They seriously sent you an email telling you they found your puzzle and decided to make it but put their “twist” on it by using different materials, then got defensive when you said the same thing in response but without the flattery.
@@anondabomb I don't think it would be a slam dunk case. The existence of the previous puzzle and lack of any patent wrecks it. And they didn't write a confession. Not legally. Their story is that they came up with an idea for something, saw someone else had done something almost the same and unpatented, pushed ahead with their own thing using one unpatented idea, and then kindly emailed them out of the goodness of their hearts late in the game to see if they wanted a shout out. Sure, probably utter bullshit, but you can't disprove it. In court it would just come back to "this kind of puzzle basically EXISTED ALREADY, they objectively look different, and the mechanical parts (magnet design) are not patented." I'd bet on him losing. There's no point in patents if you just don't need them.
i mean leagly its not the same thing its a difrent shape its using a difrent material so its not the same item if you look in to trademarks if the product is simular but not exact u cant be sued
@@grantmalone Having the same idea with a little variance is one thing, but having the same exact idea, only a brief time after, and with virtually 0 difference besides the color is all a bit too much not to be just a least bit suspicious. If you really think they genuinely thought this was their own design and didn't steal the idea (granted, it's not patented yet) from him and just made up a story to hide the fact, then you are naïve. It's like if someone stole your dog and told you about how they adopted it from a shelter just last week. Edit: Not to mention the fact that they said they got the idea from him, and then contradicted that in their kickstarter by saying they got the idea from a puzzle in the 1980s. This is the #1 surefire tell that someone is lying to you.
Exactly. It’s very unfortunate as someone who doesn’t want the hassle of legal battles, but dealing with someone like the creators of Torshn who clearly aren’t the honest “compromising” type, really feel bad for this guy, and at this point it’s purely principle, rather than going legal for the money, since clearly that isn’t what this guys about.
Yeah, it was like "I was amazed to find your design is almost the exact same as what we were making!" 5 minutes later "What are you talking about? Our designs are nothing alike!" At least the Kickstarter has been suspended.
They literally admitted to stealing it... "we thought it'd make a great orb puzzle re-make" "We came across your astrolabicon puzzle" "we decided to put our own spin on the shape" "we loved the magnetic system that you used" Like bruh c'mon. The proof is all in the first email.
@@AlbertoTuber I don't know if they have launched it yet, but when they do, yes they will sell it as a product. Also, a lot of money was given by backers to invest in their product.
Just keep an eye out for them trying to file any patents on the design. If they do, you should file a protest. If they do and you don't protest and it's approved, they'll probably come back around and try to sue you for infringing the patent.
@@ButterfatFarms you've not been drafting or revieweing patents for very long if you think someone publishing something fairly close 40 years ago would stop someone tweaking the design and patenting it now! I mean, riddle me this: superconductors were first patented decades ago, microcontrollers too, and locks were 300 years ago. Yet all have thousands of current patents.
that first email is so blatantly obvious, it’s not even funny “hi dude we really liked your design so we’ve copied it and started a kickstarter about it. do you want one? lots of love, liam xxx”
His spluttering protests that his design was not really similar might have held a little more water if not for that enthusiastic email he first sent you, basically admitting to copying your design.
You know, it's odd the places that I find you in the wild. You're not only one of my favorite Tubers, but you're likely the kind of person I could share a pint and a recipe with. All hail the Shrimp.
Yes, I’m not a legal expert and also not familiar with US law, but maybe this shift in claims could be a foundation for a case against them.. I know Deven doesn’t want a legal battle but it really hurts to see someone steeling such a good Design with such greedy intentions..
People should get paid for what they do, and it seems someone wants all the money from someones elses idea. 11.47 Rubbing the salt into the wound.....Ah that must hurt. Is Atomic Shrimp going to make a video about this?...You never know. Nice to know great minds think alike and your also a Make Anything fan. PS my sons been out collecting dandilions for some mead we're going to make over the weekend.
consult lawyer.. seriously. the $ (unfortunate truth that has to be considered) involved is warranting legal action in this case. You personally may not need it or care to, but it sets a bad precedent. Not just for other creators who design things. All your future stuff and other old designs may just be copied and profit from. "Your honor given this case with the inventor clearly know about we r "inspired" from his design but not to do press legal action, it is a form of implicit consent, or implied agreement this is different enough blah blah", suddenly they can copy everything but keep a % of profit (i doubt they will be allowed to just copy / use your stuff however they want, but legal stuff is messy and this gives them firepower to take advantage of in a late date. Worse yet, they filing a patent. Next thing you know YOU CAN'T use your own design, until you file a counter suit all of which takes a lot of time and $$$. If I used your design and did a kickstarter that got quarter of a million dollar already, you bet i'm already consulting my own lawyers, and filing patents and so on. (and contact admin of kickstarter)
I totally agree with this comment. You should take legal actions. If you can't afford it, I bet the community will be happy to help. Start a gofundme page
@@thesecretkey9845 Sure, in the same way that any law is illegitimate, since every single one is made up. The issue with copyright isn't it in itself, but how long it lasts. Also, this has nothing to do with copyright. Patents are completely separate from copyright, and don't last nearly as long.
Consult a lawyer, what this person here says is legit. If they manage to push their thing through, you will be forced to take down specific videos or maybe even need to pay fees for those. This can kick you WAY more later than now if you fight this case. DO NOT BE LAZY! Start a funding and share your story! Stand for others who are in a situation like you are!
@@aliciakozume5928 seriously, this is going to happen. These companies that steal IP always work the same way, they steal a design that they know isn't patented, get crowdfunding, use half of it to buy a lawyer, the other half to patent it, sue the original maker for infringing their patent and use the settlement money to actually make the product. It's a total abuse of the US IP system that allows companies to bully individuals into submission
@@aliciakozume5928 the patent will have the date on it and he has proof of when his was created as well as released to the public which lines up with when they "got their idea" so that wouldn't work
My lay perspective that the behavior, though ethically dubious, was legal. For reference, I'll note that Rubik isn't able to prevent companies from creating 3x3x3 twisty puzzles. Similarly, Lego was not able to prevent Mega Bloks from creating identical, Lego-compatible bricks (i.e., their "Micro" line), despite over a dozen lawsuits in various jurisdictions. Obviously this assumes that neither side is able to get a patent.
@@aliciakozume5928 Neither is patentable. As Devin points out in this video, there is prior art from over a decade ago. You could *try* to get a design patent, but I'm skeptical that it would be granted.
This seems to be a common thing with Kickstarter. Take an existing product from China and make a fancy video about it. Or rip off someone else's popular product.
I find it suspicious that they email you about how they like your design and want to take it and tweak it, and in the Kickstarter, they don’t mention you as a source of inspiration.
It would be funny if you started your own kickstarter for your product and when they try to sue you saying "you stole our design" you answer with "we're struggling to see similarities" lmao
I seriously agree with the analogy to the 2x2 vs 3x3 rubiks cube. If someone showed me those two puzzles I would assume they were from the same company immediately.
People who make things like to share them with people who share their interest. Looks like he pretty much crapped on a good will gesture by letting his audience talk him into seeing his work in someone else’s.
It's even shadier when you realise he used the SAME torshn puzzle for both screenshots but, not only 2 DIFFERENT ones for the astrolabicon, but ALSO neither of which were the ones he said had the most similarities.
Are you refering to the gray and white orbs he had in front of him? Because those were both made by him, the gray one was made to look like the Torshn version for demonstrations sake.
@@alexanderakerhjelm170 glad someone was paying attention during the video. you must've had good grades in school. i was gonna comment this if you hadn't. incase people missed that small detail.
@@alexanderakerhjelm170 you can see that he basically used the design that is shown at 10:07 (on the right, the Kickstarter design) so yes, he did make it himself, but the point of making it himself was to get better footage/pictures of the similarities of the product, which is pretty blatantly a copy of his design.
Everything be cool until the lecturer says, "Seems this group of boys trying to be smart, zero mark for their assignment." Me: Wait a minute, a group? Look at friend. Friend: Nope, not me.
Well I literally don’t know anything about law at all but since he made his design first, they can’t get a patent probably because it’s not original. Even if they get a patent because people view it as original and don’t think it looks like his design, they probably still can’t sue. This is because if they sue for the similarities of the design, then they are openly admitting the design looks similar and since his design went first, they would lose the lawsuit probably.
Their first email contact with you is pretty much their admission of using your intellectual property spelled out in black and white. They deserve to be taken down for such blatant disregard, particularly in launching a commercial enterprise on the back of someone elses property.
@@firedoctor1 they are practically the same product but one is the original and the other is a copy cat and the date the original was made was earlier than when the kick starter was made.
@@dadguy8415 yeah, doesnt matter because the world doesnt work like that, he didnt pay for a pattern license and thats it. Laws are made to protect the rich not everyone. thats how it works.
@@andreniki8864 All you need is proof of design. Patten license is good but not a sure fire way of winning. The simplest way of doing it is to make up a design on paper. Take and place it in a envelope and mail it to yourself. That mail date would be solid evidence of creation and just never open the letter. When someone challenges then simply bring that unopened letter infront of a judge or legal recording and open it.
Point is it doesn't matter if they make an exact copy and sell it because he doesn't own the rights to anything when it comes to his puzzle. How it works aesthetically or the mechanisms because he has no patent.
@@patman0250 Not true, unregistered design rights are recognized in a bunch of countries not least of which the EU grants a minimum level of 3 years protection though member states can offer more. The UK still offers the same 10 years they offered before Brexit at least currently not that this is one they seem in a hurry to change its individual rights they want to roll back not business rights.
@@seraphina985 No you couldn't be more wrong, not only does he have no rights to what he's made considering he absolutely claimed nothing. And he put the designs out there for people "get inspired" by his designs even flat out letting people use them as if they couldn't already. That gives him less rights off the bat. He will lose every single Court battle just on that alone. And on top of that there's absolutely no proof that they completely copied him. Considering that it was basically open source to begin with. And both are a basic copys of another design, the original. I'm telling you if you don't patent or obtain rights to your designs. Nobody grants you anything and you basically lose every time. This is a hard lesson for him to learn, always register your designs legally and own every aspect to your work. Fun fact just cuz you create something doesn't mean it's automatically protected from being stolen or copyd. Obtaining the rights to your work means everything. Even then there's loopholes that can screw you over.
All he had to do was say sorry about taking your design, but instead, he insisted even though the evidence is against him. Because of his ignorance, he instead got a one-way ticket to a big boycott against his product and possibly even strikes. Yo get the point at least.
i really really hope they get a strike , that was a low move of them to say "you didn't pay to say it was yours so we're free to sell it as our own" , it would hurt to see nothing done about it
@Max Roderick you could've been nice about it... You get the point I was trying to say that it's not right to take others things. I did not need you to write an essay.
Guys chill in the comment section. If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say it. As MLK Jr. Once said, "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." I know this might not fit in this exactly, but you get the point, hate only causes problems, so just chill out and don't hate on others.
UA-cam did something good for once. I thought their ad was cool and went to go check it out later. Then a day later I get this in my recommended. I'm sorry you have to go through this but I hope things get better for you. You seem very genuine and what they did was very unprofessional and seems ever so slightly illegal...
Same here, I love Rubik's cubes and I watch a yter that does rubiks puzzles, like can you solve a 4x4 like a 2x2 or some silly stuff like that, I got a torshne ad on one of his videos, and then later found this in my recommendations
more like: Torshn: oops forgot to do my homework.. oh Devin did his, let me copy it Torshn: hey Devin just wanted to let you know that i copied your homework Devin: what no
There's an old adage: "It's easier to seek forgiveness than permission." It seems pretty obvious they ripped you off in the hopes that once they had their ball rolling with enough momentum, you'd have no way to make it stop before it ran right over you.
yep, feels like they wanted a fully functioning design first so that there would be no way for him to patent it at all, and just accept their freebie and be happy.
Well there are plenty of comments on their Kickstarter now (and cancelled pledges). I'm sorry Devon. It's really awful. I hope their campaign get's kicked off Kickstarter.
Don't know if the canceled pledges and comments are a good thing ; seeing how they responded to Devon's legitimate remarks about their design, I'm a bit concerned they'd hold him accountable for their loss and bad advertisement and actually drag him into some legal bullshit.
Kickstarter dont care. I had proof a project creator took peoples money an ran. kickstarter pretty much said "you backed him so its your fault" Unfortunately like most companies money motivates them.
@ well i think their point was, that let's say people get bored of this puzzle, because be honest a lot of people will forget about it at some point. So what happens to that puzzle when it gets thrown out? Lasting materials are important, but so are the ramifications of creating something that CAN last through so much.
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@@adamxm1014 that makes no sense whatsoever. if you want your product sustainable, you make it with materials that can sustain the test of time and erosion
@ Or you want easily erodible and recyclable materials. By erodible I'm talking about biodegradable of course. Part of the issue with plastic is that it does not decompose in the ocean. I imagine you have heard of the great pacific garbage patch. Just a huge patch of trash, which is not going away on it's own any time soon. Sustainability in a product by definition includes environmental impacts. So creating an infinite pool of products which cannot erode into the environment (safely) isn't the best idea. Because look at the ocean.
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@@adamxm1014 ?? get your progressive newspeak out of here. no one said anything about environmentalism. something sustainable is tough and lasts. has nothing to do with "saving the earth" or whatever you hippies think you're doing
@ Literally google product sustainability. Sustainability is inherently tied to the environment, because every product, quite literally, is made of resources which originate from the environment. Sustainability goes beyond "will the product last". It is a question of, can I sustain this, isn't it? So when you are asking if you can sustain it, you have to consider not only the availability of resources (among many other things) but you also have to consider the ramifications of whatever you are trying to sustain. Burning fossil fuels is not sustainable, and why is that the case? Well I can give you a really 'progressive newspeak' answer but the most basic answer is that fossil fuels are a limited resource. We WILL run out of fossil fuels. Answering questions of sustainability isn't possible without looking at the entire picture of what goes into (and what comes out of) a product, and you simply can't do that without also considering what that means for the environment.
*Just pay $200 US for an attorney consultation, is that simple* You don't need to be into interchangeable conversations with nobody except to those who can provide proper legal advice. And get a second opinion if you need to with a second attorney too.
I get not wanting to engage in legal battles as a principle. But the unfortunate truth is that if you want to keep your rights, you sometimes have to fight for them. This appears to be one of those times so if you want your intellectual property / creation to stay yours, you're going to have to go through the effort it takes to bonk these thieves until they stop and/or sit down to have that conversation you wanted.
Liem: "struggling to see similarities" Me: More than half way blind never heard of this only saw 2 photots. "yeah... i see nooo similarities not like its just 1 layer less..."
As a designer and a Vietnamese myself, it’s embarrassing to see another VNese “designer” doing such an action like this, but I’m not going to sit around and do nothing about it. Thanks to your video, I can share it to the designer community in VN and let them know about this situation.
@@spoopyscaryskelebones3846 I'm not trying to be rude here but.. for you or me...yeah it's just a plastic toy But just think how much time this guy must have invested in planing and comming up with this design, 3D print it, fix any errors the design must have had etc
@@spoopyscaryskelebones3846 Oh yeah Gundam is also "plastic toy" too.Imagine how much money Bandai could lost and how many bad rumours could ruin their business if they keep some bastards make a less quality and cheaper vesion of their "toy". In case you don't know, a "plastic toy" from Bandai is expensive af.
Hi Devon, here via one of my Patrons. Really sorry to hear you are going through this. The first email is quite damning from them. It directly contradicts everything that follows. IP law is a murky area where the side with the most money comes out on top. Even if you had a patent, someone can abuse it and get away with it unless you want to spend a lot of time and money chasing it up. Keep your chin up and keep making those fantastic creations! Michael
I wonder if the puzzle will become prohibitively expensive as it’s made from machined aluminum and people looking for a cheaper version will go with Devons design.
@@drew899 Perhaps the whole thing is a scam and part of the reason they sent that email was to send one of the only actual copies they had made. It'd not uncommon for Kickstarters to create a prototype or model and never deliver.
company: "hey we know our product is similar to yours so we just wanted to reach out to make sure it was okay to make" make anything: "yeah that's ok but can you please change it up a bit because it's pretty similar to mine" company: "how about no"
Nikola Tesla, greatest inventor of 20th century once said:“Nije mi žao što su ukrali moje ideje, već što nisu imali svoje!” or in english "I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own"
"Hi silly billy! I saw your super design and decided to take it for myself. Hope that's no problem, teehee~" -"Hey, you stole my design?" "No I didn't. This was always my design."
This video came as a Random UA-cam recommendation however I am impressed with how you laid out the situation. Its pretty clear they saw that you don't patent your ideas and took advantage of it. A valuable lesson.
I think the real lesson is that some other more enterprising party has raised $100,000 to manufacture this entertaining toy. I would say "go take this interesting design to China and have cheap copies made and flood the dollar stores," except I might just do that myself. Oh yes, forgot to say: now that this is public domain, *anybody* can take advantage of it. Plus we don't have to write you a nice letter or offer you a free toy.
@@Grunchy005 It's not public domain unless it's public domain. You have a copyright on creative work the moment you have put it into a tangible form. You can sue for the infringement of your copyright, but not for damages. You file a copyright with the government in order to sue for damages sustained from copyright infringement.
Me after the first side by side: oh those are similar but not the same Me after seeing the movements of the puzzle: okay that's the same Seeing the insides: that is exactly the same Seeing the images the lawyer sent: these two products are the same
You can report an IP violation on the Kickstarter page. I went to do it on your behalf, but it says I must be the owner of the IP to file the claim. Please file the paperwork for Tippi Tree. That has legitimate big box store appeal, and it will be ripped off.
@@oliverbladek2137 I agree. As Torshn "Care for small creators" they surely would never steal something from Devin. I believe he should pursue legal action against Torshn however this would be time consuming and unpleasant, something that he shouldn't have to deal with
The problem is that they can contest a DMCA copyright claim and would likely be successful in doing so. Filing a DMCA claim without legal merit would actually place Devin in jeopardy.
I would donate to Devin's legal fund if he chose to go through with litigation. I learned the hard way that "nice guys finish last" and if they were bold enough to rip off Devin, they will certainly rip off more people if they aren't already doing so.
@@patriciabrighton335 It is very clearly not the same as "some car maker complaining that someone else makes cars." Torshn is very obviously heavily inspired by the Astrolobicon, and quite literally admit to this in their first email before trying to backpedal when they were told they couldn't profit off someone else's design. To better fit your anology, imagine I took a Mercedes, swapped out the tires, logo, and dashboard, then started selling it. Wrong for Mercedes to complain? I don't think so.
You might be able to avoid a legal battle but also report your intellectual property to Kickstarter. It could result in a battle or their campaign would just be removed and they would go on to rip off another idea. This is very common and the people behind them don't want to be known because then anyone would be able to connect the dots and see that they are nothing more than a bunch of thieves. I say, go to battle. If not for you, then for everyone else that they take advantage of and can't. (assuming you can.)
agreed whenever i see a comment supporting a legal battle, i'm gonna comment on it so hopefully he can see more of those. is absolutely outrageous of them to steal something and then try to act cute. "hey i absolutely loved your clothes... so i went to your home and took them to wear them myself, how cruel of you to say i stole them " admiration is not an excuse for plagiarism even if it was sincere and i don't think it was the case.
@@lurac5710 I disagree, if you read the first email the "company" sent, they basically admitted they copied his design then backtracked when he said he's not cool with it.
@@Bakashi The only thing they explicitly "copied" (and that's a stretch, at that) was the magnet placement and stuff. Honestly, it's substantially different. This is but a temper tantrum in my opinion
The first email you received pretty much was them admitting they stole your design. I would say you need to get a copyright lawyer on your case cause this is one you definitely can win
It very clearly isn't. Unless you mean to imply people who make Rubiks Cubes that aren't Hasbro are also in copyright infringement? A 2x2 rubik cube and a 3x3 rubik cube are completely different in design, despite having the same idea, they have different mechanical functions.
I love how they said they got alot of inspiration and gave him credit in the email to him but then on their site they gave no credit and refused to give him any credit
Dyson had the same problem with is vacuum cleaner. First none wanted it but once he decided to produce it himself, the big companies started copying it and launching endless legal suits with the hope that he would run out of money to go to the court. That's sadly how the pattern industry works and it's total bs. Check for "troll law firms" and you'll see the level bullshitery that these "protection of the inventor" are.
This is when you get an attorney to write back to their attorney. They are scared. And they're douchebags on their best day. The comments from their own backers are scathing.
Why would they need an attorney this can't do anything because about it, he doesn't own the rights to anything. He made a puzzle and that's it. He didn't patent nothing he didn't make sure that nobody can copy it. That's on him so as far as I'm concerned anybody can copy his design and try to sell it.
@@patman0250 he's not complaining about the fact they copied it for a profit. *he's mad because they said they were INSPIRED by his design AFTER they already made plans to sell the product, then went back on their word saying they instead were "building off of" a completely different puzzle from the 80s, then tried to go even FURTHER by using a law-firm to try and scare him into backing off from the subject a week later*. This isn't about them copying it, it goes far further than that... This is about them saying that they: "Were inspired" by his Sphericon to having no part of it when confronted on the topic. "didn't see similarities" when he pointed out (with proof) that it was too close to his design and was up to helping make it unique to avoid similarities. "100% want to be transparent" when they won't even say what company they are! (even the lawyer didn't say in his message!) "SUPPORT SMALL TIME DESIGNERS AND CREATORS" when they just flat out slammed this small time designer like he was the one in the wrong, and proceed to silence anyone that claims otherwise in their comments on the kick-starter.
@@ButterfatFarms no you can't say something is copied just due to the color choice, this is my 1st time visiting this channel but I have recently watched the ad by Torshn and I was really impressed by the puzzle..and It really isn't fair that they are just copying the IP without any credit,I say so because that orb and Devin's puzzle are completely different designs ,they both function differently which is not the case here(as both puzzles are essentially same,but one is smaller in size as he said he's design 3x3 where their is 2x2)..so Devin is clearly in the right here..and again Devin created a different puzzle from the orb ,whereasTorshn just made a smaller version of his...sorry for the long reply,,it's just frustrating to watch someone's effort being questioned...especially if the person allowed other people to use his design for personal use and even provided the prints..
@@ButterfatFarms yeah I just saw the Orb Puzzle after reading your comment,cause ofc when he said they are both different ,I thought in the way they both work...which is not the case,so I agree it was foolish of me to give him the benefit of doubt,since it is entirely possible that he came across the orb when developing his version of the puzzle,which he got the idea to develop from the reddit video which he explains, so he basically merged those both ideas together and came up with Astrolobicon...as per patent he said he didn't filed it cause it takes around 2000$ which is too much for a personal project but that also denies him to claim the property,but the Torshn one is straight knock off of his design since they both are essentially the same,one just has 2 less slots in each base...my point was that Torshn should have mentioned him somewhere on their kickstarter since they straight up copied his reiteration...and are denying that they didn't even had the Idea that Astolobicon exists...which is clearly false as evident by their first mail and then denial in later ones...and the comment on their kickstarter which clearly says "Devin didn't responded to our mail" on the same question raised by someone ,when he clearly did...is sickening..As I said its my first time visiting this channel..So my views aren't biased towards anyone but this guy provided the 3d prints for personal use..so clearly he isn't after the money...the point of the video is they are not acknowledging his design...All I am saying Torshn isn't giving him credit and as this is going to be a puzzle that's going to sell at least million copies..you get the point..
@@ButterfatFarms and if you are TLDR kind of person I just said yeah I agree,they are both knock offs of the Orb, but Astrolobicon is knock off of the Orb and Torshn's puzzle is knock off of the Astrolobicon...since their is a considerable difference in Orb and Devin's one ,but not enough in Devin's and Torshn's ...Torshn is obligated to give credits to Devin but they won't do so cause then it will clearly appear as knockoff and wouldn't be beneficial to them as he provided the prints...but since Orb is an old puzzle and their is considerable diff in Orb and Torshn's puzzle, people will believe that Torshn came up with this which they clearly didn't
“We stole your design. We are going to try to make money off of your design. What do you think? We can settle in court because you done first what thought. Keep up the good work!”
Yes. I agree. If the owner of the original still has an intellectual property rights/licenses in place....both new puzzles are in trouble. Not for sharing how they work, but for trying to profit from them.
Honestly the email kinda sounded like “We saw what you did with yours, and we don’t really want to make our own, so we are going to take yours. We love the idea and we are gonna raise money to do mass production. I’ll send you something that you practically already have because, well you made it, and then not give you any profit. Thanks!! 😊”
The fact that they made it THEN emailed you without even asking for permission or anything like that shows me that they knew what they were doing and did it on purpose
One thing they hammer into us in all of my product design classes is to do through research to make sure our designs aren't inadvertent copies of existing products. Even assuming they had never seen your puzzle, there's no excuse for this.
but they clearly had seen it "you made what we were thinking! so we took it and went with it! hope you like it!" _two emails later_ "its do different!" theyre just gaslighting
@@ButterfatFarms I think the difference being that he wasn't looking to sell the design and make money out of it. He uploaded the design process and everything for people to see and learn from. They, on the other hand, sought to monetise the design and sent conflicting responses about the inspirations for their product.
@@GrimGearheart Parker bros could have had a patent on the design which would have expired 20 years ago, and it doesnt violate copyright because they are obviously different in shape. Torshn took his exact design, sliced out the middle, changed the magnets and called it a day.
you can report them on Kickstart, go to the bottom of their Torshn page and file a report on intellectual property violation. Although not for certain it is an option
This is why you should always add some unnecessary thing to your invention. That way when someone steals the idea, they will add that unnecessary part, so you’ll know they stole the idea
At the bottom of Torshn's kickstarter page, you can report the project to kickstarter as violating one of their rules, that rule being that it is copying another product, and then it asks you to link the original and you can provide a link to this video. If enough of us report the project to kickstarter and link this video it is possible that kickstarter will take down the project and refund the investors and they will even probably send an explanation message to investors that will link back to the Astrolabicon as the source product. It literally takes three clicks and pasting the link from here, go do it y'all
Done, thanks for suggesting this. Very easy to do, and is definitely a more effective recourse than flaming the thieves on social media. Hope more people think of this.
@@leovang3425 yeah i know, i was laughing to it, not against you but with you, because i was just commenting my reaction when i saw your comment, basically agreeing to you
Devin, Why not start your own kickstarter, and give the people what they really want? Put your own kickstarter for a production run of an aluminum astrolabicon.
It'd be awesome if other 3d printing channels made something about this as well. This isn't the first time a community design has been used commercially, and surely won't be the last, it'd be great to see companies put on blast by the community when this happens; like when everyone got on Creality's back for not releasing the firmware for the Ender 3 initially (trying to hide that it was Marlin), until Naomi Wu talked to them.
Haha I didn't notice that at first. That's halarious. Pretty sure torshn is owned by the people who own Kickstarter. I mean not hard to believe a company trying to scam people in more than one way. Lol just a thought
@@n8dawg727 Yea that might be true. Considering the history of Kickstarter in general. And torshn is gaining popularity even through the controversy. It's disgusting. On their comments page, there's only 1 person that passionately defends torshn, I find it suspicious and they even go the lengths to blame Devin for it. I don't know much either, but yea this was an experience...
"To top it off, their ads are now running on my video's." That's it, they'e gone too far. *Let's make an astrolabicon gatling turret to make an end to their dishonesty.*
"yo whasup, stole ya design, do you mind?" "yes i do actually" "wait what, what are you talking about we came up with this ourselves, see heres proof" "....................."
You can report Torshn's project at the very bottom of their kickstarter page. I recommend everyone do that since it might cause Kickstarter to pull their project.
Oh no, it wouldn't. Kickstarter really is not interested in biting the hand that feeds them 5% of the pledged amount. Else I know a few campaigns that would have been terminated.
@@Sebazzz1991 Well you're probably right. Kickstarter isn't letting me even create an account to report the project, so I won't bother. I can still post Devin's video all over their social media pages though!
@@Sebazzz1991 You are right on this one. The only campaigns that Kickstarter cancelled we’re ones that we’re either so improbable that nearly everyone realized it as fraud (Laser-razor as an example), or the sozial media backlash was big enough that it would have been more hurtful for them to keep the campaign running. Furthermore, considering some of the campaigns over the years, it is also highly likely that the “makers“ of the Torshn puzzle do not come form California. There sadly are so many Chinese/Taiwanese or similar factories hiding their true identity to easily manipulate those people looking to support a small company from their own country.
@@Benlyd Yeah its unfortunate that these entities are able to get away with this. Hopefully if they aren't shut down, that they at least deliver on the project idea and don't end up taking the money and running, as is the case with many community funded projects. Thanks for your insight!
It’s clear you inspired their design. A simple royalty would have been a proper response from them. Not sure what they were trying to achieve with the first email but clearly validated they new about your work. That is people though. Share your designs and some will steal it. Just know that your design was so awesome it created a $245k Kickstarter. I’d follow suit and launch a Kickstarter of your design and offer prebuilt units in recyclable plastic. You clearly have proof in their words yours is not the same as theirs so no infringement. See what $ your design can generate.
True but the only problem is that make anything isnt getting any of the cut tho it would only be fair If he did get a small portion of it atleast (but this is my opinion)
What a great response from CHEP. You got this man on your side Devon and I go to him because I think he's great and inspirational as well as you are. I think you two should join forces and battle idiots like this company
They were hoping he would accept the free "gift". Had he done so, they would then claim he knew about and basically endorsed their design and thus relinquishing any claim he could have made. It is fairly common with ripoff companies to blatantly copying a design, offering a seaming benign gift, and then claiming no wrong doing. As a mechanical designer, it is a direct copy. The minor changes they did make would be the equivalent of Vanilla Ice claiming one note is not "Under Pressure".
An attempt to flatter him or something, but what did they think the response would be?? It is so weird. I suppose they were trying to get ahead of the criticism from potential customers and fans of Make Anything. Maybe they were already catching flak from people and thought they had to do something and hoped Devon would give them his blessing.
@@jeradw7420 yes I agree. But it's what he does now. For them to get lawyers involved just proves their intentions. They are just after making money from your design Devon. Tell them its £100000.
@@JamilKhan-hk1wl would have been better if some of the pics were shaken dramatically just to further hide what they are doing lol Basically taken a picture as if it was during an earthquake XD
Actually this is exactly the kind of response I would expect from a lawyer. The lawyer knows exactly what aspect of the design is relevant in terms of copyright in court and so admit all kinds of similarities which aren't relevant in legally but point out the minor differences which make it difficult to sue for copyright. Lawyers don't care if this makes sense in the eyes of regular costumers.
That first email looks like a attempt for them to get permission of you, Knowing this might cause problems. It is really nasty and coward how they really try to cover who they are, and it's proved after they send an lawyer that soon, just shady bastards
Carlos is on the money here. Their actions in themselves are an indication that they knew what they were doing was, while not necessarily illegal, certainly unethical. And running to a lawyer to scare you away with a strongly worded letter strikes me as cowardice.
@@RickVillela Exactly the people the lawyer represent need to be identified. The people making the kickstarter don't look like an LLC or a Co so then it's an "individual(s)" making this product. Without identifying them the Lawyer doesn't have a leg.
@@daadoctor I doubt it. Wouldn't a good lawyer want it to look like their client came up with the idea independently? I think they were just crazy enough to think that sending an email would keep them from being pursued.
I think there's also the possibility that they wanted to send him one off with no intentions of sending any to their backer. Basically, just trying to convince everyone it's real long enough for them to not notice it's a scam. I honestly think it might be because of how shady everhthing else is and how inflated the marketing is.
In some way Him talking about dumping plastic and using alluminium instead, is another proof that he was looking and pointing at your Astrolabicon while making the Torshn.
I came to this video because one of your shorts popped up under a video about bedazzling shoes; I think it was the one about printing replacement soles ( 😂 I just had the thought that it would be great if you could download a public design and print a replacement soul at home.) I am a fiber collage artist, a maker of sorts sure, but I’m not familiar with 3D printing. I know it exists that’s about it. But I also know that looking at the Torshn puzzle and the Astrolabicon, I would assume they were produced by the same maker--two different takes on essentially the same design. Creating different iterations of the same basic design is very common amongst makers. It’s a real shame Torshn wouldn’t just be cool. I like puzzles too as it happens. Anyway, I subscribed because I like both the items you make and your vibe.
@@Mcowling I know that polypanels aren’t particularly original. The whole idea is that they are plates with universal connectors on the edges, which isn’t a very original concept, as well as something that’s hard to come up with. The real innovation with the polypanels is how they are designed with 3D printing in mind. I just needed one of Devin’s creations that had a “product name” to rip off.
@@Mcowling Yes I do also remember playing with Zaks. Also it's like that old saying how "History is repeating itself." But in this case an independent Maker randomly comes up with a product idea to make without knowing that they're just re-inventing things.
When it comes to court, you can bring your puzzle, chop out the middle, glue it back together, and say that they're stealing your design and skipping the expensive part.
but you could argue that he copied the orb or other puzzles of this type before his too- they look similar as well and not directly the same they still look eerily similar- same is what he says here for his design and the other one. Its just...weird. Their design seems to have enough changes to make it different but still similar but he says that its a copy. Yet his is in the same boat comparing to other types of this puzzle. Theres no justice to serve here. Just hypocrisy
@@firedoctor1 I feel like you didn't actually watch the video or look at the differences between all the puzzles and the way there aren't many differences to the new one.
@@firedoctor1 yes, true. He might have borrowed it from somewhere else but remember, he’s giving out the product for free, not selling it like the Torshn. Also he modified the product and make it his
Devin, thank you for this video! I did back that kickstarter and I own a 3D printer. The day I backed it I said to myself, I've seen this thing before and know I could just 3D print it but I'd like to have it in aluminum. The project has been cancelled and I wasn't sure why. And now I know! So thank you for being an inspiration to the 3D printing community, and keep up the good work.
This is when we, as consumers, stand up to people who try to play the market in a scummy manner, and speak with our wallets by pulling our pledged funding from the Kickstarter before it ends.
Do NOT put anything out there unless you get a patent and send yourself a special delivery letter (with plans etc.) that you have dated and initialized by postal agent and keep until you have invention on market or have a situation like this to then open this letter by judge in court proving dates and invention is YOURS!!!!
That initial email instantly destroys their side of the case... Bet you anything their lawyer was not happy to see that email, if they showed them it at all lol They have literally admitted/lied enough on file at this point to completely botch any case they might have had
263 / 5000 I thought exactly the same. They probably consulted the attorney after replying to his email. The first thing he must have said to these thieves is: Why the hell did you send that admission of guilt? Now it is definitely a difficult case to defend !!
@@PabloHarguindey still, if this idea was thought up, patented, made into a product (the 1982 puzzle), then it's not really "his" when he came up with it again, even if independently is it?
@@randomnobody660 this is exactly what I'm confused about, he says repeatedly that he never made any patents to claim the design as his legally, so why is he complaining when someone makes a product out of it. I understand responding to the people contacting him about the similarities, but there's literally nothing he can do.
@@nfisher2926 Its not the mechanical design similarities he has issues with. It's that their puzzle looks almost identical, down to the colour of the balls. Its really easy for customers to get confused between the two, which is the issue. Its not that they function the same, its that they also LOOK the same.
@@randomnobody660 the idea of the puzzle design is not his and thus he's not able to patent it. However he created the distinct form of his own puzzle to which he owns the intellectual property rights. For example if you come up with a great shape for a skateboard deck, you own the intellectual property for the deck shape whether you patented it or not. You can file a copyright claim if someone did copy your design even if skateboards in general existed before you creating your special skate deck
"Hey, just wanted to let you know we copied your design."
"I'm not cool with you copying my design."
"What do you mean? We didn't copy your design."
Literally
The argument in a nutshell
This. I was thinking exactly this.
The first email literally has the line, "You had made almost exactly what we were thinking",🤣🤣
exactly this XD
They seriously sent you an email telling you they found your puzzle and decided to make it but put their “twist” on it by using different materials, then got defensive when you said the same thing in response but without the flattery.
There is a simple solution, get them into court. This would be a slam dunk case considering he has a written confession.
@@anondabomb I don't think it would be a slam dunk case. The existence of the previous puzzle and lack of any patent wrecks it.
And they didn't write a confession. Not legally. Their story is that they came up with an idea for something, saw someone else had done something almost the same and unpatented, pushed ahead with their own thing using one unpatented idea, and then kindly emailed them out of the goodness of their hearts late in the game to see if they wanted a shout out. Sure, probably utter bullshit, but you can't disprove it.
In court it would just come back to "this kind of puzzle basically EXISTED ALREADY, they objectively look different, and the mechanical parts (magnet design) are not patented." I'd bet on him losing. There's no point in patents if you just don't need them.
i mean leagly its not the same thing its a difrent shape its using a difrent material so its not the same item if you look in to trademarks if the product is simular but not exact u cant be sued
@@grantmalone Having the same idea with a little variance is one thing, but having the same exact idea, only a brief time after, and with virtually 0 difference besides the color is all a bit too much not to be just a least bit suspicious. If you really think they genuinely thought this was their own design and didn't steal the idea (granted, it's not patented yet) from him and just made up a story to hide the fact, then you are naïve. It's like if someone stole your dog and told you about how they adopted it from a shelter just last week.
Edit: Not to mention the fact that they said they got the idea from him, and then contradicted that in their kickstarter by saying they got the idea from a puzzle in the 1980s. This is the #1 surefire tell that someone is lying to you.
@@Rahnonymous i think we found one of the MAKERS
I love how they contacted YOU mentioning similarities but refused to believe in same statement they did in next emails. Wow.
So we base our ideas off of yours, I mean uh
Yeah, I imagine it would be a fantastic piece of evidence to use if legal action is taken.
The AUDACITY
Yeah
vexera
I would have an easier time believing them if they didnt LITERALLY EMAIL YOU. Thats like admitting that their puzzle was AT LEAST inspired by yours.
Exactly. It’s very unfortunate as someone who doesn’t want the hassle of legal battles, but dealing with someone like the creators of Torshn who clearly aren’t the honest “compromising” type, really feel bad for this guy, and at this point it’s purely principle, rather than going legal for the money, since clearly that isn’t what this guys about.
Yeah, it was like "I was amazed to find your design is almost the exact same as what we were making!"
5 minutes later
"What are you talking about? Our designs are nothing alike!"
At least the Kickstarter has been suspended.
They literally admitted to stealing it... "we thought it'd make a great orb puzzle re-make" "We came across your astrolabicon puzzle" "we decided to put our own spin on the shape" "we loved the magnetic system that you used" Like bruh c'mon. The proof is all in the first email.
By spin you mean they changed his puzzle into a beyblade and selled it as a rip off
are they selling it for money?
@@AlbertoTuber I don't know if they have launched it yet, but when they do, yes they will sell it as a product. Also, a lot of money was given by backers to invest in their product.
Don't think you understand what the word literal means
@@xPredatorization Literally meaning in the sense of exactly how it is. ? That's what it means.
Them: "you had made almost exactly what we were thinking!"
Also them: "I feel that the design and look is quite different."
Oh the irony.
Noo, noo. Its shaped different, completely different product, it doesn't even function the same /s.
Oh the Irony Devon claims he didn't know of Chrisopher C wiggs.
And we like (directly copied) your magnetic mechanism... (I wonder if they even changed the diameter of the circle pattern for the magnets?)
@@andrewstambaugh8030 I doubt it, but they probably will not. By .5mm. smh
Just keep an eye out for them trying to file any patents on the design. If they do, you should file a protest. If they do and you don't protest and it's approved, they'll probably come back around and try to sue you for infringing the patent.
Exactly
absolutely
@@ButterfatFarms just get the STLs onto Thingiverse now, then they can't patent it.
@@ButterfatFarms liems burner account
@@ButterfatFarms you've not been drafting or revieweing patents for very long if you think someone publishing something fairly close 40 years ago would stop someone tweaking the design and patenting it now! I mean, riddle me this: superconductors were first patented decades ago, microcontrollers too, and locks were 300 years ago. Yet all have thousands of current patents.
The kickstarter campaign has now been suspended. Congrats to all who reported Torshn
Good! I can't believe their audacity! A direct copy is an insult.
COOL
*Everyone liked that*
yeah, they still did steal 274.714US$ to people but im glad it did come to a end.
@@Andrecio64 Might eventually be returned, we'll see. It's still suspended though.
that first email is so blatantly obvious, it’s not even funny
“hi dude we really liked your design so we’ve copied it and started a kickstarter about it. do you want one? lots of love, liam xxx”
"Do you want one ? "
He probably wouldn't have gotten as mad if he had been offered a portion.
@@harperthegoblin duh, but they obviously wont give that 'hard earned' kickstarter money away just out of the kindness of their heart now will they?
@@kennethirgendwas4616 fair
It’s actually liem he deserves his e not the a the only a he deserves is asshat -_-
His spluttering protests that his design was not really similar might have held a little more water if not for that enthusiastic email he first sent you, basically admitting to copying your design.
You know, it's odd the places that I find you in the wild. You're not only one of my favorite Tubers, but you're likely the kind of person I could share a pint and a recipe with. All hail the Shrimp.
Yes, I’m not a legal expert and also not familiar with US law, but maybe this shift in claims could be a foundation for a case against them.. I know Deven doesn’t want a legal battle but it really hurts to see someone steeling such a good Design with such greedy intentions..
Woa, well hey there shrimp lmao
People should get paid for what they do, and it seems someone wants all the money from someones elses idea.
11.47 Rubbing the salt into the wound.....Ah that must hurt.
Is Atomic Shrimp going to make a video about this?...You never know.
Nice to know great minds think alike and your also a Make Anything fan.
PS my sons been out collecting dandilions for some mead we're going to make over the weekend.
This ad was showed to me in a UA-cam video. As I saw it I immediately thought: "Yep thats stolen design from Devin".
basically Liem said “we loved what you did, So we stole it!😁”
Don't be angry about that 😅
@@emilvalitov7375 yes be angry
@@emilvalitov7375 ok one of liem’s alt acccounts
@@EmbeddedWithin definitely lmao
@@emilvalitov7375 sup liam
consult lawyer.. seriously. the $ (unfortunate truth that has to be considered) involved is warranting legal action in this case. You personally may not need it or care to, but it sets a bad precedent. Not just for other creators who design things. All your future stuff and other old designs may just be copied and profit from. "Your honor given this case with the inventor clearly know about we r "inspired" from his design but not to do press legal action, it is a form of implicit consent, or implied agreement this is different enough blah blah", suddenly they can copy everything but keep a % of profit (i doubt they will be allowed to just copy / use your stuff however they want, but legal stuff is messy and this gives them firepower to take advantage of in a late date.
Worse yet, they filing a patent. Next thing you know YOU CAN'T use your own design, until you file a counter suit all of which takes a lot of time and $$$. If I used your design and did a kickstarter that got quarter of a million dollar already, you bet i'm already consulting my own lawyers, and filing patents and so on. (and contact admin of kickstarter)
I totally agree with this comment. You should take legal actions. If you can't afford it, I bet the community will be happy to help. Start a gofundme page
No. Copyright law is illegitimate.
@@thesecretkey9845
Sure, in the same way that any law is illegitimate, since every single one is made up.
The issue with copyright isn't it in itself, but how long it lasts.
Also, this has nothing to do with copyright. Patents are completely separate from copyright, and don't last nearly as long.
Good answer. There is not enough AVAILABLE protection for inventors. I think you have grounds. Do you have enough cash? Maybe crowdfund?
Consult a lawyer, what this person here says is legit.
If they manage to push their thing through, you will be forced to take down specific videos or maybe even need to pay fees for those.
This can kick you WAY more later than now if you fight this case. DO NOT BE LAZY!
Start a funding and share your story! Stand for others who are in a situation like you are!
You can see that this dude is seething in anger but he's holding it down to keep a smile for his fans ,what a great job
Meow
Woof
Moo
Ikr haha
Baaa
next they'll sue him for "stealing their design" lmao
i was thinking they would try to patent it and say he was using there patent
@@aliciakozume5928 seriously, this is going to happen. These companies that steal IP always work the same way, they steal a design that they know isn't patented, get crowdfunding, use half of it to buy a lawyer, the other half to patent it, sue the original maker for infringing their patent and use the settlement money to actually make the product. It's a total abuse of the US IP system that allows companies to bully individuals into submission
@@aliciakozume5928 the patent will have the date on it and he has proof of when his was created as well as released to the public which lines up with when they "got their idea" so that wouldn't work
My lay perspective that the behavior, though ethically dubious, was legal. For reference, I'll note that Rubik isn't able to prevent companies from creating 3x3x3 twisty puzzles. Similarly, Lego was not able to prevent Mega Bloks from creating identical, Lego-compatible bricks (i.e., their "Micro" line), despite over a dozen lawsuits in various jurisdictions.
Obviously this assumes that neither side is able to get a patent.
@@aliciakozume5928 Neither is patentable. As Devin points out in this video, there is prior art from over a decade ago. You could *try* to get a design patent, but I'm skeptical that it would be granted.
This seems to be a common thing with Kickstarter. Take an existing product from China and make a fancy video about it. Or rip off someone else's popular product.
yes
That is China's modus operandi. Rip off and mass produce. No consequences (actually CCCP encourages it).
@@GodzillaGoesGaga OP said “from China”
@@GodzillaGoesGaga I believe you mean CCP not CCCP CCCP died in 1991 along side CPSU
Making a copy of something is not theft.
I find it suspicious that they email you about how they like your design and want to take it and tweak it, and in the Kickstarter, they don’t mention you as a source of inspiration.
Exactly. They look almost the same!!
Its like that classmate who likes to copy homework and always says "Dont worry, I'll change it up a bit" but only changes minute details.
Theyve changed more than minute details tho, what theyve done constitutes a complete redesign.
@@lurac5710 like what?
@@lurac5710 Like what?
@@Drakonus_ no response XD
@@asgardian0356 Figures.
It would be funny if you started your own kickstarter for your product and when they try to sue you saying "you stole our design" you answer with "we're struggling to see similarities" lmao
That would be gold!!!
Direct roasting
"I missed the part where thats my problem"
@@muh.suudcandra5231 Now that’s gold.
“Toys are only played with for 6 months”
*Makes toy that will literally never biodegrade and has no recycling instructions*
I wonder if they realize that plastic also lasts forever. Like the problem isn’t plastic toys, it’s single use plastics like bags and bottles.
@@DDub04 exactly that’s a great point
Lol looking of at the Rubik's cube that I bought a year ago and I still constantly use it to this day.
@@michael1234252 well, they mean on average
@@CarlosAlola True.
“I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own”
― Nikola Tesla
Now thats a quote the smart kid in school says every 10 seconds right there ha
**Thomas Edison laughs evilly**
@@basedmax9029 Real and true
Could not have been said better
Big ooof
I seriously agree with the analogy to the 2x2 vs 3x3 rubiks cube. If someone showed me those two puzzles I would assume they were from the same company immediately.
Literally looks like the same thing but squished, shame that a lot Kickstarter stuff seem to be false, fake or just straight up theft
That's a bold move to email you saying "hey, we liked your design, so we stole some (all) stuff. Just wanted to let you know! Ok bye!"
No replies..? Well.. umm.. hi!
You forgot the smiley face 😂🤣🤣
Yes add a :) at the end
People who make things like to share them with people who share their interest. Looks like he pretty much crapped on a good will gesture by letting his audience talk him into seeing his work in someone else’s.
You forgot the “ :) “
9:47 shady tactic to use different angles of the puzzles in the photos. So funny
11:17 check the subtitle
Lol
It's even shadier when you realise he used the SAME torshn puzzle for both screenshots but, not only 2 DIFFERENT ones for the astrolabicon, but ALSO neither of which were the ones he said had the most similarities.
@@InnerEagle caught in 4k💀
I was actually struggling to see how they were different UNTIL he took them apart. And they say they can’t see the similarities.
They must be blind.
Are you refering to the gray and white orbs he had in front of him? Because those were both made by him, the gray one was made to look like the Torshn version for demonstrations sake.
I know, so stupid
@@alexanderakerhjelm170 glad someone was paying attention during the video. you must've had good grades in school. i was gonna comment this if you hadn't. incase people missed that small detail.
@@alexanderakerhjelm170 you can see that he basically used the design that is shown at 10:07 (on the right, the Kickstarter design) so yes, he did make it himself, but the point of making it himself was to get better footage/pictures of the similarities of the product, which is pretty blatantly a copy of his design.
Devin should release his modified design, the one that he made to look like theirs, for free on his shop xD
This is genius
That's what I thought too, haha
Thisss
And then say they look nothing alike
... and claim prior art of they start complaining. ;)
Friend: “hey can I copy your homework”
Me: “sure change it up a bit so it looks like you didn’t copy it”
Friend: copies name
me copying from wiki
Everything be cool until the lecturer says, "Seems this group of boys trying to be smart, zero mark for their assignment."
Me: Wait a minute, a group? Look at friend.
Friend: Nope, not me.
'Hey I made a copy'
'hmm maybe we can work together'
'I didn't copy u shut up'
You guys are getting friends to copy you!
The thing I would be most concerned about is them getting a patant and sueing you for selling your design
Well I literally don’t know anything about law at all but since he made his design first, they can’t get a patent probably because it’s not original. Even if they get a patent because people view it as original and don’t think it looks like his design, they probably still can’t sue. This is because if they sue for the similarities of the design, then they are openly admitting the design looks similar and since his design went first, they would lose the lawsuit probably.
@@mainhoodie well later the day of creation will disappear and will just turn to the month or year and no one will know who did it first
@@mihailyuhasz1597 there’s literally an email of them saying that the Torshn puzzle will be inspired by him
@@mainhoodie yeah fair point
Oh, so you mean what happened to the SCP Foundation in Russia a couple years ago 😀
i love how he says "and now their ads are topping of on my video-" and then an ad shows up about them
13:55
You saw their ad I got shampoo ad
samw
we have the same name
Xylophone
Their first email contact with you is pretty much their admission of using your intellectual property spelled out in black and white. They deserve to be taken down for such blatant disregard, particularly in launching a commercial enterprise on the back of someone elses property.
whos gonna take down his design then? its eerily similar to the Orb and other types of these puzzles, no? oh explain the differences then.
@@firedoctor1 they are practically the same product but one is the original and the other is a copy cat and the date the original was made was earlier than when the kick starter was made.
@@dadguy8415 yeah, doesnt matter because the world doesnt work like that, he didnt pay for a pattern license and thats it. Laws are made to protect the rich not everyone. thats how it works.
@@andreniki8864 All you need is proof of design. Patten license is good but not a sure fire way of winning. The simplest way of doing it is to make up a design on paper. Take and place it in a envelope and mail it to yourself. That mail date would be solid evidence of creation and just never open the letter. When someone challenges then simply bring that unopened letter infront of a judge or legal recording and open it.
@@silentferret1049 write this to the guy who uploaded the video. Very pointless telling me
"we got inspiration from your puzzle" "makes almost exact copy" "no no no we got inspiration from the sphere puzzle over twenty years ago"
I'm sorry to tell you that 1981 was well over 20 years ago, I know, we're so old already :( 🤣
@@francescotubaro2500 that was a quote btw, he didn’t say it himself
Point is it doesn't matter if they make an exact copy and sell it because he doesn't own the rights to anything when it comes to his puzzle. How it works aesthetically or the mechanisms because he has no patent.
@@patman0250 Not true, unregistered design rights are recognized in a bunch of countries not least of which the EU grants a minimum level of 3 years protection though member states can offer more. The UK still offers the same 10 years they offered before Brexit at least currently not that this is one they seem in a hurry to change its individual rights they want to roll back not business rights.
@@seraphina985 No you couldn't be more wrong, not only does he have no rights to what he's made considering he absolutely claimed nothing. And he put the designs out there for people "get inspired" by his designs even flat out letting people use them as if they couldn't already. That gives him less rights off the bat. He will lose every single Court battle just on that alone. And on top of that there's absolutely no proof that they completely copied him. Considering that it was basically open source to begin with. And both are a basic copys of another design, the original. I'm telling you if you don't patent or obtain rights to your designs. Nobody grants you anything and you basically lose every time. This is a hard lesson for him to learn, always register your designs legally and own every aspect to your work. Fun fact just cuz you create something doesn't mean it's automatically protected from being stolen or copyd. Obtaining the rights to your work means everything. Even then there's loopholes that can screw you over.
Well. Good news, everyone! Kickstarter has suspended funding for the Torshn project on Kickstarter! Yaaay!
All he had to do was say sorry about taking your design, but instead, he insisted even though the evidence is against him. Because of his ignorance, he instead got a one-way ticket to a big boycott against his product and possibly even strikes. Yo get the point at least.
i really really hope they get a strike , that was a low move of them to say "you didn't pay to say it was yours so we're free to sell it as our own" , it would hurt to see nothing done about it
Lol, that's the opposite of the truth. Why would admitting he took the design help his case?
@Max Roderick you could've been nice about it... You get the point I was trying to say that it's not right to take others things. I did not need you to write an essay.
@@1BeGe same with you, but you just don't understand the message I was conveying. Lol.its up there ^^^^∆∆∆
Guys chill in the comment section. If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say it. As MLK Jr. Once said, "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." I know this might not fit in this exactly, but you get the point, hate only causes problems, so just chill out and don't hate on others.
Torshn: we liked your design so we made it out of aluminum
Also Torshn: What??? Of course we developed this product ourselves!!!
UA-cam did something good for once. I thought their ad was cool and went to go check it out later. Then a day later I get this in my recommended. I'm sorry you have to go through this but I hope things get better for you. You seem very genuine and what they did was very unprofessional and seems ever so slightly illegal...
Me too, saw the ad yesterday and now the videos is on the recommendations.
Same thing happened to me. I thought I saw that puzzle design before, but I didn't remember from where!
Same here, I love Rubik's cubes and I watch a yter that does rubiks puzzles, like can you solve a 4x4 like a 2x2 or some silly stuff like that, I got a torshne ad on one of his videos, and then later found this in my recommendations
same here
Torshn: hey I forgot to do the homework, can I copy your answer?
Devin: sure just make sure to change it
Torshn: ...
more like:
Torshn: oops forgot to do my homework.. oh Devin did his, let me copy it
Torshn: hey Devin just wanted to let you know that i copied your homework
Devin: what no
There's an old adage: "It's easier to seek forgiveness than permission." It seems pretty obvious they ripped you off in the hopes that once they had their ball rolling with enough momentum, you'd have no way to make it stop before it ran right over you.
yep, feels like they wanted a fully functioning design first so that there would be no way for him to patent it at all, and just accept their freebie and be happy.
it can actually work if one asks for forgiveness in the form of ongoing royalties. just empty praise doesn't work.
The fact they contacted you then responded on kick starter stating you didn’t respond is the most damming price of evidence for me
Well there are plenty of comments on their Kickstarter now (and cancelled pledges).
I'm sorry Devon. It's really awful. I hope their campaign get's kicked off Kickstarter.
Torshn will just make a bootleg kickstarter called puntstartr
@@THCMusicBlog lmao that’s actually true. Hopefully Kickstarter kicks Torshn to the curb.
KickStarter couldn't care less... they are side-kick-scammers.
Don't know if the canceled pledges and comments are a good thing ; seeing how they responded to Devon's legitimate remarks about their design, I'm a bit concerned they'd hold him accountable for their loss and bad advertisement and actually drag him into some legal bullshit.
Kickstarter dont care. I had proof a project creator took peoples money an ran. kickstarter pretty much said "you backed him so its your fault" Unfortunately like most companies money motivates them.
“We want to be sustainable!”
*makes so it lasts forever and doesn’t break down*
@ well i think their point was, that let's say people get bored of this puzzle, because be honest a lot of people will forget about it at some point. So what happens to that puzzle when it gets thrown out? Lasting materials are important, but so are the ramifications of creating something that CAN last through so much.
@@adamxm1014 that makes no sense whatsoever. if you want your product sustainable, you make it with materials that can sustain the test of time and erosion
@ Or you want easily erodible and recyclable materials. By erodible I'm talking about biodegradable of course. Part of the issue with plastic is that it does not decompose in the ocean. I imagine you have heard of the great pacific garbage patch. Just a huge patch of trash, which is not going away on it's own any time soon. Sustainability in a product by definition includes environmental impacts. So creating an infinite pool of products which cannot erode into the environment (safely) isn't the best idea. Because look at the ocean.
@@adamxm1014 ?? get your progressive newspeak out of here. no one said anything about environmentalism. something sustainable is tough and lasts. has nothing to do with "saving the earth" or whatever you hippies think you're doing
@ Literally google product sustainability. Sustainability is inherently tied to the environment, because every product, quite literally, is made of resources which originate from the environment. Sustainability goes beyond "will the product last". It is a question of, can I sustain this, isn't it? So when you are asking if you can sustain it, you have to consider not only the availability of resources (among many other things) but you also have to consider the ramifications of whatever you are trying to sustain. Burning fossil fuels is not sustainable, and why is that the case? Well I can give you a really 'progressive newspeak' answer but the most basic answer is that fossil fuels are a limited resource. We WILL run out of fossil fuels. Answering questions of sustainability isn't possible without looking at the entire picture of what goes into (and what comes out of) a product, and you simply can't do that without also considering what that means for the environment.
"And to top it off, their ads are now running on my UA-cam videos-" *Ad Plays*
Same happenes with me 😂
Chances of getting that kind of advertisement
Same
youtube want me watch drama,they give the ad and then this video.
coincidence,i think not
*Just pay $200 US for an attorney consultation, is that simple*
You don't need to be into interchangeable conversations with nobody except to those who can provide proper legal advice. And get a second opinion if you need to with a second attorney too.
True
200$ is kinda steep but stll ye
@@bologna8182 maybe if you're unemployed or a child lmao
and then have them tell you the designs are difrent enoguth to say with out a doupt that even if he had a patient it wouldnt be ileagle
I get not wanting to engage in legal battles as a principle. But the unfortunate truth is that if you want to keep your rights, you sometimes have to fight for them. This appears to be one of those times so if you want your intellectual property / creation to stay yours, you're going to have to go through the effort it takes to bonk these thieves until they stop and/or sit down to have that conversation you wanted.
Liem: "struggling to see similarities"
Me: More than half way blind never heard of this only saw 2 photots. "yeah... i see nooo similarities not like its just 1 layer less..."
@Crayfish Thats his point
@Crayfish r/halfwoooosh?
Shout out to the fellow homies that got the notification about it being suspended, mainly the ones that reported! Let's gooo
As a designer and a Vietnamese myself, it’s embarrassing to see another VNese “designer” doing such an action like this, but I’m not going to sit around and do nothing about it. Thanks to your video, I can share it to the designer community in VN and let them know about this situation.
Thank you!
In the long run that does nothing. But still thanks
Who cares it’s just a plastic toy LUL
@@spoopyscaryskelebones3846
I'm not trying to be rude here but..
for you or me...yeah it's just a plastic toy
But just think how much time this guy must have invested in planing and comming up with this design, 3D print it, fix any errors the design must have had etc
@@spoopyscaryskelebones3846 Oh yeah Gundam is also "plastic toy" too.Imagine how much money Bandai could lost and how many bad rumours could ruin their business if they keep some bastards make a less quality and cheaper vesion of their "toy". In case you don't know, a "plastic toy" from Bandai is expensive af.
I would be lying if I said I didn't hope their kickstarter absolutely FAILS because of their ignorant attempt at thievery
ha?
True
On their kickstarter page it says, "$252,323 pledged of $6,100 goal." It looks like they're going to get away with this.
Hi Devon, here via one of my Patrons. Really sorry to hear you are going through this. The first email is quite damning from them. It directly contradicts everything that follows. IP law is a murky area where the side with the most money comes out on top. Even if you had a patent, someone can abuse it and get away with it unless you want to spend a lot of time and money chasing it up. Keep your chin up and keep making those fantastic creations! Michael
Thanks Michael, I appreciate the support!
I read this in your voice.
I wonder if the puzzle will become prohibitively expensive as it’s made from machined aluminum and people looking for a cheaper version will go with Devons design.
Michael, would be interessant help do a video of this situation sharing this video too, good friendship action.
@@drew899 Perhaps the whole thing is a scam and part of the reason they sent that email was to send one of the only actual copies they had made. It'd not uncommon for Kickstarters to create a prototype or model and never deliver.
company: "hey we know our product is similar to yours so we just wanted to reach out to make sure it was okay to make"
make anything: "yeah that's ok but can you please change it up a bit because it's pretty similar to mine"
company: "how about no"
Nikola Tesla, greatest inventor of 20th century once said:“Nije mi žao što su ukrali moje ideje, već što nisu imali svoje!” or in english "I don't care that they stole my idea . . I care that they don't have any of their own"
yea but who made the money? he died poor so I think he should have cared more
@@alf3071 money means nothing to people with a brain
Can I have all of your money?
@@lassekongo189 ok, give me your money then
@@dacat2880 lmao
"Hi silly billy! I saw your super design and decided to take it for myself. Hope that's no problem, teehee~"
-"Hey, you stole my design?"
"No I didn't. This was always my design."
Well no, but actually yes
LMAO
This video came as a Random UA-cam recommendation however I am impressed with how you laid out the situation. Its pretty clear they saw that you don't patent your ideas and took advantage of it. A valuable lesson.
I think the real lesson is that some other more enterprising party has raised $100,000 to manufacture this entertaining toy.
I would say "go take this interesting design to China and have cheap copies made and flood the dollar stores," except I might just do that myself.
Oh yes, forgot to say: now that this is public domain, *anybody* can take advantage of it. Plus we don't have to write you a nice letter or offer you a free toy.
@@Grunchy005 hi liem
Same here... I watch a lot of makers but was unaware of this channel. I’m now subbed!
@@Grunchy005
It's not public domain unless it's public domain.
You have a copyright on creative work the moment you have put it into a tangible form. You can sue for the infringement of your copyright, but not for damages.
You file a copyright with the government in order to sue for damages sustained from copyright infringement.
Me after the first side by side: oh those are similar but not the same
Me after seeing the movements of the puzzle: okay that's the same
Seeing the insides: that is exactly the same
Seeing the images the lawyer sent: these two products are the same
You can report an IP violation on the Kickstarter page. I went to do it on your behalf, but it says I must be the owner of the IP to file the claim.
Please file the paperwork for Tippi Tree. That has legitimate big box store appeal, and it will be ripped off.
this needs to be higher up
@@oliverbladek2137 I agree. As Torshn "Care for small creators" they surely would never steal something from Devin. I believe he should pursue legal action against Torshn however this would be time consuming and unpleasant, something that he shouldn't have to deal with
Commenting so devin can see this
The problem is that they can contest a DMCA copyright claim and would likely be successful in doing so. Filing a DMCA claim without legal merit would actually place Devin in jeopardy.
I would donate to Devin's legal fund if he chose to go through with litigation. I learned the hard way that "nice guys finish last" and if they were bold enough to rip off Devin, they will certainly rip off more people if they aren't already doing so.
They made a response in their Kickstarter comment section and called us gatekeepers haha.
Lmao losers
Lmfao misuse of buzzwords
It’s true tho, imagine some car maker complaining that someone else make cars
@@patriciabrighton335 This is a *tiny* bit different than manufacturing a car.
@@patriciabrighton335 It is very clearly not the same as "some car maker complaining that someone else makes cars." Torshn is very obviously heavily inspired by the Astrolobicon, and quite literally admit to this in their first email before trying to backpedal when they were told they couldn't profit off someone else's design. To better fit your anology, imagine I took a Mercedes, swapped out the tires, logo, and dashboard, then started selling it. Wrong for Mercedes to complain? I don't think so.
You might be able to avoid a legal battle but also report your intellectual property to Kickstarter. It could result in a battle or their campaign would just be removed and they would go on to rip off another idea. This is very common and the people behind them don't want to be known because then anyone would be able to connect the dots and see that they are nothing more than a bunch of thieves. I say, go to battle. If not for you, then for everyone else that they take advantage of and can't. (assuming you can.)
agreed
whenever i see a comment supporting a legal battle, i'm gonna comment on it so hopefully he can see more of those.
is absolutely outrageous of them to steal something and then try to act cute.
"hey i absolutely loved your clothes... so i went to your home and took them to wear them myself, how cruel of you to say i stole them "
admiration is not an excuse for plagiarism even if it was sincere and i don't think it was the case.
I Totally agree
@@ScytheManiac Well said
It’s very easy to report this to KS. Scroll down to the bottom of their story, click/tap then choose . That’s it!
Report it as much as you want, KS will do nothing. He has no rights on this product no patents nothing he is just a sore loser.
I got an email this morning that the Kickstarter campaign was suspended and is being investigated.
Did Torshn steal your design? Short answer; Yes, yes they did
I disagree, if you read the email sent by the lawyer its very substantially different.
@@lurac5710 I disagree, if you read the first email the "company" sent, they basically admitted they copied his design then backtracked when he said he's not cool with it.
@@Bakashi The only thing they explicitly "copied" (and that's a stretch, at that) was the magnet placement and stuff. Honestly, it's substantially different. This is but a temper tantrum in my opinion
@@franciscodelico how
@@Bakashi I think he was joking...
Love how liem is insisting on "nah bro I dont see any similarities". Its literally the exact same thing with one less layer or what you wanna call it.
Yeah, basically as he stated it's like a 2x2 vs 4x4 Rubik's cube; outside of material and build quality the design is identical.
The first email you received pretty much was them admitting they stole your design. I would say you need to get a copyright lawyer on your case cause this is one you definitely can win
It very clearly isn't. Unless you mean to imply people who make Rubiks Cubes that aren't Hasbro are also in copyright infringement? A 2x2 rubik cube and a 3x3 rubik cube are completely different in design, despite having the same idea, they have different mechanical functions.
He doesn't have any design patents, like he said in the video, he literally can't do anything about it because he doesn't legally own the design.
I love how they said they got alot of inspiration and gave him credit in the email to him but then on their site they gave no credit and refused to give him any credit
You know you're doing something right when your ideas are good enough to get ripped off
But yeah. This is... dissapointing
_cough_ turbine rotary tool _cough_
Dyson had the same problem with is vacuum cleaner. First none wanted it but once he decided to produce it himself, the big companies started copying it and launching endless legal suits with the hope that he would run out of money to go to the court.
That's sadly how the pattern industry works and it's total bs. Check for "troll law firms" and you'll see the level bullshitery that these "protection of the inventor" are.
kl;'
Probably thinking of the words he could replace the ... with
Its not even the idea, i think he's fine with the idea being ripped. Its the very similar design.
This is when you get an attorney to write back to their attorney. They are scared. And they're douchebags on their best day. The comments from their own backers are scathing.
So when are we going to crowdfund Legal Eagle to represent him. lmao
It could be that the plan is not to manufacture in the United States. Or it could be simply to raise money and not make anything
Why would they need an attorney this can't do anything because about it, he doesn't own the rights to anything. He made a puzzle and that's it. He didn't patent nothing he didn't make sure that nobody can copy it. That's on him so as far as I'm concerned anybody can copy his design and try to sell it.
@@patman0250 he's not complaining about the fact they copied it for a profit. *he's mad because they said they were INSPIRED by his design AFTER they already made plans to sell the product, then went back on their word saying they instead were "building off of" a completely different puzzle from the 80s, then tried to go even FURTHER by using a law-firm to try and scare him into backing off from the subject a week later*. This isn't about them copying it, it goes far further than that...
This is about them saying that they:
"Were inspired" by his Sphericon to having no part of it when confronted on the topic.
"didn't see similarities" when he pointed out (with proof) that it was too close to his design and was up to helping make it unique to avoid similarities.
"100% want to be transparent" when they won't even say what company they are! (even the lawyer didn't say in his message!)
"SUPPORT SMALL TIME DESIGNERS AND CREATORS" when they just flat out slammed this small time designer like he was the one in the wrong, and proceed to silence anyone that claims otherwise in their comments on the kick-starter.
@@jazztocountry1047 That's what I think their intent is. Too many fly by night scammers.
That'd be funny if the 1980 puzzle creator sued them and they proceed to say they don't see a similarity...
Ha, great point!
@@ButterfatFarms no you can't say something is copied just due to the color choice, this is my 1st time visiting this channel but I have recently watched the ad by Torshn and I was really impressed by the puzzle..and It really isn't fair that they are just copying the IP without any credit,I say so because that orb and Devin's puzzle are completely different designs ,they both function differently which is not the case here(as both puzzles are essentially same,but one is smaller in size as he said he's design 3x3 where their is 2x2)..so Devin is clearly in the right here..and again Devin created a different puzzle from the orb ,whereasTorshn just made a smaller version of his...sorry for the long reply,,it's just frustrating to watch someone's effort being questioned...especially if the person allowed other people to use his design for personal use and even provided the prints..
@@ButterfatFarms yeah I just saw the Orb Puzzle after reading your comment,cause ofc when he said they are both different ,I thought in the way they both work...which is not the case,so I agree it was foolish of me to give him the benefit of doubt,since it is entirely possible that he came across the orb when developing his version of the puzzle,which he got the idea to develop from the reddit video which he explains, so he basically merged those both ideas together and came up with Astrolobicon...as per patent he said he didn't filed it cause it takes around 2000$ which is too much for a personal project but that also denies him to claim the property,but the Torshn one is straight knock off of his design since they both are essentially the same,one just has 2 less slots in each base...my point was that Torshn should have mentioned him somewhere on their kickstarter since they straight up copied his reiteration...and are denying that they didn't even had the Idea that Astolobicon exists...which is clearly false as evident by their first mail and then denial in later ones...and the comment on their kickstarter which clearly says "Devin didn't responded to our mail" on the same question raised by someone ,when he clearly did...is sickening..As I said its my first time visiting this channel..So my views aren't biased towards anyone but this guy provided the 3d prints for personal use..so clearly he isn't after the money...the point of the video is they are not acknowledging his design...All I am saying Torshn isn't giving him credit and as this is going to be a puzzle that's going to sell at least million copies..you get the point..
@@ButterfatFarms and if you are TLDR kind of person I just said yeah I agree,they are both knock offs of the Orb, but Astrolobicon is knock off of the Orb and Torshn's puzzle is knock off of the Astrolobicon...since their is a considerable difference in Orb and Devin's one ,but not enough in Devin's and Torshn's ...Torshn is obligated to give credits to Devin but they won't do so cause then it will clearly appear as knockoff and wouldn't be beneficial to them as he provided the prints...but since Orb is an old puzzle and their is considerable diff in Orb and Torshn's puzzle, people will believe that Torshn came up with this which they clearly didn't
@@ButterfatFarms yo chill out man
“We stole your design. We are going to try to make money off of your design. What do you think? We can settle in court because you done first what thought. Keep up the good work!”
"you done first what thought"
r/ihadastroke
@@ExtemTheHedgehogLol …done what *we* thought.
@@winniethepooh1931 ok thanks I was confused for a sec XD
Looks to me like the 80s version is prior art to all of the newer designs.
I agree. They all look extremely similar to the 80s version until you start nitpicking details.
Ayy lmao
Was just gonna post this i still have a 80s version in my closet somewhere its just bigger than these but identical in function
I think the defining trait is the magnetic lock system which is a flat out copy
Yes. I agree. If the owner of the original still has an intellectual property rights/licenses in place....both new puzzles are in trouble. Not for sharing how they work, but for trying to profit from them.
Wow, that takes balls. "Hey, just a heads up we're stealing your design, would you like us to send you evidence?"
Honestly the email kinda sounded like “We saw what you did with yours, and we don’t really want to make our own, so we are going to take yours. We love the idea and we are gonna raise money to do mass production. I’ll send you something that you practically already have because, well you made it, and then not give you any profit. Thanks!! 😊”
You forgot the exclamation points and the smiley face!! :)
@@bigtimetimmyjim6486 fixed it
"not looking for a review"
"Hey we're lazy so can we take your ideas. Thanks!! :)
Yes
Funding has been suspended on the clones kickstarter.
Looks like it's going in the right direction.
Keep fighting Devin! :)
The fact that they made it THEN emailed you without even asking for permission or anything like that shows me that they knew what they were doing and did it on purpose
Really taking the saying that its better to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission seriously
@@plasmaj4377 That applies to your parents/bosses, not to copyright infringements lmao
Yep. That first email was definitely carefully worded to try to clear themselves of wrong doing before the launch.
One thing they hammer into us in all of my product design classes is to do through research to make sure our designs aren't inadvertent copies of existing products. Even assuming they had never seen your puzzle, there's no excuse for this.
but they clearly had seen it "you made what we were thinking! so we took it and went with it! hope you like it!" _two emails later_ "its do different!" theyre just gaslighting
@@ButterfatFarms I think the difference being that he wasn't looking to sell the design and make money out of it. He uploaded the design process and everything for people to see and learn from.
They, on the other hand, sought to monetise the design and sent conflicting responses about the inspirations for their product.
Then what's his excuse for copying The Orb from Parker Bros?
@@GrimGearheart Parker bros could have had a patent on the design which would have expired 20 years ago, and it doesnt violate copyright because they are obviously different in shape. Torshn took his exact design, sliced out the middle, changed the magnets and called it a day.
@@ButterfatFarms Patents like that only last 20 years and its obviously a different product. Torshns is near identical to his.
you can report them on Kickstart, go to the bottom of their Torshn page and file a report on intellectual property violation. Although not for certain it is an option
I reported them for copying an existing product
I love you
I love you SO much for the bible.
This is why you should always add some unnecessary thing to your invention. That way when someone steals the idea, they will add that unnecessary part, so you’ll know they stole the idea
That's the way some dictionaries do it. They put in a few made-up words and then look if other companies also put them in theirs.
@@Max_G4 yeah I heard of that too.
@Figgy Newton no you see, I added a period, unlike other people.
At the bottom of Torshn's kickstarter page, you can report the project to kickstarter as violating one of their rules, that rule being that it is copying another product, and then it asks you to link the original and you can provide a link to this video. If enough of us report the project to kickstarter and link this video it is possible that kickstarter will take down the project and refund the investors and they will even probably send an explanation message to investors that will link back to the Astrolabicon as the source product. It literally takes three clicks and pasting the link from here, go do it y'all
Done. Signed sealed delivered lol. I made a Kickstarter account just to report it. I hadn't used Kickstarter till now
just did so too
Done, thanks for suggesting this. Very easy to do, and is definitely a more effective recourse than flaming the thieves on social media. Hope more people think of this.
Done, bump this comment up
Done
‘’Struggling to see similarities’’ I’ve only seen two photos of the puzzles and I can see that they’re the same 😂
One is slightly less round
@@leovang3425 almost the only difference lmao🤣
@@smiledonnice that's what I'm saying
@@leovang3425 yeah i know, i was laughing to it, not against you but with you, because i was just commenting my reaction when i saw your comment, basically agreeing to you
I have bigger problem finding diferences
As a guy who had his patent absolutely infringed and then threatened by a multi billion dollar military supplier when I called them out, I can relate.
I gotta know the story... if it's one you can safely tell
^ I agree with the top comment.
Wow.
If you can safely Tell this without getting in truble i would love to hear the story
Now you gotta tell this story bro
Devin,
Why not start your own kickstarter, and give the people what they really want? Put your own kickstarter for a production run of an aluminum astrolabicon.
i cant tell if your angry or not
Astrolabacus might make some noise
The way they changed the description of their puzzle really sounds like they didn't wanna get told they plagiarized in an English class.
Just interacting so this gets recommended to more. Cause this needs to be seen by more people!
I actually think because of this type of comments I got it recommended to me
good job
Same
It'd be awesome if other 3d printing channels made something about this as well.
This isn't the first time a community design has been used commercially, and surely won't be the last, it'd be great to see companies put on blast by the community when this happens; like when everyone got on Creality's back for not releasing the firmware for the Ender 3 initially (trying to hide that it was Marlin), until Naomi Wu talked to them.
I feel I should say something here, in case it would help.
same for me
11:17 "You're such a turd" Lol I don't know if that was intentional
Thats what i was thinking
Haha I didn't notice that at first. That's halarious. Pretty sure torshn is owned by the people who own Kickstarter. I mean not hard to believe a company trying to scam people in more than one way. Lol just a thought
I just read that then read your comment lmao
@@n8dawg727 Yea that might be true. Considering the history of Kickstarter in general. And torshn is gaining popularity even through the controversy. It's disgusting. On their comments page, there's only 1 person that passionately defends torshn, I find it suspicious and they even go the lengths to blame Devin for it. I don't know much either, but yea this was an experience...
"To top it off, their ads are now running on my video's."
That's it, they'e gone too far.
*Let's make an astrolabicon gatling turret to make an end to their dishonesty.*
"yo whasup, stole ya design, do you mind?"
"yes i do actually"
"wait what, what are you talking about we came up with this ourselves, see heres proof"
"....................."
bruh please don't troll my games with your yummi jgl...as per this lol yeah
You can report Torshn's project at the very bottom of their kickstarter page. I recommend everyone do that since it might cause Kickstarter to pull their project.
Oh no, it wouldn't. Kickstarter really is not interested in biting the hand that feeds them 5% of the pledged amount.
Else I know a few campaigns that would have been terminated.
@@Sebazzz1991 Well you're probably right. Kickstarter isn't letting me even create an account to report the project, so I won't bother. I can still post Devin's video all over their social media pages though!
@@Sebazzz1991 You are right on this one. The only campaigns that Kickstarter cancelled we’re ones that we’re either so improbable that nearly everyone realized it as fraud (Laser-razor as an example), or the sozial media backlash was big enough that it would have been more hurtful for them to keep the campaign running.
Furthermore, considering some of the campaigns over the years, it is also highly likely that the “makers“ of the Torshn puzzle do not come form California. There sadly are so many Chinese/Taiwanese or similar factories hiding their true identity to easily manipulate those people looking to support a small company from their own country.
@@Benlyd Yeah its unfortunate that these entities are able to get away with this. Hopefully if they aren't shut down, that they at least deliver on the project idea and don't end up taking the money and running, as is the case with many community funded projects. Thanks for your insight!
Reported.
It’s clear you inspired their design. A simple royalty would have been a proper response from them. Not sure what they were trying to achieve with the first email but clearly validated they new about your work. That is people though. Share your designs and some will steal it. Just know that your design was so awesome it created a $245k Kickstarter. I’d follow suit and launch a Kickstarter of your design and offer prebuilt units in recyclable plastic. You clearly have proof in their words yours is not the same as theirs so no infringement. See what $ your design can generate.
True but the only problem is that make anything isnt getting any of the cut tho it would only be fair If he did get a small portion of it atleast (but this is my opinion)
What a great response from CHEP. You got this man on your side Devon and I go to him because I think he's great and inspirational as well as you are. I think you two should join forces and battle idiots like this company
They were hoping he would accept the free "gift". Had he done so, they would then claim he knew about and basically endorsed their design and thus relinquishing any claim he could have made. It is fairly common with ripoff companies to blatantly copying a design, offering a seaming benign gift, and then claiming no wrong doing. As a mechanical designer, it is a direct copy. The minor changes they did make would be the equivalent of Vanilla Ice claiming one note is not "Under Pressure".
An attempt to flatter him or something, but what did they think the response would be?? It is so weird. I suppose they were trying to get ahead of the criticism from potential customers and fans of Make Anything. Maybe they were already catching flak from people and thought they had to do something and hoped Devon would give them his blessing.
@@jeradw7420 yes I agree. But it's what he does now. For them to get lawyers involved just proves their intentions. They are just after making money from your design Devon. Tell them its £100000.
Ayy! The kickstarter is down!
Nice to see their lawyer's response was basically "yeah we stole it, what are you gonna do about it?"
lmfao so true
And using black and white blurred image
@@JamilKhan-hk1wl would have been better if some of the pics were shaken dramatically just to further hide what they are doing lol
Basically taken a picture as if it was during an earthquake XD
Actually this is exactly the kind of response I would expect from a lawyer. The lawyer knows exactly what aspect of the design is relevant in terms of copyright in court and so admit all kinds of similarities which aren't relevant in legally but point out the minor differences which make it difficult to sue for copyright. Lawyers don't care if this makes sense in the eyes of regular costumers.
@@CHR15718N they also care only about the hours they can run up too.
That first email looks like a attempt for them to get permission of you, Knowing this might cause problems. It is really nasty and coward how they really try to cover who they are, and it's proved after they send an lawyer that soon, just shady bastards
Carlos is on the money here. Their actions in themselves are an indication that they knew what they were doing was, while not necessarily illegal, certainly unethical. And running to a lawyer to scare you away with a strongly worded letter strikes me as cowardice.
@@RickVillela Exactly the people the lawyer represent need to be identified. The people making the kickstarter don't look like an LLC or a Co so then it's an "individual(s)" making this product. Without identifying them the Lawyer doesn't have a leg.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyer told them to send the first email.
@@daadoctor I doubt it. Wouldn't a good lawyer want it to look like their client came up with the idea independently? I think they were just crazy enough to think that sending an email would keep them from being pursued.
I think there's also the possibility that they wanted to send him one off with no intentions of sending any to their backer. Basically, just trying to convince everyone it's real long enough for them to not notice it's a scam. I honestly think it might be because of how shady everhthing else is and how inflated the marketing is.
In some way Him talking about dumping plastic and using alluminium instead, is another proof that he was looking and pointing at your Astrolabicon while making the Torshn.
It so is.
That's actually a really good point.
I came to this video because one of your shorts popped up under a video about bedazzling shoes; I think it was the one about printing replacement soles ( 😂 I just had the thought that it would be great if you could download a public design and print a replacement soul at home.)
I am a fiber collage artist, a maker of sorts sure, but I’m not familiar with 3D printing. I know it exists that’s about it.
But I also know that looking at the Torshn puzzle and the Astrolabicon, I would assume they were produced by the same maker--two different takes on essentially the same design. Creating different iterations of the same basic design is very common amongst makers.
It’s a real shame Torshn wouldn’t just be cool. I like puzzles too as it happens. Anyway, I subscribed because I like both the items you make and your vibe.
I can’t wait for the “PolyPLATES” Kickstarter ‘inspired’ by your videos.
Thanks for the idea :D
The irony is that Devin's Polypanels are copies of a pre-existing toy I remember fondly from my childhood, Zaks.
@@Mcowling I know that polypanels aren’t particularly original. The whole idea is that they are plates with universal connectors on the edges, which isn’t a very original concept, as well as something that’s hard to come up with. The real innovation with the polypanels is how they are designed with 3D printing in mind. I just needed one of Devin’s creations that had a “product name” to rip off.
Dont give them ideas!
@@Mcowling Yes I do also remember playing with Zaks. Also it's like that old saying how "History is repeating itself." But in this case an independent Maker randomly comes up with a product idea to make without knowing that they're just re-inventing things.
When it comes to court, you can bring your puzzle, chop out the middle, glue it back together, and say that they're stealing your design and skipping the expensive part.
It’s so frustrating seeing his eyes and ears reddening up. Best luck to you and I hope that justice will be served upon them
but you could argue that he copied the orb or other puzzles of this type before his too- they look similar as well and not directly the same they still look eerily similar- same is what he says here for his design and the other one. Its just...weird. Their design seems to have enough changes to make it different but still similar but he says that its a copy. Yet his is in the same boat comparing to other types of this puzzle. Theres no justice to serve here. Just hypocrisy
@@firedoctor1 I feel like you didn't actually watch the video or look at the differences between all the puzzles and the way there aren't many differences to the new one.
@@firedoctor1 oh look, a Torshn representative
It seems to me, that there aren't any them, and there is only one person, who just ,,borrowed'' the Astrolabicon design to launch it on Kickstarter.
@@firedoctor1 yes, true. He might have borrowed it from somewhere else but remember, he’s giving out the product for free, not selling it like the Torshn. Also he modified the product and make it his
Devin, thank you for this video! I did back that kickstarter and I own a 3D printer. The day I backed it I said to myself, I've seen this thing before and know I could just 3D print it but I'd like to have it in aluminum. The project has been cancelled and I wasn't sure why. And now I know! So thank you for being an inspiration to the 3D printing community, and keep up the good work.
This is when we, as consumers, stand up to people who try to play the market in a scummy manner, and speak with our wallets by pulling our pledged funding from the Kickstarter before it ends.
If they play thier Marketing right, wich is pretty easy, that just wont happen.
they made over 200.000 $ with their scam
When i saw it i thought it was a legit project
Lol, you should just make an astrolabicon that mimics theirs exactly and aggressively market the free STL files :^)
Oh THAT would be epic!
Perfect solution. And sell the marbles as kits for the 3D printer guys. Job done....
YES
I also saw the Kickstarter ad and I was like "Wait isn't that Devin's?"
Same. I almost commented but decided against it.
Which is exactly why it's a trade dress issue that would be upheld by a court.
Do NOT put anything out there unless you get a patent and send yourself a special delivery letter (with plans etc.) that you have dated and initialized by postal agent and keep until you have invention on market or have a situation like this to then open this letter by judge in court proving dates and invention is YOURS!!!!
"...feigned ignorance and unwillingness to compromise." That's it in a nutshell; that is how they will get away with this with no repercussions.
Why are you complicit with it?
Feigned ignorance*, you misheard it
@@Colorics Duly changed, good catch. Although it amounts to the same thing... 'What? Me? Noooo, I couldn'ta stole your idea...'
@@mauriciolomeli2940 I'm sorry, I don't understand you.
I just hope that this video blows up a lot so that they have a PR nightmare, they need to face the consequences of stealing someone’s design…
Yeah but, who are "they"?
Just go ahead and assume they have already done this in the past and gotten away with it then too
but what do I know^
@@Attewir you’re probably right. They are probably a shady company that makes money off other people’s work without a patent.
I have no clue who this dude is so, I guess it's spreading?
Bad publicity is still publicity
1. Create your own Kickstarter
2. Set up a GoFundMe or something to crowdfund the money needed for a design patent
I would 100% back this.
@@Meanslicer43 I know I would
Wow, gotta be the icing on the cake that their ads came up in your yt feed. Good for you for sticking to your guns!
That initial email instantly destroys their side of the case... Bet you anything their lawyer was not happy to see that email, if they showed them it at all lol
They have literally admitted/lied enough on file at this point to completely botch any case they might have had
263 / 5000
I thought exactly the same. They probably consulted the attorney after replying to his email. The first thing he must have said to these thieves is: Why the hell did you send that admission of guilt? Now it is definitely a difficult case to defend !!
@@PabloHarguindey still, if this idea was thought up, patented, made into a product (the 1982 puzzle), then it's not really "his" when he came up with it again, even if independently is it?
@@randomnobody660 this is exactly what I'm confused about, he says repeatedly that he never made any patents to claim the design as his legally, so why is he complaining when someone makes a product out of it. I understand responding to the people contacting him about the similarities, but there's literally nothing he can do.
@@nfisher2926 Its not the mechanical design similarities he has issues with. It's that their puzzle looks almost identical, down to the colour of the balls. Its really easy for customers to get confused between the two, which is the issue.
Its not that they function the same, its that they also LOOK the same.
@@randomnobody660 the idea of the puzzle design is not his and thus he's not able to patent it. However he created the distinct form of his own puzzle to which he owns the intellectual property rights. For example if you come up with a great shape for a skateboard deck, you own the intellectual property for the deck shape whether you patented it or not. You can file a copyright claim if someone did copy your design even if skateboards in general existed before you creating your special skate deck