If the holes in Christianity haven’t been filled in after nearly two thousand years of continuous study by countless Christian scholars, I don’t think they’ll ever be filled.
True! But they are desperately trying, and will tirelessly continue to do so. Predictably, whatever hodge podge their fixers come up with will be eagerly received.
My thoughts are if Christ fulfilled the end of sin then why did the next generation still sin?? It s never stop…and why is there still death if he conquered it??
The biggest glaring hole in Christianity is the most obvious one, but because it's the most obvious it's usually never discussed. Christ himself, that is, the Messiah. There's no conceivable way Jesus was the Messiah, unless you contort the text of the Old Testament, which the New Testament and Christians do do, or you redefine the notion of what the Messiah was supposed to be, a military king who would bring global peace through conquest, into the exact opposite of what a Messiah is. The fundamental problem with Christianity is that Christ was not actually the Christ, and cannot be.
Christ didn’t end sin, but defeated it in the sense that he did not commit any sin, and provided away in which those who believe in him could be made sinless. Christ defeated death in the sense that he came back to life and provided away in which those who believe in him could live even though they die. In this way, even though sin and death still exist, they have lost their sting.
@@Jay-o1s7p Seeing how things are really done,. The corruption and messed up junk behind the scenes. How people are mistreated, and used. Realizing that the people who are supposed to be spiritual and moral guides for others, are as bad, or worse, than the very people they talk down to and condemn. Things like the financial mishandling that were mentioned in the video. Seeing that a church is just a social club with made up rules. I'm not saying all fit any, or all of those, but I know from experience that some do. Realizing that, and getting taken for a ride by them is a rude awakening.
Another fantastic conversation! Autism runs in my family. My mom. Two of my kids. My brother is severely autistic and I am his legal guardian. I’m also on the board of directors of the organization that takes care of him and thousands of others with developmental disabilities. I’m so very happy you were able to find your way out, Ed. I lost my biological father a few years ago and my step father over 20 years ago. I wish I had the same desire to see mine again the way you wanted to see yours. Neither of their deaths inspired that kind of longing in me. I’m glad that you had the kind of dad that would make you want to see him again so badly. I like to believe I have done that for my kids. And I really feel you on the divorce thing. I truly wanted my marriage to last forever. But during one of our couples counseling sessions, she said “you are the only one trying to keep this family together.” That hit me like a ton of bricks. But it also woke me up. I am finally divorced and truly am the happiest I have ever been in my entire life. Best to you and yours. And best to you, Tim, for having these incredible conversations.
The part where he speaks about not caring about LGBTQ and not hating others reminds me of when I left religion. The whole hating the Left ,“They are coming after us and were in war” hating other religions and hating gays to the point in taking there rights away on top of the “You’re a sinner” ,repenting constantly was a big load off my back. I live day by day now knowing we live amongst people with different beliefs, sexual preferences etc. and accepting that as long as no one hurts no one is relaxing.. There will always be different people and if you’re going to invest your whole life trying to change something that can’t be changed is going to be a frustrating and unhappy life.
That moment one day when you suddenly say to yourself, What if the Bible isn't God's Word? And... What if none of this is true? What if the reason why prayers aren't answered and the sick aren't healed is because none of this is true? What if all these years my prayers have just been me talking to myself? What if the reason why Jesus hasn't returned is that he died two thousand years ago and he's not coming back? If believing in Jesus' message was so critically important why didn't Jesus write it down for us? Why did he leave it to others to try to remember what he said? And then you can't tell anyone because your wife and all your friends are Christians.
EXACTLY where I am, thank God my husband is right there with me, and our kids are still young, so they've not been too deeply indoctrinated. We left church 3 years ago, thank God. These questions are for real!
To one of those questions was that a Lot was never included in the Bible to begin with while around 70 books were edited out. As for the whole coming back from what people have been reporting for decades of seeing Jesus has turned out to be masquerading spirits.
I recently told someone that I was no longer a Christian. They told me I must not have a had the holy spirit because I would not have ever strayed away from the faith. I laughed and told him. You dont even know me to know what I went through in my ex Christian faith. Smh. Have anyone else been told that before?
They don't tell you that for you, they tell you that for them. It is a thought-stopper to help them not have to think about the implications of someone who truly believed in the past leaving.
I always figured that that made it into the Bible as a way to help people cope with persecution during the very early days of Christianity whenever they as a community ran into trouble with Roman authorities. Of course thats being generous. It may also be that its just a typical psychological ploy.
I so agree with Ed. A relationship with family and friends is so very much more important than a win in the theist/atheist debate. Naturally, some people will not allow for a relationship. But if one can be negotiated, then the parties involved have gold. (And yes. Hang in there Tim).
I'll have to think about the recommendation not to go it alone. I grew up in a Pentecostal minister's home, became a minister myself, and at age 40 in a doctoral program in New Testament realized the Bible was just a bunch of humans talking. At age 62 I still struggle with anger and have largely withdrawn from friends and family as a coping mechanism. Ed's story was riveting to me, since it is similar to mine. There are differences, but it's similar. I've thought about getting counselling before at moments especially when I am tempted to abandon my relationship with my family, but I have always talked myself out of getting counseling. Being angry and withdrawn is not the best way to live, so I'll have to ponder Ed's recommendation at the end.
Having someone you trust that is willing to listen to your frustration or confusion and possibly help you gain better ways to deal can really lighten a lot of heavy emotional negative stuff.
With the 4-5000 different denominations I don’t know what to think or believe anymore. Al the rules & expectations. At times I find myself believing in preterism.
@@911dbaines I don't go by denominations any more. It's clear to me from the Bible that Jesus thought his disciples would be alive when he returned, and Paul thought he would be alive when Jesus returned. Neither expectation was fulfilled because they were both wrong. Both were apocalyptic doomsdayers. These days we call people like that cult leaders. And just like all religious predictions of the end of the world, their predictions came and went, while history marched on.
It is amazing how alike are these experiences of de-conversion for so many people. I had kind of this same experience. Went to Seminary for ministry and couldn't reconcile my belief with my intellect. Started reading Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and Carl Sagan, etc. Needless to say, my worldview was totally changed. I do value a lot of things from my Christian experience, like good friends I had regardless of religion. But all the religious superstition is out the door. And I'm happy it is.
@@HarmonicAtheist The existence and continued survival of Jerusalem proves the existence of God. "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem" (Zechariah 12:2, KJV). Even so, come, Lord Jesus! Establish the Kingdom in Jerusalem and save the world from the tyranny of Democracy (Daniel 7:7, KJV)!
As a teen I went to church mainly because i was looking for acceptance and love. Well, I was looking in the wrong place. I have ADHD and I guess I am hard to love to many people, but I thought I would find love there because that's what Christianity is supposed to be about. I wasn't welcome there now that I look back. I stuck it out too long, for decades, but now I'm so glad I got free.
Awww. I also have adhd, but I love myself from the inside out and really don’t need people’s love honestly. Even though I get the same treatment from people, I don’t go seeking their love. I’ve been left by EVERY who knows me, but I’m like oh. Oh well. I think it’s what’s saved me from a lot of pain and being used and abused.
@@liamhickey359 why are you so sure? I have it and for years I denied it. What the heck is it if not adhd? Dr. Gabor Mate in his new book says its the mind's reaction to childhood trauma. In my seventy years of experience, it makes perfect sense.
@@moonectar check out how many studies have been conducted. The American Psychiatry Association have been too much under the influence of big pharma for the last 50 years. Their standards are so lax it's a joke. Pharma fund much of the " studies" that the APA rubber stamp by committee. The oversight and lack of curiosity around these studies points to what is in the end corruption. Top people in the APA sit on pharma boards. There 15 million people on anti depressants in Britain. Ten fold what it was 20 years ago. ? .How many kids are being prescribed adderall and ritalin that do not need . To paraphrase: there is not and epidemic of mental illness there is an epidemic of psychiatrists and psychologists ( and pharma profiting off the pills mills they've created). In the last couple of years I hear adults in bars and coffee shops talking about their adhd diagnosis. This is marketing . It is not mental illness.
I found his channel not too long ago, and said to myself, he would be a good interview for Tim, then to see this weeks later is a super treat! Awesome interview!!
I'm so glad you's 2 great guys have finally been able to get together for more reasons than one but mostly because Tim is going through a very difficult time and I worry about him as if he was my own son...so he needs lots of love and support. Anyhow I love listening to Ed on his channel too...he has great content and very informative. I remember when you both got started on UA-cam and I've been following both of you since then. I'm so proud of you and for the courage you both have...it takes a lot of balls to do what you're doing. I know your loss over your Dad Ed because I had 2 adult kids (34 & 36 yrs old) that have passed away over the last few years and they passed away only a year apart... It's been really hard knowing I'll never see them again. 💔😢 and I'm sorry about your Dad Ed.💔😢 Dungeons & Dragons & Harry Potter was all about the Satanic Panic when Christian parents thought demonic 👿 entities would fly out of the D&D game and Potter books to possess their kid's! Yup there were demons flying around everywhere and under every rock (delusions). Both of my sons played D&D for years and they never worshiped Satan, never drank blood, and never ate babies. Lol. I was unfortunately in the Assemblies of God too so I can totally relate to Ed. Every day I would question my salvation and had such fear of hell to the point of insanity! So I'd go up for altar calls almost every Sunday (just in case). Love ya both and thanks for all you both do!❣️❣️
As the guest spoke it was easy to draw the conclusion that any full dependency on a person or group is detrimental to the individual. This includes church, cults, marriages, and sometimes actual communities. My heart goes out to those in a relationship with an imbalance of power where intimidation by guilt, fear and shame keep them bound to an unhealthy lifestyle. Maintaining friendships outside the bubble ensures the possibility to escape with support.
Great interview-there has to be more like him going through this, being joined at the hip with religion because of employment/financial circumstances. Excellent interview Tim. Your videos feel like they are 15 minutes long, I’m always surprised when the end comes. 😊 I’m a former Christian, Bible teacher, preacher and youth pastor but I wasn’t in an employment situation. I’ve been an atheist for over 3 years. I’ll definitely be subscribing to Ed’s channel.
There is only LOVE, in the end. Glad you got out of the cult but, to me, we are all all the creative energy of Source, & given free will. Believe what you want, just be kind, caring & Forgiving.
What an interesting interview. I was quite engrossed throughout. Ed Raby imparted many wise and valuable insights. I’m “twerking on the fence” (to use a phrase of another entertainment u-tuber I watch) between belief and de-conversion. Two things Ed said were quite penetrating to me. First, don’t casually or flippantly assume you can de-convert without serious support or even therapy. His statement about contemplating the concept of no afterlife, of eternal non-existence after death was very impactful. Second, I thought his entire discussion of his deep love for his family was not only powerful, it was damn near poetic! I was moved. The thing he said that drove home this point was he would, by far, much rather maintain and retain his family, with its deep bonds of love, than be right. How wise?! He sounded like a sage. I wish Ed well, as I do you, too, Tim.
It's always interesting to me how many people claim their churches were very loving and accepting and weren't abusive at all... but also say they had to constantly confess their sins and always felt guilty and were taught there was nothing inherently good about themselves, all their goodness came from god. Ummmmmm.... that's abuse. A religious leader who consistently grifts the congregation and lies... is abusive. And it's a fundamental part of a lot of the worst cults. There HAS to be something wrong with you - so you keep having to run to them to get "fixed".
Those who already feel so much guilt are going to have a great time when they end up on the other side again just to have that life review to feel even more guilty then get stuck with an even shittier life the next time around. The cherry on top is that a lot of life and these "sins" are part of the script/contract everyone gets stuck with.
Great interview! Ed finding out about his Autism late in life, is so similar to my husband, finally diagnosed at age 48! And we’re happily deconverted completely
I’m very grateful for your channel. It’s enlightening to hear all the similarities and differences from your guests’ personal stories and my own deconstruction journey. Keep up the great work
Omgoodness this story breaks my heart man. I too was that Christian who gave everything to my Church and to my faith in god and got little to nothing back in the end. I’m so glad I deconstructed and I’m glad you both got out alive from organized religion. Thanks for sharing your stories.
I was in the Assemblies of God for decades and can relate 100% to everything Ed went through, including the marriage part. Some bridges cannot be rebuilt and some things cannot be unsaid. Many Christians don’t understand that. Awesome interview!
I probably say this for every interview, but Ed's life/experience is beyond words for me. Although I didn't go to seminary (cemetary) school, never was a leader in a church, never a preacher or pastor and all of that so called higher-godly heady stuff, I could relate to every word that he spoke. As he said, about holding on with the "hope" he would see his father again, I associated with a female friend for too many years because she put me in the mind of my mother who I loved and lost. The loneliness, having to be strong for everyone else, but no one was strong for me (they didn't think I needed it) showed me how Christianity just dumbs down and blinds a person to humanity and how out of touch with reality they are. I could go on and on, but this is such a relatable interview, I had to stop and post a comment. Thank you so much!
Ed, I really appreciate your comments at the end of the video. I have deconverted from Christianity and wish that someone would have told me that it is better to build relationships than to be right. If someone had told me this earlier, I believe it would have been easier for me and my family as I transitioned out of faith.
I used to consider myself a 'sensible Christian'. That is, I accepted evolution as an undeniable fact; and regarded the Eden story as some kind of metaphor for the flip side of mankind's increasing intelligence...the development of a moral conscience and a recognition of 'right and wrong'. But of course it can't be a metaphor, because that evolutionary process contains no element that could be considered 'original sin'...it's an entirely natural and inevitable process. To introduce original sin, you'd have to believe that God actually had a conversation with some unknown Homo erectus or Homo habilis which involved some specific disobedience, which is also unknown. The whole idea is absurd. And without original sin there is absolutely no need for some self-appointed redeemer of and saviour from that sin. Therefore Christ was either deluded, was misrepresented...or is entirely fictitious. A point I've never seen raised anywhere is that as a species we're not even a discrete organism, we're a symbiant. So we can hardly claim to be specially created. We live in symbiosis with billions of our most distant ancestors working away in our gut, digesting all the food we give them every day. We don't digest that, we merely mash it up for them to digest; and we'd be dead within a couple of weeks if they didn't.
This is an incredible story. I can relate to some of the questioning he went through (although I was never a pastor)… that moment of “this isn’t real” really bright back memories.
😀Omg! I have never, in my life heard a White person talk about " Tarrying" and "Holiness"! I grew up in a Pentecostal church like that. Very good talk! Anyway, thanks so much for sharing.
Terrific interview. I laughed at all the Pentecostal teachings reviewed as that’s the church I was in for forty years. A purity culture marriage too- I get what you speak of completely! I’ve listed to Ed on his own channel often- really helpful stuff- but absolutely loved this long interview. And the insights about how in Pentecostalism, maturity is seen by how many evidences you have of hearing God and gifts, but evangelicalism (where I still am now)- how many systematic theologies, heavy books by reformers and commentaries you read. Exactly right! I’ve experienced both and led in both.
Unfortunately, Western Christianity has produced more atheist than just about anything else. I struggled with my faith for over 30 years, perhaps just as many reading this have. For me, I didn't arrive at a place of believing the proposition of "a creator" to be false, I arrived at a place of believing the specific theology and doctrines I had been taught were false. I believe God is love..... I have ALWAYS felt that intuitively..... the Western Christianity version of God I was exposed to was anything but love... this was the problem. Then I discovered an uncorrupted narrative, one that embraces the mystery that is existence and the mystery that is God. The one common denominator for every human is that we all desire love. At our core we desire to be loved and to love someone. So at our core we all actually are desiring God, because God is love. We may not know how to give love properly or how to receive love properly or what love should actually even look like.... but we ALL do ultimately desire it. The worst among us, desire love, and thereby are truly desiring God. So, whatever you beliefs may be just remember...... ALL of life is a mystery, embrace the mystery, while endeavoring to live in the flow of love, because ultimately, I believe, "all shall be well, all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well". Shalom
Excellent talk! And wow! The challenges you went through, Mr. Raby. It's gob stopping to someone like me, who never had to go through that. Then to come out of it with so much wisdom and patience. Even the trials of my coming out as gay in the early 70s is nothing by comparison. I didn't have a wife and children to make it so much more complex. My hat's off to you. And love your channel content. And much thanks to you as well, Harmonic Atheist. You give a flawless interview.
Was a great interview. I could so relate to the experience of studying for the ministry and finding the Christian answers to tough (or even simple) questions being horrible.
Just found this channel, and I'm loving it. I'm just getting comfortable with calling myself "doconverted" rather than just "deconstructed". Gonna check The Secular Therapy Project as well and unpack some stuff. But hearing these interviews is really helpful for me as well, so thank you very much.
I was diagnosed with Autism 3 years ago. I’m 47. Now everything makes sense looking back. Now I understand why all the abstract and far fetched stuff in the Bible never really made sense to me.
When he mentioned the value in family, it takes me back to not only my years of atheism now, but also the division between my father and his new immediate family due to issues involving money. While it's of notice however, his involvement in the church since his youth of indoctrination his parents were also heavily has definitely hurt the guy's pockets--even to points of staying with family. Where it'll always serve on my end as failure being futile within any religion, was he told me with that personal phase of confidence, his career path in the ministry and eventual success toward being a pastor. So I couldn't help but meet Ed halfway there when mention also of having some sort of reason for that second hand to assist you financially also. Because by far have I even heard stories of what titles and offering can do, in terms of the cause and negative effects in a multitude of ways in lives.
Trust me, @HA, I have been there. Like you are saying at 1:40:30, I ended a long-term relationship (my first deep one with my college sweetheart) after I realized that I no longer believed. And, we tried the counseling, but I was a fool to go to a Christian Counselor. Worst decision that I made there; maybe, we'd be together today -- if I didn't decide to go to someone who would always see it through "her lenses" and through the viewpoint of Christianity. So, our relationship and communication got even worse and more tense, when going to a "Christian Counselor" (who was supposed to be so biblical and able to see both sides), because I (somehow) became the villain and the one who was the one sinning. And, get this -- all the stupid books they gave me to read (like the "Wounded Heart" or some other Christian work) were so child-like and so ridiculous -- with a prayer at the end of every chapter. And, basically, the whole book was just 1) realize you are a sinner, 2) accept Jesus into your heart, and 3) God will heal you and anything else. Well, it sure had no real psychological relevance to our situation and did not help to resolve or provide assistance to the wounds that she had from childhood. So, sometimes, it's better to leave the situation and move on; or, that's what I found through a very hard break-up and gut-wrenching decision to end the relationship with my first-love. All the prayers in the world, didn't make our relationship get fixed up through some magical "words spoken to the winds".
Many have a "repeat after me" theology and source of information who simply repeat what they have heard without studying for themselves. All scripture must be interpreted in light of its historical and literary context. Any text must be interpreted in the same way it was interpreted when it was written. Nobody would think of interpreting an ancient text in the same way as people do today. That is something I learned in my English class in my junior year in a public high school.
I can identify with this. I was doing my theology degree while attending a Pentecostal church and the pastors kept making comments like , glad I never went to bible college because it would mean that they would not be as spiritual,
“You’re fallen, broken, unworthy, and just the worst - I love you anyway, but don’t expect anyone else to!” - God’s attempt at inducing Stockholm Syndrome on a global level…
Cool.. I just saw some of Eds videos last week for the first time. Was thinking he'd be a good interview for Tim... and here it is. I watched his story on his channel. This should be good.
One of the best interviews. I can relate to this one especially growing up Assembly of God. The machine grids you up and spits you out. The internet killed jesus.
If I understand the Pentecostal theology correctly, the Arminian mentality [you are not "permanently" saved, but have to stay holy, in opposition to the Calvinist thought, of "once saved, always saved"], is a constant looking over your shoulder and wanting to "make sure I'll make it,'' meaning I'll be taken up in the Rapture with the rest, as long as I stay holy, and don't sin, but if I do, I have to confess the sin, each and every time, immediately.
Growing up I attended a fairly pentecostal church. I never questioned the core tenants of the religion, but the truth claims made about the more extreme beliefs had me doubting. But, not at first. I asked lots of questions, but my questions never came from a place of skepticism. My questions came from a place of belief and a desire for clarity. Asking questions about the more extreme beliefs of pentecostal faith taught me how to ask questions and that asking questions wouldn't bring god's wrath down on me. After the truth claims of the extreme stuff broke down I had a pretty reasonable grip on how to ask questions. And so, my questions continued toward the less extreme claims and eventually the core claims. I often wonder if I'd have ever walked away from religion had I been brought up in a tamer faith.
Towards the end he said that you can't leave on your own, that there is grieving. For me, I was simply done once I saw through it. When the blinders came off (or VR goggles) suddenly here is this big wonderful world full of music, dance, creativity, languages, hobbies, all mine to explore and no sky being pissed at me, and no invisible minions trying to trick me. I did do a lot of processing of the change in my dreams at night, and by writing out my journey and thoughts, but I wouldn't say there was any grieving, more of a relief. That seems odd given my previous devotion, but I felt burned by the fact I'd been in a cult for decades, so no love lost for me.
As a fellow person on the autism spectrum, I KNEW there was something about the way you seem to think, speak, and rationalize out your arguments that felt familiar. :)
at 1:18 it sounds more like United Church of Christ than Church of Christ. Also sounds like a Community Church set up. Excellent story about your journey, thanks!
As a man who grew up in the AoG church with a Pentecostal mother, I recognize and sympathize with the struggle he underwent. Thank goodness for Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth" and a skeptical reading of the Bible in my late teens that woke ny ass up.
If the holes in Christianity haven’t been filled in after nearly two thousand years of continuous study by countless Christian scholars, I don’t think they’ll ever be filled.
True! But they are desperately trying, and will tirelessly continue to do so. Predictably, whatever hodge podge their fixers come up with will be eagerly received.
My thoughts are if Christ fulfilled the end of sin then why did the next generation still sin?? It s never stop…and why is there still death if he conquered it??
The biggest glaring hole in Christianity is the most obvious one, but because it's the most obvious it's usually never discussed.
Christ himself, that is, the Messiah. There's no conceivable way Jesus was the Messiah, unless you contort the text of the Old Testament, which the New Testament and Christians do do, or you redefine the notion of what the Messiah was supposed to be, a military king who would bring global peace through conquest, into the exact opposite of what a Messiah is.
The fundamental problem with Christianity is that Christ was not actually the Christ, and cannot be.
Christ didn’t end sin, but defeated it in the sense that he did not commit any sin, and provided away in which those who believe in him could be made sinless. Christ defeated death in the sense that he came back to life and provided away in which those who believe in him could live even though they die. In this way, even though sin and death still exist, they have lost their sting.
@@bjn3232academic citations and empirical research ? Or just wishful thinking? Why does a supposedly all powerful god need defending?
Working in the church, and seeing behind the curtains has been a big part of a good number of us leaving.
Thank you.
As some like to say "as above so below" and the rot always seeps through to the surface for all to see.
It's one of the oldest Cons.
Like what, if I may ask?
@@Jay-o1s7p Seeing how things are really done,. The corruption and messed up junk behind the scenes. How people are mistreated, and used. Realizing that the people who are supposed to be spiritual and moral guides for others, are as bad, or worse, than the very people they talk down to and condemn. Things like the financial mishandling that were mentioned in the video. Seeing that a church is just a social club with made up rules. I'm not saying all fit any, or all of those, but I know from experience that some do. Realizing that, and getting taken for a ride by them is a rude awakening.
I glad to see day by day more people deconverted and tell the truth about their believe .( Christian, Muslim,...)
We speak English... And we delivery.
@@blynkers1411 What does that even mean?
@@scottdavis3571 "I glad to see day by day more people deconverted and tell the truth about their believe"
Zo vonny! Make me laff. XD
Calm yourself. 🙄
@@blynkers1411 Don't be mad because you most probably wasted your time and money.
@@scottdavis3571 😆
Another fantastic conversation!
Autism runs in my family. My mom. Two of my kids. My brother is severely autistic and I am his legal guardian. I’m also on the board of directors of the organization that takes care of him and thousands of others with developmental disabilities. I’m so very happy you were able to find your way out, Ed.
I lost my biological father a few years ago and my step father over 20 years ago. I wish I had the same desire to see mine again the way you wanted to see yours. Neither of their deaths inspired that kind of longing in me. I’m glad that you had the kind of dad that would make you want to see him again so badly. I like to believe I have done that for my kids.
And I really feel you on the divorce thing. I truly wanted my marriage to last forever. But during one of our couples counseling sessions, she said “you are the only one trying to keep this family together.” That hit me like a ton of bricks. But it also woke me up.
I am finally divorced and truly am the happiest I have ever been in my entire life.
Best to you and yours.
And best to you, Tim, for having these incredible conversations.
The part where he speaks about not caring about LGBTQ and not hating others reminds me of when I left religion. The whole hating the Left ,“They are coming after us and were in war” hating other religions and hating gays to the point in taking there rights away on top of the “You’re a sinner” ,repenting constantly was a big load off my back. I live day by day now knowing we live amongst people with different beliefs, sexual preferences etc. and accepting that as long as no one hurts no one is relaxing.. There will always be different people and if you’re going to invest your whole life trying to change something that can’t be changed is going to be a frustrating and unhappy life.
That moment one day when you suddenly say to yourself, What if the Bible isn't God's Word? And...
What if none of this is true?
What if the reason why prayers aren't answered and the sick aren't healed is because none of this is true?
What if all these years my prayers have just been me talking to myself?
What if the reason why Jesus hasn't returned is that he died two thousand years ago and he's not coming back?
If believing in Jesus' message was so critically important why didn't Jesus write it down for us? Why did he leave it to others to try to remember what he said?
And then you can't tell anyone because your wife and all your friends are Christians.
Totally can relate, it can be lonely to not have anyone you can talk to.
EXACTLY where I am, thank God my husband is right there with me, and our kids are still young, so they've not been too deeply indoctrinated. We left church 3 years ago, thank God. These questions are for real!
To one of those questions was that a Lot was never included in the Bible to begin with while around 70 books were edited out. As for the whole coming back from what people have been reporting for decades of seeing Jesus has turned out to be masquerading spirits.
@@MrKillswitch88 No. It's turned out to be lies, grifting or hallucinations.
Exactly!
I am sorry for the pain you both have suffered. Love, peace, and healing to you. ❤
2 Cor. 4:4. .
I recently told someone that I was no longer a Christian. They told me I must not have a had the holy spirit because I would not have ever strayed away from the faith. I laughed and told him. You dont even know me to know what I went through in my ex Christian faith. Smh. Have anyone else been told that before?
All the time.
They don't tell you that for you, they tell you that for them. It is a thought-stopper to help them not have to think about the implications of someone who truly believed in the past leaving.
I always figured that that made it into the Bible as a way to help people cope with persecution during the very early days of Christianity whenever they as a community ran into trouble with Roman authorities. Of course thats being generous. It may also be that its just a typical psychological ploy.
@@MusicalNotes1986 The point where I realized that the Jewish/Christian God definitely wasn't real did it for me.
well I'm sorry to say they have a point
I so agree with Ed. A relationship with family and friends is so very much more important than a win in the theist/atheist debate. Naturally, some people will not allow for a relationship. But if one can be negotiated, then the parties involved have gold. (And yes. Hang in there Tim).
I would just like to thank god for the internet because it is helping a lot of people to see reason and walk away from religion
I too often thank Fake God.
@@MC-br1gk God isn't fake, it's this organized religion with all it's dogma that is fake!
The internet - where religions go to die.
Fool.
Heaven or Hell. The simple choice for simple people. Just like graduation day for a successful life. Pick one.
Empathy for both of you, Tim and Ed. Condolences for Ed on the loss of his father, and condolences for Tim on the loss of his marriage.
I'll have to think about the recommendation not to go it alone. I grew up in a Pentecostal minister's home, became a minister myself, and at age 40 in a doctoral program in New Testament realized the Bible was just a bunch of humans talking. At age 62 I still struggle with anger and have largely withdrawn from friends and family as a coping mechanism. Ed's story was riveting to me, since it is similar to mine. There are differences, but it's similar. I've thought about getting counselling before at moments especially when I am tempted to abandon my relationship with my family, but I have always talked myself out of getting counseling. Being angry and withdrawn is not the best way to live, so I'll have to ponder Ed's recommendation at the end.
Having someone you trust that is willing to listen to your frustration or confusion and possibly help you gain better ways to deal
can really lighten a lot of heavy emotional negative stuff.
Good luck
Trust me getting a good secular counselor is gold. You need to talk about this. Peace.
With the 4-5000 different denominations I don’t know what to think or believe anymore. Al the rules & expectations. At times I find myself believing in preterism.
@@911dbaines I don't go by denominations any more. It's clear to me from the Bible that Jesus thought his disciples would be alive when he returned, and Paul thought he would be alive when Jesus returned. Neither expectation was fulfilled because they were both wrong. Both were apocalyptic doomsdayers. These days we call people like that cult leaders. And just like all religious predictions of the end of the world, their predictions came and went, while history marched on.
Woo! Perfect timing. I have a few hours left in my shift. thanks, Tim!
Wow this is excellent info and what a moving story. So many parallels for my deconstruction! Already followed Ed, thanks for having him on the show!
Awesome interview 🎉 hope things going better for you and your kids, buddy.
I found Ed just over a month ago and enjoy his channel and his level-headed wisdom. Thanks for getting a chance to showcase him to your community.
It is amazing how alike are these experiences of de-conversion for so many people. I had kind of this same experience. Went to Seminary for ministry and couldn't reconcile my belief with my intellect. Started reading Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and Carl Sagan, etc. Needless to say, my worldview was totally changed. I do value a lot of things from my Christian experience, like good friends I had regardless of religion. But all the religious superstition is out the door. And I'm happy it is.
I was raised a JW and it took years not think in a Satan running the world mentality. It's crazy when you realize it's all a fairytale.
Thanks Tim for the interview. I was a great experience I would gladly repeat.
Likewise!!!
@@HarmonicAtheist The existence and continued survival of Jerusalem proves the existence of God. "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem" (Zechariah 12:2, KJV). Even so, come, Lord Jesus! Establish the Kingdom in Jerusalem and save the world from the tyranny of Democracy (Daniel 7:7, KJV)!
Thanks for sharing Ed & Tim
I recommend you don't take on anymore leadership positions.
@davidlafleche1142 - how so?
As a teen I went to church mainly because i was looking for acceptance and love. Well, I was looking in the wrong place. I have ADHD and I guess I am hard to love to many people, but I thought I would find love there because that's what Christianity is supposed to be about. I wasn't welcome there now that I look back. I stuck it out too long, for decades, but now I'm so glad I got free.
I also have adhd and have similar experiences.
Awww. I also have adhd, but I love myself from the inside out and really don’t need people’s love honestly. Even though I get the same treatment from people, I don’t go seeking their love. I’ve been left by EVERY who knows me, but I’m like oh. Oh well. I think it’s what’s saved me from a lot of pain and being used and abused.
Nobody has adhd.
@@liamhickey359 why are you so sure? I have it and for years I denied it. What the heck is it if not adhd? Dr. Gabor Mate in his new book says its the mind's reaction to childhood trauma. In my seventy years of experience, it makes perfect sense.
@@moonectar check out how many studies have been conducted. The American Psychiatry Association have been too much under the influence of big pharma for the last 50 years. Their standards are so lax it's a joke. Pharma fund much of the " studies" that the APA rubber stamp by committee. The oversight and lack of curiosity around these studies points to what is in the end corruption. Top people in the APA sit on pharma boards. There 15 million people on anti depressants in Britain. Ten fold what it was 20 years ago. ? .How many kids are being prescribed adderall and ritalin that do not need . To paraphrase: there is not and epidemic of mental illness there is an epidemic of psychiatrists and psychologists ( and pharma profiting off the pills mills they've created). In the last couple of years I hear adults in bars and coffee shops talking about their adhd diagnosis. This is marketing . It is not mental illness.
Oh wow. I'm looking forward to this! I follow his channel. Thanks Tim.
Not only christianity. Every religion is only stories
Why only Gods interact in past, Not in present?
Zack Lee!
I think 👽 destroyed god communication devices.
The only religion that you can still interact is Sanatana Dharma.
@@sillymesilly lynching people by name of caste?
Really enjoyed this interview. Good on the therapist that gave him that financial break.
I found his channel not too long ago, and said to myself, he would be a good interview for Tim, then to see this weeks later is a super treat! Awesome interview!!
Very helpful for me to hear this. Thank you so much both of you. Ed is so very nice.
I'm so glad you's 2 great guys have finally been able to get together for more reasons than one but mostly because Tim is going through a very difficult time and I worry about him as if he was my own son...so he needs lots of love and support. Anyhow I love listening to Ed on his channel too...he has great content and very informative. I remember when you both got started on UA-cam and I've been following both of you since then. I'm so proud of you and for the courage you both have...it takes a lot of balls to do what you're doing. I know your loss over your Dad Ed because I had 2 adult kids (34 & 36 yrs old) that have passed away over the last few years and they passed away only a year apart... It's been really hard knowing I'll never see them again. 💔😢 and I'm sorry about your Dad Ed.💔😢 Dungeons & Dragons & Harry Potter was all about the Satanic Panic when Christian parents thought demonic 👿 entities would fly out of the D&D game and Potter books to possess their kid's! Yup there were demons flying around everywhere and under every rock (delusions). Both of my sons played D&D for years and they never worshiped Satan, never drank blood, and never ate babies. Lol. I was unfortunately in the Assemblies of God too so I can totally relate to Ed. Every day I would question my salvation and had such fear of hell to the point of insanity! So I'd go up for altar calls almost every Sunday (just in case).
Love ya both and thanks for all you both do!❣️❣️
Very well said. Thanks
My sister died two weeks ago, 59.
@@davidlafleche1142 I'm sorry you're going through that.
@@davidlafleche1142
My condolences 🙏😔.
Ed and Tim, thanks for sharing your stories and your pearls of wisdom. Keep up the great lives. 💝🩵💙😺
Thoroughly intriguing interview. Thank you both.
As the guest spoke it was easy to draw the conclusion that any full dependency on a person or group is detrimental to the individual. This includes church, cults, marriages, and sometimes actual communities. My heart goes out to those in a relationship with an imbalance of power where intimidation by guilt, fear and shame keep them bound to an unhealthy lifestyle. Maintaining friendships outside the bubble ensures the possibility to escape with support.
Great listening. Much appreciated. Sitting here this evening knitting and thinking. Am very reassured by this honest story. Xxx
Great interview-there has to be more like him going through this, being joined at the hip with religion because of employment/financial circumstances.
Excellent interview Tim. Your videos feel like they are 15 minutes long, I’m always surprised when the end comes. 😊 I’m a former Christian, Bible teacher, preacher and youth pastor but I wasn’t in an employment situation. I’ve been an atheist for over 3 years.
I’ll definitely be subscribing to Ed’s channel.
There is only LOVE, in the end. Glad you got out of the cult but, to me, we are all all the creative energy of Source, & given free will. Believe what you want, just be kind, caring & Forgiving.
i so agree
Listening to you two, I get the idea that religion makes people to speak crazy.
What an interesting interview. I was quite engrossed throughout. Ed Raby imparted many wise and valuable insights. I’m “twerking on the fence” (to use a phrase of another entertainment u-tuber I watch) between belief and de-conversion. Two things Ed said were quite penetrating to me. First, don’t casually or flippantly assume you can de-convert without serious support or even therapy. His statement about contemplating the concept of no afterlife, of eternal non-existence after death was very impactful. Second, I thought his entire discussion of his deep love for his family was not only powerful, it was damn near poetic! I was moved. The thing he said that drove home this point was he would, by far, much rather maintain and retain his family, with its deep bonds of love, than be right. How wise?! He sounded like a sage. I wish Ed well, as I do you, too, Tim.
Years ago I heard this adage: Seek the truth and it will set you free.
I'm subd to both of you Tim and Ed, great to see you gentlemen on the same show , you two guys are a part of my support group
Left religion 57 years ago, never looked back, no regrets. Great story, best of luck with your journey.
See how your life didn’t change? If an all powerful god exists he would’ve made you feel the some consequences
@@nothereyetlostnot really, even if God exists, God doesn't care
@@rekhakhanna5008 indeed. I fear you are entirely too correct,
This was my favorite episode yet! Ed is so good at explaining his story and experience. So relatable. I'm listening a second time!
It's always interesting to me how many people claim their churches were very loving and accepting and weren't abusive at all... but also say they had to constantly confess their sins and always felt guilty and were taught there was nothing inherently good about themselves, all their goodness came from god.
Ummmmmm.... that's abuse.
A religious leader who consistently grifts the congregation and lies... is abusive.
And it's a fundamental part of a lot of the worst cults. There HAS to be something wrong with you - so you keep having to run to them to get "fixed".
Those who already feel so much guilt are going to have a great time when they end up on the other side again just to have that life review to feel even more guilty then get stuck with an even shittier life the next time around. The cherry on top is that a lot of life and these "sins" are part of the script/contract everyone gets stuck with.
Great interview! Ed finding out about his Autism late in life, is so similar to my husband, finally diagnosed at age 48! And we’re happily deconverted completely
This is really such a great podcast....love listening to all these 3 brave people finding themselves
I’m very grateful for your channel. It’s enlightening to hear all the similarities and differences from your guests’ personal stories and my own deconstruction journey. Keep up the great work
Two brilliant minds finally together. Go watch Ed. Great channel.
Omgoodness this story breaks my heart man. I too was that Christian who gave everything to my Church and to my faith in god and got little to nothing back in the end. I’m so glad I deconstructed and I’m glad you both got out alive from organized religion. Thanks for sharing your stories.
Wow! What a conversation. Thank you for posting.
I always feel like we should be calling it "deprogramming" instead of deconversion since it's really about leaving a cult.
I was in the Assemblies of God for decades and can relate 100% to everything Ed went through, including the marriage part. Some bridges cannot be rebuilt and some things cannot be unsaid. Many Christians don’t understand that.
Awesome interview!
I literally woke up this morning watching Ed's videos.
I'm a big fan of Ed and his channel, Rabid Atheist. Great interview guy's. Thanks Tim.
Thank you so much for doing these deconversion interviews. It's helping me to process and to know that others had similar thoughts and experiences.
Thanks, Natalie!
Please feel free to add me on FB and to reach out if you'd like to consider an interview.
facebook.com/harmonictim
Thanks, Tim!
Great interview! I can relate to many of Ed’s experiences.
Love Ed, he has a great channel 👍🏽
This is such a beautiful story, thank you for sharing the struggle…so real.
I probably say this for every interview, but Ed's life/experience is beyond words for me. Although I didn't go to seminary (cemetary) school, never was a leader in a church, never a preacher or pastor and all of that so called higher-godly heady stuff, I could relate to every word that he spoke.
As he said, about holding on with the "hope" he would see his father again, I associated with a female friend for too many years because she put me in the mind of my mother who I loved and lost. The loneliness, having to be strong for everyone else, but no one was strong for me (they didn't think I needed it) showed me how Christianity just dumbs down and blinds a person to humanity and how out of touch with reality they are.
I could go on and on, but this is such a relatable interview, I had to stop and post a comment. Thank you so much!
Your stories are very familiar to me. Peace.
There is only one regret watching this and that is that there is only one LIKE that can be given.
Ed, I really appreciate your comments at the end of the video. I have deconverted from Christianity and wish that someone would have told me that it is better to build relationships than to be right. If someone had told me this earlier, I believe it would have been easier for me and my family as I transitioned out of faith.
Dynamic interview, Tim. Such an interesting story, Ed.
Thank you, both.
I used to consider myself a 'sensible Christian'. That is, I accepted evolution as an undeniable fact; and regarded the Eden story as some kind of metaphor for the flip side of mankind's increasing intelligence...the development of a moral conscience and a recognition of 'right and wrong'. But of course it can't be a metaphor, because that evolutionary process contains no element that could be considered 'original sin'...it's an entirely natural and inevitable process.
To introduce original sin, you'd have to believe that God actually had a conversation with some unknown Homo erectus or Homo habilis which involved some specific disobedience, which is also unknown. The whole idea is absurd. And without original sin there is absolutely no need for some self-appointed redeemer of and saviour from that sin. Therefore Christ was either deluded, was misrepresented...or is entirely fictitious.
A point I've never seen raised anywhere is that as a species we're not even a discrete organism, we're a symbiant. So we can hardly claim to be specially created. We live in symbiosis with billions of our most distant ancestors working away in our gut, digesting all the food we give them every day. We don't digest that, we merely mash it up for them to digest; and we'd be dead within a couple of weeks if they didn't.
I'm excited to see Ed on your channel. I've recently found his channel and enjoy listening to him.
Greetings from an atheist in Ireland. This is a fascinating conversation. Great channel. I subscribed.
This is an incredible story. I can relate to some of the questioning he went through (although I was never a pastor)… that moment of “this isn’t real” really bright back memories.
Your best interview!
This is one of your best interviews Tim. Ed's story really hit home for me.
😀Omg! I have never, in my life heard a White person talk about " Tarrying" and "Holiness"! I grew up in a Pentecostal church like that. Very good talk! Anyway, thanks so much for sharing.
Terrific interview. I laughed at all the Pentecostal teachings reviewed as that’s the church I was in for forty years. A purity culture marriage too- I get what you speak of completely! I’ve listed to Ed on his own channel often- really helpful stuff- but absolutely loved this long interview. And the insights about how in Pentecostalism, maturity is seen by how many evidences you have of hearing God and gifts, but evangelicalism (where I still am now)- how many systematic theologies, heavy books by reformers and commentaries you read. Exactly right! I’ve experienced both and led in both.
Brilliant interview, Ed channel is a great help.
Thank you for sharing.
Unfortunately, Western Christianity has produced more atheist than just about anything else. I struggled with my faith for over 30 years, perhaps just as many reading this have. For me, I didn't arrive at a place of believing the proposition of "a creator" to be false, I arrived at a place of believing the specific theology and doctrines I had been taught were false.
I believe God is love..... I have ALWAYS felt that intuitively..... the Western Christianity version of God I was exposed to was anything but love... this was the problem. Then I discovered an uncorrupted narrative, one that embraces the mystery that is existence and the mystery that is God.
The one common denominator for every human is that we all desire love. At our core we desire to be loved and to love someone. So at our core we all actually are desiring God, because God is love. We may not know how to give love properly or how to receive love properly or what love should actually even look like.... but we ALL do ultimately desire it. The worst among us, desire love, and thereby are truly desiring God.
So, whatever you beliefs may be just remember...... ALL of life is a mystery, embrace the mystery, while endeavoring to live in the flow of love, because ultimately, I believe, "all shall be well, all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well". Shalom
What did you discover. I too have come to this thought as well.
Fantastic !
Excellent talk! And wow! The challenges you went through, Mr. Raby. It's gob stopping to someone like me, who never had to go through that. Then to come out of it with so much wisdom and patience. Even the trials of my coming out as gay in the early 70s is nothing by comparison. I didn't have a wife and children to make it so much more complex. My hat's off to you. And love your channel content. And much thanks to you as well, Harmonic Atheist. You give a flawless interview.
Thank you for your encouragement, Jeff!
Was a great interview. I could so relate to the experience of studying for the ministry and finding the Christian answers to tough (or even simple) questions being horrible.
Great interview, and you just earned yourself another subscriber.
Awesome, thank you!
What a great and encouraging interview.
Just found this channel, and I'm loving it. I'm just getting comfortable with calling myself "doconverted" rather than just "deconstructed".
Gonna check The Secular Therapy Project as well and unpack some stuff. But hearing these interviews is really helpful for me as well, so thank you very much.
I was diagnosed with Autism 3 years ago. I’m 47. Now everything makes sense looking back. Now I understand why all the abstract and far fetched stuff in the Bible never really made sense to me.
I just found Ed's channel, so I was excited to see you interviewed him. Such a great interview. Keep up the great work you two!
When he mentioned the value in family, it takes me back to not only my years of atheism now, but also the division between my father and his new immediate family due to issues involving money. While it's of notice however, his involvement in the church since his youth of indoctrination his parents were also heavily has definitely hurt the guy's pockets--even to points of staying with family. Where it'll always serve on my end as failure being futile within any religion, was he told me with that personal phase of confidence, his career path in the ministry and eventual success toward being a pastor. So I couldn't help but meet Ed halfway there when mention also of having some sort of reason for that second hand to assist you financially also. Because by far have I even heard stories of what titles and offering can do, in terms of the cause and negative effects in a multitude of ways in lives.
Trust me, @HA, I have been there. Like you are saying at 1:40:30, I ended a long-term relationship (my first deep one with my college sweetheart) after I realized that I no longer believed. And, we tried the counseling, but I was a fool to go to a Christian Counselor. Worst decision that I made there; maybe, we'd be together today -- if I didn't decide to go to someone who would always see it through "her lenses" and through the viewpoint of Christianity. So, our relationship and communication got even worse and more tense, when going to a "Christian Counselor" (who was supposed to be so biblical and able to see both sides), because I (somehow) became the villain and the one who was the one sinning. And, get this -- all the stupid books they gave me to read (like the "Wounded Heart" or some other Christian work) were so child-like and so ridiculous -- with a prayer at the end of every chapter. And, basically, the whole book was just 1) realize you are a sinner, 2) accept Jesus into your heart, and 3) God will heal you and anything else. Well, it sure had no real psychological relevance to our situation and did not help to resolve or provide assistance to the wounds that she had from childhood. So, sometimes, it's better to leave the situation and move on; or, that's what I found through a very hard break-up and gut-wrenching decision to end the relationship with my first-love. All the prayers in the world, didn't make our relationship get fixed up through some magical "words spoken to the winds".
Thanks!
Many have a "repeat after me" theology and source of information who simply repeat what they have heard without studying for themselves. All scripture must be interpreted in light of its historical and literary context. Any text must be interpreted in the same way it was interpreted when it was written. Nobody would think of interpreting an ancient text in the same way as people do today. That is something I learned in my English class in my junior year in a public high school.
Tim, your joke, “it could be good or it could be bad” reminds me of the saying, “there is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” 😊
Hamlet
I can identify with this. I was doing my theology degree while attending a Pentecostal church and the pastors kept making comments like , glad I never went to bible college because it would mean that they would not be as spiritual,
“You’re fallen, broken, unworthy, and just the worst - I love you anyway, but don’t expect anyone else to!” - God’s attempt at inducing Stockholm Syndrome on a global level…
Asbury is right down the road from me! Hard to believe this guy turne😮 But I understand 100% why he did! Way to step out Ed! YOU took the RED PILL⚡️👍
Love seeing the ex pastor episodes. If a pastor can have a fallout then anyone can.
Thank for this interview, was very inspiring
Cool.. I just saw some of Eds videos last week for the first time. Was thinking he'd be a good interview for Tim... and here it is. I watched his story on his channel. This should be good.
One of the best interviews. I can relate to this one especially growing up Assembly of God. The machine grids you up and spits you out. The internet killed jesus.
If I understand the Pentecostal theology correctly, the Arminian mentality [you are not "permanently" saved, but have to stay holy, in opposition to the Calvinist thought, of "once saved, always saved"], is a constant looking over your shoulder and wanting to "make sure I'll make it,'' meaning I'll be taken up in the Rapture with the rest, as long as I stay holy, and don't sin, but if I do, I have to confess the sin, each and every time, immediately.
Great Interview Ed
Growing up I attended a fairly pentecostal church. I never questioned the core tenants of the religion, but the truth claims made about the more extreme beliefs had me doubting. But, not at first.
I asked lots of questions, but my questions never came from a place of skepticism. My questions came from a place of belief and a desire for clarity.
Asking questions about the more extreme beliefs of pentecostal faith taught me how to ask questions and that asking questions wouldn't bring god's wrath down on me.
After the truth claims of the extreme stuff broke down I had a pretty reasonable grip on how to ask questions. And so, my questions continued toward the less extreme claims and eventually the core claims.
I often wonder if I'd have ever walked away from religion had I been brought up in a tamer faith.
Towards the end he said that you can't leave on your own, that there is grieving. For me, I was simply done once I saw through it. When the blinders came off (or VR goggles) suddenly here is this big wonderful world full of music, dance, creativity, languages, hobbies, all mine to explore and no sky being pissed at me, and no invisible minions trying to trick me. I did do a lot of processing of the change in my dreams at night, and by writing out my journey and thoughts, but I wouldn't say there was any grieving, more of a relief. That seems odd given my previous devotion, but I felt burned by the fact I'd been in a cult for decades, so no love lost for me.
As a fellow person on the autism spectrum, I KNEW there was something about the way you seem to think, speak, and rationalize out your arguments that felt familiar. :)
Great interview!
at 1:18 it sounds more like United Church of Christ than Church of Christ. Also sounds like a Community Church set up. Excellent story about your journey, thanks!
As a man who grew up in the AoG church with a Pentecostal mother, I recognize and sympathize with the struggle he underwent. Thank goodness for Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth" and a skeptical reading of the Bible in my late teens that woke ny ass up.
Ed, I am so very sorry. I was in Catholic seminary for 4 years, worst mistake of my life. Your situation brought even more pain, I am sure.
Great interview, thanks!
I love both of your channels. Keep up the good work.
I love and miss my father too, but I’d love to see him again but when I die too if he here isn’t anything I worried about seeing him again fir nothing