
You can not call yourself an artist if you do not write your own music. You're just a singer +dancer (if you add that to your character).
You're conflating working together to produce a song structurally and sonically, like from a production standpoint, and someone writing the lyrics for Drake.
I think Drake can write, but he doesn't have the integrity to write everything because he's obsessed with quantity and numbers. Which has been a theme in the Kendrick Drake dicotomy.
There's also a history with Drake stealing songs like with the weekend and quentin for example. So it's not a stretch to assume that's not the case here, it's the same with the creep shit, the reason those disses hit was due to his track record.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc Jumbo Shit Poppin
@@Abdullah-vg1uc Besides the point really. Okay he was given them, you're right. He still has no integrity as a writer.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc bro please at least read my original comment before speaking
@@Abdullah-vg1uc you and Shawn are the only ones riding for Drake in these comments and it’s hilarious
@@Abdullah-vg1ucpressuring ppl for music is not ethical. XXXtencion sure thought Drake stole from him....and I'm sure there are others.
If you think the comparison between Kanye and Drake is comparable then you don't get it.
obviously…
Shawn you’ve missed the point - the point is we know that Drake steals songs from artists and then also just sits on their careers so that the artist can’t thrive hence why it’s called the OVO sweatshop - he often doesn’t credit the writers - just this time he has - you’re trying to say that this is a ‘writing process’ it’s really not when it comes to Drake - he straight up just steals - also you mentioned Kendrick and Keem and if you listen to Kendrick reference track for Keem track they tried to release it’s just Kendrick humming jargon - and then later keems written his bars to fit in -that’s a writing process! Not Vory saying the bars word for word on what sounds like a finished track and then we hear drake performing the same exact thing even down to the damn adlibs?!???!! 🤦♀️
Kendrick has more than just one reference track for Keem, i have no clue what this is supposed to prove. Once again, you’re hearing a reference made by Vory with zero context as to what happened prior to making of said reference or how far into the writing/performance process Drake was already up to that point. Which is my biggest issue, y’all don’t know anything and are coming to these definite conclusions. It’s crazy to me.
@@ShawnCeeLIVE You are sharp enough to realise how much you're concern trolling legitimate criticism. The only question is why..?
@@ShawnCeeLIVEwriting paragraphs just to glaze and defend Drake what a 🤡🤡🤡
I dont agree but your opinion does make sense. The bar for 'good music' should be higher for someone who has made huge hits before and is known for not having a problem with collaborators. But I would also say the standard should be different for people like Drake, and anyone else, who make themselves out to be more talented than they are.
'Give these niggas the look, the verse, and even the hook. That's why every song sounds like Drake featuring Drake,' as an example of Drake's confidence.
You can't be this confident but still need 'help.'
You can have multiple standards, just not double standards, basically.
A singer talent is their vocal ability, a rapper’s talent is their ability to write and flow. You wouldn’t pay money to see another artist rap someone else’s songs, but it is completely normal to pay money to see a singer sing another artist song.
I don’t even understand how someone who writes the lyrics can’t form the flow to the words they wrote. Most songwriters either write the lyrics to the melody/music or have the melody already established for the lyrics they write. I would assume it is the the same for a rapper who writes their own rhymes.
If a rapper is not writing or creating their flow, they are a glorified karaoke performer. It is crazy how hip hop fans aren’t able to comprehend this.
@@Abdullah-vg1uche ain't paying you a dime bro.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc how is his billions helping me? Why would I care about his billions then? Y’all always throw out how much money someone makes like it’s supposed to benefit us
Kendrick was right.
Kendrick didn’t write PRIDE 😂
@@officialconch what else he didn't write
@@officialconchnot by himself at least. Shoutout Anna Wise
@@officialconchBaby Keem did it.Crazy how he can write SAMIDOT while playing Minecraft. Generational talent
@@The_24th_Sagehe has like 8 writers on every song excluding samples and prods lmfao midrick has fooled yall
Having worked in the publishing, me & people I’ve worked with have seen writing sessions where the person who laid a reference/topline didn’t necessarily write it all themselves either, (they only wrote a minority of it), but bc they laid it down, it gives the impression that they did the heavy lifting - that’s not always the case. If there are 5 writers on a song and they all agree to equals splits, who’s to know who did the lion share? It stays between them. 🤷🏾♂ Sometimes one writer (or the artist themselves) gets a bigger split so you assume they did the lions share - again not always the case bc I know cases where writers got bullied down on their splits, so that’s not always a reliable metric either.
Fine Shawn, Drake gets to keep his artistry card. But he loses his MC card and that's not even remotely up for debate. I'm so tired of y'all always trying to change the rules for people y'all like. (No saying Shawn is doing that. I know he doesn't really care for Drake like that)
Im my experience as someone who has rapped before, if you wrote it, you know how it flows. Drake writing it and then saying ‘figure out how this flows for me’ doesn’t make any sense. Vory likely wrote most of it. Im sure drake made contributions and we can’t be sure of the exact ratio as far as who wrote what, but i can assure you vory didn’t just perform it as a reference for what flows drake should use.
Yeah my writing process comes with the flow because otherwise it’s hard to see how the bars fit without rapping it out. I also take pride in developing the flow and melody of it even if it’s not singing. Drake is good at creating melody having written for many R&B artists so I wouldn’t even understand him writing a song and not just coming up with the melody himself since that seems to come easiest to him.
There's a difference between getting help and having the whole project being done for you. And then on top of it, some people haven't credited, some people claim he stole their whole shit, hell even Money to Blow has been shown to be ripped off of some unknown New York rapper and Drake claims it to be his own, without showing where it came from or who contributed what to it. That's where the issue lies. At the end of a movie, it goes out of its way to show you who held the microphones in the credits. I don't think it's unfair to ask these people to show who did what work.
Imagine Kobe tags in Michael Jordan to play for him, but still gets all the awards and accolades even though he didn’t play any of the games. That’s how I view drakes career.
*You got OVO workers climbing up in trees* like it’s Django and refusing to go back to the sweatshop.
people have been clowning dj khaled for years but he was really ahead of the curve in the creation process of modern hip-hop hits. invite a bunch of people to your house, have them make a song, jump on for a few seconds, then put it on your album and collect the lion's share of the royalties. a true visionary
A true culture vulture.
I don’t care whether Vory just contributed the flow to existing lyrics or the whole song, either way I can’t give Drake credit for being a complete artist because what makes a great rap performance is cadence, flow, lyrics, voice, etc all of that. I write poetry and rap and so much thought is put into arranging the cadence and flow of a track beyond just writing. That makes or breaks a song. It’s why someone like Nicki got so popular because she came up with a unique style and cadence. Drake might have the potential to write hits on his own but the fact he doesn’t will always put an asterisk on his title.
I think I agree with this take the most out of the ones I've seen in the comments.
There really is nothing authentic about this man, outside of his corniness.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc He's literally a pack of nothing but lies. He's the equivalent of the local Magician making bank off of the townspeople at the fair for years just for them to find out he's a complete fraud that tricked them. He's the Wizard of Oz.
you're defining midrick lol raps about "anti capitalism anti police" while having a 3Mn dollar crown and committing infidelity and domestic violence. midrick lamar is literally the reason why we need the police lmao
@@aka_15 Bait.
It’s craaaaazy HOW MANY reference tracks aubrey has lol
If we leave hip hop standards in the hands of Shawn Cee, mf’s will start lip syncing again
Meek said this in 2015. But since he lost people didn't care lol
wym niggas been clowning drake for having ghostwriter since then, even tho meek lost people still took this
It’s a difference between having contributers or collaborating and having people write your whole song and gift your whole flow
Hold up... "I dunno if Drake wrote the lyrics and had Vory record it so he would know how to flow" that statement makes ZERO sense. If he wrote it wouldn't he know how to say the thing HE wrote?! Y'all love shooting Drake a whole lot of bail when it comes to this rap shit.
Drake said “every word I utter will be mine” on fear. This is not the case. So yea fans of early Drake have a right to feel a way.
“Aint 20 v 1”…
I personally think that the reason why it matters to people is relative to the culture and to the way an artist approaches it.
Hip Hop culture has a big focus on authenticity, that's why ghost writing allegations are taken very seriously (or at least they used to), but this depends on how upfront the artist is about it. That's why Kanye doesn't get shit on for it, he's very honest about what stuff "is his" and what isn't.
We also need to think about what's the process each artist takes with it. If you're just getting someone else to punch up your stuff to make it more cohesive, or giving you ideas for flow, or giving you some rhymes that can connect the things you want to talk about is one thing; but having someone else write your story, or the majority of the story you present is the thing most people have problems with.
What sis drake ever do to earn this much benefit of the doubt
He never gave us nothing to believe in...
ShawnCee you starting to look COMPROMISED!!! 😂😂😂
Drake writing then having Vory do a reference and Drake then recording it himself doesn’t even make sense
Because why tf would he need somebody else to record it if he did all of step 1 his self, Thats like writing a 5 paragraph essay for school then giving it to your homeboy to hand-in
@@Abdullah-vg1uc because all reference tracks that I’ve ever seen leaked was from the original writer or a person who just gave someone else the song. If you check Kanye’s references, Keems references, Travis’s references or future’s. None of these are assumed to be from the artist themselves. People write for them and show them the song.
It could be an iterative process but the bulk of the writing is almost never done by the artist themselves.
What likely happened is that drake had an idea and passed it off to vory to flesh it out. He liked it so much he probably took most of it as-is
@@Abdullah-vg1uc cause that would mean Drake would write a good portion or even all of a song and have absolutely no idea how it should be performed.
In the case of needing a reference track it makes more sense that he was handed lyrics and needed an idea of how it’s supposed to go.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc if reference track are supposed to optimize the work, isn’t that more work ?
Drake is a cover band.
You got it brother 😂😂
I think at some point, Drake pulled a Frank Ocean, he just doesn't care. Only difference, Drake is still working for Lucian, Frank got out.
The problem with this is as a rapper your lyrics and flow is your talent. If you can’t do both of those at a higher level than your peers and you need people to give you your flows and lyrics and the whole world can hear it, it’s fair to question your entire discography. I can’t think of a rapper who’s had a lot of his good songs written or referenced by other people. At this point you have to call Drake a rap performer. When you combine the reference tracks with the fact that Drake gets destroyed by anyone with a decent pen (Push & Dot) in battles I say it’s fair to call the entire rap career in question. Fam Daylyte claimed he wrote back to back and that’s best diss track of his career.
This is the take I most agree with in the comments.
The issue is not being transparent and downplaying collaborative efforts but taking all the credit
Here’s the thing I disagree I think ppl who love hip hop don’t care if you got a writer and can’t make a song. If you do that though you have to be ok knowing there’s an asterisk on your name as one of the best and that’s ok you still made your millions you still got your fame your just not the best and the fact that ppl can’t take that’s point about artist they like is weird. No ones taking away his hits no one’s taking away his legacy no one’s taking away his talent thats just one area he can’t have.
The reason we hold emcees in such high regard is bcs their bars are their superpower. Their ability to think of clever ways to say things that wow us is what makes them special. If you take that away, they’re just performers. Producers who rap tend to get a pass bcs we feel that they’re producers first. In the pop and RnB world, the vocal and performance ability is more important. The difference with hip-hop is that 99% of the time the artist is telling their own story, and having someone else write something that you claim as your own takes away from the essence of hip-hop. That being said, all rappers collaborate. They work with producers, vocalists and instrumentalists. You can get help on intros, bridges, hooks etc but the verses are expected to come from the emcee. Otherwise, soon there will be no difference between hip-hop and pop.
I just go by what Busta Rhymes said, if someone else pen has touched your pad you cant be a goat MC. Drake is a pop star so he can have all the writers he wants
Nah you can't have contributions on most of your music then call "yourself" the greatest. You can say my team and I accomplished a lot but to say we should just glance over the fact that the actor has a team of people writing for him then multiple reference tracks come out but he can still say he's the greatest is ludicrous.
Rap has rules and tradition no excuses Shawn.
@@Abdullah-vg1uc I'm pretty sure the ones who pride themselves on being a true lyricist/Mc do ,they write and perform their own lyrics songs with their own unique style, flow and personality.
I can't stand my generation aka Gen z because we want to be love and admired like icons and legends without having real talent and earning that respect first, We make excuse for everything and everyone who we like regardless of how fraudulent that person maybe.
Second we prioritize beats flow over substance and quality because we're to lazy to think or we don't have the attention span or iq required to understand lyrically songs it's pathetic the Kendrick Lamar Drake beef showed you how ignorant and uninformed modern day rap fans are .
Kendrick Lamar had to forced Gen z to go to genius to look at rap lyrics 😂
@@Abdullah-vg1uc No Drake needs to write for himself to get respect as a lyricist no excuses.
Don't mention Kendrick Lamar with a fraud like Drake Kendrick Lamar ghost writers for other rappers but he doesn't make a big deal out of it because we know his pen is lethal.
For me its always been about authenticity, if you make a song about your family life and you have some basement ghostwriter who hasn't touched grass in 5 years writing that, it doesn't really make me feel like what they're saying is true or that they're relatable, it breaks this connection I have to the artist.
If an artist is collaborating with someone and they're honest about it then I know who to give credit to when I say I like the song, thats why corporate music doesn't appeal to me, its less personal, its like a happy meal at mcdonalds when I could have my girlfriend cook me something she knows I like instead.
I also think its important to put into context what the artist portray themselves as, like Dr Dre is a producer who like to hop on the beats he make and I think this adds to his personality, really makes him feel like its his song and that he's respected as an artist even though I'm sure most of the time they help him write his bars on it, its like a mutually beneficial relationship and since they're both on the beat it doesn't feel like they're hiding something.
Yes, I agree wirh you, in terms of the amount of work one actually does on a track/album. But the mob ties, running through the 6, were legit reference track created by someone else, drake just performed it, but when you look at the credits, Drake is listed as the top contributor (first name listed on the credits). That's the part that signifies an illusionist. Some commercial artist, Beyonce, Drake, pull the same thing, they add a "what", "the" and they automatically credit themselves as top contributors. Both of whom have been known to "steal", take credit for writing songs that they didn't write, ie, Irreplaceable.
Where Kaney and Drake differ, is that Kanye is a musical collaborator, and always has been. Lyrically that's all him. The not so lyrical side of Kanye, all of the lights, for instance, is really not very thought out, it's just performative for the production, which is Kanye's main strength. Drake has been known to steal from a lot of people, insisting on taking tracks, ie the weeknd, through force. Kanye is known to credit everyone, even a random person in the studio (a delivery man for instance, it was in the Jeenus doc).
It will be interesting to see what else comes out, cause this is bad.
I just think its weird to flex being the "GOAT" with so many other people writing your raps
the problem with this specific reference track is that it was a response to how the push t beef ended. J Prince ( the mob) had drake wave the white flag because he felt it was going to get ugly with the diss drake initially had he drops this on scorpion instead the lyrics are a clear indicator. Idc how you want to flip it shouldn't be no ghost writers or reference tracks when it comes to beefs and it then raises the question on if he had help with his disses towards kendrick making that 1v20 line even harder
Why does OVO Hush (Anthony Palman) have so many writing credits on drake albums? Specifically songs like The Ride & Tuscan Leather? 👀
If you take drake as seeious as he takes himself youre gonna hate him
Drake is a Pop star. Rapper write their own stuff. He a Pop star that raps.
Shawn slipping up and saying Cole immediately made me think “what will these drake ghostwriting allegations do to Lebron’s legacy?”
even if drake gave him the lyrics why is drake having help with how he flows I would at least expect him to have that
Nah, if you got ghostwriters in Rap, you get no respect.
Stop trying to rewrite the rules 😡
People like to zoom in a lot for Drake regardless of the patterns that are clear. I agree that there's no context for what happened in this specific reference track. But I think in the larger context, it's not hard to place. The pattern is about him presenting himself to be something that he's not. Personally, i dont think he's as creative as his place in the culture and this art form would make people assume. And not enough to deserve that spot. Yes collaboration is necessary, we create nothing by ourselves. But the level of participation matters. And from these reference tracks, that's the pattern that emerges. That he just shows up and makes a few tweaks, like an editor instead of a writer. I think time will reveal this more, so I'm okay with people refusing to admit it yet.
Ur honesty and unbiased opinion makes you the GOAT of reaction
You know shawn is wrong when he is under every one comment trying to prove a point
In your opinion is there any there level of contribution that is too far? Is there any point where the consistent need for contributions reflects poorly on your own rapping ability?
Problem is people hear a reference track and treat it like the released version is just Drake or whoever essentially doing a cover of someone else’s song and calling it their own. That’s obviously not always the case, but that seems to be the perspective when they hear a drake song that appears to be a cover or “interpretation” of something from Future or PND or Vory or Quentin Miller. I don’t think it’s an issue bc at the end of the day with these artists, the voice is the instrument upon which they’re creating these sonic landscapes. Quentin don’t go as hard as Drake even if he rapped the bars first. Same goes for Kanye and a track he might’ve gotten from someone like CyHi or Consequence.
Finally a sensible take about this.
Imo it comes down to transparency. If you credit yout collaborators, you're ok in my book.
I think it's comparable to talkshow hosts or movie/show directors. There are names attached but everyone understands that there are a ton of people involved like writers, producers, musicians, etc etc. There usually is still ONE main name attached to the project but everyone understands that that it's a giant collaboration. I'm okay with music being created similarly. Once again, it comes down to transparency.
I do think that it could often be more transparent but that is an industry issue if anything, not a Drake issue.
The thing I didn’t respect is they he didn’t credit Quentin until he was exposed. Also I used to be under the impression that a credit meant a small contribution, like you can say hey it would sound better if you said this word instead of that etc, but something about being sent 90% of the track doesn’t sit right with me. I get that’s the game now but I respect artists who can write consistently for themselves
@@monicarenee7949Quentin was always credited. he didn't receive publishing therefore couldn't make more money out of it.
That's a great point tbh, Dre and Kanye are well known to not write their own shit, it definitely does affect their place in the GOAT rapper convo, they come up in GOAT producer ones, but in any case, yeah, how do you have collaborators and access to the best people and still make shit.
Shawn Cee and L takes, name a more iconic duo
😂
Stop it Shawn. You cannot be the best if you have writers. Not saying he can't be a rapper or make music but to be the best MC is an artistic thing. You can still be a fan and still say he is out of the GOAT conversation.
Ppl Andre 3000 not eligible to be the best because he doesn't have a solo album and Cole can't be the best after apologizing but Drake can still be the best with writers?
I agree with collaboration being key to good art. However, there is a thin line between collaboration and passing someone else's work off as your own. Going off just these reference tracks, it's impossible to say what side of the line Drake falls on. Like you said, we don't know if he had written out the lyrics beforehand and only worked with Vory on the flow. Based on Drake's reputation, I'm inclined to believe he falls on the side of taking credit for others work. That may not always have been the case, but at this point in his career I believe it to be true.
I feel like the context also really matters on this one. People have been giving Drake the excuse online that having ghostwriters is ok when it's not on a rapping track. AK on the JBP said that Mob Ties was one of the tracks that would make him feel "devastated" if he found out that Drake had a ghostwriter on it. A lot of people looked at this song as one of Drake's major comeback tracks post-Pusha T (I personally remember hearing it and being like 'oh shit is he subbing Kanye right after all of this? Idk if that's a good idea bro') and imo was a big part of his rebrand w/ the whole mobster Drake angle that he still rocks with. Hearing that a new evolution of Drake, even if it's one I thought was kind of goofy, was championed by someone else's whole vibe is very off-putting to me.
I've had a love-hate relationship with Drake's music for a while but to me this one feels really disappointing. I get that the reference track could just be Drake giving Vory bars and then letting him perform, but it sounds distinctly unlike anything else Drake did up to that point, and we have other reference tracks like Yachty on Jumbotron Shit Poppin (plus Yachty coming out and saying that that sus-ass Megan bar was written by him and wasn't intentionally shading her) that show there's a pattern of behavior here. How many times does this have to happen before Drake loses the benefit of the doubt yknow?
I appreciate your objective take!! I know everyone hates Drake right now but what’s “exposed” isn’t new. We can only take things face value and don’t know what goes on during the creative process. There are interviews from big respected rappers admitting to having writers and writing for other artists. At least Drake provides credit to writers that have collaborated with him.
We don’t know these artists and what goes on behind the scenes.
hot take, giving a flow is crazier than giving lyrics. forget telling me WHAT to say, youre telling me HOW to talk? Ratchet Happy Birthday is Drake’s worst song and Party made that. On top of that, Party has a reference track call 627 or something like that, where he clearly wrote the Drake verse on Company ft Travis. He was singing on a whole different beat with a different tone. Sorry dawg, your boy is getting shown how to talk, walk and dress by other artists.