Adam, Videos like this go a long way in explaining the Great Fuel Injection Panic of the mid-1980s. No wonder old-timers felt the sky was falling when fuel injection was rolled out on a large scale. 😉
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What panic? 1968 Volkswagen 411 had Bosch electronic port fuel injection. I had a Cadillac 79 Eldorado with Bosch efi. Worked great. I worked on all of them. No big deal
The main issue with this system were the paper film capacitors used in the electronic control box. Over time they go leaky, especially if they're exposed to damp & then they screw up the calibration & the operation of the unit. In the 60s capacitors were made from plastic film & were way more reliable. Changing out the old caps is a well known task for tube radio & amp repair.
One other likely culprit was the germanium transistors that were common at that time. They were known for getting leaky and hissy after a few years and in 1958, there were still some transistor radios on the market with their transistors socketed the same way that tubes were generally installed.
There is an Adventurer convertible out there that is absolutely stunning, and it has a working FI system. The restorer, an electrical engineer, by a few happy miracles, was able to find the original FI take-off parts, including that crazy double-headed distributor, and reverse engineer the system to get it to work. One of the major problems is that the system was not well sealed and used the paper-wrapped capacitors of the time, so converting to polymer capacitors helped avoid humidity contamination. IIRC, the 'box' was mounted on the radiator support so was prone to weather intrusion. Anyway is it a jaw dropper and probably my fav car ever...i have pictures of it. One of the best things about are the googie-styled FI emblems
When those cars were recalled in 1959, the factory told the dealership to remove the fuel injection parts and toss them into a dumpster. Fortunately for all of us, the mechanic Who removed those parts off of an original car had the foresight to tuck them away into his attic and tell his son to preserve them. Rumor has it that when the restorer tried to acquire the parts from the mechanics son, he wanted big big big big big money for them and it took several years for them to come together on a price that was beneficial for everyone
I have seen other UA-cam videos about the Bendix Electrojector fuel injector system that used on a few Chrysler products in 1958. This video is the best description I have seen about the Bendix Electrojector system. It is not surprising that this fuel injection system was a failure. In 1958 this fuel injection system was very new and to a large extent experimental. It would take more time for electronic fuel injection to develop. Now every car is microprocessor controlled electronic fuel injection.
Great content Adam. You must have hours of research to make these videos, and I wanted to tell you how much I/WE appreciate your hard work and valuable time it takes to make these informative videos. Bravo!!~
I thoroughly enjoy your detailed explanations and narration! As a long time Chrysler fan since childhood from the time my father bought his new 1962 Windsor 2 door hardtop 383. I was 6 back then. In 1972 my father bought a new Imperial 4 door hardtop (with some rare factory options like cassette and rear heating) that I was allowed to drive at 16. I currently own a white 1960 300F coupe. Also in my garage is a 1968 300 convertible with 20,000 original miles. Your research is definitely the most accurate that I’ve come across on YT. Thank you! Kevin
The Bosh electronic injection system Mercedes and VW used in the late 60s / early 70s is basically identical to this system, just with more modern components. Bosh licensed the design from Bendix! So it shows the basic design was sound.
Bosch switched from positive switched power outputs to ground side switching. Worked much better than the original Bendix system. I admire the forward thinking of the Bendix engineers of the time and the steel nuts that Chrysler had to try this on production cars.
Adam, you might enjoy the Jay Leno’s Garage video about his paint and body man’s 300D, posted about five years ago. Per upgraded the original Bendix injection with some modern electronics and got it running pretty well.
I worked in automotive dealerships that sold European cars from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s. One of the biggest issues with early Bosch electronic electronic fuel injection systems appeared as the cars began to age. The Bosch systems used numerous cloth-covered rubber hoses for fuel lines. As the fuel lines aged, they would begin to leak. When this happened, the cars would usually catch fire and occasionally burn to the ground. This was especially true of the Volkswagen Type 3 and Type 4 cars. The air-cooled engines in those cars added to the heat the hoses were subjected to, and that increased the rate of fuel line deterioration. This issue became so common that we had one mechanic who spent most of his time repairing the less severe "burn jobs."
This is sorta of true. Had a 1970 type 3. But VW came out with a stronger neoprene hose in 1973. It was quite easy to replace the old cloth covered hoses. I think the new hose originally appeared on Porsches that had the same injection.
I remember my father taking his Squareback in because it was getting 10 MPG and having the leaky hoses replaced. It's no wonder so many of them burned with the engine in the rear; it was probably easier for the driver in the next car back to smell the gasoline than the driver of the VW.
Thanks guys , both of you, for posting. I was wondering if it was this or a different system that had RFI issues, just like you described. I saw a story on this years ago....Leno? I don't recall.
Mom had a 76 Seville. The Fuel injection worked great, until it didn't. Before the first failure it started and ran great at slow idle at any temperature. Then one day it only ran on 4 cylinders. A new "Computer" got it running on all 8 again (for about $1,000 in 1980), but brought with it an extremely high cold idle speed that lasted 10 minutes or more - the brakes would be smoking from trying to hold the speed down to 25 or 30 mph driving in town. Once it finally calmed down it would then stumble on every throttle angle change, sometimes backfiring into the intake - this was overcome by matting the pedal which apparently caused full throttle enrichment, which many times squealed the rear tires - not bad if you are a 16-year-old boy, but mom was not a fan. I think you are wrong about the Bendix system having feedback air-fuel control. I think that was what it really needed, but did not have. My 1980 Volvo 264 GLE may not have been the first, but it's the oldest car I ever worked on that had a Lamda (O2) sensor.
10:53 I've read that the system in the '76 Seville's 350, which was also available for the 500 and 425, was really just a rehash of the Bosch D-Jetronic and Bendix Electrojector technology and that the term "computer", especially by VW, which made the metal box clearly visible in the vents on the left tailfin of its Type-3 models, was a stretched reference to analog computing, which often involved the use of op-amps and feedback loops in a "summing" configuration. Cadillac heavily touted the 1980 368 engine as having the world's first digitally controlled fuel injection, and it was a step forward in that respect, but it also used a single throttle-body injector in place of the 8 port injectors in the Bendix and Bosch systems, which some saw as a step backward.
Bosch made D Jetronic from bendix system. Germans tinkered it and added coolant temperature compensation and all problems were gone. Later it was refined to L-Jetronic, genuine digital ECU injection. Reliable as hell. Oldest are near 50y old and still work like as new. GM Europe used these at Opels. I have had many, most simple injection and can be installed to every pre 1990 engine.
Could you start doing videos on Air Cooled and early VWs, 124 Fiats, MGA/B, W123 Mercedes, Peugeots, Internationals, Willys Jeepsters, etc? There is so much more ground you can cover and still maintain your quality. I think it would broaden the appeal of your channel. You should have 10x the subscribers
Another great video. This graphically shows why electronics are not the panacea that the industry wants you to think it is. People over forty remember the problems that cars had in their younger years had because the technology was not mature. Daily reliability is one reason carburettors endured for so long.
@@Jasona1976He probably just drives American cars. Digital EFI is likely one of the major reasons why Japanese cars were able to gain so much market share in the '80s, they just did it right.
@@Jasona1976 I said that it's likely, I didn't say that it was fact. In my experience, Japanese EFI systems were basically flawless, while American (and European systems systems) were always having some kind of problem. The sensors in American systems always seemed to have problems, but I don't think that I ever had to replace anything other than O2 sensors on Japanese vehicles, and those are basically a wear item. The only other EFI related issue that I ever had with any Japanese EFI system was related to the purely mechanical IACV on the first gen Honda EFI systems, but that was when the cars were quite old and had over 200k miles on them.
You must admit that in modern vehicles fuel injection is in my opinion the biggest advancement in about 50 years. I had several cars years ago with crappy carburetors and compared to today there is no comparison.
My first car in the mid 80´s was a -71 Mercedes 250CE with the Bosch D-Jetronic, and it worked just fine! I had to replace a few injectors though, because of leaking issues, but that was an easy fix and not too expensive back then. The computer for it was the size of a small briefcase😅
Digital electronic fuel injection was the best thing to happen to cars. GM should have put throttle body injection on everything the same year the Iron Duke got it in 1982. It's incredible that some European manufacturers stuck with some descendants of Bosch Jetronic electromechanical abomination fuel injection into the early 1990s.
The Japanese used Nipppn-Denso EFI systems that were license-built versions of the Bosch systems, and they were incredibly reliable. They had clearly made some improvements to the Bosch systems.
I must have been very lucky. While I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the Bosch CIS fuel injection system, it was one of the few things that *didn't* give me heartburn on my '82 Audi Coupe.
GM Europe used Bosch Jetronic full digital versions from 1970s. L-Jetronic, LE-Jetronic, LH, LE2 and Motronic. Those work like magic, and still do, even they are almost 50y old. But VW, Mercedes, Volvo used mechanical K-Jetronics for some reason. Overly complicated, but reliable too
The 1980's EFI gave a lot of trouble that even the dealers/manufacturers couldn't fix... hence the Lemon Laws... they had to eat what they couldn't fix...
Had it not been for Bendix we would not have gotten Bosch EFI. Incidentally the Bosch D-Jet system was all analog as well as the L-jet system that followed initially. It’s interesting that Bosch K-jet was a mechanical fuel injection based on airflow. I’m sure they were co developed with the automotive manufacturers based on specific criteria. For instance Mercedes was reluctant to use electronic fuel injection probably based on issues it had with D-jet in the early cars. They switched to K-jet and then later to KE-jet with electronic support. The beauty of KE was that it was still mechanical at heart and if the electronics failed the engine would still run. When they switched to electronic fuel injection in the late 80’s their control units were well shielded and removed from as much environmental issues as possible.
Digital electronic fuel injection leap-frogged them all in terms of reliability. It's incredible that some European manufacturers stayed with some from of the Bosch electromechanical fuel injection into the early 1990s.
The early D-Jet was controlled by an analog ECU that was susceptible to heat, vibration, moisture etc. The technology for making these controllers robust was not yet developed. The story goes that M-B went away from that to the K-jet system in the early 70's after some more influential owners of their V8 flagship cars from in middle east complained that this could leave them stranded in the middle of the desert. Therefore the reversal in technology - up until the early 90's (KE-Jet) for their flagship models.
At that time it would’ve been much better going with mechanical fuel injection, like a diesel but not direct & not pre-chamber, like the later Lucas Mechanical Injection, which contrary to it’s Lucas branding, was in fact very reliable.
If Chrysler couldn't get it right with their fuel injection system, they one upped themselves with 2 other failures. The lean burn system and their thermo quad carburetor. Then in the early 80's, there was another fuel injection failures, where they had to recall them and convert them back to carburetor.
I agree on the "innovations" coming out when the electronics were subpar, a good example was the Cadillac V8-6-4 in 1981. These days the electronics are good, though cylinder deactivation takes a toll on engine life. I'll always default toward proven technology.
Pretty much all electronic multi-point fuel injection systems were under Bendix patents. Bosch introduced a perfected system on VW in 1968 and Mercedes-Benz in the early 70's. Although considered an electronic system, these used mechanical trigger points. The perfected systems were known as the Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection. A word on the Rochester fuel injection, these operated under Bosch patents and when Bosch introduced a refined system in the mid-70's, it would be known as the CIS fuel injection system. Cadillac re-introduced the Bendix fuel injection, vastly improved, on the Cadillac Seville. As far as the oxygen sensor, working at a Cadillac dealership when these cars were still in warranty, I don't remember the Bendix units using them. Possibly it might have been added for the 1980 model year like other GM applications. These Bendix fuel injection units didn't have any self-diagnostics. That would come for the 1981 model year in GM cars and that's when Cadillac introduced it's first Digital Fuel Injection system. The previous Bendix fuel injection systems were analog. In 1982 when GM introduced the electronic fuel injection system as the "Cross-Fire", it was analog, as were the ones to follow.
Well, the Bosch D Jetronic might have been a refined version of the Bendix electrojector. But ist wasn't sufficienty refined. At the time Bosch started the production üf the D Jetronic there were still a few strong AM radio stations left in Germany. The strongest by far (1122 kHz, 1.2 MW) was in Heusweiler, right next to the A8 Autobahn. Around 1970, a wire net had to be stretched across the autobahn as a Faraday cage to prevent D-Jetronic cars from stopping near the transmitter.
Hm, I'm guessing they didn't have the "5th injector" and thermo time switch, a separate system to give and extra squirt of fuel in the intake for cold starts. That's what the later Bosch systems used, and it worked well.
I wouldn't agree with everything presented here regarding variable fuel pressure being a desirable thing. That would only add to the complexity of a fuel injection system. Constant pressure and well-controlled timing, pulse-width and air-control is the reliable way to do it.
You mention some (more recent) FI systems that vary the fuel pressure as well as the pulse width. I’m curious about that. The one system I’m familiar with is on DSM cars, where the fuel pressure regulator is referenced to the manifold pressure. Therefore the injector flow rate will be constant, regardless of throttle position or turbo boost. I consider such a system a “constant fuel pressure” system, since it’s constant as seen by the injectors, and you entirely vary the fuel amount via the pulse width. Does anyone have examples of a system that goes beyond that, and intentionally varies the fuel pressure over a wider range? Is it for port injection, or direct injection? I expect that a modern computer could easily use a fuel pressure sensor and calculate the expected injector flow rate for any condition.
One correction: “The Forward Look” started with Chrysler’s 1955 models. The all new 1957’s were actually the second generation of “Forward Look” vehicles.
I think Chrysler could've made it work but releasing it for '58 was too early for it to succeed. If they debuted it in the mid-sixties then maybe. Having EFI on the Hemi or 440 would've spurred on development much faster and maybe even given Chrysler a leg up during the fuel crisis.
Reminds me of when someone's alternator would die on their GM product, we'd say "Delco Remy reamed me again..."😅 I wonder if anyone said "Bendix bent me over again," as a carburetor was retrofitted to their shiny Chrysler!😂
Yes, the mechanical SPICA system was quite good. It was originally intended to be used on diesel-powered tractors and Alfa-Romeo adapted it for use on their DOHC 4-cyl engines, allowing them to meet then impending US emission standards. SPICA was not used by Alfa Romeo in Italy or any other European market, which instead they continued with carburators. Outside of in the US and Canada, Alfa-Romeo did not use fuel injection on normal production cars until the adoption of Bosch's L-Jetronic system in the early 1980's
@@AB-pl1koOne thing difficult to explain to anyone born only within the last 30-40 yrs is the almost affixiating fumes of entering the garage portion of a affixed home in the morning with two vehicles, both with 4 barrel carbs.
Whats a vacuum tube?? Lol I remember a time when my dads 59 ford galaxy 500 radio had to warm up before it worked That picture is a Volkswagen type 3 engine It didn't give me any trouble other than fuel hose leaks
A vacuum tube is that thing all classic guitar amplifiers use to give you that superior tone! ;) Said the guy who switched to a digital modeling amp almost five years ago.
He said that the early versions of the Bendix system used vacuum tubes, but they changed to transistors as soon as they could (I’m a bit surprised to hear that transistors were up to that task in 1958). He didn’t mention whether any vacuum-tube injection systems got used in production cars.
There are four of them in total. A DeSoto Adventurer convertible that has been restored to Perfection that I believe is in utah. A Chrysler 300 in California that was built up from parts that was showcased on Jay Leno's Garage a couple years ago. An all original 300 that was never recalled and is part of a collection in Upstate New York and a 300 in Louisville Kentucky that was pieced together from All Original Parts collected over a lifetime
The idea was there just not the technology ! You can see they feverishly tried to make it work ! I say it was a fail from the get go especialy using parts from a transistor radio ! 😂
Generators/dynamos don't have any sort of field regulation, ie you will barely get any amperage if at all for charging at idle, which is a bad thing if you're trying to run sensitive electronics
I have a Fuel Injection Chrysler 300D 2 dr htp, bought in 2001. It's the car I always wanted.
Adam, Videos like this go a long way in explaining the Great Fuel Injection Panic of the mid-1980s. No wonder old-timers felt the sky was falling when fuel injection was rolled out
on a large scale. 😉
What panic? 1968 Volkswagen 411 had Bosch electronic port fuel injection. I had a Cadillac 79 Eldorado with Bosch efi. Worked great. I worked on all of them. No big deal
Yes, many of which were swapped over to carb by mechanics the moment something went even slightly wrong.
The main issue with this system were the paper film capacitors used in the electronic control box. Over time they go leaky, especially if they're exposed to damp & then they screw up the calibration & the operation of the unit. In the 60s capacitors were made from plastic film & were way more reliable. Changing out the old caps is a well known task for tube radio & amp repair.
I heard about someone who replaced the original paper ones with the plastic films.. and ran perfect..
One other likely culprit was the germanium transistors that were common at that time. They were known for getting leaky and hissy after a few years and in 1958, there were still some transistor radios on the market with their transistors socketed the same way that tubes were generally installed.
There is an Adventurer convertible out there that is absolutely stunning, and it has a working FI system. The restorer, an electrical engineer, by a few happy miracles, was able to find the original FI take-off parts, including that crazy double-headed distributor, and reverse engineer the system to get it to work. One of the major problems is that the system was not well sealed and used the paper-wrapped capacitors of the time, so converting to polymer capacitors helped avoid humidity contamination. IIRC, the 'box' was mounted on the radiator support so was prone to weather intrusion. Anyway is it a jaw dropper and probably my fav car ever...i have pictures of it. One of the best things about are the googie-styled FI emblems
That sounds very cool!
When those cars were recalled in 1959, the factory told the dealership to remove the fuel injection parts and toss them into a dumpster. Fortunately for all of us, the mechanic Who removed those parts off of an original car had the foresight to tuck them away into his attic and tell his son to preserve them. Rumor has it that when the restorer tried to acquire the parts from the mechanics son, he wanted big big big big big money for them and it took several years for them to come together on a price that was beneficial for everyone
knowledge. Post some of your pictures of it?
I have seen other UA-cam videos about the Bendix Electrojector fuel injector system that used on a few Chrysler products in 1958. This video is the best description I have seen about the Bendix Electrojector system. It is not surprising that this fuel injection system was a failure. In 1958 this fuel injection system was very new and to a large extent experimental. It would take more time for electronic fuel injection to develop. Now every car is microprocessor controlled electronic fuel injection.
Great content Adam. You must have hours of research to make these videos, and I wanted to tell you how much I/WE appreciate your hard work and valuable time it takes to make these informative videos. Bravo!!~
I thoroughly enjoy your detailed explanations and narration!
As a long time Chrysler fan since childhood from the time my father bought his new 1962 Windsor 2 door hardtop 383. I was 6 back then. In 1972 my father bought a new Imperial 4 door hardtop (with some rare factory options like cassette and rear heating) that I was allowed to drive at 16. I currently own a white 1960 300F coupe. Also in my garage is a 1968 300 convertible with 20,000 original miles. Your research is definitely the most accurate that I’ve come across on YT. Thank you!
Kevin
Thanks!
The Bosh electronic injection system Mercedes and VW used in the late 60s / early 70s is basically identical to this system, just with more modern components. Bosh licensed the design from Bendix! So it shows the basic design was sound.
Bosch
There used to be a TV program, Crime Story, where one of the officers drove a black 1957 Chrysler 300C convertible. That was/is a beautiful car.
Bosch switched from positive switched power outputs to ground side switching. Worked much better than the original Bendix system. I admire the forward thinking of the Bendix engineers of the time and the steel nuts that Chrysler had to try this on production cars.
Adam, you might enjoy the Jay Leno’s Garage video about his paint and body man’s 300D, posted about five years ago. Per upgraded the original Bendix injection with some modern electronics and got it running pretty well.
I could believe that WJR radio that broadcast their signal at 50,000 watts could in fact interfere with those injectors.
I worked in automotive dealerships that sold European cars from the mid 1970s to the early 1990s. One of the biggest issues with early Bosch electronic electronic fuel injection systems appeared as the cars began to age. The Bosch systems used numerous cloth-covered rubber hoses for fuel lines. As the fuel lines aged, they would begin to leak. When this happened, the cars would usually catch fire and occasionally burn to the ground. This was especially true of the Volkswagen Type 3 and Type 4 cars. The air-cooled engines in those cars added to the heat the hoses were subjected to, and that increased the rate of fuel line deterioration. This issue became so common that we had one mechanic who spent most of his time repairing the less severe "burn jobs."
This is sorta of true. Had a 1970 type 3. But VW came out with a stronger neoprene hose in 1973. It was quite easy to replace the old cloth covered hoses. I think the new hose originally appeared on Porsches that had the same injection.
I remember my father taking his Squareback in because it was getting 10 MPG and having the leaky hoses replaced. It's no wonder so many of them burned with the engine in the rear; it was probably easier for the driver in the next car back to smell the gasoline than the driver of the VW.
@5:09 1954 to early 1955 Buick engine with Bendix fuel injection (valve covers and spark covers are the tell for the year range)
Very interesting. My parents had a 71 VW which has fuel injection and it ran great. Started on cold and hot days just fine. Great gas mileage too.
The RFI issue is totally believable, we experienced the same stuff when we introduced our DFI outboards in 1997!
The old Chrysler F.I. system reportedly had issues when owners drove down roads that had power lines running beside them, because of the EMI/RFI.
Thanks guys , both of you, for posting. I was wondering if it was this or a different system that had RFI issues, just like you described. I saw a story on this years ago....Leno? I don't recall.
Mom had a 76 Seville. The Fuel injection worked great, until it didn't. Before the first failure it started and ran great at slow idle at any temperature. Then one day it only ran on 4 cylinders. A new "Computer" got it running on all 8 again (for about $1,000 in 1980), but brought with it an extremely high cold idle speed that lasted 10 minutes or more - the brakes would be smoking from trying to hold the speed down to 25 or 30 mph driving in town. Once it finally calmed down it would then stumble on every throttle angle change, sometimes backfiring into the intake - this was overcome by matting the pedal which apparently caused full throttle enrichment, which many times squealed the rear tires - not bad if you are a 16-year-old boy, but mom was not a fan. I think you are wrong about the Bendix system having feedback air-fuel control. I think that was what it really needed, but did not have. My 1980 Volvo 264 GLE may not have been the first, but it's the oldest car I ever worked on that had a Lamda (O2) sensor.
It got it in 1979
I had no idea that fuel injection appeared so early.
I still like and prefer carburetors.
10:53 I've read that the system in the '76 Seville's 350, which was also available for the 500 and 425, was really just a rehash of the Bosch D-Jetronic and Bendix Electrojector technology and that the term "computer", especially by VW, which made the metal box clearly visible in the vents on the left tailfin of its Type-3 models, was a stretched reference to analog computing, which often involved the use of op-amps and feedback loops in a "summing" configuration. Cadillac heavily touted the 1980 368 engine as having the world's first digitally controlled fuel injection, and it was a step forward in that respect, but it also used a single throttle-body injector in place of the 8 port injectors in the Bendix and Bosch systems, which some saw as a step backward.
Bosch made D Jetronic from bendix system. Germans tinkered it and added coolant temperature compensation and all problems were gone.
Later it was refined to L-Jetronic, genuine digital ECU injection. Reliable as hell. Oldest are near 50y old and still work like as new. GM Europe used these at Opels. I have had many, most simple injection and can be installed to every pre 1990 engine.
Could you start doing videos on Air Cooled and early VWs, 124 Fiats, MGA/B, W123 Mercedes, Peugeots, Internationals, Willys Jeepsters, etc? There is so much more ground you can cover and still maintain your quality. I think it would broaden the appeal of your channel. You should have 10x the subscribers
Greetings: Problems then, same problems now. Think KISS and it will B good. Thx 4 the share.
Another great video. This graphically shows why electronics are not the panacea that the industry wants you to think it is. People over forty remember the problems that cars had in their younger years had because the technology was not mature. Daily reliability is one reason carburettors endured for so long.
You must still ride a horse.
@@Jasona1976He probably just drives American cars. Digital EFI is likely one of the major reasons why Japanese cars were able to gain so much market share in the '80s, they just did it right.
@@PistonAvatarGuy of course you can prove that??
@@Jasona1976 I said that it's likely, I didn't say that it was fact. In my experience, Japanese EFI systems were basically flawless, while American (and European systems systems) were always having some kind of problem. The sensors in American systems always seemed to have problems, but I don't think that I ever had to replace anything other than O2 sensors on Japanese vehicles, and those are basically a wear item.
The only other EFI related issue that I ever had with any Japanese EFI system was related to the purely mechanical IACV on the first gen Honda EFI systems, but that was when the cars were quite old and had over 200k miles on them.
@ so your experience with two Japanese cars makes you an expert? LMAO DUDE
You must admit that in modern vehicles fuel injection is in my opinion the biggest advancement in about 50 years. I had several cars years ago with crappy carburetors and compared to today there is no comparison.
My first car in the mid 80´s was a -71 Mercedes 250CE with the Bosch D-Jetronic, and it worked just fine! I had to replace a few injectors though, because of leaking issues, but that was an easy fix and not too expensive back then. The computer for it was the size of a small briefcase😅
Had a1975 Opel 1900 that had I'm assuming Bosch FI. Funny though it had ignition points. The fuel injection never messed up once.
Digital electronic fuel injection was the best thing to happen to cars. GM should have put throttle body injection on everything the same year the Iron Duke got it in 1982. It's incredible that some European manufacturers stuck with some descendants of Bosch Jetronic electromechanical abomination fuel injection into the early 1990s.
The Japanese used Nipppn-Denso EFI systems that were license-built versions of the Bosch systems, and they were incredibly reliable. They had clearly made some improvements to the Bosch systems.
We had some cars with those Bosch fuel injections. They were okish but when they were off....
I must have been very lucky. While I've heard all sorts of horror stories about the Bosch CIS fuel injection system, it was one of the few things that *didn't* give me heartburn on my '82 Audi Coupe.
GM Europe used Bosch Jetronic full digital versions from 1970s. L-Jetronic, LE-Jetronic, LH, LE2 and Motronic. Those work like magic, and still do, even they are almost 50y old.
But VW, Mercedes, Volvo used mechanical K-Jetronics for some reason. Overly complicated, but reliable too
The 1980's EFI gave a lot of trouble that even the dealers/manufacturers couldn't fix... hence the Lemon Laws... they had to eat what they couldn't fix...
Adam,Jay Lenos employee restored a fuel injected 300 and there is a video on it on Jays garage.Mike the Greek
Had it not been for Bendix we would not have gotten Bosch EFI. Incidentally the Bosch D-Jet system was all analog as well as the L-jet system that followed initially. It’s interesting that Bosch K-jet was a mechanical fuel injection based on airflow. I’m sure they were co developed with the automotive manufacturers based on specific criteria. For instance Mercedes was reluctant to use electronic fuel injection probably based on issues it had with D-jet in the early cars. They switched to K-jet and then later to KE-jet with electronic support. The beauty of KE was that it was still mechanical at heart and if the electronics failed the engine would still run. When they switched to electronic fuel injection in the late 80’s their control units were well shielded and removed from as much environmental issues as possible.
Digital electronic fuel injection leap-frogged them all in terms of reliability. It's incredible that some European manufacturers stayed with some from of the Bosch electromechanical fuel injection into the early 1990s.
The early D-Jet was controlled by an analog ECU that was susceptible to heat, vibration, moisture etc. The technology for making these controllers robust was not yet developed. The story goes that M-B went away from that to the K-jet system in the early 70's after some more influential owners of their V8 flagship cars from in middle east complained that this could leave them stranded in the middle of the desert. Therefore the reversal in technology - up until the early 90's (KE-Jet) for their flagship models.
I'll bet someone could make that Bendix system work quite well, with some hidden modern electronics.
At that time it would’ve been much better going with mechanical fuel injection, like a diesel but not direct & not pre-chamber, like the later Lucas Mechanical Injection, which contrary to it’s Lucas branding, was in fact very reliable.
I had a VW beetle with injection on it ran great
If Chrysler couldn't get it right with their fuel injection system, they one upped themselves with 2 other failures. The lean burn system and their thermo quad carburetor.
Then in the early 80's, there was another fuel injection failures, where they had to recall them and convert them back to carburetor.
I added water injection to my Magnum 360 Lean Burn engine to combat the spark knock and changed the themoquad to a Holley carb on my 72 Demon 340.
Would be interesting to equip such a car/engine with a modern ECU and some extra sensors
I agree on the "innovations" coming out when the electronics were subpar, a good example was the Cadillac V8-6-4 in 1981. These days the electronics are good, though cylinder deactivation takes a toll on engine life. I'll always default toward proven technology.
Hindsight's 20/20, but it seems like it would have been easy to add one extra fuel injector for cold-weather starting.
That is a really nice looking Chrysler 300D. A far cry from the 300D of the 2000s 😂
Pretty much all electronic multi-point fuel injection systems were under Bendix patents. Bosch introduced a perfected system on VW in 1968 and Mercedes-Benz in the early 70's. Although considered an electronic system, these used mechanical trigger points. The perfected systems were known as the Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection.
A word on the Rochester fuel injection, these operated under Bosch patents and when Bosch introduced a refined system in the mid-70's, it would be known as the CIS fuel injection system.
Cadillac re-introduced the Bendix fuel injection, vastly improved, on the Cadillac Seville. As far as the oxygen sensor, working at a Cadillac dealership when these cars were still in warranty, I don't remember the Bendix units using them. Possibly it might have been added for the 1980 model year like other GM applications. These Bendix fuel injection units didn't have any self-diagnostics. That would come for the 1981 model year in GM cars and that's when Cadillac introduced it's first Digital Fuel Injection system. The previous Bendix fuel injection systems were analog.
In 1982 when GM introduced the electronic fuel injection system as the "Cross-Fire", it was analog, as were the ones to follow.
Vacuum tubes require high voltage. What was the system to achieve high voltage from a 12 volt automotive system?
Yeah Jay Leno has one on his Chrysler but I think it's been modernized so it works
I dig your content brother..nice job. 😊
Well, the Bosch D Jetronic might have been a refined version of the Bendix electrojector. But ist wasn't sufficienty refined. At the time Bosch started the production üf the D Jetronic there were still a few strong AM radio stations left in Germany. The strongest by far (1122 kHz, 1.2 MW) was in Heusweiler, right next to the A8 Autobahn. Around 1970, a wire net had to be stretched across the autobahn as a Faraday cage to prevent D-Jetronic cars from stopping near the transmitter.
Hm, I'm guessing they didn't have the "5th injector" and thermo time switch, a separate system to give and extra squirt of fuel in the intake for cold starts. That's what the later Bosch systems used, and it worked well.
Nope
I wouldn't agree with everything presented here regarding variable fuel pressure being a desirable thing. That would only add to the complexity of a fuel injection system. Constant pressure and well-controlled timing, pulse-width and air-control is the reliable way to do it.
You mention some (more recent) FI systems that vary the fuel pressure as well as the pulse width. I’m curious about that. The one system I’m familiar with is on DSM cars, where the fuel pressure regulator is referenced to the manifold pressure. Therefore the injector flow rate will be constant, regardless of throttle position or turbo boost. I consider such a system a “constant fuel pressure” system, since it’s constant as seen by the injectors, and you entirely vary the fuel amount via the pulse width. Does anyone have examples of a system that goes beyond that, and intentionally varies the fuel pressure over a wider range? Is it for port injection, or direct injection? I expect that a modern computer could easily use a fuel pressure sensor and calculate the expected injector flow rate for any condition.
What's the deal with Chrysler and fuel injection? Two decades later, they screwed up the Imperial.
Interesting.
One correction: “The Forward Look” started with Chrysler’s 1955 models. The all new 1957’s were actually the second generation of “Forward Look” vehicles.
I do not believe modern fuel injection systems vary fuel pressure at the injector manifold.
Never knew they had injection back then
I didn't either, I wonder if Chrysler used the same system Pontiac used on the Bonneville?
Nope. Different
@@bobhill3941 That was a mechanical injection system.
@RareClassicCars Thanks, keep up the great work.
@warmstrong5612 Thanks
I think Chrysler could've made it work but releasing it for '58 was too early for it to succeed. If they debuted it in the mid-sixties then maybe. Having EFI on the Hemi or 440 would've spurred on development much faster and maybe even given Chrysler a leg up during the fuel crisis.
Maybe '58 system would have worked longer with control box protected inside under the dash...
Reminds me of when someone's alternator would die on their GM product, we'd say "Delco Remy reamed me again..."😅
I wonder if anyone said "Bendix bent me over again," as a carburetor was retrofitted to their shiny Chrysler!😂
My earliest introduction was on a
1969 Alpha spider, mechanical, worked well by that time.
Yes, the mechanical SPICA system was quite good. It was originally intended to be used on diesel-powered tractors and Alfa-Romeo adapted it for use on their DOHC 4-cyl engines, allowing them to meet then impending US emission standards. SPICA was not used by Alfa Romeo in Italy or any other European market, which instead they continued with carburators. Outside of in the US and Canada, Alfa-Romeo did not use fuel injection on normal production cars until the adoption of Bosch's L-Jetronic system in the early 1980's
@@AB-pl1koOne thing difficult to explain to
anyone born only within the last 30-40 yrs
is the almost affixiating fumes of entering the garage portion of a affixed home in the morning with
two vehicles, both with 4 barrel carbs.
Why did the push button transition go away?
Whats a vacuum tube?? Lol
I remember a time when my dads 59 ford galaxy 500 radio had to warm up before it worked
That picture is a Volkswagen type 3 engine
It didn't give me any trouble other than fuel hose leaks
A vacuum tube is that thing all classic guitar amplifiers use to give you that superior tone! ;)
Said the guy who switched to a digital modeling amp almost five years ago.
Antique transistor etc. Google
Germany had FI on some aircraft engines in WW II.
were there vacuum tubes in the 'computer'?
was it digital or analog?
He said that the early versions of the Bendix system used vacuum tubes, but they changed to transistors as soon as they could (I’m a bit surprised to hear that transistors were up to that task in 1958). He didn’t mention whether any vacuum-tube injection systems got used in production cars.
Nobody wants to wait to start their cars ... then they did it anyway with diesel and glow plugs hehehe
Innovation doesn't happen unless people try new things. It might not have worked with the technology of the time. But they tried
Greetings: They can keep all of they crap. I will keep my Quadrajet and 2GC.
I love QJets.
A bridge too far
I like brakedive
You like reduced brake dive 😂
So with only 35 or so made I wonder how many still run on the electrojection? I bet.. 12.
There are four of them in total. A DeSoto Adventurer convertible that has been restored to Perfection that I believe is in utah. A Chrysler 300 in California that was built up from parts that was showcased on Jay Leno's Garage a couple years ago. An all original 300 that was never recalled and is part of a collection in Upstate New York and a 300 in Louisville Kentucky that was pieced together from All Original Parts collected over a lifetime
The idea was there just not the technology ! You can see they feverishly tried to make it work ! I say it was a fail from the get go especialy using parts from a transistor radio ! 😂
Too far ahead of the parts technology.
They don't even have an alternator on their car and they're trying electronic fuel injection😮
So what
@@Jasona1976 Do you not understand how that's a bad thing 😭
That would arrive 3 years later, an industry first
@@WendysAnime I don't. could you explain?
Generators/dynamos don't have any sort of field regulation, ie you will barely get any amperage if at all for charging at idle, which is a bad thing if you're trying to run sensitive electronics
Innovation doesn't happen unless people try new things. It might not have worked with the technology of the time. But they tried
Agreed! Nothing ventured, nothing gained