A really good film that bought back meany happy memory's for me. I left the projection room in 1986 but, I have never been without a 35mm projector at home to keep me sane. Today I have 2 Philips DP70's, Mole-Richardson 490 arc lamps, mercury arc rectifier, a Dolby CP200 processor, D-150 screen and lense and boxes of carbons, total ecstasy.
Wonderful setup! DP70s are the best of the best, I maintain a booth with 2 of them. We've got a CP650, Kinoton SRD readers, DTS XD10 + penthouse readers (custom brackets, no magazines), and a Dolby MPU-1 for 70mm mag. Strong Intl. rectifiers paired with Big Sky L3000s (my least favorite piece of equipment in there, but they work).
I trained in 1957/58 on Kalee 21s at the Gaumont Clapham. I went on to work at the ABC Streatham (and quite a few other theatres) for a number of years as a 3rd and later as co 2nd. I went to Canada for a year and returned to a job at Elstree Studios. I left the industry in 1974 and miss it sometimes. Cleaning mechs was a job for carbon tetrachloride in the old times. Nearly passed out with that stuff. Always played the National Anthem at the end of the night-to an empty theatre most times. We never called them record players. To us they were always non-syncs. The money was rubbish but the smell of an early morning auditorium, the purr of a well oiled machine, and a lot more pluses than you can shake a stick at, made it all worthwhile. I worked for myself when I left the industry and never had time to look back. I'm 78 coming up 79 now and reminisce over all the fun I had. The art of presentation ended with multiplex cinemas. No tabs, no stage lights, no carbon arcs to keep trimmed. It's sad but life moves on.
When I entered the industry the chief interviewed me & told me if this job gets into your blood you will never get it out of it, how right he was, 20 yrs passed with amazing speed, I consider to this day it was the most special & exciting work in the world. On my days off I would go to another cinema & ask my friend in the projection box if he would like some time off in the evening, so in theory I never took a day off.
This was so nice. I never got to be a projectionist but now I can almost call myself one. I love the stories these old masters tell. Experience is so valuable.
Really makes me think about the old cinemas I went to when I was young. These projectionist were like artist in the work they had to do as well as the attention to detail involved and timing. I never realize the pride and reward in a job well done they felt when things came together well. I for one want to say Thank You.
I remember buying those packets of bubble gum with the 35mm film clippings in them around 1955 / 56 when I was 8 or 9. But they weren’t strips of film but around a dozen single frames from different cinema films of the time or slightly earlier. When you had enough empty packets, you took them back to the shop and exchanged them for a little plastic film viewer that you put a frame in and looked through the viewer while holding it up to the light. I still have most of them all these many decades later. Some of them were CinemaScope frames with four magnetic strips on them for stereophonic sound and of course the images on them were anamorphically squeezed. Among the Scope titles were THE ROBE; BENEATH THE 12 MILE REEF; KING OF THE KHYBER RIFLES; CAPTAIN LIGHTFOOT; THE PURPLE MASK and TO HELL AND BACK.
Beautifully done, informative, evocative -- and melancholy. A portrait of "progress" that raises many questions. Thanks for this fine piece of documentary reporting.
Such a touching film. I really felt sorry for those professionals whose jobs were slowly snuffed out. They knew how to put on a show that would entertain and give the audience their money's worth. Now it's just push a button and the whole show is run by computer. Thank you for posting this wonderful film.
Many cases with digital only cinema it is not even push a button. It can be all automated and run from a remote control centre. No technical (projection) staff on site at all.
Wonderful documentary. Three, let's say two and a half generations here as projectionists. My grand-dad began in early 20th century, cranking. Then my dad nearly 50 years in the booth. I did a trick as a young teen-ager, filling in. Great memories at now age 84.
To all the Projectionists. You are way I became a Theater Technician. Back in the 70's I wanted to be a projectionist. At that time here in the US you had to be in the Stagehand Union and I had no one to sponsor me. I was fortunate to get a tour of a two rejection booths. One was at a local drive-in theater, and the other one was at a movie house. I remember my Friends had to pry me out of there. I worked for 35 years in the theater and retired in 2021 and I have always had an appreciation for projectionist. I was sad when I found out the Union removed the Projectionist. Great video. Stay Safe.
I certainly remember at the Streatham ABC one matinee being told by the projectionist that he had run the adverts and trailer too early and that I could go and take a walk round for 20 minutes or so as the main film would have to start on time and there would be nothing to watch until then.
Hello. Here in Argentina I was a film operator from 1989 to 2015, I worked with both 35 and 70mm, I used Kalle12, Ennermann 9, Century, Phillips brand projectors. The last year I worked was in 2015, and in the cinema where I was we had 2 Victoria 5 projectors, in one room with a plate and in another with a tower, at the top a reel with film and at the bottom It was used to receive the film, and at the end it was rewound in the same tower, if they were functions with 2 films the reel was changed. Then digitalization arrived and the cinema had to close. I had great memories left.
Very nostalgic...In our childhood we were in habit of searching the torn piece of reels in cinema hall and carried home and played with the pieces of reels by switching on a torch keeping the reels in front of it and project the photos on our home's walls.. What a sweetable n pleasant days those were..I still ruminnate the memories of those days n feel extreme ecstasy.... Thanks to you dear sir bringing me to the nostalgic days of childhood by posting this beautiful video..🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
My Grandfather was a projectionist for the first talking movie (The Jazz Singer) shown at the Picadilly Theatre in 1927. He was a Chief Projectionist for Warner Bros and showed premiers to royalty and all the major film stars of the time in a private theatre on the top floor of WBs head office in Wardour Street. He kept a handwritten log of which film he showed and to whom. It's fascinating to read. I also have his 'Sound Reproduction' certification issued by the Guild of British Kinema (that's how it is spelled on the certificate) Projectionists and Technicians, dated 31st March 1930
What an excellent film on projectionists l absolutely loved it... brought many memories back for me from my projectionist days, l believe author of this film missed me
This was an awesome video presentation. Like the people in this video, I have dozens and dozens of stories of running film in my life before we had to go to digital. Those stories will always be special to me as to my life as a projectionist.
Still my favourite job. I got into projection in the final two years of film distribution (2010-2012). The best part was when the projector was getting up to speed then as our automation was broken, opening the douser to allow the light to travel trough the film and onto the screen. Magic.
You've just made my bloody day with this intriguing documentary about film projectionists. As someone who grew up in the 1990s and 2000s, I never had much of the privilege to see the strong heydays of 35 mm and 16 mm cinema exhibitions. But the best thing about going to the cinema in the UK is the whole package- the BBFC black card ("The following film has been passed for cinema exhibition ________, U PG 12 15 18"), the cinema ads (sometimes scaring me more than the film itself I'd see), the trailers especially with the 'U TRAILER' or 'PG TRAILER' before, and those F.A.C.T. piracy warnings.
British Board of Film Censors, 3, Soho Square, London, W.1. This is to certify that The Yellow Balloon has been passed for exhibition when no child under 16 years is present. X
I used to go to the Scala all nighters in the 80s. They sold Red Stripe in cans and boxes of Maltesers. Some nights were utter mayhem because people went there after the pub, great fun.
I was a projectionist from 1971 to the beginning of 1989 in the Denver, CO. IATSE Union Local 230. I once missed a changeover because I could not see the cues on the film due to blinding cigarette smoke from patrons in the balcony seating section. We really had to inspect the film before its first presentation because one in awhile the film shipping bureau would get the reels mixed up. I lost a job due to that. It was a 3 reel documentary from Buena Vista. BV very rarely made those mistakes but I didn't inspect it beforehand. It turned out that I had Part 1, Part 2 and another Part 2. I didn't catch that beforehand. That was my last shift at that theatre.
Wow i remember the good times ,, i was senior projectionist at the Prince Charles cinema and the chief was Amanda Ireland, I've been many cinemas after as chief but sadly digital took over , I got into cinema through my late uncle Jim Carter and his good friend David oddy ,, love the film
As a young boy I dreamed of becoming projectionist one day. That for me was the best job anyone could have. Unfortunately I ended up in Information Technology, but to this day, I still dream...about what could have been.
I was lucky enough to have a month of traning with a small team of projectionist in my 15 years old , they show me how it works and how to load the film on the big wheel and how to splice it correctly with some metalic tape that could automated the change of the lens format during the show, it was a small cinema near my hometown that was indepedant from the big circuit, the owner was the city itself and they show ( art movie) and also foreign movie with subtitle, it was so cool but i never have the opportunity to make this my job.
I used to run films in high school, the stereotypical AV geek was me, i always wanted to be a projectionist but by the time i graduated in 1977 the multiplex theaters were taking over. I got in on the cb radio craze after high school and met talked to a female who said she was a projectionist, i never knew it was a union job until then, i would have liked to work at a drive in theater and there were several within a ten mile area of my house some were indoor outdoor so a drive in and a regular indoor theater on the same grounds but by the late seventies all the drive ins were being replaced by either multiplexes or other things like supermarkets, one about a mile away was built on the site of a drive in only, it started at six screens then two more were added on and in the end became 12, a film would start in the biggest theater then as newer films came out it relegated to the smaller theater and eventually wind up at the very smallest with the smallest one then it was gone. This giant multiplex was built on wet lands basically and they began noticing cracks developing in the lobby floor, the building was sinking so instead of spending God knows what on repairs they decided to shut it down, it sat closed for some 15 or 20 years until someone bought this prime piece of real estate which lays at a location where three major highways, it was only recently torn down and i forget what they're supposed to build there, now there are no theaters close to where i live there are no films worth seeing anyway nowadays in my opinion.
wow beautiful stories..have mine too,,,when was kid try get 35 mm negative film from photos and get light to the wall pretend watching movies,,was in love and my first projector was Eumig Projector Mark 501 Super 8 Single...we are so poor ,,very hard to have that projector all the money my mum to give me
How did TV broadcasting resolve the difference between the projector speed of 24 frames per second vs the TV speed of 30 frames per second? And were movies shot with negatives so they could make prints?
Quite simple for PAL TV, just sped the film speed up from 24 to 25fps. Trickier for NTSC US TV, search for 3:2 pull down on Google. Some clever stuff with interlaced fields.
Television speed is in fact 25 frame per second so a machine in a tv stations was geared to run at that speed and with one frame a second faster you would not notice if was running it at the correct speed of 24 FPS any more than a cinema near where I live had a second hand machine from a tv station, and they ran normal cinema films at that speed [ 25 frams a second ] it just that a 2 hour movie ran for a slightly shorter time
Did anyone split a film from the cake stand to a 1-hour spool when it was 3 parts through (marked) while the film was running? The film never touches the floor. well it did at odeon ipswich
1967, Shipman & kings, Astoria cinema Ashford Middlesex. 1st film. The Greatest story ever told. 4 hour bible epic, twice a day for a week. Junior projectionist in a crew of 4. arc lamp projectors x2.17 years old and not allowed to show X films. 😢. Great job though. Wages £5 a week.
Yes, the river flows. As in all of these workplace histories, that river ends up being, first a sewer, then, cleaned up, a museum. I'm getting too old for thid life.
Still a fair few cinemas around the world screening from prints. Approx 25% of the BFI Southbank programme is on film and places like Watrshed in Bristol and Home in Manchester still have film screenings. Not dead yet! BFI have also screened hundreds of presentations on IMAX 70mm this year. It is undoubtedly much more rare though.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
A really good film that bought back meany happy memory's for me. I left the projection room in 1986 but, I have never been without a 35mm projector at home to keep me sane. Today I have 2 Philips DP70's, Mole-Richardson 490 arc lamps, mercury arc rectifier, a Dolby CP200 processor, D-150 screen and lense and boxes of carbons, total ecstasy.
Wonderful setup! DP70s are the best of the best, I maintain a booth with 2 of them. We've got a CP650, Kinoton SRD readers, DTS XD10 + penthouse readers (custom brackets, no magazines), and a Dolby MPU-1 for 70mm mag. Strong Intl. rectifiers paired with Big Sky L3000s (my least favorite piece of equipment in there, but they work).
I trained in 1957/58 on Kalee 21s at the Gaumont Clapham. I went on to work at the ABC Streatham (and quite a few other theatres) for a number of years as a 3rd and later as co 2nd. I went to Canada for a year and returned to a job at Elstree Studios. I left the industry in 1974 and miss it sometimes. Cleaning mechs was a job for carbon tetrachloride in the old times. Nearly passed out with that stuff. Always played the National Anthem at the end of the night-to an empty theatre most times. We never called them record players. To us they were always non-syncs. The money was rubbish but the smell of an early morning auditorium, the purr of a well oiled machine, and a lot more pluses than you can shake a stick at, made it all worthwhile. I worked for myself when I left the industry and never had time to look back. I'm 78 coming up 79 now and reminisce over all the fun I had. The art of presentation ended with multiplex cinemas. No tabs, no stage lights, no carbon arcs to keep trimmed. It's sad but life moves on.
When I entered the industry the chief interviewed me & told me if this job gets into your blood you will never get it out of it, how right he was, 20 yrs passed with amazing speed, I consider to this day it was the most special & exciting work in the world. On my days off I would go to another cinema & ask my friend in the projection box if he would like some time off in the evening, so in theory I never took a day off.
This was so nice. I never got to be a projectionist but now I can almost call myself one. I love the stories these old masters tell. Experience is so valuable.
Whole lifetimes go into acquiring knowledge and skills and unless these are passed on eventually the craft will be be lost.
Really makes me think about the old cinemas I went to when I was young. These projectionist were like artist in the work they had to do as well as the attention to detail involved and timing. I never realize the pride and reward in a job well done they felt when things came together well. I for one want to say Thank You.
I remember buying those packets of bubble gum with the 35mm film clippings in them around 1955 / 56 when I was 8 or 9. But they weren’t strips of film but around a dozen single frames from different cinema films of the time or slightly earlier. When you had enough empty packets, you took them back to the shop and exchanged them for a little plastic film viewer that you put a frame in and looked through the viewer while holding it up to the light. I still have most of them all these many decades later. Some of them were CinemaScope frames with four magnetic strips on them for stereophonic sound and of course the images on them were anamorphically squeezed. Among the Scope titles were THE ROBE; BENEATH THE 12 MILE REEF; KING OF THE KHYBER RIFLES; CAPTAIN LIGHTFOOT; THE PURPLE MASK and TO HELL AND BACK.
Beautifully done, informative, evocative -- and melancholy. A portrait of "progress" that raises many questions. Thanks for this fine piece of documentary reporting.
Such a touching film. I really felt sorry for those professionals whose jobs were slowly snuffed out. They knew how to put on a show that would entertain and give the audience their money's worth. Now it's just push a button and the whole show is run by computer. Thank you for posting this wonderful film.
Many cases with digital only cinema it is not even push a button. It can be all automated and run from a remote control centre. No technical (projection) staff on site at all.
Wonderful documentary. Three, let's say two and a half generations here as projectionists. My grand-dad began in early 20th century, cranking. Then my dad nearly 50 years in the booth. I did a trick as a young teen-ager, filling in. Great memories at now age 84.
Digital cinema based on rebooting & hoping for the best.
To all the Projectionists.
You are way I became a Theater Technician. Back in the 70's I wanted to be a projectionist. At that time here in the US you had to be in the Stagehand Union and I had no one to sponsor me.
I was fortunate to get a tour of a two rejection booths. One was at a local drive-in theater, and the other one was at a movie house. I remember my Friends had to pry me out of there.
I worked for 35 years in the theater and retired in 2021 and I have always had an appreciation for projectionist.
I was sad when I found out the Union removed the Projectionist.
Great video. Stay Safe.
Киномеханик из России приветствует Вас! Процесс кинопоказа - особый, не забываемый процесс.
Wow! What a wonderful documentary. Thankyou so much for that!
I certainly remember at the Streatham ABC one matinee being told by the projectionist that he had run the adverts and trailer too early and that I could go and take a walk round for 20 minutes or so as the main film would have to start on time and there would be nothing to watch until then.
Hope it wasn't me? I was always on time. Besides, I wouldn't have been back from the pub lunch early enough....lol
@@oldproji Hello. I’m very interested in the ABC Streatham, when did you work there?
Beautifully shot, executed and assembled .Projectionist have great stories of theaters and the Industry ...I could listen to them all day .
Hello. Here in Argentina I was a film operator from 1989 to 2015, I worked with both 35 and 70mm, I used Kalle12, Ennermann 9, Century, Phillips brand projectors. The last year I worked was in 2015, and in the cinema where I was we had 2 Victoria 5 projectors, in one room with a plate and in another with a tower, at the top a reel with film and at the bottom It was used to receive the film, and at the end it was rewound in the same tower, if they were functions with 2 films the reel was changed. Then digitalization arrived and the cinema had to close. I had great memories left.
Wonderfully entertaining and informed compendium of projectionist tales.
Very nostalgic...In our childhood we were in habit of searching the torn piece of reels in cinema hall and carried home and played with the pieces of reels by switching on a torch keeping the reels in front of it and project the photos on our home's walls.. What a sweetable n pleasant days those were..I still ruminnate the memories of those days n feel extreme ecstasy.... Thanks to you dear sir bringing me to the nostalgic days of childhood by posting this beautiful video..🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
My Grandfather was a projectionist for the first talking movie (The Jazz Singer) shown at the Picadilly Theatre in 1927. He was a Chief Projectionist for Warner Bros and showed premiers to royalty and all the major film stars of the time in a private theatre on the top floor of WBs head office in Wardour Street. He kept a handwritten log of which film he showed and to whom. It's fascinating to read. I also have his 'Sound Reproduction' certification issued by the Guild of British Kinema (that's how it is spelled on the certificate) Projectionists and Technicians, dated 31st March 1930
What an excellent film on projectionists l absolutely loved it... brought many memories back for me from my projectionist days, l believe author of this film missed me
Excellent documentary!
This was an awesome video presentation. Like the people in this video, I have dozens and dozens of stories of running film in my life before we had to go to digital. Those stories will always be special to me as to my life as a projectionist.
Still my favourite job. I got into projection in the final two years of film distribution (2010-2012). The best part was when the projector was getting up to speed then as our automation was broken, opening the douser to allow the light to travel trough the film and onto the screen. Magic.
Thankyou for showing this what a brilliant documentary .very interesting
You've just made my bloody day with this intriguing documentary about film projectionists. As someone who grew up in the 1990s and 2000s, I never had much of the privilege to see the strong heydays of 35 mm and 16 mm cinema exhibitions. But the best thing about going to the cinema in the UK is the whole package- the BBFC black card ("The following film has been passed for cinema exhibition ________, U PG 12 15 18"), the cinema ads (sometimes scaring me more than the film itself I'd see), the trailers especially with the 'U TRAILER' or 'PG TRAILER' before, and those F.A.C.T. piracy warnings.
British Board of Film Censors,
3, Soho Square, London, W.1.
This is to certify that
The Yellow Balloon
has been passed for exhibition
when no child under 16 years is present.
X
I used to go to the Scala all nighters in the 80s. They sold Red Stripe in cans and boxes of Maltesers. Some nights were utter mayhem because people went there after the pub, great fun.
I was a projectionist from 1971 to the beginning of 1989 in the Denver, CO. IATSE Union Local 230. I once missed a changeover because I could not see the cues on the film due to blinding cigarette smoke from patrons in the balcony seating section. We really had to inspect the film before its first presentation because one in awhile the film shipping bureau would get the reels mixed up. I lost a job due to that. It was a 3 reel documentary from Buena Vista. BV very rarely made those mistakes but I didn't inspect it beforehand. It turned out that I had Part 1, Part 2 and another Part 2. I didn't catch that beforehand. That was my last shift at that theatre.
Great doc. This is why UA-cam is great.
Wow i remember the good times ,, i was senior projectionist at the Prince Charles cinema and the chief was Amanda Ireland, I've been many cinemas after as chief but sadly digital took over , I got into cinema through my late uncle Jim Carter and his good friend David oddy ,, love the film
I worked with Jim Carter at The Odeon Weybridge, The County Hertford and The Classic Chelsea. He was a great old school projectionist.
Motorized rewind bench, you were lucky we had hand rewinders.
I went from trainee to chief over a lot of years, best years of my life.
As a young boy I dreamed of becoming projectionist one day. That for me was the best job anyone could have. Unfortunately I ended up in Information Technology, but to this day, I still dream...about what could have been.
También disfruté mi vida como proyeccionista y ahora tengo mis propios proyectores en casa. Siempre los tendré cerca de mi.
I was lucky enough to have a month of traning with a small team of projectionist in my 15 years old , they show me how it works and how to load the film on the big wheel and how to splice it correctly with some metalic tape that could automated the change of the lens format during the show, it was a small cinema near my hometown that was indepedant from the big circuit, the owner was the city itself and they show ( art movie) and also foreign movie with subtitle, it was so cool but i never have the opportunity to make this my job.
Lots of things here I never thought of. I was one to look for the projectionist in the window.
OLD IS GOLD
I used to run films in high school, the stereotypical AV geek was me, i always wanted to be a projectionist but by the time i graduated in 1977 the multiplex theaters were taking over. I got in on the cb radio craze after high school and met talked to a female who said she was a projectionist, i never knew it was a union job until then, i would have liked to work at a drive in theater and there were several within a ten mile area of my house some were indoor outdoor so a drive in and a regular indoor theater on the same grounds but by the late seventies all the drive ins were being replaced by either multiplexes or other things like supermarkets, one about a mile away was built on the site of a drive in only, it started at six screens then two more were added on and in the end became 12, a film would start in the biggest theater then as newer films came out it relegated to the smaller theater and eventually wind up at the very smallest with the smallest one then it was gone. This giant multiplex was built on wet lands basically and they began noticing cracks developing in the lobby floor, the building was sinking so instead of spending God knows what on repairs they decided to shut it down, it sat closed for some 15 or 20 years until someone bought this prime piece of real estate which lays at a location where three major highways, it was only recently torn down and i forget what they're supposed to build there, now there are no theaters close to where i live there are no films worth seeing anyway nowadays in my opinion.
Very enjoyable. Fabulous people
Belos depoimentos.🎭🎬🎞️🎥📽️
wow beautiful stories..have mine too,,,when was kid try get 35 mm negative film from photos and get light to the wall pretend watching movies,,was in love and my first projector was Eumig Projector Mark 501 Super 8 Single...we are so poor ,,very hard to have that projector all the money my mum to give me
You can't even get an exhibition permit to project film.in public any more unless it's digital.
How did TV broadcasting resolve the difference between the projector speed of 24 frames per second vs the TV speed of 30 frames per second? And were movies shot with negatives so they could make prints?
Quite simple for PAL TV, just sped the film speed up from 24 to 25fps. Trickier for NTSC US TV, search for 3:2 pull down on Google. Some clever stuff with interlaced fields.
Television speed is in fact 25 frame per second so a machine in a tv stations was geared to run at that speed and with one frame a second faster you would not notice if was running it at the correct speed of 24 FPS any more than a cinema near where I live had a second hand machine from a tv station, and they ran normal cinema films at that speed [ 25 frams a second ] it just that a 2 hour movie ran for a slightly shorter time
DP 70 - live it !
I always think of South Pascific and the Sound of Music when some one mentiones the Philips DP70 machine I wonder why ?
Did anyone split a film from the cake stand to a 1-hour spool when it was 3 parts through (marked) while the film was running? The film never touches the floor. well it did at odeon ipswich
I was only the trainee so dont blame me this would be a Thursday night when the film was coming off so it could be packed while it was running
1967, Shipman & kings, Astoria cinema Ashford Middlesex. 1st film. The Greatest story ever told. 4 hour bible epic, twice a day for a week. Junior projectionist in a crew of 4. arc lamp projectors x2.17 years old and not allowed to show X films. 😢. Great job though. Wages £5 a week.
Somehow, projection was never the same without carbon arcs.
I’ve met a few of these people, Nigel, Amanda and Kore, and a few others look familiar.
Yes, the river flows. As in all of these workplace histories, that river ends up being, first a sewer, then, cleaned up, a museum.
I'm getting too old for thid life.
After watching this, I'm feeling more depressed about the movie business and the decline of film.
The skill sets are gone with less quality with digital presentations. Plenty of memories by technicians who are rarely acknowledged.
The skills will be all lost by the time reel film inevitably returns just like vinyl and tape. Digital is not all its cracked up to be.
cinema now is button pushing now actually of the real thing exists anymore
Still a fair few cinemas around the world screening from prints. Approx 25% of the BFI Southbank programme is on film and places like Watrshed in Bristol and Home in Manchester still have film screenings. Not dead yet! BFI have also screened hundreds of presentations on IMAX 70mm this year. It is undoubtedly much more rare though.