"Old School" Basses (Ghiaurov, Kipnis, Chaliapin, Pinza, Mardones) v. Today (Furlanetto, Pape, etc.)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- PS, I probably could have used lots more examples of good basses (Bohnen, Talvela, etc.), but I really had to limit myself! You'll get the idea.
The examples I used of good singing are Ghiaurov, Kipnis, Chaliapin, Pinza and Mardones.
The bad examples are Furlanetto, Groissböck, Pape, Terfel and D'Arcangelo (who horribly ruins the Anna Bolena trio and uses an abbreviated version because he cannot sing it!).
The music used is from Don Carlo, die Walküre, Boris Godunov, Verdi's Requiem, Faust, die Zauberflöte, and Anna Bolena.
Mainly the problem with the modern singers is nasality (poor vowel formation, i.e. nasal vowels "aw" instead of "ahhh") and a lack of strength.
I tried not to just pick "funny" examples of how bad modern singing is. I tried to get each of the modern singers at their "best" but still show how they pale in comparison to the older technique! (I also levelled off the volume… as well as I know how to).
Thanks for watching :)
Before I get another comment about this - the audio used is LIVE. The recording that is used in most of the video as the "good example" is from a live recording of Don Carlo, 1968 at Teatro alla Scala.
ua-cam.com/video/8SuwdzrKtnQ/v-deo.html
The only ones that either aren't live or I'm not sure if they are, are the older recordings (Kipnis, Mardones, Chaliapin).
Ghiaurov is the cathedral of all bassos in the world, noble , musical , beauty, dramatic ,freedom, all the qualities , God bless him for all his legacy
Hell yeah, but Nesterenko, Vedernikov, Reizen are very good too may be better Russian Basses W
The young Ghiaurov singing the Verdi within his youthful limits but beautifully. We all heard how sensationally the voice and artistry, grew and matured .
Apologies and Excuse me “limits” was the wrong word perhaps potential is much better
When you compare it is quite noticeable. Old school singers have great diction, clarity of vowels, powerful voice! Modern singers are quite the opposite.
Great video - I love this sort of thing. I agree with most of your assessments - the older singers sound more powerful and steady, and with much better placed voices. They also acted with their voices to a greater extent. Well done.
sounds like an organ pipe in the throat and that gives that steady consistency of the sound. It does not jump all over the place with every syllable sounding like it’s produced differently
Ghiaurov is by far the best singer in this video.
yes… I have to agree :)
I wouldn't say Pinza and Kipnis are inferior to Ghiaurov.
@@revivaljesus no I wouldn't say that unqualified, nor for Mardones or Chaliapin, especially if we are talking about technique. But (to me at least) Ghiaurov has an edge in that in addition to essentially perfect technique (and playing such a wide variety of parts), he brings something distinctive to his interpretations… which is why he is my favourite. That said, the others are still fantastic!! I mean, especially for Wagner, Kipnis is divine.
@@francisca1378 Thanks for your reply. For me, Pinza was a more individual artist than Ghiaurov and a more expressive musician as well. That said I haven't heard anyone sing Verdi's Confutatis maledictis better than Ghiaurov. Chaliapin, ofcourse, was possibly the greatest male performer in operatic history. In terms of characterization he reigns supreme. Vocally he was great too, but he did have his defects as well. Mardones and Kipnis were similar in many ways. Both were basso profondos with a very wide vocal range. Mardones may have had an even greater voice (if you trust Ponselle), but Kipnis was probably more versatile. His Wagner recordings are definately first-class like you said. Ultimately, when talking about such great artists, putting them in some kind of objective order of quality, is rather pointless, ofcourse.
@@revivaljesus yea I agree, of course, you can't really rank them because they are all so different and excel in different things. I mean even comparing Kipnis and Ghiaurov or Ghiaurov and Mardones. Kipnis and Mardones have a different kind of voice than Ghiaurov, Kipnis is deeper, developed with an eye to singing german repertoire, etc.
Because my favourite operas are Verdi's, plus Boris Godunov, I will say Ghiaurov is the greatest bass (I do think he is more interesting in his interpretations than Pinza but Pinza is great too) - but anway, that means, I think he is the greatest in that repertoire not the greatest of every single bass ever, because he doesn't do any german repertoire and he is a higher bass not a profondo.
These contemporary bassos are all superb singers in their own way . I'm not one of those opera fans who automatically dismisses any living singer out of of hand . There are plenty of wonderful opera singers active today . Of course I have a lot of admiration for renowned singers of the past ; but I refuse to prefer them to living ones. in a knee jerk way . And I've been a huge opera fan for over 50 years ever sine I was a teenager .
Yes, you are right of course- it’s simply idiotic to AUTOMATICALLY dismiss the active dingers today. Yes, there may be wonderful dingers today- BUT COME ON NOW, THERE ARE NO SINGERS TODAY WHO CAN EVEN HOLD A CANDLE TO CALLAS, SUTHERLAND, SILLS, CORELLI, PAVAROTTI, GHIAUROV,. PINZA ETC.Nobody is getting THUNDEROUS 30 minute ovations anymore because there is simply not the talent that existed in opera’s TRUE golden age which really started with Callas. As exemplified by the current bass who tries to make up with melodramatics what he lacks in God given gift AND technique.
@@vittoriopassanante2601you hear these people live?
@@shettywapHave microphones gotten less advanced too?
@@miguelmartins9706 nah nah nah, you followin through. Have you heard these people live?
@@miguelmartins9706 Have you been to enough performances to realize that microphones often don't catch the true essence of someones voice? I've listened to plenty of recordings and thought something of someones voice, only to be proven wrong because that is the nature of microphones and recordings 10 feet from someone.
i'm so glad that i found your channel. thanks for the great videos!
glad you like them! :)
I always felt Furlanetto sounded like he was singing through a wool blanket.
Nesterenko is great too!
No he was not! Many people who heard him live told me that it was damned boring and week!
@@jimmychoo1857 I've never heard that. When did they hear him?
@@jimmychoo1857 He was just great.
4:58 what the hell is this ?? :D
Have you ever heard Furlanetto and Pape on live performance? Their voices definitely isn't small, even rather big comparing to younger bases.
Ive heard both live (many times) and I thought both were VERY small live (and I was quite close to the stage). I think Pape sounds a bit more muted live than Furlanetto. But neither is “big” by any means.... I mean Pape has tried to sing Wotan like 20 times and failed every time just because he cannot get over the orchestra. This would be no problem for Kipnis....
I heard Pape live as Boris. He has somewhat bigger voice than most contemporary singers, but it wasn't really beautiful to me. Too many strained, forced and even downright harsh sounds (but he also managed to produce some quite impressive sounds especially in his high register) during performance. But I didn't hear any hint of legato or even simple vocal finesse - most of phrases was broken, too many of them were grunted or yelled rather than sung. Russian language didn't help much I guess. Pape's Boris was downright hysterical and pathetic kind of character without any nobility or dignity which was a very distinctive element of Ghiaurov's or Christoff's interpretations.
@@ilgattopardo3231 I didn't hear him in Boris, but in Parsifal, Macbeth, and the Magic Flute (a few others, I forget, he used to perform at the Met all the time when I lived in NY) and I definitely found him drowned out by the orchestra. I heard some of his Boris on video (that was before my time, I think I was like 12 when he sang that!) and maybe he is just pushing harding on that part, so he managed to get more over the orchestra.
He can have a nice-ish tone to his voice sometimes (like on the high notes), so I get why people "liked" his voice at the start, but like you said, no technical skills at all, very stop and start singing, runs out of breath, and very obvious/un-nuanced (unintelligent…) interpretation and acting. And his italian is as gross sounding as his russian to my ears!
Ghiaurov owns Boris for me, not just because of the voice, but the acting/interpretation is so intelligent! I wish there were a video recording of that!
@@francisca1378 I heard both live too. Furlanetto is a bass-baritone without squillo, but he has great potential to be a good singer (if he didn’t sing throaty). Pape is definitely NOT A BASS, my voice is more bassy than Pape and I’m a baritone. Baritone Nikoloz Lagvilava is the loudest singer I’ve heard in live performances, his voice is at least 4 times bigger than Pape.
@@BaroneVitellioScarpia1 yes, Furlanetto seems to me closer to a real bass - when he was younger he wasn't as bad, but still definitely had problems with his technique.
Pape is ...comically bad, so nasal! - he definitely is not a really bass, but he could have been a fine baritone. I couldn't believe how weak he was live (often he was barely audible) - the video recordings definitely make his voice sound bigger than it is.
I haven't heard of Lavgilava - I'll check him out ! :)
I heard Furlanetto last year in Paris (73 years old). The voice is HUGE and is still good. Sounds a little bit unstable, but what a voice, especially for that age!
Terfel and d’Arcangelo are baritones or bass-baritones, you don’t want to compare them to actual bass.
Why was Furlanetto such a favorite in NY NY he sounded like he was singing through a wool blanket.
really! I heard him live in NY, too (few years ago)… I thought it was awful - it was Verdi's reqiuem and he kept moving while he was sitting, fixing his shoes, his pants … it was so distracting and disrespectful.
Why do modern singers sound so un-expansive like they are about loose their grip.
Woooooow, gorgeous Kipnis!
Great video!
Not sure if i am correct, but Terfel is a Bass-baritone not a bass?
And frankly not that great either. He worked very well as Leporello, because he has the felxibility needed for Mozart, but Wotan is definitely too much for him, and he lacks the elegance Scarpia would require.
Tbh most current Scarpias have a problem. Terfel is a brute. Hampson has all the elegance but not the vocal power. Tézier sounds too noble and Verdian (and frankly, he just isn't the type for pure evil).
@@akechijubeimitsuhide Tezier sounds a bit throaty tbh, but at least he projects his voice well.
He is a bass-baritone and not a bass at all. However, sometimes when he's in a bad mood he may sound light and almost tenor-like. Whenever he's in a good mood, his true voice is shown.
13:44 That's a very good low F.
Modern singers sing voce ingolata, and the previous generation didn’t. It takes a much longer time to develop the voice to have the right chest balance and to be out to the audience and not giving a concert to yourself inside of your own skull.
Thank you for this - lot of work here! Furlanetto (I think it’s Furlanetto first up of the “new ones” ) - moves his head around too much. He moves it all the time - it’s really irritating. Impossible to get any legato doing that! I think the use of this term “nasal” is misplaced though, and I just got into a comment battle with someone who had used it about another singer, because to me a nasal voice is literally that, an adenoidal sound. If someone told me I was singing nasally I would think they were saying I was singing through my nose! These “modern” examples you give are covering their voices, their voices are placed too far back in the throat, rather than ‘nasal’ - whereas Ghiaurov in your eg here has the more forward placement, the bel canto placement. He can be more covered at times. It is a bass affectation, I think. But ultimately, it’s not that there’s some modern vocal teaching method that’s doing this to the new ones, it’s that these “modern” examples you give just aren’t as gifted as the “old” singers - and some of them are unpleasant - simples! All the careful technical analysis in the world isn’t going to make that any more apparent than it already is, in your interesting comparison. They sing for themselves, as it were. I do like the smoky timbre of Pape’s voice though…sorry!
Tres beaux commentaires de grands amateurs voire plus , mais l' impact d'une voix sur chacun d'entre nous est fonction de notre oreille ,notre sensibilite et engendre des ondes qui nous touchent a des degres differents et font vibrer notre " Âme musicale " qui est notre signature comme le timbre , la couleur ,le poids de leur voix est leur signature .
Pour ma part je suis sensible a la " rondeur , la chaleur et suis toujours surpris par sa capacite de projection et le calibrage de la voix de Ghiaurov .
Mais Kipnis en plus sombre presente selon moi les memes qualites .
Chez les barytons - basses j' adorais Hvorostovsky mais au dessus pour mon " oreille " Bastianini est inegalable .
J' ai 74 ans d' Amour fou pour l' Opera .
Kristov a ete cite a juste titre ( Quelle force ) mais Siepi , Neri ( plus pres de ma sensibilite ) Gaiotti ....
Comment choisir entre Monaco et Corelli ? ......
Pardonnez - moi mais c' est comme les femmes , il y en a eant de belles ,superbes , divines et un geste , un mouvement de bras gracieux , une effluve , un parfum ,la sonorite d' un rire et vous etes touche au coeur .
Pour moi la Voix est une fleche au coeur .
Honestly I think that modern tenors are much worse than modern basses. People want a loud sound and they want big high notes, so they end up screaming. Sadly, the screamers don't even have big voices
Interesting comparisons. Of "modern" (or reasonably modern) basses who I have heard live, I would have chosen Paata Burchuladze and John Tomlinson. Big solid impressive voices, maybe at their best 25 years ago.
Burchaladze is a bit voce ingolata, but he definitely isn't the worst, I don't really know Tomlinson … he's a bit before my time.
@@xxsaruman82xx87 Actually Burchuladze is much more throaty than Tomlinson. Tomlinson is not bad but Burchuladze sounds like he has a ball in his throat.
Tomlinson is probably the most vocally impressive "modern" Wotan I heard, especially in the Kupfer Ring where he was still quite young. He's a beast. And he's a fantastic Claggart, too.
@akechijubeimitsuhide :: From a very young age, Tomlinson had a strikingly commanding voice. He had a small role in Handel's Julio Caesare. It was awesome then and it simply grew to Wotan proportions.
Shaloapin has a GREAT record of Filippo
Interesting video, but I have a couple of issues. First, Bryn Terfel isn't a Bass, he's a Baritone; so his tone will be very different. Second, if you're going to include Isis & Osiris & not include Kurt Moll? It seems like you're prereferencing lighter, baritone type voices.
The difference is between loud and resonant!
How old was Furlanetto when this was made?? Seems like he's been singing a LONG time and could be worn out.
Ghiaurov rules them all.
Dal vivo :
1 Ghiaurov = 10 Siepi .
Mi ricordo ancora come quando cantava Ghiaurov stavano zitti tutti e alla fine del suo canto il pubblico di quest’epoca gridavano tutti come impazziti ‘Bravoooooo’ !
Oggi di sto leggendo dei commenti veramente ridicoli sulla voce di questo Fenomeno .
Da dove venite ragazzi , dalla Luna?!?
il vecchio
e vero...!
In my opinion Siepi is better but Ghiaurov is also pretty cool
@@bradycall1889
Le registrazioni di Siepi sono di una bellezza artistica rara.
Purtroppo dal vivo era un’altra cosa…
Dal vivo :
1 Ghiaurov = 10 Siepi
Poi le teorie sterili le lascio per voi ragazzi.
Sovente una registrazione è una illusione dolce 🍭…
il vecchio
@@bodilotobuonasera, intende dire che dal vivo la voce di Siepi era piccola o semplicemente poco espressiva?
Ghiaurov uses "portamento ", while Pape does not...
One of the main differences between Ghiaurov & Furlanetto is that Ghiaurov has a stronger & deeper voice. In fact this applies to most of your examples. And I agree that your modern examples do not compare well with your "old school".
Probably correct: I have always complained that modern basses that I have heard are a bit thin on top & have no strength in their low notes - from A2 down.
Isn’t it also a bit harder to judge if you can't see the singer? Ghiaurov might not be acting as much as Furlanetto is. Maybe he's just standing there?
I suppose I'd be fairer if both were studio recordings and not live performances. A lot also depends on how close you are to the source and what equipment was used. You basically need the exact same one with exactly the same settings to judge fairly.
News readers from the 60s also sound entirely different from modern news readers.
First of all, if you have ever seen a video of Ghiaurov, especially when he was young, you know he is a fantastic actor … and beautiful to look at :)
Both are live recordings. I think it is fairer to use two live recordings than two studio recordings because the studio recordings can make the person sound "louder."
But regardless, the point isn't volume, it is the tone and the way in which the vowels are formed which is important. And no amount of sound equipment is going to change whether the person is nasal or not - just like it isn't going to change someone's accent when speaking. If someone has a nasal voice when speaking, you will hear it on any kind of recording.
Actually your point about the news readers is a good one… but it is making my point. I'm thinking about North America now, and in the past people spoke on television with a more "trained" voice. Nowadays people speak much more nasal. The older way of speaking was done intentionally and so it sounds different. If you heard these people in real life, they would have a different speaking voice than modern news recorders. There are… studies about this, how North American accents change. Like american actors from the 30's don't have a different accent because the technology was different… they had a different accent because… well, they had a different accent.
@@francisca1378 Well, I suppose it just comes down to taste. I think Furlanetto is sublime, you don’t and that's fine.
As for the studio recordings (which I already knew they weren't btw) you are right about that you can manipulate a lot there, but you can also have the conditions more similar. It just sounds as if the microphone is much nearer in the older live recording, and I can tell, I've had a training in sound recording. (I might add that it is not just about loudness but much more about volume, which includes how rich the voice sounds) So it's just hard to properly compare in the end.
But like I said, you do you, it might just be a shame for you that you have to suffer so much disappointment with "modern" singers.
My beef with the newer productions is incidentally more about the sets and stagings and not about the singers at all.
@@scordeteyla I don't agree that it all comes down to taste. There is an objectively correct way of singing. Beyond this, questions of interpretation and nuance are somewhat up to someone's taste. I mean, MdM's Otello or Vicker's, those questions are hard to answer objectively. But objectively, I can say they both have good technique. We are talking about a physical thing here.
And like I said, whether the volume or whatever is changed, that is never going to change how the person pronounces words - it would be like someone having an american accent in reality but somehow you could manipulate the recording to make their vowels no longer nasal and their r's no longer rhotic and so they would sound british ahah.
I agree about modern productions, I think they are really ruining everything - but I think this is done in conjunction with a decline in the technique of singing. To me, they go hand in hand.
@@francisca1378 I apologise for being obtuse about your meaning. That being said I've never had a problem with Furlanetto's Italian diction/pronunciation, only when it comes to for him foreign languages, like German and English, words get muddled; I don’t mind though because I just like the way his voice sounds.
I didn’t properly listen to the other, but I suppose Rene Pape should have no problem with German diction either. As a German though I always noticed I don’t understand many German operas without looking at the surtitles or subtitles respectively.
Sorry, if I still don’t quite understand; I'm clearly no expert in the field, if I enjoy something I just do and cannot really say why. Can't even tell what in FF's voice makes me like it so much
@@scordeteyla It isn't that he pronounces anything incorrectly - Ghiaurov definitely mispronounces things more often and he has sometimes has discernible accent when he sings.
The problem with Furlanetto is that he doesn't use proper open vowels - it is like the difference between a "normal speaking voice" and a "theatrical voice". The difference isn't just that one is quieter or weaker - you actually have to form the vowels differently so you can project the voice - here is a video where Mario del Monaco shows the right vowels in speaking so they project. It is in italian but you can get the idea (if you go to about the 2.00 mark).
ua-cam.com/video/NbKpnNPfsiQ/v-deo.html
So even though Furlanetto "pronounces" the words more correctly than Ghiaurov, ultimately the inability to form the vowels in a way so that they project properly makes Fulanetto harder to understand when he sings - and the same problem with Rene Pape. I'm a native italian speaker and I lived in Germany for years, but I find Ghiaurov wayyyyyy easier to understand in Italian, even though he has an accent. Or someone like Kipnis or Bohnen is wayyyy clearer to me in German.
This is also a big problem in going to the opera nowadays… one basically would have to memorize the text of the opera in order to understand what is being said, even if you are a native speaker of the language… In a way this really forms the "standard" for good technique that makes it objective not subjective. If I can't hear and understand what you are saying in a theatre… you aren't doing it right ahah.
W Giaiotti
I totally love Nicolai Ghiaurov. He was a genius, one-in-a-million, great gifted voice, great learned and practiced technique, great acting talent.
So it is so sad to see a comparison of a young Ghiaurov's recording (is it the 1968 live performance reported in the comment? If so, he was only 39, in full strength, totally represented in his voice) to a live recording of 61-years-old (!) Furlanetto. Discussing the "strength" and "support of the body" is unfair and insulting. It would be the same unfairness when trying to apply these standards to this ua-cam.com/video/vlxdTVwZiQU/v-deo.html recording, where Ghiaurov is still "only" 54.
Better compare the first Ghiaurov's aria to this recording ua-cam.com/video/qfihuIpD2LQ/v-deo.html, where Furlanetto is 37. A different voice, different technique, but a much more honest comparison.
In the next example, in Faust, Furlanetto is 51 years old. Compare it to this recording of Ghiaurov, being 51 years old in the Chicago version of Faust: ua-cam.com/video/rdInLMlgTNM/v-deo.html Magnificent, no matter that losing some of the quality of the 1969's example, where Ghiaurov is 11 years younger.
Yes, the two have many differences, but why should anyone try (intentionally or just carelessely) to mislead a listener with the (naturally deteriorating) quality of any aging voice?
TBH the best way to compare Ghiaurov and Furlanetto is watching them both on the same stage in Don Carlos. And they were both great, Furlanetto didn't sound smaller. Comparing different recordings with different technical setups may result in mistakes.
you can tell whether their vowels, vibrato, etc. are correct on a recording. The issue isn't that Furlanetto is not loud, it is the quality of the voice. So I agree, you can't compare whether Ghiaurov is louder than Furlanetto on a recording, but that wasn't my point. My point is that Furlanetto is nasal (his vowels are constricted) and Ghiaurov sings open, and you definitely can hear that on a recording.
Btw, I have heard Furlanetto live and his voice is quite small and nasal, and I was quite close to the stage when I heard him :/
Actually you can compare them - directly! In the 1983 Met Don Carlo, Furlanetto sings the Grand Inquisitor and Ghiaurov Philip II. Furlanetto is 20 years younger than Ghiaurov, but in that performance, he sounds much less secure than Ghiaurov.
@@francisca1378 As I said in my other comment, you can compare them, directly. They shared a stage in the Met 1983 Don Carlo :)
@@xxsaruman82xx87 Exactly!!! Bravo!
@@xxsaruman82xx87 hm I was literally talking about that one. Thanks! I hope someone will watch it too
Different worlds, nowadays vocal quality is poor, degeneration of this art.
Oggi cantano tutto ingolato, colpa di molti maestri di canto
No haber mencionado a Siepi y haber hecho un vídeo comparativo entre profesionales del canto, y encima habiendo escogido malas grabaciones de los que cataloga como "actuales" (Furlanetto debutó en el 74, Ghiaurov se retira casi en el 2000, por lo que fueron contemporáneos prácticamente en la carrera unos 25 años) evidencia el gran desconocimiento que tiene de la lírica. Y seguro que no ha oído en vivo a ninguno!
I really cannot over how bad these modern basses sound compared with their predecessors. Pape and Terfel started out with something but both soon lost it - the ugly pulse and raw, muffled tone of their singing are just horrible - and Groissböck is just as embarrassment. I heard Ghiaurov sing in "Faust" and "Aida" live at Covent Garden and the richness of that voice stays with me.
Kipnis mostruoso Mardones mostruoso Pinza , negli anni migliori ,imbattibile per fascino e malia.Ghiaurov , grande , ma debita distanza . Degli altri non si parli .
No Christoff or Abdrazakov? I think the only complaint I’d make about this is you’re comparing Live to studio recordings which is unfair because repeat can be done in a studio and splicing etc.
Most of the recordings used are live……
Both Christoff and Abrazakov are not ideal (Christoff better though, Abrazakov terrible)
The idea that you can judge who sings the King Phillip well today and before without including either Christoff or Siepi is pretty ridiculous. Especially considering you include someone as second rate as Ghiaurov with that unfocused and hooty sound.
Terfel seems to be singing inappropriate roles. He has more of a lyrical voice, not huge enough
Terfel's voice did have the dramatic heft and volume back in the 1990s His Jochanaan with Malfitano Dohnanyi and his Schwanengesang recording display some of that. The voice changed in the 2000s ..
@@reviewsvoiceontube interesting. Another talented Welsh singer for sure. Iirc correctly Welsh is his first language.
Terfel si an helden tenor.
, my dear
Nope a low baritone whose voice got damaged by singing heavy repertoire all the time
But René Pape is also gorgeous.
Not good comparisons. The first group have good studio recordings. The second group are on stages.
oh my god, everyone says this… for the thousandth time, they aren't studio recordings. They are LIVE recordings. They just aren't VIDEO recordings…
What is wrong with people, do you just say things without even knowing whether they are true or not?
I very rarely use studio recordings in my video, except when it is a really old singer and there is no live recording.
Read the descriptions mate
@@oliverdelica2289 seriously…like how thick are people?? ahha
I'm not going to lie but I do not understand how anyone can call Terfel a Bass when he is clearly a Baritone who forces himself into repertoire that isn't where his voice is
W Giaiotti
A few things about Furlanetto and Ghiaurov comparison:
-They are slightly different types of bassos (not the exact same fach), even if they may sing most of the same repertoire.
-F's age is around 61 (2001) and G's age is around 49 (1968) on the Verdi recordings presented.
-The microphone placement seem very different (plus: either the treble is cranked up in the older recording, or the bass is cranked up in the newer recording... it's way too obvious! haha)
-Met opera seats (3850) nearly two times more than la scala (2030). I've not been to la scala to compare its acoustics with Met's current acoustics.
-I've heard FF live twice in Don Quichotte... and it was by far the most magical bass voice I have heard live. The healing sound waves of his voice were so well balanced - they hit me like a wall at the very back of the theater where I was standing.
And by the way, someone famous once quoted "there are as many techniques as there are singers." It becomes a matter of personal preference after a certain point, combined with a personal sound that will last the longest. Who knows how complex their private lives are and how busy their calendars (schedule of singing engagement) are: all of that can also have an effect on their voice and technique.
That's all I'll say ;)
Koodos on making this video. It seems like a lot of work has gone into this.
Keep up the quest to finding that perfect technique ;)
sure there are different styles/nuances to people's techniques, but there is only one way to pronounce the vowels correctly… it doesn't matter whether you are 75 and singing in open air or 25 and singing on a studio recording. So everything that you've said… doesn't matter. It is just all excuses for bad technique.
It doesn't matter that Ghiaurov is (only 10 years…) younger or that La Scala has less seats, he is singing correctly and Furlanetto is singing incorrectly. If anything, the bias is in favour of Furlanetto because that is a professional recording, so the mic''s would have been really well placed, while Ghiaurov's is a bootleg recording so who knows how it was done.
Anyway, give me a recording of Ghiaurov when he is older and critique his voice, that's fair (and fyi his vowels still aren't incorrect even in the 1990's… he is just lacking support on certain notes…). It isn't about critizing the person, it is about criticisng the tehcnique. You can still like Furlanetto, I don't care - my point is just that Ghiaurov' technique is objectively correct and Furlanetto's is … not.
It is as simple as this: his vowels are nasal.
I've heard Furlanetto too many times (younger and older) and I thought his performances were very very poor.
Anyway… not everything is subjective as you seem to want it to be….
I agree. When you listen to Furlanetto live it's a completely different thing. Of course he has technical problems, but the sounds just covers the whole theatre, like a wall of sound. He sounded two times bigger than Hernandez and Amartushvin.
@@ignas0220 I've heard him live and I definitely found him quite small… I think the issue is, yea, he is bigger than other modern basses (I agree on that)… but that doesn't compare him to older basses, who were much more powerful.
Anyway the video isn't about how loud people are (because the is hard to judge from a recording), but about their technique/pronunciation…
Shantanu T
Lei non ha sentito mai dal vivo le voci di Ghiaurov e Furlanetto, è un fatto.
Dal vivo :
1 Ghiaurov = 10 Furlanetto
e ancora sono un vecchio generoso.
Parlando del lato artistico e la vocalità dal vivo nessun confronto possibile.
Conosco benissimo le voci di entrambi .
Lei sta ragionando ascoltando le registrazioni di Ghiaurov e Furlanetto.
Dal vivo nessun confronto possibile.
Ripeto , dal vivo
1 Ghiaurov = 10 Furlanetto e ancora
Saluti cordiali
il vecchio
PS
Una registrazione sovente è una illusione dolce 🍨 e viceversa…
Da 60 anni non credo più nelle registrazioni, purtroppo 😣
Ciao
5:38 Very strange/interesting, to me Ghiarov's e' sounds a lot "brighter" while Pape sounds rounder and darker;
also, while Ghiaurov's vibrato sounds 100% awesome, Pape's "wobble" -just like with the preceding piano example (even more so there) - is an example of what I perceive as a negative wobble type:
sounds unintentionally funny (in a dramatic role of course), makes me think of like a demon ghoul who's fallen into a deep comedy trap box or sth lol - Vader's "nnnnawwwww-ohhhhh" sounds funny for similar reasons.
Furlanetto has maybe half of that in his climactic high notes here, my brain sort of code-switches at will in cases like this.
The microphone placement seems very different in many of these comparisons. I saw Furlanetto singing the role of Mephistopheles when his was 39 years old (Gounod's Faust - Köln, 1988). The volume and projection of his voice was really impressive.
Ghaurov has a divine god-given voice. So, even getting in the same sentence of comparison with him is already a recognition for the other singer.
I saw Ghaiurov perform Boris with the San Francisco Opera in the early Eighties. He was breathtaking.
Ghiaurov is amazing. Other planet...
I also prefer the "old" signers to the "new", but this kind of comparison is unfair (very often). Young Ghiaurov (studio recording) with old Furlanetto (live recording). When Ghiaurov was 60, as Furlanetto, he also was not at his best.
Ghiaurov's is a LIVE recording…. I love how everyone just assumes that I use studio recordings, when I almost always use live recordings. It is true that Ghiaurov is younger (40, I think), but (a) this was the only recording of Furlanetto I could find and (b) age does not account for bad vowels, even when Ghiaurov is older and his voice is weaker, his vowels are still good.
Anyway, the point isn't to beat Furlanetto up, it is just to show what bad singing is and what good singing is. You could do a comparison where you show me Ghiaurov at age 60 singing a bad note and use that as an example of bad singing (like the error would be that the note is unsupported, I guess) and that would be fair.
@@francisca1378 OK, sorry, my mistake with the "studio recording". Btw, I prefer Ghiaurov to Furlanetto. But for me, Boris Christoff was even better. As for young Furlanetto, see his Philip with Karajin in 1986: ua-cam.com/video/qfihuIpD2LQ/v-deo.html
@@zbynekvydra8210 He still sounds very constricted/weak there, and his vowels are still poor…
Christoff is definitely better, but no where near Ghiaurov. He is quite nasal and although his (very rough) voice sometimes is thrilling.. in addition to lacking a beautiful tone like Ghiaurov or Pinza, he also lacks a lot of the nuance/subtly of Ghiaurov in his interpretation. No competition between the two in my book, plus Christoff was quite cruel to Ghiaurov, which makes me like him… less. But he is definitely better than Furlanetto.
For me: Ghiaurov. Alwaus.
Did you miss Siepi on purpose?
Giulio Neri? Tancredi Pasero? Luciano Neroni?
Bravo giaurov, moderan singers should embarrass after lessening giaurov
Thank you for a great video
My favorite basso is Boris Christoff
His voice is not just elegant rather perfect for many roles
Just very expressive actor with a voice!
Too bad we heard nothing from Siepi
Among the old school basses we have to remind Nazzareno De Angelis, in my opinion unmatched so far
Please don't forget Cesare Siepi
except for his ridiculous caprino for half of his career
@@sananton2821OMG 😂😂😂😂😂
7:00 you aren't being fair to Mr. Terfel - is a great baritone and you compare him to one of the greatest basso...
not every modern opera singer is bad, only the most famous ones, that's why you should always go for the second cast, they're casted by talent, not name(or face)
this should be noted, as those videos cast such a dark and sad light in Opera, as is if there is no future, no point in going to a live perfomance.
I agree - I've heard some really good voices. And I still go to opera live very often! You can learn even from hearing the bad singers. But yea, the famous ones are almost all bad…
Ghiaurov has an exceptional voice, difficult to find today.
Ninguno como Giaurov. Su timbre, su potente voz. Yo lo oí en Paris y sin ningún esfuerzo su voz corría por todo el teatro. En Boris Godunov. ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Ghiarov wins, hands down. Furlanetto sounds puny. I’ve heard him live and was impressed, but that’s a long long time ago. Ghiaurov #1!
I LOVE this one! Great job!!
Thanks!!! :)
It looks to me that the 2nd modern bass is, instead of sing out, he sings in (@4:58). It shows visually by lifting his torso and expanding and you can hear it also. Like he sings to himself instead of to the audience.
He’s so bad and shouldn’t be on stage...
No. Ghiaurov says COR, and AMOOOR....you don't hear it ?
6:40 tenore corto.
Groissböck was embarrassingly bad. He looked and sounded like he was doing a Saturday Night Live skit.
Hard to compete with Ghiaurov really! He was the full package!
Pape is not a true bass, among other things. It seems like the supply has dried out?. There’s a bass-baritone guy at the Met who gets all bass parts, including Commendatore in Don Giovanni 🙄 ...
Giaiotti il migliore
Glad to see another old school canel!!
My two favorite BASSES are Gotlob Frick and Jerome Hines.
Instead of allowing vowels to adapt to different ranges, the more 'modern' singers 'cover' as a separate act. This obscures the vowels, burying the text, and makes singing in tune a constant struggle to avoid sagging under pitch. Kipnis' darkness flirts up to the edge, in some languages he does overdo it.
Kipnis has a beautiful voice, very large, but to me he often sounded on the edge of forcing. To me, it was a very Russian style. They seem to prize sheer loudness - - even today.
@@marksmith3947 Really? Most famous Imperial Russian/Soviet never had particularly loud voices with few notable exceptions. Mario del Monaco and other 'Melocchians' were Italians after all. As was Guelfi.
Anyway Kipnis never sounded really forced to me. BTW have you ever heard his recording of Wolfram's aria?
@@grouchomarx5609 I can believe that you know more Russian singers than I do. I consider the wretched Galuzin an example of a Russian who sings too loudly. He's almost a screamer. It's a long time since I listened to Kipnis but although his voice was beautiful, I heard an edge which I did not care for. Dont you think Chaliapin was better? I'm one degree of separation from Kipnis by the way. A friend was his neighbor as a child.
@@marksmith3947 Galouzine has good-sized and rather great natural voice but indeed his vocal technique (at least since 2000) is no good. But back in 1990's he manged to do some nice singing (his 1997-1998 performances as Calaf being the primary example). Piavko's voice on the other hand had always been on the wobbly side (really pity since I really like his timbre and expression). Atlantov and Nelepp are better examples of Russian tenors with huge voices.
Chaliapin is a special case but he never was a thundering all-around loud singer, quite a contrary in my opinion. I generally tend to prefer him in a song repertoire rather than in operatic one.
The microphone placement seem very different in many of these comparisons. I saw Furlanetto singing the role of Mephistopheles when his was 39 years old (Gounod's Faust - Köln, 1988). The volume and projection of his voice was really impressive.
Look out for a young (28) English bass, William Thomas, whose voice bears a striking resemblance to Ghiaurov, both in timbre and the breadth of the sound.
Die "Alten" klar und laut, die "Neuen" verschattet und leiser. Unfair....
To do a proper comparison shouldnt the recordings be compared almost in the same volume ? Or is it a coincidence that the old recordings or the tecordings of the favorite ones are played almost 10 dB louder.
I dont to descredit the arguments of the examples because they are proper. The thing is to lure the listener through manipulation of the volume of the recording is a little bit subjective.
It is common sense that people prefer the louder recordings, there are studies concluded about that.
…Ghiaurov is a legend. I have to admit that I didn’t expect Mr. Groissböck &Co. being so deficient. However it is clearly audible.
The same applies however for current Tenors regarding the Golden Era, GDS, MDM, FC, JB or CB. Just to name the Italian and French repertoire. All in vain.
Absolutely hated Furlenetto couldn't understand that plaudits he got ... oh yeah it is called ignorance. Why do these guys enjoy singing through a wool blanket?
I guess basses today are decent, but a lot of the time they aren’t QUITE as pleasant to listen to as the old school basses, honestly.
Agree with most notes and comments you made here.Ghiaurov and Kipnis are exceptional singers with outstanding voices.Among my personal favourites But the short excerpt from Wotans Farewell from Wagner's Walküre with Terfel/ Abbado is very good in my opinion. Terfel is not a bass so he lacks the depth and darker tone of other singers in this role but he displays good strength and dramatic heft with immaculate prononciation/ diction...the voice was still very good at that time around the early 2000s.
I love the excerpts in this video. Ghiaurov was just awesome. Terfel doesn’t make it for me as Boris with all due respect. Not just the voice but his personality isn’t right for it. Especially in comparison to Chaliapin and Ghiaurov. My dad and I heard Furlanetto in 2005 in L’italiana and we were impressed. The excerpts shown here don’t represent Furlanetto in his prime.
Another painful "pseudo" bass/bass bartiton is Erwin Schrott😂
Groissböck is unthinkable in Italian repertoire
It’s unbelievable that he sang Phillippe last year with John Reayla sang the GI. He is not an example of a perfect singer, but he’s only like 35 and his voice was 3 times the size and depth Groussböck’s.
And he seems lacking depth. I heard him sing Sarastro, bottom Fs were sometimes out of timbre. And he's only 47 years old.@@boundary2580
Reizen - Hines - I'd be happy with Kurt Bohme
Bravo !
One must realize the theaters and halls these voices were recorded in had different acoustical environments and some voices in this video sounded nothing like they way they did
live at all!
And he possess an infallible technique....
Gottlob Frick is missing in this video
3:36 was definitely comically bad as well
Ghiaurov è un fuoriclasse mentre Furlanetto è un basso...
I used to agree with this video, but the more i studied singing the more I realized what a freak of nature Ghiaurov was. He had a MASSIVE sound, so he was able to use very bright vowels to consistently let out a huge roar. Issue is, not everyone can do that, and most basses that start switching after A/Bb already have to cover at least a little to not lose quality of sound. Taking into account health issues (which Ghiaurov encountered precisely because he sang everything open), the technique isn’t very optimal. Even still he sometimes loses the forwardness of his sound. Even though the point here is that Ghiaurov opens his vowels through bright sounds, he still actually opens them through an O sound (into an A vowel). Furlanetto opens his vowels through the Y vowel, which is technically completely correct, since the closed Y vowel provides the most access to the empty but supported sound (in which chest is added to). His jaw is very clenched though, which is where the real difference lies. Ghiaurov opened his mouth, Furlanetto doesn’t. I also don’t really like his stylistic choices and musical interpretation (even though it seems to be mostly inspired by Ghiaurov’s, judging from the timings and such).
Ghiaurov’s audio recording is also just outright better. I heard it was an audience rip, but it really doesn’t seem like it is (I’d expect there to be noise ruffage during clapping or just during the performance, but that’s not 100%). Furlanetto’s recording is definitely mixed to counteract compression, which Ghiaurov’s recording has a lot of (and honestly compression doesn’t sound that bad, it makes the sound bigger). When I hear in hall recordings, I hear the reverb from the walls and all other types of feedback, but Ghiaurov’s has none of that. The mic has to have been set up close to the front rows. Anywho, still love Ghiaurov.
Finally someone makes this point. I’m not the biggest fan of Pape or Groisbeck, but Ghiaurov wasn’t just a run of the mill bass back from back then, he is arguably the greatest of all time. There were plenty of lackluster or “ok” basses back then, but those guys didn’t get recorded. Sometimes even incredible singers never get noticed as well. I think this causes a weird information bias where people think singing has gotten worse because we only hear the best singers from back then.
Ghiaurov isn't a top-30 bass. There were lots of good ones out there.@@boundary2580
I’d say the reason singing has gotten “worse” is because opera houses pick singers solely on qualifications/resume rather than quality now. There’s so many singers that at some point companies don’t even care for casting the best choices anymore.
Besides the obviously strained sound of many modern basses, it's simply unmusical, because they're just forcing out sound... You hear Ghiaruov and Kipnis making musical choices that are interesting and grounded in their technique but get none of that from the modern singers, especially Groissböck who resorts to moving all over the place to express because he can't do ti with the voice. Not to mention the trend of overdarkening vowels that has taken over pedagogy and just produces inflexible voices that can't carry and don't have teh depth of sound that they ironically think they're producing by taking out all the overtones.
For the life of me I can't understand why Terfel ever went into such heavy rep. I quite enjoy his Mozart roles from back in the day, but nowadays it's just...oef.
Terfel...innascoltabile.
In Fillipo Aria´s also I prefer Siepi or Christoff than Ghiaurov, what do you think? I'm a very lucky man because when I was child my first opera in a theater has been Boris Godunov with Ghiaurov... unforgettable...
Ghiaruov wins - no contest. Christoff is very nasal… and kind of boring tbh. I do like Siepi too but I think Ghiaurov gives… more to the interpretation. His 1967 Vienna recording of the aria is the best.
ua-cam.com/video/L-Pgxx3ABxM/v-deo.html
Hearing Ghiaurov's Boris… that is my dream… I am so jealous of you!! :)
@@francisca1378
Dal vivo Ghiaurov con la sua vocalità Unica e la sua Arte vinceva sempre durante le sue recite.
Per capire qual’era veramente la vera voce di Ghiaurov gli amanti della lirica devono sentire la sua interpretazione di Seneca dal vivo da Parigi !
Questa registrazione mostra a 40 %
quale era la bellezza unica della sua voce .
Saluti cordiali
il vecchio
Ferran compte puerto
Questo commento suo è la prova che lei non ha sentito mai la voce di Ghiaurov .
1 Ghiaurov = 15 Christoff
1 Ghiaurov = 10 Siepi e ancora...
😉
@@francisca1378 Christoff boring? Never. I saw him in the theater many times and his performances were vocally and visually pure electricity. Very slavic sounding it was not of the voluminous volume of Ghiaruov which was the largest bass voice I heard live.
There is no "old school".
The anatomy of a singer doesn`t change.
What a pedaaaaaal, OMG.
Old school would be Plançon, Nivette, Belhomme, Navarrini, Hesch, Gailhard, Chambon, Delmas, Journet, Bukhtoyarov, etc.
Mardones counts too. Chaliapin was old, but not old-school like his contemporaries Didur, Sibiryakov, Kastorskij, Segurola, etc.
I thought Furlanetto was better. He has better recordings it fare to take best recordings. That german guy with piano is a vlown!
again, I'm not critique Furlanetto on the whole - I'm showing what he is doing wrong in that video. That's all.
Groissböck is Austrian, not German. Yet more, I found his voice quite tired in this part of King Philip. Totally inadequate in this repertoire.
Groissböck as Wotan ... I'm not sure it is a good choice.