As someone who has counted and scored THOUSANDS of candidate pushups, my opinion is that the amount of variability between trainees even those who are well coached is bonkers. This comes down to so many factors such as range of motion of the shoulder, elbow and wrist, speed, breathing patterns, core strength, arm length, head position, center of mass, eccentric contraction, blood flow, ability to recover from the previous test, absolute strength, etc The nuance, subjectivity, level of leniency that takes place during a two minute period of attempted max reps of pushups (less so on sit-ups but still applies) is so complex it would make Einstein head spin and you could have ten top experts and still have a 5-10 difference in spread, it’s just the nature of the movement and parameters of the test. Pull-ups are pretty easy to score even and are way more accurate. I concur the amount of time wasted attempting to coach someone to a “perfect push-up” is not an efficient use of training time when most candidates have so many limiting factors, skills; and weak links to improve. Pushups are not their sport, thus we should not treat it like such.
I agree with you. The IFT should be exercises that cater more to what you’ll be actually doing in the specific career field. For instance, replace the pushups with deadlifts or have maybe a farmer carry exercise added in. However it maybe be tested whether it’s weight, reps, or time. Furthermore, maybe add in a sprint agility test.
I don’t know man. After a certain point adding too many events might have a negative outcome. I think the simpler the better. Give trainees a few events to focus on and train to, and hopefully exceed, and then add those events later.
Respectfully sit-ups are not an effective way to gauge your core strengths. I suggest a plank or possibly a static over hard press/hold or while walking.
That's nothing. I'm civilian and I can do that now at 37. I know active duty that cannot even do this because they are fat, overweight, and out of shape. Obviously they have a different MOS.
the keyword you dropped is BASELINE. Tracking and holding oneself accountable to progressive improvement on an initial, honest BASELINE is critical for long term growth. I agree, run time && pull up count seem to be the two most powerful 'bang for your buck' performance standards the AF could focus on.
Other than the swim requirement which assessed a demarcation between being a weak swimmer and a strong swimmer, the origins of the other requirements had two components. The first was a medical component to determine the individual had sufficiently recovered from injury or illness to be put back on mission ready duty status, the second is the tested events had to be easily observed as being completed to a standard as failure had many administrative consequences which must standup under scrutiny of a review board (student elimination from training, or disqualification and removal from AFSC) of being unbiased and also being a justifiable reasonable standard. As far as the initial standards implemented, they were essentially unchanged from those put in place during the Second World War at the Amphibious Warfare, Jungle Warfare, Mountain Warfare, airborne, and Ranger Training Courses. Post Second World War the standards were also similar to the U.S Army's NCO fitness test (existed only for a few years). Added: I forgot to mention Air Force policy guidance for several decades was the test had to conform to events, other than the swim event, eight-count body builders and flutter kicks, on the annual Air Force fitness test. Eight Count was justified as a necessary range of motion test and flutter kick justified due to the open water mission being accomplished (PJs were not jumping in with RAMZ, Zodiacs, or jet skis until the mid/late 1980s).
Why aren't all events structured to meet the specific physical tasks of the job? For example, weighted caving ladder and/or rope climbs vs pull-ups...same-ish muscles used, bust different "skills." My thinking is, "Cool dude, you can do 30 pull-ups or 5 with 90 lbs or some crap, but can you climb into the helo or up the cliff face" You could interpret those abilities as yes, of course they can, but why not just do it? Think of this like running, nobody cares if you heel strike or run on the balls of your feet if you run an 18 minute 3 mile. Only use pass/fail events that don't require a judge's critique on form; just a difficult weight and time standard. Rucks, kit runs/shuttle sprints, fin swims in uniform (possibly pushing ruck for CFT/OFT), rope and caving ladder climbs in kit, heavy farmers carry for speed and distance, sled drags.
We do all that- on the OFT/CFT. The question is, “There are still pushups and sit-ups on the IFT- why?” And what ‘pass fail objective events’ can you think of that would indicate someone is in good enough shape to try out for a Special Warfare Job?”
Some great points here, would be nice if this line of thinking gained more traction with the decision makers, the only change I’d make is that we should keep the pull-up count two reps above whatever Aaron can do at all times.
I'm just a dumb civilian, but I worked out with a few friends who went AFSOC and NSW and had it through thier pipelines. I am opened water swam with them with fins alot during my younger years. They just told me thier focusing on being able to do a minimum standard of 900 pull ups,900 push ups, 900 sit ups, be able to swim 8 miles, perform 80 laps in pool of side strokes and be able to run a half marathon and pushing it a ultra marathon. So it motivated me to strive for the same, cause I was young and full of c*m.
So who would be able to make these changes in the Airforce? AFSOC chain of command and down or would it be JSOC ? Director of Airforce? Trent I agree with you. I ruck, run and train currently right now to get into program for Airforce. Why I am seeing fat unfit guys that are not into fitness or have that operator drive that are in the military? I know for damn sure that the guys bigger than me are not going to gym or training in the elements on the frequent. If you give me the opportunity I will give you the guts. I actually went to Nellis AFB and met Peaches 2 months ago so I know and love what you guys do. I a DOD civilian currently and I see active duty fatter than me. Let's help make these changes. I will meet and exceed the standards and will make heads turn actually down range. You know in this area that the pipeline and selection is kindergarten and who actually has the drive and maturity, and discipline to do what it takes to get the job done.
Why is so much emphasis put on slick run times? If push-ups are not relative to job duties, why are run times with no weight on your back so important? If the job requires you carry a rifle, 50lb ruck, and possibly another human while on your feet, slick running doesn’t seem like the best showcase for the needed talents once you are in the field.
The OFT got rid of running for the reasons you mentioned- but those people are already in the job. The IFT evaluates civilian or entry level candidates- you want those folks rucking with weight or carrying people as an initial look at their general fitness?
I appreciate your response and am genuinely curious as I am on my journey into specwar to become PJ. I completed my way unto the IFT where I passed calisthenics but did not meet the times needed for the run and got sent home with little advice. My body at the time of my IFT was 6’3 around 230lb lean on strict diet. I came in strong with the ability to carry the weight lacking on slick run times, my mistake since I failed. Not meeting the run times made me change my approach to getting in. I got my body weight under 215 thinking it would make me run faster but my overall strength diminished as well as my ability to perform and recover on runs. Just made me easier to kill, so my weight is back up 230 and my running has greatly improved since that failed IFT. At this weight I perform and recover at what I need for optimal performance. Just seems that IFT run times cater to a smaller frame which seems not conducive to recruiting someone in the desired field I am after. I am giving it my everything to become what I need to be and will soon attempt IFT again. For I want to save people and protect. Thank you sir
We can talk about the events on the OFT, but those we can at least tie to the WISR for "job requirements". And like Trent is pointing out, we don't evaluate push ups or sit ups anywhere else. Even if those other events are "more ridiculous" than PU/SU, at least they're rooted to something. - A
lol I can go into the team room right now and not find a single person who has ever had to broad jump down range or run five yards one way, ten the other and then 5 back as fast as possible… this isn’t the NFL combine lol. But, this wouldn’t be the first time the military has done something that didn’t make sense… 🫠🫠🫠
lol there are guys on team that can get up off the couch after 6 months of doing nothing and pass an OFT. You could never get away with that on an AFSOC or PAST.
@@dasc507 So the question would be “What fitness test would you design that fits your own parameters?” You’ve never broad jumped, sprinted/changed direction ‘on deployment’ and those things are useless measures- so what’s a good one? What exercises accurately measure ‘ability to do the job’? Are push ups and sit ups valid? Ive never had to do 50 sit-ups real fast on a mission either.
Muscle ups
Clapping push-ups
Scadinavian tiger crawl for 1 mile
Wrestle a Rottweiler/Indoor Cat
As someone who has counted and scored THOUSANDS of candidate pushups, my opinion is that the amount of variability between trainees even those who are well coached is bonkers.
This comes down to so many factors such as range of motion of the shoulder, elbow and wrist, speed, breathing patterns, core strength, arm length, head position, center of mass, eccentric contraction, blood flow, ability to recover from the previous test, absolute strength, etc
The nuance, subjectivity, level of leniency that takes place during a two minute period of attempted max reps of pushups (less so on sit-ups but still applies) is so complex it would make Einstein head spin and you could have ten top experts and still have a 5-10 difference in spread, it’s just the nature of the movement and parameters of the test.
Pull-ups are pretty easy to score even and are way more accurate.
I concur the amount of time wasted attempting to coach someone to a “perfect push-up” is not an efficient use of training time when most candidates have so many limiting factors, skills; and weak links to improve.
Pushups are not their sport, thus we should not treat it like such.
I agree with you. The IFT should be exercises that cater more to what you’ll be actually doing in the specific career field. For instance, replace the pushups with deadlifts or have maybe a farmer carry exercise added in. However it maybe be tested whether it’s weight, reps, or time. Furthermore, maybe add in a sprint agility test.
I don’t know man. After a certain point adding too many events might have a negative outcome. I think the simpler the better. Give trainees a few events to focus on and train to, and hopefully exceed, and then add those events later.
Well said, Trent.
Baseline IFT should look more like:
10 pull-ups
50 Sit-ups @ 2min
1mi swim @ 40min (easy enough) + 3 x 25yd UWs
3mi run @ 22min
3mi 35lb ruck @ 54min
Respectfully sit-ups are not an effective way to gauge your core strengths. I suggest a plank or possibly a static over hard press/hold or while walking.
Excellent. Planks make sense.
Are you going to go into the pipeline soon? I see you all over youtube especially on afsw stuff
That's nothing. I'm civilian and I can do that now at 37. I know active duty that cannot even do this because they are fat, overweight, and out of shape. Obviously they have a different MOS.
I agree this seems challenging
the keyword you dropped is BASELINE. Tracking and holding oneself accountable to progressive improvement on an initial, honest BASELINE is critical for long term growth. I agree, run time && pull up count seem to be the two most powerful 'bang for your buck' performance standards the AF could focus on.
The RegAF PFA could use some work too. Knock out a couple push-ups, sit-ups and a brisk jog and you're somehow fit to fight based on that?
Make those changes happen!
Agreed. Well said!
Other than the swim requirement which assessed a demarcation between being a weak swimmer and a strong swimmer, the origins of the other requirements had two components. The first was a medical component to determine the individual had sufficiently recovered from injury or illness to be put back on mission ready duty status, the second is the tested events had to be easily observed as being completed to a standard as failure had many administrative consequences which must standup under scrutiny of a review board (student elimination from training, or disqualification and removal from AFSC) of being unbiased and also being a justifiable reasonable standard.
As far as the initial standards implemented, they were essentially unchanged from those put in place during the Second World War at the Amphibious Warfare, Jungle Warfare, Mountain Warfare, airborne, and Ranger Training Courses. Post Second World War the standards were also similar to the U.S Army's NCO fitness test (existed only for a few years).
Added: I forgot to mention Air Force policy guidance for several decades was the test had to conform to events, other than the swim event, eight-count body builders and flutter kicks, on the annual Air Force fitness test. Eight Count was justified as a necessary range of motion test and flutter kick justified due to the open water mission being accomplished (PJs were not jumping in with RAMZ, Zodiacs, or jet skis until the mid/late 1980s).
Agree 100%
By the same logic, take out swimming all together
Why aren't all events structured to meet the specific physical tasks of the job? For example, weighted caving ladder and/or rope climbs vs pull-ups...same-ish muscles used, bust different "skills." My thinking is, "Cool dude, you can do 30 pull-ups or 5 with 90 lbs or some crap, but can you climb into the helo or up the cliff face" You could interpret those abilities as yes, of course they can, but why not just do it? Think of this like running, nobody cares if you heel strike or run on the balls of your feet if you run an 18 minute 3 mile. Only use pass/fail events that don't require a judge's critique on form; just a difficult weight and time standard.
Rucks, kit runs/shuttle sprints, fin swims in uniform (possibly pushing ruck for CFT/OFT), rope and caving ladder climbs in kit, heavy farmers carry for speed and distance, sled drags.
We do all that- on the OFT/CFT. The question is, “There are still pushups and sit-ups on the IFT- why?” And what ‘pass fail objective events’ can you think of that would indicate someone is in good enough shape to try out for a Special Warfare Job?”
It’s harder to train for specifically. A lot of people doing the IFT were civilians months before. Keeping the workouts simple makes sense.
Why does it say, "If you're reading this it's too late"?
anyone mind posting a link to the discord i lost my account and cant find where i found it before
discord.gg/fMjgbdKA
Push Ups 2 MINUTE AMRAP
Pull Ups 2 MINUTE AMRAP
Box Jumps 2 MINUTE AMRAP
3 Mile Run
1500m Swim
3 Mile 45lb Ruck
👆 This would be perfect for AFSPECWAR
Why box jumps?
Some great points here, would be nice if this line of thinking gained more traction with the decision makers, the only change I’d make is that we should keep the pull-up count two reps above whatever Aaron can do at all times.
Nah, MORE pullups!
My vote is for 12 pull-ups as the entrance standard. -T
That DEI sweet baby money.
I'm just a dumb civilian, but I worked out with a few friends who went AFSOC and NSW and had it through thier pipelines. I am opened water swam with them with fins alot during my younger years. They just told me thier focusing on being able to do a minimum standard of 900 pull ups,900 push ups, 900 sit ups, be able to swim 8 miles, perform 80 laps in pool of side strokes and be able to run a half marathon and pushing it a ultra marathon. So it motivated me to strive for the same, cause I was young and full of c*m.
Me watching this after killing myself for months tryna get 85+ perfect push ups 🗿
Well did ya get em? Lol.
So who would be able to make these changes in the Airforce? AFSOC chain of command and down or would it be JSOC ? Director of Airforce? Trent I agree with you. I ruck, run and train currently right now to get into program for Airforce. Why I am seeing fat unfit guys that are not into fitness or have that operator drive that are in the military? I know for damn sure that the guys bigger than me are not going to gym or training in the elements on the frequent. If you give me the opportunity I will give you the guts. I actually went to Nellis AFB and met Peaches 2 months ago so I know and love what you guys do. I a DOD civilian currently and I see active duty fatter than me. Let's help make these changes. I will meet and exceed the standards and will make heads turn actually down range. You know in this area that the pipeline and selection is kindergarten and who actually has the drive and maturity, and discipline to do what it takes to get the job done.
Why is so much emphasis put on slick run times? If push-ups are not relative to job duties, why are run times with no weight on your back so important? If the job requires you carry a rifle, 50lb ruck, and possibly another human while on your feet, slick running doesn’t seem like the best showcase for the needed talents once you are in the field.
The OFT got rid of running for the reasons you mentioned- but those people are already in the job. The IFT evaluates civilian or entry level candidates- you want those folks rucking with weight or carrying people as an initial look at their general fitness?
I appreciate your response and am genuinely curious as I am on my journey into specwar to become PJ. I completed my way unto the IFT where I passed calisthenics but did not meet the times needed for the run and got sent home with little advice. My body at the time of my IFT was 6’3 around 230lb lean on strict diet. I came in strong with the ability to carry the weight lacking on slick run times, my mistake since I failed. Not meeting the run times made me change my approach to getting in. I got my body weight under 215 thinking it would make me run faster but my overall strength diminished as well as my ability to perform and recover on runs. Just made me easier to kill, so my weight is back up 230 and my running has greatly improved since that failed IFT. At this weight I perform and recover at what I need for optimal performance. Just seems that IFT run times cater to a smaller frame which seems not conducive to recruiting someone in the desired field I am after. I am giving it my everything to become what I need to be and will soon attempt IFT again. For I want to save people and protect. Thank you sir
Why are we doing broad jumps and pro agility? Far more ridiculous than push ups and sit-ups.
We can talk about the events on the OFT, but those we can at least tie to the WISR for "job requirements". And like Trent is pointing out, we don't evaluate push ups or sit ups anywhere else. Even if those other events are "more ridiculous" than PU/SU, at least they're rooted to something. - A
lol I can go into the team room right now and not find a single person who has ever had to broad jump down range or run five yards one way, ten the other and then 5 back as fast as possible… this isn’t the NFL combine lol. But, this wouldn’t be the first time the military has done something that didn’t make sense… 🫠🫠🫠
Aarons just defending the broad jump so he can pretend he’s in the NFL
lol there are guys on team that can get up off the couch after 6 months of doing nothing and pass an OFT. You could never get away with that on an AFSOC or PAST.
@@dasc507 So the question would be “What fitness test would you design that fits your own parameters?” You’ve never broad jumped, sprinted/changed direction ‘on deployment’ and those things are useless measures- so what’s a good one? What exercises accurately measure ‘ability to do the job’? Are push ups and sit ups valid? Ive never had to do 50 sit-ups real fast on a mission either.