I've studied Greek philology in the university of Athens (Greece) and right now I'm doing a Master on Special Education. The goal is to get a PhD. However, it will be very difficult to find work based on what I've studied. I make way more money trough the family business which didn't really require any diplomas. So, studying is more like a hobby now.
If you went into academia and you found this video because you were disheartened by what you have been experiencing so far, know that you don’t need to teach in America. Teaching is the ultimate career for those with wanderlust (both in the university setting and k-12). I moved to Korea for work. University gigs here don’t make as much as tenured professors in the states (my roommate’s father is a tenured history professor and he makes 90k a year), but the pay here isn’t that bad. Most university gigs for foreign hires pay around 42-50k per year, but include free rent in nice apartments near campus so you end up with a pretty decent disposable income. You also get 3-4 months paid vacation. I’m here for the time being but have no plans to make it my home permanently. I’m also looking into university gigs in other countries and travel quite a bit during my vacations. All is not lost, fellow academics! Don’t just apply for academic jobs in the US though! Go abroad!
I thought this guy was a little strange at first, but his thoughts are incredibly well reasoned. I think anyone who wants a PhD should watch this first. I went for a Phd and left with a masters. For me, it amounted to an enormous waste of time and energy. Although I was paid a decent stipend, it also came at a significant opportunity cost in terms of lost wages. I wish I had talked to more people like him before I went for a PhD.
A phd should finish alot faster than it takes but PI's are using phd students to get cheap labor. That "free stipend" is basically just slave labor. You can get paid more on the open market working a minimum wage job
2 Years into a PHD my husband abandoned with a 2nd master's degree and got a great job. While colleagues with the PHD in his engineering field are still having trouble (up to 5 years or more) finding a decent job.
You have a fantastic hypnotic quality...the tone of your voice, the calmness of your demeanor, the cadence of your speech, timed pauses, and fixation of your pupils... I am somewhat reminded of 1960s-1970s era documentaries when Iisten to you.
Thank you for sharing your experience and frustrations. Unfortunately, all too many people today are in a position similar to yours. My best wishes to you in overcoming these challenges through creativity, hard work, and entrepreneurship. May you create something great and profit immensely from it.
Mr Stolyarovll, This is one of the best videos that I have seen around UA-cam. Your arguments and explanations are very well supported. I have always had the idea that people who pursue a PhD do so because they lack other necessary abilities and qualities that are required to shine in other fields of life.
phd is great when you love love academia, in particular research and writing .. otherwise there is no reason to spend your life on that because it is very demanding in terms of time and there r better ways of getting better salaries. plus pursuing phd when you dont love research will result in getting a position where someone else is better suited.
I'm interested in getting a Ph.D within a few years. I think the model you are suggesting is essentially correct. However, at least in the field(s) of humanities, there are innovative models for earning a doctorate. Distance learning and low residency options are now becoming more popular. I think this will become a new trend that will change Ph.Ds as we understand them.
You bring up an interesting and valid point. I agree that any options that would reduce the cost (including the opportunity cost) as well as the location constraints of pursuing a PhD would render such a pursuit an incrementally preferable choice (perhaps significantly so). More generally, I am quite favorably disposed toward formal education programs that confer certifications and credentials as a result of self-study, followed by some manner of evaluation (exams or graded assignments). Indeed, for the past five years, while employed full-time, I have continually studied on my own to obtain various insurance credentials (of which I have ten at present). My challenge in this video is aimed at the traditional, rigidly hierarchical method of pursuing a PhD, embedded in a 20th-century legacy academic system that views the graduate student as a source of cheap labor. If some PhD programs can instead embrace radically different models - including distance learning, a focus on individual student achievement (rather than serving the professor/advisor), and an accommodation for people learning at their own paces - then all the more power to them.
G. Stolyarov II It's already happening. For example, I'm very interested in pursuing a Ph.D in Divinity. At a typical American University, if you don't get the free ride, you're looking at a cost of $50k. Right now, in South Africa, there are a handful of Ph.Ds with a total cost of $10k. It does also extend beyond the Religious sphere as well.
A technology-sector company I worked at went through a tough financial period and eliminated two of its employees. The company chose to eliminate the only two guys with PhD's, retaining everyone else. The two guys with PhD's had been with the company much longer than several of the guys who kept their jobs. Those eliminated were a Math PhD and a Physics PhD.
That is making the rather strong assumption that the money one can make while pursuing a PhD is enough for a decent level of sustenance. It is enough for subsistence (if one is willing to work all of one’s waking hours as a teaching assistant) - unless an accident, health problem, or unexpected property loss occurs.
As I stated, I had most of my tuition covered by a merit scholarship and actually made money in college. I just wanted to make more money and saw the huge opportunity cost of spending 4+ years in a PhD program. As a result, I own a house, have a decent amount of savings, and absolutely no non-mortgage debt in my life, ever.
I recognize that there may be non-financial motives to obtaining a PhD, but at that point it becomes a consumption good, not an “investment”. Furthermore, studying most of the same subjects can be accomplished independently in a less formal setting.
in Australia, I checked the uni policy for phd acceptance, and it said there are multiple of assessors of phd thesis, one of whom must be based outside of country, and that even if the thesis is not accepted right away, which happens about 20 percent of time or so, they give you an extra year to revise and resubmit the thesis, so it is not that the advisor can simply accept or reject your thesis as he chooses, there is a long and serious process involved in assessing the thesis, sometimes up to a year before the assessors give their assessment of thesis. also, who knows if the 16% figure for professors is valid everywhere, pretty sure that is from America. this figure could be less or more depending on each country. about half of phd students in Australia go to academia and the other half go and work for some other industry or company, phd is about gaining research skills. its not for everyone.
My problem with the PhD, in essence, is that the system’s idiosyncrasies (subordination to established academic figures, the “grunt work” forced on the graduate students to benefit their professors, lack of adequate reward for the work performed, extensive opportunity costs, and the conceit of many institutions that they and only they can teach the material properly) have come to overshadow any actual learning or valuable hard work that take place.
Your speech and behaviour is very deliberate and reminds me profoundly of someone with whom I attended school. Your ability to engage and interest the audience lack somewhat on the emotive side. You draw sweeping generalizations that are provably false, yet the concepts you evoke are true generally. The way you speak betrays your idealism and ego-centrism; those are not only your unique flaws, but the very sources of your mental acumen. The essence of the issue is simply that working for one is less profitable than working for many. Granted, a PhD makes you much more valuable. Nonetheless, your value to one person yields diminishing returns while your value to people can be a linear function; unlimited profitability. If you are providing value, you only need set the price to receive your profit. Price of course, is limited by perception of value. Entrepreneurship is the art of providing unlimited value without diminishing returns.
There's an obvious selection problem - many who do a phd are not interested in a higher wage but value doing research higher and thus choose to go for a lower-paying job. There is no good "randomized control trial" of randomly giving PhDs to people and seeing what the effect of it is in a more general population.
Truthfully you nailed it at the end. Higher eduction as a consumer good is where it got by... about the 1980's. Initially it was about advancing society, that about jobs. When the jobs dried up it became about sports, then the sponsorship for sports stopped yielding good results so it became about politics and social justice. Now all of the afore mentioned have fallen in a heap so it's about being ear-bashed into a lifetime of debt slavery in misery, stress and poor health. A.G.
Much depends on your personal situation and the potential (if any) of said program to improve your life and prospects. I would recommend that you consider factors such as (1) the opportunity cost of time, (2) the possible difference (in either direction) to your future earnings, (3) the material standard of living you would have during and after the MA/PhD program, and (4) what opportunities you would have to pursue and receive credit for meaningful accomplishments with or without the program.
Two actuarial societies offer examinations: the Casualty Actuarial Society (CAS) and the Society of Actuaries (SOA). The first five examinations (1/P, 2/FM, MLC, 3F/MFE, and 4/C) are offered jointly by the two societies. Higher-level exams differ between the two societies, and which path you pursue will depend on whether your interest is in property/casualty insurance (CAS) or life/health insurance and pensions (SOA). The SOA will open its own property/casualty track starting Fall 2013.
@Counterop In the US, the initial actuarial exams are offered jointly by the Casualty Actuarial Society and the Society of Actuaries - so it is one track. For the upper-level exams, the CAS and SOA follow their own separate ways. The CAS path is for actuaries in property and casualty insurance. The SOA path is for actuaries in life and health insurance.
I have little experience with PhD programs outside the United States. Anecdotal reports from friends and others suggest that, in the UK and Canada, the PhD experience is more reasonable, less exploitative, and better priced. In some other parts of the world, where employment opportunities are more generally limited and the few opportunities available are based largely on formal credentials, a PhD may be a decent choice.
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Interesting point of view Stolyariv. I just be accepted into Phd Moral and Political Philosophie. The conditions of labor market are very hard, but i´m very motivated!
I learned this after graduating with my bachelors.. because of health reasons I took longer to finish school,but I always wanted to go for phd. After struggling to land a job in my field I've decided I am tired of the rat race. I love my field, I worked in four different labs during my undergrad ,but no one cares unless you got 2-5 years of industry experience. I feel I got a lesson in humility because I used to think you had to go for phd to be somebody. Real life taught me better.. now I know why so many Phds I saw were struggling post docs and not in industry making big bucks.
I did not say that these innovators were born knowing how to innovate. Surely, they need to work hard and to become educated. My point is that they can often educate themselves by seeking out the relevant literature and experiences. In our increasingly formalistic society, having had a “canon” experience such as a PhD has become more of a hurdle to jump over to get into certain occupations, rather than a practical prerequisite for being able to actually *perform* in those occupations.
I want to go into secondary education administration, and I plan to get an Ed.D. which should pay for itself 10x over. It will be mounds easier to become a principal or superintendent with that degree, although I wouldnt recommend it for anyone else in secondary education, as there is not a need for it. It sucks that we have to go through that nowadays, but as long as you get a part time job in the field you wish to go into during graduate school, you should be fine going into the job market. For example, I will substitute maybe once or twice a week in order to get that experience under my belt. When I leave graduate school as a dcotor, Ill admit it will be annoying that you have the capacity to teach graduate school students and have to teach high school students, but once that two years by state mandate is up, you have a golden ticket to almost any open position in the State. Long and annoying road, but what isnt these days lol
I have a PhD and I don't regret it. The unemployment, crisis etc it's not related with pursuing or not a PhD. It would be more interesting discuss what we can do to change the situation in the world. Why we have this problems....
An interesting discussion Mr.Stolyarov. In Australia many PhD graduates can't get a job after years and years of studying and then have to go back and get a teaching degree. If your motivating factor is a good job at the end of study then it is worth seriously thinking about the points you raise. The noble pursuit of knowledge does have to be weighed against starving or a life in retail.
@Alex1SUN Thank you for your comments. In the situation that you describe, I agree that pursuing a PhD would make economic sense. It would also raise one's standard of living while one is in the country in which one is pursuing the PhD.
Im 30, I have a degree in finance and an mba from Canisius College, my GPA was arounf 2.5 as an undergrad. I was on academic probation in my sophomore yeah and went to a community college for a semester to redeem myself and reenter Canisius. Ive been in the workforce for 7 years since getting my BS and have zero student loan debt and an annual income of $80,000 at one of the largest banks in the world, im happy. I didnt have to be the smartest or hardest working to achieve what I wanted.
i would not get a phd for money, phd should be done for love of knowledge. Yes it is pricey but knowledge is far better than earthly possessions. If you want earthly possessions get them a different way lol
***** I would agree many people get a phd for that reason, but there are others who purely want to achieve great knowledge, and do not even mention it.
***** " A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad. " -- Theodore Roosevelt One of my favorite quotes. I do not see a correlation between knowledge and morals. I know just as many horrible people who are extremely smart as I do un intelligent people who are horrible morally. Many killers are extremely smart and find it intellectually satisfying to outsmart a detective. Likewise many computer hackers and thief's are very well educated, at least in terms of computer tech. Then you have all the corrupt and evil politicians and rulers around the world from past to present who have done more to kill more people than any un educated person could possibly DREAM. I think MOST people intend to do good, or want to do good, but end up doing evil and are ashamed of themselves. What do I mean ? Well think of someone on a diet, they want to eat right, they want to loose weight, but so often they eat something along the way they were not supposed to eat and feel guilty about it. Well same thing with life in general, we want to do the right thing, but the right thing can be an uncomfortable choice. For instance we know that most of our oil comes from saudi arabia who then turns around and funds terrorism, oppresses women, throws homosexuals off buildings and so on and so forth with this money. The right thing for all of us to do is to demand our government get oil from somewhere else, OR use far less oil in our lives, but nobody actually does that. We could very well do so, but then the prices would go way up and that would simply be a big inconvenience for us. So we look the other way. I am guilty of this too, most of us are. This is but 1 example of how being smart does not cause people to magically care about other people, especially at the cost of their own comforts.
To be honest in a growing number of cases: bachelors and associates degrees are not economically wise. While education is important, collage is increasingly counter productive. Basically sets you back 5 to 15 years financially. And you don't get pay that offsets that hardship.
@Hellerium The alternative is to take tests for professional designations in the field of your choice. I majored in economics, mathematics, and German during college and passed actuarial exams on the side, which allowed me to enter the insurance field upon graduation. The professions that allow advancement (or job qualification) on the basis of passing self-study courses and examinations are a viable (and often more remunerative) choice compared to pursuing a PhD program.
No, it is my own house, which I have owned for over three years. This further reinforces my point. How many PhD students can say that they own a house? Not pursuing a PhD helped enable me to purchase one.
Fair enough, but is it easy compared to an office job - which is the alternative for most people who would go to graduate school? The advantage of an office job (if it is chosen well and if one works efficiently on the job) is the absence of "homework" and the ability to make one's time outside the office truly one's own. The other emerging alternative is telecommuting, which is even more flexible.
@lengthyounarther It is a different microphone that is older than the one I use when I am not looking at a camera on my computer. I also agree with your later comments. All hopes now are on the abilities of innovative individuals, who choose to follow unorthodox paths, to counteract the systemic inefficiencies and injustices of our time.
I agree with some points here. I ended up going into medicine and recommend this path to high achieving students here in Australia. It can depend on the PhD you choose. Some departments treat these students like slave labor, honour and master students get a pretty bad deal as well. You should choose this pathway if you truly want an academic career. A lot of the changes to degrees now have been motivated by revenue for the university. I remember my first bachelor was 3 years - It has now been extended to a 4 year program. So I am not surprised graduate students are forced to retake subjects. You do a PhD out of love for your field, not for a better job or better income. If you want a PhD, I suggest finding a job first, have a family. Be secure in your income and do a PhD on the side as part-time if you have to. Getting that first job is the most difficult. After the first job, applying for the second and third job becomes easier.
I agree that doing experimental science is, in some cases, more difficult outside of academia, but even there emerging technologies are offering unprecedented opportunities. DIY biology and distributed computing are cases in point.
@GStolyarovII: The decline in contributors may be partly explained due to the fact that now all big topics have been pretty much covered by English Wikipedia, and now people find less to write about. On a bright side, for this year Wikimedia Foundation raised over 16 million from over 500K contributors. So while we certainly agree it would have been much better to get so many unemployed PhDs to contribute to it, I think Wikipedia isn't doing so bad right now.
I couldn't find a job and now I'm in Graduate school. I'm 27 and not getting any younger and increasing my debt another 40k to 80k with extremely high rate unsubsidized loans. By the time I get out I'll be 29 with little to no relevant work experience and substantial interest payments. I am beyond afraid. I have been saying to others many of things things you said. I do know that for me to reach my goals, entrepreneurship is the key. Thanks for reaffirming that belief.
The trade-off is not merely a function of time, and it does not need to be so severe (or exist at all, in some cases) if one has other attitudes (e.g., a focus toward meliorism, general erudition, efficiency, and individual expression). Many of the great Renaissance Men of history - Leonardo, Newton, Leibniz, Franklin, Jefferson, Goethe, Borodin - managed to make cutting-edge innovations in numerous disciplines, while keeping the big picture in mind and connecting fields to one another.
Thanks for your interesting input on this subject. I'm an undergrad myself, and like other college students, must decide what options to pursue after graduation, not to mention the horrible economic climate we all face. I find it disturbing that bright young PhD's generally get inadequate payback for their hard work. No one appreciates academia anymore. But in the end, I believe it all depends on the individual and how committed/passionate he/she is to the subject, despite the economic setbacks.
Basic supply and demand. Unsurprising there is am oversupply of graduate students given the level of interest that many Grad jobs hold. I personally would overpay and make sure I got great students if I was a uni but they aren't struggling for applicants. Engineering grad in the UK, the price of working in an area you care about instead of oil and gas or banking, probably 10k, close again down to a PhD and doing incredibly interesting work. The first price is easy to pay. The second one, well it depends on the topic. Money happiness
@SimperingSimpleton I think that this is a fresh glitch on UA-cam’s end; it had not been there before. Hopefully it will be corrected soon - though UA-cam has done much worse and left it uncorrected in the past.
Thank you for kind comment! My own thinking is that people often pursue PhDs because they consider this to be the "default path" for highly intelligent and academically successful individuals. Many of them probably could have done well on other paths as well, but they need to look around and examine all the options, their benefits, and their opportunity costs. Sincerely, G. Stolyarov II
I think it is a great error to assume that only through formal degree programs can a person learn about the humanities or advance literature, culture, social sciences, or the arts. Even the very great thinkers and authors studied in humanities programs were often autodidacts who worked outside (and sometimes even against) the formal academic institutions of their time. Both the Renaissance and the Enlightenment occurred in spite of, not because, the university system.
What I don't understand is that you claim that PhD students don't get paid well, but this depends on the student. Since it seems you have high marks, you would have qualified to make way more money while doing your PhD. A friend of my negotiated her salary in order to get paid 50-60k a year instead of the usual 20-30k a year. By the way, she's a theoretical math student. On top of that she could get her own student grants that go directly to her. Also, I believe that a new professor at my university did the same thing. That being said, I do believe that a bunch of people do PhDs because they don't know what else to do or can't find a job in their field. That would be ok, if they had a proper plan. **For anyone thinking about getting a PhD, please at least think about it as much as I have. Just "hoping" to get something out of your PhD is not enough, you have to plan things ahead: In my case, I'm finishing my master's degree and I started applying for jobs in my field. However, the more I think about it, the more I realize that maybe I should do a PhD. The reasons are the following: any job I get right now will probably pay me 40-60k/year for the first couple years. But if I do a PhD, I can probably get at least 30k/year from the PhD while getting all the advantages of being a student (cheaper groceries, tickets to events, computers, flights, etc) AND money from various grants/bursaries. I'm considering staying in the field I'm working in at the moment so spending another 4 years with experts in the field will only help me hone my skills. On top of all this, as I am a physics student, I spend a decent amount of time programming. In this day and age, programming is valuable if you are amazing at it. The PhD will also give me the flexibility to sharpen my programming skills in the most marketable way. By the end of the PhD, I will be a pro in Python, which is a very popular language in Science AND software development. And so, I will most likely be able to find a ~100k programming job after my PhD if I decide I want to leave academia. Or, I can always work at a consulting firm for ~100k, too. Finally, I've been reading about and doing business for a few years now which I am leveraging in order to provide myself a passive income of about ~10k/year during my PhD. So, if I take everything into account, I can reasonably make 45k/year during my PhD which I can definitely live with. I will also be able to pay off my debt with no interest during my PhD, which I'd have to pay interest if I got a job (which in my case would cost about ~5.5k minimum after 4 years). AND SO, it seems clear to me that a PhD will be advantageous IN MY CASE. For the most part, I agree with this video, schools are squeezing out the most they can out of students and nobody is warning these students. By the way, I considered an actuary at one point, too!
50-60k a year is a joke after spending over a decade doing a postdocc+phd program, when you could just get a 4 year bachelors and make 70k off the bat as nurse. 5 years with experience you can have a main job and a part time job working 60hrs a week and make around 150k a year. Nothing matters other than money. I can learn on my free time.
Foreigners such as Indians and Chinese who are studying in US graduate schools and obtain the PhD (usually in technology) oftentimes have a shoe-in to great entry level jobs at companies such as Google and Microsoft. So while you're reasoning that your time could have been better spent and that schools are on the take, these foreign fresh PhDs are snatching up the prime jobs in the US market.
I beg to differ. I concur with your statement that the point of a PhD is research but some teachers/researchers also said otherwise. Just like in the private sector, not everyone play by the rules in Academia. Some teachers sugar coat or over sell the PhD experience like "don't worry, even if research turns out not to be your thing, the skills you'll learn will serve you well in the business/private sector". BS ! My experience proved them wrong. Right after graduating my master's degree , I enrolled in a business-oriented and technical course in a private school. There were many PhDs involved in the same program as I was, who had no other choice because their current skills didn't fit the job market. The worst thing about it was a piece of news a distinguished teacher-researcher who happened to be in a PhD selection jury told me. He said they were granting way more PhD scholarships than necessary, in comparison with the permanent research positions available in Academia and private companies. To be specific ,I'm talking about something that happened in France in 2010.
I did read some writing of yours while this video was playing, so I may have missed part of it. I think one thing you left out is that for science fields, you will never be hired for a research position without a PhD. So if you want a job where you do science research, you have to get a PhD. This does not mean it's in the individual's material interest. And I completely agree with your analysis that the PhD should (mostly) be a leisure pursuit in this day and age.
Great video! I also graduated with a Masters in Mathematics, and decided not to do a PhD. My reasons are along the same lines too. I made a video about my experience too called" never do a PhD", too, if anyone is interested, just look it up.
im an undergrad right now working on my B.S. in mathematics/education, i would like to then earn a graduate degree after i have worked for some years, i have thought about earning my PHD but a PHD takes like 8 years, a masters degree takes 2 or 3 years, so im going to go with my Masters, the only downside of not earning a PHD would be not having to be an actual professor or having the title "doctor" in your name, and ive got a life to live, and i have a great major, so im not even worried about money also i have worked my butt off so that i won't have to take out loans for my bachelors, being really careful. also i would never go to an undergraduate school and do a "pre professional program" because for instance like someone studying medicine, that would take 8 years plus 1 or 2 years of residency, and that would rack up a lot of student loan debt, and after you earn your bachelors to get into medical school or law school, you wouldn't be able to get a job with a bachelors degree in "pre medicine" pre professional programs are too expensive. im glad i can find a job with my bachelors degree and then go onto graduate school.
Friend, your video and the way you put your argument , I am impressed by it. I recommend this video to be displayed to every grad student before they enroll in PhD programme. Because most of them are just in-realistic like as you seen in the comment section here. Truly, you did a great job. Thank you for making this video and it is really very nice piece of research by you. THANK YOU. I agree 110% what you said.
I teach history in a middle school. I just finished my PHD in economics. There is no way I am leaving my job in the near future. The pay increase for every position I look into is minimal, and the benefits in my current position are much better than anything I have seen. I found that I am much better off staying in my position and taking on freelance or adjunct work to pay off the student loans. I could not be happier in my current position though, so I guess it does not really matter.
A friend of mine has posted a nice quote on Facebook that I found quite ineresting. It read: "Teachers are not in Academia for the income, but rather for the outcome." Whoever goes for a PhD is very likely to understand that they are not choosing the most economically rewarding option. People simply do not have the same goals. They are not all after material gains.
Yes, mathematics is highly useful in many fields. (I have a bachelor’s degree in it myself.) However, it is possible to get remunerative mathematical work without pursuing post-undergraduate degree studies. Professional certifications (e.g., in actuarial science, finance, accounting, programming) certainly rely on mathematical knowledge and open work opportunities - but they are much less expensive (in terms of both time and money) than a classroom-oriented multi-year degree program.
I think your comment assumes that dealing with immense frustration teaches people to become better at handling less frustrating situations. I do not agree with this “what does not kill me makes me stronger” line of argument. Rather, the highly frustrating and painful situations only serve to weed people out and retain people who had the preexisting ability to deal with them. But they add nothing to the skill sets of either those who endure them or those who crack under the pressure.
I know this is an old video, but the fact that (some) PhD students get paid to get their education is a very positive aspect of PhD programs. I mean, getting paid 15-30 thousand dollars to get a Bachelor's degree would be amazing. But when you only get paid that much, it's a drawback? And of course some jobs require a PhD, some are paid better if you have a PhD, a PhD tends to be necessary for many leadership roles, etc.
(5) I do not agree that a PhD is a prerequisite for research - as long as one has the free time and the financial resources to pursue it. In some fields, research may be costlier than in others (e.g., if specialized equipment is required) - but the exponential improvement in computing and the rise of such phenomena as DIY biology show that, to make discoveries, one needs primarily to have a lot of determination and personal merit.
Although I also feel you are generally correct, lifetime earnings are not the only metric with which to evaluate an academic's career prospects vs the private sector. There are numerous non-fiduciary benefits such as a lower work week, sabbaticals, greater agency in regards to the direction of one's work and daily activity, better job security, as well as (perhaps) greater potential for intellectually stimulating colleagues and friends.
While I agree that one does not need to be wealthy to be happy, there is a certain level of prosperity (the “middle middle-class” level) that is needed to be protected against the most common contingencies. I do not dispute the possibility of some non-monetary gains, but again those are consumption goods for most people, unless one is really an exceptional academician who can expect to eventually get a very lucrative teaching/research position.
Indeed. Success is fundamentally about the person, not the degree(s) - and a person who has earned a degree is fundamentally the same person both before and after he/she earned the degree. Some people have decided to forgo certain degrees in order to directly pursue career, financial, or other successes earlier - and as a result they have a few extra years to make those successes happen.
For 20 hours of researching with a top professor in the field (not TA), I get about $30,000 a semester/$60,000 for the academic year. This includes tuition, free health and dental insurance for my family of four, and about $9,000 a semester to live on. I will be able to work in the summers on projects that are relevant to my future to earn money. When I graduate, I can be a professor, work as an administrator at a college, work at a research center, etc. No loans, great education and future.
Unfortunately, the MD/PhD degree combination has the drawback of requiring immense amounts of both time and money - as well as very little compensation to start with (during a new MD’s residency years). My key advice is to never incur educational debt. If one can pay for the MD/PhD fully out of pocket and has no greater opportunity costs and will enjoy it greatly, then it may be a good choice (for a small subset of people). Otherwise, an “earn while you learn” approach is greatly preferable.
i have found that to be the leading thought in my mind during my highschool years... as to what i would do when i had completed and then decide on which direction to put myself on.. its always been my "feeling"that university would in the future be a non compulsary platform for self growth to a degree.. as much of the growth is self directed and self taught instead of indoctrined into the human mind.. which leads one to be a product made for one specified activity.. where as the human mind is ever so elastic in its ability to mould into the evolutionary path of multi skilled and increased ability to develop what woud later allow increased sucess in the quick change of society that is in occurance in this moment in earths populous... the way will be to be the creator... which will intern make for a very productive and progressive change by the people.. and a flourishment of the future.. away from the current constraints.. thanks for the thoughts shared.. and im sure for those that seek guidence this will empower them to make it happen them selves and not be reliant on someone to give them a employment opportunity.
Meanwhile, I did pursue specialized professional educations in insurance (in addition to working full-time) which have so far made me a net profit and seven (soon to be eight) professional designations. With all this, I had enough free time to pursue independent intellectual projects and all-round personal refinement - a kind of “well-roundedness” that is often overlooked in narrowly specialized graduate-level studies.
I think the fundamental student skills needed for success in the job market are already present when the students enter universities. Some universities create an image of prestige by attracting students who are already (because of personal traits) highly intelligent, motivated, and likelier to succeed. In other situations, some “elite” universities serve as networking forums for children of wealthy families (irrespective of merit or lack thereof), but the price of admission is far too high.
I'm employed in that world, and you're basically quite correct. One thing that complicates it, and adds to the frustration of students who start to wonder what the hell they are doing in that setting, is that academics sometimes make terrible administrators, and PhD programs very rarely teach those skills. You get into the stream from the bottom up, as a scut worker cum adjunct lecturer, and if you have native skills, great. If not, you're a highly paid footler who sleeps though meetings.
PhD programs in technical field are 90% Chinese students who need to honor their family because in China for some reason having a piece of paper with "PhD" written on it actually means something. In Western countries it means nothing unless you explicitly want to do research or university teaching as a career path.
You misunderstand my point. Sure, PhDs have contributed a lot to human innovation - but not because they are PhDs. They would have made similar contributions had they never set foot in a PhD program. They made the innovative contributions because of who they were/are as individuals and their internal determination, persistence, intelligence, and creativity - including a willingness to question their contemporary institutions and conventions.
I am in Graduate school for a MSc in Financial Mathematics. Working in the derivatives market today does require a higher degree, so I can say with some certainty that it's necessary. However, a lack of experience places me in a bad position. I have been considering more of getting into the Actuarial field since my institute has large connections to industry and since Actuaries deal with valuation of derivatives, interest rate models, etc, etc... it's still in my realm of study and reachable.
With your background, you should find yourself able to pass the first 4 actuarial exams with a modicum of preparation. This would position you well for a job in the field.
(6) Historically, many paradigm-changing discoveries were made by people who were not within the formal establishments of the fields which the discoveries affected. Galileo, Darwin, Mendel, and Einstein come to mind. In the humanities, this trend is even more pronounced. The entire Renaissance and Enlightenment took place outside of the academia of their time, and dragged academia along (reluctantly) toward better ways of thinking.
I'm currently an undergrad senior wanting to pursue a PhD in Clinical Psychology. I, on my own, through much reflection and meditation, figured out the cons against going for a PhD. The primary cost is my youth. I'm 20, and I'll be like 25 when I'm done. 5 years later I'll be 30. The second is of course debt and not much income return from when I get a PhD. While getting a PhD, of course, very difficult four years... But, I still am going for a PhD. I'm not doing it for the money, I am doing it
I only have an MBA with honors. I have still not been paid for three university lectureships in France in 2010! This was my second time as a visiting prof and the pay was cut in half from a few years ago, and I still don't even have the last pay, as mentioned. We only get paid twice a year here. It's once a year in Italy and they also stiff people with pay. My pal here in Paris has been totally drained by PhD work and seems as though she is not going to make it.
To say that you don't care if you end up poor your entire life is not realistic. Trust me, if you really did end up poor for your entire life after putting the time and energy into a Ph.D., you would care very much.
Have to agree with this. And in many cases, it is sometimes not even worthwhile to pursue a masters degree. In my field (engineering), there is little to no value add for having further levels of education beyond the bachelors degree. In fact, it is sometimes a hinderance in that employers will specifically target people with singular degrees because a) they generally have more job experience and b) they won't command the 'premium' that many masters degree students expect
Those areas may indeed be more remunerative, but one should also consider the opportunity cost of the time spent in graduate school, where one's immediate earning ability is very low. Also, the ability of a young person today to expect a job simply as a result of having a particular kind of degree has been greatly diminished.
I did not claim that the abuse of PhD students by professors is ubiquitous - only that it occurs often enough to be noteworthy. My more universal claims are (1) that there is a significant opportunity cost to pursuing a PhD and (2) that the monetary benefits of doing so are questionable in many cases.
@userjhu In terms of economic potential, high school and undergraduate college are likely to improve one’s prospects in today’s world (although they are both highly sub-optimal systems today and could be run much less expensively and with far greater quality). My argument here is that earning a PhD does not, in many cases, result in economic value added; a PhD is a consumption good, not an investment good. Those who want to pursue it knowing it be consumption - I have no problem with.
First, I have seen similar sentiments from people who do hold PhDs. You have only to look at some of the comments on this video for confirmation of this. Second, the people who do not voice such regrets may do so for several reasons: (i) selection bias, (ii) attempt to excuse their own decision (the same tendency of which you are accusing me, except working the other way), or (iii) their own status of having reached the exploitative side of the PhD "experience."
@GStolyarovII: ...recently said in an interview that should there be a choice to either monetize Wikipedia or shut it down, they will choose the former without hesitation.
I've studied Greek philology in the university of Athens (Greece) and right now I'm doing a Master on Special Education. The goal is to get a PhD. However, it will be very difficult to find work based on what I've studied. I make way more money trough the family business which didn't really require any diplomas. So, studying is more like a hobby now.
If you went into academia and you found this video because you were disheartened by what you have been experiencing so far, know that you don’t need to teach in America. Teaching is the ultimate career for those with wanderlust (both in the university setting and k-12). I moved to Korea for work. University gigs here don’t make as much as tenured professors in the states (my roommate’s father is a tenured history professor and he makes 90k a year), but the pay here isn’t that bad. Most university gigs for foreign hires pay around 42-50k per year, but include free rent in nice apartments near campus so you end up with a pretty decent disposable income. You also get 3-4 months paid vacation. I’m here for the time being but have no plans to make it my home permanently. I’m also looking into university gigs in other countries and travel quite a bit during my vacations. All is not lost, fellow academics! Don’t just apply for academic jobs in the US though! Go abroad!
Thanks. I'm thinking of going to Japan
We need to show this to as many students considering a Phd as possible so that there are more vacant professor jobs ;)
Rule 1 : Never look at the money when considering or pursuing a Ph.D. Rule 2 : Look at the money when considering or pursing a Ph.D.
I thought this guy was a little strange at first, but his thoughts are incredibly well reasoned. I think anyone who wants a PhD should watch this first. I went for a Phd and left with a masters. For me, it amounted to an enormous waste of time and energy. Although I was paid a decent stipend, it also came at a significant opportunity cost in terms of lost wages. I wish I had talked to more people like him before I went for a PhD.
A phd should finish alot faster than it takes but PI's are using phd students to get cheap labor. That "free stipend" is basically just slave labor. You can get paid more on the open market working a minimum wage job
2 Years into a PHD my husband abandoned with a 2nd master's degree and got a great job. While colleagues with the PHD in his engineering field are still having trouble (up to 5 years or more) finding a decent job.
A PhD is wanted by cutting edge research laboratories; most engineering companies only care about someone having productive skills.
Mrs. B I'm calling bull shit. Only 2.1% of engineering PhDs are unemployed.
a very reasonable, eloquent presentation
by a Bond villain
.
You have a fantastic hypnotic quality...the tone of your voice, the calmness of your demeanor, the cadence of your speech, timed pauses, and fixation of your pupils... I am somewhat reminded of 1960s-1970s era documentaries when Iisten to you.
He doesn't blink.
WTF. How is this possible? Is he a robot from the future?!
Good observation! :)
0 0
@@KennyIsMyDog a terminator
I think it has to do with the record speed!
Thank you for sharing your experience and frustrations. Unfortunately, all too many people today are in a position similar to yours. My best wishes to you in overcoming these challenges through creativity, hard work, and entrepreneurship. May you create something great and profit immensely from it.
Mr Stolyarovll,
This is one of the best videos that I have seen around UA-cam. Your arguments and explanations are very well supported. I have always had the idea that people who pursue a PhD do so because they lack other necessary abilities and qualities that are required to shine in other fields of life.
phd is great when you love love academia, in particular research and writing .. otherwise there is no reason to spend your life on that because it is very demanding in terms of time and there r better ways of getting better salaries. plus pursuing phd when you dont love research will result in getting a position where someone else is better suited.
I'm interested in getting a Ph.D within a few years. I think the model you are suggesting is essentially correct. However, at least in the field(s) of humanities, there are innovative models for earning a doctorate. Distance learning and low residency options are now becoming more popular. I think this will become a new trend that will change Ph.Ds as we understand them.
You bring up an interesting and valid point. I agree that any options that would reduce the cost (including the opportunity cost) as well as the location constraints of pursuing a PhD would render such a pursuit an incrementally preferable choice (perhaps significantly so). More generally, I am quite favorably disposed toward formal education programs that confer certifications and credentials as a result of self-study, followed by some manner of evaluation (exams or graded assignments). Indeed, for the past five years, while employed full-time, I have continually studied on my own to obtain various insurance credentials (of which I have ten at present).
My challenge in this video is aimed at the traditional, rigidly hierarchical method of pursuing a PhD, embedded in a 20th-century legacy academic system that views the graduate student as a source of cheap labor. If some PhD programs can instead embrace radically different models - including distance learning, a focus on individual student achievement (rather than serving the professor/advisor), and an accommodation for people learning at their own paces - then all the more power to them.
G. Stolyarov II It's already happening. For example, I'm very interested in pursuing a Ph.D in Divinity. At a typical American University, if you don't get the free ride, you're looking at a cost of $50k. Right now, in South Africa, there are a handful of Ph.Ds with a total cost of $10k. It does also extend beyond the Religious sphere as well.
A technology-sector company I worked at went through a tough financial period and eliminated two of its employees. The company chose to eliminate the only two guys with PhD's, retaining everyone else. The two guys with PhD's had been with the company much longer than several of the guys who kept their jobs. Those eliminated were a Math PhD and a Physics PhD.
The camera does not record at a high enough framerate to capture his split-second blinks.
Helped me make sense of some things related to my own graduate studies. Very well said. Thank you for posting!
That is making the rather strong assumption that the money one can make while pursuing a PhD is enough for a decent level of sustenance. It is enough for subsistence (if one is willing to work all of one’s waking hours as a teaching assistant) - unless an accident, health problem, or unexpected property loss occurs.
I feel like he is sucking my soul with his eyes.
Nimbus Cloud hahahaha
As I stated, I had most of my tuition covered by a merit scholarship and actually made money in college. I just wanted to make more money and saw the huge opportunity cost of spending 4+ years in a PhD program. As a result, I own a house, have a decent amount of savings, and absolutely no non-mortgage debt in my life, ever.
I recognize that there may be non-financial motives to obtaining a PhD, but at that point it becomes a consumption good, not an “investment”. Furthermore, studying most of the same subjects can be accomplished independently in a less formal setting.
the title of this video should be "why I chose not do a PhD."
in Australia, I checked the uni policy for phd acceptance, and it said there are multiple of assessors of phd thesis, one of whom must be based outside of country, and that even if the thesis is not accepted right away, which happens about 20 percent of time or so, they give you an extra year to revise and resubmit the thesis, so it is not that the advisor can simply accept or reject your thesis as he chooses, there is a long and serious process involved in assessing the thesis, sometimes up to a year before the assessors give their assessment of thesis. also, who knows if the 16% figure for professors is valid everywhere, pretty sure that is from America. this figure could be less or more depending on each country. about half of phd students in Australia go to academia and the other half go and work for some other industry or company, phd is about gaining research skills. its not for everyone.
My problem with the PhD, in essence, is that the system’s idiosyncrasies (subordination to established academic figures, the “grunt work” forced on the graduate students to benefit their professors, lack of adequate reward for the work performed, extensive opportunity costs, and the conceit of many institutions that they and only they can teach the material properly) have come to overshadow any actual learning or valuable hard work that take place.
Your speech and behaviour is very deliberate and reminds me profoundly of someone with whom I attended school. Your ability to engage and interest the audience lack somewhat on the emotive side. You draw sweeping generalizations that are provably false, yet the concepts you evoke are true generally. The way you speak betrays your idealism and ego-centrism; those are not only your unique flaws, but the very sources of your mental acumen.
The essence of the issue is simply that working for one is less profitable than working for many. Granted, a PhD makes you much more valuable. Nonetheless, your value to one person yields diminishing returns while your value to people can be a linear function; unlimited profitability. If you are providing value, you only need set the price to receive your profit. Price of course, is limited by perception of value. Entrepreneurship is the art of providing unlimited value without diminishing returns.
There's an obvious selection problem - many who do a phd are not interested in a higher wage but value doing research higher and thus choose to go for a lower-paying job. There is no good "randomized control trial" of randomly giving PhDs to people and seeing what the effect of it is in a more general population.
Truthfully you nailed it at the end. Higher eduction as a consumer good is where it got by... about the 1980's. Initially it was about advancing society, that about jobs. When the jobs dried up it became about sports, then the sponsorship for sports stopped yielding good results so it became about politics and social justice. Now all of the afore mentioned have fallen in a heap so it's about being ear-bashed into a lifetime of debt slavery in misery, stress and poor health.
A.G.
Much depends on your personal situation and the potential (if any) of said program to improve your life and prospects. I would recommend that you consider factors such as (1) the opportunity cost of time, (2) the possible difference (in either direction) to your future earnings, (3) the material standard of living you would have during and after the MA/PhD program, and (4) what opportunities you would have to pursue and receive credit for meaningful accomplishments with or without the program.
Two actuarial societies offer examinations: the Casualty Actuarial Society (CAS) and the Society of Actuaries (SOA). The first five examinations (1/P, 2/FM, MLC, 3F/MFE, and 4/C) are offered jointly by the two societies. Higher-level exams differ between the two societies, and which path you pursue will depend on whether your interest is in property/casualty insurance (CAS) or life/health insurance and pensions (SOA). The SOA will open its own property/casualty track starting Fall 2013.
@Counterop In the US, the initial actuarial exams are offered jointly by the Casualty Actuarial Society and the Society of Actuaries - so it is one track. For the upper-level exams, the CAS and SOA follow their own separate ways. The CAS path is for actuaries in property and casualty insurance. The SOA path is for actuaries in life and health insurance.
I have little experience with PhD programs outside the United States. Anecdotal reports from friends and others suggest that, in the UK and Canada, the PhD experience is more reasonable, less exploitative, and better priced. In some other parts of the world, where employment opportunities are more generally limited and the few opportunities available are based largely on formal credentials, a PhD may be a decent choice.
Interesting point of view Stolyariv. I just be accepted into Phd Moral and Political Philosophie. The conditions of labor market are very hard, but i´m very motivated!
I learned this after graduating with my bachelors.. because of health reasons I took longer to finish school,but I always wanted to go for phd. After struggling to land a job in my field I've decided I am tired of the rat race. I love my field, I worked in four different labs during my undergrad ,but no one cares unless you got 2-5 years of industry experience. I feel I got a lesson in humility because I used to think you had to go for phd to be somebody. Real life taught me better.. now I know why so many Phds I saw were struggling post docs and not in industry making big bucks.
I did not say that these innovators were born knowing how to innovate. Surely, they need to work hard and to become educated. My point is that they can often educate themselves by seeking out the relevant literature and experiences. In our increasingly formalistic society, having had a “canon” experience such as a PhD has become more of a hurdle to jump over to get into certain occupations, rather than a practical prerequisite for being able to actually *perform* in those occupations.
I want to go into secondary education administration, and I plan to get an Ed.D. which should pay for itself 10x over. It will be mounds easier to become a principal or superintendent with that degree, although I wouldnt recommend it for anyone else in secondary education, as there is not a need for it. It sucks that we have to go through that nowadays, but as long as you get a part time job in the field you wish to go into during graduate school, you should be fine going into the job market. For example, I will substitute maybe once or twice a week in order to get that experience under my belt. When I leave graduate school as a dcotor, Ill admit it will be annoying that you have the capacity to teach graduate school students and have to teach high school students, but once that two years by state mandate is up, you have a golden ticket to almost any open position in the State. Long and annoying road, but what isnt these days lol
I have a PhD and I don't regret it.
The unemployment, crisis etc it's not related with pursuing or not a PhD.
It would be more interesting discuss what we can do to change the situation in the world. Why we have this problems....
An interesting discussion Mr.Stolyarov. In Australia many PhD graduates can't get a job after years and years of studying and then have to go back and get a teaching degree. If your motivating factor is a good job at the end of study then it is worth seriously thinking about the points you raise. The noble pursuit of knowledge does have to be weighed against starving or a life in retail.
@Alex1SUN Thank you for your comments. In the situation that you describe, I agree that pursuing a PhD would make economic sense. It would also raise one's standard of living while one is in the country in which one is pursuing the PhD.
Imagine if this man wrote a dissertation...
Im 30, I have a degree in finance and an mba from Canisius College, my GPA was arounf 2.5 as an undergrad. I was on academic probation in my sophomore yeah and went to a community college for a semester to redeem myself and reenter Canisius. Ive been in the workforce for 7 years since getting my BS and have zero student loan debt and an annual income of $80,000 at one of the largest banks in the world, im happy. I didnt have to be the smartest or hardest working to achieve what I wanted.
i would not get a phd for money, phd should be done for love of knowledge. Yes it is pricey but knowledge is far better than earthly possessions. If you want earthly possessions get them a different way lol
***** I would agree many people get a phd for that reason, but there are others who purely want to achieve great knowledge, and do not even mention it.
I think a PhD is not just for money but more money is important if you want to afford things like cryonics.
***** " A man who has never gone to school may steal from a freight car; but if he has a university education, he may steal the whole railroad. " -- Theodore Roosevelt
One of my favorite quotes. I do not see a correlation between knowledge and morals. I know just as many horrible people who are extremely smart as I do un intelligent people who are horrible morally. Many killers are extremely smart and find it intellectually satisfying to outsmart a detective. Likewise many computer hackers and thief's are very well educated, at least in terms of computer tech. Then you have all the corrupt and evil politicians and rulers around the world from past to present who have done more to kill more people than any un educated person could possibly DREAM.
I think MOST people intend to do good, or want to do good, but end up doing evil and are ashamed of themselves. What do I mean ? Well think of someone on a diet, they want to eat right, they want to loose weight, but so often they eat something along the way they were not supposed to eat and feel guilty about it. Well same thing with life in general, we want to do the right thing, but the right thing can be an uncomfortable choice. For instance we know that most of our oil comes from saudi arabia who then turns around and funds terrorism, oppresses women, throws homosexuals off buildings and so on and so forth with this money. The right thing for all of us to do is to demand our government get oil from somewhere else, OR use far less oil in our lives, but nobody actually does that. We could very well do so, but then the prices would go way up and that would simply be a big inconvenience for us. So we look the other way. I am guilty of this too, most of us are. This is but 1 example of how being smart does not cause people to magically care about other people, especially at the cost of their own comforts.
***** Ya I know they been doing it for 1400 years now. However with less money they would not be able to fund terrorism as much.
Joshua, you have just demonstrated how little you comprehend the nature of a PhD
To be honest in a growing number of cases: bachelors and associates degrees are not economically wise. While education is important, collage is increasingly counter productive. Basically sets you back 5 to 15 years financially. And you don't get pay that offsets that hardship.
Very well stated and succinctly put. Best advice - period!
Thank you for watching and for your good words!
Welcome
@Hellerium The alternative is to take tests for professional designations in the field of your choice. I majored in economics, mathematics, and German during college and passed actuarial exams on the side, which allowed me to enter the insurance field upon graduation. The professions that allow advancement (or job qualification) on the basis of passing self-study courses and examinations are a viable (and often more remunerative) choice compared to pursuing a PhD program.
No, it is my own house, which I have owned for over three years. This further reinforces my point. How many PhD students can say that they own a house? Not pursuing a PhD helped enable me to purchase one.
Fair enough, but is it easy compared to an office job - which is the alternative for most people who would go to graduate school? The advantage of an office job (if it is chosen well and if one works efficiently on the job) is the absence of "homework" and the ability to make one's time outside the office truly one's own. The other emerging alternative is telecommuting, which is even more flexible.
not blinking is a telltale sign of psychopathy
@lengthyounarther It is a different microphone that is older than the one I use when I am not looking at a camera on my computer.
I also agree with your later comments. All hopes now are on the abilities of innovative individuals, who choose to follow unorthodox paths, to counteract the systemic inefficiencies and injustices of our time.
I agree with some points here. I ended up going into medicine and recommend this path to high achieving students here in Australia. It can depend on the PhD you choose. Some departments treat these students like slave labor, honour and master students get a pretty bad deal as well. You should choose this pathway if you truly want an academic career.
A lot of the changes to degrees now have been motivated by revenue for the university. I remember my first bachelor was 3 years - It has now been extended to a 4 year program. So I am not surprised graduate students are forced to retake subjects.
You do a PhD out of love for your field, not for a better job or better income. If you want a PhD, I suggest finding a job first, have a family. Be secure in your income and do a PhD on the side as part-time if you have to.
Getting that first job is the most difficult. After the first job, applying for the second and third job becomes easier.
I agree that doing experimental science is, in some cases, more difficult outside of academia, but even there emerging technologies are offering unprecedented opportunities. DIY biology and distributed computing are cases in point.
@GStolyarovII:
The decline in contributors may be partly explained due to the fact that now all big topics have been pretty much covered by English Wikipedia, and now people find less to write about. On a bright side, for this year Wikimedia Foundation raised over 16 million from over 500K contributors. So while we certainly agree it would have been much better to get so many unemployed PhDs to contribute to it, I think Wikipedia isn't doing so bad right now.
I couldn't find a job and now I'm in Graduate school. I'm 27 and not getting any younger and increasing my debt another 40k to 80k with extremely high rate unsubsidized loans. By the time I get out I'll be 29 with little to no relevant work experience and substantial interest payments. I am beyond afraid. I have been saying to others many of things things you said. I do know that for me to reach my goals, entrepreneurship is the key. Thanks for reaffirming that belief.
The trade-off is not merely a function of time, and it does not need to be so severe (or exist at all, in some cases) if one has other attitudes (e.g., a focus toward meliorism, general erudition, efficiency, and individual expression). Many of the great Renaissance Men of history - Leonardo, Newton, Leibniz, Franklin, Jefferson, Goethe, Borodin - managed to make cutting-edge innovations in numerous disciplines, while keeping the big picture in mind and connecting fields to one another.
Thanks for your interesting input on this subject. I'm an undergrad myself, and like other college students, must decide what options to pursue after graduation, not to mention the horrible economic climate we all face. I find it disturbing that bright young PhD's generally get inadequate payback for their hard work. No one appreciates academia anymore. But in the end, I believe it all depends on the individual and how committed/passionate he/she is to the subject, despite the economic setbacks.
Basic supply and demand. Unsurprising there is am oversupply of graduate students given the level of interest that many Grad jobs hold. I personally would overpay and make sure I got great students if I was a uni but they aren't struggling for applicants.
Engineering grad in the UK, the price of working in an area you care about instead of oil and gas or banking, probably 10k, close again down to a PhD and doing incredibly interesting work. The first price is easy to pay. The second one, well it depends on the topic.
Money happiness
Truly insightful, this definitely provokes second thoughts on paying for a Phd to get into a better financial situation.
@SimperingSimpleton I think that this is a fresh glitch on UA-cam’s end; it had not been there before. Hopefully it will be corrected soon - though UA-cam has done much worse and left it uncorrected in the past.
Thank you for kind comment! My own thinking is that people often pursue PhDs because they consider this to be the "default path" for highly intelligent and academically successful individuals. Many of them probably could have done well on other paths as well, but they need to look around and examine all the options, their benefits, and their opportunity costs.
Sincerely,
G. Stolyarov II
I think it is a great error to assume that only through formal degree programs can a person learn about the humanities or advance literature, culture, social sciences, or the arts. Even the very great thinkers and authors studied in humanities programs were often autodidacts who worked outside (and sometimes even against) the formal academic institutions of their time. Both the Renaissance and the Enlightenment occurred in spite of, not because, the university system.
What I don't understand is that you claim that PhD students don't get paid well, but this depends on the student. Since it seems you have high marks, you would have qualified to make way more money while doing your PhD. A friend of my negotiated her salary in order to get paid 50-60k a year instead of the usual 20-30k a year. By the way, she's a theoretical math student. On top of that she could get her own student grants that go directly to her. Also, I believe that a new professor at my university did the same thing.
That being said, I do believe that a bunch of people do PhDs because they don't know what else to do or can't find a job in their field. That would be ok, if they had a proper plan.
**For anyone thinking about getting a PhD, please at least think about it as much as I have. Just "hoping" to get something out of your PhD is not enough, you have to plan things ahead:
In my case, I'm finishing my master's degree and I started applying for jobs in my field. However, the more I think about it, the more I realize that maybe I should do a PhD. The reasons are the following: any job I get right now will probably pay me 40-60k/year for the first couple years. But if I do a PhD, I can probably get at least 30k/year from the PhD while getting all the advantages of being a student (cheaper groceries, tickets to events, computers, flights, etc) AND money from various grants/bursaries. I'm considering staying in the field I'm working in at the moment so spending another 4 years with experts in the field will only help me hone my skills. On top of all this, as I am a physics student, I spend a decent amount of time programming. In this day and age, programming is valuable if you are amazing at it. The PhD will also give me the flexibility to sharpen my programming skills in the most marketable way. By the end of the PhD, I will be a pro in Python, which is a very popular language in Science AND software development. And so, I will most likely be able to find a ~100k programming job after my PhD if I decide I want to leave academia. Or, I can always work at a consulting firm for ~100k, too. Finally, I've been reading about and doing business for a few years now which I am leveraging in order to provide myself a passive income of about ~10k/year during my PhD. So, if I take everything into account, I can reasonably make 45k/year during my PhD which I can definitely live with. I will also be able to pay off my debt with no interest during my PhD, which I'd have to pay interest if I got a job (which in my case would cost about ~5.5k minimum after 4 years). AND SO, it seems clear to me that a PhD will be advantageous IN MY CASE.
For the most part, I agree with this video, schools are squeezing out the most they can out of students and nobody is warning these students. By the way, I considered an actuary at one point, too!
50-60k a year is a joke after spending over a decade doing a postdocc+phd program, when you could just get a 4 year bachelors and make 70k off the bat as nurse. 5 years with experience you can have a main job and a part time job working 60hrs a week and make around 150k a year. Nothing matters other than money. I can learn on my free time.
@@pimpnamedslickback7780 really? Nothing matters other than money? Jeez I hope that got you far
Foreigners such as Indians and Chinese who are studying in US graduate schools and obtain the PhD (usually in technology) oftentimes have a shoe-in to great entry level jobs at companies such as Google and Microsoft. So while you're reasoning that your time could have been better spent and that schools are on the take, these foreign fresh PhDs are snatching up the prime jobs in the US market.
just had to watch your video till the end to get the answer to my question! you make a lot of sense bro! keep it coming!
I find it curious that he didn't directly mention research as a reason for pursuing a PHD, considering that's kinda the whole point.
I beg to differ. I concur with your statement that the point of a PhD is research but some teachers/researchers also said otherwise. Just like in the private sector, not everyone play by the rules in Academia. Some teachers sugar coat or over sell the PhD experience like "don't worry, even if research turns out not to be your thing, the skills you'll learn will serve you well in the business/private sector". BS ! My experience proved them wrong. Right after graduating my master's degree , I enrolled in a business-oriented and technical course in a private school. There were many PhDs involved in the same program as I was, who had no other choice because their current skills didn't fit the job market. The worst thing about it was a piece of news a distinguished teacher-researcher who happened to be in a PhD selection jury told me. He said they were granting way more PhD scholarships than necessary, in comparison with the permanent research positions available in Academia and private companies. To be specific ,I'm talking about something that happened in France in 2010.
I did read some writing of yours while this video was playing, so I may have missed part of it. I think one thing you left out is that for science fields, you will never be hired for a research position without a PhD. So if you want a job where you do science research, you have to get a PhD. This does not mean it's in the individual's material interest. And I completely agree with your analysis that the PhD should (mostly) be a leisure pursuit in this day and age.
Great video! I also graduated with a Masters in Mathematics, and decided not to do a PhD. My reasons are along the same lines too. I made a video about my experience too called" never do a PhD", too, if anyone is interested, just look it up.
im an undergrad right now working on my B.S. in mathematics/education, i would like to then earn a graduate degree after i have worked for some years, i have thought about earning my PHD but a PHD takes like 8 years, a masters degree takes 2 or 3 years, so im going to go with my Masters, the only downside of not earning a PHD would be not having to be an actual professor or having the title "doctor" in your name, and ive got a life to live, and i have a great major, so im not even worried about money also i have worked my butt off so that i won't have to take out loans for my bachelors, being really careful. also i would never go to an undergraduate school and do a "pre professional program" because for instance like someone studying medicine, that would take 8 years plus 1 or 2 years of residency, and that would rack up a lot of student loan debt, and after you earn your bachelors to get into medical school or law school, you wouldn't be able to get a job with a bachelors degree in "pre medicine" pre professional programs are too expensive. im glad i can find a job with my bachelors degree and then go onto graduate school.
Friend, your video and the way you put your argument , I am impressed by it. I recommend this video to be displayed to every grad student before they enroll in PhD programme. Because most of them are just in-realistic like as you seen in the comment section here. Truly, you did a great job. Thank you for making this video and it is really very nice piece of research by you. THANK YOU. I agree 110% what you said.
I teach history in a middle school. I just finished my PHD in economics. There is no way I am leaving my job in the near future. The pay increase for every position I look into is minimal, and the benefits in my current position are much better than anything I have seen. I found that I am much better off staying in my position and taking on freelance or adjunct work to pay off the student loans. I could not be happier in my current position though, so I guess it does not really matter.
A friend of mine has posted a nice quote on Facebook that I found quite ineresting. It read: "Teachers are not in Academia for the income, but rather for the outcome."
Whoever goes for a PhD is very likely to understand that they are not choosing the most economically rewarding option. People simply do not have the same goals. They are not all after material gains.
Yes, mathematics is highly useful in many fields. (I have a bachelor’s degree in it myself.) However, it is possible to get remunerative mathematical work without pursuing post-undergraduate degree studies. Professional certifications (e.g., in actuarial science, finance, accounting, programming) certainly rely on mathematical knowledge and open work opportunities - but they are much less expensive (in terms of both time and money) than a classroom-oriented multi-year degree program.
I think your comment assumes that dealing with immense frustration teaches people to become better at handling less frustrating situations. I do not agree with this “what does not kill me makes me stronger” line of argument. Rather, the highly frustrating and painful situations only serve to weed people out and retain people who had the preexisting ability to deal with them. But they add nothing to the skill sets of either those who endure them or those who crack under the pressure.
I know this is an old video, but the fact that (some) PhD students get paid to get their education is a very positive aspect of PhD programs. I mean, getting paid 15-30 thousand dollars to get a Bachelor's degree would be amazing. But when you only get paid that much, it's a drawback? And of course some jobs require a PhD, some are paid better if you have a PhD, a PhD tends to be necessary for many leadership roles, etc.
(5) I do not agree that a PhD is a prerequisite for research - as long as one has the free time and the financial resources to pursue it. In some fields, research may be costlier than in others (e.g., if specialized equipment is required) - but the exponential improvement in computing and the rise of such phenomena as DIY biology show that, to make discoveries, one needs primarily to have a lot of determination and personal merit.
One piece of absolute advice, though, is that any formal education that involves a debt burden is not worth undertaking.
That's a good attitude and I agree (sincerely)! I hope you continue with your independent pursuit of humanities and encourage others to do so as well!
Although I also feel you are generally correct, lifetime earnings are not the only metric with which to evaluate an academic's career prospects vs the private sector. There are numerous non-fiduciary benefits such as a lower work week, sabbaticals, greater agency in regards to the direction of one's work and daily activity, better job security, as well as (perhaps) greater potential for intellectually stimulating colleagues and friends.
Oh MR. Wursten, you should play again this clip.
While I agree that one does not need to be wealthy to be happy, there is a certain level of prosperity (the “middle middle-class” level) that is needed to be protected against the most common contingencies. I do not dispute the possibility of some non-monetary gains, but again those are consumption goods for most people, unless one is really an exceptional academician who can expect to eventually get a very lucrative teaching/research position.
Indeed. Success is fundamentally about the person, not the degree(s) - and a person who has earned a degree is fundamentally the same person both before and after he/she earned the degree. Some people have decided to forgo certain degrees in order to directly pursue career, financial, or other successes earlier - and as a result they have a few extra years to make those successes happen.
For 20 hours of researching with a top professor in the field (not TA), I get about $30,000 a semester/$60,000 for the academic year. This includes tuition, free health and dental insurance for my family of four, and about $9,000 a semester to live on. I will be able to work in the summers on projects that are relevant to my future to earn money. When I graduate, I can be a professor, work as an administrator at a college, work at a research center, etc. No loans, great education and future.
Unfortunately, the MD/PhD degree combination has the drawback of requiring immense amounts of both time and money - as well as very little compensation to start with (during a new MD’s residency years). My key advice is to never incur educational debt. If one can pay for the MD/PhD fully out of pocket and has no greater opportunity costs and will enjoy it greatly, then it may be a good choice (for a small subset of people). Otherwise, an “earn while you learn” approach is greatly preferable.
i have found that to be the leading thought in my mind during my highschool years... as to what i would do when i had completed and then decide on which direction to put myself on.. its always been my "feeling"that university would in the future be a non compulsary platform for self growth to a degree.. as much of the growth is self directed and self taught instead of indoctrined into the human mind.. which leads one to be a product made for one specified activity.. where as the human mind is ever so elastic in its ability to mould into the evolutionary path of multi skilled and increased ability to develop what woud later allow increased sucess in the quick change of society that is in occurance in this moment in earths populous... the way will be to be the creator... which will intern make for a very productive and progressive change by the people.. and a flourishment of the future.. away from the current constraints.. thanks for the thoughts shared.. and im sure for those that seek guidence this will empower them to make it happen them selves and not be reliant on someone to give them a employment opportunity.
Meanwhile, I did pursue specialized professional educations in insurance (in addition to working full-time) which have so far made me a net profit and seven (soon to be eight) professional designations. With all this, I had enough free time to pursue independent intellectual projects and all-round personal refinement - a kind of “well-roundedness” that is often overlooked in narrowly specialized graduate-level studies.
I think the fundamental student skills needed for success in the job market are already present when the students enter universities. Some universities create an image of prestige by attracting students who are already (because of personal traits) highly intelligent, motivated, and likelier to succeed. In other situations, some “elite” universities serve as networking forums for children of wealthy families (irrespective of merit or lack thereof), but the price of admission is far too high.
I'm employed in that world, and you're basically quite correct. One thing that complicates it, and adds to the frustration of students who start to wonder what the hell they are doing in that setting, is that academics sometimes make terrible administrators, and PhD programs very rarely teach those skills. You get into the stream from the bottom up, as a scut worker cum adjunct lecturer, and if you have native skills, great. If not, you're a highly paid footler who sleeps though meetings.
PhD programs in technical field are 90% Chinese students who need to honor their family because in China for some reason having a piece of paper with "PhD" written on it actually means something. In Western countries it means nothing unless you explicitly want to do research or university teaching as a career path.
You misunderstand my point. Sure, PhDs have contributed a lot to human innovation - but not because they are PhDs. They would have made similar contributions had they never set foot in a PhD program. They made the innovative contributions because of who they were/are as individuals and their internal determination, persistence, intelligence, and creativity - including a willingness to question their contemporary institutions and conventions.
I am in Graduate school for a MSc in Financial Mathematics. Working in the derivatives market today does require a higher degree, so I can say with some certainty that it's necessary. However, a lack of experience places me in a bad position. I have been considering more of getting into the Actuarial field since my institute has large connections to industry and since Actuaries deal with valuation of derivatives, interest rate models, etc, etc... it's still in my realm of study and reachable.
With your background, you should find yourself able to pass the first 4 actuarial exams with a modicum of preparation. This would position you well for a job in the field.
(6) Historically, many paradigm-changing discoveries were made by people who were not within the formal establishments of the fields which the discoveries affected. Galileo, Darwin, Mendel, and Einstein come to mind. In the humanities, this trend is even more pronounced. The entire Renaissance and Enlightenment took place outside of the academia of their time, and dragged academia along (reluctantly) toward better ways of thinking.
I'm currently an undergrad senior wanting to pursue a PhD in Clinical Psychology. I, on my own, through much reflection and meditation, figured out the cons against going for a PhD. The primary cost is my youth. I'm 20, and I'll be like 25 when I'm done. 5 years later I'll be 30. The second is of course debt and not much income return from when I get a PhD. While getting a PhD, of course, very difficult four years... But, I still am going for a PhD. I'm not doing it for the money, I am doing it
if the "best of the best" truly are the best, why don't they see this coming and don't make the phd?
I only have an MBA with honors. I have still not been paid for three university lectureships in France in 2010! This was my second time as a visiting prof and the pay was cut in half from a few years ago, and I still don't even have the last pay, as mentioned. We only get paid twice a year here. It's once a year in Italy and they also stiff people with pay. My pal here in Paris has been totally drained by PhD work and seems as though she is not going to make it.
To say that you don't care if you end up poor your entire life is not realistic. Trust me, if you really did end up poor for your entire life after putting the time and energy into a Ph.D., you would care very much.
Have to agree with this.
And in many cases, it is sometimes not even worthwhile to pursue a masters degree. In my field (engineering), there is little to no value add for having further levels of education beyond the bachelors degree. In fact, it is sometimes a hinderance in that employers will specifically target people with singular degrees because a) they generally have more job experience and b) they won't command the 'premium' that many masters degree students expect
Those areas may indeed be more remunerative, but one should also consider the opportunity cost of the time spent in graduate school, where one's immediate earning ability is very low. Also, the ability of a young person today to expect a job simply as a result of having a particular kind of degree has been greatly diminished.
I did not claim that the abuse of PhD students by professors is ubiquitous - only that it occurs often enough to be noteworthy. My more universal claims are (1) that there is a significant opportunity cost to pursuing a PhD and (2) that the monetary benefits of doing so are questionable in many cases.
@userjhu In terms of economic potential, high school and undergraduate college are likely to improve one’s prospects in today’s world (although they are both highly sub-optimal systems today and could be run much less expensively and with far greater quality). My argument here is that earning a PhD does not, in many cases, result in economic value added; a PhD is a consumption good, not an investment good. Those who want to pursue it knowing it be consumption - I have no problem with.
Many go into university teaching and research. The problem is if they want a family but many don't.
First, I have seen similar sentiments from people who do hold PhDs. You have only to look at some of the comments on this video for confirmation of this. Second, the people who do not voice such regrets may do so for several reasons: (i) selection bias, (ii) attempt to excuse their own decision (the same tendency of which you are accusing me, except working the other way), or (iii) their own status of having reached the exploitative side of the PhD "experience."
@GStolyarovII:
...recently said in an interview that should there be a choice to either monetize Wikipedia or shut it down, they will choose the former without hesitation.