What Passages Teach the Office of Pastor is Reserved for Men?
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- In this video from the Ask Anything Tour, Dr. Mohler answers the question: What passages teach the office of pastor is reserved for men?
You can watch the full episode of this Ask Anything at the link: • Ask Anything Tour | Jo...
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There are many men, including myself, who do not meet the qualifications to be an elder. Instead of focusing on the ONE thing that I cannot do, there are many ways to be a servant that are open to me
Exactly! I am another man who is not qualified to hold any church office, and I am quite fine with that. You raise a very good point brother!
How can a female pastor be "the husband of one wife" (1 Timothy 3:2)?
You keep using this text. What about "women should not speak" or "women should cover their heads?" How can you use 1 Tim 3:2 and ignore others?
How can a single person be a pastor?
@@stephenpauly3624 To me it is very odd that after 2,000 years of church history, all of a sudden within the last hundred years certain groups think it's OK to directly violate what the scriptures say. If it says "women should remain silent" within the congregation of the assembly, then let's go with that! I'm not a big fan of going against what God says.
@@JohnMark1313 The guidance based on 1 Timothy 3:4-5 is a man with one wife and children.
@@stephenpauly3624 How about "twist not Scripture, lest you be like Satan?"
The feminist movement has wreaked havoc on our world.
It is a cancer.
If you read history, the world was pretty bad before feminism too. We need God’s Kingdom. That doesn’t come through arguing about disputable matters.
@@timv6715Scripture is clear on this matter.
Amen.
Exalting and glorifying women is not disputable, but it is ungodly. As would be glorifying and exalting men.
I hope the SBC doesn’t bow to feminism. I’m a Pentecostal and we got this wrong from our foundation. This is why our churches and organizations are so volatile. We need a strong male presence to give sobriety and stability.
Hey me too, yeah it’s so sad what has happened.
And on the church too
Respectfully, I got lost in the excess rambling. I heard the words: "pastor", "teacher", and "elder". Then, positions on church staff were mentioned. So, are women permitted to teach so long as they are not referred to as pastors? Are they permitted to lead ministry auxiliaries as long they aren't referred to as pastors? Is pastor and elder interchangeable?
The Bible says the man is the head of the home as well as managing Gods church. Look at women’s ministries in the New Testament. Hopefully this helps.
If you are willing to share your email address with me, I shall share my very short study (5 or 6 pages) in this matter with you. It answers it far better than Dr Mohler did here. For now, a woman may never be a pastor who is from the elder corps (1 Tim 3:2 says, in the Greek, an elder must be "a one-woman man"). So, women are obviously excluded. All pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. So, women can teach, but limited to teaching women (Tit 2:3-4), since they are prohibited from teaching men (in a church setting) - see 1 Tim 2:11-12. I know a few godly female Bible teachers who teach, but refuse to teach men. Hope this makes sense.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
The Judges were pastors/shepherds. I suggest my free postable
essay on Deborah. Read time: 12 minutes
With reference to you other post above a few minutes ago: (I am blocked to comment there)
I have too much to say about what you write there. I shall say 2 things: 1/ You are attacking inspired Scripture (NT) as having error and being confusing and convoluted. That is a serious matter. I would reconsider if I were you. 2/ In 5 weeks time I am submitting my dissertation on the gifts of the Spirit, with special focus on tongues, interpretation of tongues, miracles, healing, and prophecy - with keen focus on 1 Cor 12-14. If you are willing, I shall email it to you. Don't take it personally, but you are not handling the Corinthians passages you refer to correctly. Keep well. And work hard in the Scriptures.
@@user-iz8np3vv4i judges tells that Deborah prophesied and made disputes between people. No where does it say she was a priest or could be a pastor. Furthermore she was the only judge who did not have military leadership, but instead submitted to the authority of Barack and appealed to his leadership as the military leader.
Who is WISDOM?
The framing of an argument tells as much if not more than the content. When one talks about how "clear" passages are without even discussing them, does it speak to a weakness in the position?
I mean he lists scriptures left and right so….
@@keithbirdwell There are various ways to discuss issues. I can go in depth and talk about the original language, historical context and other supporting and conflicting passages and what my perspective is. Or, I can make high level comments like a podcast I heard that talked about how they were going to go in depth but that amounted to, “we all know all those passages that Paul wrote on the subject,” full stop. The later presents a false impression that it is clear and unquestionable without providing evidence. That is often the sign of a weak position, it is a bluff.
@@JohnMark1313 The Greek of these passages cited states what is stated in the English, even if you take the nuanced alternate meanings of Greek. The intent of the message is the same. A fact that many are well aware. The evidence is overwhelmingly leaning towards one side over the other. There is enough, in fact a good amount, of scripture that notes this as such. Even if you attempt to change the Greek alternative meanings.
I have to say, Dr Mohler (whom I respect), answered this quite poorly.
A woman may never be a pastor who is from the elder corps (1 Tim 3:2 says, in the Greek, an elder must be "a one-woman man"). So, women are obviously excluded. All pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. So, women may teach, but limited to teaching women (Tit 2:3-4), since they are prohibited from teaching men (in a church setting) - see 1 Tim 2:11-12. I know a few godly female Bible teachers who teach, but refuse to teach men.
Although men and women are equal before God, both being image-bearers of God, with no issues of superiority or inferiority, God designed different roles for men and women (patently obvious in child bearing). This is even evident in the Triune Godhead, where we see Jesus (who is fully God and in no way inferior to God the Father), willingly submit Himself to the Father, as Jesus role was to die on the cross to purchase salvation for us (see 1 Cor 11:3).
@@wesselsmith172 Good points but again, we pick and choose what we enforce. If "husband of one wife" (the majority English rendering) excludes women, does it also exclude single men?
You kack the understanding of the one true living God JESUS our Father
The masculine trinity
Let us make man in our image
Paul says the man was made
First and not deceived
The woman was deceived and
In the transgression!
You're a whole lot of wrong.
Quoting from 1tim2 v11 to 15
@@AyeYoFrankyyyy what were they wrong about? You didn't actually say anything.
@@HearGodsWord
Men and women were created in the image of God,
as written in Genesis 1 before the Fall, and Genesis
5 after the Fall.
Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
-excerpt Genesis 1
This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created.
-excerpt Genesis 5
@@user-iz8np3vv4i no-one here suggested that men and women were not both created in the image of God.
There is no case for complementarianism in the Bible. It is the pride of men. Nothing more.
I have to say, Dr Mohler (whom I respect), answered this quite poorly.
A woman may never be a pastor who is from the elder corps (1 Tim 3:2 says, in the Greek, an elder must be "a one-woman man"). So, women are obviously excluded. All pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. So, women may teach, but limited to teaching women (Tit 2:3-4), since they are prohibited from teaching men (in a church setting) - see 1 Tim 2:11-12. I know a few godly female Bible teachers who teach, but refuse to teach men.
Although men and women are equal before God, both being image-bearers of God, with no issues of superiority or inferiority, God designed different roles for men and women (patently obvious in child bearing). This is even evident in the Triune Godhead, where we see Jesus (who is fully God and in no way inferior to God the Father), willingly submit Himself to the Father, as Jesus role was to die on the cross to purchase salvation for us (see 1 Cor 11:3).
NC you haven't made a case against complementarianism, or a case for anything else either.
How many times is the actual term translated “pastor” in the scriptures appear….” preach? teach? Life and the Bible must be taken in its complete whole text. BTW read the text and determine for yourself what the first century ecclesia was like……not historical standing. Treat yourself and read Pagan Christianity!
You don't seem to know the meaning of the word pastor. Pagan Christianity is a terrible read full of misunderstandings and fallacies.
@@HearGodsWord yeah right….even though it’s got plenty of research and documentation! Tell that to Francis Chan and Floyd McClung……not to mention a host of others! It’s amazing how people live out their theology rather than what the first century church actually demonstrated. Oh yeah and be sure the women are totally SILENT, seriously!
@rkersch so you don't know the meaning of the word pastor and instead deflect onto something else.
@@HearGodsWord you’re the genius…… so as translated in Greek how many times is used? Pastor /Teacher….. deflection…..again, right nice try! NOT! Have a nice eternity
@rkersch is such a poor non-answer, which even managed to miss the keyword, and unChristian in attitude too. You did really badly here, and I've heard athiests answer better. Hopefully, the Holy Spirit will convict your heart to repentance.
Tis a pity he skirted the real question.
He gave several passages, so what did he apparently skirt? I guess it's easy to complain about someone without really making a case. It happens all the time on the internet.
I have to say, Dr Mohler (whom I respect), answered this quite poorly.
A woman may never be a pastor who is from the elder corps (1 Tim 3:2 says, in the Greek, an elder must be "a one-woman man"). So, women are obviously excluded. All pastors are teachers, but not all teachers are pastors. So, women may teach, but limited to teaching women (Tit 2:3-4), since they are prohibited from teaching men (in a church setting) - see 1 Tim 2:11-12. I know a few godly female Bible teachers who teach, but refuse to teach men.
Although men and women are equal before God, both being image-bearers of God, with no issues of superiority or inferiority, God designed different roles for men and women (patently obvious in child bearing). This is even evident in the Triune Godhead, where we see Jesus (who is fully God and in no way inferior to God the Father), willingly submit Himself to the Father, as Jesus role was to die on the cross to purchase salvation for us (see 1 Cor 11:3).
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was REQUIRED in scripture to judge only the hardest of cases.
Refusal to accept a Judge's verdict on any matter,
resulted in execution, according to Deuteronomy.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
If your beliefs can't explain all this, they must be false.
Men and women are spiritually equal my friend.
Next, Book of Judges is not normative and has no relation to the NT church. Women may teach, but may not teach men in a NT church setting. Outside of church they may. Think of Acts 18 concerning Aquila and Priscilla. An honest reading says even she corrected Apollos, but obviously in a non-church setting.
My question to you is: Having read the easy-to-understand verses in my original post, what do you do with them? Where and how do they fit into your doctrine and practice? If you cannot, you are guilty of your accusation against me.
@@wesselsmith172
(N.N. personal note)
you wrote:
Women may teach, but may not teach men in a NT church setting.
I wrote a short free essay on Deborah where I look at her
story AND what a Judge was. A Judge could teach from the
Law, that is, scripture. So a woman, Deborah, was cleared to teach men
at about 1100 B.C.
I assume you understand that a 'church' is a group of Christians
gathered together, inside OR outside a building.
you wrote:
...what do you do with them?
Paul's teachings are all over the place.
He writes that if a man is saved and uncircumcised
that he should not be circumcised, yet orders/instructs
Timothy to be circumcised.
Paul regarded himself as a 'father' and referred to
Christian men as 'sons' multiple times. Yet none of
his letters contain the qualifications to be a 'father'.
Referring to oneself as a 'father' was strictly forbidden
by Jesus.
Paul orders an execution, even though he had no
such authority to do so. (Not related to Stephen's.)
Paul states that his version of the gospel is perfect,
yet had no problem with unbelievers preaching.
Apparently believing they would also preach a
perfect gospel.
Paul states he went to Arabia after his salvation
experience, yet Acts states he did not.
Essay outline on some of Paul's teachings
can be posted, if requested. Example below.
__________________________________________
Part 3
PAUL CONTRADICTS HIS OWN TEACHING ON TONGUES AND PROPHECY
So then, tongues are for a sign, ..to unbelievers;
...and all the people speak in tongues, and ...unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane?
...but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe.
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever ...enters...so he will fall on his face and worship God...
In the Law it is written: “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says the Lord. So then, tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe. Therefore if the whole church gathers together and all the people speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
-excerpt 1 Corinthians 14 NASB
Paul states that "prophecy is not for unbelievers" but then states that
prophesying will cause an unbeliever to "fall on his face and worship God".
For 2000 years this stupid question keeps coming up. Jesus Christ did not give His Church the authority to ordain women. Period.
Jesus approved of a woman to be a Judge over Israel in the Old Covenant,
with the authority to judge homicide cases. To believe that Jesus would
strongly disapprove of a woman being an elder in the New Covenant,
makes no sense whatsoever. This is all Paul.
@@user-iz8np3vv4iand Paul was ordained, to use a word by the risen Christ to preach the words of Christ (Acts 9:10-19). Peter refers to Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-18). Therefore, it is clear that Paul’s words, like Peter’s words, John’s words and the words of all the New Testament writers are Christ’s words because he ordained them to that task. Also, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is clear that, “All Scripture is breathed out by God…”. So if, according to Peter Paul’s words are Scripture, they are God’s words, Christ’s words, the Holy Spirit’s words. We may not like them, but they MUST be accepted and obeyed by virtue of the fact they ARE God’s words. I hope this is helpful. I thank God that even though I am imperfect, he is perfect and pure. Blessings of God to you.
My understanding is that all who are baptized into Christ are evangelizers and publishers of the Good News. From house to house and door to door I believe are the words scripture uses. Women however are not allowed to speak or lead prayer in front of the congregation. Nor are they to assist is decision making. We have a clear definition of what an elder is and women are not included in it. Otherwise the whole headship arraignment is null and cancels out Christ
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge's verdict could not be altered or appealed.
A Judge was REQUIRED in scripture to judge only the hardest of cases.
Refusal to accept a Judge's verdict on any matter,
resulted in execution, according to Deuteronomy.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
If your beliefs can't explain all this, they must be false.
@user-iz8np3vv4i no-one said that women are not spiritually equal to men. Deborah was a judge, not a pastor. She was under the old covenant, not the new covenant. Just because one thing was ok under one, it doesn't necessarily mean it's okay under the other.
@@HearGodsWord
(In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word
shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has
obvious meaning to the average person.)
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that
was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament
shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way.
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray.
-excerpt Jeremiah 50
For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may
check out Ezekiel 34.
When the shepherd over Israel died, the people went back into sin. That is because the Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period.
But it came about, when the judge died, that they would turn back and act more corruptly than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them and bow down to them; they did not abandon their practices or their obstinate ways.
-excerpt Judges 2
Deborah, full essay read time: 12 minutes, free, postable
@@HearGodsWord what do you do with the female Apostles listed in the NT? Just curious. Asking for a friend!
@@user-iz8np3vv4i you like to write long comments but ignore what people have said. My points are the same as before.
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God deals more with man. Hence circumcision.
Paul said; Though it be a man's covenant.
All your high priests, priests, were men. A man offered up gifts to God.
Now, in Christ, there is no male or female. But in this life, in the family, the man is the head. Even in church. Christ is the head of the body, the church. The church is the bride. Male and female. One spirit, in Christ.
No. A woman cannot pastor.
Yes. Only men. Get over it
1 John tells us that it is only when we obey God's laws that we can be quite sure that we really know Him. The man who claims to know God but does not obey His laws is not only a liar, but that he lives in self-delusion. In practice, the more a man learns to obey God's laws, the more truly and fully does he express his love for Him. Obedience is the test of whether we really live "in God" or not. The life of a man who professes to be living in God must bear the stamp of Christ.
Obedience is the expression of love to God. Obedience means that we live in God. And if we live in Him, our lives bear the stamp of Christ. Our aim must be to know God. Our obedience is what leads to the fulfilment of this aim.
You cherry pick verses to support your stance yet ignore others.
"Cherry pick"? Lol, you only need ONE! Raised solely by women were you? It shows.
No. We have heard all about what folks have to say about "the others" and we're not impressed
@@conceptualclarity You're not impressed? Wasn't trying to impress you. When you take the Bible as a whole, not just 1Tim 3:12, there's no way you can prohibit women from speaking and leading. Mohler says women can do everything else, just can't preach. That's cherry picking verses. If "women should keep silent in the churches" 1 Cor 14:34, then I'll cherry pick that verse and say women can't lead worship, sing in the choir, teach children, speak at women's breakfasts, make announcements, etc. No difference here than in 1 Timothy 3:12.
@@stephenpauly3624 Sounds like you're cherry picking because you don't like what it says. That mindset is what led the UMC General Conference to commit that Satanic abomination concerning the LGBTQ a couple of weeks ago.
@@stephenpauly3624cherry picking is how we ended up with female pastors
The best, most godly pastors I've known have been women.
Women are not to be pastors. The title of pastor as, Albert Mohler said, often isn't used in proper context in churches.
They aren't pastors.
@Gordon-dz7qs But what does God have to say about it?
Then you have only known ungodly pastors. You cannot be godly and say that God is wrong. If you cannot follow the Church's rules you certainly are not fit to teach others those rules. What you apparently want is a Mommy to hold your hand and tell you that you are a good little boy. Well. you are NOT a good little boy. You are a rebellious brat and so are the women "pastors".
I simply do not believe that. Perhaps you have known some godly women, we all have, but they were not pastors according to God's word. There are many godly women and many godly men. And the reverse is true as well. Sorry if that offends you, but it is what the Bible teaches, as is explained in this video.