I'm an artist. Intuitive revulsion is NOT objective. The revulsion the scholars felt in the example in the beginning is because they have spent years looking at art frommthat period/region and the statue does not fit what they're used to seeing. Most people cannot tell something is AI at a glance, and everyone is hypervigilant about it because of how quickly companies have been to adopt the tech. There's a difference in art between something being correct and something LOOKING correct. The Urza's Cave you showed doesn't look like AI, it looks like concept art. It's rough in most places and it's detailed where the eye is supposed to be drawn, but it's not very refined all over. The anime version of that wizard is not mirrored. At a glance you can see plenty of differences going from one side to another just like the original. The pose is very similar, but I'm sure the artist just wanted to pay homage to the original, and the composition couldn't really be changed much without sacrificing the original 'vibe' that he's going for, with the imperfect mirror. The art from Duskmourn doesn't look like AI to me. The demon with the 6 horns and 6 eyes looks like it might have been a mixture of photobashing and digital painting. It doesn't have any signs of AI hallucinations to me. The screaming nemesis DOES have a face; it's right in the middle, you can make out eyes, a nose, and a mouth. Valgavoth has visible paint strokes, and shows signs of an artist's hands, and frankly I find all of the images of him that you found uninspired and unevocative to be quite the opposite. The one of Valgavoth with the golden strands brings to mind his intentions to consume and destroy every world he can get his hands on, the strands are his influence, the baubles are worlds, and the thing in the middle is either the world he's consuming or marina vandrell wrapped in a coccoon of his dubious protection. I don't think Magic is using AI. I think their brand is closely tied to hiring artists and that using AI in any broad way would damage it. That said I think it's much more likely that they'll start slipping AI into things like dungeons and dragons where the artists aren't as front and center.
Thank you for taking the time to review the examples and points I raise in my video. I did hope for this kind of discourse when making the video, and I appreciate you bringing your expertise and thoughts to the discussion. Whilst we don't agree, I can see where you're coming from with your observations. I would ask, what are your opinions of the alternate art for Screaming Nemesis in its showcase frame, and the art on the Duskmourn Archenemy card "I am never alone." Thank you.
Mtg art has sucked lately. That is common knowledge. Instead of gaslighting people that think mtg art sucks just stop being lazy. Geeeze. People are allowed to have opinions your not jesus
Do you have any actual concrete or substantive reasons for thinking these art pieces are AI beyond just saying "idk kind of sus"? At the end of the day this is an extreme accusation to make against artists (some of whom have been very strictly ANTI AI art) and personally, if I was a magic content creator, I would be annoyed seeing my footage used in a video that is borderline slander against card art artists. I feel like no matter how bad the game gets, the artists were always considered off limits for attacking... but I guess anything is fair game when you're trying to make a career out of talking about magic dying.
Thank you for taking the time to comment my friend. Ah, this is the more extreme end of critique I expected this video to generate, so I take no offence. No, I don't have "evidence" past the actual art printed on the cards. And yes, this topic IS very damaging to artists if used in a heavy handed way. I say as much in the video when pointing out the false positives that can be found when looking at art we simply dislike on an individual level. But this is a discussion that was bound to come up sooner or later. Because AI Generated art is here now, and we have to be vigilant to when it appears, if and how it appears, on magic the gathering cards in the future. We may disagree, but I thank you for taking the time to voice your concerns.
hi, i'm coming from red bobcat :3 it's been two years since the creation of generative ai and as a generic statement of where i am with it, i'm deeply sad that it can be used by the public so easily and so fast. this revulsion is cool to me because it doesn't matter how good a generative ai model can be trained and improve, i still have that revulsion. just to add something to the video that isn't just "yeaah, i'm with you!" is that in a section of the video you showed custom card designs with ai arts, i noticed this is common in the custom card community when somene wants to just have the vibe of the card printed with not just words but also colors and lines. obviously faster than finding the right piece (or from the right piece then create a card design on top of it) and so everyone in the community nods and moves on
So this vid pops up on my timeline. It's a topic I care about so decided to check it out. Haven't finished yet, and would normally wait till the end to comment but I had to stop when I saw myself! Was not expecting that! Good video though, am enjoying it so far. I hope we find out at the end whether that statue is real or not
@@jhminiatures7867 You too, I did finish it and I'm glad we heard the end of the statue story. So I'll say again, good video, and thank you for the watch!
I haven't played for years now. MTG is a product now, more than anything else. I'm waiting to see if fans make their own Magic, just as we did with D&D.
This might be an important conversation to have one day and maybe even today but this guy mumbling without a script and putting up random pieces of art (often by incredibly reputable fantasy artists) and giving no structured analysis beyond saying "this one looks weird to me" is definitely going to put the conversation backward instead of forward I don't think you got anything useful for anybody completed by doing this and the art community is really lucky that you have almost no viewership because I'm halfway through and all you've done is try to brigade on almost a dozen incredibly well respected industry talents while admitting constantly you have no idea what you're even saying
@jhminiatures7867 I just don't think you can claim you're doing anything respectfully if you're going to make career damaging accusations of artists without even Googling their back catalogue or learning how to pronounce their names
You misunderstand, I respectfully disagree with the points you raise in your comment. I constructed the video as an amateur to the best of my ability. I have shone a light on a subject that up until now has not been spoken about in this way. I have used examples that have stood out to me, and given credit where it's due. I even cover the concept of the damage that this line of inquiry can lead to individual artists, if used too heavily. But like others have pointed out, the video is not without its own flaws. I am happy to hear further critique, but this conversation, whether now or in a years time, will happen. To paraphrase another commentator here; "with Generative AI art the Genie is already out of the bottle, and we cannot put it back in."
I think the thing that actually matters isn't how the artist created the piece, but the end result. The "wholeness" of the artpiece, from it's imperfections, to it's perfections. It's wayward strokes. It's lighting, everything when crafted by a human with enough talent *looks* correct, even if it technically isn't. The problem isn't Artists tracing art. It isn't them mashing together elements and using AI tools to blend things together. Hell it isn't even ground up generative creation and tweaking. It's the complete lack of quality control, artistic vision, and the ability to stare at your own, shitty anime remake of a master-painted oilwork and saying: "This could have been made by AI." For me, my absolute favorite card art in MTG is Soulherder. It's strikingly gorgeous, creative, and almost unnerving. It's my desktop background. I know everything there is to know about the card. That card would mean almost nothing to me if it was in a generic anime style. And the reason is Magic is *unique.* It's art has always been evocative, transcendent almost. It's weird, it's wild, it's whacky, it's unbelievably beautiful. As that starts to slip, as more of these zero effort cards come out without clear artistic vision beyond "Make X guy but he's anime", the more that legacy and vibe breaks down. Have you seen Loot, exuberant explorer? Even if that was painted, it's the first card that made me practically recoil with "Wow that's literally just ai slop on a card." Even if it ISN'T, the bite of magic's art is fading, and I think everyone is starting to notice it. Good video. TLDR: Read if you wanna know xd
I care about the vanillas. I think vanilla creatures don't get enough love :( so I built a vanilla Commander Deck to give them some time in the sunlight
I know the artist for all of my favorite cards, Yoked Ox was painted by Ryan Yee who also did BFZ expedition fetches. And obviously RKF art is super distinguishable.
Great inclusion of The Red Bobcat's video. It really drives home how many sets are jammed into Standard alone. In a world where Hatsune Miku's accepted as an "artist" by many fans, let alone machine generated art, things are slipping further down the slope. Hearing the Magic Historian's clip about artists getting slammed with deadlines for 5 pieces in a time where they can reasonably compete 2 means that higher ups are turning the screws on creative folks more and more which is disheartening. The art, made by artists, it what first attracted me to the game.
Indeed, and ultimately the amount of acceleration the game will see over the coming years. The reality is that while we as the general public only ever see sets as they are released and previewed (even with wizard's "and here's the next year's worth of planned sets.) Corporate know what the next 3-5 year's hold, even if they are just vague ideas and IP tie-ins they want to manufacture. I feel this is personified with the marvel sets now coming out. Yes, 4 year's ago when people were going coo-coo-ka-ka for cocopuffs over End Game and Infinity war, it probably made sense to start working on marvel tie-ins. Phase 4 was probably forecast to be a success, considering how staggeringly well the first 3 phases had gone. But here we are, all this time and art commissioned later. They aren't Not going to use it after they spent money on it.
Miku(and that applies to all virtual singers) is not an artist herself, but comparing her to AI is genuinely bad faith? Yes, she is not a human singer, she is quite literally a musical instrument of her own kind that can do vocals. Both the words she things and the ways she sings them, the music of the songs are the work of many real people who put their heart and soul into it and comparing it to soulless ai generation is insulting.
That is a good point, I hadn’t considered that but you’ve changed my mind; her being a musical instrument does make sense. If that part is done a fair amount by humans, then there is definitely a craft to that.
Honestly I love the duskmourn set so much. Looking at each card I haven't seen one that gives me the AI ick. In fact I was worried after Ixelan, Thunder Junction, modern horizon 3, and Bloomburrow. So many cards from those sets made me believe they might have used AI art. I hope they never use ai art as official art.
@jhminiatures7867 Ojer Axonil, Inti, Ojer Kaslem, Ornery Tumblewagg, Tomb Trawler, tumbleweed Rising, Alania's Pathmaker, Wick's Patrol, Lumra, are the ones that strike me the most. Specially Wick's Patrol when I played at the pre-release, I couldn't stop staring trying to figure out the details because it has that messy design feel that Ai has at times. Truthfully I don't believe any of these cards used ai, but looking that them just makes me paranoid.
I don't think any of the artwork is AI generated, it's only send to be because it looks so soulless. Which is the lowest way an artist can be humiliated. If they don't seem to care about their art, why should you?
I don't think it's a case where the artists don't care, I think it's more the pressures they are under to churn out more art, quicker, and to the same standard. If you can paint a masterpiece in a week (as an example), and then all of a sudden you're expected to paint 5, to the same quality in the same time frame or lose a contract and paid work, you'd look for alternative tools wouldn't you? And, of course, I care because it's a game I enjoy and wish to see return to the quality and standards I used to experience in the game, 5 years ago if that.
AI could probably design better Phyrexian art than WOTC with how they treated _mi familia_ in recent expacs... I still legitimately dont understand why people are so upset. A person views a piece of art, they add it to their pleasant memories, they want to draw and some creatd art which stylistically is based off of these memories. AI has art input [sees art], added to a recognizable database [memorizes art], receives input [human wants to draw], produces art [based on input & memory]. These are literally the same thing. If people feel like they're going to be replaced by AI maybe they should capitalize on styles or artwork that is too detailed, complex, or fascinating that AI can't copy. Otherwise, maybe there will be jobs to supply AI with art samples. No, this is legitimately how my mind functions; I can hear presumptive bias before it happens.
I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment friend. As a subject this video has been one of the most engaging for different views and opinions. Whilst I don't agree with where you're coming from, I can see how you made those connections. Like anything, AI and AI Generative art are incredibly divisive subjects. But it is here to stay now, and we can't pretend that it won't effect the creative development of the media we enjoy.
Immediate subscription. Brilliant video. I had the same reaction to Urza's Cave in particular. At *best*, you're wrong about the examples you cited and they're just uninteresting or uninspired pieces, likely pressed out of overworked artists. At worst, the problem is already deeper than you've explained here...
Honestly, thank you for taking the time to watch the video. After possibly one of the worst video launches I've had, the discussions in the comment section have been some of the best. Thank you my friend, and im glad you enjoyed the video.
God this video was depressing, and I mean that as a compliment to how effectively you made your point. I dont necessarily agree with *every* example being AI, but enough of them give me that Ick you so eloquently describe, and now I'm scrolling through Foundations art and my heart is just sinking. Why do two of Sire of Seven Death's hands have one fewer fingers than the others? Why does the way the humans on Dauntless Veterans stick out in the foreground feel so unnatural?? Why is there SO MUCH symmetry in backgrounds, and why do background details so frequently blur into unnatural abstraction, like on Banner of Kinship??? I'm not decrying any of these examples as Definitely AI, but the fact that we're at a point where it is ALWAYS a possibility, and always something I'm at least aware of, is depressing
Thank you, I take that as the compliment it was intended as. It is hard, because ultimately it will become very easy, very quickly, to hand wave away Any art you dislike as AI Generated, or rather, AI Manipulated. Ah, I suppose in a way that's a video topic in its own right. But regardless, it is easy to find false positives even with newer art. But as I've commented to others and point out in the video, this is the first to my knowledge that questions specific cards as to their, authenticity, for lack of an appropriate word. I'm sure, as harrowing as it may be, there will be more to come. More comparisons and analysis and critique. But this, with the dawn of AI Generated, is now inevitable. Again, thank you for taking the time to watch my video and comment. I am enjoying the discourse this has crested, as this conversation was what I wanted when I pieced this together. Thank you friend.
Also, I see you create music on UA-cam. Apologies for being blunt, as there's no messages function on UA-cam, but would you object if I used your music as background in my future videos? Thank you.
What? No. Doomsday Excruciator is a fine design. It simply used photobashing and less traditional techniques. Zero chance that an AI could be so deliberate in the placement of all the elements in play without making a complete mess of it. Liiga from the Screaming Nemesis art simply has a very unusual style. Look at all his other art. They all lean towards the abstract but were competently done. I for one love that card in particular for how well its colors pop in the frame, and how ethereal it seems. In general, I think your examples seem... unfortunate... they include some of the most competent and unique art in the set. There is more likely examples in say, the new foundation lands, and even those I would doubt to be AI. "Intuitive Revulsion" is a dangerous concept, I believe. The average person is really, really bad at identifying AI art. Ask your grandmother to differentiate AI from real digital art, I doubt she'll do that well. You have been looking at digital artworks longer than the average person, you may not produce it, but you have a grasp of what things are supposed to look like, generally. You probably do have this vague sense of being able to tell the small differences, and that's great. Do you think the next generation will still be able to do that? They haven't had decades on the internet to build so specific a visual library. I genuinely believe we need to stop looking at detail and composition in art for its own merit. It will lead to false positives all the time. These are the things that are childs play for AI. It should be all about deliberate intention, composition, symbolism, and construction. If that is what audiences promote, then that is what good artists will attempt to create. Of course, that probably won't happen for general audiences, and that is okay.
Thank you for taking the time to comment on my video. While we both disagree on the subject, I think there are some very valid points and concerns you've raised. I think the comparison with an elderly relative is quite bad-faith, as for the life of me I don't think a grandparent is the kind of person Wizard's or indeed any AI artist targets with their work. But the next generation, yes I see the worry there. The proliferation of Ai generated art will as you point out taint the waters, so to speak. I agree on the shout with basic / full art lands. A lot of the recent full art lands, Duskmourn and New Capenna specifically, have strong Ai Generated energy even if they were deliberately painted. As I point out in the video, lands are likely for Wizard's to target with Ai art, after all who cares about lands. But this is a start. No one is scrutinising magic art like this, not from what I've seen. For copied / stolen art certainly, and for over all quality, but for use of AI Art? No, this I believe is the first, and as such is flawed. But this, sadly, won't be the last. But probably not from this channel. Thank you again.
This is the perfect example of the bigger problems with this admittedly early generation of AI art - it imposes invisible limitations on artists as they dont want the subjective or surreal elements of their work to be cited as AI hallmarks. Not to be apocalyptic but i can only imagine AI art generation improves leaps and bounds in the next 5-10 years
And I suppose to cast our minds further, what will the "counter culture" art look like in 5-10 years to challenge this? Already we're seeing artists use watermarks as a way to trap the AI gens, which can't differentiate when scouring material.
A couple criticisms (constructive) to levy here: 1. AI is definitely a possibility in every piece you've mentioned, but your intuitive revulsion is not a sure-fire way to pick out the pieces. Maybe the art has dropped in quality, but you said yourself: we shouldn't call art we don't like AI. 2. It's worth it to research name pronunciation. Each name in this video has a language of origin, and should be easy enough to find guides online for. That said, you bring up a legitimate concern. AI is in a nebulous space where we can't know for sure whether it's being used or not. It's out there, and it cannot be put back into its bottle. This video is great for discussion on that front.
Thank you, I appreciate the feedback. I am certain, with time and further scrutiny, others will develop the tools or more accurate tests to identify AI Generated art either in part or fully on magic the gathering cards. This video is, and I will continue to point this out until I am corrected, to the best of my knowledge the first to actually question specific magic cards and their authenticity. Which in turn has now sparked conversation on the subject. It was, I feel, inevitable, and it pleases me to no end to see a broad canvas of responses, feedback and input from individuals. Again, thank you for taking the time to watch my video.
I've gone through about 15 different visual AIs and none of them are creative. After some time you can pretty easily see repetition of 'core approaches' - like for example each AI is hard locking into same compositions (based on datasets) that cannot be broken free of. All AIs cause terrible frustration in hands of a professional because there's like no true versatility at all. Take a look at how AI destroyed the uniqueness (visual language) of eldrazi - the AI just doesn't have any understanding in unique things and if you look at the details it's all trash - there' s not really true interest/structure/depth. What you get are just boring averages without anything special. Sure the lighting is good and faces can be good too if you're after something non-special, but that's all AI has to offer today. Well, Magic is done anyways due to Universes Beyond and all the product overflow in general - all that's left is just a hollow money making framework.
The great irony will always be if you rewind back 6-7 years ago, the thought of an IP crossover in Magic was a joke at best. We would have Maybe a "my little pony" event exclusive, or transformers cards, but they were Always silver bordered.
Maybe its the artist in me, or just the science and history nerd... but the biggest nonsense in this video is that whosoever wanted to charge for their finding of the kouros, or any ancient artifact. Like, you didn't knowingly spend your money to purchase it, you just "found" it... give it to the museum. If they have to damage your property or something to retrieve it sure you should be reimbursed, but other than that I would expect nothing more than like a placard saying you donated or found it beside it's display. -.- So Monumental Facade (fa'sod is correct French, not fuckaid xD) and Urza's Cave are actually painted, they are done in a more hasty concept-art style. Bruce Brenneise actually sells many of his preliminary drawings. He then usually does acrylics for about 80-90% of the painting then finishes them in digital. Mark Poole is extremely talented with oils, acrylics, and digital... I highly doubt he would ever waste his time with Ai. The Doomsday Excruciator looks like a mixmedia, likely using a combination of digital and Blender 3D software, the background looks like it could be rendered in Unreal Engine. Both Naban are indeed made with the symmetry-tool in most digital programs, after using it you go back over your piece tweaking things to make it seem less symmetrical. One thing that can often feel uncanny and goes really far back in Magic art is photobashing, especially for architecture. You chop up photos to build structure then paintover it. Forest 303 from Ravnica City of Guilds is an extremely obvious example. Digital is usually what feels off in my opinion, especially 3D tools like Blender, most of Magic was done traditionally for a long time and I strongly prefer traditional mediums... but digital goes go all the way back to Circle of Protection Black in Limited Edition Beta! There's even weirder mediums too like in Urza's Saga, Higgenbotham didn't paint, his famous Worn Powerstone and Voltaic Key are photos of physical sculptures. My favorite artist in Magic is Wayne Reynolds who as far as I know never uses digital anything, just draws then paints acrylics. They recently got Justin Gerard onboard who is another favorite artist he usually draws then paints with oil, sometimes touching up with digital. Jesper Ejsing, Rebecca Guay, Raymond Swanland, Magali Villeneuve, Donato Giancola, Mark Poole, John Avon, Wylie Beckert... there's so many insanely talented artists in modern Magic.
Thank you for your input. It's always good to hear different takes on a video subject. I would ask, for clarity, which forest art are you referring to in Ravnica City of Guilds. 303 brings up...a lot of art surprisingly. Can you specify the artist so I can find it easier? Thank you. Again, thank you for taking the time to watch my video. I appreciate the positive discourse this subject has created.
@@jhminiatures7867 Stephan Martiniere, looking at his Magic gallery looks like he uses photobashing for everything. But the Forest is the only one I could remember off the top of my head.
@@alexanderthurber4257 Can you not read at all? xD lmfao I was saying it sucks that someone would charge a museum for what might be a historic artifact... literally nothing about art being bad. Was unaware that humans couldn't be royalty either. :') But I am technically royalty lol Must be that "ego" that makes someone talk about how great modern Magic artists are in two paragraphs.
It's a funny one, because again it's difficult to not look at cards that we can inherently dislike the art for and say "oh, an ai did this." But that doesn't explain why we have an inherent Feeling that something isn't quite right. And these are only a handful of examples. Magic is producing Thousands of cards a year now (factoring in all their products, secret lairs and so on), so it's inevitable that atleast Some of them will feature AI in some capacity.
I doubt that one is AI. I've seen hundreds of pieces like that before Image Gen was a thing. It's simply heavy use of photobashing and maybe some 3D. But the easiest way is to check is to look at Denys Tsiperkos portfolio, as you always should when debating this kind of thing, and yup, he is simply very good at doing that kind of thing. Lots of 3D models wiht some overpainting. Glad to clear that up. Would a guy with that kind of portfolio bother with AI? He's got an amazing workflow already completely sorted out.
Thank you for your input. Whilst I disagree on your points, I'll happily admit that I haven't reviewed the artist's catalogues of works. I am glad to hear their work doesn't lean towards or rely on AI Generated pieces. However, I would pose a counter point; When we play with magic cards, we don't have a catalogue of an artist's work to hand. We have the one art in front of us. We have to base our feelings on an individual's contribution to that one card. That's part of what makes this situation all the more muddied. We can't give people the benefit of the doubt, if the only thing we know about them in that moment is "this card art feels wrong to me." There is another video idea there however, of going through individual artist's portfolios of work and analysing them. But I'll leave that to more talented and knowledgeable individuals who are better equipped to do this.
I'm an artist. Intuitive revulsion is NOT objective. The revulsion the scholars felt in the example in the beginning is because they have spent years looking at art frommthat period/region and the statue does not fit what they're used to seeing.
Most people cannot tell something is AI at a glance, and everyone is hypervigilant about it because of how quickly companies have been to adopt the tech.
There's a difference in art between something being correct and something LOOKING correct. The Urza's Cave you showed doesn't look like AI, it looks like concept art. It's rough in most places and it's detailed where the eye is supposed to be drawn, but it's not very refined all over.
The anime version of that wizard is not mirrored. At a glance you can see plenty of differences going from one side to another just like the original. The pose is very similar, but I'm sure the artist just wanted to pay homage to the original, and the composition couldn't really be changed much without sacrificing the original 'vibe' that he's going for, with the imperfect mirror.
The art from Duskmourn doesn't look like AI to me. The demon with the 6 horns and 6 eyes looks like it might have been a mixture of photobashing and digital painting. It doesn't have any signs of AI hallucinations to me. The screaming nemesis DOES have a face; it's right in the middle, you can make out eyes, a nose, and a mouth. Valgavoth has visible paint strokes, and shows signs of an artist's hands, and frankly I find all of the images of him that you found uninspired and unevocative to be quite the opposite.
The one of Valgavoth with the golden strands brings to mind his intentions to consume and destroy every world he can get his hands on, the strands are his influence, the baubles are worlds, and the thing in the middle is either the world he's consuming or marina vandrell wrapped in a coccoon of his dubious protection.
I don't think Magic is using AI. I think their brand is closely tied to hiring artists and that using AI in any broad way would damage it. That said I think it's much more likely that they'll start slipping AI into things like dungeons and dragons where the artists aren't as front and center.
Thank you for taking the time to review the examples and points I raise in my video. I did hope for this kind of discourse when making the video, and I appreciate you bringing your expertise and thoughts to the discussion. Whilst we don't agree, I can see where you're coming from with your observations.
I would ask, what are your opinions of the alternate art for Screaming Nemesis in its showcase frame, and the art on the Duskmourn Archenemy card "I am never alone." Thank you.
Yeah i don't feel any revulsion when making or observing AI art.
I still don't understand the rejection.
Mtg art has sucked lately. That is common knowledge. Instead of gaslighting people that think mtg art sucks just stop being lazy. Geeeze. People are allowed to have opinions your not jesus
Do you have any actual concrete or substantive reasons for thinking these art pieces are AI beyond just saying "idk kind of sus"? At the end of the day this is an extreme accusation to make against artists (some of whom have been very strictly ANTI AI art) and personally, if I was a magic content creator, I would be annoyed seeing my footage used in a video that is borderline slander against card art artists. I feel like no matter how bad the game gets, the artists were always considered off limits for attacking... but I guess anything is fair game when you're trying to make a career out of talking about magic dying.
Thank you for taking the time to comment my friend. Ah, this is the more extreme end of critique I expected this video to generate, so I take no offence. No, I don't have "evidence" past the actual art printed on the cards. And yes, this topic IS very damaging to artists if used in a heavy handed way. I say as much in the video when pointing out the false positives that can be found when looking at art we simply dislike on an individual level.
But this is a discussion that was bound to come up sooner or later. Because AI Generated art is here now, and we have to be vigilant to when it appears, if and how it appears, on magic the gathering cards in the future.
We may disagree, but I thank you for taking the time to voice your concerns.
Watch the video. The whole point is that it can be difficult to spot AI with certainty, and that's part of the danger of it.
Its lazy art, fake or not.
hi, i'm coming from red bobcat :3
it's been two years since the creation of generative ai and as a generic statement of where i am with it, i'm deeply sad that it can be used by the public so easily and so fast. this revulsion is cool to me because it doesn't matter how good a generative ai model can be trained and improve, i still have that revulsion.
just to add something to the video that isn't just "yeaah, i'm with you!" is that in a section of the video you showed custom card designs with ai arts, i noticed this is common in the custom card community when somene wants to just have the vibe of the card printed with not just words but also colors and lines. obviously faster than finding the right piece (or from the right piece then create a card design on top of it) and so everyone in the community nods and moves on
So this vid pops up on my timeline. It's a topic I care about so decided to check it out. Haven't finished yet, and would normally wait till the end to comment but I had to stop when I saw myself! Was not expecting that! Good video though, am enjoying it so far. I hope we find out at the end whether that statue is real or not
Haha happy to hear it! You should be pleased you come up a second time too 😉 thank you again for the work you put into your videos my friend.
@@jhminiatures7867 You too, I did finish it and I'm glad we heard the end of the statue story. So I'll say again, good video, and thank you for the watch!
I haven't played for years now. MTG is a product now, more than anything else.
I'm waiting to see if fans make their own Magic, just as we did with D&D.
This might be an important conversation to have one day and maybe even today but this guy mumbling without a script and putting up random pieces of art (often by incredibly reputable fantasy artists) and giving no structured analysis beyond saying "this one looks weird to me" is definitely going to put the conversation backward instead of forward
I don't think you got anything useful for anybody completed by doing this and the art community is really lucky that you have almost no viewership because I'm halfway through and all you've done is try to brigade on almost a dozen incredibly well respected industry talents while admitting constantly you have no idea what you're even saying
Thank you for taking the time to comment on my video. While your views are quite...strong, on the subject, I respectfully disagree with you.
@jhminiatures7867 I just don't think you can claim you're doing anything respectfully if you're going to make career damaging accusations of artists without even Googling their back catalogue or learning how to pronounce their names
You misunderstand, I respectfully disagree with the points you raise in your comment.
I constructed the video as an amateur to the best of my ability. I have shone a light on a subject that up until now has not been spoken about in this way. I have used examples that have stood out to me, and given credit where it's due. I even cover the concept of the damage that this line of inquiry can lead to individual artists, if used too heavily. But like others have pointed out, the video is not without its own flaws.
I am happy to hear further critique, but this conversation, whether now or in a years time, will happen. To paraphrase another commentator here; "with Generative AI art the Genie is already out of the bottle, and we cannot put it back in."
Why so intense? People arent allowed to think art sucks? It is common knowledge todays mtg art is lazy
I think the thing that actually matters isn't how the artist created the piece, but the end result. The "wholeness" of the artpiece, from it's imperfections, to it's perfections. It's wayward strokes. It's lighting, everything when crafted by a human with enough talent *looks* correct, even if it technically isn't. The problem isn't Artists tracing art. It isn't them mashing together elements and using AI tools to blend things together. Hell it isn't even ground up generative creation and tweaking. It's the complete lack of quality control, artistic vision, and the ability to stare at your own, shitty anime remake of a master-painted oilwork and saying: "This could have been made by AI."
For me, my absolute favorite card art in MTG is Soulherder. It's strikingly gorgeous, creative, and almost unnerving. It's my desktop background. I know everything there is to know about the card. That card would mean almost nothing to me if it was in a generic anime style. And the reason is Magic is *unique.* It's art has always been evocative, transcendent almost. It's weird, it's wild, it's whacky, it's unbelievably beautiful. As that starts to slip, as more of these zero effort cards come out without clear artistic vision beyond "Make X guy but he's anime", the more that legacy and vibe breaks down. Have you seen Loot, exuberant explorer? Even if that was painted, it's the first card that made me practically recoil with "Wow that's literally just ai slop on a card." Even if it ISN'T, the bite of magic's art is fading, and I think everyone is starting to notice it. Good video.
TLDR: Read if you wanna know xd
Thank you for taking the time to comment and point out some solid examples my friend. It is appreciated and yes, we are a like mind it seems 😉
Ai "art" is such an affront to the soul, what it means to be human.
I am reminded of something my friend said, although I can't remember where he saw it;
"I know that the human soul exists, because AI art has no soul."
Do humans have souls either?
@VultureXV Reread the comment.
@@clinch4402
"AI "art" is such an affront to the soul, what it means to be human."
?
@@VultureXV Correct!
I care about the vanillas. I think vanilla creatures don't get enough love :( so I built a vanilla Commander Deck to give them some time in the sunlight
It's nice because there are commanders now that care about vanilla 2/2s and so on.
I know the artist for all of my favorite cards, Yoked Ox was painted by Ryan Yee who also did BFZ expedition fetches. And obviously RKF art is super distinguishable.
Based Ox enjoyer 🐂
Great inclusion of The Red Bobcat's video. It really drives home how many sets are jammed into Standard alone. In a world where Hatsune Miku's accepted as an "artist" by many fans, let alone machine generated art, things are slipping further down the slope. Hearing the Magic Historian's clip about artists getting slammed with deadlines for 5 pieces in a time where they can reasonably compete 2 means that higher ups are turning the screws on creative folks more and more which is disheartening. The art, made by artists, it what first attracted me to the game.
Indeed, and ultimately the amount of acceleration the game will see over the coming years. The reality is that while we as the general public only ever see sets as they are released and previewed (even with wizard's "and here's the next year's worth of planned sets.) Corporate know what the next 3-5 year's hold, even if they are just vague ideas and IP tie-ins they want to manufacture. I feel this is personified with the marvel sets now coming out. Yes, 4 year's ago when people were going coo-coo-ka-ka for cocopuffs over End Game and Infinity war, it probably made sense to start working on marvel tie-ins. Phase 4 was probably forecast to be a success, considering how staggeringly well the first 3 phases had gone. But here we are, all this time and art commissioned later. They aren't Not going to use it after they spent money on it.
Miku(and that applies to all virtual singers) is not an artist herself, but comparing her to AI is genuinely bad faith? Yes, she is not a human singer, she is quite literally a musical instrument of her own kind that can do vocals. Both the words she things and the ways she sings them, the music of the songs are the work of many real people who put their heart and soul into it and comparing it to soulless ai generation is insulting.
That is a good point, I hadn’t considered that but you’ve changed my mind; her being a musical instrument does make sense. If that part is done a fair amount by humans, then there is definitely a craft to that.
Honestly I love the duskmourn set so much. Looking at each card I haven't seen one that gives me the AI ick. In fact I was worried after Ixelan, Thunder Junction, modern horizon 3, and Bloomburrow. So many cards from those sets made me believe they might have used AI art. I hope they never use ai art as official art.
Out of interest, are there any specific cards from those sets that have given you that feeling? And I like that, the "AI Ick"
@jhminiatures7867 Ojer Axonil, Inti, Ojer Kaslem, Ornery Tumblewagg, Tomb Trawler, tumbleweed Rising, Alania's Pathmaker, Wick's Patrol, Lumra, are the ones that strike me the most. Specially Wick's Patrol when I played at the pre-release, I couldn't stop staring trying to figure out the details because it has that messy design feel that Ai has at times. Truthfully I don't believe any of these cards used ai, but looking that them just makes me paranoid.
And also, nothing wrong with liking ai art! But i think most people yern for the older paint style especially old nostalgic players
the new Korvold art makes me feel weird
Just to confirm, which art? There appears to have been a few secret lair and alternate arts released recently.
@jhminiatures7867 the gleeful glutton
Yeah I see what you mean. The glass shattering, the furniture being flung (but perfectly intact), it all feels a bit off doesn't it?
I don't think any of the artwork is AI generated, it's only send to be because it looks so soulless. Which is the lowest way an artist can be humiliated. If they don't seem to care about their art, why should you?
I don't think it's a case where the artists don't care, I think it's more the pressures they are under to churn out more art, quicker, and to the same standard.
If you can paint a masterpiece in a week (as an example), and then all of a sudden you're expected to paint 5, to the same quality in the same time frame or lose a contract and paid work, you'd look for alternative tools wouldn't you?
And, of course, I care because it's a game I enjoy and wish to see return to the quality and standards I used to experience in the game, 5 years ago if that.
Facts
AI could probably design better Phyrexian art than WOTC with how they treated _mi familia_ in recent expacs...
I still legitimately dont understand why people are so upset.
A person views a piece of art, they add it to their pleasant memories, they want to draw and some creatd art which stylistically is based off of these memories.
AI has art input [sees art], added to a recognizable database [memorizes art], receives input [human wants to draw], produces art [based on input & memory].
These are literally the same thing. If people feel like they're going to be replaced by AI maybe they should capitalize on styles or artwork that is too detailed, complex, or fascinating that AI can't copy. Otherwise, maybe there will be jobs to supply AI with art samples.
No, this is legitimately how my mind functions; I can hear presumptive bias before it happens.
I appreciate you taking the time to watch and comment friend. As a subject this video has been one of the most engaging for different views and opinions.
Whilst I don't agree with where you're coming from, I can see how you made those connections.
Like anything, AI and AI Generative art are incredibly divisive subjects. But it is here to stay now, and we can't pretend that it won't effect the creative development of the media we enjoy.
Immediate subscription. Brilliant video. I had the same reaction to Urza's Cave in particular.
At *best*, you're wrong about the examples you cited and they're just uninteresting or uninspired pieces, likely pressed out of overworked artists. At worst, the problem is already deeper than you've explained here...
Honestly, thank you for taking the time to watch the video. After possibly one of the worst video launches I've had, the discussions in the comment section have been some of the best. Thank you my friend, and im glad you enjoyed the video.
God this video was depressing, and I mean that as a compliment to how effectively you made your point. I dont necessarily agree with *every* example being AI, but enough of them give me that Ick you so eloquently describe, and now I'm scrolling through Foundations art and my heart is just sinking. Why do two of Sire of Seven Death's hands have one fewer fingers than the others? Why does the way the humans on Dauntless Veterans stick out in the foreground feel so unnatural?? Why is there SO MUCH symmetry in backgrounds, and why do background details so frequently blur into unnatural abstraction, like on Banner of Kinship??? I'm not decrying any of these examples as Definitely AI, but the fact that we're at a point where it is ALWAYS a possibility, and always something I'm at least aware of, is depressing
Thank you, I take that as the compliment it was intended as. It is hard, because ultimately it will become very easy, very quickly, to hand wave away Any art you dislike as AI Generated, or rather, AI Manipulated. Ah, I suppose in a way that's a video topic in its own right. But regardless, it is easy to find false positives even with newer art.
But as I've commented to others and point out in the video, this is the first to my knowledge that questions specific cards as to their, authenticity, for lack of an appropriate word. I'm sure, as harrowing as it may be, there will be more to come. More comparisons and analysis and critique.
But this, with the dawn of AI Generated, is now inevitable.
Again, thank you for taking the time to watch my video and comment. I am enjoying the discourse this has crested, as this conversation was what I wanted when I pieced this together. Thank you friend.
Also, I see you create music on UA-cam. Apologies for being blunt, as there's no messages function on UA-cam, but would you object if I used your music as background in my future videos? Thank you.
What? No. Doomsday Excruciator is a fine design. It simply used photobashing and less traditional techniques. Zero chance that an AI could be so deliberate in the placement of all the elements in play without making a complete mess of it. Liiga from the Screaming Nemesis art simply has a very unusual style. Look at all his other art. They all lean towards the abstract but were competently done. I for one love that card in particular for how well its colors pop in the frame, and how ethereal it seems. In general, I think your examples seem... unfortunate... they include some of the most competent and unique art in the set. There is more likely examples in say, the new foundation lands, and even those I would doubt to be AI.
"Intuitive Revulsion" is a dangerous concept, I believe. The average person is really, really bad at identifying AI art. Ask your grandmother to differentiate AI from real digital art, I doubt she'll do that well. You have been looking at digital artworks longer than the average person, you may not produce it, but you have a grasp of what things are supposed to look like, generally. You probably do have this vague sense of being able to tell the small differences, and that's great. Do you think the next generation will still be able to do that? They haven't had decades on the internet to build so specific a visual library. I genuinely believe we need to stop looking at detail and composition in art for its own merit. It will lead to false positives all the time. These are the things that are childs play for AI. It should be all about deliberate intention, composition, symbolism, and construction. If that is what audiences promote, then that is what good artists will attempt to create. Of course, that probably won't happen for general audiences, and that is okay.
Thank you for taking the time to comment on my video. While we both disagree on the subject, I think there are some very valid points and concerns you've raised.
I think the comparison with an elderly relative is quite bad-faith, as for the life of me I don't think a grandparent is the kind of person Wizard's or indeed any AI artist targets with their work. But the next generation, yes I see the worry there. The proliferation of Ai generated art will as you point out taint the waters, so to speak.
I agree on the shout with basic / full art lands. A lot of the recent full art lands, Duskmourn and New Capenna specifically, have strong Ai Generated energy even if they were deliberately painted. As I point out in the video, lands are likely for Wizard's to target with Ai art, after all who cares about lands.
But this is a start. No one is scrutinising magic art like this, not from what I've seen. For copied / stolen art certainly, and for over all quality, but for use of AI Art? No, this I believe is the first, and as such is flawed. But this, sadly, won't be the last. But probably not from this channel.
Thank you again.
On the subject of false positives, I bet the art for Mind Stone by Adam Rex would be raked over the coals if it was new today.
Indeed. Thank you for the comment my friend.
This is the perfect example of the bigger problems with this admittedly early generation of AI art - it imposes invisible limitations on artists as they dont want the subjective or surreal elements of their work to be cited as AI hallmarks. Not to be apocalyptic but i can only imagine AI art generation improves leaps and bounds in the next 5-10 years
And I suppose to cast our minds further, what will the "counter culture" art look like in 5-10 years to challenge this? Already we're seeing artists use watermarks as a way to trap the AI gens, which can't differentiate when scouring material.
A couple criticisms (constructive) to levy here:
1. AI is definitely a possibility in every piece you've mentioned, but your intuitive revulsion is not a sure-fire way to pick out the pieces. Maybe the art has dropped in quality, but you said yourself: we shouldn't call art we don't like AI.
2. It's worth it to research name pronunciation. Each name in this video has a language of origin, and should be easy enough to find guides online for.
That said, you bring up a legitimate concern. AI is in a nebulous space where we can't know for sure whether it's being used or not. It's out there, and it cannot be put back into its bottle. This video is great for discussion on that front.
Thank you, I appreciate the feedback. I am certain, with time and further scrutiny, others will develop the tools or more accurate tests to identify AI Generated art either in part or fully on magic the gathering cards. This video is, and I will continue to point this out until I am corrected, to the best of my knowledge the first to actually question specific magic cards and their authenticity. Which in turn has now sparked conversation on the subject. It was, I feel, inevitable, and it pleases me to no end to see a broad canvas of responses, feedback and input from individuals. Again, thank you for taking the time to watch my video.
It's always so bland and soulless.
I've gone through about 15 different visual AIs and none of them are creative. After some time you can pretty easily see repetition of 'core approaches' - like for example each AI is hard locking into same compositions (based on datasets) that cannot be broken free of. All AIs cause terrible frustration in hands of a professional because there's like no true versatility at all. Take a look at how AI destroyed the uniqueness (visual language) of eldrazi - the AI just doesn't have any understanding in unique things and if you look at the details it's all trash - there' s not really true interest/structure/depth. What you get are just boring averages without anything special. Sure the lighting is good and faces can be good too if you're after something non-special, but that's all AI has to offer today. Well, Magic is done anyways due to Universes Beyond and all the product overflow in general - all that's left is just a hollow money making framework.
The great irony will always be if you rewind back 6-7 years ago, the thought of an IP crossover in Magic was a joke at best. We would have Maybe a "my little pony" event exclusive, or transformers cards, but they were Always silver bordered.
Maybe its the artist in me, or just the science and history nerd... but the biggest nonsense in this video is that whosoever wanted to charge for their finding of the kouros, or any ancient artifact. Like, you didn't knowingly spend your money to purchase it, you just "found" it... give it to the museum. If they have to damage your property or something to retrieve it sure you should be reimbursed, but other than that I would expect nothing more than like a placard saying you donated or found it beside it's display. -.-
So Monumental Facade (fa'sod is correct French, not fuckaid xD) and Urza's Cave are actually painted, they are done in a more hasty concept-art style. Bruce Brenneise actually sells many of his preliminary drawings. He then usually does acrylics for about 80-90% of the painting then finishes them in digital.
Mark Poole is extremely talented with oils, acrylics, and digital... I highly doubt he would ever waste his time with Ai.
The Doomsday Excruciator looks like a mixmedia, likely using a combination of digital and Blender 3D software, the background looks like it could be rendered in Unreal Engine.
Both Naban are indeed made with the symmetry-tool in most digital programs, after using it you go back over your piece tweaking things to make it seem less symmetrical.
One thing that can often feel uncanny and goes really far back in Magic art is photobashing, especially for architecture. You chop up photos to build structure then paintover it. Forest 303 from Ravnica City of Guilds is an extremely obvious example.
Digital is usually what feels off in my opinion, especially 3D tools like Blender, most of Magic was done traditionally for a long time and I strongly prefer traditional mediums... but digital goes go all the way back to Circle of Protection Black in Limited Edition Beta! There's even weirder mediums too like in Urza's Saga, Higgenbotham didn't paint, his famous Worn Powerstone and Voltaic Key are photos of physical sculptures.
My favorite artist in Magic is Wayne Reynolds who as far as I know never uses digital anything, just draws then paints acrylics. They recently got Justin Gerard onboard who is another favorite artist he usually draws then paints with oil, sometimes touching up with digital.
Jesper Ejsing, Rebecca Guay, Raymond Swanland, Magali Villeneuve, Donato Giancola, Mark Poole, John Avon, Wylie Beckert... there's so many insanely talented artists in modern Magic.
Thank you for your input. It's always good to hear different takes on a video subject.
I would ask, for clarity, which forest art are you referring to in Ravnica City of Guilds. 303 brings up...a lot of art surprisingly. Can you specify the artist so I can find it easier? Thank you.
Again, thank you for taking the time to watch my video. I appreciate the positive discourse this subject has created.
@@jhminiatures7867 Stephan Martiniere, looking at his Magic gallery looks like he uses photobashing for everything. But the Forest is the only one I could remember off the top of my head.
Thank you. Yes, I see what you mean.
“Maybe its the artist in me”- bro check your ego your a human not royalty. People can say art sucks its fine youll survive
@@alexanderthurber4257 Can you not read at all? xD lmfao I was saying it sucks that someone would charge a museum for what might be a historic artifact... literally nothing about art being bad.
Was unaware that humans couldn't be royalty either. :') But I am technically royalty lol
Must be that "ego" that makes someone talk about how great modern Magic artists are in two paragraphs.
Baseless accusations, slander, ragebait. Shame on you.
I'm sorry to hear you feel that way. Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and comment.
Relax king Geoffrey , people are allowed to have opinions. U cant slander an artist they are common people not gods. Check you ego
I wasn't entirely too sold on these cards being ai art until Doomsday Excruciator. It's not even a well hidden abuse of ai
It's a funny one, because again it's difficult to not look at cards that we can inherently dislike the art for and say "oh, an ai did this." But that doesn't explain why we have an inherent Feeling that something isn't quite right. And these are only a handful of examples. Magic is producing Thousands of cards a year now (factoring in all their products, secret lairs and so on), so it's inevitable that atleast Some of them will feature AI in some capacity.
I doubt that one is AI. I've seen hundreds of pieces like that before Image Gen was a thing. It's simply heavy use of photobashing and maybe some 3D. But the easiest way is to check is to look at Denys Tsiperkos portfolio, as you always should when debating this kind of thing, and yup, he is simply very good at doing that kind of thing. Lots of 3D models wiht some overpainting. Glad to clear that up. Would a guy with that kind of portfolio bother with AI? He's got an amazing workflow already completely sorted out.
Thank you for your input. Whilst I disagree on your points, I'll happily admit that I haven't reviewed the artist's catalogues of works. I am glad to hear their work doesn't lean towards or rely on AI Generated pieces. However, I would pose a counter point;
When we play with magic cards, we don't have a catalogue of an artist's work to hand. We have the one art in front of us. We have to base our feelings on an individual's contribution to that one card. That's part of what makes this situation all the more muddied. We can't give people the benefit of the doubt, if the only thing we know about them in that moment is "this card art feels wrong to me."
There is another video idea there however, of going through individual artist's portfolios of work and analysing them. But I'll leave that to more talented and knowledgeable individuals who are better equipped to do this.
Dang a video about ai art lol
Yes.