You've just made my day xD The only reasonable answer! :D My first thought watching episode 86 (Son Goku asks 17 for a picture of his wife and children and he took out his mobile) was: Apple, Microsoft phone or Android? xD
If we just had the simple explanation of 17 saying something like "I don't run out of energy, therefore I can train at 100% intensity for as long as I want" things would make so much more sense.
This was said. He mentions this to android 18 at the beginning of the tournament of power. Referring to them having the advantage of not running out of energy while everyone else gets burnt out.
Exactly 17 literally says this what ppl have to understand is that’s an advantage off top so it’s not if necessarily he stronger it’s just the other fighters are running out of stamina and 17 is relatively is still at full power during the whole tournament. Yes he definitely had gotten stronger thru training but having a stamina less advantage was key to his success.
I didn't mention anything about the tournament of power. I'm talking about how strong he was in super, period. He went from being comparable to cell saga piccolo to being above a tournament of power saga ssj3.
@@Zekersaurusrex The people who replied are telling you that the thing you asked for, 17 explaining that infinite energy allowed for effectively infinite high level training, is exactly what 17 explained that he was able to do. Aside from mentioning it in the beginning of the ToP, I'm pretty sure he mentioned it when people first came to the island to recruit him. He very much told people that he trained, and since he never got tired he could train as much as he wanted. So it did make sense.
In the manga, he actually trained with Cell jrs, which would explain the increase. 1 cell jr is around SSj 1 level, and in the manga andirod 17 trained with 17 of them
I'd like to believe that 17 became a Park Ranger as a sort of memorial to 16 and his love of nature. Also I personally believe that after what 17 went through getting absorbed by Cell he would want to make himself as powerful as possible so that he never feels that helpless again, especially after getting married and having kids.
@@thetoastcart9360 to be fair, they didn’t have much of a life to begin with. They were turned on once, and got shut down shortly after, the rest of their lives they spent either as normal kids, or unconscious science projects before being released to the world with nothing but their raw power. Not much time to train if you ask me.
To add on the Cell theme, do you remember how in the Tournament of Power, 17 didn't let someone transform to reach a more powerful form... Yeah, he made sure to not make the same mistake again.
I think 17's training was influenced by his endless energy trait. There literally isn't much difference in body structure from goku to krillin, goku's is just accustomed to producing and maintaining a lot of ki and energy compared to humans. Everyone simply gets stronger because they traing their ability and limit of ki, since ki is both your armor and your weapon. And since 17 never gets tired and has an endless ammount, he can translate that to training like hell, something the humans can't do. Edit: I just noticed the entire video never mentioned the endless energy, come one man, everyone forgets that for some convenient reason.
I always understood the "endless energy" thing as he can use energy forever but the amount he can release at once is fixed because of the reactor. kind of like "unlimted data" you have endless data but you still have a max download speed
That's an interesting and good point. Endless energy can make a difference. If'I'm not mistaken, some character in Dragon Ball Z mentioned that the androids have limitless energy. Dr. Gero might have brought it up. I'm not sure.
Here is the actual best explanation. 17 has infinite stamina( energy wise), he can keep training forever and ever and no matter how hard he pushes himself he won't need to rest before trying again. Goku and Vegeta are like superhumans who get a gigantic boosts after they break themselves completely working out once or twice a week. 17 is like a normal human who can go to gym 7 days a week and heals on the spot after working out his max rep before breaking his record again.
For some reason, I've always liked 17. Maybe it was his design, I don't know. He always felt like a more "normal" Trunks, design wise. As for power, something that people constantly forget is that 17 and 18 aren't androids. They're cyborgs. They're alive, genetically engineered people, with cybernetic parts attached to make'em stronger. 17, if pushed to the edge, could theoretically be just as strong as anything alive on the Dragon Ball universe, given that his cybernetic parts allow him to train/fight without ever feeling tired, which makes him push past his limitations a lot easier than most characters.
Agreed, but this gives us hope that one day.... I mean to hear Piccolo actually say out loud that it doesn’t make sense for him to train with the the saiyans is downright hurtful 😣
Ze TheGame he trained along with the fact he was the only one who had unlimited energy and stamina ,, so as the fight wore down and other characters used there power he was fresh ..
Freeza trained for 4 months and became above god level and people are fine with it. 17 with unlimited stamina trains for more than 10 years and is above god level, but people call bs. I will never understand this community
Adrian Lopez ture,but what resources does 17 have to train with? Unlimited stamina is nice but with nothing to build muscle you're just toning your body. Vegeta and tien trains can train for a long time because has less responsibility. 17 not only has a job but also a family. More importantly nothing on Earth can help with that . That's why Goku and Vegeta has alternatives. Frieza nose there is even higher levels of power because of beerus. So he has something to work towards. But also he has to technology.
Honestly, when looking at all the power ups in Super, 17’s is one of the most believable. - Gohan: trained for a day with Piccolo and got more powerful than ever. - Future Trunks: got a never explained transformation taking him from SSJ2 level to God level. And later pulled of a spirit bomb. - Caulifla: learned SSJ1 and SSJ2 in minutes. - Freeza: trained for 4 months and jumped all the way to SSB level. And later got even more powerful just by meditating. - Broly: In one fight went from being weaker than Base Vegeta to beating SSB Goku and Vegeta. At least 17 trained for a substantial amount of time. Not to mention, if Freeza’s excuse was that he was already very powerful before training. The same thing should ably to 17, but it would actually be less of an ass pull, since he started out much more powerful than Freeza and trained much longer.
@@kingvr4684 Piccolo only closed the gap when he merged with Kami. Without that fusion, 17 would have beaten him again. Piccolo had to train and merge with Namekians to become strong enough to compete with him. 17 already had a major lead and a significant advantage. His potential was already greater from the start of the arc.
Notice how they're all not human. Not that it matters anymore. It's simple, power scaling due to bad writing due to needed convenience. Marketing is the explanation. Dragon ball is just a cash cow now, dont overthink it.
@@thephapster if anything, they look younger :L they just need to change their designs relative to their age, they shud be looking more like teen gohan rather than kid goku
Summary of the video: 10 minutes of figuring out how many years happened between the end of the Buu saga and when 17 fought Goku in Super. 2 second answer as to why 17 is SO strong? ...He trained. High quality here.
17 doesn’t get tired, fatigued, or lose energy. 17 is literally a constant infinite supply of energy. So as the battle goes on his chances increase exponentially. This is great writing because this was a tournament of intelligence and endurance. 17 embodies all the those qualities!
If that’s true then he would have been able to fight cell. Or he would constantly improve skill like hit was doing against goku. It’s bad writing and the show just wants to keep reintroducing characters to milk nostalgia so they shoehorn them in like this
@@NuclearNuke41 sorry but he's not like 16, he gets stronger just like living fighters/mortals. I suppose being able to reach *ALONE* levels of goku blue who was training with whis is kind of far fetched but the androids have excellent potential and growth, just like frieza, they are vastly superior to sayians imo
Plus......he was literally designed to fight Goku all his moved is programmed in his software so he technically knows what Goku is about to do ....hint the reason his eyes activated and dodged the next move
@Depressed_until_dead No he doesn’t, they never got stronger in the future timeline where they basically used Gohan as a training partner for decades. It’s just bad writing & insulting that they glazed 17 yet disrespected Piccolo, Tien & Gohan
I love how multiple characters who’ve committed genocide just come back as loved heroes. Dragonball has morals as consistent as it’s power scaling system.
That was the 17 from Trunks's alternate future timeline, the 17 from the main timeline was different, he wasn't a killer, unless we're talking about Doctor Gero! But 17 had a good reason to take revenge on him, considering Gero captured and experimented on him against his will and then tried to take his free will in life aswell by ordering him about!
Gero thought he creaded the perfect being when he made Cell! But the reality is that No 17 is the true perfect being Saved 8 Universes and billions of lives
How did he save universe 8 when goku put him on back up so frieza and goku can run jiren off the cliff? You really think frieza and 17 were gonna take Jiren?
You’re overthinking it. Android #17 power doesn’t lie in his strength, which probably isn’t As strong as Gohan. His Power lies in his evasiveness and his unlimited ki generator. I don’t think Jiren ever hit 17 with a full in punch like the ones Goku was taking to the face like. 17 knew how to maneuver himself into the most advantageous position to make maximum use of his ablilities.
He’d still have to be strong enough to not get instantly killed by like backdraft or residual energy, so he’s gotta be at least a percentile (even if a small one) of the top super characters who are in the hundreds of quintillions. Whereas In cell saga characters were scratching the low billions. Even being generous and placing 17’s power then around 10 billion, he’d still be 1,000,000,000 times stronger now to be 10 quintillion, which is probably as low as you could possibly be to even exist in the same space as guys like Jiren who’re in the ~400+ quintillion range without just exploding or something. Nobody has done anything close in any amount of time to multiplying their power level by a factor of billions through training without some kind of form change. Not to mention he didn’t have anyone teaching him how to get stronger.
Lorkhan Reed Well I mean most Android 17 estimations don’t even put him anywhere near a billion. Usually it’s around 3-4 hundred million. Totally Not Mark’s power level series put Beeris around 400 quintillion I think, and Jiren is stronger than his own god of distraction, so him being up there with Beeris makes sense. Even if I’m off by multiple entire factors of 10 it’s still a level of power growth so absurd there’s no precedent in the series for its existence.
If 17 has always had that kind of potential in the first place, considering the factors you mentioned; he wouldn't have lost to first form Cell way back in Z. And unfortunately skill becomes irrelevant anyways once the power scaling passes factors of even 10's, let alone thousands. Good guess but sorry dude, sense cannot be made of 17's power.
Frieza admits to never training a day in his life, he trains and BAM golden Frieza. 17 and 18 were basically "born" into their android form and had no time to train either when we first saw them in DBZ. I say its completely possible that 17 in his solitude had the time to train his body and how to maximize all his mechanical enhancements. And lets not forget the never running out of energy part.
Well they were normal kids, then kidnapped, "adjusted" then forced under threat of being blown up to kill some random guy. get free briefly. get killed by cell wakes up. wonders for a bit.. Finds a life as ar anger finds a family... for a traumatized kid? Who got all that? making sure he was strong enough to keep it would be on his list. plus effectively coudl go without sleep for a very long if not forever if they wanted to.
it isnt' really mechanical.. Ya gotta read some japanese guides or find well done translations. its bioengineered, not pure mechaincal. 19 and 20 were mechincal 17 and 18 were nanite+some mechanical. the only purely added mechanics were the power source and a few other bits. most of it was nanites changing their body compoisition and reinforcing. So they're still flesh and blood. still property of humans. just reinforced. It is why 18 could actually have children.
Whilst not canon, but then again, the whole series is a nod to plenty of non-canon aspects. In Dragonball GT, Gero and Myu state that 17 had even greater than Cell. Cell was a being made up of the best fighters, including Freiza, a being who could go from weaker than SSJ children to god level in 4 months of training. Cell had more potential than Frieza, and 17 supposedly stronger.
I have no problem with him being the last one standing due to him having infinite energy. It makes sense since that trait basically allows him maintain peak fighting shape and use as much energy as he wants throughout the tournament. But his actual strength had no business being on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. That was a little much.
Lewis Yafano That’s true , it’s just the fact that jiren has been training his whole life whileas 17 surpassed majority of the z fighters within 14 years and he had no special abilities like the saiyans fo
@@xtcy5922 think about it androids if trained or with time on the hands can have no limits realy they simply technology that can be improved constantly they power is undetectable. They op as fuck in my eyes 😂
freiza train for 4 months and become nearly god level.....surpass blue level by dangling from a tree : folks are fine with it 17 who base strength was way stronger than namek freiza train for 10+ years : people can't accept it i'll never understand this fandom
i don't remember hearing that many complaints when the movie came out and i'm sure as hell didn't hear that many complaints when he fought evenly with blue goku after getting revived and his reason was "i trained mentally" everyone was fangasming over his gold transformation lol
C Vox I don't remember people accepting Frieza being blue level after he train for 4 months. Also when Goku was recruiting people to join T.O.P everyone complain about 17, Frieza, Roshi, and Gohan getting way too powerful because they just train off screen and only train for a day and somehow gotten stronger(Gohan). There's even videos about it, but if you don't believe that, then that just tells me you only watch the episodes and don't even pay attention to the community on how they think about these episodes.
@@actuallyanimatics2938 so he trained like ruffy in one piece, *spoiler alert* lol who was two years at the women's island with the animals. Just that ruffy had reileigh and 17 was alone
Lorkhan Reed maybe he has different energy since he is a cyborg, maybe he could only give a small amount because goku could only use human energy, maybe
Piotr Actually it kinda does, infinite energy means he could train without worrying about having to rest, versus a saiyan or human needing to rest to replenish their strength.
If Frieza (a prodigy) could go from 120 million to beyond Super Saiyan Blue Goku in 4 months just beating Tagoma to a pulp for 4 months then why is it hard to believe that 17 (with Android enhancements) couldn't get a power increase like that from fending off poachers for probably well over a decade? I always used the "logic" of Pokemon video games. If you get a level 5 starter Pokemon and stay on Route 1 while battling for a couple of days. Slowly but surely you'll have a fully evolved Pokemon (level 36 or so). Ridiculous, but remember that 17 doesn't have Cell or Buu-tier opponents on the island he protects. He is constantly fending out poachers (ironically level 5 by the standards set by the farmer Radtiz used his Scouter on) and their tanks, etc. so with their repeated attempts and failures, Android 17 was able to get stronger (thanks to his Android enhancements) by constantly protecting the island. Just my two cents.
Well... Frieza and the sayan race are way beyond stronger than human race...frieza trained 4 months for the first time in his life and got the golden form... But how can 17 get so strong .... That makes no sense...and i should mention piccolo...he was also as strong as android 17 on cell saga...and piccolo also trained this 10 years also.......and piccolo manages to surpass ssj2 gohan some how.... Dbs is not as great as dbz...but still it is dragon ball....their might be some reason showing 17 so strong...and i didnt find him so strong to be compete with ssgss..they were holding back..
Yeah think about it if he could actually train in the HBTC who knows how powerful he could get, his body wouldn't require any kind of rest even the Saiyans needed to pace themselves.
trillmatic waves he is not even close to being a genius. Figuring out the enemy's weak point is just common sense. Plus, all 17's plans failed miserably.
17 just grew up. He matured and his human anatomy and biological enhancement fully integrated into his being. This perfect fusion of human and bio-cybernetics resulted in a massive power up that was only made stronger by the training he was doing to be able to protect his family from powerful threats to Earth. Since they can't sense him his training went unnoticed. I just came up with this. There's nothing in series that supports it.
He would've been helpful. he just hadn o clue what was going down.. Until the human destruction wave thingy. Which he would've survived and likely would've been looking for the cause . but can't sense stuff. doesn't know kami's lookout. probably ran around thoroughly pissed until the world blew up. OR. far more likely. because Buu was detecting Life, and androids give no energyA Buu didn't blast anywhere near 17--who was in the middle of no where with animals and such. So he probably never had any clue and just.. blew up with the earth and then didn't know until brought back and heard the Vegeta call for help
@@zwordsman then how about his family? Surely human extinction technique killed them. He would know The simplest, most realistic answer is Toriyama didn't think about DBS back then. Because no way in hell Supreme Kais didn't ask for Whis' help to wake Beerus, or teleport to other universes, or even to Zeno. Supreme Kais can teleport anywhere in DBS
Yeah he just train hard unlike the other z fighters because they thought they was peace after cell and majin buu defeat so he 17 didn’t use that as an excuse just kept training stronger pretty much can hang with SSJ3 Goku as in the manga and as you can see SSJ Blue Goku doesn’t mean he’s stronger just as strong enough to hang with because he wanted to get stronger and not weaker or lazy prob figure that out after he got whooped by cell like I ain’t letting that happening again lmao
Zelleon Gexcior trust me super 17 isn’t on the same level as super 17. I mean I guess he could have the potential to be but 17 is a very smart fighter and would likely just go hand to hand combat and win.
The man does have a point, if you are to assume DBS 17 is this strong because he's been training all this time it's only logical he'd be even stronger in GT since it takes place after the events of super.
Thomad 90 obviously went to college during the time skip as well. I mean technically speaking if he never runs out of energy he shouldn't need to sleep so he can work 24 hours a day every day probably.
No, he literally said he was forced to use blue and didn't intend to lmfao. He didn't say that shit with anyone else lmfao. And then in the TOP we saw 17 against greater than god of destruction jiren and characters like toppo so yeah. He's blatantly above god level not even close lmfao. Remember everything above initial red hair super saiyan god is considered god level and 17 is far far beyond that. Goku specifically said he was forced to use Post frieza post room of Spirit and time post universe 6 tournament blue lmfao. And then even stated that 17 was still holding back as well lmfao. So yeah this is not even arguable
You're just in denial, 17 was the first to harm Jiren, the most useful against Anilaza, the one that protected Goku and Vegeta from Jiren's blast, the one that engaged at Jiren while both SSB Kaioken Goku and Evolution Vegeta were being pushed back, the same one that could hold Toppo and even dodge GoD Toppo, and a long, loooooong, etc. 17 is a beast, he's bare minimum Blue level, much higher as the Tournament progressed.
17 is unironically casually low multiversal lmfao scaling to Jiren and Goku who can shake and affect infinite space all at once, which is 4D no matter how you look at it. I simply don't understand people saying it's not 4D. You can't affect infinite 3D space with finite 3D abilities lmfao
@@ExtraVictory Not necessarily, having infinite power would allow you to affect an endless 3D structure, and yet that can still be zero to a 4D being. Just like how you can stack infinite squares one on top of the other and still end up with 0 height.
@@Dexuz that isn't the case, because we know in the Dragonball verse ki directly scales to AP DC and durability. Meaning enough ki to affect infinite 3D space isn't relevant to infinite boxes with a height of zero. Every unit of ki DOES have tangible effect. Meaning you're stacking infinite boxes with a height of nonzero. Meaning you will end up with infinite 3D power
You clearly didn't watch the arc for most of the fight frieza completely bodies goku then goku proceeds to notice how quickly freiza's burning through his power and then only after freiza's burnt trough most of his power goku gets the win
remember that mental training was only in RoF. in Super, i think that Frieza actually physically trains(hence why the guy that Ginyu changed with had Luke Cage skin)
C Vox His golden form was always above blue his body just wasn't use to it. The power was burning up more energy than the body could supply it. Vegeta stated that.
If your base power level far surpasses freiza's third form and frieza can just train a bit to surpass ss god, why couldn't 17? 17 never gets tired, or at least never runs out of energy, so while an organic body like freiza's would inevitably produce lactic acids and force him to stop training, 17 could just go and go and go non stop. I think it makes sense is just explained poorly/ not at all
frieza is an alien you'd have to scale with yamcha or krillin for 17 also his base would be like 5 and since he couldn't be sensed by Z Fighters it's still sitting pretty close around 5 he still has his life
i mean, The androids being stronger than freiza in the first place was pretty lazy. And then in the tournament we see an entire universe who sepcialize in making organic/cybernetic hybrids but are just far worse at it than dr.gero. dont get angry now that android 17 is broken, db is just jumping into the hole it dug itself back in z
You want the answer? Cause akira wanted someone other then goku, gohan, or future trunks to save the day. so he picked 17. he HATES vegeta. so 17 it was
Android 17 had been sitting in a box for years before he fought cell. He has unlimited energy and never gets tired. He could train for ten years straight if he wants to.
I really feel that android's should not be able to train, they should have like a power limit and they just need to upgrade their parts to become stronger or something. Bulma could help them with that.
@@jonathancerda794 In reality frieza and 17 would be destroyed by some of the villians from the other umiverses. Only Goku and Vegeta would put up a fight cause they are pretty much Gods now.
Right! Him fusing with himself made him on the same level as SSJ4 Goku, so it isn't hard to believe that he could train to be as strong as SSB in 13 years.
DBS fans are dumb as shit. Android 17 trains on an island with no fighting experience or intense training for 10 years and becomes as strong as SSJ Blue. Two Android 17’s fuse and they become as strong as SSJ4.
The universe survival arc is pure Android 17 fanfiction. The man did more damage to Jiren than freaking Vegeta. And while Goku was using God Ki for the first time to fight Beerus, Android 17 would technically be stronger than that already. Think about that. Goku and Vegeta were basically catching up to him until the Goku Black Arc LOL
17 only took hits at a exhausted Jiren who was beaten by Goku and was being rocked by Goku and Freezia. Freezia even said he couldn't detect the unbeatable power in him anymore. Vegeta was punching peak Jiren. Remember by the end 17 has limitless stamina, everyone else is tired and has less energy, 17 would be as strong as at the start.
KaizerFaith So because Android 17 damaged a worn out Jiren using his barrier and tricks, he is more powerful than SSB Evolution Vegeta who single handedly eliminated Toppo? That makes no sense. Also, 17 couldn't even touch Toppo.
The only issue is that your argument relies on the assumption that Goku powered up to blue out of necessity. Goku could have been using this form to represent stronger opponents that might be faced in the tournament. He also could have done it to hide his power level because god ki is undetectable by mortals. Now, I still think it was lazy writing, but it’s possible it’s not.
Exactly! People are ok withFreeza getting stronger by meditating from Resurrection of F until the Tournament of power ark, but are for some reason not ok with 17 getting stronger after some sort of training for 10 years.
I've read a lot of the comments others have put forth and I agree with a lot of them. 17 being so strong can be explained by him simply training 24/7, having greater base potential then Freiza (he started out stronger then even Cyborg Frieza as we saw him) and then going on to train for 14 years straight and just being fully capable of wearing opponents down in a fight while always being in 100% form. I think the main reason we're all so shocked with his progress is that we've been watching 18 all this time and seen her train and just expected him to be around the same level purely because they're twins. That expectation essentially crippled how we see the both of them. We'd seen them at similar strength in the Cell Saga, and we'd seen her train with Krillin every now and again and just assumed 17 would be around the same level as her. But whereas 18's done nothing but laze around and relax, 17's always been pushing himself, refining his abilities and done what Jiren basically did. Jiren's not human so thats a terrible comparison but I'm just trying to explain that Saiyans aren't the only mortals capable of reaching such levels of power. 17 has every right to be Tournament of Power level as any of the other universe combatants. And without basic human limits, theres no telling just how strong we could get, right? 17 and 18 dont really have those same limits as regular humans - they have a new limit thats beyond what Krillin, Tien and Yamcha can achieve. So yes, it was explained and portrayed in Super in a very lazy way, but it makes sense with all things considered. He certainly has more right to be as strong as he is than Kale and Caulifa...
The problem is that the super saiyan forms are multiplicative boosts. 17 could train harder theoretically but he has nobody to fight to push his limits, he doesn't get zenkai boosts because he isn't a saiyan, and he has no transformation. When Goku gains SSG he becomes multiple times stronger than SS3, when he goes SSB hes multiple times stronger than SSG. For 17 to match that, he wouldn't just need to be training more often than Goku, his training would also have to be insane orders of magnitude more efficient - which we know cannot have been the case because 17 didn't fight perfect cell, didnt fight in the other world tournament against the strongest ghosts in the universe, didnt fight buu, and doesn't spar with vegeta. For 17 to match SSB goku after Goku fought Hit - it means he was far beyond SS3 goku before it we even saw Goku go SS3 the first time. It means he could have literally clapped any form of Buu at any point during that whole arc (and 18 should have called him for help), and also it means he could have clapped the first Golden freiza.
The real explanation is that Dr. Gero decided to make some money by installing a KiCoin miner on the androids. The vast majority of their resources were taken up by mining, so they were massively suppressed all the time. Gero was going to turn this off before sending them into combat but he died first. Years later, one of 17's cooling fans started rattling, and when he went to Geek Squad for service, they shut down the mining software and he was able to operate at full power. The sad thing was that all the KiCoins were still being mined to Dr. Gero's wallet even after his death, and nobody was ever able to retrieve them.
My way of understanding it is that after his humiliating defeat at the hands of Cell, 17 probably didn't want that to ever happen again. So, given that he has infinite stamina, and therefore can't train without resting, he proceeded to train far beyond the limits of a regular living organism. In between times, he was protecting the island and met his wife and had the family. 13/14 years of that sort of training without much rest would allow his power to skyrocket. Should he be as strong as SSJ God? Absolutely not. But stronger than Buu isn't really that much of a stretch.
Well...he's not a "robot" like 16, 19 and 20....his Android enhancements (and 18's) were made on a cellular level so that they COULD get stronger if they trained, with a crazy EXP multiplier thanks to a madman's genius. Infinite Ki, never gets tired...he could literally train in the hyperbolic time chamber for a whole year (1 day) STRAIGHT...never stopping to eat, drink, recover or sleep....not even the Sayians can do that...the Androids are OP...and honestly i kinda like that, and i love their lore...humans def got left behind in the DBZ story when it comes to power levels...even Nameks cant keep up anymore. So i like how through good ol fashioned human ingenuity...we were able (and HAD to) create (in a Frankenstein kinda way) these beings that CAN keep up and even surpass the Z fighters...Welcome to Earth >:( ...the Sayians are badass...Frieza's race is OP on their own, Namek's are terribly strong...Buu's race is like...WHAT!?........humans tho? not so much...so it was VERY HUMAN of "us" to create these "Terminators" to take out these OP race.... but of course in the Trunks timeline we end up destroying ourselves along with them....VEERRRYY human of us....now in Super we get to see both Androids fighting on our side as good guys (Terminator 2)..... not to mention 17 and 18's ridiculous in-sync fighting style...NO ONE beats their teamwork...not even Goku and Vegeta. I freaking LOVE the Androids.
I have one extra note to add to this. 17 has infinite energy (or stamina or endurance or whatever it really is) which is basically his gimmick. Also why towards the end of the tournament, Goku and others used 17 as a sort of turret multiple times, because his blasts didn't cost anything. So take 13 years of training, all of the knowledge he has that Gero collected of Goku, and the fact that he can fight basically forever, it means he could train as long as he wants indefinitely without needing to stop and rest.
Kanade Lapis It's not head canon, it was stated in the anime and the manga that Androids have infinite supply of energy, and since they're androids, they have endless stamina.
BlakeVsMainStream so what infinite energy means you can fight with god teir characters who are leagues ahead of you? Infinite doesn't matter when a opponent can one shot you this show is about strength not techniques and tricks like Goku had no chance to beat beerus in BOG unless he unlock a new form to increase his strength 17 is an inconsistent fanfiction character who has next to no explanation about his power even if there is a explanation it will be bullshit has he is a an Android and an Android cannot be a fuckin god teir level character cause he has no power ups no zenkai boost nothing to increase his strength just infinite stamina
zeus117 Jackson Huge strawman. I never said that 17 was stronger than anyone. I was simply telling you that Android 17 has an endless supply of energy, so while everyone is getting weaker and drained, 17 is staying at the same power level. If you're going to argue with me, at least argue with what I said. I was telling you that his endless supply isn't headcanon.
@Merciless Freak again he’s an infinite android model they’re one of a kind or in this case 2 of a kind they wouldn’t just stay at the same power level for years
@Merciless Freak no infinite stamina does not equal Infinite power but it does give him potential cyborgs are different than sayians they don’t need to eat nor sleep so they probably don’t even need to train to much either
according to google "Updating your Android. Make sure your device is connected to Wi-Fi. Open Settings. Select About Phone. Tap Check for Updates. If an update is available, an Update button will appear. Tap it. Install. Depending on the OS, you'll see Install Now, Reboot and install, or Install System Software. Tap it.:
Heh lol, bring on platinum rainbow perfect cell, he's has : 1. Saiyan cells 2. Freeza cells 3. Piccolo cells 4. 17 & 18 "cells" Imagine the potential, with just a week of training he'd be above the grand priest!
You have a point, cell has saiyan cells and Frieza cells and if them 2 can get stronger (golden frieza and SSBlue) i dont see why Cell cant surpass them both.
one time in the series, 17 said to 18 that androids never get tired, so i think one of the reason why he's strong and able to compete with the saiyan is not really brute strength but endurance.
17 was able to keep up alongside SSBKx20 Goku(post-zenkais) and SSBE Vegeta(post-zenkais) when they rush towards Jiren on multiple occasions and was forcing Jiren to block and dodge meaning he was comparable to that Goku and Vegeta. He even took a kick from Jiren MEANT for SSBE Vegeta. So he’s atleast SSB Kaiokenx20/SSBE tier. Endurance is irrelevant to his feat of power.
People have to remember that 17 has the advantage of infinite power. He never runs out of energy. Within those 10 years, I think he probably figured out how to fully maximize his potential and power. The thing that I learned about 17 from the Tournament of Power is how incredibly intelligent he is in battles. He picks up things much faster than other fighters and most often he was the first to find weaknesses in his opponents. He definitely got much more powerful but when he fought Toppo & Jiren, he was fighting smart and strategically instead of going at them head on. As an artificial human that has infinite energy and was stronger than SSJ in his base level, 17 has massive potential. So its not as shocking to see just how powerful 17 has become after over a decade.
if you want to get stronger you need to challenge your self and push harder every day. so i dont see how android 17 could push him self to SSB level by kicking weak human asses. even with his unlimited stamina.
No, but your opponent would have passed out from exhaustion getting pummeled with small blasts every second by someone that could create barriers non stop. Persistent consistency of power and stamina is hard to beat if you aren't allowed to destroy it.
Easy really. Gohan was completely useless in the start of super standing no chance against Beerus. Gets shit on by Freeza. Doesn't participate in the university 6 vs 7 tournament. But at that point Gohan says I'm going to start training again and his character begins to develop from the scholar to a fighter again. Gohan was absent in the trunks/goku black arc. Finally the T.O.P comes around and we know that Gohan has been training with tough opponents like piccolo, Goku, and Krillin growing his power significantly. and then 17 gets this asspull power by training with humans who stand no chance against someone like Raditz. Like c'mon I get artificial humans can grow in power but the boost was WAY over the top! Android 17 at BLUE level Goku?! Like c'mon man. Freeza's power was an asspull as well! Gohan trained so hard for so little for this series and to keep it 100 Gohan should've done what 17 did
Ace Robinson "and then 17 gets this asspull power by training with humans who stand no chance against someone like Raditz." It was never stated that was the reason why stop spreading misinformation...
You forget that Goku was just feeling him out. He went super Saiyan blue to see if 17 could be on par with it just in case they might run into a power just like it in the tournament, altho 17 was holding back as well, it would not have ended in his favor. Don't get me wrong 17 is wicked Strong but when it boils down to it, Kakarot wins that bout. As for what could have happened, he has been training and the z fighters couldn't feel his energy since they can't sense androids. Right under their noses. Which is pretty cool of Toriyama
O.G. John Doe He's right you know... Frieza's soldiers have a power level of 2.000 and Roshi's power level was around 400. And if buff Roshi isn't a x5 multiplier he would have died and even if it was he would have wasted all of his power on 1 Frieza's soldier. He ended up taking like 100 down. (Picollo says the amount I just forgot) And an example is that Cell and Goku had roughly the same power level and that fight could have killed them. Goku and Jiren had roughly the same power level and that fight could have killed them. So I'm all honesty Roshi taking hundreds of Frieza's soldiers is complete bullshit because we never saw him train (I know Goku mentions that he trained a bit but that was after the Goku black arc)
Zion Falconi remember That is well established that Frieza's henchmen are nothing but a shadow of his former Army, they HAD power level of 2k back in Namek in their prime, now they're just lackeys, in more impressed he kept up with a version of Frieza in the middle of the tournament.
Just means that Roshi could of handled Raditz when he came to earth. Why didn't he? Because if you were a horny old man would you leave a young Bulma's side? lol
17 was created stronger than Frieza. If Freiza can go god-like in 4 months, Android 17 should also be able to power up as well. Not to mention, having infinite energy comes in handy for training. Imagine if we had infinite energy, how much stronger we would get in a few years.
Minetic In reality with Frieza " Gains " if he trained the same amount of years Goku did his ENTIRE life Frieza would logically be Angel level, This dude train 4 months just to be above Goku at max power, its took Goku till what? His late 40's to achieve what Frieza did in 4 months.
Just because someone was initially stronger than someone else doesn't mean they'll have better potential/scaling as well. If that were the case, Goku would be the weakest person in all of Dragon Ball.
This arc was more about clashes of ideals expressed through battles rather than power scaling anyway. People just like to miss the actual narrative and complain about numbers.
Super definitely has its problems, and while the power scaling isn't great, it's got nothing to do with the narrative for the Universe Survival Arc. When it comes to the narrative the arc was trying to follow I think it did so well. The arc explored clashes of ideals between the values of love, pride, and in the end they explored trust. People are just too busy wondering why "X" character is so strong even though it's irrelevant.
that makes zero sense about a fighting anime. So if the narrative is more important than actual logic then anyone can just beat anyone in any show whenever they want as long as they are in the right and more important to the shows story?
We're talking about a series that started off purely as a comedy. Dragon Ball has never been full of logic. People want to complain about 17 getting so strong while training off screen for roughly 14 years? Well, hey. Goku achieved SSJ2 and SSJ3 off screen in seven years. He got SSJB off screen as well. I guess Super Saiyan God wasn't much of a big deal if Goku surpassed it in a mere year. It's simple. The characters will always be as strong as they need to be in order to fit the narrative. That's how Dragon Ball has always been. No one wants to complain about these things because they let their nostalgia blind them.
I've been watching dragon ball for a while now and never minded the numbers. It's not necessary and if anything, just causes problems. Its a good point as well about the clash of ideals over powerscaling. It was the whole point of the universe survival arc. Another thing to point out is that the TOP shouldn't be proof of a characters absolute power since they need to hold back enough to not kill anybody. People just complain about it a lot and forget about the theme of the arc which is the Clash of Ideals
This is my theory for Androids.. This video brings me to the original question that how did even Androids 17&18 surpass Super Saiyan in first place..despite in the fight of Android 19 &20 Gero stated that they never recorded Namek fights...My theory for this would be...Main Z characters use ki powers as in life-force powers...And Beerus & Whis use Divine ki..God life force...but Androids power is always a mystery and their energy levels cannot be detected...So When Goku, Vegeta and Trunks went Super Saiyan on Earth...Androids 17 and 18 are also able to channel the same energy spectrum which Goku,Vegeta and Trunks opened for them...I believe Gero designed them in such a way that no matter how strong opponent they face they tap into their opponent's spectrum and defeat them...And that's how 17 was able to match Goku's SS Blue But Cell is an advanced version of them..So they couldn't beat him...
This would also make sense because the androids in future Trunks' timeline were weaker than in the main timeline for some mysterious reason. It could be because the fighters in Trunks' timelines didn't know about the androids and didn't train for their arrival, so they wouldn't be as strong
Have you seen DB logic on wife, kids and job though? 17 has to fight off some poachers as they appear which (even at his original level) he could do in seconds if he wanted to and his wife and kids are somewhere away from the island he doesn't dare to leave alone for a day. Even Goku has kids and a job, no-one minds his absence (even when he's alive.) Vegeta has two kids. Gohan and Krillin have a wife, kids and job but still chose to continue training and get back to their original level in days, all the whole being great, very present, fathers.
To me it makes sense, he was flat out stronger than Goku and Frieza by just being an android so him training for 10+ years should put him at top tier just off LOGIC. This is DRAGON BALL. For the last few decades it's been pretty fucking simple. You train you get stronger. 17 had a whole 13-14 years and people think he'd be below Cell still? 13-14 years is literally from 4745-5110 days which is a fucking eternity for us let alone somebody above SSJ Namek Goku. Are you people kidding me?
Kid Cree Make sense? Sure, it make sense that 17 is now stronger. He may be comparable to Goku and Vegeta by also training for 14 years. BUT the latter has access to senzu beans, gravity chamber, hyperbolic time chamber, equally powerful sparring partners, mentors like the Kais and FUCKING WHIS, transformation multipliers including GOD FUCKING KI, and lastly their battles with monsters like Cell, Buu, Beerus and Black. 17 has poachers, animals his ranger job and A FUCKING FAMILY that prevents him from training non-stop. Make sense, huh?
17 is not blue level. Simple. And 17 never said all he did all day is fight poachers and theoretically he could train for nonstop for days on end. They should have elaborated on what he did but does it really matter? He's not blue level, more like Gohan level or slightly above it, and he has infinite stamina and good fighting tactics which is why he was picked. If you're gonna bitch about this then bitch about ALL of DB'S ASSPULLS. DB has never been consistent, people just look at Z with rose tinted glasses.
Kid Cree Please, you think I never did that shit? I was too young to understand and complain back in DB/DBZ days but do remember the fuss about Goten and Trunks back in the day, everyone complained about GT, I complained about Freeza getting bs powerups after a few months, I hated that they didn't choose to just give Hit "god ki" to give some sense how he was able to beat Vegeta with ease, how base Black was able to go toe-to-toe with SSj2 Goku, Mirai Trunks' FUCKING SSJRAGE like being angry was a new thing for ssj transformations, was mad about the whole Kale/Caulifla/Cabba "different evolution" crap, etc... BUT DO REMEMBER THAT THIS VIDEO IS TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT 17. THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T SEE ME "BITCHING" ABOUT THE OTHERS. IF YOU SEE A KALE/CAULIFLA VIDEO, THERE ARE ALSO RETARDS THERE THAT TELLS ME WHY I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT 17. I say: "BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THE FUCKING TOPIC OF THIS VIDEO!" PS, I don't wanna "bitch" about it anymore but your comment really did it for me. "Make, sense" my ass! You guys are the reason why DB keeps getting worse. Now that I explained my position, now you're telling me why does it matter? Continuation and plotholes. I know you're gonna resort back to DB and Z's own plotholes like every ass-kisser does but let me stop you there. 20+ years is a long enough time for Toriyama and Toei to improve their craft and fix these problems, right? But yet, even despite of failures like GT they decided: "FUCK IT! Forget planning ahead. Let's just do what we always do." What? You think they shouldn't learn from their past mistakes? Super doesn't have to be perfect, but there's no reason NOT to put any effort to it. I'd rather have bad animation rather than bad story-telling. But we have both!
That's the thing though, it's never been consistent for a reason. It's just the way it is. Goku took somebody to the fucking moon with his powerpole IN THE MANGA. He's been OP since a kid and his power increases have always fluctuated between a little and a lot. The animation for Super is shit, the writing for Super can be called shit, but the power scaling is spot on for something DRAGON BALL related. Let's head to Z: Raditz had 20 years, countless missions, and alien training technology and got shitted on by Piccolo's special beam cannon. Sure he beast moded them at first but he still should be leagues above them. Vegeta and Nappa were both below 20,000 WITH YEARS OF PREPARATION while Frieza boasted a 120,000,000 just because. Piccolo shitted on the moon in an instant just like Roshi except the DB portion was more about jokes and they were purposely OP. Most if not all of Gohan's power boosts before Cell Piccolo surpassing Saiyan Saga Vegeta with less time than Goku while training by himself and not using Kaio Ken. Nail being BODIED by First Form Frieza but giving Piccolo a boost big enough match Second Form Frieza. 5 human made/enhanced androids surpassing Frieza: 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. Piccolo going to Kami, one of the weakest allies on the team, fusing and SHITTING ON THE REST OF THE CAST except 16 and Cell. Future Gohan never improving and losing to 2 weaker androids then in Goku's timeline despite fighting them for YEARS, but Trunks surpassed Frieza and King Cold by a mile after 3 years by FIGHTING THE ANDROIDS. Both fusion techniques: SSJ3 Vegito is over 160,000x stronger than Base Goku, and 2 kids that would get shit on by SSJ2 Gohan fused and surpassed SSJ3 Goku. Goten and Trunks transforming with no real training despite Future Trunks not transforming until 14 with training. Ultimate Gohan in general. He's above SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Gotenks. That's his max power, he had a max power potential of above his dad because of his plot hax. As long as he trains more than and harder then his dad then he'll have more potential because why not? Didn't Trunks, a hybrid, leave at Grade 3 in comparison to his dad? He was pretty much equal to him and Grade 3 was too slow if he would have used it in a fight against Vegeta. Trunks stays around Goku and Vegeta but Gohan can go FAR BEYOND all 3. SSJG being above SSJ3 Vegito despite it being used by some ancient saiyan. That saiyan needed a power WELL OVER 160,000x his base for some fucking reason. Had Goku gotten SSG in the Saiyan Saga he would have SHIT on Frieza. The least dumb of all the shit DB has done is 17's case. Do you know what a scientist from the DB era must have had to do to make 16, 17, and 18 such monsters? Maybe 17 needs MUCH LESS TRAINING then Goku and the rest. Who knows? Should they explain? Yes. Is it that bad? NOT REALLY. Not as bad as Vegeta and Nappa, 2 SAIYANS, BEING VASTYLY INFERIOR TO ZARBON AND DEDORIA FOR 20 YEARS. Not as bad as FUTURE GOHAN TAKING CONSISTENT Ls FOR YEARS. THIS IS DRAGON BALL, THIS IS HOW IT GOES, IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR "LOGIC" YOU NEED TO LEAVE. Something as simple as "Well their race's fusion is OP" is enough to pass here. This series specializes in "Just Because".
Real pot hole here is, future 17 wasn't this strong and he fought Gohan for the same amount of years (future Gohan's death happens the same year the top would have in that time line )
Kanade Lapis current one trained fighting poachers, we've seen that the max power level of most humans is around 5 (or for our most extreme cases being the z fighters somewhere in the 10,000s up to early millions) future 17 for the same amount of time fought a super Saiyan Gohan regularly which would be training in itself even if it was a death match so was the ToP and people were getting stronger there too.
PokeHokage Training is not the same thing as fighting fodders though. We know 17 fought poachers but we don't know if that's all he did, I doubt he even considers it training.
That's because the Androids (originally) couldn't get stronger aside from Cell. They were built to be stronger than SSJ and that was pretty much it. None of this bullshit even existed back then, it's just sheer laziness. By Super's DERP-DEE-DERP "training" shortcut standards, 17 would've been a god in Trunks' future and Frieza would've been golden before he came to earth and was surprised by Trunks.
I don't see why it's hard to swallow. Like the Frieda Race, The Androids have seemingly unlimited potential. They are basically posthumous. I know they don't have Frieza DNA, like cell, I merely mean they are artificially evolved to have similar unlimited potential. In the Android saga, they had never even trained, just like Frieda. Then Frieza went gold after a month.
I agree. I try to tell people to keep in mind, Androids 16, 17, and 18 were already originally built far stronger than regular Super Saiyans. Everyone had to train just to catch up to them. The same goes for Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu. These people did not train a day in their lives, they were all born or built stronger than Super Saiyans and Goku, Vegeta, and the rest had to train or fuse just to catch up to them. It is therefore not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that if the Androids, Cell, Frieza, or Majin Buu actually did train, they would easily catch up to or surpass Goku, Vegeta and the others. In fact, if Cell or Majin Buu both trained hard I believe they could both surpass Beerus. I believe Black Frieza already has.
Android #17 got that Windows 10 update
Elian Gonzalez but if that's true, he can't pirate anymore power because Windows defender.
You've just made my day xD The only reasonable answer! :D
My first thought watching episode 86 (Son Goku asks 17 for a picture of his wife and children and he took out his mobile) was:
Apple, Microsoft phone or Android? xD
Oreo
You mean Android Pie update? lol
That would downgrade his performance ha
He took off every samsung part on his body and replaced it with nokia part.
The funniest person award goes to.. Pns Pensiun!!
Lolololol
PNS pensiun, bisa aja sempak Dakocan
Faaacts 😂😂😂
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO😩😩😩😭😭
If we just had the simple explanation of 17 saying something like "I don't run out of energy, therefore I can train at 100% intensity for as long as I want" things would make so much more sense.
Project Zeker lmaoooo
This was said. He mentions this to android 18 at the beginning of the tournament of power. Referring to them having the advantage of not running out of energy while everyone else gets burnt out.
Exactly 17 literally says this what ppl have to understand is that’s an advantage off top so it’s not if necessarily he stronger it’s just the other fighters are running out of stamina and 17 is relatively is still at full power during the whole tournament. Yes he definitely had gotten stronger thru training but having a stamina less advantage was key to his success.
I didn't mention anything about the tournament of power. I'm talking about how strong he was in super, period. He went from being comparable to cell saga piccolo to being above a tournament of power saga ssj3.
@@Zekersaurusrex The people who replied are telling you that the thing you asked for, 17 explaining that infinite energy allowed for effectively infinite high level training, is exactly what 17 explained that he was able to do. Aside from mentioning it in the beginning of the ToP, I'm pretty sure he mentioned it when people first came to the island to recruit him. He very much told people that he trained, and since he never got tired he could train as much as he wanted. So it did make sense.
he trained with honey badgers, those things are vicious.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
trueeeee
Yep
In the manga, he actually trained with Cell jrs, which would explain the increase. 1 cell jr is around SSj 1 level, and in the manga andirod 17 trained with 17 of them
😂😂
Well he deserved it, it’s not like there’s another character who is a beloved former villain.
*Piccolo has left the chat*
Lol they gotta put more respect on piccolo's name yo I'm sick of it
Ethan Davis *Vegeta will remember that*
General Grievous *Majin Buu will remember that*
@@VapricKnight
Meh, Majin Buu is a dumbass anyways.
17 was never really a villain to begin with though was he
He just used vegeta's legendary training regiment: push-ups, sit-ups, and a whole lot of juice
Saitama training
Brandon Sloggett I see you’re a man of TFS culture
@@Phoenix-pm2qr why of course
This isn’t the result of poultry training, this is destiny. For as you see your not dealing with the average android anymore he is a super android
Nah to get that strong he did the sit ups then push ups
My man made a 12 minute video just repeating he might’ve trained
i mean ur right but at the same time he was trying to prove that it makes sense. validate it
What u should be saying is my man made a video about cartoons when hes how old
@@heelp2370 Except it doesn't make sense.
@@heelp2370 it doesn't
@@BerserkGoat I could see that, but that doesn't explain when Goku recruited him for the tournament of power.
I'd like to believe that 17 became a Park Ranger as a sort of memorial to 16 and his love of nature.
Also I personally believe that after what 17 went through getting absorbed by Cell he would want to make himself as powerful as possible so that he never feels that helpless again, especially after getting married and having kids.
I think 17 was like frieza, he never trained in his life, but when he trained he got a massive boost.
@@thetoastcart9360 to be fair, they didn’t have much of a life to begin with. They were turned on once, and got shut down shortly after, the rest of their lives they spent either as normal kids, or unconscious science projects before being released to the world with nothing but their raw power. Not much time to train if you ask me.
Neat concept
@@neitherlink6612 they were human BEFORE they were androids
To add on the Cell theme, do you remember how in the Tournament of Power, 17 didn't let someone transform to reach a more powerful form... Yeah, he made sure to not make the same mistake again.
I think 17's training was influenced by his endless energy trait. There literally isn't much difference in body structure from goku to krillin, goku's is just accustomed to producing and maintaining a lot of ki and energy compared to humans. Everyone simply gets stronger because they traing their ability and limit of ki, since ki is both your armor and your weapon. And since 17 never gets tired and has an endless ammount, he can translate that to training like hell, something the humans can't do.
Edit: I just noticed the entire video never mentioned the endless energy, come one man, everyone forgets that for some convenient reason.
1
That's exactly what I was thinking. He could train so much harder without him getting tired.
I always understood the "endless energy" thing as he can use energy forever but the amount he can release at once is fixed because of the reactor. kind of like "unlimted data" you have endless data but you still have a max download speed
Yeah I thought it probably had a bit to do with the endless energy too
Dude I was just thinking this, don’t they get stronger from absorbing in energy in general? Easy answer right there.
That's an interesting and good point. Endless energy can make a difference. If'I'm not mistaken, some character in Dragon Ball Z mentioned that the androids have limitless energy. Dr. Gero might have brought it up. I'm not sure.
Here is the actual best explanation. 17 has infinite stamina( energy wise), he can keep training forever and ever and no matter how hard he pushes himself he won't need to rest before trying again.
Goku and Vegeta are like superhumans who get a gigantic boosts after they break themselves completely working out once or twice a week.
17 is like a normal human who can go to gym 7 days a week and heals on the spot after working out his max rep before breaking his record again.
Why didn’t he help with Majin Buu
@@lightinstinct707 it's his choice!!
dhruv sharma That’s not very “human” of him
@@lightinstinct707 😂😂😂 yeah it isn't
I was about to post that, thank you for being big brain
Perhaps he follows another man's routine...
100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats, followed by a 10KM run, every single day.
VASCO!
MORE THAN 3 YEARS
Chance4Doom so once he gets bald he’ll be one of the strongest in the series
So your implying super is a gag anime?makes sense.
Hahaha, yes
For some reason, I've always liked 17. Maybe it was his design, I don't know. He always felt like a more "normal" Trunks, design wise. As for power, something that people constantly forget is that 17 and 18 aren't androids. They're cyborgs. They're alive, genetically engineered people, with cybernetic parts attached to make'em stronger. 17, if pushed to the edge, could theoretically be just as strong as anything alive on the Dragon Ball universe, given that his cybernetic parts allow him to train/fight without ever feeling tired, which makes him push past his limitations a lot easier than most characters.
I want 17 and 18 to get a transformation that turns them into apple devices XD
I hate that 17 is at God level...but my boy Piccolo is capped out after the Kami fusion.
Agreed, but this gives us hope that one day....
I mean to hear Piccolo actually say out loud that it doesn’t make sense for him to train with the the saiyans is downright hurtful 😣
NaMaeus and still the green man kicks ass.
You all complaining but over here we got my boy Vegeta who didn't even kill Frieza Goku stole his kill
Fr
I think its all bullshit
"Because he trained maybe" I just saved you 12 minutes.
Pretty much this in a nutshell.
Thanks
It's steroids, android 17 is on steroids from 16 years
@@wrestlingplusboxing4770 He's roiding out!
Ze TheGame he trained along with the fact he was the only one who had unlimited energy and stamina ,, so as the fight wore down and other characters used there power he was fresh ..
Freeza trained for 4 months and became above god level and people are fine with it. 17 with unlimited stamina trains for more than 10 years and is above god level, but people call bs. I will never understand this community
Agreed
This lol
Best comment I’ve ever seen
Adrian Lopez ture,but what resources does 17 have to train with? Unlimited stamina is nice but with nothing to build muscle you're just toning your body.
Vegeta and tien trains can train for a long time because has less responsibility. 17 not only has a job but also a family. More importantly nothing on Earth can help with that . That's why Goku and Vegeta has alternatives. Frieza nose there is even higher levels of power because of beerus. So he has something to work towards. But also he has to technology.
Who tf was fine with the Frieza part?
Honestly, when looking at all the power ups in Super, 17’s is one of the most believable.
- Gohan: trained for a day with Piccolo and got more powerful than ever.
- Future Trunks: got a never explained transformation taking him from SSJ2 level to God level. And later pulled of a spirit bomb.
- Caulifla: learned SSJ1 and SSJ2 in minutes.
- Freeza: trained for 4 months and jumped all the way to SSB level. And later got even more powerful just by meditating.
- Broly: In one fight went from being weaker than Base Vegeta to beating SSB Goku and Vegeta.
At least 17 trained for a substantial amount of time.
Not to mention, if Freeza’s excuse was that he was already very powerful before training. The same thing should ably to 17, but it would actually be less of an ass pull, since he started out much more powerful than Freeza and trained much longer.
I'd say broly is believable since he's supposed to have that legendary hidden power. He is meant to be unrealistically op.
Piccolo was also constantly training so...yeah. I dont dig 17's buff at all.
@@kingvr4684 Piccolo only closed the gap when he merged with Kami. Without that fusion, 17 would have beaten him again. Piccolo had to train and merge with Namekians to become strong enough to compete with him. 17 already had a major lead and a significant advantage. His potential was already greater from the start of the arc.
Notice how they're all not human. Not that it matters anymore. It's simple, power scaling due to bad writing due to needed convenience. Marketing is the explanation. Dragon ball is just a cash cow now, dont overthink it.
Caulifla, Broly, Gohan all have saiyan blood, makes sense. Frieza is a prodigy alien. Makes sense....17 is just pure plot armor
I think 17's failure to measure up to cell's power and being absorbed by him must've been motivation to get stronger.
13 years? And goten and trunks haven’t even aged one bit
Sherbert The destroyer from the cell saga not buu saga
@@707milly2 6 years? And goten and trunks haven't even aged one bit....atleast make them like teen gohan
@@yaseebraja5382 They definitely aged
@@thephapster if anything, they look younger :L they just need to change their designs relative to their age, they shud be looking more like teen gohan rather than kid goku
They secretly treat them with anti-growth hormones, just like the Simpsons kids. Those monsters! >:-(
Summary of the video:
10 minutes of figuring out how many years happened between the end of the Buu saga and when 17 fought Goku in Super.
2 second answer as to why 17 is SO strong? ...He trained.
High quality here.
Thank you for this.
Nohawkkid008 exactly why I unsubscribed 😂
Nohawkkid008 I’ve noticed that this is his video recipe. Little annoying, but it’s slightly insightful to some degree.
Thanks
Yeah poor video this one.
17 doesn’t get tired, fatigued, or lose energy. 17 is literally a constant infinite supply of energy. So as the battle goes on his chances increase exponentially. This is great writing because this was a tournament of intelligence and endurance. 17 embodies all the those qualities!
Sorry but theres no fucking way he would cought up to Super Sayin 2 levels of power, let alone Devine God powers...
If that’s true then he would have been able to fight cell. Or he would constantly improve skill like hit was doing against goku. It’s bad writing and the show just wants to keep reintroducing characters to milk nostalgia so they shoehorn them in like this
@@NuclearNuke41 sorry but he's not like 16, he gets stronger just like living fighters/mortals. I suppose being able to reach *ALONE* levels of goku blue who was training with whis is kind of far fetched but the androids have excellent potential and growth, just like frieza, they are vastly superior to sayians imo
Plus......he was literally designed to fight Goku all his moved is programmed in his software so he technically knows what Goku is about to do ....hint the reason his eyes activated and dodged the next move
@Depressed_until_dead No he doesn’t, they never got stronger in the future timeline where they basically used Gohan as a training partner for decades.
It’s just bad writing & insulting that they glazed 17 yet disrespected Piccolo, Tien & Gohan
If an anime character has the curtains style hair.... You know he's gonna be strong
ネコ-ivan-くそ Levi 😂
It's one of the anime cornerstone rules, totally legit!
Trunks
Dxvid Krxm lmao curtain 😂😂
@@dkashh1953 no I think levi has a bowl cut
17 just REALLY wanted that cruise, obviously :P
They need to bring Piccolo back up in the power scale...
Bernabe Garcia Exactly‼️
You’re not lying at all
Bernabe Garcia it’s possible
Bernabe Garcia The powerscaling is broken lol at this point I’m sure they can make him higher than God Goku but lower than Blue somehow
He needs to fuse with more Namikans.
I love how multiple characters who’ve committed genocide just come back as loved heroes. Dragonball has morals as consistent as it’s power scaling system.
owenvocal he did beat the fuck out the z warriors
@@lightinstinct707 beating them isn't genocide tho
17 didn't really do much of anything in this timeline. Tien and Yamcha did worse in DB...
That was the 17 from Trunks's alternate future timeline, the 17 from the main timeline was different, he wasn't a killer, unless we're talking about Doctor Gero! But 17 had a good reason to take revenge on him, considering Gero captured and experimented on him against his will and then tried to take his free will in life aswell by ordering him about!
KimiDesu most villains come to back to help Goku.. Yamcha, Tein, Piccalo, Vegeta, Android 17 & 18, and now Freiza lol
Gero thought he creaded the perfect being when he made Cell!
But the reality is that No 17 is the true perfect being
Saved 8 Universes and billions of lives
Super Vegito! It's been a while man, 17 is the true MVP. :)
True
Super Vegito try quintillion’s lives
Big facts
How did he save universe 8 when goku put him on back up so frieza and goku can run jiren off the cliff?
You really think frieza and 17 were gonna take Jiren?
He just installed an i9 9900k and overclocked to 5.4ghz with liquid nitrogen cooling
that would just cause condensation from the air on the pins and fry the thing, but ok
@@MrFishtoot are you dumb
Lol and an rtx 2080ti overclocked
Can't forget the super charged chromium difubliator.
Eyes running SLI for battle frames, android master race.
17's method 100 pushups 100 sit ups run 100 km a day. And drink plenty of juice.
*10km
TSRUBRATS and always eat a well balanced breakfast...
100 squats
TSRUBRATS And 100 Electric sheep
Haha
I always forget the detail that 17 doesnt need sleep or food so he can literally train 24/7 for 14 years.
You’re overthinking it. Android #17 power doesn’t lie in his strength, which probably isn’t As strong as Gohan. His Power lies in his evasiveness and his unlimited ki generator. I don’t think Jiren ever hit 17 with a full in punch like the ones Goku was taking to the face like. 17 knew how to maneuver himself into the most advantageous position to make maximum use of his ablilities.
This!
He’d still have to be strong enough to not get instantly killed by like backdraft or residual energy, so he’s gotta be at least a percentile (even if a small one) of the top super characters who are in the hundreds of quintillions.
Whereas In cell saga characters were scratching the low billions. Even being generous and placing 17’s power then around 10 billion, he’d still be 1,000,000,000 times stronger now to be 10 quintillion, which is probably as low as you could possibly be to even exist in the same space as guys like Jiren who’re in the ~400+ quintillion range without just exploding or something.
Nobody has done anything close in any amount of time to multiplying their power level by a factor of billions through training without some kind of form change. Not to mention he didn’t have anyone teaching him how to get stronger.
@@keenanmccarty9925 you're pulling those power levels out of your arse.
Lorkhan Reed
Well I mean most Android 17 estimations don’t even put him anywhere near a billion. Usually it’s around 3-4 hundred million.
Totally Not Mark’s power level series put Beeris around 400 quintillion I think, and Jiren is stronger than his own god of distraction, so him being up there with Beeris makes sense.
Even if I’m off by multiple entire factors of 10 it’s still a level of power growth so absurd there’s no precedent in the series for its existence.
If 17 has always had that kind of potential in the first place, considering the factors you mentioned; he wouldn't have lost to first form Cell way back in Z. And unfortunately skill becomes irrelevant anyways once the power scaling passes factors of even 10's, let alone thousands. Good guess but sorry dude, sense cannot be made of 17's power.
Frieza admits to never training a day in his life, he trains and BAM golden Frieza. 17 and 18 were basically "born" into their android form and had no time to train either when we first saw them in DBZ. I say its completely possible that 17 in his solitude had the time to train his body and how to maximize all his mechanical enhancements. And lets not forget the never running out of energy part.
Well they were normal kids, then kidnapped, "adjusted" then forced under threat of being blown up to kill some random guy.
get free briefly.
get killed by cell
wakes up.
wonders for a bit..
Finds a life as ar anger
finds a family...
for a traumatized kid? Who got all that?
making sure he was strong enough to keep it would be on his list.
plus effectively coudl go without sleep for a very long if not forever if they wanted to.
it isnt' really mechanical.. Ya gotta read some japanese guides or find well done translations.
its bioengineered, not pure mechaincal. 19 and 20 were mechincal
17 and 18 were nanite+some mechanical. the only purely added mechanics were the power source and a few other bits.
most of it was nanites changing their body compoisition and reinforcing.
So they're still flesh and blood. still property of humans.
just reinforced.
It is why 18 could actually have children.
Whilst not canon, but then again, the whole series is a nod to plenty of non-canon aspects. In Dragonball GT, Gero and Myu state that 17 had even greater than Cell. Cell was a being made up of the best fighters, including Freiza, a being who could go from weaker than SSJ children to god level in 4 months of training. Cell had more potential than Frieza, and 17 supposedly stronger.
Adam Shaw they aren’t mechanical, they’ve just been enhanced, I mean 18 has a kid so I think that should say enough
Of course, frieza supposedly NEVER trained. I guess he was born already knowing all these martial arts skills...
As Keanu Reeves once said: “Hmm. Upgrades.”
Someone killed his dog thus releasing his dark side.
Vie I mean, he is a park ranger now, so I wouldn’t wanna mess with his animals in general lol
You mean: "Hmm... Updates."
I have no problem with him being the last one standing due to him having infinite energy. It makes sense since that trait basically allows him maintain peak fighting shape and use as much energy as he wants throughout the tournament. But his actual strength had no business being on par with Super Saiyan Blue Goku. That was a little much.
Jiren trained by himself and was stronger then a God of destruction. Yal forget that ?
Lewis Yafano That’s true , it’s just the fact that jiren has been training his whole life whileas 17 surpassed majority of the z fighters within 14 years and he had no special abilities like the saiyans fo
@@xtcy5922 think about it androids if trained or with time on the hands can have no limits realy they simply technology that can be improved constantly they power is undetectable. They op as fuck in my eyes 😂
With this logic Gt Goku should be above Android 17 in Super cause Gt Goku trained for almost 20 years STRAIGHT
@@lightinstinct707 With Uub as a sparring partner on top of that
@@lightinstinct707 well no cause 17 trained for 34 years :3
_and goku was reverted to a kid and 17 fused with his equal_
freiza train for 4 months and become nearly god level.....surpass blue level by dangling from a tree : folks are fine with it
17 who base strength was way stronger than namek freiza train for 10+ years : people can't accept it
i'll never understand this fandom
no one was fine with frieza getting that strong in that short amount of time. What are you talking about?
i don't remember hearing that many complaints when the movie came out
and i'm sure as hell didn't hear that many complaints when he fought evenly with blue goku after getting revived
and his reason was "i trained mentally"
everyone was fangasming over his gold transformation lol
Tell me about it lol
Lmfao!!!!
C Vox I don't remember people accepting Frieza being blue level after he train for 4 months. Also when Goku was recruiting people to join T.O.P everyone complain about 17, Frieza, Roshi, and Gohan getting way too powerful because they just train off screen and only train for a day and somehow gotten stronger(Gohan). There's even videos about it, but if you don't believe that, then that just tells me you only watch the episodes and don't even pay attention to the community on how they think about these episodes.
Didn't he say, he as Android doesn't have stamina issues?
So he just trained all day every day 13 years and that's it?
But he also had to range the hell out of that park.
@@actuallyanimatics2938 so he trained like ruffy in one piece, *spoiler alert* lol
who was two years at the women's island with the animals. Just that ruffy had reileigh and 17 was alone
xAimFailx Ok then
because the story needed him to be... that's it
goodnight everyone
peace
really it isn't that complicated lmao
Frieza got insanely strong in 4 months, 17 had 10 years
We saw 17 in Boo arc which isn't too long ago his energy alone should've been more than enough for Kid Boo
Lorkhan Reed maybe he has different energy since he is a cyborg, maybe he could only give a small amount because goku could only use human energy, maybe
@@Jam-og1km but goku isn't a human though
@@Jam-og1km goku can use human energy ? are you serious?
RKO 1718 I meant for the spirit bomb, I thought he could not use android energy for the spirit bomb, so 17 could not share his full power
I mean infinite energy, infinite potential.
Comic Drake They have no correlation with eachother
Piotr Actually it kinda does, infinite energy means he could train without worrying about having to rest, versus a saiyan or human needing to rest to replenish their strength.
Comic Drake it also mean his sister cam ride none stop
ras 47 But can Krillin?
Yeah, he was probably just powering up for a continuous 13 years.
If Frieza (a prodigy) could go from 120 million to beyond Super Saiyan Blue Goku in 4 months just beating Tagoma to a pulp for 4 months then why is it hard to believe that 17 (with Android enhancements) couldn't get a power increase like that from fending off poachers for probably well over a decade?
I always used the "logic" of Pokemon video games. If you get a level 5 starter Pokemon and stay on Route 1 while battling for a couple of days. Slowly but surely you'll have a fully evolved Pokemon (level 36 or so). Ridiculous, but remember that 17 doesn't have Cell or Buu-tier opponents on the island he protects. He is constantly fending out poachers (ironically level 5 by the standards set by the farmer Radtiz used his Scouter on) and their tanks, etc. so with their repeated attempts and failures, Android 17 was able to get stronger (thanks to his Android enhancements) by constantly protecting the island.
Just my two cents.
Tyler Perry's The Haves and the Have Nots Review stupid opinion
Frieza trained in hell.....
In the cucoon he learned how to control ki....thats how he knows how to accend to the level of the gods....
PHÂNŤØM ĐŘaG he got his golden form after four months of training after being revived.
I speculate that he just trained nonstop for 10 years
Well...
Frieza and the sayan race are way beyond stronger than human race...frieza trained 4 months for the first time in his life and got the golden form...
But how can 17 get so strong ....
That makes no sense...and i should mention piccolo...he was also as strong as android 17 on cell saga...and piccolo also trained this 10 years also.......and piccolo manages to surpass ssj2 gohan some how....
Dbs is not as great as dbz...but still it is dragon ball....their might be some reason showing 17 so strong...and i didnt find him so strong to be compete with ssgss..they were holding back..
He did the one punch man routine. 10km run, 100 situps, and 100 pushups :D
He says his prayers and takes his vitamins, brother, brother!
josh bentley83 He did 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups, 100 squats and ran 10km every day
That and perhaps with several droid upgrades.
Dennis Alfonso he had those daily andoird upgrades
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA 😂😂😂😂
Kifflom.
Two Words: Infinite Stamina
I bet his wife loves that fact
Two better words, infinite energy source, ok that's three. Self repair/healing/upgrade
I hate family channels THANK YOU! People always seem to forget about that...
Infinite reps - with no rest in between them - should get him strong, but SSB tier after the Goku Black Arc is still hilarious.
Yeah think about it if he could actually train in the HBTC who knows how powerful he could get, his body wouldn't require any kind of rest even the Saiyans needed to pace themselves.
He's a genius fighting machine. His strategic planning and flawless executions put him on a High pedestal
trillmatic waves I agree
Give 17 time to prepare and he can keep up with anybody
17 is Batman confirmed
Its almost as if he is "Perfect"
trillmatic waves he is not even close to being a genius. Figuring out the enemy's weak point is just common sense. Plus, all 17's plans failed miserably.
17 just grew up. He matured and his human anatomy and biological enhancement fully integrated into his being. This perfect fusion of human and bio-cybernetics resulted in a massive power up that was only made stronger by the training he was doing to be able to protect his family from powerful threats to Earth.
Since they can't sense him his training went unnoticed. I just came up with this. There's nothing in series that supports it.
Man so this entire time 17 could've handled Majin (Fat) Buu lol
Robert Loyale Yeah, then he gets distracted by a water buffalo crossing the street and then gets absorbed by buu, creating B17.
Nah he died on earth with everyone else he wasn't strong enough.
He would've been helpful.
he just hadn o clue what was going down.. Until the human destruction wave thingy.
Which he would've survived and likely would've been looking for the cause .
but can't sense stuff. doesn't know kami's lookout.
probably ran around thoroughly pissed until the world blew up.
OR. far more likely.
because Buu was detecting Life, and androids give no energyA
Buu didn't blast anywhere near 17--who was in the middle of no where with animals and such.
So he probably never had any clue and just.. blew up with the earth and then didn't know until brought back and heard the Vegeta call for help
@@zwordsman then how about his family? Surely human extinction technique killed them. He would know
The simplest, most realistic answer is Toriyama didn't think about DBS back then. Because no way in hell Supreme Kais didn't ask for Whis' help to wake Beerus, or teleport to other universes, or even to Zeno. Supreme Kais can teleport anywhere in DBS
Yeah he just train hard unlike the other z fighters because they thought they was peace after cell and majin buu defeat so he 17 didn’t use that as an excuse just kept training stronger pretty much can hang with SSJ3 Goku as in the manga and as you can see SSJ Blue Goku doesn’t mean he’s stronger just as strong enough to hang with because he wanted to get stronger and not weaker or lazy prob figure that out after he got whooped by cell like I ain’t letting that happening again lmao
This Android 17 could beat up Super Android 17.
DJTriumph38 curbstomp*
GT fanboy detected
Zelleon Gexcior pls explain how super 17 is universal and wouldn’t get destroyed by anyone in dbs
Zelleon Gexcior trust me super 17 isn’t on the same level as super 17. I mean I guess he could have the potential to be but 17 is a very smart fighter and would likely just go hand to hand combat and win.
The man does have a point, if you are to assume DBS 17 is this strong because he's been training all this time it's only logical he'd be even stronger in GT since it takes place after the events of super.
Infinite Stamina, Infinite Ki, ten years of training, strong abilities and Genius level IQ are what make him strong.
Thomad 90 obviously went to college during the time skip as well. I mean technically speaking if he never runs out of energy he shouldn't need to sleep so he can work 24 hours a day every day probably.
Normal training isn't supposed to give you god level powers, maybe he trained with whis or something.
17 didn't force Goku to go ssb, Goku did that with everyone while holding back as well
No, he literally said he was forced to use blue and didn't intend to lmfao. He didn't say that shit with anyone else lmfao. And then in the TOP we saw 17 against greater than god of destruction jiren and characters like toppo so yeah. He's blatantly above god level not even close lmfao. Remember everything above initial red hair super saiyan god is considered god level and 17 is far far beyond that. Goku specifically said he was forced to use Post frieza post room of Spirit and time post universe 6 tournament blue lmfao. And then even stated that 17 was still holding back as well lmfao. So yeah this is not even arguable
You're just in denial, 17 was the first to harm Jiren, the most useful against Anilaza, the one that protected Goku and Vegeta from Jiren's blast, the one that engaged at Jiren while both SSB Kaioken Goku and Evolution Vegeta were being pushed back, the same one that could hold Toppo and even dodge GoD Toppo, and a long, loooooong, etc.
17 is a beast, he's bare minimum Blue level, much higher as the Tournament progressed.
17 is unironically casually low multiversal lmfao scaling to Jiren and Goku who can shake and affect infinite space all at once, which is 4D no matter how you look at it. I simply don't understand people saying it's not 4D. You can't affect infinite 3D space with finite 3D abilities lmfao
@@ExtraVictory Not necessarily, having infinite power would allow you to affect an endless 3D structure, and yet that can still be zero to a 4D being.
Just like how you can stack infinite squares one on top of the other and still end up with 0 height.
@@Dexuz that isn't the case, because we know in the Dragonball verse ki directly scales to AP DC and durability. Meaning enough ki to affect infinite 3D space isn't relevant to infinite boxes with a height of zero. Every unit of ki DOES have tangible effect. Meaning you're stacking infinite boxes with a height of nonzero. Meaning you will end up with infinite 3D power
It should've been why is android 17 such a fucking babe in dragon ball super
Sleepless Kyle true
eh, he probably got stuck inside the hyperbolic time chamber and trained for 100 years
Yea them vegeta let him out
@Yander Kori no one Will read it
10+ years of Training, Infinite Stamina & most of all COMMON SENSE
17 just entered a cheat code along the lines of up up down down left right left right B A
a better question is how did freiza go from below blue to almost above it just by mental training
Frieza was way stronger than blue goku in RoF the form just had stamina issues and you answered your own question mental training for years
You clearly didn't watch the arc for most of the fight frieza completely bodies goku then goku proceeds to notice how quickly freiza's burning through his power and then only after freiza's burnt trough most of his power goku gets the win
remember that mental training was only in RoF. in Super, i think that Frieza actually physically trains(hence why the guy that Ginyu changed with had Luke Cage skin)
The question is now he lives in like 6 months, Frieza will be unstopple.
C Vox His golden form was always above blue his body just wasn't use to it. The power was burning up more energy than the body could supply it. Vegeta stated that.
13 minutes to say he probably trained lol thanks though i was thinking about this as well
tttexastoast Humans have the need for attention. So anything that takes five seconds to say, they'll draw it out to half an hour if they can
If your base power level far surpasses freiza's third form and frieza can just train a bit to surpass ss god, why couldn't 17? 17 never gets tired, or at least never runs out of energy, so while an organic body like freiza's would inevitably produce lactic acids and force him to stop training, 17 could just go and go and go non stop. I think it makes sense is just explained poorly/ not at all
frieza is an alien you'd have to scale with yamcha or krillin for 17 also his base would be like 5 and since he couldn't be sensed by Z Fighters it's still sitting pretty close around 5 he still has his life
Death Mountaineers - that makes sense, very well thought out and explained
Lazy fucking writing that’s why
i mean, The androids being stronger than freiza in the first place was pretty lazy. And then in the tournament we see an entire universe who sepcialize in making organic/cybernetic hybrids but are just far worse at it than dr.gero.
dont get angry now that android 17 is broken, db is just jumping into the hole it dug itself back in z
Death Mountaineers gohan and vegeta...
I think in Dragon Ball there is mostly the reason:"Just because"
Yeah, the show is shit but still entertaining
You want the answer? Cause akira wanted someone other then goku, gohan, or future trunks to save the day. so he picked 17. he HATES vegeta. so 17 it was
Shudda picked yamcha
Toriyama is the most non consistent writer/creator ever.
He hates his work now that's why
Don't forget that this is kinda of a spin off show.
@@roxasthebandicoot4492 how
Larrissa White lets be honest it sucks👎😂
@Larrissa White just because it's dragonball doesn't make it automatically good
Android 17 had been sitting in a box for years before he fought cell.
He has unlimited energy and never gets tired. He could train for ten years straight if he wants to.
Exactly I was thinking when he fought cell that was his base form they never had to train because there was no one stronger than them
I really feel that android's should not be able to train, they should have like a power limit and they just need to upgrade their parts to become stronger or something. Bulma could help them with that.
The writers could have used some of the GT stories and said he fused with the other 17 to make super 17 who was giving SS4 goku problems.
17 was a fan favorite which explains his power scaling 🤷♂️ case closed
Not an big fan of 17 would of liked an updated back story gaining tht much power 13 years prior to the tournament tbh!!?
Gohan is definitely more popular than 17 in JP, but Gohan still got shit on in DB Super.
Same with Frieza, now he’s fighting side by side with goku
@@jonathancerda794 In reality frieza and 17 would be destroyed by some of the villians from the other umiverses. Only Goku and Vegeta would put up a fight cause they are pretty much Gods now.
17 always has the potential. He even became a villain in GT so.. 🤷♂️
Right! Him fusing with himself made him on the same level as SSJ4 Goku, so it isn't hard to believe that he could train to be as strong as SSB in 13 years.
@@rezboadog369 remember people got mad when GT 17 became as strong as SS4? Now he is blue level and DBS fans says its genius way of Toriyama
Um were not counting no-cannon stuff
DBS fans are dumb as shit. Android 17 trains on an island with no fighting experience or intense training for 10 years and becomes as strong as SSJ Blue. Two Android 17’s fuse and they become as strong as SSJ4.
@@dafreshprincestolemehbitch6340 Imagine assuming things you have never seen. Please be quiet.
The universe survival arc is pure Android 17 fanfiction. The man did more damage to Jiren than freaking Vegeta. And while Goku was using God Ki for the first time to fight Beerus, Android 17 would technically be stronger than that already. Think about that. Goku and Vegeta were basically catching up to him until the Goku Black Arc LOL
KaizerFaith yooo this.. 17 could of stopped beerus
Jiren was past his limit... Vulnerable....
17 only took hits at a exhausted Jiren who was beaten by Goku and was being rocked by Goku and Freezia. Freezia even said he couldn't detect the unbeatable power in him anymore. Vegeta was punching peak Jiren. Remember by the end 17 has limitless stamina, everyone else is tired and has less energy, 17 would be as strong as at the start.
KaizerFaith So because Android 17 damaged a worn out Jiren using his barrier and tricks, he is more powerful than SSB Evolution Vegeta who single handedly eliminated Toppo? That makes no sense. Also, 17 couldn't even touch Toppo.
17 was the first one to damage jiren shirt..actually inflicting the first real damage to jiren..and he did touch toppo but gohan.....
The only issue is that your argument relies on the assumption that Goku powered up to blue out of necessity. Goku could have been using this form to represent stronger opponents that might be faced in the tournament. He also could have done it to hide his power level because god ki is undetectable by mortals. Now, I still think it was lazy writing, but it’s possible it’s not.
Geekdom: *finds a simple answer to a question*
Also Geekdom: let me make a 13 minute video about this
Money
*I don't really give a shit about power scaling, because 17 is the ultimate MVP and a badass.*
Amen 🙏 people complain a lot about powerscaling, the numbers just causes problems
Indeed, at this point powerscaling is pointless.
Frieza got stronger just by training his mind. C'mon now
Freeza was only able to reach mastered SSB by mastering his golden form. He was no way as near as SSB evolution.
Exactly! People are ok withFreeza getting stronger by meditating from Resurrection of F until the Tournament of power ark, but are for some reason not ok with 17 getting stronger after some sort of training for 10 years.
@Farts are Funny naah
Frieza got stronger coz he trained with his subordinate prior going to earth after he got resurrected.
@@rahulsar2030 But he could be, if he goes Golden Full Power 100% or 5th form.
I've read a lot of the comments others have put forth and I agree with a lot of them. 17 being so strong can be explained by him simply training 24/7, having greater base potential then Freiza (he started out stronger then even Cyborg Frieza as we saw him) and then going on to train for 14 years straight and just being fully capable of wearing opponents down in a fight while always being in 100% form.
I think the main reason we're all so shocked with his progress is that we've been watching 18 all this time and seen her train and just expected him to be around the same level purely because they're twins. That expectation essentially crippled how we see the both of them. We'd seen them at similar strength in the Cell Saga, and we'd seen her train with Krillin every now and again and just assumed 17 would be around the same level as her. But whereas 18's done nothing but laze around and relax, 17's always been pushing himself, refining his abilities and done what Jiren basically did. Jiren's not human so thats a terrible comparison but I'm just trying to explain that Saiyans aren't the only mortals capable of reaching such levels of power. 17 has every right to be Tournament of Power level as any of the other universe combatants. And without basic human limits, theres no telling just how strong we could get, right? 17 and 18 dont really have those same limits as regular humans - they have a new limit thats beyond what Krillin, Tien and Yamcha can achieve. So yes, it was explained and portrayed in Super in a very lazy way, but it makes sense with all things considered.
He certainly has more right to be as strong as he is than Kale and Caulifa...
The problem is that the super saiyan forms are multiplicative boosts. 17 could train harder theoretically but he has nobody to fight to push his limits, he doesn't get zenkai boosts because he isn't a saiyan, and he has no transformation. When Goku gains SSG he becomes multiple times stronger than SS3, when he goes SSB hes multiple times stronger than SSG. For 17 to match that, he wouldn't just need to be training more often than Goku, his training would also have to be insane orders of magnitude more efficient - which we know cannot have been the case because 17 didn't fight perfect cell, didnt fight in the other world tournament against the strongest ghosts in the universe, didnt fight buu, and doesn't spar with vegeta. For 17 to match SSB goku after Goku fought Hit - it means he was far beyond SS3 goku before it we even saw Goku go SS3 the first time. It means he could have literally clapped any form of Buu at any point during that whole arc (and 18 should have called him for help), and also it means he could have clapped the first Golden freiza.
The real explanation is that Dr. Gero decided to make some money by installing a KiCoin miner on the androids. The vast majority of their resources were taken up by mining, so they were massively suppressed all the time. Gero was going to turn this off before sending them into combat but he died first. Years later, one of 17's cooling fans started rattling, and when he went to Geek Squad for service, they shut down the mining software and he was able to operate at full power. The sad thing was that all the KiCoins were still being mined to Dr. Gero's wallet even after his death, and nobody was ever able to retrieve them.
You sir have earned a cookie
My way of understanding it is that after his humiliating defeat at the hands of Cell, 17 probably didn't want that to ever happen again.
So, given that he has infinite stamina, and therefore can't train without resting, he proceeded to train far beyond the limits of a regular living organism. In between times, he was protecting the island and met his wife and had the family.
13/14 years of that sort of training without much rest would allow his power to skyrocket.
Should he be as strong as SSJ God? Absolutely not. But stronger than Buu isn't really that much of a stretch.
Well...he's not a "robot" like 16, 19 and 20....his Android enhancements (and 18's) were made on a cellular level so that they COULD get stronger if they trained, with a crazy EXP multiplier thanks to a madman's genius. Infinite Ki, never gets tired...he could literally train in the hyperbolic time chamber for a whole year (1 day) STRAIGHT...never stopping to eat, drink, recover or sleep....not even the Sayians can do that...the Androids are OP...and honestly i kinda like that, and i love their lore...humans def got left behind in the DBZ story when it comes to power levels...even Nameks cant keep up anymore. So i like how through good ol fashioned human ingenuity...we were able (and HAD to) create (in a Frankenstein kinda way) these beings that CAN keep up and even surpass the Z fighters...Welcome to Earth >:( ...the Sayians are badass...Frieza's race is OP on their own, Namek's are terribly strong...Buu's race is like...WHAT!?........humans tho? not so much...so it was VERY HUMAN of "us" to create these "Terminators" to take out these OP race.... but of course in the Trunks timeline we end up destroying ourselves along with them....VEERRRYY human of us....now in Super we get to see both Androids fighting on our side as good guys (Terminator 2)..... not to mention 17 and 18's ridiculous in-sync fighting style...NO ONE beats their teamwork...not even Goku and Vegeta. I freaking LOVE the Androids.
He does need to drink tho. See @ 3:18
True
They need to hydrate ...
He just software updated himself
Christopher Lee yeah with 18 because she too is ridiculously strong in the fights in DB super
Christopher Lee best comment sir
His software is now android 7.1 nougat
Your fighting database has been updated.
Underrated comment
I have one extra note to add to this.
17 has infinite energy (or stamina or endurance or whatever it really is) which is basically his gimmick. Also why towards the end of the tournament, Goku and others used 17 as a sort of turret multiple times, because his blasts didn't cost anything.
So take 13 years of training, all of the knowledge he has that Gero collected of Goku, and the fact that he can fight basically forever, it means he could train as long as he wants indefinitely without needing to stop and rest.
17 isn't that strong he just doesn't lose stamina while everyone else does causing him to seem stronger when reality is his opponents got weaker.
Stupid headcanon lol stfu
Kanade Lapis It's not head canon, it was stated in the anime and the manga that Androids have infinite supply of energy, and since they're androids, they have endless stamina.
yup just going to ignore the aniraza punch, toppo fight, AND BEING THE FIRST TO HURT JIREN.
BlakeVsMainStream so what infinite energy means you can fight with god teir characters who are leagues ahead of you? Infinite doesn't matter when a opponent can one shot you this show is about strength not techniques and tricks like Goku had no chance to beat beerus in BOG unless he unlock a new form to increase his strength
17 is an inconsistent fanfiction character who has next to no explanation about his power even if there is a explanation it will be bullshit has he is a an Android and an Android cannot be a fuckin god teir level character cause he has no power ups no zenkai boost nothing to increase his strength just infinite stamina
zeus117 Jackson Huge strawman. I never said that 17 was stronger than anyone. I was simply telling you that Android 17 has an endless supply of energy, so while everyone is getting weaker and drained, 17 is staying at the same power level. If you're going to argue with me, at least argue with what I said. I was telling you that his endless supply isn't headcanon.
He is my fav character in the tournament of power
@Merciless Freak no buddy he’s overhated goku is overrated
@Merciless Freak again he’s an infinite android model they’re one of a kind or in this case 2 of a kind they wouldn’t just stay at the same power level for years
@Merciless Freak no infinite stamina does not equal Infinite power but it does give him potential cyborgs are different than sayians they don’t need to eat nor sleep so they probably don’t even need to train to much either
@Merciless Freak excuses what.. you can’t expect a super human to stay at the same level forever
@Merciless Freak that’s writing for ya 😂☠️
The reason he became so strong was his desire to get his boat.
according to google
"Updating your Android.
Make sure your device is connected to Wi-Fi.
Open Settings.
Select About Phone.
Tap Check for Updates. If an update is available, an Update button will appear. Tap it.
Install. Depending on the OS, you'll see Install Now, Reboot and install, or Install System Software. Tap it.:
chris gonzalez I down voted because that’s a cliche/bad/hilarious meme
Oh also I’m a racist ;)
@@DAG417 I down voted your comment because of no reason
@@paigl256 lol seriously feels bad
If I'm correct he's stated that as a park ranger all he do is fight off armies of animal poachers. There's his training.
Robert Moore that’s what I was thinking, and remember when they all showed up to attack the island when Goku was with him?
Also he has infinite energy so he can continue fighting forever
NyankoDan This falls flat for me since he didn’t help fight Buu
Apparently, 17 trained with a bunch of Cell, Jr's. during this time.
Heh lol, bring on platinum rainbow perfect cell, he's has :
1. Saiyan cells
2. Freeza cells
3. Piccolo cells
4. 17 & 18 "cells"
Imagine the potential, with just a week of training he'd be above the grand priest!
dragon ball Fights- He would be the strongest being of all times. Sorry, you can't defy simple logic.
nah his potential will balance out with his yamcha cells
napoleonic sp007rz he will transform into Duracell
napoleonic sp007rz Yeah right. Hahaha
You have a point, cell has saiyan cells and Frieza cells and if them 2 can get stronger (golden frieza and SSBlue) i dont see why Cell cant surpass them both.
one time in the series, 17 said to 18 that androids never get tired, so i think one of the reason why he's strong and able to compete with the saiyan is not really brute strength but endurance.
17 was able to keep up alongside SSBKx20 Goku(post-zenkais) and SSBE Vegeta(post-zenkais) when they rush towards Jiren on multiple occasions and was forcing Jiren to block and dodge meaning he was comparable to that Goku and Vegeta. He even took a kick from Jiren MEANT for SSBE Vegeta. So he’s atleast SSB Kaiokenx20/SSBE tier. Endurance is irrelevant to his feat of power.
People have to remember that 17 has the advantage of infinite power. He never runs out of energy. Within those 10 years, I think he probably figured out how to fully maximize his potential and power.
The thing that I learned about 17 from the Tournament of Power is how incredibly intelligent he is in battles. He picks up things much faster than other fighters and most often he was the first to find weaknesses in his opponents. He definitely got much more powerful but when he fought Toppo & Jiren, he was fighting smart and strategically instead of going at them head on.
As an artificial human that has infinite energy and was stronger than SSJ in his base level, 17 has massive potential. So its not as shocking to see just how powerful 17 has become after over a decade.
imagine if when beerus was looking for the ssg he found 17
The secret to 17s power:
Pushups, situps and plenty of juice
awesomefacepalm So cool but so dumb... but SO COOL! Lol
Wait,Where Will He Get The Juice!?
Crystal Miramontes ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Okay?
Crystal Miramontes make it
If you could train over a decade without getting tired, you’d get pretty freaking buff too. Just saiyan.
Enough to trade blows with a SSB?
Nope, it's just bad writing.
if you want to get stronger you need to challenge your self and push harder every day. so i dont see how android 17 could push him self to SSB level by kicking weak human asses. even with his unlimited stamina.
Data: 4 seconds to an Android is an eternity.
Tim if i could lift 0.2 kg weights for eternity. It wount not make me worlds strongest man.
No, but your opponent would have passed out from exhaustion getting pummeled with small blasts every second by someone that could create barriers non stop. Persistent consistency of power and stamina is hard to beat if you aren't allowed to destroy it.
17 was what Gohan was suppose to be
Easy really. Gohan was completely useless in the start of super standing no chance against Beerus. Gets shit on by Freeza. Doesn't participate in the university 6 vs 7 tournament. But at that point Gohan says I'm going to start training again and his character begins to develop from the scholar to a fighter again. Gohan was absent in the trunks/goku black arc. Finally the T.O.P comes around and we know that Gohan has been training with tough opponents like piccolo, Goku, and Krillin growing his power significantly. and then 17 gets this asspull power by training with humans who stand no chance against someone like Raditz. Like c'mon I get artificial humans can grow in power but the boost was WAY over the top! Android 17 at BLUE level Goku?! Like c'mon man. Freeza's power was an asspull as well! Gohan trained so hard for so little for this series and to keep it 100 Gohan should've done what 17 did
No hate to you btw I'm not trying to engage in a war or seem to hate you. I'd just like to debate and see your point of view man
Ace Robinson "and then 17 gets this asspull power by training with humans who stand no chance against someone like Raditz."
It was never stated that was the reason why stop spreading misinformation...
Ace Robinson All Gohan did was train with Piccolo for 5 hours, stop being a hypocrite by saying that his powerup makes more sense than 17’s.
DatMysticNingen no he was training since Resurrection of F lol.
You forget that Goku was just feeling him out. He went super Saiyan blue to see if 17 could be on par with it just in case they might run into a power just like it in the tournament, altho 17 was holding back as well, it would not have ended in his favor. Don't get me wrong 17 is wicked Strong but when it boils down to it, Kakarot wins that bout.
As for what could have happened, he has been training and the z fighters couldn't feel his energy since they can't sense androids. Right under their noses. Which is pretty cool of Toriyama
17 matching Super Saiyan Blue is still not as ridiculous as Roshi being able to take out multiple Frieza soldiers.
stop sleepin on roshi
Rekway Frieza soldiers? Seriously?
O.G. John Doe He's right you know... Frieza's soldiers have a power level of 2.000 and Roshi's power level was around 400. And if buff Roshi isn't a x5 multiplier he would have died and even if it was he would have wasted all of his power on 1 Frieza's soldier. He ended up taking like 100 down. (Picollo says the amount I just forgot) And an example is that Cell and Goku had roughly the same power level and that fight could have killed them. Goku and Jiren had roughly the same power level and that fight could have killed them. So I'm all honesty Roshi taking hundreds of Frieza's soldiers is complete bullshit because we never saw him train (I know Goku mentions that he trained a bit but that was after the Goku black arc)
Zion Falconi remember That is well established that Frieza's henchmen are nothing but a shadow of his former Army, they HAD power level of 2k back in Namek in their prime, now they're just lackeys, in more impressed he kept up with a version of Frieza in the middle of the tournament.
Just means that Roshi could of handled Raditz when he came to earth. Why didn't he? Because if you were a horny old man would you leave a young Bulma's side? lol
To give his “coming back” purpose 😉
SuperMechaFrieza He has infinite stamina and more potential than Goku Vegeta and Frieza
@@MrThwippy I don't think anyone in dragon ball said that android's have potential.
17 was created stronger than Frieza. If Freiza can go god-like in 4 months, Android 17 should also be able to power up as well. Not to mention, having infinite energy comes in handy for training. Imagine if we had infinite energy, how much stronger we would get in a few years.
Russian Bot that's faulty logic
don't say something is faulty logic without saying why. that's not productive at all.
Minetic In reality with Frieza " Gains " if he trained the same amount of years Goku did his ENTIRE life Frieza would logically be Angel level, This dude train 4 months just to be above Goku at max power, its took Goku till what? His late 40's to achieve what Frieza did in 4 months.
He have no potential he’s weak asf
Just because someone was initially stronger than someone else doesn't mean they'll have better potential/scaling as well. If that were the case, Goku would be the weakest person in all of Dragon Ball.
Because their Robotic features are so advanced that cell would be jealous
This arc was more about clashes of ideals expressed through battles rather than power scaling anyway.
People just like to miss the actual narrative and complain about numbers.
777Roxen Thank you, no one can stop talking trash
Super definitely has its problems, and while the power scaling isn't great, it's got nothing to do with the narrative for the Universe Survival Arc.
When it comes to the narrative the arc was trying to follow I think it did so well.
The arc explored clashes of ideals between the values of love, pride, and in the end they explored trust. People are just too busy wondering why "X" character is so strong even though it's irrelevant.
that makes zero sense about a fighting anime. So if the narrative is more important than actual logic then anyone can just beat anyone in any show whenever they want as long as they are in the right and more important to the shows story?
We're talking about a series that started off purely as a comedy. Dragon Ball has never been full of logic.
People want to complain about 17 getting so strong while training off screen for roughly 14 years?
Well, hey. Goku achieved SSJ2 and SSJ3 off screen in seven years. He got SSJB off screen as well. I guess Super Saiyan God wasn't much of a big deal if Goku surpassed it in a mere year.
It's simple. The characters will always be as strong as they need to be in order to fit the narrative. That's how Dragon Ball has always been.
No one wants to complain about these things because they let their nostalgia blind them.
I've been watching dragon ball for a while now and never minded the numbers. It's not necessary and if anything, just causes problems. Its a good point as well about the clash of ideals over powerscaling. It was the whole point of the universe survival arc. Another thing to point out is that the TOP shouldn't be proof of a characters absolute power since they need to hold back enough to not kill anybody. People just complain about it a lot and forget about the theme of the arc which is the Clash of Ideals
This is my theory for Androids..
This video brings me to the original question that how did even Androids 17&18 surpass Super Saiyan in first place..despite in the fight of Android 19 &20 Gero stated that they never recorded Namek fights...My theory for this would be...Main Z characters use ki powers as in life-force powers...And Beerus & Whis use Divine ki..God life force...but Androids power is always a mystery and their energy levels cannot be detected...So When Goku, Vegeta and Trunks went Super Saiyan on Earth...Androids 17 and 18 are also able to channel the same energy spectrum which Goku,Vegeta and Trunks opened for them...I believe Gero designed them in such a way that no matter how strong opponent they face they tap into their opponent's spectrum and defeat them...And that's how 17 was able to match Goku's SS Blue
But Cell is an advanced version of them..So they couldn't beat him...
hell yeah, i really like this idea
@@Michael-vd4fc glad you like...this was far fetched even for me...
Yea, i like this.
This would also make sense because the androids in future Trunks' timeline were weaker than in the main timeline for some mysterious reason. It could be because the fighters in Trunks' timelines didn't know about the androids and didn't train for their arrival, so they wouldn't be as strong
So if Cell returns he could possibly be stronger than current 17? Crazy
Android 17 has unlimited energy doesn't that mean he can train constantly for 14 years with no rest or sleep?
. JustTT niggga has a wife, 3 kids, and a proper fucking job
Vegetables are good for you 😂😂😂😂😂😭😭😭
Have you seen DB logic on wife, kids and job though? 17 has to fight off some poachers as they appear which (even at his original level) he could do in seconds if he wanted to and his wife and kids are somewhere away from the island he doesn't dare to leave alone for a day. Even Goku has kids and a job, no-one minds his absence (even when he's alive.) Vegeta has two kids. Gohan and Krillin have a wife, kids and job but still chose to continue training and get back to their original level in days, all the whole being great, very present, fathers.
Vegetables are good for you bruh if I could like this twice I would lmao
. JustTT exactly
toppo : how are you so strong
android 17 : i trained all day yesterday =)
Is it possible 17 and 18 simply get stronger with age?
no
yes ;)
Adam Spencer 18 would be just as strong as 17 if that was the case
pea-cats - she might be. We don't know her true strength she lost because she saved 17...not because she was weak
#1) #18 is officially weaker than #17.
#2) Getting stronger with simply age is just ridiculous.
To me it makes sense, he was flat out stronger than Goku and Frieza by just being an android so him training for 10+ years should put him at top tier just off LOGIC. This is DRAGON BALL. For the last few decades it's been pretty fucking simple. You train you get stronger. 17 had a whole 13-14 years and people think he'd be below Cell still? 13-14 years is literally from 4745-5110 days which is a fucking eternity for us let alone somebody above SSJ Namek Goku. Are you people kidding me?
Kid Cree Make sense? Sure, it make sense that 17 is now stronger. He may be comparable to Goku and Vegeta by also training for 14 years. BUT the latter has access to senzu beans, gravity chamber, hyperbolic time chamber, equally powerful sparring partners, mentors like the Kais and FUCKING WHIS, transformation multipliers including GOD FUCKING KI, and lastly their battles with monsters like Cell, Buu, Beerus and Black. 17 has poachers, animals his ranger job and A FUCKING FAMILY that prevents him from training non-stop. Make sense, huh?
17 is not blue level. Simple. And 17 never said all he did all day is fight poachers and theoretically he could train for nonstop for days on end. They should have elaborated on what he did but does it really matter? He's not blue level, more like Gohan level or slightly above it, and he has infinite stamina and good fighting tactics which is why he was picked. If you're gonna bitch about this then bitch about ALL of DB'S ASSPULLS. DB has never been consistent, people just look at Z with rose tinted glasses.
Kid Cree u seem very into this topic. I am proud of you!
Kid Cree Please, you think I never did that shit? I was too young to understand and complain back in DB/DBZ days but do remember the fuss about Goten and Trunks back in the day, everyone complained about GT, I complained about Freeza getting bs powerups after a few months, I hated that they didn't choose to just give Hit "god ki" to give some sense how he was able to beat Vegeta with ease, how base Black was able to go toe-to-toe with SSj2 Goku, Mirai Trunks' FUCKING SSJRAGE like being angry was a new thing for ssj transformations, was mad about the whole Kale/Caulifla/Cabba "different evolution" crap, etc... BUT DO REMEMBER THAT THIS VIDEO IS TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT 17. THAT'S WHY YOU DON'T SEE ME "BITCHING" ABOUT THE OTHERS. IF YOU SEE A KALE/CAULIFLA VIDEO, THERE ARE ALSO RETARDS THERE THAT TELLS ME WHY I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT 17. I say: "BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THE FUCKING TOPIC OF THIS VIDEO!"
PS, I don't wanna "bitch" about it anymore but your comment really did it for me. "Make, sense" my ass! You guys are the reason why DB keeps getting worse. Now that I explained my position, now you're telling me why does it matter? Continuation and plotholes. I know you're gonna resort back to DB and Z's own plotholes like every ass-kisser does but let me stop you there. 20+ years is a long enough time for Toriyama and Toei to improve their craft and fix these problems, right? But yet, even despite of failures like GT they decided: "FUCK IT! Forget planning ahead. Let's just do what we always do." What? You think they shouldn't learn from their past mistakes?
Super doesn't have to be perfect, but there's no reason NOT to put any effort to it. I'd rather have bad animation rather than bad story-telling. But we have both!
That's the thing though, it's never been consistent for a reason. It's just the way it is. Goku took somebody to the fucking moon with his powerpole IN THE MANGA. He's been OP since a kid and his power increases have always fluctuated between a little and a lot. The animation for Super is shit, the writing for Super can be called shit, but the power scaling is spot on for something DRAGON BALL related. Let's head to Z:
Raditz had 20 years, countless missions, and alien training technology and got shitted on by Piccolo's special beam cannon. Sure he beast moded them at first but he still should be leagues above them. Vegeta and Nappa were both below 20,000 WITH YEARS OF PREPARATION while Frieza boasted a 120,000,000 just because.
Piccolo shitted on the moon in an instant just like Roshi except the DB portion was more about jokes and they were purposely OP.
Most if not all of Gohan's power boosts before Cell
Piccolo surpassing Saiyan Saga Vegeta with less time than Goku while training by himself and not using Kaio Ken.
Nail being BODIED by First Form Frieza but giving Piccolo a boost big enough match Second Form Frieza.
5 human made/enhanced androids surpassing Frieza: 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.
Piccolo going to Kami, one of the weakest allies on the team, fusing and SHITTING ON THE REST OF THE CAST except 16 and Cell.
Future Gohan never improving and losing to 2 weaker androids then in Goku's timeline despite fighting them for YEARS, but Trunks surpassed Frieza and King Cold by a mile after 3 years by FIGHTING THE ANDROIDS. Both fusion techniques: SSJ3 Vegito is over 160,000x stronger than Base Goku, and 2 kids that would get shit on by SSJ2 Gohan fused and surpassed SSJ3 Goku.
Goten and Trunks transforming with no real training despite Future Trunks not transforming until 14 with training.
Ultimate Gohan in general. He's above SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Gotenks. That's his max power, he had a max power potential of above his dad because of his plot hax. As long as he trains more than and harder then his dad then he'll have more potential because why not? Didn't Trunks, a hybrid, leave at Grade 3 in comparison to his dad? He was pretty much equal to him and Grade 3 was too slow if he would have used it in a fight against Vegeta. Trunks stays around Goku and Vegeta but Gohan can go FAR BEYOND all 3.
SSJG being above SSJ3 Vegito despite it being used by some ancient saiyan. That saiyan needed a power WELL OVER 160,000x his base for some fucking reason. Had Goku gotten SSG in the Saiyan Saga he would have SHIT on Frieza.
The least dumb of all the shit DB has done is 17's case. Do you know what a scientist from the DB era must have had to do to make 16, 17, and 18 such monsters? Maybe 17 needs MUCH LESS TRAINING then Goku and the rest. Who knows? Should they explain? Yes. Is it that bad? NOT REALLY. Not as bad as Vegeta and Nappa, 2 SAIYANS, BEING VASTYLY INFERIOR TO ZARBON AND DEDORIA FOR 20 YEARS. Not as bad as FUTURE GOHAN TAKING CONSISTENT Ls FOR YEARS. THIS IS DRAGON BALL, THIS IS HOW IT GOES, IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR "LOGIC" YOU NEED TO LEAVE. Something as simple as "Well their race's fusion is OP" is enough to pass here. This series specializes in "Just Because".
Real pot hole here is, future 17 wasn't this strong and he fought Gohan for the same amount of years (future Gohan's death happens the same year the top would have in that time line )
Future Gohan wasn't as strong as present Gohan eventhough he trained harder so what's your point ? future 17 NEVER trained present one did.
Kanade Lapis current one trained fighting poachers, we've seen that the max power level of most humans is around 5 (or for our most extreme cases being the z fighters somewhere in the 10,000s up to early millions) future 17 for the same amount of time fought a super Saiyan Gohan regularly which would be training in itself even if it was a death match so was the ToP and people were getting stronger there too.
PokeHokage
Training is not the same thing as fighting fodders though. We know 17 fought poachers but we don't know if that's all he did, I doubt he even considers it training.
That's because the Androids (originally) couldn't get stronger aside from Cell. They were built to be stronger than SSJ and that was pretty much it. None of this bullshit even existed back then, it's just sheer laziness. By Super's DERP-DEE-DERP "training" shortcut standards, 17 would've been a god in Trunks' future and Frieza would've been golden before he came to earth and was surprised by Trunks.
Denji2006
The androids have never been stated nor implied to not be able to get stronger, stop spouting headcanon as facts.
I don't see why it's hard to swallow. Like the Frieda Race, The Androids have seemingly unlimited potential. They are basically posthumous.
I know they don't have Frieza DNA, like cell, I merely mean they are artificially evolved to have similar unlimited potential. In the Android saga, they had never even trained, just like Frieda. Then Frieza went gold after a month.
I agree. I try to tell people to keep in mind, Androids 16, 17, and 18 were already originally built far stronger than regular Super Saiyans. Everyone had to train just to catch up to them. The same goes for Frieza, Cell, and Majin Buu. These people did not train a day in their lives, they were all born or built stronger than Super Saiyans and Goku, Vegeta, and the rest had to train or fuse just to catch up to them. It is therefore not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that if the Androids, Cell, Frieza, or Majin Buu actually did train, they would easily catch up to or surpass Goku, Vegeta and the others. In fact, if Cell or Majin Buu both trained hard I believe they could both surpass Beerus. I believe Black Frieza already has.
You know what’s stronger?
Plot convince
Exactly.