A great summary of tea economics in China here! The challenges that the market currently faces are well-explained with info on the growing prices of the famous areas. This video can help consumers better understand the market. I commend you, William, for choosing the transparent route and helping educate through these videos. You've pretty much done the video I was wanting to do myself!
It's always so refreshing when people in the field point out systemic issues instead of moralising individuals. Thank you for the video and for the work you do!
Yes ! I'm new to Pu Erh and while I love it, I think we should tell beginners to not listen to tea snobs. Some people can afford a 7542 from the 90s brewed in an antique tetsubin filled with morning dew gathered by fairies - good for them, but let's be real : as a beginner with average palate, my nose and taste buds will not make the difference. It's a bit the consumer's responsibility to not shoot for the stars if they cannot afford it... I've never drank any of the best Bordeaux wines, and never will - but when I turned 25, I had probably drank more good Bordeaux wine than many people in their life (I started at 14 ;). Yet I don't pretend to be an expert on wine - I'm not, by any stretch. Everywhere I read that 'border teas' are all the same and not worth it by definition... I think it says in this video that some are good ? Anyways, right now I'm drinking a 12 years old sheng from Myanmar, it might be 'fake' but it just tastes good enough to me, it is very potent yet mellow enough... It was dirt cheap, and at the same low price, I bought some very, very disappointing Yunnan shu puerh, more than once !
Very informative and unusually levelheaded video. Thank you William. People get hysterical over "fake" tea, and the situation is obviously more complicated than simply "bad guys faking tea", something you illustrate in detail here.
I truly appreciate your perspective on this topic! I just wish it was easier to get good tea in the US. I have so much tea stored because I’m constantly seeking to understand tea and each experience forces me to seek more information in order to compare, contrast or validate my findings. Videos like yours definitely make that process less daunting. Thank you!
I"ve liked this video immensely, it's void of the "revelatory" condemnations that usually accompany such discussion, there is a calmer view of the phenomenon. Though I find some of your videos a bit long winded and excessively pedantic, this one is a real treasure. Keep on doing the good work, William!
I appreciate this video VERY much,it is a topic that is all too often avoided,taboo,in fact. It’s the prestige factor,demanded by the consumer,which lures the suppliers into the fakery. My only contribution to this conversation is something that will make you laugh,because it is so obvious,and yet it happens so often: DO NOT buy Puerh off of eBay! Entering a notable or famous tea on eBay is exactly what the fake market is preying on,and you will get what you pay for. Anyone want a 7542 that is clearly not,upon tasting? Yes,I got it on eBay,I learned my lesson!🙄
experienced tea puer drinkers in Yunnan would know “pay for what you like and can afford” and not go for “branded tea” because they all know these are highly speculative or overhyped. tea traders r just merchants out there to exploit the inexperienced, no different from any other trades or businesses. not only brand can b faked, due to speculation, the incentives r therefore so high that cheats r so common at industry level. you hit the nail on the head - that is the reality about puer tea.
William, before I lost my wealth and health to cancer I was very travelled and a connoisseur of great wine - especially Bordeaux. And similar to your thoughts, one day I had a blended french red table wine with a coupe of beautiful lamb chops and pomme frittes at a lovely inexpensive alleyway cafe in Paris. The wine was one of the most delicious I had even had. And at that moment I realized that after many, many years of unintended snobbery, it was silly. While I could still drink wine, I grew to love good quality blended wines at inexpensive wines. Ultimately blended, unblended - it does not matter! And the same is true now for tea. The best tasting tea for what I can afford to spend is the only answer! Thank you for such integrity.
I'm too new to the Puerh world to connect names with expectations, I just know, if the tea is from a famous area, it's too expensive for me. I am sure in the knowledge, that some good teas from "unknown" areas can be great. Also of course I've heard so much about fakes, that I take a name to usually mean "in the style of", which is okay with me, never forget the best trees can have a bad year. I'm not looking for the perfect [area of your choice], I'm looking for teas that I like. What I like can change from one year to the next.
In my view "fakes" do not really matter unless you are a collector and/or reseller. If you are just a drinker then the only thing you need to worry about is if the tea is worth what you paid, in your own subjective opinion.
Very interesting, I'd really love to see some more informative videos of this nature! I do agree that taste is what really matters at the end. After all, the only thing that determines the taste is the chemical composition of the tea, not the stated origin, be it genuine or fake. I suppose another issue is that fakes, when talking about other products, are usually vastly more inferior than the real deal. A fake is something that is really shoddy, doesn't have the same functionality, and will probably break in a month or two. Perhaps the real "fake" tea then shouldn't even be made of tea leaves at all and should taste absolutely terrible. Which is a far cry from a genuine, decent tasting tea that's merely been misrepresented. It's also true of most other famous teas as well really, teas like Lonjing, Wu Yi oolongs, Jin Jun Mei, Vietnamese oolongs sold as Taiwanese...
We'll do our best to make more videos. Mislabelled Puerh is more accurate and neutral than fake. Fake tea sounds like they would press hay into cakes and sell it on a backstreet.
You raise some really interesting points here. I do hope that one day we can see some regulation and standards put into place, similar to what already exists in the wine industry.
Passing laws and hiring inspectors are easy, but enforcement is difficult. The system has to be self-enforcing to be effective. And it will require changes to the system that will take time and experience to come.
The labelling paradox is that in reality tea heads will likely pay a higher price for tea from remote and unheard of places because unique is a more interesting concept than mainstream.
Thank you for the interesting and thoughtful talk. As a somewhat casual puer drinker, my question is how I can develop a better understanding of the tea if the information is unreliable. For example, for a new wine drinker, a common approach would be to try each of the popular varietals (Pinot Noir, Sangiovese, etc.) and/or major wine-producing regions. But if every time I buy a Bingdao I could be getting something different--without even knowing which one was "real"--how do I begin to figure out what teas match my tastes and what directions to take my explorations?
I think he tried to answer. Try to understand the taste of a general wider area and than corelate. Most probably you will not avoid fakes. I think it is similar to looking for a partner.
Thank you William for the information. The bottom line seems to be: educate yourself as a tea consumer, find a vendor you can trust for her taste and fair pricing, and pay her enough to ensure she stays in business.
Sooo interesting! It really rely with my experience with wine, like tea the region and villages are considered important but the most important thing in the end is what you actually taste not the story you have been told
I live in America, I’m disabled and have no car so it’s hard to get around. So I use Amazon or eBay to get my tea. I have no doubt what I’m get is usually not what it says it is. Also I can’t read Chinese, so the labels are meaningless. Idk how to develop a taste for finer teas. I wish I had some advice for that. But nonetheless I have enjoyed the teas I’ve had, far far more than the tea bags you find everywhere in America.
There is no definite way to learn about tea, only you will know what a fine tea is. You don't go look for good tea, the good tea comes to you. Have a nice journey!
I am not worried about the "1000 year old tree" or what mountain.....To me, the bigger issue is the conditions in which the tea is processed. There is no quality control regarding the source or varietal of leaves ....so one has to assume there is no QC as to sanitary regulations. So how does one source a clean processing facility for pu-erh?
There is no specific norms for hygiene. There can be random inspections, especially in Jingmai. But overall, I would say the lack of hygiene is not a major issue in Yunnan tea production. I have seen some really dirty factories but it's quite rare. Tea is not very sensitive to the presence of microorganisms, you don't need a very high standard like you'd need for meat for example. This is of course something we check when buying tea, if the farmer cannot keep a clean space, I doubt he can make good tea. This is a good indicator of conscientiousness and professionalism.
As long as the industry is thriving and supported by Chinese consumers who are okay with the vast majority of high-end puer being "fake", then it's fine. However, coming from experience with Japanese whisky, at some point the reputation for the tea being fake might precede itself. We're at the point where one of the first things you learn about Japanese whisky is that the vast majority of it is not actually made in Japan. It takes a lot of prerequisite knowledge to find real Japanese whisky, and most people give up after being scammed a few times. This will almost definitely prevent future growth, as we see more Japanese distilleries pop up. However, for puer, do I personally mind that fake tea might keep the rest of the world from discovering the magic of Chinese tea, thereby exploding the price? Of course, I do not...but it would definitely be in the best interest of the tea producers if the industry had a more honest reputation. At least in the west. I actually assume the messiness of the industry (literally and metaphorically) is already what keeps Chinese tea generally from growing in the west. In reality though, I don't think this will ever be "fixed". I view forgeries and fakes in China the same way I view guns in America. It almost doesn't matter if you think it would be better if things could magically be different. The truth is, Pandora's box is opened and there's no going back now. The question is how to navigate in the world you find yourself in.
Why you think so many people cheating? Many tea farmers make tea because they love it ...also to make money. I believe there are more more honest people out there than you purvey. You make many broad statements that I don’t think are accurate. Happy to hear your response and discuss.
People cheat because they have incentives to do so. I believe incentives given by our environment is what pushes us to think and act in a certain way. You are welcome to expose your arguments in favor of a different theory.
"Bingdao (冰島)" has two issues. First, you are correctly point out that many people mislabel Meng Ku 勐庫 tea as Bingdao tea because Bingdao is more famous than Meng Ku (Bingdao is located within Meng Ku). This is equivalent to a pizzeria which locates outside from Manhattan but still advertises their pizza as Manhattan pizza. Second, I believe the official definition of Bingdao has indeed expanded. In this case, it isn't mislabeled, but more like using a new definition to confusing customers who are still thinking of the old definition.
I have bought some teas on aliexpress just for fun. I would not believe a single word as to the origin, age, factory, or tree age. Many of the vendors there say that all of their puer is gushu or dashu or that they have found some secret method of selling gushu for so cheap. In my opinion, from a drinking perspective, it's better to judge a tea by the tea rather than its originative qualities.
Think about it. Even if Bing Dau has a terrible tea, they will never be replaced by a new village, or mountain, because everything is named after Menghai, Bing Dao.etc. There will never be a displacement of the big time growers, as nobody even hears of the other brands. That perpetuates no replacement of the big names!
Indeed, these names are firmly implanted in the consumer's mind, renaming the whole Mengku as Bing Dao area would be easier than changing the mass market perception.
So after listening to you, and believeing everything you say, I must also assume that teas sold to us as Pu erh, are probably not real Pu erh? Yunnan could not supply enough leaves for all the Pu erh that is sold worldwide 😞
I love how he gets super philosophical as the cha hai gets lower and lower. I like this dude. He seems authentic.
A great summary of tea economics in China here! The challenges that the market currently faces are well-explained with info on the growing prices of the famous areas. This video can help consumers better understand the market. I commend you, William, for choosing the transparent route and helping educate through these videos. You've pretty much done the video I was wanting to do myself!
Good that we share the same vision about transparency. Congratulations for your new website, I hope the tea lovers will enjoy your Yiwu leaves!
It's always so refreshing when people in the field point out systemic issues instead of moralising individuals. Thank you for the video and for the work you do!
Yes !
I'm new to Pu Erh and while I love it, I think we should tell beginners to not listen to tea snobs.
Some people can afford a 7542 from the 90s brewed in an antique tetsubin filled with morning dew gathered by fairies - good for them, but let's be real : as a beginner with average palate, my nose and taste buds will not make the difference.
It's a bit the consumer's responsibility to not shoot for the stars if they cannot afford it...
I've never drank any of the best Bordeaux wines, and never will - but when I turned 25, I had probably drank more good Bordeaux wine than many people in their life (I started at 14 ;).
Yet I don't pretend to be an expert on wine - I'm not, by any stretch.
Everywhere I read that 'border teas' are all the same
and not worth it by definition...
I think it says in this video that some are good ? Anyways, right now I'm drinking a 12 years old sheng from Myanmar, it might be 'fake' but it just tastes good enough to me, it is very potent yet mellow enough...
It was dirt cheap, and at the same low price, I bought some very, very disappointing Yunnan shu puerh, more than once !
Very informative and unusually levelheaded video. Thank you William.
People get hysterical over "fake" tea, and the situation is obviously more complicated than simply "bad guys faking tea", something you illustrate in detail here.
I truly appreciate your perspective on this topic! I just wish it was easier to get good tea in the US. I have so much tea stored because I’m constantly seeking to understand tea and each experience forces me to seek more information in order to compare, contrast or validate my findings. Videos like yours definitely make that process less daunting. Thank you!
I"ve liked this video immensely, it's void of the "revelatory" condemnations that usually accompany such discussion, there is a calmer view of the phenomenon. Though I find some of your videos a bit long winded and excessively pedantic, this one is a real treasure. Keep on doing the good work, William!
I appreciate this video VERY much,it is a topic that is all too often avoided,taboo,in fact.
It’s the prestige factor,demanded by the consumer,which lures the suppliers into the fakery.
My only contribution to this conversation is something that will make you laugh,because it is so obvious,and yet it happens so often:
DO NOT buy Puerh off of eBay!
Entering a notable or famous tea on eBay is exactly what the fake market is preying on,and you will get what you pay for.
Anyone want a 7542 that is clearly not,upon tasting?
Yes,I got it on eBay,I learned my lesson!🙄
Tuition tea seems to be a part of the learning experience.
That was a great video. I love the quote "In France they don't want to drink the best wines" really interesting thought
A very transparent look into the issue of tea authenticity. Thank you
experienced tea puer drinkers in Yunnan would know “pay for what you like and can afford” and not go for “branded tea” because they all know these are highly speculative or overhyped. tea traders r just merchants out there to exploit the inexperienced, no different from any other trades or businesses. not only brand can b faked, due to speculation, the incentives r therefore so high that cheats r so common at industry level.
you hit the nail on the head - that is the reality about puer tea.
William, before I lost my wealth and health to cancer I was very travelled and a connoisseur of great wine - especially Bordeaux. And similar to your thoughts, one day I had a blended french red table wine with a coupe of beautiful lamb chops and pomme frittes at a lovely inexpensive alleyway cafe in Paris. The wine was one of the most delicious I had even had. And at that moment I realized that after many, many years of unintended snobbery, it was silly. While I could still drink wine, I grew to love good quality blended wines at inexpensive wines. Ultimately blended, unblended - it does not matter! And the same is true now for tea. The best tasting tea for what I can afford to spend is the only answer! Thank you for such integrity.
I hope for you restoration of health.
Love the video. Many, many people in the world of tea could learn a great deal from you and Scott Wilson. Truth is an illusive creature!.
I'm too new to the Puerh world to connect names with expectations, I just know, if the tea is from a famous area, it's too expensive for me. I am sure in the knowledge, that some good teas from "unknown" areas can be great.
Also of course I've heard so much about fakes, that I take a name to usually mean "in the style of", which is okay with me, never forget the best trees can have a bad year.
I'm not looking for the perfect [area of your choice], I'm looking for teas that I like. What I like can change from one year to the next.
In my view "fakes" do not really matter unless you are a collector and/or reseller. If you are just a drinker then the only thing you need to worry about is if the tea is worth what you paid, in your own subjective opinion.
Very interesting, I'd really love to see some more informative videos of this nature! I do agree that taste is what really matters at the end. After all, the only thing that determines the taste is the chemical composition of the tea, not the stated origin, be it genuine or fake.
I suppose another issue is that fakes, when talking about other products, are usually vastly more inferior than the real deal. A fake is something that is really shoddy, doesn't have the same functionality, and will probably break in a month or two. Perhaps the real "fake" tea then shouldn't even be made of tea leaves at all and should taste absolutely terrible. Which is a far cry from a genuine, decent tasting tea that's merely been misrepresented. It's also true of most other famous teas as well really, teas like Lonjing, Wu Yi oolongs, Jin Jun Mei, Vietnamese oolongs sold as Taiwanese...
We'll do our best to make more videos. Mislabelled Puerh is more accurate and neutral than fake. Fake tea sounds like they would press hay into cakes and sell it on a backstreet.
I’m learning so much from you. Just discovered your videos from a couple of tea pals. Thanks for the free education here. Really excellent content!
Wow.
Now let's find some good,affordable tea.🌻
You raise some really interesting points here. I do hope that one day we can see some regulation and standards put into place, similar to what already exists in the wine industry.
I hope so too, but i think it will take at least another decades for the puerh market to reach maturity.
Passing laws and hiring inspectors are easy, but enforcement is difficult. The system has to be self-enforcing to be effective. And it will require changes to the system that will take time and experience to come.
The only solution is educated and understanding people. When the demand will change, the makers behaviour will change also.
The labelling paradox is that in reality tea heads will likely pay a higher price for tea from remote and unheard of places because unique is a more interesting concept than mainstream.
Thank you for the interesting and thoughtful talk. As a somewhat casual puer drinker, my question is how I can develop a better understanding of the tea if the information is unreliable. For example, for a new wine drinker, a common approach would be to try each of the popular varietals (Pinot Noir, Sangiovese, etc.) and/or major wine-producing regions. But if every time I buy a Bingdao I could be getting something different--without even knowing which one was "real"--how do I begin to figure out what teas match my tastes and what directions to take my explorations?
I think he tried to answer. Try to understand the taste of a general wider area and than corelate. Most probably you will not avoid fakes. I think it is similar to looking for a partner.
Another great video! Thank you for recording these.
This made so much sense. I've wondered about this topic that the information and insights you shared helped me to understand.
Thank you William for the information. The bottom line seems to be: educate yourself as a tea consumer, find a vendor you can trust for her taste and fair pricing, and pay her enough to ensure she stays in business.
Sooo interesting!
It really rely with my experience with wine, like tea the region and villages are considered important but the most important thing in the end is what you actually taste not the story you have been told
I live in America, I’m disabled and have no car so it’s hard to get around. So I use Amazon or eBay to get my tea. I have no doubt what I’m get is usually not what it says it is. Also I can’t read Chinese, so the labels are meaningless. Idk how to develop a taste for finer teas. I wish I had some advice for that. But nonetheless I have enjoyed the teas I’ve had, far far more than the tea bags you find everywhere in America.
There is no definite way to learn about tea, only you will know what a fine tea is. You don't go look for good tea, the good tea comes to you. Have a nice journey!
Very insightful video, thanks!
very useful. Thanks for sharing this.
Another great and informative video. Thank you.
I am not worried about the "1000 year old tree" or what mountain.....To me, the bigger issue is the conditions in which the tea is processed. There is no quality control regarding the source or varietal of leaves ....so one has to assume there is no QC as to sanitary regulations.
So how does one source a clean processing facility for pu-erh?
There is no specific norms for hygiene. There can be random inspections, especially in Jingmai. But overall, I would say the lack of hygiene is not a major issue in Yunnan tea production. I have seen some really dirty factories but it's quite rare.
Tea is not very sensitive to the presence of microorganisms, you don't need a very high standard like you'd need for meat for example.
This is of course something we check when buying tea, if the farmer cannot keep a clean space, I doubt he can make good tea. This is a good indicator of conscientiousness and professionalism.
@@farmerleaf61 thanks for the info...im learning. Shopping for pu-erh is proving to be a very different world than other types.
You have to visit yourself. Othervise you have to trust another people.
As long as the industry is thriving and supported by Chinese consumers who are okay with the vast majority of high-end puer being "fake", then it's fine.
However, coming from experience with Japanese whisky, at some point the reputation for the tea being fake might precede itself. We're at the point where one of the first things you learn about Japanese whisky is that the vast majority of it is not actually made in Japan. It takes a lot of prerequisite knowledge to find real Japanese whisky, and most people give up after being scammed a few times. This will almost definitely prevent future growth, as we see more Japanese distilleries pop up.
However, for puer, do I personally mind that fake tea might keep the rest of the world from discovering the magic of Chinese tea, thereby exploding the price? Of course, I do not...but it would definitely be in the best interest of the tea producers if the industry had a more honest reputation. At least in the west. I actually assume the messiness of the industry (literally and metaphorically) is already what keeps Chinese tea generally from growing in the west.
In reality though, I don't think this will ever be "fixed". I view forgeries and fakes in China the same way I view guns in America. It almost doesn't matter if you think it would be better if things could magically be different. The truth is, Pandora's box is opened and there's no going back now. The question is how to navigate in the world you find yourself in.
Why you think so many people cheating? Many tea farmers make tea because they love it ...also to make money. I believe there are more more honest people out there than you purvey. You make many broad statements that I don’t think are accurate. Happy to hear your response and discuss.
People cheat because they have incentives to do so. I believe incentives given by our environment is what pushes us to think and act in a certain way. You are welcome to expose your arguments in favor of a different theory.
"Bingdao (冰島)" has two issues. First, you are correctly point out that many people mislabel Meng Ku 勐庫 tea as Bingdao tea because Bingdao is more famous than Meng Ku (Bingdao is located within Meng Ku). This is equivalent to a pizzeria which locates outside from Manhattan but still advertises their pizza as Manhattan pizza. Second, I believe the official definition of Bingdao has indeed expanded. In this case, it isn't mislabeled, but more like using a new definition to confusing customers who are still thinking of the old definition.
People love being lied to sometimes. But I would always like to know the origin of me teas.
Puer tea are genuine. Small factory may fake labels. Try tea to buy. As long tea is good to drink is the same genuine content.
Excellent video
another good reason to just go on smell i would have to look to even know where yunan is , i just want a nice cuppa,
does this apply to teas on aliexpress ?or are there teas just fake and not healty?can you make a video of pu erh tea on aliexpress?
I have bought some teas on aliexpress just for fun. I would not believe a single word as to the origin, age, factory, or tree age. Many of the vendors there say that all of their puer is gushu or dashu or that they have found some secret method of selling gushu for so cheap. In my opinion, from a drinking perspective, it's better to judge a tea by the tea rather than its originative qualities.
I'm looking forward to tea blockchain transaction
Think about it. Even if Bing Dau has a terrible tea, they will never be replaced by a new village, or mountain, because everything is named after Menghai, Bing Dao.etc. There will never be a displacement of the big time growers, as nobody even hears of the other brands. That perpetuates no replacement of the big names!
Indeed, these names are firmly implanted in the consumer's mind, renaming the whole Mengku as Bing Dao area would be easier than changing the mass market perception.
Excellent video. Thank you.
What's the tea cake on the right top corner with the lady?
But how can you learn if you do not know what the origin is?
Try, and try, and learn. Like with everything else.
I like that you don't iron your shirt
Anyone had experience or rating for Yunan Sourcing?
Does not worth my money.
Fake Pu Erh tea is a painful question.🥺
So after listening to you, and believeing everything you say, I must also assume that teas sold to us as Pu erh, are probably not real Pu erh? Yunnan could not supply enough leaves for all the Pu erh that is sold worldwide 😞
There is plenty of Puerh tea produced, but the majority of them is low quality. Getting good ones can be more of a challenge.
The delusional fantasy of pursuing perfection. There is much wisdom here, Farmer Leaf, thank you. 🙏🫖🦋
Great video. Want more.