It was just an Eric Bischoff rehab project | Who Killed WCW finale | Wrestling Observer Radio
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Dave Meltzer and Bryan Alvarez give their thoughts on the fourth and final part of 'Who Killed WCW'.
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Too much blame & too much credit across the board. Plus the SEC not investigating the WWF purchase of WCW was a huge deal.
Yeah there's some usual suspects involved 👃
Kind of makes you scratch your head and Go hmmm
Facts 👍
Rewatching Nitro is so weird. It was SO FUCKING GOOD for about two and a half years.
I watch Reliving the War on Wrestling Bios (check it out if you haven't already) and you aren't wrong, though it does have moments where it's really trying. But Russo is about to come over now in the timeline of the series (September 1999) and its all downhill to the grave from here.
With that said, I don't think WWF was much better in 1999. It still better but it also has its issues, and Russo leaving was the best thing that could've happened for WWF at that point.
@@Sockimus, as far as I'm concerned, 1998 WWF was FAR, FAR better than 99. They disappeared up their own arses (Corporation, Corporate Ministry, ALL the Undertaker rubbish). But WCW was already crumbling, and the Rock was incredible.
I honestly prefer WCW at its peak to just about any product (I've not watched enough Crockett or All Japan). But even in mid-98, there are deep problems. Goldberg, though incredibly over, is not amazing, the NWO have already jumped the shark, and Hogan just needed to be gone.
The WCW midcard was phenomenal, but so badly used (not dissimilar to current AEW).
@rob776 I remember watching Goldberg win the title on Nitro as a kid with my brother and I'd never been so excited/invested in wrestling like I was in that moment. Gives me that real warm nostalgia feeling just thinking about it.
Reminds me of Dynamite
@@rob776It wasn’t “rubbish” ya mook😒
WCW was sold in much the same way a used washing machine is sold at a yard sale.
You sell it for 5 bucks just because someone has a truck and is willing to take it away same day.
Shout out to that WCW ring ending up in the island of Trinidad, somehow
Absolutely horrible analogy.
@@Kenny-Blankenshipwait, what?!
I didn’t click on this video to hear about Guy Evans. The same way you can have different books about Chris Benoit, you can have multiple books about WCW. Say what you will about Meltzer, you can’t say he didn’t have access to the wrestling people responsible for the death of WCW.
Nobody since Bischoff has beaten WWE , not AEW not TNA , it was 83 weeks of Eric Bischoff love him or hate him he's been the only promoter to ever come close to legit shutting down WWF and Vince McMahon , Bischoff made McMahon go on different direction in terms of McMahons product . t
Pretty sure they covered in the doc that the company didnt get the ppv revenue, it went to the television company. In thay case, wouldnt Hogan's cut be considered part of the expenses of the PPV?
Stu Snyder & Brad Siegel attended each others Bar Mitvahs
Still think it’s funny how people like Meltzer and Alvarez, neither of which were working for AOL-TW, WCW, Turner Sports, or the WWF, continue to dismiss what the people who WERE working there, have to say about what happened or their experiences were. Smart journalism. But I suppose “wrestling journalism” is loosely relative 🤔
To be fair, most of those involved are proven to be pathological liars [Russo, Bischoff], would do anything to protect their spot at the total burial of everyone else [Nash] or suits who know how to cover their ass [every single Turner person interviewed].
Actually, Nash is a liar too, because he denied for YEARS that it was his idea to beat Goldberg, and he outright comes out and admits it in this doc.
The Vice series was definitely created with the goal of making Russo and Bischoff sympathetic figures.
I like how they say it was just an Eric Bischoff rehab project. Bischoff didnt produce the show. Perhaps the producers just told the truth?
I mean, if you're a happy idiot who'll believe stupid shit, sure!
@@Julian-xj6mh
I don't think anyone will claim that WCW didn't make mistakes, but to single them out and use that as the catalyst for their downfall is ridiculous.
@@Julian-xj6mhYou’re a mook😒
If only they were honest about AEW like this huh 😂
Whoever decided to give Hogan creative control in his contract is the person who killed WCW…lol
the only thing bischoff had was a direct line to the guy with the money (turner) and the guy who made the money (ho kogan); that's it.
Dave is a professional fucking yapper holy shit
16:51 'Jamie Kellner wouldn't talk, you know, but, you know, he'd passed away and they tried to get him'
vice produced the documentary before he passed away;
dave does ramble, though.
@@meherenow793 Yeah, I know. It's just the way he phrased it made me chuckle.
The title of this video has very little to do with the content of the actual video
Bryan is just mad the narrative of his book is being challenged. Dave’s analysis is interesting here.
Wrestling Fans, Marketing Exec’s and Marks should never book wrestling.
Or maybe Eric wasn’t too blame. No one wanted wrestling except for one man and that man sold his company. When other people took the book they only made it worse. It really seems like Dave and Brian are trying to spin their own narrative and don’t like that they’re called out as liars. Eric made mistakes, but that dude didn’t kill WCW
It’s because Dave, and Brian got exposed just by the turner executives telling the truth on what really happened which contradicts what Dave ,and Brian have been saying for years , and now Dave and Brian are coping ,and seething , and trying to spin hard.😂
No, there were many contributing factors that killed WCW.
Eric still deserves a great share of the blame. He had no good exit strategy with the nWo and when Raw reclaimed the ratings battle Eric sorta panicked. He killed Goldberg’s streak thinking it was going to get oversaturated when in reality the streak was one of the last things keeping the company competitive. When he brought back the nWo at full force in early 1999 it just came off making WCW look like a one-trick pony and did nothing to bring viewers back. WCW just slid into a period of mediocrity in 1999 and Eric is responsible for that. It was his job to make the product better and he can’t blame Turner execs for that. Those same execs were there for the rise. How were they any different then? Eric just couldn’t follow up the nWo, he kept throwing tons of money at acts that did nothing to bring back viewers, and the company slid. That’s why he will always have his lion’s share of the blame.
Yeah, I think blaming him for killing it is really unfair. He made mistakes, but it was terrible before he came along and it got worse after he left.
@@bleedorange1998💯💯
Overrall it's a sad tale of what happen to WCW it should have not go down the way it did
These two act like they are the only people who know the truth. Everyone else's opinions are wrong. That includes executives at Turner. Give me a break. Just say it. Eric has been on your ass the past year, and you're holding a grudge
They also are hurt because they believe they should have gotten a spot on the show lol. The entitlement is foul.
This is literally their entire business model to pretend they're insiders . They're not insiders lol
Opinions are not facts
@@evandrofurtado7576 that's the problem when listening to these two. They frame it in a way that they imply their opinions are objective truths.
I didn’t know how close Bischoff & his investors were to buying WCW, so that’s information i got from the episode. Hopefully this is the last we hear of the end of WCW.
Guy Evans exposed these two clowns big time with his book Nitro.
Just outta curiosity, how’d they get exposed? Need to pick up GEs book when I get a chance
@@Charsi_Escobar I believe anyone with an open mind after reading both books can come to the conclusion that Alvarez's book has a narrow, agenda driven perspective on the downfall of of WCW. His book definitely puts the bulk of the blame on Bischoff, Hogan, and Russo. Guy Evans with Nitro offers a much broader perspective. He goes into great detail on the creative mistakes too, but provides indepth insight into the Turner organization and the struggles wrestling always faced with the executives. I think if you believe creative decisions killed WCW before reading Nitro and still believe after reading it that Starrcade '97 and the finger poke of doom were the reasons for the downfall and don't consider the big picture surrounding WCW and that there was a whole host of factors in it's demise, you're a very stubborn person that believes whatever you want to believe.
Excellent video
"They blamed it on everything but the product sucking." Is this a self-parody of how you cover AEW?
That was my exact thought haha
He's always finds excuses for them. Always.
Are you a happy person?
Seriously, do you guys even watch AEW? It's not great, or even good, but if all its critics watched it as they claim, the viewing figures would be far higher.
@rob776 I'm from another country so I don't factor into ratings, but I gave up on Dynamite halfway through a Bucks match I think against the Hardy Party? It was atrocious and made no sense and I have only watched clips since then. Nothing I've seen has suggested I should come back.
I didn’t think it was just that. It was pretty fair I thought
Dave Meltzer killed WCW
He had nothing to do with that
Who killed WCW 🤔 Ted Turner Time Warner AOL Brad sigeal Eric bisoff Vince Russo hulk Hogan all the garunteed contracts
Can we please cut the please subscribe message please?
Why dude? It bothers you that much? It was fucking 5 seconds. They're trying to run a business here.
no.
Tf that's the best part?
especially after they raised their prices. Much like AEW, less and less people are watching, so now Dave has to charge more.
Bro it’s 3 seconds chill out or skip it.
Is guy Evans not media?
I can’t wait for Darkside of the ring, All Out Brawl. And, Who Killed AEW
When will there be a special or series about TNA?
@@yourfavoriteentertainmentkeep dreaming tna is better than aew last night shows it once again
@@YOUSUCKONE666TNA should’ve folded 15 years ago, and hopefully AEW will too ya mook😒
So you're a wrestling fan who wants another wrestling company to fail? Typical of internet wrestling 'fans'
Bischoff got too lax. For all the praise for winning 83 weeks, he also bottomed out despite having all that money, talent and fanfare. You don’t praise that bad of a flop
The whole series just felt like a long form youtube video.
Dwayne told you why he made this documentary at the end. "I like Eric a lot, he's a buddy." He was basically doing this as PR for a pal.
To be fair Bischoff always told that story the same.
wtf is with these comments, does everyone just hatewatch wor now?
It’s cause Meltzer , and Alvarez are clowns, and were exposed for being wrong on a lot of things about the downfall of WCW , especially from the turner executives themselves telling what really happened which contradicted what meltzer and alvarez have said for years . Seeing Meltzer and Alvarez cope seeth and deflect now is pure gold 😂
@@nbadecali1927 Alvarez's book was dog shit and got surpassed by better books going over WCW. Meltzer and Bryan look t the situation from a marks POV.
@@christianjames92"surpassed by better books going over wcw"
You sound like such an idiot
@@nbadecali1927executives, famously honest about who really did what. Suits always take the blame for when things go wrong, they never just make shit up.
Two big clowns with in even shoes
These guys hate that they can't soley write the history.
Kind of like your show is an AEW rehab project.
Remember when Tony Khan said he learned from WCW’s mistakes but ended up repeating many of them?
Last time I checked aew is not dead
@@matt92550 not yet
@@matt92550 AEW is only 5 years old...odd enough WCW in its
5th year was miles above in ratings...
Everyones ratings are low compared to back then. Try again
1. He’s not blowing money out of desperation.
2. AEW is building up their new stars which WCW did not do so when they should have.
3. Their broadcast partners are still happy with them because despite what everyone says AEW is a hit on cable.
The booking had nothing to do with it Turner executives barely tolerated it when it was getting 6.0 ratings
And what did Vince do burry wcw and it's wrestlers wrestling died thanks to greedy ass vince
Posting a comment about how awful the new intros are until you stop adding them or the heat death of the universe. The random water droplet sound is horrible and a random 5 second intro is enough to make me want to not watch the video.
This is not a knock on Dave but you would think that he has enough contacts and resources to put together his own “who killed wcw” project I know the observer is his first priority but I’m sure he is making bank and can start to navigate towards other projects
He is neither making bank nor has legit contacts dude, he's a dirt sheet writer who makes up shit on the spot
I can’t believe ANYONE pays for this stammering, excuse-riddled, incessant rambling, bashing of anything but their employer’s = AEW
Haven't watched a Wrestling Observer video in a good while
Good to still see people bringing up AEW and Tony Khan even if the video had nothing to do with them.
I don't believe you, Dave.
It’s time to stop giving the WCW rogue’s gallery screen time to peddle whatever bullshit they think will make them look best.
Episode 2 was about the product becoming bad under Bischoff. Episode 3 was about the product getting worse under Russo.
They never brought up 1999 which annoyed me because Russo, although he does deserve some of the blame for expediting WCW’s demise, WCW was already in free fall by the Summer of 1999.
@@cmurphy0707The Hummer angle alone.
Bischoff was fired for good reason in September of 99, and WCW was terminal by then.
@@mistere9099 Agreed, in 1999 they went from 485,000 PPV buys in February to 175,000 by July.
@@cmurphy0707And where I’ll give Bischoff some credit is that on his podcast he talks about how in 1999 he was creatively shitting the bed and had nothing in the tank.
Rikishi killed WCW, and he did it for the Rock.
Bruh 🤣
They probably felt like they needed a protagonist and they made Eric the underdog hero in the edit. I imagine that moment of showing Eric that clip of Nash talking him up was a reshoot/pick up.
Stu Sneider nodded while answering the question no. Classic sign of a lie
Bischoff 100% deserves some of the blame. But not all of it.
Jamie Kelner was just the final blow.....
Honestly WCW if the sale with fusient would have gone through and they would have been given a couple of months to find a new network.....
I believe they'd still be in business today... I mean as you've seen many networks have been getting into the wrestling business.....I am if TNA with no more than it's got is still in business WCW could have really stayed around
TNA had to pay for their TV time slot in the beginning (Fox Sports HD). I'm not sure Bischoff's group was willing to do that.
Why can't Chico pay attention when he watches stuff? Both Guy Evans's superior book Nitro and this TV miniseries stated that WCW was hemorrhaging money, and that other divisions within Turner used that to pile on their failures. Neither Nitro nor this series suggests Bischoff wasn't responsible in some way for WCW failing. They only posit the idea that maybe, just maybe, there was more to it than bad booking.
To sum up the whole series, there’s two answers:
1/ the business side of the business. After the AOL time warner merger the new people in charge didn’t want wrestling like TT did.
2/ the product side: bad booking and (like Konan said) the ageing top guys wouldn’t work with the miss card guys and create new stars, and there was no Vince like boss figure to make them do the best thing for business.
I'd love to hear Bryan talk, considering he wrote a book about it. But hearing Dave say uhhhh and say the same thing over and over is fine.
@@burnerwerzog, then why click on a F4W video?
I'll give you 1 guess as to who the biggest source for said book was
If Dave was on this series the editor would have spent hours trying to edit all of Dave’s “umm you know, like” out
ummm, you know, i mean, yeah, whatever
"The thing was is, you know it's like freakin... You were there and the thing is is, or it was, is that..."
Yeah, it's a mystery that nobody wanted to interview him for television.
Errr, uhhh, yeaaaah, you know, ommmmm
Worth
Lets hear you speak
Sorta feels like there’s a Guy Evans nitro camp and a Bryan Alvarez death of wcw camp
I own both, Guy Evens was informative, Bryan Alvarez was entertaining.
Yep. Guy really exposed Alvarez's WCW book for just going for the easy narrative the Bischoff, Hogan, Russo killed WCW because they knew wrestling fans would eat that up.
@coldsnap5742 So you're saying the narrative Alvarez's WCW book pushed is Turner execs killed WCW? Alvarez's book put the bulk of the blame on Bischoff, Hogan, and Russo.
The point is Guy Evans book exposed Alvarez lack of journalism.
@coldsnap5742 You're delusional.
@coldsnap5742 You're delusional.
Come on Bryan. WCW got crap from their networks. Clearly the product and those in it or in charge of it was bad. But the corporate side was not interested in helping it be successful either.
Brrrryyyaaaannn
My man is jealous as hell….He wrote a shit book, and Guy Evans’ book was miles bette than his. Awww he wanted to have a show about his book. It was Guy Evan’s’ book that the show was based on. Why would they have the author (and Dave) of the inferior book that was so surface level compared to Evans’ book
Man was it really that mediocre 😂need to pick up GE’s book next chance that I get
Bischoff deserves a lot of credit for the success of WCW, which he gladly accepts, but he also equally deserves credit for a lot of its failures, which he refuses, ignores, "forgets", or "can't recall". He made good choices. He made bad choices. And those bad choices helped run off fans and devalue the company. Did Russo harm the product as well? Sure, absolutely, but in my opinion, WCW had already gone past the point of no return well before Russo arrived (finger poke of doom). Bischoff and Russo combined gave the Turner/AOL/Time Warner execs all the ammo they needed to pull the plug in WCW.
LOLOL Meltzer just blew away everything Alvarez said.
One NWO entrance had more charisma to it than anything Will Ospreay or MJF will do in their entire careers
They blamed it on everything but the product sucking
OMG the irony here from these two guys
Why do you subscribe to these ppl if you hate aew and you think these ppl are aew shills
because its fun to mock@@SeeingShadows
@beauclark1650 why don't u be happy and watch cornette or bishoff you always clown aew and shill for the wwe
You're really owning the shit out of these two geeks by watching and leaving a comment on their video!
You got these jabronis by increasing their UA-cam ad revenue and having it populate more algorithms
While it is true that they are going easy on Eric, I also think Alvarez research is being exposed.
How? Neither of us were there.
You know
Meltzer never stops talking.
Broooooo this mf talked the whole time 😂😂😂
@tylersauls3557 if he's ever on non wrestling podcasts it's more noticeable. Brians too nice and let's him talk
i mean its his show...uhmmmm...like...ya know....its like...like...hmmm...ya know
@@n.7482uhmmmmmmmmmm BRIAN
Is that not his job?
After listening to a Meltzer clip i have smoke coming out my ears and ive learmed NOTHING. weird
Damn, imagine admitting to being that stupid
10:10 - "...they were done with pro wrestling and that's what killed it".
As a lifelong wrestling fan WCW was what I grew up watching
NWO 4 LIFE 😎🤘
RIP WCW
Gone but never Forgotten
F the Hater brigade
Screw AEW😒
AEW sucks😒
@@anthonylucero6650 WWE fanfool spotted
@@anthonylucero6650 Predator vince backer spotted
I can’t believe how bad they kissed Bischoff’s ass. I guess he’ll be available for any & all future Darkside episodes or these guys projects.
Bischoff was obviously a good mind for the sport, he was able to beat Vince for over a year
If you actually read the boo this documentary was based off you'd understand Bischoff had very little to do with WCW dying. Guy Evans is not a mark. He interviewed the actual executives at Time Warner for his book.
Get out of daves ass lol
Can you name anyone else who beat Vince McMahon for 83 weeks
Janel Gray. She got his entire career canceled.
NFL, below deck, CNN, FOX news, just off the top of my head
Beating Vince 83 weeks to out of business a year later is not a Flex and never will be
“The product sucking…”
That sounds familiar.
That's not fair. NXT is trying hard. Getting help now and again from main roster and TNA, and AEW.
@@johnnymittle NXT literally has higher ratings than AEW 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@nbadecali1927no they don't
@@DarlaKajcayes they do.
@@nbadecali1927 Do they? Are the ratings out yet? This week NXT didn't have TNA or WWE main.
Are you sure they are ahead of AEW?
If Dave is going to filibuster then why is Flyin’ Bryan here??!!??
It was the March pay-per-view not the February one; Uncensored. SuperBrawl was the February pay-per-view.
"I'm cursed with a really good memory of that time."
I reached the same conclusion watching this as I did reading the Nitro book - there were many people and things that contributed to WCW's fall but it was the merger and Jamie Kellner that delivered the killing blow.
What merger?
@@_WF23seriously?
Ultimately this. If Kelner doesn't outright hate wrestling and is instead lukewarm or even neutral on the subject then WCW gets sold to Fusient and there's a chance WCW never goes out of business.
Jamie Kellner didn't put down a strong animal, he put a slug into a sickly dog who was slowly dying
@@OlDirtyBaron WCW was already dead when Kellner canceled it. He is as close to completely blameless as it gets in this
People got over the nWo storyline and the company died. Thats it. They copied an angle from japan and became successful because of it. Then it played itself out over 2 years and they died. The company sucked before the nWo and when the angle ran its course wcw was worse than it was before the nwo angle by far. The product sucked and it died.
1. Brad Siegel said WCW would have been profitable even during the downfall if Turner paid market value rights fees. WCW got paid minimal fees by Turner for their shows.
2. WCW also had to pay production for Thunder.
3.The accounting at Turner was done in a way to make certain divisions look better and other worse, very common practice in conglomerates. They didn't want WCW so they piled on financial losses to the company.
4. The sale of WCW to WWE is very suspect. Stu Synder and Brad Siegel relationship and the fact it sold for so cheap when Fusion had a deal for $67M is very odd.
4. is explained in the ep as Kellner deciding he didn't want to give primetime TV to wrestling, and Nitro/Thunder on TNT and TBS were part of that $67 million dollar deal. WCW was a tv show first and foremost and without TV, Bischoff is right, the company is damn near worthless.
If Dave was on this show he would probably have the same look he always has eyes half closed interrupting people and the reason the viewers go down
As fans at the time we were fatigued with wrestling… The WCW product had ran its course and nobody was glued to Steiner vs Booker as a main event. I think even if EB did take the company on it would have failed because WWF was unstoppable by this point. EB and his crew should have acquired UFC instead…
Nobody was glued to Hogan vs Flair in the main event. Booker vs Steiner happened way too late.
@@DBecks09 they were never going to be able to take it further, I always saw hogan as the finish of WCw because of how big he was
Bret Hart
Konnan
Booker T. were the ones I was focus on as views from the inside.
Nash as well for me.
I was telling my partner that the opinions I cared about the most were those without ulterior motives(i.e. had nothing to lose). Konnan really has no skin in the game anymore. He isn't beholden to any companies and can talk freely. Nash too.
Bret is extremely bitter and has reasons to hate a ton of specific people, Bischoff being one of them since Bret felt he was misused and put against Golberg where he got injured.
Booker offered some good insights, but in the end? He's a WWE shill, Vince ass-kisser now. So him pointing fully at Bischoff as the only reason is hard to take seriously. Especially when Bischoff was responsible for the most popular time in the company's history and then was fired and saddled with a complete baffoon when he returned.
@@RavenGlenn, Bischoff is tricky for me. As I've said in another comment, I love early Nitro as much as any product, before or after. But he was still in charge in 1998/1999 and the product was already slipping in mid-1998, badly.
He doesn't deserve all the blame. But he's not blameless, either. Fair?
I think dx trying to invade wcw killed wcw
It’s crazy cause Bischoff is the one calling Dave a liar 😂😂
Ummm, that was the deal. Umm, of course that wasn't the deal. Ummm
Dave: "The people were actually involved don't know what they're talking about...I who was reporting 2nd-hand gossip at the time, KNOW exactly what happened" 😅
That's the hilarious thing. The guys like Jamie, Brian Siegel, etc who had WCW's books knew absolutely nothing, but Dave getting gossip rumors from dudes in catering knows about the companies ins and outs.
As much as I criticize Dave, the people actually involved can have vested interests in coloring their accounts, or just get things wrong 20+ years after the fact.
O ya, what would Konnan know? Or Nash, ddp and booker t or even bischoff? Besides the fact they were actually there and you guys weren’t. Funny how that works isn’t it? Get a real job guys. You’re pathetic.
Meltzer loves wrestling, abit too much
Damn Bryan sure does hate bishoff
Does Dave actually ever say anything?
Just because it doesn’t marry up with what Brian wrote in his book. As Eric would say, errr you weren’t there 😂
You didn't have to be there when plenty of people talk about the shitshow WCW turned out to be.
Alvarez's book is shit. The real definitive book on the situation is Nitro written by Guy Evans. Evans didn't take the pro wrestling bullshit route. He went and interviewed actual execs for AOL and time Warner and got the actual reason for their demise.
@@christianjames92That's what should be the take away for wrestling fans here. Alvarez's WCW book was exposed by Guy Evans. He actually put in work instead listening to disgruntled wrestlers.
Based on how little his recollection lines up with anyone elses, I'm not convinced Bischoff was there either.
Meltzer talks like a guy that needs rehab.
So will Dave Meltzer be apart of the Who Killed AEW Vice TV special in 2027?
Such a disappointing doc
Surprised Dwayne Johnson spoke on it
I wonder if Rock was a replacement for Vince McMahon, due to McMahon currently being a rather toxic subject.
Easy E was the 🐐
Feels like either Bischoff is gonna be hired back to WWE for a role or those rumored plans of TKO looking to revive WCW as a separate brand have merit
Listing to these guys talk about WCE then hear these guys talk about AEW and no way u can’t tell me there isn’t a bias. They have problem saying WCW product sucks but would never say that about AEW when they never been anywhere close to WCW popularity
Alverez buries AEW all the time.
-Debunks his shitty book
-Alvarez cries about it
Hey Bryan, do you think we are ever gonna get an Orient Express Reunion between Tanaka, Kato, and Sato?
History repeating itself with Forbidden Door. Aka the Mexican New Blood Angle.
Dave and Bryan twisting like pretzels trying to maintain their narrative.