What the Bible Doesn't Say: Revelation
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- Many fundamentalist Christians anticipate that the world will end within their lifetime and they look for particular signs listed in the Book of Revelation. As it turns out, this has been true for almost a thousand years. As each generation’s belief has been proven false, the next generation simply updates the calculus and reads the signs in their own times. John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will outline the actual context of the Book of Revelation, how it was meant to be understood by the generation for whom it was written, and how apocalypticists have come to so thoroughly misunderstand the text.
Join the livestream to participate in the discussion and to ask questions to our lecturer during the Q&A.
Other topics covered in this lecture include:
Whore of Babylon
Four Horsemen
Apocalyptic literature
Eschatology
Hermeneutics
Apocalypse
End of Times
John of Patmos
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This is top-notch, best-in-class Biblical historical content with a presenter as nice as the information is excellent. Thanks, John, for your efforts to educate. That's a snazzy shirt, too!
John is amazing.
"God, let your knowledge be revealed to me. Grant me clarity and understanding so I can comprehend your ways and walk in life."
John hamer and this channel genuinely has become one of my primary sources for starting conversations, your ability to speak politely and tactfully impresses me to no end. thank you john and center place
It's so ironic how the "one who is taken" is NOT the one who gets raptured, but instead the one who dies. It's like a metaphor for fundamentalism itself.
Correct.
The ones taken, are taken by the birds, that will gorge themselves on the carcasses
The supper of the lamb
The problem with the internet is that people just copy and paste each other's arguments which means that they quickly spread all over the place before anyone has a chance to check whether or not they are valid. If you are going to argue something you need to be careful and check things out yourself rather than just copy and paste.
The argument you have borrowed here is from Matthew 24:39-40 and was originally used together with the KJV version which looks like this:
"and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and *TOOK* them all away." (Matthew 24:39)
So the idea was that since "took" is used in verse 39 then it makes sense that "taken" (being the same word in a different form) refers to the same thing.
However, these words are not the same in the original greek language (which is obviously what we would expect if Jesus' point was that those being "taken" were the same ones that the flood "took" away).
The word "took" (as in "the flood took them away") is airō (G142 ) which is most often used when something is picked up and carried away. The word translated "taken" on the other hand (as in "one will be taken, the other left") "paralambanō" (G3880), suggests accompaniment: "to take to, to take *with one's self,* to *join to one's self".* It is the same word used in the following verses, among others:
"Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and *took (G3880) unto him his wife"* (Matthew 1:24)
And
When he arose, he *took (G3880) the young child and his mother by night,* and departed into Egypt" (Matthew 2:14).
But that's not the only problem. We cannot be certain that what Jesus said in verse 40 was immediately followed by what he said in 39. Why? Because in Luke 17:26-30 we see a whole string of verses separating these two verses.
Finally it doesn't even make sense that Jesus, speaking of a _global_ flood, would point out things like "one man would be in the field and the other left" or "one woman grinding in the mill would be taken and the other left" or "two would be in a bed but only one taken". I have never heard of a flood that selects people like that.
Sometimes you need to do a quick test to make sure that the argument you use even makes sense.
Compare this with Rev 14:14-20, righteous and evil are taken to different ends.
Compare this with Rev 14:14-20, righteous and evil are taken to different ends.
@@fcastellanos57 Revelation 14:14-20 is not the same parable. The grapes are not growing among the wheat, the two groups are harvested in the opposite order, there is nothing here that resembles the "bundling", and the "barn" is conspicuously missing.
Since this takes place during the tribulation I would say that the "wheat" here resembles the tribulation saints - those that have missed the rapture but still have a chance to receive salvation at a much higher price.
John, you are a true gift of clarity and understanding. Your scholarship is solid and impressive. Your style is much appreciated. Thank you for all that you offer. 💫
You should upload these lectures as podcasts. I'd love to listen on my way to work
John walks on water and is pretty darned good overall.
I know it's wrong, but being from a Catholic background I secretly enjoy hearing John tear into the protestant reformation, in the sense that it inevitably led to present day evangelicals worshipping an already iffy translation and taking every word literally after mixing and matching paragraphs from books written centuries apart to construct something that aligns with their theories and politics. (Not that Catholicism is any better obviously and especially not in Martin Luther's time; most of his grievances were perfectly accurate. 🤗🙏)
Had no idea that the rapture wasn’t original to Revelation.
Rapture? I hardly know her!
Timothy LaHaye is the biblical (fake) prophet of our time. Why is his revelations less valuable than first century content creators?
Rapture, false doctrine
This message is sent in love. The rapture is a false doctrine and is mainly derived out of 1st Thessalonians. When was this book written, to whom, and what does it say? Written circa 52 A.D. to a church that was present in 52 A.D., this letter was not written to you. In every chapter Paul/Silvanus & Timotheus (authors) tell the church members that Christ is coming, 6 times. This is the revelation/the resurrection/the gathering/ the restitution/ the last day/ ch 1:10, 2:19,3:13,4:15-16,5:23. If you received a letter telling "you" that the Lord was coming in your lifetime, 6 times, what would you believe? Exactly. When did Christ say he would return and fulfill the law? Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Christ returned in the first century and destroyed the temple in judgement fulfilling the law, ending the old covenant, destroying the last enemy death (2 Cor 3 & Gal 4 elaborate), gathering all peoples unto himself, per his own testimony.
Daniel tells us Rome would be in power when the everlasting kingdom would be established: Daniel 2:44, 7:14, 9:24.
Christ quoted from Daniel and told "them" (his audience to whom he was speaking) when "you" see the abomination, not us: Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
The entirety of the New Testament authors all tell their immediate audience that Christ was coming, in their lifetime. Paul, John, James, Peter all say the same thing. Peter directly tells his audience they will witness the revelation, 1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Peter said he was living in the last days, quoting the prophet Joel, Acts 2.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 The church members are obviously concerned about what has happened to their members who have already died, physically, verse 13. Why? Paul had already told them 4 times in this letter that Jesus Christ was coming. They were looking for the revelation. In verse 14 Paul is telling them that God will also gather them, the ones who have already died physically. If you die a believer, where do you go to reside? Heaven This is your final abode. Where does Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live? Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Almost all of the prophets talked about the "last/latter" days, this is where the New Testament writers get their doctrine. The last days are defined as the "last days" of their covenant. The saints in heaven are not leaving their abode; they are simply included in the "gathering", which is the resurrection/restitution Paul preached. In verse 15 Paul tells this church, that they were going to "be alive", breathing, when the Lord returned. And obviously they would not precede, go before, the saints who physically died and were already in heaven. The gathering/resurrection/restitution was for all things in heaven and earth. Verse 16 the dead in Christ (a believer who physically died and is now residing in heaven) will be resurrected/gathered first. Why? Christ was sent from heaven by his Father. If you live in heaven, then you obviously will participate in order first. Verse 17 then we which are alive and remain, we (these are breathing Thessalonian church members) Paul told "them" that they would see the coming of the Christ, 6 times in this letter. To "meet" the Lord, this word meet is apantesis. What does this word infer to a first century person?
This word is used for a formal meeting of a dignitary. Everyone in antiquity knew this word meant that a dignitary was coming to your city. They knew this meant that you would send out a welcoming party and usher that dignitary into your city, where they would remain. It never refers to someone coming to your city to get you and take you to a different location.
The second coming/resurrection that Paul preached has been accomplished by Christ. Paul tells us in Acts that his doctrine on the resurrection/revelation comes from the law and prophets. The old covenant ended at the destruction of the temple; we are living under the new covenant, which lasts forever. This message is sent in love, your friend
Neither is the Antichrist or the New World Order or the third Jerusalem temple or any other sensational stuff fundamentalists churches teach.
Neither is the Antichrist or the New World Order or the Seven Year Tribulation.
Look forward to every Tuesday night!
The roman term which appears to be in "fiddle," vitulari, is to celebrate, be joyful. Making it a reference to the modern viol is a case of common misconstrual of cognates having the same meaning as their source. Especially since fiddle as a verb does not of need include playing a viol, even now. (It's got at least three verbs: to play a certain range of traditional folk styles on viols, to inappropriately mess with settings on a device, and to fidget with something.)
Besides, bowed strings go back to 8th C BCE Mesopotamia, and are shown in a few surviving Roman illos. So, it's quite likely that Nero did "vitulari" (celebrate)... and may have done so with a rebab...
Here I thought it was a euphemism for masturbation
@@DianaStevens42 Some would claim that as a form of celebration of the human body...
Excellent analysis. Thank you John. Blessings to all.
This fellow has really grown on me.
Thank you so much for your lectures! As a former seminarian turned social scientist, I am in heaven.
I’ve heard of vegetarians and pescatarians, but I’ve never heard of a seminarian.
Brilliant work. Thanks!
John Hamer is absolutely fantastic. He is spot on always. But my big question is why he doesn’t identify as an atheist or agnostic because he knows and points out all the rubbish in the Bible.
It would be quicker to find correct things in the Bible, but would hardly make one lecture.
Same here.
Ive listened to a number of his lectures and he agrees with much of what Bart Ehrman and many unbelieving Biblical Scholars teach.
The contradictions, the unverifiable evidence of canonical authors, the borrowing of near east religions and philosophies. He accepts that the Creation story, Flood and Exodus are myths from.earlier Canaanite and Babylonisn creation myths.
Or that the Gospels are not eyewitness accounts of the life Jesus but rather decades old Greek written interpretations of an oral tradition.
It baffles me why he would choose to believe in the supernatural.
Like and comment 😊 Among the best channels on yt.
When I started learning English, I knew about Christianity and its mythology; however, because I grew up in a Buddhist tradition, I imagined that they saw their texts the same way we see our own mythologies and hagiographies - symbolic representations of actuality not to be taken literally. I cant tell you how shocked I was when I started to realize that they actually BELIEVED all this weird nonsense literally. It shocked me then, and it shocks me to this day.
They rob themselves of the real mysteries. It's heartbreaking.
Absolutely crazy, right! I'm just so fortunate my Mom taught me that some people believe the stories are just myth.
@@jasonbishop5345 Yes. I have western friends who sometimes invite me to their churches here. I have been to Catholic, Episcopalian, evangelical, non denominational. It always feels either like a cult, or like a cult that has outlived its cult leader and become a bag of rituals. The evangelicals! Oh my! Hopping, clapping, making baby-talk ululations. Terrified me.
They're not all literalists
@@LeeGee I have yet to meet one who isn’t. Perhaps one day I shall.
Fundamentalism is always an innovation. It is never the original teaching.
I missed live. But got a like on just now
same here,i dont think i got the notification
This stuff as Nero I never knew was imbedded in the Bible as a "CODE"...that is SO AWESOME
I would be interested in your church if it wasnt for the mormon stuff.
But non the less, I appreciate all of this knowledge and analysis. Thanks so much
Right.. although in fairness 'mornon' typically refers to the LDS, that's not the Community of Christ. Which does of course share the same beginnings going back to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Crucially though, the CoC has realized that the Book of Mormon is not historical and has some major problems with it, for which they have even apologized. Now I'm not saying this trying to be apologetic, but I think going through the process of realizing that a core part of a church's scripture is flawed has prepared them very well for realizing that this too applies to more ancient scripture, and that not every word in the Bible is to be taken as historical fact or scientific fact. A healthy realization in my book.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
As a former JW, I can confirm the Witnesses did believe that only 144,000 would go to heaven and they still do. But they altered their understanding that the rest of us would be resurrected to life on a paradise Earth .
Thank you John. Very well done!
so wish I lived near your place where I could attend services.
You should make a pilgrimage
You Tube is a great place so everyone can gather despite our locations and circumstances. I'm very grateful.
If you make a pilgrimage be sure to bring holy water with you
The Revelation has been one of my favorite books of the Bible since I stopped looking for hidden messages. The messages are mostly in plain sight, as you lay out quite well!
This is really good. This style of writing and understanding sacred story translates over to the Book Of Mormon. I notice it also applies to the Jewish Zohar. I am formulating a new model where scripture becomes "a temple" of literature. A symbolic worship form one participates in by reading and studying it and as a community by agreeing on its focus. In this way "literalism" only occurs in the minds of those participating in the "play" being set forth by the sacred literature. "As if" it were true, and the lessons extracted and applied to our day. This appears to be a manner of the divine communication between God and man
Zohar and more. Pardes may interest you
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
So interesting! I’ve watched multiple times to try to take it all it
I love listening at night to your lectures you are brilliant. Can you-do a lecture on Dead Sea Scrolls?
You are brilliant.
Objective scholarship.
I recently came across the idea that the destructive elements in the book of Revelations resemble a volcanic eruption.
This was written a decade or two after that eruption.
Is there any independent historical or geological evidence of this eruption. In 1st century Mediterraneo or the Levant.
The Revelation is Biblical fan fiction that barely made the cut by the CATHOLICS who decided what books would be in the Bible. The whole Bible except for the redlines is highly sus. Thank you.
I'm still convinced the imagery is astrological. Spring time moved from the lamb constellation to the Pisces constellation. It's an astronomy lesson if you can figure it out. For instance, those 4 heads are the 4 fixed signs of the seasons. The 4 horsemen are also the 4 signs that start the seasons.🤷♂️
What constellation is a lamb, trough?
@@LeeGee That's Aries, the ram. Before 325 AD, it was the springtime constellation.
@@LeeGee ...idk why they chose a ram for that part of the initiation, or which Drugs it represents, tho. I just know it matches the stars too well to be an accident.
so, revelations that is supposedly written in the 90s is concerned about Nero who reigned in the 60s? 🤔 that doesn’t make sense to me.
Thank you so much for the fantastic lecture. I got a question about John Nelson Darby, whom you said invented the idea of the Rapture. I just came across this idea in Islamic tradition, which in a hadith says no believer will be left behind at the time of end of times. Is it possible that this idea was borrowed from non-caconical Christian traditions?
Reminds me of Thanos getting the last infinity stone and snapping half the universe out of existence…
Wouldn't he Great Whore of Babylon be a reference to Ishtar/Inana?
Great lecture and Q/A.
My humble request to all please download and read.
The End of The World Major and Minor Signs of The Hour by Dr.Muhammad Al Areefi.
Good stuff
Happy to give a superthanks. These lectures are amazing.
At one point you mention as an offhand comment that the "antichrist" is not mentioned in revelation.
That is an example of something I wish had been included in a list of "common things people think is in revelation, but isn't."
Maybe in a future video in this "not in the bible" series, you can get at this and other bits of dogma that people believe come from revelation.
Another one that comes to mind is the story of birds raining fire, which I remember my fundamentalist mother claiming was in revelation... but now I wonder if it was maybe some garbage Nostradamus came up with and either she or I conflated them.
Much as you describe the fundamentalist penchant for taking unrelated bible verses out of context and mashing them together, they also take extrabibilcal snippets and mash those together, too.
In the listing of the 12 tribes Dan is omitted. Why?
1 Kings 12:28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
Dan only had 1 surviving son
There was not enough of the tribe of dan remaining.
There are technically a clan
They are not forgotten. They will be redeemed and will rejoice as the Lord vengeance comes to their enemies
Gog and Magog
Greetings Mr. Hamer, Pauls' definition of resurrection has nothing, zero, to do with flesh/biological resuscitation. His understanding of the resurrection is based on what Moses, the law and the prophets said would happen, his testimony, Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets. 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come. Pauls' definition of the resurrection was the revelation/second coming of Christ, he also calls it the mystery, because the prophets prophesied about it, but they didn't get to witness the event, which occurred at the destruction of the temple, 2,000 years ago, fulfilling all prophecy.
Nor does Paul teach that the world ends. There is not one (1) scripture in the entire bible that teaches the world ends, not one. this message is sent in love, your friend
I come from an Exclusive Brethren family, interesting to hear them mentioned here. My grandparents and father were excommunicated by them before I was born but the trauma of their having grown up in that is in my epigenetics.
At minute 8:18 saying that what Paul said was absolutely false about the end of that age is a really big statement for someone who was not there at that time as most of so called history is more like his-story.
When the disciples ask Jesus about His return and the end of the world in Matthew 24, they were speaking of the end of that age and bring Romans chapter 3 verse 4 into play.
The meaning of the number of the beast was discussed and correctly shown to be the name of the emperor Nero, but no question was supposed nor was it covered in the talk on the part where the second beast in Revelation 13 : 16 -17 "It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name." Would have liked to have heard Pastor John elaborated on this, when I was a fundamentalist Christian this was interpreted and shown in the 'left behind' movies, as either a microchip or a barcode to be put on peoples right hand or forehead so that unless you worshipped the beast (or antichrist) you could starve to death during the tribulation. But what is its meaning then if John of Patmos is talking about the Roman Empire and the beast or beasts are its emperor's, what then is this mark that seems to control all commerce ?
Looking foward to your critick of lslam😢.
All men and women will experience the end of the word
But the fundamentalist would say that all writers are inspired by the same spirit. So the meaning is unified. So you can take any verse from any place and it carries the same meaning., right?
Sounds like a ”corrupt religion” get away free card
You do great work. But i dont think the true message will be taken as expected 😔
What will the Post God world look like?
That is a great question. ❤
@@louisik1 Thanks, I wonder if anyone has taken a look at what is just starting here in America...... We know what it looks like in the EU. Will it look the same here? My quess is yes, it will look the same as the EU.
@@jamesbarry1673 What is it like in the EU?
@@louisik1 God is dead. And theres no way hes coming back.
Okay, edgelord.
Thanks!
Thank you for supporting!!
Most of the vision-imagery of the Bible comes from the Hebrew Merkabah literary tradition, hence the uniformity of creatures elaborately described but difficult to depict visually. Even Paul hints at a Merkabah vision in 2 Corinthians 12. It seems to have been the go-to metaphoric framework of the time.
Bravo!
👍 _!!_
Great as always! Btw "Immaculate Conception" as a term is used for Mary's conception in her mother Anna's (who was not a virgin) womb; it is taken for granted that Jesus's conception was "without blemish" (which is what "immaculate" translates to) so it is not a defining characteristic: "by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary" is what makes it unique
You're exactly right - thanks for correcting a slip of the tongue
@@HamerToronto Thank you so much for all the great videos shared on your channel and your great & incredibly helpful maps. Lookin forward to all the lectures yet to come!
Mulțumim!
Thank you for supporting!
Predicting the end of the world has a bad track record. The chrono-centrism argument is pretty striking.
Never the less: every individual life ends, civilizations (rise and) fall, some more than once. Some cities get wiped out by or get abandoned after catastrophes.
There have been multiple great extinctions in the history of Earth. Just imagine if Dinosaurs could write, what would they have written about their downfall? 😂 - Imagine birds having an oral tradition (=songs) about the great outbreaks of the avian flu 😂😂.
I still very much like the concept of catastrophism: the most drastic changes find their way into myths and legends. I think these stories often echo real events, they are retro-dicting rather than predicting.
In my own view, “the first things” have already passed: people already saw a new Heaven and a new Earth (- see Earthcrust displacement theories) after the events of the flood: a significant portion of the population “was taken” = died; Atlantis is said to have sunk in a day. The Motif of the “remnant” makes sense from the point of view of “survivors guilt”: people seek reasons, why they lived, and others had to vanish on mass: of course people came up with a heavenly judgement day. - Great natural catastrophes almost per definition come “out of the blue”: it’s not much of a stretch to see a war of the gods (Ragnarök), especially when one considers celestial impactors: those literally come from the sphere of the “gods”, the heavens / planets and stars above. - When Gods reside on mountains (- where Heaven and Earth meet), volcanic eruptions must have been seen as caused by the Gods; when Hell / the place of death was imagined below, no wonder people thought of Earthquakes as the doors of Hell opening up.
Trying to be prepared for all eventualities comes from eventualities taking place eventually. Having plans for bad times includes having stories for bad times, and theories of how and why they occur. Of course people see patterns and put morals in stories: that’s quintessentially what people do. Consciousness is required for learning, you want to learn from dangers, thus you see patterns. Black Swan events may be unpredictable by definition, but they still are events of great importance in hindsight. (Only non-discernible information is indistinguishable from noise; nothing can be learned from noise, thus it doesn’t even track as something.)
Sorry for all the tautologies and circular arguments. I rest my case. 😂
😁😁 Great closing!
Yeah, 100% of us are living in our own end times irrespective of any catastrophic fade to black that eventually will befall humanity, be it bang or whimper.
Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (book not in chronological order )
Christ returns one time in the future. However, there are several different visions of His return shown from different perspectives in the Book of Revelation.
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.
He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.
The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.
He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?
He comes on a horse in chapter 19, right after the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Chapter 20?
Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1?
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked before that time? Are there wicked angels in the pit in Rev. 9:11? If the beast "ascends" from the pit in Rev. chapter 11, where was the beast before that time?
Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.
The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return....
Some of Paul's quotes come from the Book of Enoch
Interesting.
Preprogramming Christians to sacrifice to Molach ?
Marrying into same ancestral lineage. Like breeding pedigree. A body will be prepared. Genetics eventually repeat for the spirit to fill
What does that even mean?
Hi and thanks. I am Greek. As I interpret the greek correctly I can affirm there is no rapture to heaven. The ones who are taken?/abducted will be destroyed. It's the weedst that are taken to be burnt/destroyed. The word rapture is invented by sda and promoted by church to assume an elevated position of an angel believers presume the good seeds are taken to be in heaven but the scripture says they meet the lord in the air not heaven. Christians have assumed an ideology of wishful thinking due to personality disorders of narcissism as most believers have mental illness and personality disorder which makes one assume they are godly chosen or special. Read proverbs 29 9 10 psalm 37 10 11 and notice what happens to the wicked. Elohim is plural for gods. Beast is a wrong translation
The Word theirion means strong one.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
Trying to convince a Witness the errors of the 144,000 doctrine is like teaching a dog algebra. I know people personally that are JW that think they’re part of the 144,000. What’s funny is none of them are virgins.
Rapture is not in Revelations.
Paul spoke of an event,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
sandal dust
It doesn't say the world is going to end it says the age is going to end. We are going to enter into the Age of Aquarius.
You made an error about the 144,000 as JW believe it. Yes, its a literal number in their eyes. The nuance thats important is the concept of terrestrial paradise and heavenly paradise. Countless transcend to the new earth. 144,000 go on to heaven to rule in court.
John the revelator put him in a elevator 👽
This guy's giving a talk on what's not in revelations and at the same time adding in a bunch or stuff that's not in revelations. Good luck to his listeners. Try reading it yourself.
Might help us if you, an expert, would give us a few examples of what he has added to Revelation.
And as an expert, you should know the title is not plural. 😂
What the Bible Doesn't Say: Anything sensible at all.
At last a sensible comment.
I could never be Muslim because I don’t believe in Jesus.
I take it you like heat
The first beast is st paul...and the second is ...st Ignatius of Antioch....
They gave a doctrine 666...
Which is not of CHRIST 777
These christian revisionists really really love to attribute any harsh motiffs of abrahamic literature to some near modern jerk when its like haha no you can see how that intrepetation exists and i very much doubt they were the first to make it.
Luke 17:22-37
Entire parables are not "out of context" 🥴
Sir an actual fundamentalist use the fundamental source as basis for faith that being the New Testament. You may now yell true scotsman..
🟧🟧🟧🟧 Read Matthew 24:34 "Truly, I say to YOU, THIS generation will not pass away till all these things take place." Jesus is speaking to that Jewish generation. Not the year 2024. Jesus gave Matthew 24 on the mount of Olives. All of Matt 24 is referred to as the "Olivite discord". He was speaking to THEIR generation. He was speaking about Jerusalem and its establishment's end in 70AD. Even the Jewish religion completely change right after that. Readers seems to have no clue that the people he was speaking to had no Idea he was the messiah, was going to die, Resurrected and ascension. When Jesus said "he would come" That phrase in scripture is commonly used in Judgement. [36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the COMING OF THE SON OF MAN.] Jerusalem and the surrounding area was fill with murder like in the days of Noah just before 70AD destruction. That comes from a eye witness Josephus. Jesus speaks of "coming" in the beginning of Revelation to some of the churches in Judgement .
PRETERISTS take away from the words of the book of prophecy.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
@@qwerty-so6ml You are a dispensationalist. God is under your control in your mind. He has to do what you believe.
@@NormBaker.
Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Shalom.
@@qwerty-so6ml Your soul is not of God. You don't belong to the Lord.
The biblical prophet Elijah has returned, as prophesied, and testifies: Here's how ridiculous the idea of a "Rapture" is: Most Christians have no idea of what the TRUE "Gospel" ("GOOD NEWS") of Jesus Christ is! Because, the commonly-accepted Pauline BAD NEWS "gospel" of JUDGMENT and SACRIFICE for "SIN" is diametrically opposed to it! This is due to irrational ideas - the Original irrational idea being the very reason for our experience of this realm of limitation. For GOD is the Mind that is ALL. But we have partaken of the tree of irrational "knowledge" of Go(o)d and (d)evil. All mysteries have been unveiled in these "end times": the end of the old Cycle of Time that the New Cycle may be born. Seek and ye shall find.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
The lamb that opens the seals is NOT Christ
The male child born to the woman in Revelation 12, is NOT christ
The rider on the white horse, one that will rule the nations with a rod of iron, is NOT Christ
It is The Heir to the throne
The Heir appointed before the foundation of the world
When the Lord of Lords appears in ALL his Glory ,
EVERY eye will behold The Messiah
EVERY knee will bow.
and EVERY tongue will confuse, Jesus Christ as LORD
Can I ask why men would suffer humiliation, torture and death to preach a gospel that wasn’t true? To what end would they do this?
♦♦♦♦When Jesus was talking about the end, he was speaking their end in 70AD. The end of the Jewish Establishment/Religion and the centralized power in Jerusalem. That is why he said many there "hearing this would see that end". If you want the book of revelation to make sense, realize that in Revelation, that the"Harlot, The great millstone, the burning mountain, the great city, Babylon, mystery Babylon, Sodom, Egypt" were all speaking about Jerusalem, their establishment and religious Judaism and its destruction in 70AD. The book of Revelation has clues showing it was written before 70AD. The 95 date is highly disputed.
By who?
Apologist maybe
Not Biblical Scholars.
You're eisegesing scripture to fit your narrative.
@@oflunrazeuqram Disputed by biblical scholars. As far as me trying to make scripture fit my narrative...you just described the 30 thousand denominations out there. Each one trying to give their interpretations and narratives of scripture. I would say that is a fair assessment in regards to your reply.. So you comment to me really bears no weight in the whole scheme of things. I ask people to re-read Revelation. Keeping in mind what I said. Let them make their conclusions.
So many bad ways of interpreting scripture here. A lack of consideration of what Jesus said in the gospels.
And yes there is a different rapture other than the church of Paul mentioned in Revelation where the manchild is caught up
Wow...yet another "breakdown" (pun intended) of the four creatures that totally misses and obscures the rather obvious relationships. Matthew is the lion because his is the Jewish gospel a la Lion of the tribe of Judah; Mark is the ox, due to his focus on Jesus as the laboring servant; Luke is the man due to his focus on uniquely human (including female concerns); and John is the eagle due to his focus on theological/heavenly concerns.
Many of the early church fathers believed in the rapture I’ll post some to prove it isn’t a recent invention but first…
The rapture is a Pauline subject as it is for the gentiles, they are called the gentile bride
The churches in Revelation do not match the churches that Paul oversaw.
The Bride/the body of Christ ( we are not seeing here) is raptured first but is associated with the New Jerusalem that is in Heaven
This part of Revelation is a picture of theThrone Room and its activities.
John is being shown a different aspect of the church.
The 24 Elders are just that THE ELDERS of the Church 12 Patriarchs and 12 Apostles. They are already in Heaven before the churches of Revelation. The bride the gentile raptured bride church is somewhere else-in the New Jerusalem.
According to 2 Thess. 2:7-12, the church Christ is building today will have been caught out of this world BEFORE the first half of the seven year period of the tribulation.
1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-18
YOU ARE NOT RECOGNIZING THE STRUCTURE OF THE KINGDOM
The churches that Paul oversaw are not the same as the Revelation Churches.
The phrase "THE SON OF MAN" used in Revelation is not used in the epistles of Paul.
There is a PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION OF CHRIST coming in power and glory of Revelation but there is no physical description of the Christ in Paul’s writings.
The title "THE FIRST AND THE LAST" used in Revelation is nowhere in Paul’s writings
"SEVEN GOLDEN CANDLESTICKS" are words used to describe the seven churches of Asia in Revelation just like the seven golden candlesticks in the tabernacle under Moses.
The body of a man, not candlesticks, is used by Paul to symbolize today’s church.
Revelation 2:1 shows Christ walking AMONG the seven churches of Revelation. But Paul writes of Christ as dwelling IN His church, and believers dwelling in Him, walking as one new man in Christ
"where there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
(Eph. 2:14-16; 1 Thess. 1:1).
John is a symbol of a member of the church of Revelation and shown everything through The Holy Spirit. He even greets them as fellow servants.
So there are two separate and distinct bodies of believers
The body of Christ that began at Pentecost and will end with the Rapture which reveals the antichrist
The other, Seven future churches that seem to be extremely Israelish that will be left after the BRIDE has been caught up
"to meet the Lord in the air."
1 Thess. 4:13-18.
❌Church fathers and others
Shepherd of Hermas, AD 150
Irenaeus, AD 170
Hippolytus, AD 210
Victorinus, AD 240
Cyprian, AD 250
Ephraim the Syrian, AD 373
❗️ "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the Wrath of God. (Revelation 15:1) and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst." (2 Thessalonians 2:7)
Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 - Victorinus AD 240
❗️ "When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, then it is said, 'There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be.'"
Irenaeus' Against Heresies 5.29
❗️
"The sky being split apart like a scroll is the church being taken away." (Revelation 6:14)
Victorinus Commentary on Revelation 6:14 - AD 240
❗️ "
...because all saints and the elect of the LORD are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to the LORD..."
On the Last Times 2 - Ephraim the Syrian AD 373
There are many many more.
If the Bible doesn't say it, you don't need to know it.
Sorry you are just flat out wrong, church fathers that were students of the apostles or students of students wrote on the rapture “ being removed from the midst”
DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
I do not know your background but having listened to half of this video I can see that you are a very sceptic person and maybe does not believe in the Bible. Prophecy has to be understood correctly. The book of Daniel, and the events that are mentioned pointing to the end times, are for the end times. They are foreshadows of what will happen at the time of their fulfillment. The same goes for the book of Revelation or the words of Jesus in Matthew 24. What Paul said about the coming of the Lawless one agrees with Daniel 8 and Revelation 17 for instance. Paul may have thought that Jesus was coming in his lifetime, however what he said about the end times agrees with the other two books as I said. As far as the Final Judgment, we have to understand that the Almighty is not unjust. He has not predetermined those who will be destroyed from those who will not, that is not the case and we can understand this by the words of Jesus concerning why the judgement will happen, and this is not because of someone being predetermined but because some have decided to live wickedly. There will be no everlasting suffering in some kind of fiery place, those who will be condemned they will be destroyed which is the only thing the Almighty can do after they have rejected the salvation offered in Jesus.
Isa 28:9-11 shows the bible is to be read jumping around Mr. false teacher. You sound wise but you are a fool. 1 Cor 1:19-20
These early christians believed in zombiism.
i beleive the bible not all the lies peoples say
The Bible is written by people too.
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