Reloading for accuracy - Sorting - Sinclair comparator

[@Not-the-only-one]

It would be cool if you put together a top 10 list, of the things that help you get smaller groups.

[@ironbomb6753]

@John Doe "group them" good pun my man. 👍🤣

[@duckslayer11000]

Practice, unless you are shooting at least 400rds a month you are the weakest link.

[@duckslayer11000]

@@markh6427 search Rail Guns - The Science of Shooting and watch the rail gun class of benchrest shooting. It is more or less what you are talking about.

[@soonersteve3733]

This video inspired me to look at buying this set up until you introduced using the Short Action comparator set. I have the Short Action comparator set for 22 cal and 6.5CM. I also have the Sinclair concentricity gauge with the digital dial indicator. Because the concentricity base is machined aluminum base all I did was turn the indicator and raised the mounting post to allow me to use my Short Action comparator to measure the base to ogive. Works great and now I can do both measurements with just one tool and saved the cost of buying the Sinclair tool!
If I remember you tested the Sinclair concentricity tool in another video. In fact I own these tools because of your videos. Just wanted to share with you how much you can learn from your videos and take one of your comments to a different level as in my case described above.
Thanks and keep your videos coming.

[@1metalg0d]

If you check the pro f class guys a lot of them use the hoover meplat trimmer to get the length identical. Then they re tip them with either the whidden tipping die or hoover tipping die and the hoover meplat trimmer can be used to measure the length check out f class John for the videos showing the tools

[@louisshambarger2230]

I have been doing something similar to measure cartridge shoulder to base length for years. I bought a comparator from ENCO, now called MSC. Then I made a cup which screws onto the stem of the dial indicator. I bored the I.D. Of the cup to the datum size for the cartridge I am checking. You could just use a number size drill bit that is close enough close. The standard size is available on line for most cartridges on the SAMMI website but it is usually just the diameter of the shoulder halfway down. Place a fired cartridge under the indicator, lower the stem so that the cup is centered and zero the indicator. Depending on whether your gun leaves a crater on the primer you may need to punch out the primer. Then put
a resized case under the indicator and note how much the shoulder has been set back. I like 0.001” or less.

[@zinfendal0]

Whew when you brought out that caliper for a minute there I thought you were going to start an R&R study. The dial indicator is a great idea... eliminates most human error.

[@hdmungeryt]

If you use 2 bullet comparators mounted on your caliper (or on the Sinclair tool if you can figure out a mount on the dial indicator stem for a comparator insert), you can measure the bearing surface only, which would also minimize any inconsistencies in the boat tail.
If you sort by weight and then bearing surface, you should be accounting for 2 of the major factors in bullet related in-barrel performance (weight and drag). Useful only for group to group consistency, but not necessarily for lot to lot group consistency.

[@seantierney3]

will be intersting to see if their is any change between a group of sorted bullets vs straight out of the packaging. I have a feeling things like charge weight, seating depth, primer, neck tension are going be much more influential on performance that sorting.

[@tyler6147]

Bryan Litz and Emil Praslik made an excellent point in their series on The Everyday Sniper podcast. Basically it went like this:
(my summary)
Back in the 1950's bullet manufacturing wasn't very accurate. Hence your grandpas of the world all sorted bullets into weights that were similar. Back then tolerances were say +- 3 or 4 grains and they would be sorted into bins that were within a grain of each other.
Now tolerances are like +- 1 grain so people are sorting them to .1 or .2 grains difference. The main reason is because that's what my grandpa did. Short and sweet is old habits die hard and that people are wasting their time, especially if they are using quality components.

[@tyler6147]

That all said if people are shooting long range those points and other things could matter as to the down range performance, but in general it's not a good practice anymore. Heck, look at the history of Berger Bullets. The guy made his start by making jackets with a jeweler's lathe. He built that whole company based around closing the gap of manufacturing tolerances so people DIDN'T have to sort bullets by hand anymore.

[@daviddale3624]

Base to ogive with calipers. Comparator and insert (Hornady) on the right side. Holding the base to the left side with two fingers push hard then release pressure but keep both hands in the same position. Read the result. I have had the same experience of consistency with Berger, Lapua, Hornady, and Sierra.

[@swamper2fly]

Great topic and brought some smart rabbits into the rabbit hole. Thank you

[@randyemenhiser2573]

I use one of those (dial gauge) to sort Bob's bulk 55 grain fmj-bt. I've shot 3-shot groups (conserving primers) of .0800, .1020, and .1470. I also sort them by weight. Gives me the bullet-to-bullet consistency of premium bullets

[@ralphbuoncristiani2941]

Redding makes the Instant Indicator (albeit only in select calibers). It will check headspace, shoulder bump, COAL, in addition to using as a bullet comparator. Seems that would be a better investment.

[@Jeff-hn7gi]

I agree what matters the most. I shoot nra rifle and need smaller groups!

[@rotasaustralis]

I think it's a case of horses for courses. Litz did expand on the subject in some video I watched & said that it became important at long & extra long range.
If Litz says it, I believe him &, if I were an F class shooter, I'd be sorting bullets as he advises.
Litz is the only guy I listen to unreservedly because he has more experience with the science of ballistics than just about anyone else out there at the moment.
I'm not sure how you plan to test the results of the sorting though.

[@paulvenn4447]

New microphone? :o
Sounds way better!

[@jackuber7358]

Seems like a pretty serious leap into OCD land.

[@justinvandee2008]

I sort 500 bulk by placing them into the empty Berger 100 pc box by half thou

[@barrywinn2538]

I sort base to ogive even for the gas guns where mag length is a concern. Accuracy seems better also. When your working close to the lands a swing of .006-.0010 can jam and cause pressure spikes . Chasing this variable by adjusting your die is not a good solution.

[@davidunderwood3605]

I start by sorting weight then ogive to base. Couldn't tell how much it helps or changes things.

[@danieldillon6005]

You can do all the work sorting but your rifle will always outshoot you

[@mattfleming86]

I do not sort bullets 90% of the time. I seek wide accuracy nodes (via powder) with good premium bullets when accuracy really matters. If I am shooting cheap crap, i'm reloading for fun. I still seek a jump/powder combination that provides a buffer for slight variations in brass/bullet/etc. For me it is more practical to change bullets instead of sort them because of the time sink it causes. I'd rather be shooting. Sorting absolutely shrink groups some, but so can better marksmanship. I'll take the .2"-.3" hit to be putting rounds down range.

[@johnholmes4960]

I have the exact same thing I made. Here is what I found. There is a lot of “talk” about base to ogive. For example, on the SAAMI drawing for .223, the bullet diameter is 0.2245” -0.003. The bore is 0.219.
Somewhere on that bullet will measure 0.219”. The point of contact will be right there. Everything has a tolerance plus or minus something. How deep the barrel it’s screwed in has a tolerance value. The bolt has a tolerance in the machining process. The reamer that machines the chamber has a tolerance.
In order for everything to fit, and for every finished cartridge to fit any rifle or firearm, interchangeability must be maintained with very specific tolerances maintained so the CLEARANCES will allow everything to work without fail. That is where a shooter or reloader has to find what the gun likes, putting aside what he or she likes. Measure, measure, measure till you are blue in the face. Collect all the data you can collect till you can’t sleep at night. And on it goes. The trick is to find what your gun likes, or how to find what a particular gun likes, and go with THAT. Now, THAT is what reloading is all about, besides, as recreation, this can get more frustrating and expensive than playing golf.
I got lucky.
My Remington 700 BDL .223 totally loves the Winchester .223 45 grain hollow point. But my Howa 1500 hates everything so far. It could be the gun. It could be the ammo. It sure as hell ain’t ME. 😳 so, what is it? Do we shoot for sport, points, the smell of gun powder in the morning......what? We no longer need to hunt for food and sustenance, nor do we need to keep the dinosaurs away. As an Army vet, I was trained to do one thing with an M-14. At first, I could not hit a thing. But then, my range instructor was very patient with me, and I quailed sharpe shooter, then expert. When used successfully as intended, it stays with you for a lifetime. And I hate it.
I have watched hours and hours of these videos. After a while from what I see and hear, there are only a few things a shooter and reloader has control over. The shooter tries to put a bullet in the same hole every time. What is the probability of that happening if the gun hates that reload, or, the shooter can’t shoot or maybe the scope is bad? Chasing that ghost is worse than finding a cure for diabetes.
So, reloading is recreation at best and should be kept that way as entertainment only. It’s not really needed for another purpose. Have SAFE fun.
There is a lot of “expert information” in these videos. I want to see one guy, just one guy, do a reload of maybe 25 rounds, and put five of those rounds in the same hole at 100 yards, or even 25 yards. Show me your mud, then I will really listen.

[@6handicap604]

John, take a quick gander at the 5 and 10 shot bench rest records, even going back decades. You will find more mud than any swamp buggy you have ever seen can handle. Many people have been chasing that ghost for decades and finding it. Just because you can't find it does not mean nobody can find it. Would you say a 5 shot group with a spread of .282 between centers at 100 yards would qualify as MUD? That is the record at 600 yards dude! The 5 shot record at 100 yards is .0077, yes under 8 thou center to center over 5 shots! The previous record of .009 was set in 1973, nearly 50 years ago! They measure with a 60 power microscope because guess what, it is ONE HOLE! You are all smoke and no fire.

[@johnholmes4960]

@@6handicap604 Albert....what is the tolerance on how far to screw a .223 barrel in, in thousandths of an inch? Please give me that one number. Then take a box of any brand off the shelf ammo and measure for one distance only. Measure from the base to the ogive for the entire box of bullets. We know what the nominal is by the SAAMI drawing. Use that. As a reference for later. Now, if you have a box of any .223 right off the shelf.......please be fair with me on this.....make a list and number them. Write down what you get for each bullet. Then look at the range for too long and too short.
Here comes the best part. Add them all up, and divide by the number of bullets you measured. No fudging here. You may find the dividend may be very close to what the SAMMI drawing says. Maybe not. So, what does all this mean to me? One thing is, why does my Remington BDL .223 LOVE ONE ROUND, but hates another? Why does my HOWA 1500 hate everything? How does all this relate to ogive position? How many variables are there? So, maybe.....just maybe if everyone posts what they found and what works, maybe all of us can reload better and safer. This hobby is dangerous. What I like is not in my equation. What matters to me is what my gun likes.
Hornady makes and sells a bullet depth gauge, but they leave out the single most important part. As a long term self employed manufacturing engineer, I was self employed for 31 years with 16 employees. I saw a lot come through my shop. Everything is about the details. Precision details consistently. I am developing a precision gauge to check exactly from chamber to chamber. Wait for it.

[@6handicap604]

@@johnholmes4960 I noticed you didn't answer whether a .0077 group at 100 yards was mud or not, but anyway. You are talking apples and oranges. Take a factory .223 measure this, measure that, measure, measure, measure.
The best rifles, shooters, and record holders simply do not use factory actions and barrels. It is an entirely different game to load for a rifle when you know the measurements before hand. They use custom reamers, custom actions, where all those tolerances are wide in a factory rifle, theirs are much much tighter in custom rifles. Now you have just machining tolerances, not machining plus SAMMI tolerances. It is a completely different ball game. I know my chamber, I do not have to guess where in the SAMMI specs my chamber falls, I know. I select the neck diameter of my reamer and in the chamber based upon the brass that I use and the dimensions of that brass after turning. I KNOW when fired, my neck will expand .005. In a factory rifle the neck size is larger as it must accommodate all factory brass of any make, unturned. I have seen at least .006 variances in brass thickness over various makes. So if you have a factory rifle that is close to the maximum SAMMI spec, which they usually are, and you have thin walled brass, your neck could expand 10 to 12 thou. That effects the pressure curve and can cause some blowback, are your necks and shoulders powder burned on the outside? Then there is freebore, diameter and length, etc etc etc. Pick up a new factory rifle and and factory ammo. Before firing tell me what the base to shoulder dimension will be, tell me what the neck size will be. tell me how much the case body will expand on the case after firing. I know what mine will be with a new barrel, before I ever shoot it. That is why the worlds best shooters use the same components, powder, bullet, and primer, barrel after barrel after barrel. They KNOW what their rifles like, they designed the rifle for the cartridge, they don't have to search for it. With a factory rifle this is why one must try to find the components that work best. You are trying to find components that best fit your factory rifle, rather than building a rifle to fit the components. Do you skin a cat starting from the tail or head? Both will skin the cat, one is easier and faster.

[@johnholmes4960]

Albert, 0.0077 is an awesome number. That is undeniable. I totally agree with you, and NOT disputing that value. Still, what is the probability of YOU doing the same thing, with YOUR rifle, and YOUR ammo that YOU reload? There is a wealth of knowledge on here. It is not a competition to help some one be a better shooter. For me, I want the guy next to me on the range to be as good or better than me, so both of us can enjoy the sport and have some fun. I want that shooter to shoot safely. AND, TO BE CLEAR, if he or I need help, I would do my best if asked or I see something bad about to happen. Which I did. Here is that story.
I was out at my local range. A father brought his 10 year old son to the range. The dad had a 7mm magnum bolt action rifle. I do not know the brand. The little guy had the scope way too close to his face, and he was not really hanging on to avoid the recoil. I stepped up and told the dad his face was too close. Well, the dad said the boy was fine, and told that little guy to shoot. His remark was a quiet way to tell me to mind my own business. Sooo......the little suffered a scope ring recoil around his right eye and screamed in pain. I am hoping the dad felt like an idiot.
What I did to help, since the dad was just standing there in shock was to tend to the boy with some encouragement. I was shooting my Anschutz .17 HMR. Which is perfect for a kid. I offered it to the boy . It was like getting back on the horse for him.
Here is the other part. If you hunt deer, there are times when a hunter never gets a shot. Yet, some hunters spend thousands of dollars on guns, clothing, gear and the trip, never to get a shot off. So, it’s about the adventure. Now, when that deer is in the cross hairs, that one single shot is a cold shot, and maybe only one. At the range, only the first shot is a cold shot. So.....sir......with all this and that about reamers , tolerances, and shooting knowledge in general, my goal is to share as much real truth and fact on here so there’s can enjoy shooting safely and not injure me or someone else. There are things we both know. There are things we both THINK we know. What we type is what others read and interpret.
I began my manufacturing career in September 1969. I discharged from the Army in August after three years. I went to college for engineering, and worked in many machines shops. In October 1982 I was ready to open my own shop. I had 16 employees, we worked 24/5 . I bought a CNC laser, Haas mill, press brake and other machines. 2013 I had enough. I know how to make things. When I hear someone talk about precision reloading , then say crimp a little bit, my eyes roll.
Have a good day🤠

[@6handicap604]

@@johnholmes4960 No, I do not expect to shoot those numbers, but truth be told, neither did the guy who shot it. It is a less than once in a lifetime event, 5 or 10 perfect loads, perfect conditions, perfect trigger breaks and more. The point is, he built a rifle and loads capable of doing it. None of these records were set with a factory action and factory barrel, that is what I am saying. Apples and oranges. I understand your thinking about hunting, I hunt as well. I reload for my hunting rifle(factory) and got my groups consistently around .5 MOA. 1/2" groups at 100 yards and less than 2" at 300 yards. Good enough, don't need to mess any further with bullets, powders and seating depths. I use good brass, good bullets and good powder, I don't turn the necks, do anything to the primer hole, nothing, straight out of the box Lapua brass, straight out of the box Berger bullets, no sorting no tipping, nothing. Can I shoot F-Open with that rifle? Yes, Can I compete with that rifle? No. But for hunting it is more than accurate for the intended purpose. 1/4 kill zone at 300 yards, nothing more required. Very simple concept, Different games require different tools. Anyone who tries to get 1/4 MOA or less from a factory rifle is on a fools errand. SAMMI specs, by definition fairly well deny that. I too have spent considerable time in machine shops, I was a CNC repairman for about 15 years, I should not have to explain the concept to you. A Bridgeport and drill can drill a bolt clearance hole at +/- .010 all day long, but if you need a finished hole at +/- .0005, you need different tool.

[@genebenson1872]

could it also be used for measuring case headspace rather than with calipers?

[@BoltActionReloading]

I haven't tried this but maybe? The stand isn't very tall.

[@orozcocris93]

wouldnt it be easier to just get a pointer?

[@BoltActionReloading]

A pointer isn't going to change the base to ogive measurement.

[@beres70]

Measure with micrometer, sign with chalk, cut with an axe. It worth nothing if your seating die handleing (used force) not exactly the same, or the seating die diameter not exactly the same as your measuring tool.

[@AbdelOveAllhan]

Litz no longer recommends base to ogive (BTO). He now suggests the most effective way to sort bullets is simply OAL. This from his Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting, Vol II. I tried base to ogive measurements to sort my bullets but the Bergers are so consistent that it became obvious that it was unnecessary.