The reason that the Clamping point control is on the 921 but not on the 921B is that the 921 doubles up as the LFO in a Moog Modular system which is also why most Moog modular systems only have one. It has a much wider frequency range than the 921B and an output amplifier to increase the output level to make it suitable for modulation. The different clamping points allow you to begin the modulation when you start a note and select the initial control voltage. The design of this VCO pre-dates the retrigger type of VCO sync but it (probably unintentionally) serves this purpose. The sync on the 921B does not retrigger the wave. The 921B VCO is known as a Phase Locked Loop with the oscillator being one component of it. The sync circuit adjusts the control voltage to keep the two waves in phase with each other and therefore at the same frequency and this sounds very different to the VCO sync that most people are used to because the wave is actually being bent to keep the phase the same.
Yes! And one of the reasons behind the implementation of Clamping in 921 and Sync in 921B resides in the possibility to made additive synthesis (with several sine waves in different frequencies) with accurate phase too!
@@unclemick-synths The raw individual outputs of the 921 and 921B are too low to be used for modulation which is why the 921 has the auxiliary output with a waveform selector switch and level control. This is actually an amplifier that boosts the output level so the VCO can be used as an LFO. The switch is there so that only one amplifier is required.
Quite interesting function. I really look forward to your review of the system 55. Your System 100 videos were very informative and fun to watch and listen to.
Thanks Tim.i bought a couple of 921 oscillators quite a while ago, just so I could get that moog sound and all the stuff online about the clamping point was very unclear.your video has now wonderfully cleared up this mystery.
Tim, another great breakdown here. I had no idea of what a "clamping point" was when I first saw this module, and going through the archives of old Moog literature was no help. You video, on the other hand, was as always both succinct and brilliant. I actually went back to this video after pausing your full System 55 breakdown so I could insert all of the notes I was thinking of inserting (writing not music) in my user manual to the System 55 based on your wonderful breakdown. You continue to make the complex understandable in a way that helps us all enjoy our equipment more often than we are frustrates with it, and that my friend, is a true gift. Thanks as always! Chris
Thanks Tim!!!! I was trying to ratchet my 960/962 setup with a Behringer 112 and was unable to get the effect I needed. I now realize how important that clamping point is in the sequencer ratcheting setup and WHY. Thanks for clarifying...now off to Sweetwater to order a 921!
Wow, you now have an oscilloscope. This is a major step.:-) It is a really useful tool, congratulations. BTW, very thorough and informative video. Thank you very much for your efforts
Seems that the "clamping point" effectively changes the starting point of the _phase_ of a given waveform. Wish it could be controlled via CV input ... .
Thanks' for posting,Tim!Always' wondered about 'clamping',on the 921?I was just listening to the 'Switched-On- Bach' albums' and wondered how much 'clamping' played a role in the different sounds' used on those albums'?
That emoji face whenever s-trig unintentionally triggered was hilarious. :P For whatever it's worth, I ditched the interface module and created some cables with a transistor/resistor circuit. One nice side effect of that is that as long as I disconnect the cable at the source end first, I've found the accidental grounds are much less likely to occur. It's been a happy accident.
Please correct me if wrong. On this VCO, “trigger” is the same as hard sync. With Clamping Point (CP) at zero, it is like most VCOs that have hard sync. Using sync to give low notes consistent attack is a standard old trick. Setting CP to non-zero values is where it makes a difference. However, our ears are somewhat insensitive to phase, so different CP levels will not always be obvious; it depends on the mix of oscillators and their frequency and sync relationships. Varied CP settings would be obvious when used at low frequencies for modulation.
Great would have been good to include some examples of the 921 in LFO mode and modulating other sources with clamped waves. The Solaris has the ability to set what it calls 'phase' to select the restart point for lfo wave forms - which is key to the voxhumana shimmer of multiple lfos.
Thanks for these videos Tim. Should I grab a 921 for an extra voice? For a VCO for my eurorack with a Moog sound? Or maybe I hsould get a 921A and 921B?
Fascinating. B has ported some interesting features over to its series. What oscilloscope are you using, Tim? It looks really great. I think they are really useful.
The oszilloscope thing was a good idea. We should watch more music via oszilloscope! 👍🥳 I would say, that "TRIG" or triggering is simply a missleading term. It's exactly what we call "SYNC" today and the clamping point determines the starting phase of the wave after getting synced. 12:22 ... i had another picture in mind 🤣
so if you put the output of another oscilator tuned one octave lower into the v-trig input you could get hard sync sounds by varying the frequency of this oscilator with an envelope or lfo, and using the clamping point control could vary the timbre. Interesting!
Cool! Well ahead of the curve! I was not expecting old-school analogue gear to do this. So this is kind of a "retrig" with the added benefit of choosing the starting point. You don't have to use a resonant filter for kick anymore, you can use a clamped sine. It will get rid of those pesky random clicks or random lack of transients. Do a nice fat 808 kind of longish tuned kick with a touch of analogue drive! :D Also, now you can always have a solid bass that is never out of phase, never drops out! No need for added sine bottom to keep it stable... On my wishlist from now on, if I'll ever get into the hardware world. :)
hi totally new in this, nice vid, but one question......i cannot figure out now how to place en use the cables...can i use the v in and control inputs together from 2 different synths ???
Yes, well it's a single sync with adjustable phase. You get different results with osc sync which is constantly syncing. My detuned oscillator example was not very good but this reset allows you to have a detuned sound which you can not achieve with proper osc hard sync
@@TimShoebridge You can do the same with normal oscillator sync, just use a gate/trigger instead of a 2nd oscillator. Only difference is that you can't adjust the phase.
Hi Tim I am thinking about trying a dreadbox synth! I have never had one of their boxes and you seem to have tested them all. Where do you think is a good place to start. The obvious question would be what do i want it for? But I purely want it to explore the instrument itself, I really enjoy learning boxs and the instrument itself, they don't need to be deep or complicated, just well designed and fun to use. Where should I start?
Hi Alexander, the Typhon is a huge amount of fun to play with, there's some menu diving involved but it's a great stand-alone synth, excellent built in effects, sequencer, works off USB power, but.... it's not semi-modular and that's the part about Dreadbox synths I personally really love. My favourite of all Dreadbox semi-modular synths was the original Erebus (v1 or v2)... incredibly simple to use but sounds amazing. You can pick them up used very reasonably these days. The latest Erebus, v3, is a little more complex, lots of patch points, three oscillators and some very cool audio rate modulation capabilities but I think the v1 or v2 are still the people's favourite for some reason.
The reason that the Clamping point control is on the 921 but not on the 921B is that the 921 doubles up as the LFO in a Moog Modular system which is also why most Moog modular systems only have one. It has a much wider frequency range than the 921B and an output amplifier to increase the output level to make it suitable for modulation. The different clamping points allow you to begin the modulation when you start a note and select the initial control voltage. The design of this VCO pre-dates the retrigger type of VCO sync but it (probably unintentionally) serves this purpose. The sync on the 921B does not retrigger the wave. The 921B VCO is known as a Phase Locked Loop with the oscillator being one component of it. The sync circuit adjusts the control voltage to keep the two waves in phase with each other and therefore at the same frequency and this sounds very different to the VCO sync that most people are used to because the wave is actually being bent to keep the phase the same.
Yes! And one of the reasons behind the implementation of Clamping in 921 and Sync in 921B resides in the possibility to made additive synthesis (with several sine waves in different frequencies) with accurate phase too!
Thanks Rob. I was wondering if the oscillator could be used as an LFO where it would give consistent modulation.
@@unclemick-synths The raw individual outputs of the 921 and 921B are too low to be used for modulation which is why the 921 has the auxiliary output with a waveform selector switch and level control. This is actually an amplifier that boosts the output level so the VCO can be used as an LFO. The switch is there so that only one amplifier is required.
@@robcrouch1680 thanks for clarifying Rob.
very interesting comment, cant wit to test out the difference in sync styles.
Quite interesting function. I really look forward to your review of the system 55. Your System 100 videos were very informative and fun to watch and listen to.
This video clears up a major frustration I had whilst using the VM900 modules from Cherry Audio to create a bassline. Much thanks 🙏🏾
Thanks Tim.i bought a couple of 921 oscillators quite a while ago, just so I could get that moog sound and all the stuff online about the clamping point was very unclear.your video has now wonderfully cleared up this mystery.
BRILLIANT!!! Thanks for clarifying this Tim!! Truly appreciate!!! Excellent!!! Blessings!!!
Right on time! I just ordered 921b.
Thank you for your system 100 and 55 explanations. 💫
Thx a lot for this video : not being a Moog expert, this "Clamping point" was a mystery.
But it is not anymore !! :)
Tim, another great breakdown here. I had no idea of what a "clamping point" was when I first saw this module, and going through the archives of old Moog literature was no help. You video, on the other hand, was as always both succinct and brilliant. I actually went back to this video after pausing your full System 55 breakdown so I could insert all of the notes I was thinking of inserting (writing not music) in my user manual to the System 55 based on your wonderful breakdown. You continue to make the complex understandable in a way that helps us all enjoy our equipment more often than we are frustrates with it, and that my friend, is a true gift. Thanks as always! Chris
Thanks Tim!!!! I was trying to ratchet my 960/962 setup with a Behringer 112 and was unable to get the effect I needed. I now realize how important that clamping point is in the sequencer ratcheting setup and WHY. Thanks for clarifying...now off to Sweetwater to order a 921!
Thanx a lot for those explanations! That was exactly what I was looking for.
Wow, you now have an oscilloscope. This is a major step.:-) It is a really useful tool, congratulations. BTW, very thorough and informative video. Thank you very much for your efforts
Thank you, Tim. Very clear explanation and illustrations!
Great as always… very helpful
As always, a great video and lot of info. Thank you!
Thanks for this video! I have a 921 and was curious about the utility of its function.
Love the researching, Tim!
Another great video,thanks!
Thanks for a great explanation!
OMG.. Tim.. I just was like what is this clamping point all about... first hit on a search and your lovely face comes up
Seems that the "clamping point" effectively changes the starting point of the _phase_ of a given waveform. Wish it could be controlled via CV input ... .
Yep, that would be cool
Yeah. I'm wondering how hard it would be to connect a jack to the pot
@@bob-rogers did yo fugire it out?
Cool! It is the same like the phase parameter in the Spectralis oscillator section. It's also an essential feature for FM sounds.
Interesting! I've got 6 of those 921s.
Completely clarifying!
Thanks' for posting,Tim!Always' wondered about 'clamping',on the 921?I was just listening to the 'Switched-On- Bach' albums' and wondered how much 'clamping' played a role in the different sounds' used on those albums'?
There is a special CD available by Wendy Carlos how the whole Album has been produced. Highly recommended!
Hm, actually seems similar to the "note sync" (as opposed to hard sync) on the Minitaur. I wonder if it's accomplished in the same way
That emoji face whenever s-trig unintentionally triggered was hilarious. :P
For whatever it's worth, I ditched the interface module and created some cables with a transistor/resistor circuit. One nice side effect of that is that as long as I disconnect the cable at the source end first, I've found the accidental grounds are much less likely to occur. It's been a happy accident.
Please correct me if wrong. On this VCO, “trigger” is the same as hard sync. With Clamping Point (CP) at zero, it is like most VCOs that have hard sync. Using sync to give low notes consistent attack is a standard old trick.
Setting CP to non-zero values is where it makes a difference. However, our ears are somewhat insensitive to phase, so different CP levels will not always be obvious; it depends on the mix of oscillators and their frequency and sync relationships.
Varied CP settings would be obvious when used at low frequencies for modulation.
@12:10 Tim's remembered how to play "Tune in Tokyo" ;)
Good video as ever Tim. Yep twiddling those knobs did look a bit dodgy 😀
Great would have been good to include some examples of the 921 in LFO mode and modulating other sources with clamped waves.
The Solaris has the ability to set what it calls 'phase' to select the restart point for lfo wave forms - which is key to the voxhumana shimmer of multiple lfos.
Thank you for your thorough analysis. Does the 921 have better tuning overall than the 112 Dual VCO?
Thanks for these videos Tim. Should I grab a 921 for an extra voice? For a VCO for my eurorack with a Moog sound? Or maybe I hsould get a 921A and 921B?
Fascinating. B has ported some interesting features over to its series.
What oscilloscope are you using, Tim? It looks really great. I think they are really useful.
The oszilloscope thing was a good idea. We should watch more music via oszilloscope! 👍🥳
I would say, that "TRIG" or triggering is simply a missleading term.
It's exactly what we call "SYNC" today and the clamping point determines the starting phase of the wave after getting synced.
12:22 ... i had another picture in mind 🤣
nice as always....thanks
Thx that's a great video; helping to understand it. Can you also make a video about 921a/b.
Hi Tim, Many Tx. How do you attach your oscilloscope probes to euro rack? Is that a Behringer mixing module and which connectors are safe?
so if you put the output of another oscilator tuned one octave lower into the v-trig input you could get hard sync sounds by varying the frequency of this oscilator with an envelope or lfo, and using the clamping point control could vary the timbre. Interesting!
Cool! Well ahead of the curve! I was not expecting old-school analogue gear to do this. So this is kind of a "retrig" with the added benefit of choosing the starting point. You don't have to use a resonant filter for kick anymore, you can use a clamped sine. It will get rid of those pesky random clicks or random lack of transients. Do a nice fat 808 kind of longish tuned kick with a touch of analogue drive! :D Also, now you can always have a solid bass that is never out of phase, never drops out! No need for added sine bottom to keep it stable... On my wishlist from now on, if I'll ever get into the hardware world. :)
This is [a copy of] the oldest of old school! Moog had it, early on, but virtually nobody copied it-not even Moog, for the most part.
@@johnmahoney5393 They should have. We all need an oscillator like that in the toolbox! 🙂
hi totally new in this, nice vid, but one question......i cannot figure out now how to place en use the cables...can i use the v in and control inputs together from 2 different synths ???
So it's a sync with adjustable phase?
Yes, well it's a single sync with adjustable phase. You get different results with osc sync which is constantly syncing. My detuned oscillator example was not very good but this reset allows you to have a detuned sound which you can not achieve with proper osc hard sync
@@TimShoebridge You can do the same with normal oscillator sync, just use a gate/trigger instead of a 2nd oscillator. Only difference is that you can't adjust the phase.
Hi Tim I am thinking about trying a dreadbox synth!
I have never had one of their boxes and you seem to have tested them all. Where do you think is a good place to start. The obvious question would be what do i want it for? But I purely want it to explore the instrument itself, I really enjoy learning boxs and the instrument itself, they don't need to be deep or complicated, just well designed and fun to use. Where should I start?
Hi Alexander, the Typhon is a huge amount of fun to play with, there's some menu diving involved but it's a great stand-alone synth, excellent built in effects, sequencer, works off USB power, but.... it's not semi-modular and that's the part about Dreadbox synths I personally really love. My favourite of all Dreadbox semi-modular synths was the original Erebus (v1 or v2)... incredibly simple to use but sounds amazing. You can pick them up used very reasonably these days. The latest Erebus, v3, is a little more complex, lots of patch points, three oscillators and some very cool audio rate modulation capabilities but I think the v1 or v2 are still the people's favourite for some reason.
I wish I had not seen this video. Now I need a second 921 VCO (and I've go not place to put it!!!)
Reminds me of Quadrature modulation in telecoms.
Isn't it just a sync input ?
I've always wondered what my clamping point was
I think you can do oscillator sync with this.
Yes you can.
It doesn't look weird, but I thought this was going to be family friendly.
audio rate modulation of this would have benn intersting to hear
We call that “tune in Tokyo”
Big shame it's not voltage controlled as that would be a nice effect on a slow LFO!
Make it a 2 hour video then.. ^-^
12:17 lol ! is not only you