Musk Officially Revealed ''The Hardest Starship Technical Challenge Remaining Next Launch"
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Musk Officially Revealed ''The Hardest Starship Technical Challenge Remaining Next Launch"
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00:00 - 05:23: Elon Musk’s goal and why
05:23 - 07:06: The goals’ challenges
07:06 - 08:14: SpaceX’s basis
08:14 - 08:56: Upcoming flight
08:56 - 09:11: Conclusion
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HUGE THANKS TO:
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/ @alexsvanart
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Evan Karen: / @evankaren
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/ @clarence3654
TheSpaceEngineer: / mcrs987 / @thespaceengineer
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Musk Officially Revealed ''The Hardest Starship Technical Challenge Remaining Next Launch"
Welcome to another exciting episode of Great SpaceX! Today, we're diving into the complexities of the Starship's heat shield system, a critical component in the rocket's development journey.
Even for an optimist like Elon Musk, perfecting the heat shield poses significant challenges. Musk himself acknowledged the difficulties when discussing the ideal goal for this crucial system. The heat shield plays a pivotal role in protecting the spacecraft during its fiery reentry into Earth's atmosphere.
Musk Officially Revealed ''The Hardest Starship Technical Challenge Remaining Next Launch"
But why is the heat shield system so hard to perfect? Well, every aspect of rocket design is intricate, and for a colossal rocket like Starship, the complexities are magnified. The heat shield must withstand incredibly high temperatures and intense forces during reentry, all while ensuring the safety of the spacecraft and its occupants.
However, despite the challenges, SpaceX is known for its innovative solutions and relentless pursuit of excellence. Can they solve these problems? That's the burning question we'll explore in today's episode.
Musk Officially Revealed ''The Hardest Starship Technical Challenge Remaining Next Launch"
So, buckle up and join us as we delve into the fascinating world of rocket engineering and the quest for the perfect heat shield on Great SpaceX!
Elon Musk and his team at SpaceX are committed to achieving full reusability with their vehicles, a goal they've made significant strides towards with Falcon rockets and Dragon spacecraft. However, the pinnacle of reusability remains elusive, awaiting the advent of Starship. Flight 3 marked SpaceX's earnest endeavor toward this goal, showcasing impressive re-entry moments for both B10 and S28 prototypes. - Наука та технологія
My suggestion is to use a T-rail type pins, instead of the 3 push-in pin, try a slide-in T-rail attachment with the tiles having slits on its sides. I'm sure SpaceX engineers can make it work.
I know this might be outside of the box, but what do you think would happen if the whole starship was covered with tiles?
And the starship would be rotated on his axis during reentry I like a barbecue spit
They can also try something like a tongue and groove concept to keep the tiles together.
then how does a tile get replaced?
@@subvind with tremendous effort.
@@subvind That's a good question, but if it works, there won't be a need to replace the tiles. I guess gluing individual tiles will still be an option. But the idea has its merit. Maybe a combination of pins and rails? However, I'm not a rocket scientist, what do I know?
Could it be just 3d printed right on ship's surface ? This way shield could be different in different parts and in a same time monolithic 😊
sletece, moraju da isprobavaju, 👍 i 💯 ce uspeti. 👍🚀✔
Make one big solid piece or in sections or a combo with the tiles
Why tiles? I've wondered that since the Shuttle. I'm sure there are scientific reasons, but what are they? Why not just make the material into a coating and use shielding as a one-piece application?
I believe the idea behind it is for rapid reuse. It’s much more efficient to change a few tiles and get it prepped for the next launch. Another reason I believe is because of the thermal expansion of the two different materials.
It gets very hot very quickly and expands when it heats. Then falls through the friged high altitude and they shrink. This causes cracks in large surface areas.
If Starship loses a few tiles randomly, the stainless steel hull can still withstand the heat of reentry. But that could effect later reusability of Starship.
During the last reentey, the ship was rolling uncontrollably, exposing major sections of the un-tiled ship to reentry. The upcomming flight Starship needs to maintain its reentry orientation.
The heat shield protection could be composed of two parts. Multiple ablative mats(x tiles wide by y tiles long) that cover the ships stainless steel hull. The cleats on stainless steel hull pierce the ablative mat. The hexagon heat resistant tiles are now fixed to the cleats they also secure the ablative mat. So if a several local tiles fall off the ablative mat still protects the underlying stainless steel hull.
No flame trench on the OLM means powerful shockwaves reflecting back up and rattling the tiles off.
I know going down the heat shield tile route is obvious (but why can't mega sized tiles be made? Like a cone sleeve for the nose, and semicircular panels.)
But as the 2 main issue is re-entry speed and vertical landing I am constantly confused they don't go down a more virgin galactic route.
Developing the stabilising wings to a more large winged and canard winged vehicle, letting the ship to access atmospheric drag at a much higher altitude as air brakes, so slowing reentry speed and lower temperatures. And then reentry into full earth atmosphere flying like a plane on a runway. Its simpler than the current mucking about to be caught on the OLM, and giving spacex more free slots to launch more ships.
I trust Elon and the passion him and his current team has to perfect Starship, but I worry about the huge variables that will keep it safe are reliable in the future. As he once said, you don't just throw away the plane after one trip but I hope they find a way to make those huge combustibles 99.999% safe.
Yes they can solve the problems! Cheaply & reliably are the tricky parts!
Instead of hitting the atmosphere hard at 100 km. Why not have a huge parachute 100m x 100m deployed ar 200 km. This could absorb half of the heat of re-entry.
You know that parachute will not work at 200km or even 100km?
Will it even survive the heat from re-entry? NO
Read some books.
@@siedliko who said anything about surviving the heat of re-entry ? Read the comment
@@MbeyaIsHome There is not enough air resistance at 200km for the parachute to work. For the parachute to work, you would have to open it at 60km. At that distance, you will start re-entry, as its about 62km.
You know, even if Elon doesn't make the heat shield reusable, he could use an ablative shield and just reapply it each time. The guy single handedly has lowered the cost to space by at least two orders of magnitude.
Yeah. SpaceX will do this anyway
What about allowing the metal to blend / bleed through the tiles while heating up ?
If anyone can figure it out SpaceX can.
I’ve always wondered why they don’t just save extra fuel so they can slow down with the engines and not have to ask the heat shields to do so much via friction.
Why doesn't space x use something like say thrusters on the side of starship to slow its reentry, thus reducing damage to the heat shilds?
Can Elon Musk get the heat shield tiles made like tongue and grove paneling so the tiles are more or less locked together, and they will not fall off any pegs or the thousands of studs that are being used today, as they build up the Starship vessels they set up the tiles as they increase the height of the Starship and the tiles will not drop of, as long as they give enough expansion gap for heat absorption. 🤔🌝🚀🚀🚀🚀
The problem is the speed the spacecraft is reentering. Slowing the speed is the problem with the spacecraft before re-entry.
Yeah, let's wait to see how they can solve this problem
How to speed up and slow down in the vacuum of space. There is nothing to push against? I guess that's where antigravity would be nice. So if you can create gravity by a spinning motion in space why wouldn't that work to slow a spacecraft down for reentry?
Why have space X not sprayed the heat material, David Adair from USN
For sure, the team has to work so hard, super hard to overcome the plasma problems during the entry. Anyway, they have dragon capsule, why not to use the same seal technology.
Can Dragon heatshield work on Starship made of Steel?
@@colonbina1 I got it. Then change it from steal to the dragon capsule materials.
The heatsheild is an easy fix, and the fix can be done in space. If in the unlikely event you lost one with my idea. Any tile replacement can be done even in space. It's so simple... how can they not see it.
They need a flexible heat shield that can be sprayed on.
I believe NASA had a tile repair kit for space shuttle at one time designed by Martin Marietta....but was never carried thru.
Each tile should have an internal net-like matrix that can be engaged by a screw or pop rivet, and positively anchored to the surface of the ship.
😮
It requires heat resistance on the small underside s of flaps and near engines. Also above the engine s.
I've thought that changing the profile of the Starship from a cylinder to a kind of rounded triangle ("tri-oval") with a flatter "front" side could improve the aerodynamics and heat load handling, without greatly complicating the handling of fuel tank pressures.
13 minutes to get from orbital 17,500mph to below 600mph, brutal!
I imagine they wind tunnel tested, thermal tested Starship to no end. Wonder if they considered ceramic bolts? Maybe with an internal high temp metal core for strength...Guess it's a trade off with weight, too.
In my opinion when they come out with Starship V2 I believe it's got a longer fuselage to hold more fuel for a reentry burn. We've been working on tiles for 40 plus years. Why not just slow it down so there's less friction (heat).
It can't slow down before entering earth ever here of gravity
@@user-ij9iq8go1r it could slow down but would require fuel (& thus more weight) to run the rocket engines
Not going to be able to test the heatshield unless they can control the craft in space.
I don't understand why the tiles are not tied together with a titanium interlock. They are locked to the ship, but they should have an titanium interlocking hooking type latch to secure them to one another. That way, if the tile unpins from the ship the surrounding tiles will keep it from falling off. Then after flight it should be easy to determine if any have unpinned by checking with lasers.
My guess is that uneven temperatures cause uneven expansion and contractions across tiles, so connections between them is not possible.
Make a replaceable, ablative shield installed on one side of each ring section, or that covers two ring sections- just keep manufacturing these modular sections and replace as needed... every flight, every third flight... whatever works...
A question I have not seen answered or even asked is _how much does starship physically stretch when lifted?_ If you want to crack tiles or have them delaminate from the hull - fit them closely at rest then pull them apart then push them into eachother. Have there been any reports of tiles 'pinging' off? Also vary the temperature from cyogenically cooled to baked in unfiltered sunlight in a short space of time if you want to maximise the opportunity of cracking. Possibly a solution to this is slightly larger, flanged tiles with chamfered edges, which have an upper and lower geometry that overlaps with dead-space between each 'joint'. This is of course, if the issue is expansion of the starship skin. The underlayer would need to be moved from individual tiles to a coating on the starship body, to protect against high-temperature but low-velocity gas seepage during re-entry. If arranged correctly, it would have the similar effect of dimples on a golf-ball and reduce drag (which may create it's own problems?) Questions...
Great questions 👍
Why not chain them together like a vest of chainmail ? Maybe even door hinge them for mobility with tile groove bolt protection.
Will it cause chain failure?
This thing will never land on Mars in its current configuration. The Martian atmosphere is too thin for the design to work.
Totally trajectory dependent
I think they should go smaller. Smaller tiles and more studs. Like higher resolution on a screen. That would make each tile more robust and harder to crack.
Additional weight. Furthermore each stud is a weak-point, so the body would need reinforcing. Elon might as well try it?
@@headshot6959 I am not so sure. Each stud would be smaller. More welds, yes, but maybe not more weight.
Each stud is not a weak point if we use an automated process to attach them. In computers we have billions of components, but it works because they are all built by an automated repeatable process.
@@erobwen Not sure how you can equate the complexity of a computer system with the structural rigidity of a stainless-steel rocket body. I'm guessing you're not an engineer, are you?
Great suggestion
Perhaps an electric type cooling heat shield system, bit like a fridge.
POINTED SCREWS WELDED TO STARSHIP WITH MAGNETIC NUTS IN EACH TILE THAT CENTER THEN SPIN INTO PLACE WITH MAGNETIC COUPLING TO ATTACHMENT TOOL.
Yes... add several tonnes of weight to have the tiles loosely held on with a method that will be vulnerable to airshear. 🤣 Don't quit your dayjob..
I have a problem with all this super fast re-entry stuff. Before it may have been less possible but since Starship carries fuel for the landing phase, and the possibility of a fuel station type deal in orbit, why not slow down a lot before re-entry, like Falcon does a re-entry burn, and that way it would have a massive difference in the temperatures it would have to handle. In fact they could get rid of the heatshield entirely as the steel can handle any temperature it would see with a slower landing.
I believe there is a process based on "skipping" off the atmosphere like a rock skipping on a pond. However this can require multiple additional orbits or at least additional distance in the near-orbital velocity period, and can take a long time.
Realize that even the SR-71's Mach 5 speed required special Inconel metal to protect against the 1500 degree C temperatures, and an orbital vehicle is coming down from Mach 25.
@@GaryBickford Yes, that is how they could do it up till now. Again, since Starship could potentially have half or full load of fuel by refueling in space a bit. That way they could shed most if not all lateral speed allowing them to enter the atmosphere without any heating at all really. They have full orientation capabilities with both the ship and booster.
Mach 25 is not easy!!!
The heat shield on dragon is better than bricks! Why, it is more flexible and denser.
Starship's original name needs to be restored. (BFR=Big F#cking Rocket)
The reentry of that thing is actually a controlled fall. Doing something economically valuable while being effective is laudable but taken too far it does not care about the atmosphere when it comes to penetrating it.
Why attach heat tiles directly to rocket surface? Why heatshield is not like mobile phone drop safe cover? Own entity installed from top front to back and that’s it. No need to make special tiles for barrel joins etc…
Heat shield needs to grow out of the stainless steel like scales on a lizard.
Great comparison
Lots of people don't understand that with the current fuel type for reentry rocket landing vehicles would cost massive extra weight to blast off at launch.
Reduction of cargo payloads during take off.
Then landing complexities and more😊 dangerous landing.
Cost more per kg to transport.
Over cost and over priced.
It seems like the answer should be obvious, Don't land Starship. Keep them in space. develop small landers, like the space plane to return people to ground. In the past very large ocean-going ships rarely if ever docked but sent away teams to shore in longboats, the same would work here...
You didnt get the main point of starship didnt you?😅
I agree. Leave them in space and refuel them to shuttle between moon orbit and Earth orbit. Perhaps Mars at some point.
It's a brilliant idea! Let Musk know right away...
Given the 30 years experience with heat shield tiles on the Space Shuttle where the problems were never entirely solved I continue to think this will be a lingering problem for Starship. They may be able to get the vehicle to the point of making a successful landing in the next several launches but I suspect there will be a matter of inspection and repair after each flight which would significantly slow down the launch cadence. Elon Musk may have visions of turning Starship around for another launch within a day, I think that is a ways off. Fast turnaround (or a very large number of vehicles) will be needed to accomplish orbital refueling, an operation that is essential to the success of the Artemis program. Everyone is starting to wake up to the reality that Lunar Starship won't be landing on the Moon in 2026.
Yo Elon! Where's my sammach😂
The shield should be apart of the ships belly the 🔥 and shouldn't be able to pop off..The 9 ETHER blk ether.. is a shield that harnesses the fire of the light..Like the crust of cooling Lava after an Eruption 🤌
Heat shield was one of the biggest technical problems for the space shuttle and now space X has just copied the space shuttle solution and they find it challenging... Where has all the talk about the fantastic stainless steel and liquid coolong etc. gone?????
Fish scales shape tiles. Not exactly the same, because it would be impossible maintaining. They can move on each other and they can cover the others fixing points. This needs two tipe of tiles.
Engineers have been trying to solve the issue of losing tiles for 30 years unsuccessfully. It has even cost lives. The problem is the wind speed not the heat. Why not put a thin layer of tungsten over the tiles as a wind shield? It will add some weight, but it will probably not increase cost because the constant tile maintenance won't be necessary. Also, the tiles won't need to be as thick. Tungsten is hard and strong. You only need enough thickness to shield the tiles. The re-entry heat can't harm tungsten. There will be a thin blanket of tungsten on the outside layer, tiles in the middle, and steel (rocket body) underneath.
Heat generation. (Thinkn) tungsten?
"Engineers have been trying to solve the issue of losing tiles for 30 years unsuccessfully"
I disagree. Boeing (the folks who cannot get their capsule into space) appears to have solved that problem. Look at the X-37. It has flown multiple missions and successfully returned to a safe landing. If Boeing can do it SpaceX ought to be able to also.
Sounds interesting.
Tungsten is crazy dense. The weight penalty would be crippling.
If the lives lost you speak of are from the shuttle....that was not a tile issue, that was a hole the size of a briefcase punched through the leading edge of the wing where the carbon carbon was the heat protection
Maybe the answer lies in advanced materials and 3D printing to create a monocoque attachment. F1 race cars have had single piece chassis for years. The weak points seem to be the numerous joins and gaps that emerge under duress. Eliminate the joins.
They could have gone down the carbon fibre route, they didn’t for cost reasons
@russc788, so you think a carbon fiber heat shield could withstand the 1700°C heat of reentry? Carbon fiber is essentially fibers embedded in a cured resin matrix. The carbon fiber might do okay but resin matrix would burn up. The only reason Virgin Galactic's vehicles do not get any where near orbital velocity and so are able to get away with not having thermal management systems as on orbital vehicles.
@@billmullins6833 No I don’t. I was replying to someone commenting on F1 manufacturing techniques. The booster might be able to get away with it, but I’ve not thought really about it.
Curious if anyone from spacex ever reads the comments for ideas …. There’s great ideas within them
😂😂😂
Ok you can’t compare Orion to starship. Orion is a capsule vs a full sized spaceship. Also Orion has a shingle like layering as you should vs starship is more the shuttle
👍👍👍
Slow down from 18000 to 5000 mph. 20 seconds of reverse burn time. This will have to happen.
♥️♥️♥️
Have a groove all around the edge. Grout between tiles with an ablative/heat-expanding material .
When it gets hot the stuff expands and locks the tiles together.
Starship Heat shield pins
WIMPY single anchor pin, MEDIOCRE
a single pole "point of failure"
More like mult triangular anchor pins
I keep on saying that the pins are the wrong shape on the outside end..
Heat shields need to use a Velcro type interlocking of the tiles to the surface of the ship.
If you don’t think they’ll be able to figure out the heat shield, then You better look at their landing rockets that no one said was possible.
The heat shield is nothing. Elon exaggerates. Everything is the hardest thing to Elon. Anything not done is hard because it’s not done!
All the world is a stage for the nouveau Nephilim and we are but watching shadows on the narrative cave wall.
Welcome to the last days Jesus warned us to watch & prepare for.
The shuttle program is proof that tiles are just too delicate and too hard to hold on to. You can't glue them on. You most likely can't use stainless steel spring pins to snap them on. If the temperature increases, migrate to the pins they will deform, and tiles will be shead like roofing shingles in a hurricane. Not to mention the leading and trailing edges of the control surfaces. Shuttle used carbon carbon for the high heating of the surfaces, and the foam strike is obvious proof that won't work. I have no doubt that if anyone can solve the issue of a rapidly reusable heat shield, Elon would pay your way through life.
Heat shields are the top
Dangerous catastrophe
waiting to happen
Columbia, challenger, anyone?
Neither the Columbia disaster nor the Challenger disaster involved loss of thermal control tiles. Challenger was a failure of a sealing o-ring on one of the SRBs. Columbia was the result of structural damage to one of the wings due to collision with debris from the ET. The Columbia crew were effectively dead by the time they reached orbit.
Why does it have to be heat shields?
Can't it be something like a flexible matting?
Just Bear with me. Think of the people working at blast furnaces.
They don't wear heat shields, they wear protective clothing, etc.
Just have multiple layers of the stuff, like multiple aprons
It's flexible & there are no gaps & it is easy to replace just 1 or 2 of them, or maybe none, as need be
What will they be made of or tied down with? I was king-hit 2 decades go so it does not work proper anymore,
and to make things worse, I got told to give up the booze, it used to always make me concentrate better;
just ask my teachers
❤❤❤❤+❤ Leonardo Javier Chile
why can't starship do a 180 degree turn before re-entry, slow down and just fall towards earth at a much slower speed,, that's my question
bc ... that costs fuel = less payload
@@subvind Fuel is weight as are heat shield tiles.
The gravitational pull towards the nucleus separating the earth's double torus OOrt cloud magnetosphere is tangential if you stop orbiting you fall straight towards the nucleus straight down.
@@GregoryJByrne yeah but ... weight of fuel > weight of tiles
What happened to the strategy of " best part is no part at all". Instead of carrying useless heatshields, carrying more fuel for 2nd stage to fire the engines backward, reduce the speed of entery to free fall like 1st stage.
This is a unique idea
@colonbina1 please convey my message to spaceX. It is very much doable with taller starship (for carrying more fuel), will work reliably for every condition, moon, mars, and beyond... can add the conventional legs for landing and other benefits, including very rapid reusibility, since methane burns a lot cleaner than kerosen.
Haven’t done the calculations but the fuel load to slow it down would very likely be much more than the tile weight. As you slow, you are going to be sinking into the earth’s atmosphere faster, so would need to use vertical thrust as well.
@rolandblock2530 thanks for the comment. That is doable. It only needs to reach 10 to 8000km/h before hitting the top layer of the atmosphere, same as booster entry. the fuel weight wasn't an issue here. Elon Musk has even mentioned to have taller 2nd stage with more fuel and less body mass.. by removing the tiles, the weight, the cost, maintenance, and potential failures (e.g, Space Shuttles) could all be eliminated!
If this resolution becomes successful, please don't forget to mention my name around.
Please, stop saying, "buckle up!"
Why not just reenter in small capsules? What is the starship supposed to bring down to earth?
il est surtout censé repartir
There are plenty of reasons why Starship doesn't use small capsules. The starship isn't designed specifically for space. Starship is meant to innovate the way we travel. Imagine you take off from Texas and land in Hong Kong 30 minutes later. Not to mention if we are going to start permanent settlements on other celestial bodies, we are going to need to move a lot of mass, and a tiny capsule just can't do that. Think of it as a Star Wars ship: Take off, land, refuel, and go again. That's the plan, and I hope that answers your question.
Great analysis
Slow the re-entry speed. Duh. Does it consume more fuel?yes.
Doesn't really work that way
Couldn't they just be 3d printing them on as they are being welded together and no need for pins or adhesive or anything else?
The tiles are the problem. and the capsule it’s not the same as the ship to conclude as I said before a blanket is the only solution, Elon will not be able to survive a Colombian event, he is not the government.
They selected a tile solution because any damage to a monolithic shield would require replacing the whole while damage to a tile requires replacing that tile.
They chose hexagonsl tiles to be certain there would be no long straight gaps offering the plasma a convenient place to cut into the structure.
They attach each tile with 3 pins because 3 pins attaching a hexagonal tile with 3 pins allows attaching the tile in one of three orientations, all of which are functionally identical.
Smaller tiles would put more attachment points per unit of area. That should result in stronger attachment. A small tile solution leaves a smaller vulnerable area when one tile breaks or comes off. It also presents a shorter - smaller - edge to plasma action after a single tile fails. That should reduct the likelihood for more adjacent tiles to be removed by the compressed plasma stream.
But the issues with the small tiles currently require the replacement of the whole ship…..
@@russc788
Do they? I don't recall seeing that.
The existing tiles may be too big to get the necessary number of attachment pins per unit area.
What issues?
[edit to add:
I finally caught your meaning. I apologize for missing the obvious.
Yes, switching the tile size on an already equipped ship will require replacing them all. However, if the switch is made between articles on the assembly line, the work will simply be that which is required by change in size, larger or smaller.]
But
Smaller tiles = more attachment pins.
More attachment pins = more vehicle MASS.
More vehicle mass = LESS payload.
Get it?
@@billmullins6833
Sure, I get that.
We're talking about a vehicle with a dry mass of 100,000 kg with a payload of 100,000 kg which will have 1,200,000 kg of fuel added.
How much mass in pins are we talking about? Even if we're adding 1,000 kg of mounting pins, we're talking about the dry mass going up to 101,000 kg and payload being reduced to 99,000 kg, assuming no other changes.
Improved engines will give back that 1,000 kg by getting a relatively insignificant thrust increase from each of the first stage's 33 engines as engine development continues...
Go with the smaller tiles and eat the increased dry mass.
@@frankmcgowan9457 The last ship exploded on re entry….
How about not using idiots to instsll tiles .
wrap 2 thirds in 4 sections, minimal attachment.....pressure formed in a gigantic press
If you understood the process to fabricate a heat shield tile you would not be so confident.
How come these rocket engineers can't figure out a way to slow down the Starship from MACH 25 to MACH 1 before reentry?? Isn't that what they do with the Falcon 9 boosters during reentry?? If they didn't have the reentry burns on Falcon 9 boosters they would pretty much get ripped apart when they hit the thicker atmosphere right??
Most likely fuel. Maybe with the upcoming refueling tactics this may be something we see.
Because Falcon 9 does not go to LEO, it lifts the top unit to the point it makes it to LEO on its own engine.
Pee on it.😊
The heatsheild is an easy fix, and the fix can be done in space. If in the unlikely event you lost one with my idea. Any tile replacement can be done even in space. It's so simple... how can they not see it.