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Easy DIY Rotary Phase Converter Build (Off Grid Three Phase Hydroelectric Power)
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- Опубліковано 20 гру 2019
- In order to run the tools for my workshop i needed to upgrade the power system, i added a 8kw, 16kw peak inverter and visited my friend john and we put together this rotary phase converter. The converter takes my single phase power and turns it in to three phase power so that i can run and use three phase tools.
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My dad is an electrical engineer...his comment to this video is “genius” and well done!
When the planer was on full speed and Kris was pushing a piece of wood on it, all I can think about was that loose shirt in close proximity of a 8kW spinning death spindle. Stay safe!
Literally why people wear aprons in workshops
The sky's the limit with those new tools, you have a wood, you have a chainsaw mill, no wonder you are so happy, I'm glad you have done so well, you deserve it for all your hard work. Looking forward to future videos.
OMG! Everybody need's a John in there life. You tube video's only go so far. When you can stand there next to somebody who knows what they are doing it's a gift. Thanks John!
Hey Kris it blows my mind when I think about that little stream powering everything you have on your property. It's awesome and you should be very proud !!!!
You can start the planer on the static converter then turn the planer off and switch to the rotary converter while the planer is coasting and it should run. It won't have the amperage spike because the planer is already turning.
Good idea, i will give that a try :)
I was thinking the same thing, it's like a bump start on a car.
Goodluck
Dependant on your motor you could have a choice of starting methods. It looks like you have a basic starter on it ..... but for bigger machines (or less forgiving power supplies) there are Star Delta starters or even Rotor resistance starters! Both of these methods reduce the starting current, which seems to be the problem you are having, and then when the motor is rotating giving it full torque!
......or use a three phase frequency inverter
@@KrisHarbour look into star delta starters, they are used for similar conditions eg: high start up currents and low run currents. You could utilise one to switch from the static to rotary. It's basically a combination of contactors and a timer.
That planer thicknesses is a baby! When I was an apprentice the 20 HP Dankaert 15" one we had in the mill would still be turning after being switched off at lunch time. (After 30 minutes) Now that's the sort of flywheel you want! I would certainly go for a flywheel as it doesn't complicate your setup, it just harnesses the kinetic energy of the motor.
Brilliant Kris, well done. You've got every reason to be proud of yourself
Congrats Kris on this next big step of off grid sustainability.
Hi Kris, I just found your channel whilst looking for phase inverter examples and have stumbled into a goldmine.
This, what you are doing, is awesome! Finally, someone putting words into action and leading by example!
Much respect to you mate! :)
Did you ever think you would have gained so much knowledge when you started your off grid homestead ? Fantastic!
Great accomplishments you've made in the last couple years, from just a field
Some comments from an electrical engineer.
That 3p motor in the converter is nothing but a very expensive terminal box. You are getting your 400V (approx) from the static converter. The motor is wasting about 2/3HP capacity of the static converter (amp meter is indicating 2A at 240 V =480w =2/3HP). The motor is effectively a drain on the system that contributes nothing to the overall operation of the system.
If the motor is to remain in the system, you need to remove the key from the shaft, it is intended to be retained by whatever is fitted to the shaft, and running bare shaft plus key risks having the key thrown across the room. Best bet is to remove the key and cover the shaft with something smooth like firm fitting hose or conduit to reduce the chance of anything dropped near the shaft being flung by the keyway. Nothing that requires clamping or similar.
The motor starter on the unit incorporates a current overload unit to cut power in the event of a gross overload. This current overload supplies current to the grey 3P motor in the converter and the load in parallel. If the current overload is not set to handle the load current, it will trip and isolate the load and the grey motor, which appears to be what happened when you tried to start the combi machine with the unit as orginally assembled. Compare to when you started the combi from the static converter only, the converter was overloaded for a short period while the combi motor worked up to speed, no current overload in circuit to trip.
From the sound of the combi when running from the static converter, it needs more capacitance in the dummy phase, as the relative phasing is uneven causing the motor noise coming from the combi, in effect the motor is "hunting", momentarily accelerating/decelerating around the nominal 50Hz speed .
I did wonder what the 3 phase motor was doing in that setup?! Just piggy backed off the static converter and drawing power from it. And IDK but when Kris started up that planer thicknesser it didn't sound very happy did it.
@@MrPhillipgraham The idea is that you can add a flywheel, and it helps counteract inrush current with larger loads.
Kris Harbour I find myself often intrigued by the what you are often able to accomplish! Amazingly I've yet to hear you speak on having been professionally trained or University. You show how if there's a great desire, perseverance and with the proper tools people achieve almost anything.
Well done for including the "ug" moment when it didn't work, you could have just shown it running and none of us would known, but we wouldn't have learned either. Kudos.
He Kris. I have installed lots of single phase th to three phase variable speed/ frequency inverters (not the same as your DC to ac inverters) they were low power ones but as I understand you can get ones that will drive a 3hp motor. The great thing about them is they ramp up the frequency slowly so there isn't the massive start up current. I spoke to an engineer at ABB, and it was them who told me about the higher power inverter drives, I was going to install it on a farm that had a pretty crappy single phase supply powering a vacuum pump for a milking machine, when the single phase motor started up it would trip the lights out because of the volt drop. In industrial electrical installations pretty much all motors are on variable speed inverter drives because it saves electricity and the cables don't have to be as big to cope with the volt drop. Hope this helps.
Hi Kris , I decided to do this after watching your video, I used the clarke PC60 and a 5HP motor with DOL switch but even though the Clarke PC60 says its up to 5.5hp motors this is no quite true with phase converters my idle motor is 4KW 7.9A & it would start to turn then trip the breaker so I give it a little spin befor pressing the on button and I now have a lovely rotary phase converter HOWEVER it's not been plain sailing as I initially purchased the Clarke PC40 to do this & it would not power the 5HP idle motor even with a spin ,I then tryed it again with a pony motor & it would just trip the breaker so I took the PC40 back to MM and swapped it for the PC60 for a additional £70 i then put it all in a vented enclosure with acrylic front to stop and metal chips getting in & I'm very happy with it , it powers my hardinge lathe and a 3HP milling machine
Just wanted to thank you for the idea and post some information for others that I wish I had befor started this project
This is a great development. Good on you for getting that working. Will be interesting to see the flywheel modification.
Good job! Your ingenuity never ceases to amaze!
Very nice. Smart lad you are. We appreciate you sharing how you did this.
You are the coolest dude man. Really. Nothing intimidates you, but you also don't over complicate solutions. If you determine that 3-phase is going to be the most cost efficient going forward, you just go ahead and put in 3-phase (confident in the fact you can build a solution). You are an awesome engineer (regardless of whether you have an engineering degree, you are an engineer in every respect).
I absolutely love engineers, I even consider myself one on occasion 😂
My (3 year late) idea, would be to have a 2nd power button on the machine with 3 resistors (or hair dryer heaters) in-line with the power.
So it makes a soft start, then 5 seconds later - switch the main green button for full power.
The weekend has started on a high note again! Keep up the fantastic work. Inspiring how you can keep coming up with such interesting content.
Amazing Kris! Your stick-to-it-ness will get you there.
Very interesting! I have had similar ideas myself, and my plan is to use a flywheel as you suggest in order to increase the available peak current. In your case because you can't run the flywheel very fast (only at whatever speed the motor runs at), you will instead need a very heavy flywheel as the weight is where the energy is stored. When a surge comes in, the motor will try to stop, but the weight in the flywheel will force the motor to keep turning and continue delivering power. More weight will let you handle larger peaks. The trick is just coming up with a way of having something heavy enough connected directly to your motor shaft.
I'm also not quite clear on what the purpose of the motor is here if you aren't using a flywheel. The static converter would appear to do the job of producing three-phase power without the motor, so obviously I'm missing something!
Yeah I don't understand what the motor is for?
Super proud of you Kris...here almost from the beginning...watched it and you grow. Marvellous! 👏🥳💝💐🎅
Excellent video with many excellent comments provided as well! On to woodworking! Thanks Kris.
This is a phenomenal achievement, how many rivers streams and brooks are in the British Isles that could be used in exactly the same way, millions, free power. Give yourself a massive pat on the back, well done and have a merry Christmas.
It's not free power. The turbines, batteries, inverters etc are quite expensive to purchase. I estimate it would take 3 - 5 years before you got your money back on the setup costs and that assumes you make use of all the power generated and incur no other costs. It also assumes you are able to do all the work yourself and have the time available to do it. It is a fantastic achievement and Kris has done a great job but you can't really consider the power to be free.
The payback on my system at current Price per KWH is more like 20 years to be honest. that is a simplistic view of it though as there are other factors. like being in control of your own power, knowing it is carbon neutral once set up, the educational side of things and the fact that it would have cost many times what the system cost to get mains here. So there are other factors but you are correct it is far from free and the payback is a very long time.
@@KrisHarbour Yes I agree, hard to put a price on the education and satisfaction achieved. Looking forward to seeing those tools used in anger.
You should be proud of what you're accomplished. It is amazing for sure. Thanks for sharing.
You are very resourceful, and it's great to have such versatile friends. Love the videos.
I would have never guessed you could run that the way you are, I'd have been trying to figure out how to modify the planer with a gas engine like your sawmill has.
Very interesting video, as you suggested a flywheel would certainly help, also you can make a star to delta starting on the planer in order to decrease the peak current when you turno it on. Another option would be an inverter with a soft start
Nice job. I did expect that you would put a flywheel on to keep the motor spinning during the current spike of the startup. Very nice to see in any case.
You've every right to feel proud of what you have achieved on your patch of land, it's all inspiring awsomness! I have to fight my county council just to put up a shed cos it's "not within my curtilage" an all that red tape, box ticking stuff they expect.....think I need to move to Wales!
Are there less rules in Wales?
Such an inspiration mate, looking forward to when I'm in a position to do the same
I love to see a plan come together.
Bravo,a great work done, congratulations
you have every reason to be proud, good job 👍👍👍
Well done you deserve that smile form such a small stream, class
He really does! This looks like magic to me! Absolute class!
Hi Kris, you can buy manual star-delta switches to reduce the start up load of the planer. A lot cheaper than the automated contactor and timer ones.
Well done mate, a great achievement!
Hello Chris, good video. You will find that a soft starter on the spindle motor will reduce the startup current as suggested in other comments . These are relatively expensive items and are not very robust to surges on the supply. The tried and trusted method of starting with a star-delta starter circuit on the spindle motor with a delayed start of the feed motor could from my experience of starting heavy motors on a generator , solve your startup problems. It should be noted that 3phase off-grid inverters are commonplace in Germany and may be the best solution for your workshop. If you look up Damien Maguire on UA-cam he did a video on using an old industrial inverter to perform the single to 3phase converting. Best of luck.
I modified various equipment with three-phase motors to make them operate in single-phase at 230V, just add capacitors to simulate the third phase and change the jumpers in the star-delta motor, we have all the 400V star and 230V delta motors, for example the compressors for hobby use with standard three-phase asynchronous motor with single-phase plug, they have the capacitor as standard for the third phase and a triangle-connected motor to operate at home at 230V single-phase, I started a single-phase spindle moulder, in this case in addition to the capacitor bank for the third phase requires an addition for the ignition cue with a button to be pressed only for starting, it was a particular case logically you lose 20% of power and on large carpentry equipment it is a bit absurd as for a large planer or thickness, better an inverter with single-phase input and three-phase output, this converter solution is less efficient but robust and reliable than the inverter ter as for the rotating coupled ones that was used in the 50s / 60s in various ways also to raise the voltage or to convert the DC to AC or to vary the frequency, logically abandoned for inverter electronics,
it is old school that still, cheap and robust, honestly I did not think to see it still used.
Excellent assembly and wiring you can see the expert's hand!
About the wiring. He is using shielded cable and doesn't connect the shield to chassis. NOT to PE because that is NOT allowed. It isn't a PE wire but a shield. Now there is quite a high voltage on the screen. He should have used other cable glands specially for shielded wire if it is a metal housing.
I love your playlists. 👍🏼 Thank you!
@@josvandiepen3425 The cable he used is called SY multiflex and correct he did not use the correct metal glands for it, BUT they did connect the CPC's to the earth terminals in the equipment as far as I can tell so the machines are earthed. I've used a lot of that cable in agricultural buildings and workshops as it is very flexible , easy to strip and terminate plus it is protected from mice etc, however it is actually not recognised by the IEE Wiring regulations don't ask me why.
merry christmas. keep on. love the process.
You are unlimited. Respect love and gratitude 🙏 ❤
Well done, thats a great accomplishment. 💪🏻👊🏻
Merry Christmas Kris from New Zealand!!
Current surge is always a pain for off grid configurations.
è stato bello vedere la tua gioa alla fine del lavoro.. grandioso.
In the last video we saw a sneak peek of the work bench, So I am guessing that all of this is done! Videos are coming along nicely!
The workbench is done, as of a few days ago, video will be out soon :) often videos are released the day thex complete. but sometimes i get a bit behind
@@KrisHarbour I was wondering if you can do a video on the elevation of your current inlet for hydro along with the proposed new stream and other small streams. Maybe a map showing locations and height and how converging the larger stream to either its current inlet location or to a new area would work or not work. If a new area could combined the 2 streams even if you would have to trench in a large area. Would this increase or decrease you attempts to a larger hydro. If The new area was made would larger or smaller pipe have to be used or could you re use the existing pipe. Could the pipe be moved to say the middle and converge both streams to a totally new area?
Nice job.
awesome. what a sense of achievement
Awesome! Well Done!, Merry Christmas!, All the best in the new year!, CHEERS!
Fantastic!!👍
Excellent 👍🏻
Fantastic kris spindle moulder next lol. i use 2 transwave static converters i dont like messing about with 3 phase . no second chances
Congratulations!
On the pigs back 👍🏻have a good Christmas
Kris..... THIS IS BLOODY BRILLIANT!!! haha how awesome!! its really coming together mate, how wonderful to run that lovely industrial equipment from a stream! epic! sounds like a serious inverter too. What a fantastic Christmas present! how flipping cool is that! id definitely give the flywheel a go, maybe an old car one belt driven from the motor that way you wouldn't need it right on the end of the motor shaft? .......... Still can't get over how cool this is!
Not sure a belt driven flywheel would be any good, because the peaks come with such force the belt would probably just slip, lowering the amount of force you can transfer from the flywheel to the motor. I don't know how fast car flywheels are designed to spin, but attaching one to a motor like this means (without gearing) you're pretty much limited to 3000 RPM for 50 Hz power. This is pretty slow for flywheels (which usually store most of their energy by running at a very high RPM) so I suspect a car flywheel wouldn't have enough weight to provide much in the way of peak current delivery. In Kris' case I think he would need something very heavy so that even at the lower RPM it can still pack a lot of punch.
@@Berkeloid0 most cars will rev between 5 and 6k rpm many will do more, they are already balanced and designed to spin at speed they are also very much readily available and cheap secondhand.
I suppose the belt has got the potential to slip but It would depend on how much force is required. Knowing Kris and how well he works stuff out and designs things I would imagine that this setup wouldn't be far off working as is so just needs that extra little help. You could also do a multi-ribbed or even toothed belt for better inertia capabilities.
@@pjoutdoorservices775 If they're designed for 5-6 kRPM then it means in this situation they will only be storing half the power they could potentially store in a car. I have no idea how much this would equate to in terms of peak amps/watts that they could push back through the motor, but I suppose you could always fit more than one. Any idea how much a typical flywheel weighs? I am completely guessing but I imagine you'd want at least 100 kg (220 pounds) in the flywheel to be able to deal with these kinds of spikes, since the flywheel can't lose much speed even when it's returning power back through the motor/generator to power the shop equipment - as soon as it drops much below 3000 RPM the AC will drop below 50Hz and if it goes too far below you can run into problems. Admittedly it would probably work fine if all you're running is a motor like Kris is, but if you want to run other equipment (especially things with transformers in them) it can be problematic. Definitely worth investigating though if they are cheap and readily available!
That is very loud. Indeed. And awesome ^^ Thanks allot for your inspiring and also highly educational videos :)
Brilliant!
Impressive!
would you show a detailed video on the motor wiring on the idler motor so I could copy please?
11:49 maybe a sizeable flywheel with a friction centrifugal clutch? So that when you turn in the rotary converter, the flywheel will slip and then the clutch will engage avoiding a huge inrush current and then the mass of the flywheel should provide enough stored energy to help the planer start?
Brilliant
Until you fit the flywheel, perhaps best to remove the key from the motor shaft in case it gets thrown out when running the rotary convertor. The flywheel should certainly absorb the startup peak. The demand from the static convertor will only increase when the rotary convertor is included due to decreased overall efficiency resulting in even less running power of the planer so. Hope you come up with a good working solution.
To clarify a few points
1 a 3 phase motor only needs 2 phases to run! Incorrect loosing 1 phase it will indeed continue to run at much reduced power and shall rapidly overheat. It will not start without 3 phase or rather since there is not 360 deg rotating field.
If you apply 2 phase and give a spin it will continue to spin in whatever direction you gave it a spin.
2 Clarke PC 60 does indeed output psudeo 3 phase here is how it does
L1 comes direct from the mains
L2 loops of L1 goes through a bank of capacitors leading 90 deg phase shift
L3 loops of L1 goes an auto transformer (inductor) lagging 90 deg phase shift
Giving L2 +90 deg L1 0 deg L3 -90 deg
I can provide a link to PC schematic if required.
If you have L1, L2 , L3 connected to the motor on your skid then have connected your planer two this all you have done is paralleled the two motor.
For information in the USA 220 volts is 2 phase (120 deg separation)
Regarding running 2 motors of a VFD is not a good idea, but not for the reason you give. It is more do do with harmonic distortion
Formula for calculating induction motor speed is
f = frequency
P = number of pairs of poles eg 4 pole = 2 pairs of poles.
N = motor speed
N = f x 60/p our American cousin use f x 60 x 2 then on bottom line use number of poles, the answer is the same.
Eg 4 pole = 2 pairs of poles
f = 50 Uk mains frequency
N = 50 x 60/ 2
N = 1500 rpm for simplicity I am ignoring motor slip
Amazing! No limits now. I am looking forward to the progress on that workshop. Keep up the good work. Dont listen to the keyboard warriors hiding behind their Computer screens. Greetings, Gabriel
That looks like it will easily last a lifetime.
I think I'd look into building a diesel generator, and fuel it with used vegetable oil! Or possibly a gasoline generator, use wood chips to fill a still. And make methanol to fuel the generator.. modify the carburator to allow the engine to run on methanol. If a custom generator is built, and methanol is going to be the only fuel. Further modification can allow the use of a smaller engine possibly a 8hp taking the place of a 10-12 HP engine, start with raising the compression, about 40-50 psi and porting the head, smooth out the exhaust port, and slight enlarge the intake port leaving it a rough sand paper finish, (60-80'grit) use a long header and large free flow muffler. Even a car muffler can be used, a 2" inlet 30" long glass pack, and a long intake spacer and space the carb out about 3" possibly using a larger carburetor, from a motorcycle, and incorporate a electronic governor. The long intake runner should boost the intake charge , a slight supercharging effect the raised compression will raise the TQ a fair amount. TQ over time is HP. It should easily take the place of a 10 HP engine, and the methanol/wood alcohol is free, pyrolysis of biomass, distilling wood chips , sawdust, much clearer than oil just start with dry wood, it may require a second run in a still, at a temperature just below boiling of water, then use molecular sieves to remove any water. A small amount is ok, 5% or less, and run the carb dry and drain it when done running it for more than a couple days. And seal the fuel tank and supply, a modified 8-10hp engine should be capable of 7-9kw possibly 10kw,
Have you thought a bit building tiny dams enough to store water for a drought?? If not I would suggest that. I understand you have to think of your neighbors. And such. But it's an idea. Digging out a small pond for fish and hydro
because you've already gone this route, you should look into soft starters for the motors, it's going to reduce your peak current draw dramatically.
otm646 exactly
Very nice jointer/planer! My father looked at those years and years ago but never was able to buy one. Swedish make, don't remember the brand...
ok that was not what i expected i thoght it was going to be a single phase motor running a 3 phase motor as a generator nice to know they is a unit to do it all with out using 2 motors
yeah, i am very impressed with the static converter. clark stuff is usually a bit cheap but this thing is really good.
@@KrisHarbour i know when i was about 19 i worked in a wood factory with over head routers and they had a phase changer under them just looked like 2 moter with drive shafts linked never really understood what they did
Interesting solution. Please put a pulley or a flywheel to secure that key to the shaft of the generating motor.
0:55 that's a nice Jointer, as we call them in the States, it's nice an heavy, and it doubles as a torture tool and a Butcher block, in case you need to dress a carcass, that you'd got on a good hunt. lol
Kris goes into smug mode :) :)
You could use a soft start device or simply use a VFD
GO YOU, brilliant and once you have all this up n running yet another source of income, with commission pieces etc Sky is the limit Kris
I am an electrical moron is there anyway you could do a video in more detail explaining the wiring and function of the phase converter. Thank you
Hi, you try run three-phase sensible electronics on your rotary phase converter as sample 3phase tig welder
Star-delta starter for the 3 phase plane would reduce the starting current.
Congrats Kris on another great addition, you mentioned a massive flywheel to keep the current flowing when starting the planer, how's that work? Could you rig a flywheel to crank up with a bicycle transmission when there's not much power being generated and still spin up the planer? best, Eric
I've been watching the Walking Dead recently. If or when the zombie apocalypse happens here I want to live with Kris!
All civilization will be without power and Kris will carry on just fine!
first! nice hydro intructions chris. From the Netherlands
CHRIS I JUST LOVE WATCHING YOUR AMAZING VIDEOS I JUST WANT TO SAY I AM VERY SURE YOUR PARENTS ARE VERY PROUD OF WHAT A AMAZING YOUNG MAN YOU ARE NOT EVERY ONE CAN DO WHAT YOU ARE DOING GOD BLESS YOU AND MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU AND YOUR LADY FROM YOUR FAN FROM AMERICA
I think you could have got a soft starter for a 3p motor. Some of them will accept single phase input and still give out 3ph out. That will also reduce your starting load
Not for this i cant, those are digital, this machine has Two motors one to drive the blades one to drive the feed rollers those digital VFD wont drive two motors.
not sure if it would help but you could run single phase devices off 2 of the windings of the mechanicle side of your 3 phase unit for higher demends items i know in the factory i worked at we had 3 phase motor working off single phase the 3rd winding was join by a capicitor to the live winding i guess to offset the phase
This is a way to run three-phase loads off a single phase supply, using an appropriately sized capacitor to fake the second phase and leaving the third phase empty. It's rougher on the motor and not very efficient so although it works, it's not really ideal.
I like the flywheel idea much better myself.
star delta starter, that planer looks like it has a DOL start
yeah it does. currently looking in to getting one for it.
That is LOUD!
As already said, I was concerned about your hanging cuffs and that beasty planer. Anyway that planer could be modified so it runs on less? Merry Christmas if you don't post before. 👍
John seal I think
If I understood, the static converter already gives out 3 phase. Then the 3 phase motor would have only its inertia to add to the equation. Or is it actually a rotary converter as well? Anyway, to handle a 3 phase motor that has such a huge inertia load, you would need at least the same amount of inertia running already before you try to start the other big one.
What an idle 3 phase motor would otherwise add is some balancing of the 3 line voltages and some inertia in case of the main motor having too LITTLE inertia to handle its varying loads. In the old days, some Idle Synchronous Motors were used to smooth weak supply voltages against heavy load variations as well as do power factor compensation. They fell out of favor when power distribution lines became heftier and power factor correction was changed over to AC capacitors.
I myself dreamed of homesteading Alaska in 1970s.never got to do it.i enjoy your videos,good luck!and curious,do you have to follow zoning,? Or building rules?
VFD softstart would work? Not too expensive at those power ratings.
*Slow Clap* 👏👏👏
I would be interested to try starting the planer and then unplugging quickly plugging it into the three phase motor converter and quickly restarting starting the planer while it's still got its kinetic energy. It might just be enough to get it going
Someone else suggested that, i will give it a go
@@KrisHarbour and I think a weighted flywheel would also give the motor some efficiency gain in the start-up process with a heavier load. I believe power plants use flywheel Motors to keep energy stored in the form of kinetic energy for those quick little surges in power in areas that have Tendencies to have high demand for short periods of time
I must admit I first thought the PC60 was a electronic converter - a bit like a fixed VFD. Then I realised it must be a pseudo capacitive '3 phase converter' hence the rotary converter.
👍👍