If people want an example of bad live service updates, Warcraft 3 put out a Remastered Edition that was not only way worse but also downloaded itself over the original Warcraft 3. So even if you owned the original for 20 years you are now forced to use the crappy new one.
As someone who still plays Warcraft 3, yeah it really sucks, since the game is technically worse to play compared to 10 years ago. There is Eurobattlenet which allows online play of older wc3 which is nice
there are workarounds but it needs a bit of work (if you have a physical version or don't mind skull'n'bones-ing because f* Blizzard) and I don't know if it works for multi
Which is a whole Mount Everest pile of bullshit, and is no better then stealing. They took away a perfectly good game that you paid with your hard earned money(not that they care) and replaced it with a game that is inferior in basically every way
Minecraft is a perfect example of how I think games should handle updates and incremental changes. They continue to distribute the older versions. If I download the newest Minecraft update and I don't like it, I can just revert to how it was with the click of a button. I think that ought to be the standard.
this made me realise just how cool it is that minecraft does that. it seems totally unnecessary and i dont really know many other games that do it, but it is very cool and would be a perfect step in the right direction for the solution to this problem
some steam games have older versions in their "betas" section in the properties menu, a lot of games don't though - probably up to the publisher/developers
What's interesting is comparing the Mojang built version of Minecraft to the post-Microsoft mobile and Windows Store versions. The Java version is just the game. The Bedrock version (the mobile and Windows Store versions, which are written in C++) is all about selling skins, prefab worlds, and new game modes. The two are quite literally two different games and could easily be the subject of a semester long computer science class in the differences between writing games as a passion and writing games as a commercial endeavor.
Minecraft and the Sonic the Hedgehog series are perfect examples of how consumer and creator rights should be used (creators should not be at the mercy of the top brass, iirc). I thought this video was going to be an unrelated tangent about the customer always being right, but the banana analogy surprisingly works in a rather fragile gaming industry. We had two monumental disasters in one year, Gollum and Skull Island, much like another food-related analogy, preserving beef with salt when it comes to brand loyalty, which is also self-destructive to an industry. That ain't right. @@brandoncarter3042
"I am OSHA trained, I look for the accidents before they happen" just makes me think of my late dad, who did that kind of thing at his job before he passed. He was shocked at how little people think about the danger of a situation they're going into, and how *salty* they get when you say "No, you can't just ride a forklift up 20 feet with no harness, what's wrong with you?!"
As someone who worked a lot of retail and has pretty bad ADHD, I do spend a bit of time just watching for things to happen, and its always the things you expect and are obvious. I loved the one morning that a manager was watching every one walk in past a big puddle and when we started she berated us for not stopping to clean up the big puddle cause someone could have slipped in it. I just stood there gobsmacked. You were there and you were on the clock, what if one of us had slipped in it. People wont fix a problem till its a problem for them.
I was a safety officer in a hospital. I'd like to say half of our safety procedures were rather burdensome, so people got creative. Can't touch the door handle with bare hands? Grab a paper towel instead of putting on gloves.
I drive a forklift and even to this day I'm shocked at people's lack of self preservation or lack of thought about why walking under a forklift lifting a 1200kg pallet is a bad idea.
We have a sausage maker at my work. It's older than I am, heavy as hell, and reminds me of old tractors. A guy lost a few inches of finger because he was literally ramming his hand into the intake instead of using the proper accessory to push the meat in. Moron really thought his squishy human meat-digits were gonna beat a steel engine literally designed to turn meat into paste. We also have big deli slicers. There's a warning sign next to it that says *KNIFE WILL CUT* in three-inch-high letters because apparently the fact that when this device encounters bone it just makes a nasty little *_ching_* noise as it shears right the @#*( through it isn't enough. Tell ya what, the folks that need the sign ain't #$)(%$ reading it.
Single player games, with shoe horned multiplayer elements are a great source of concern. The way Ubisoft have delisted entire single player games because the online components were shut down is horrible. We need protections against this.
Some time ago, the retailer JCPenney decided to do away with the whole "set prices ridiculously high and then always have a 'sale'" thing, and instead shifted to a "everyday low price" policy, thinking that shoppers would appreciate the honesty. Instead, _they nearly went out of business._ It turned out that their customers _wanted_ to be fooled, and craved the notion that they were "getting a steal" even though they knew that the "sale" prices were just normal prices in disguise. We need consumer protection laws to protect buyers from shady sellers. But how do we protect buyers from themselves?
It is interesting to mention that, because on the gaming space we do have one successful developer that rarely if ever discounts their games, Nintendo. But it was also Nintendo the one that make the Mario 3D collection limited time to sell more, and it probably worked. In conversations like this I always prefer to look at ways the customer can change, because going straight for regulating feels like delaying the inevitable.
@@AfutureV It's also Nintendo, known for selling the same game every year like if it was a FIFA clone and still being the most profitable franchise EVER.
Shit I was wondering why they were still around (and I do shop at them). Apparently they've filed for bankruptcy in 2020, and even before then was going through so much since the mid 2000s. Someone else owns them now.
@@AfutureVExcept the customer probably won't change, as Government's want us to be stupid. Easier to control us that way. Just look at the modern education system if you don't believe me.
Frost's "back in my day" bit about game sales is exactly how I still treat games. Unless it's an already reasonably priced indie title im not getting out of bed for anything less than 50% off. Even then it usually takes ~70% to get me to actually buy it.
Same. Even at a substantial discount I'll sit on it for a while just to see how badly I want the game. I've paid full price for a few big games, but those are FromSoftware titles and they're about the only developer I trust not to royally miss the mark.
To me, there’s simply too many games I’m interested to buy all at release. I’ll buy the ones I’m REALLY excited at/near launch, but the rest? Wishlist, continue with what I’m currently playing, and then be reminded when a sale notifies me. Then I look at the sales history and if it’s something that goes on sale every month, I’ll likely pass (currently have a backlog) until I have the time. If it’s a rare deal, I’ll bite. Like Hyrule Warriors DLC going on sale. Was planning on getting it eventually, but after years of no deals, might as well get it because it’s unlikely to go lower or happen again soon. The only downside is rarity. With physical games, you have to be careful you don’t wait TOO long and it goes out of print, only to raise the price again. I waited too long on the Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. $40 is fine, but I wasn’t in a rush. Then when I randomly searched it up again some time later… few were selling it and it was full price or more. Luckily PlayAsia got some copies about a week after that, but even some games from big publishers aren’t always safe. And at that point it was only 1.5 years after release. It doesn’t always take long to go out of print, and you’ll never know which ones will or won’t.
Gabe Newell famously stated that piracy was a service problem. That people would pay for games if they could do so in a fashion that was convenient. The value proposition and convenience at the time was online delivery, quick updates, ease of use, etc. That's shifted in the years since. Now that digital delivery and "nu-consumerism" has "altered the deal" as it were, we now have to expect that expectations are also altered. This video is correct in that most gamers aren't making informed decisions. They're making impulse buys. The longer this continues, the more damage it does to the entire industry. Already the quality of games has plunged in the last 10 years. Predominantly due to the rise of GAAS, Early Access and other such shennanigans. I'm all for funding small indies, but why does Square Enix need a system like that? Isn't it their job to finance games development and not to beg customers to pay for it for them? Regulating this space should be a no-brainer. However, something tells me that things like this are so far down the list of priorities for our civilization as to be laughable. I do not say this in jest, it's incredibly saddening that even our entertainment as reached such an abysmal state.
Why should it be regulated when more people than ever are playing games? I prefer the old ways too, but if more people accept this way of things, who am I to impose my way through regulations?
It is a case of Market Failure in my opinion, which means regulation is the right thing to do. Specifically, the market failure of Information Assymetry. @@AfutureV
@@AfutureV Why should we regulate labor laws when so many people are working?! Even the kids are getting into the action! It's great for the economy! Just because people are engaging in this industry doesn't mean that you don't need protections from bad behavior, regulations ensure a level playing field and that the power disparity doesn't shift too far in any one direction. It's not the boogey man that you seem to think it is.
@@xethier False analogy, child labour (and work in general) was not an activity children willingly engaged in for fun, unlike video games. Regulations needed to be put in place because children could not do anything to change the situation. With games, customers can choose to play or not Any game, so there is a perfect playing field. If it is not, tell me exactly in what way is any gamer obligated to play any game?
I know it's obvious from its title, but I love watching Cold Take because it feels so refreshingly close to the way average people (read: I) interact with video games and the surrounding culture. I'm a proponent of games as art and can get sniffy with the best of them, but its involvement in my life ends at hobby. This series dips my toes into topics and gives me food for thought without feeling so entrenched in gaming as to be impenetrable; it's closer to a conversation than a dissertation.
The whole "You're buying a license to play that can be revoked at any time for any reason" thing is a huge problem. If I paid hard money for your game and then you take it away, you owe me my money back.
@@earthdog7900 I know, but that doesn't make it right. Imagine you bought a Chrono Trigger cartridge to play on your SNES, and then Nintendo decided they didn't want you playing it, so they physically took it from you.
It’s semi-correct and semi-wrong. Hoeg Law explained it to a youtuber through a discussion (forget the channel name). A “license” doesn’t mean they can steal your physical copy because “they own the rights”. All it means by “license” is that you own an _instance_ of a product, and can’t say, scrape the software and use it in your own products. Because you only bought the license to use it as a product, not the _rights_ to the assets/data within it. Of course you’re screwed with digital. Too many companies involved where they might not “remove” your purchase, but there’s tons of ways of making it inoperable (shutting down servers, banning/deleting your account, and in very rare cases, both remove it from the store and prevent you from redownloading, but I think that’s only happened with demos, idk if it’s happened with one’s with free-to-play games where you can invest money, but maybe a few).
@@mrshmuga9 Removing a free to play game that one could invest money in? Yes, an example of that is "Loadout Campaign Beta". Instance of removing a game from the store? Sort of; Duke Nukem: 3D Megaton Edition would be an example of that (along with "Devotion", however that was removed by China because it made fun of Xi).
I admit that I had to watch this a second time because I spent the first time watching the Dole commercial and the packing/shipping process. Edit: I'm up to 4 times due to distractions and the banana packing process.
governemnts should make it to where when you purchase a digital item you actually own that item, and if the contents of said digital item has plans to change significantly in the future (example: live service games) they must disclose that in giant unmissable text that you have to read before being allowed to press the purchase button. the lack of any significant consumer protection for digital goods is insane
Alternatively, a game CANNOT update without your explicit consent. There are so many games that literally force you to update, need to have constant online access even if they're singeplayer, etc. Example: this is why I never bought another Rockstar game after GTA V. I only played singleplayer, but the game forces you to install bloatware to monitor whether you're online, and doesn't let you play if you haven't been online for too long. And guess what happens if you go online. The game updates. 1. No forced updates. 2. The ability to downgrade a game. 3. No mandatory online access. This things should be put into law.
It would already be a valid lawsuit for corps to do those things if it wasn't explicitly stated in the End User License Agreement that you signed before playing. By signing those you are acknowledging that you are basically renting time on their servers while those servers are active, and that you are not owed anything if those servers eventually go away.
And what would the consequences be if a the devs came and made major changes in the future that they hadn't planned for at the time? What would even qualify as a significant change? People buying live service games wouldn't get much benefit from it because constant change is the core premise of live service products, the warning is implicit in the product itself.
@@jammyweegit1144 I may be wrong but I've on more than one occasion heard consistently that no court in the world will respect EULA because of the explicit expectation societally that no one reads them. So it seems more to come along that people expect because it is written that they shouldn't even try to fight it sometimes.
I really like this guy and his imaginary cigar he's chomping on. I feel like a dame with mile long legs walking into his office trying to learn the score everytime he makes a video.
This is why piracy will never go away, and why it shouldn't. It's not bad enough that a game can change completely from the state you originally purchased it in. If you bought a license to keep a banana, ate some of it, and the company that makes and distributes the banana goes out of business or decides not to support bananas anymore, the remainder of the item you already paid for disappears from reality, and you have no recourse. Piracy/game preservation is essential to maintaining access to games not just in perpetuity, but in the state they were accepted at the time when the purchase (or presumed purchase) is agreed to have taken place.
the OSHA comparison is pretty apt because humans will take convenience over safety any day The good thing is when piracy becomes REALLY more convenient (instead of mostly now) than a legitimate buy because of shady business practices (denuvo, having to create 36 accounts with passwords to enter etc.), the sales will drop
Customers: people who buy a product that they actually want and care about, plus they don't like being scammed Consumers: mindless people who are pleased just by getting something new, even if that "new" product is exactly the same they already bought 5 times, but it has a new paint job.
@@SimuLordcustomers are the consumers and stockholders are the customers. But the stockholders only care about short term growth, the value of the stock in a couple years be damned. Or so upper management in AAA seems to work.
im reminded of the fact that Magicka. A game i really like. Had a working multiplayer but the final update of that game made it super unstable. so if you want to play this very fun game with your friends( the correct way to play it) you have to revert it to a previous update.
I do think that there needs to be a Digital Consumer Rights act of some kind that gives customers far more ownership of a digital good, since _everything_ will be digital at some point. If you buy a book or a movie, you should be able to access that book or movie on any platform available, and if the original place you got it shut down, they should be legally required to make that product available elsewhere in perpetuity.
But "perpetuity" doesn't make money. And it's all about making money above all else. It would be nice to access a digital purchase forever, but to them, that's "leaving money on the table".
But "perpetuity" doesn't make money. And it's all about making money above all else. It would be nice to access a digital purchase forever, but to them, that's "leaving money on the table".
@@DefendYoungstown Oh, I agree that there are plenty of reasons they would not _want_ to, I'm saying that the law should force their hand, _requiring_ that they do so, if they want to engage in that sort of product at all.
This places a much higher and unreasonable standard on digital goods over physical ones. If you buy a movie on VHS, there is no expectation of ownership of it also in DVD and Blu-ray. Not to mention perpetuity, tapes degrade over time.
@@AfutureV I suppose there's some reasonable discussion on the limitations, I agree that it would not make sense to require them to actively port a game from one platform to another, but I do think that in cases where the game *would* play just fine, they should be required to keep it available. If people are able to download the product to their own hardware, then so long as they can access that product indefinitely, then that's fine. But if the product can only exist in a cloud space, or has to check in to a home server every time it runs, then they have to make sure that this will never stop working.
As someone who sells junk toys to collectors so they can use them for parts, it's not a crime to sell crap. It's a crime to sell crap and claim it's gold.
Every Cold Take I've watched so far, I end up agreeing with.🤯 So Frost and I must have a lot of similar thoughts when it comes to this kind of stuff, which is comforting knowing I'm not the only one noticing these things😄💖😊
Requiring better disclosure on how a game might be changed over time is a good step. At that point, consumers are made more aware and it ALSO provides a platform for different developers to differentiate themselves with pledges of what they would and wouldn't change about their game post-launch. Of course, once it's in writing, they can be held to it legally, so who knows if any dev would want to commit.
On one hand, Cyberpunk drastically improved the gameplay to match the quality of the story. on the other, Skullgirls removed a bunch of content paid for via kickstarter with no replacement and censored assets after specifically promising back then to never do so again because ESG. certainly goes both ways.
To your point, I feel like Cyberpunk's redemption was facilitated a lot by its strong narrative. For all the bugs and missing gameplay features, the story was the one thing that never had to be patched. It's what made me come away with very positive feelings after finishing it for the first time despite all of its flaws. Skullgirls is soured by having the gameplay and character design as the sole selling points, so messing with those is messing with its core rather than ancillary bits.
Personal take since this is close to home for me: I actually really enjoyed No Man's Sky circa 1.10 "Foundation" for what it was, and would really like to play it again. It feels unsettling that *that* game now only exists in my memory.
It's occured to me a few times we could really use preservation of old versions. Like a Wayback Machine for games. It's such a small thing but sometimes someone might just want to know what an old version of a game was like, or want to relive their memories of the version they first played. There's so much potential and interesting history we lose with the constant march to new patches.
I feel the exact same about Fallout76. For all its well deserved backlash, I enjoyed the game before actual NPCs were added. It gave off a completely different vibe to now.
USA is a "third-world" nation in many respects: Worker's rights Consumer Protection Healthcare availability and affordability Housing availability and affordability Transportation availability and affordability Education quality and affordability "Justice" System I'm sure there are plenty more, but that's just what i can list off the top of my head in 30 seconds.
In the US, because our news and conversations are mostly pointed inward, we don't find out how much better other countries' protections are until someone from that country points it out. And my Jedi: Survivor game is still unplayable nor refundable.
'Murica! I just patiently wait for the day that Americans figure out how awful our healthcare system is compared to every other first world country and decide to do something about it
The point at 6 minutes that they'll grant you a full refund and the implication that it's because people prefer hands on testing is misleading I feel. It's not done out of the goodness of their hearts to help consumers, in fact it's only because laws from places like the EU and Australia forced them to do it after they were sued :P (Note, not to say you're intentionally misleading of course - just the phrasing's awkward :P)
Now we need the EU to sue other companies… Sony won’t give you a refund after you _start_ downloading a game… what the heck is that? You wouldn’t even know if it’s broken. Also, if you buy it through your console (instead of browser) I’m pretty sure it automatically starts downloading anyway. So you’d never be eligible for a refund.
Fallout 4 used to run quite happily on my rig, barring the odd bethesda glitch. Last time I loaded it up, it hard crashed to desktop any time I went near Boston. Now, I'm not saying the whole paid mods thing (which I refuse to engage with) are responsible, but I'm not not saying that.
Step one would be to stop labelling customers as consumers. A consumer is like a mindless cow, sitting in its pen with it's greasy harvester-maw agape both waiting and demanding more cud be shoveled down it's gullet. Quality doesn't matter, just quantity, it wants cud and it wants cud NOW. A customer is an intelligent, discerning individual that takes their purchasing habits into consideration of others and themselves. A customer is a person.
As soon as you were bringing up how live service can make a great game worse, I just knew Overwatch would get mentioned. :( At least Blizzard gave me a reason to move onto other games, and I’ll always have the memories of the good Overwatch.
Hearing this it make me feel like even if we were fully formed in the way you are asking Frost companies would still find a gray area to mess with us. Nice video as it was greatly educational.
Portal plays as it did all those years ago, but by default there are now radios in every room playing music on the pc version if you've ever completed it, which really mess with the whole vibe unless you disable them.
All paradox games you can revert back to any given patch very simply and easily, al the files are hosted on whatever service platform they use - so e.g. on steam they are accessible in the betas list. A lot of other frequently patched games that aren't online multiplayer experiences have similar capabilities - e.g. kerbal space program and minecraft both have revert options.
I love by he inclusion of the Pokémon game corner that they removed and have never put back in. The game corner could be a great addition back to games.
Speaking of consent. You are my second video that I am allowed to watch today thanks to UA-cam somehow being able to check what browser's extensions and deciding "no no no, you better watch shity ads if you want to watch videos!". Wonder what will replace UA-cam...
I don't know what bothers me more: 1. That capitalism only leaves the choice of participating in the game purchase process or not. 2. That our society has a better structured plan and place for those harvested bananas than for me.
Reminds me of when Rockstar cut some radio music from GTA digital copies. The game wasn't made better by that, it happened because of licensing, but now a lot of people have less game than when they bought it.
About a year or two ago I downloaded a mobile game and played it offline for about 3-4 weeks having much fun with the game even though the progress started to slow down as I was reaching later parts of the game, I updated my app hoping to get some quality of life improvements because the game was brand new and had a whole month of development time, but after I updated the app it was an entirely different game more generic and watered down and streamlined for micro transactions, I guess they got a lot of hate for the game being too boring at 1.0 but I liked that gameplay and they did a 180 and made the game too complicated by chopping up all the stats into tiny pieces and then offering an endless slog of randomly generated items that can boost those tiny stats by small amounts so now you need to second guess every decision in the game and it completely ruined the game for me
I feel that. About ten years ago, I used to play the free app version of the Sims. I was good at hoarding resources and streamlining the daily goals. I had millions of sim money and the currency used to complete actions faster and other things. Then they started adding the different ages to the game which lead into forced aging of characters until they died and you had replace them. You could spend the currency to temporarily paused the aging. And keep spending and spending to keep your favorite Sims alive or pay to get new ones. It burns through my currency like a wildfire. It was forcing me towards micro transactions. So I just deleted the game instead.
Like how he mentioned Overwatch as an example of a game made worse by updates. I probably played more OW than anything else from like 2018 til they turned it into OW2, and since then I can't even be bothered to touch it. No real reason why they couldn't have made OW2 a standalone game (like a real sequel) instead of completely replacing the "first" one other than Blizzard-Activision's greed.
I work in financial compliance and it astounds me what the gaming industry gets away with. Any other product/service companies would get closed down overnight for their shady business practices, but because it's a "game" and the regulation industry is dominated by older generation workers, the regulators don't understand it, and nothing gets done.
The banana B-roll was interesting, and I found myself watching it rather than just listening and doing something else. It also reminded me of Tropico 5’s ‘strategic banana reserves.’
Whenever I think of those marketing schemes, I've gotta remember xkcd 641, just a shelve of virtually identical cereals, just one exclaims it's asbestos free.
I had to stop the video for a minute to stop giggling at "what it was like to chew 5 gum". Top-notch writing as always. Personally, one thing I've long thought is that copyrighted media should have to have archives made of every version offered, and allow people to access them for free at the conclusion of the term of copyright, to prevent companies from erasing history to avoid competing with themselves. Maybe they should also have to make the archived versions available to people who have bought the product, so if they don't like the directions it's taken they can set up a server and play how they want.
This is such an important topic that warrants discussion. Because what do we do with games like Diablo 4, which after launch went grind-tastic to compensate for a lack of content. Is it fair to ask for a full refund? I'd say yes, because too often decisions made by these companies aren't for our benefit. Imagine if you cancelled your Netflix subscription because they cancelled the show you like and they had to refund your last two months payment? They'd think twice about their current model of announcing shows to drum up subscribers only to cancel it.
It's very Orwellian to only own a licence to play and not the game itself, like how screwed we would be if some super-corp or government decided to shut down the internet.
France (and I'm assuming most of the EU) has some elements of response to digital customers rights. Here what we buy from an established reseller/store has to conform to what is described, and normal/reasonable for such a product or service. So if a product advertise A, is described as B on the store page, has the manufacturer mention C in some PR, and is sold as D by the store, and the manual talks about the E capability, the product HAS TO have A, B, C, D and E. If not, the customer has two years after purchase to realize this, and ask the reseller to either have it fix, or refund it. No negotiation or judicial pursuit or anything, it's a very fast and clear liability from the reseller. They sell something, they are responsible and liable for that something. It doesn't replace commercial warranties, false advertising, fraud, or anything, it's just another first layer of defense that's totally free, and very simple to understand. And since this isn't the US, you can't sign away your rights in a contract, the law takes precedence over any EULA or sales contracts or terms of service. That's all from a general EU law. Now, the twist is, for a few years now in France (and I'm assuming at least other EU members), this also apply to digital products, including videogames. So it doesn't protect against bad business practices that were advertised, but it does protect against servers shutting down too early for example, or features or capabilities going away or being "vaulted down" (cough, cough), and many other aspects. And is easier to get a refund if there was "creative" advertising or PR, etc. And since it's against the reseller (which later can take it up to the manufacturer, or here the game publisher), it's simpler and more direct for the customer. I don't know of anyone who tried to do this with Steam or GOG, and it's not widely known, but it's certainly an interesting protection that should make some waves the first time this goes into mainstream gaming medias.
Steam's refund policy, like the rest of the industry, came as a reaction to Electronic Arts. Electronic Arts started offering refunds in an effort to regain credibility after Sim City. Early access had noting to do with it.
One caveat/correction: the "you bought a license not the game" is a bit of misinformation spread by published. This idea has been debunked several times.
To add (because it’s important to correct what’s wrong)… you own an _instance/copy_ of that software. But you don’t own the _legal rights_ to redistribute it or use the assets/materials contained on that disc to use in your own works, just you have access to the file. It would be like saying you own a photograph of a landscape because you were able to download the file off Google Images.
Australian consumer law is thankfully a lot more robust. Products can't be put up for sale near their initial release, a purchase of a product gives you ownership and not a licence to use, you're entitled to a functional product, and the consumer has the full right to modify and repair. Whether those laws are enforced is another issue.
The statement at 5:08 is not true. It has been established by multiple courts that the copy of a game tied to your account is a unique item that you cannot be deprived of without valid reason.
It should be a digital-consumer protection law that any software that the consumer pays any amount of money for, has to provide a fully-featured mode that can be used/played without any time limitations and additional requirements like an internet connection or activation. This ensures that if you pay for a digital product, you get to OWN your copy of that product, usable as long as you keep it safely stored somewhere.
I often worry I take the wrong thing away from some videos. This might be one of those occasions as I can't help wondering who is chasing spiders around with a banana
It is quite unfortunate that for pretty much all live service games, it is no longer possible to go back and play those games as they were at release (officially). Overwatch itself is a good example as plenty of people who play Overwatch 2 now will never be able to experience what the game was like back in 2016 when it initially became a cultural phenomenon. I still have the physical box I bought at release but I cannot go back to experience that version of the game
Modern games have learned a valuable lesson from older industries - ambiguity always benefits the one able to set the terms. Even things as obviously unenforceable as EULAs have stayed up for decades simply because they ensure they never end up getting a ruling against them in court, and in the meantime they get a portion of the benefits since they can treat their fake rules as real until proven otherwise.
I think it's easy to ignore if you like the changes, so it's worth asking what if you didn't. You see this on any game that goes the "living" route: each time a patch comes around, an expansion is discussed, etc... these are all the wrong changes and focus should be elsewhere. It launches and these changes are the worst the game has ever been and it's driven people off. Personally I mind it when we see shit like Overwatch and Diablo 2: but if you think Factorio had a heyday, a best patch or version, you can access all of them still. You can still play the version of Factorio that you liked and brought you the joy and memories you want and I think that's a-ok. That's no idle choice, that's a game where the motto is "The factory must grow" and yet as more discussions on the impending expansion crop up, you see doomsayers decry it. The Factorio, it seems, must not. And yet, this is a developer who has painstakingly preserved it's history. Minecraft is another example: if you think the latest updates have set it off, you can roll back to an earlier version. A label, I think, is warranted indeed. As it is more common that the newest version will supplant the older one and I suppose it is fair to say if you change someone's banana they ought to have a say in it. Especially if they happen to be in the middle of eating it.
Steams Refund came mostly because it became law in the EU that digital purchases need to have a refund policy of at least two weeks. Also not true about licenses. They are perpetual if bought singular, subscriptions are exempt. Since software is considered a "good", the license CANNOT be revoked by the creator if you bought it once. Unless you illegaly share the game, sell the game etc. It's HIGHLY illegal in the EU to make a software not useable after the fact and is subject to heavy fines and a full refund of the original price if, for example, the software is made unusable by the company shutting down servers. Know your rights.
With early access it's pretty standard that you should expect the game to change (if it ever actually leaves early access) and that that change could improve, or remove features you enjoyed. This is made a fine compromise by it being somewhat cheaper than the " finished" version and encourages supporting the Devs to finalise their ideas. What I hate is the destiny 2 model of, expansions that just don't exist anymore. And progress amounting to nothing but a waste of time, I had to walk away from the game entirely because things I paid for just aren't there, and with no way to play it ever again even if I have the physical media. Its for that reason I won't even entertain a live service game anymore.
Yeah. And some people wonder why I still play my old SNES carts. Most of the time I just want a game that's always what it appears to be, runs consistently, and doesn't try to sell me anything. Plus the music on that system slaps.
Imagine buying a car where you are able to use the seat heater and other things for free, only for there to be an update to the software later where you have to accept the new conditions to be able to use the product any further, and it makes some of the cars features now cost extra for premium every month.
Aside from the "it's just a license" bait-and-switch, the damn things are also just massively overpriced now and come with eula terms that basically grant full permission to search your computer and track/datamine EVERYTHING That's why you straight up cannot play a paradox game anymore. It doesn't matter if the game is well-made (it isn't), it doesn't matter wether it would be a fun game to play, because it's just not even remotely worth the cost in patience, data, and money. The market has gone insane and desperate for ever-bolder scams and they are pushing their luck past what even the uninformed consumer will tolerate.
Starbound was a fun Terraria-like game that I was just starting to get into when they updated it to add multiplayer. They rewrote the game to be a server-client model to support this, however they also ran the single player game through the same server-client model. This added massive amounts of lag to the single player game, making it utterly impossible to enjoy anymore. They effectively killed their own game. There was no way to undo the update or get my money back. I felt like a kid who had just bought an icecream only to have the store owner slap it out of my hand and refuse to give my money back.
And they completely changed how the game played! I bought it early but then only played sporadically but at first the conceit was that some calamity visited your homeworld regardless of your origin and you were living and exploring "after the end". Then when I came back it was almost a level-based stucture with a generic "happy federation" starting point. The final game didn't appear to be bad (I did not play it enough to judge either way), but it wasn't what I signed up for!
If people want an example of bad live service updates, Warcraft 3 put out a Remastered Edition that was not only way worse but also downloaded itself over the original Warcraft 3. So even if you owned the original for 20 years you are now forced to use the crappy new one.
As someone who still plays Warcraft 3, yeah it really sucks, since the game is technically worse to play compared to 10 years ago. There is Eurobattlenet which allows online play of older wc3 which is nice
there are workarounds but it needs a bit of work (if you have a physical version or don't mind skull'n'bones-ing because f* Blizzard) and I don't know if it works for multi
Which is a whole Mount Everest pile of bullshit, and is no better then stealing. They took away a perfectly good game that you paid with your hard earned money(not that they care) and replaced it with a game that is inferior in basically every way
Yeah that's a great example that should actually be illegal. Blizzard are such a shit tier company and I don't understand how they're in business.
Wow
Minecraft is a perfect example of how I think games should handle updates and incremental changes. They continue to distribute the older versions. If I download the newest Minecraft update and I don't like it, I can just revert to how it was with the click of a button. I think that ought to be the standard.
this made me realise just how cool it is that minecraft does that. it seems totally unnecessary and i dont really know many other games that do it, but it is very cool and would be a perfect step in the right direction for the solution to this problem
I think this is a pretty good first step.
some steam games have older versions in their "betas" section in the properties menu, a lot of games don't though - probably up to the publisher/developers
What's interesting is comparing the Mojang built version of Minecraft to the post-Microsoft mobile and Windows Store versions.
The Java version is just the game. The Bedrock version (the mobile and Windows Store versions, which are written in C++) is all about selling skins, prefab worlds, and new game modes. The two are quite literally two different games and could easily be the subject of a semester long computer science class in the differences between writing games as a passion and writing games as a commercial endeavor.
Minecraft and the Sonic the Hedgehog series are perfect examples of how consumer and creator rights should be used (creators should not be at the mercy of the top brass, iirc). I thought this video was going to be an unrelated tangent about the customer always being right, but the banana analogy surprisingly works in a rather fragile gaming industry. We had two monumental disasters in one year, Gollum and Skull Island, much like another food-related analogy, preserving beef with salt when it comes to brand loyalty, which is also self-destructive to an industry. That ain't right. @@brandoncarter3042
"I am OSHA trained, I look for the accidents before they happen" just makes me think of my late dad, who did that kind of thing at his job before he passed.
He was shocked at how little people think about the danger of a situation they're going into, and how *salty* they get when you say "No, you can't just ride a forklift up 20 feet with no harness, what's wrong with you?!"
As someone who worked a lot of retail and has pretty bad ADHD, I do spend a bit of time just watching for things to happen, and its always the things you expect and are obvious. I loved the one morning that a manager was watching every one walk in past a big puddle and when we started she berated us for not stopping to clean up the big puddle cause someone could have slipped in it. I just stood there gobsmacked. You were there and you were on the clock, what if one of us had slipped in it. People wont fix a problem till its a problem for them.
I was a safety officer in a hospital. I'd like to say half of our safety procedures were rather burdensome, so people got creative. Can't touch the door handle with bare hands? Grab a paper towel instead of putting on gloves.
I drive a forklift and even to this day I'm shocked at people's lack of self preservation or lack of thought about why walking under a forklift lifting a 1200kg pallet is a bad idea.
We have a sausage maker at my work. It's older than I am, heavy as hell, and reminds me of old tractors. A guy lost a few inches of finger because he was literally ramming his hand into the intake instead of using the proper accessory to push the meat in. Moron really thought his squishy human meat-digits were gonna beat a steel engine literally designed to turn meat into paste.
We also have big deli slicers. There's a warning sign next to it that says *KNIFE WILL CUT* in three-inch-high letters because apparently the fact that when this device encounters bone it just makes a nasty little *_ching_* noise as it shears right the @#*( through it isn't enough. Tell ya what, the folks that need the sign ain't #$)(%$ reading it.
Single player games, with shoe horned multiplayer elements are a great source of concern. The way Ubisoft have delisted entire single player games because the online components were shut down is horrible. We need protections against this.
Conversely, totally offline games that require me to be online.
All of the B roll of banana plants in this episode made my day, thanks Frost
It was pretty neat!
It reminded me of the montages in breaking bad for some reason
@@westfords Yeah same kind of factory repetitive movements
Some time ago, the retailer JCPenney decided to do away with the whole "set prices ridiculously high and then always have a 'sale'" thing, and instead shifted to a "everyday low price" policy, thinking that shoppers would appreciate the honesty. Instead, _they nearly went out of business._ It turned out that their customers _wanted_ to be fooled, and craved the notion that they were "getting a steal" even though they knew that the "sale" prices were just normal prices in disguise.
We need consumer protection laws to protect buyers from shady sellers. But how do we protect buyers from themselves?
It is interesting to mention that, because on the gaming space we do have one successful developer that rarely if ever discounts their games, Nintendo.
But it was also Nintendo the one that make the Mario 3D collection limited time to sell more, and it probably worked.
In conversations like this I always prefer to look at ways the customer can change, because going straight for regulating feels like delaying the inevitable.
@@AfutureV It's also Nintendo, known for selling the same game every year like if it was a FIFA clone and still being the most profitable franchise EVER.
Shit I was wondering why they were still around (and I do shop at them). Apparently they've filed for bankruptcy in 2020, and even before then was going through so much since the mid 2000s. Someone else owns them now.
Then they still deserve to lose if that’s what customers want tbh
@@AfutureVExcept the customer probably won't change, as Government's want us to be stupid. Easier to control us that way. Just look at the modern education system if you don't believe me.
Frost's "back in my day" bit about game sales is exactly how I still treat games. Unless it's an already reasonably priced indie title im not getting out of bed for anything less than 50% off. Even then it usually takes ~70% to get me to actually buy it.
Same. Even at a substantial discount I'll sit on it for a while just to see how badly I want the game. I've paid full price for a few big games, but those are FromSoftware titles and they're about the only developer I trust not to royally miss the mark.
A man of sound mind
To me, there’s simply too many games I’m interested to buy all at release. I’ll buy the ones I’m REALLY excited at/near launch, but the rest? Wishlist, continue with what I’m currently playing, and then be reminded when a sale notifies me. Then I look at the sales history and if it’s something that goes on sale every month, I’ll likely pass (currently have a backlog) until I have the time. If it’s a rare deal, I’ll bite. Like Hyrule Warriors DLC going on sale. Was planning on getting it eventually, but after years of no deals, might as well get it because it’s unlikely to go lower or happen again soon.
The only downside is rarity. With physical games, you have to be careful you don’t wait TOO long and it goes out of print, only to raise the price again. I waited too long on the Ninja Gaiden Trilogy. $40 is fine, but I wasn’t in a rush. Then when I randomly searched it up again some time later… few were selling it and it was full price or more. Luckily PlayAsia got some copies about a week after that, but even some games from big publishers aren’t always safe. And at that point it was only 1.5 years after release. It doesn’t always take long to go out of print, and you’ll never know which ones will or won’t.
Never pay more than $20 for a computer game
I haven't paid full price for a game in 15 years and I don't think I ever will again.
Gabe Newell famously stated that piracy was a service problem. That people would pay for games if they could do so in a fashion that was convenient.
The value proposition and convenience at the time was online delivery, quick updates, ease of use, etc. That's shifted in the years since. Now that digital delivery and "nu-consumerism" has "altered the deal" as it were, we now have to expect that expectations are also altered.
This video is correct in that most gamers aren't making informed decisions. They're making impulse buys.
The longer this continues, the more damage it does to the entire industry. Already the quality of games has plunged in the last 10 years. Predominantly due to the rise of GAAS, Early Access and other such shennanigans. I'm all for funding small indies, but why does Square Enix need a system like that? Isn't it their job to finance games development and not to beg customers to pay for it for them?
Regulating this space should be a no-brainer. However, something tells me that things like this are so far down the list of priorities for our civilization as to be laughable. I do not say this in jest, it's incredibly saddening that even our entertainment as reached such an abysmal state.
Why should it be regulated when more people than ever are playing games?
I prefer the old ways too, but if more people accept this way of things, who am I to impose my way through regulations?
Gabe Newell is part of the problem
It is a case of Market Failure in my opinion, which means regulation is the right thing to do. Specifically, the market failure of Information Assymetry. @@AfutureV
@@AfutureV Why should we regulate labor laws when so many people are working?! Even the kids are getting into the action! It's great for the economy!
Just because people are engaging in this industry doesn't mean that you don't need protections from bad behavior, regulations ensure a level playing field and that the power disparity doesn't shift too far in any one direction. It's not the boogey man that you seem to think it is.
@@xethier False analogy, child labour (and work in general) was not an activity children willingly engaged in for fun, unlike video games. Regulations needed to be put in place because children could not do anything to change the situation.
With games, customers can choose to play or not Any game, so there is a perfect playing field. If it is not, tell me exactly in what way is any gamer obligated to play any game?
I know it's obvious from its title, but I love watching Cold Take because it feels so refreshingly close to the way average people (read: I) interact with video games and the surrounding culture. I'm a proponent of games as art and can get sniffy with the best of them, but its involvement in my life ends at hobby. This series dips my toes into topics and gives me food for thought without feeling so entrenched in gaming as to be impenetrable; it's closer to a conversation than a dissertation.
@SimuLord "How can you tell the Hobbyists from the Hardcore/professional players? The Hobbyists are the ones having fun."
I feel like I learned as much about bananas as I did about anything else from watching this video
I honestly kept having to go back to listen to sections because I got distracted by the banana work.
I learned way more about bananas.
Like the fact that a normal banana is worth TEN DOLLARS where this guy is from?
@@TheWickedWizardOfOz1It's a reference to Arrested Development. "How much could a banana cost? 10 dollars?"
Ditto.
RIP Escapist 🙏 Good luck all who jumped ship
The whole "You're buying a license to play that can be revoked at any time for any reason" thing is a huge problem. If I paid hard money for your game and then you take it away, you owe me my money back.
The fact is the license has always been the case, going back to the Atari era. The difference is now they have the tech to enforce the license.
@@earthdog7900 I know, but that doesn't make it right. Imagine you bought a Chrono Trigger cartridge to play on your SNES, and then Nintendo decided they didn't want you playing it, so they physically took it from you.
It’s semi-correct and semi-wrong. Hoeg Law explained it to a youtuber through a discussion (forget the channel name). A “license” doesn’t mean they can steal your physical copy because “they own the rights”. All it means by “license” is that you own an _instance_ of a product, and can’t say, scrape the software and use it in your own products. Because you only bought the license to use it as a product, not the _rights_ to the assets/data within it.
Of course you’re screwed with digital. Too many companies involved where they might not “remove” your purchase, but there’s tons of ways of making it inoperable (shutting down servers, banning/deleting your account, and in very rare cases, both remove it from the store and prevent you from redownloading, but I think that’s only happened with demos, idk if it’s happened with one’s with free-to-play games where you can invest money, but maybe a few).
@@mrshmuga9 Removing a free to play game that one could invest money in? Yes, an example of that is "Loadout Campaign Beta". Instance of removing a game from the store? Sort of; Duke Nukem: 3D Megaton Edition would be an example of that (along with "Devotion", however that was removed by China because it made fun of Xi).
Does Disney owe you money of all your previous visits if the park decides to shut down?
If game trailers disclose when something isn't actual game play, then it should also have a disclaimer about what feature isn't available at launch
I admit that I had to watch this a second time because I spent the first time watching the Dole commercial and the packing/shipping process.
Edit: I'm up to 4 times due to distractions and the banana packing process.
The algorithm loves you
Same. I kept pausing and then going back a few seconds to relisten to parts because I got distracted by the visuals.
Have you been diagnosed with ADHD
@@Celeste-hu5vg In my case, just ADD. It can be fun finding out what keeps my attention and what doesn't, though.
Just listen with your eyes closed
governemnts should make it to where when you purchase a digital item you actually own that item, and if the contents of said digital item has plans to change significantly in the future (example: live service games) they must disclose that in giant unmissable text that you have to read before being allowed to press the purchase button. the lack of any significant consumer protection for digital goods is insane
Alternatively, a game CANNOT update without your explicit consent. There are so many games that literally force you to update, need to have constant online access even if they're singeplayer, etc. Example: this is why I never bought another Rockstar game after GTA V. I only played singleplayer, but the game forces you to install bloatware to monitor whether you're online, and doesn't let you play if you haven't been online for too long. And guess what happens if you go online. The game updates.
1. No forced updates.
2. The ability to downgrade a game.
3. No mandatory online access.
This things should be put into law.
It would already be a valid lawsuit for corps to do those things if it wasn't explicitly stated in the End User License Agreement that you signed before playing. By signing those you are acknowledging that you are basically renting time on their servers while those servers are active, and that you are not owed anything if those servers eventually go away.
And what would the consequences be if a the devs came and made major changes in the future that they hadn't planned for at the time? What would even qualify as a significant change? People buying live service games wouldn't get much benefit from it because constant change is the core premise of live service products, the warning is implicit in the product itself.
@@jammyweegit1144 I may be wrong but I've on more than one occasion heard consistently that no court in the world will respect EULA because of the explicit expectation societally that no one reads them. So it seems more to come along that people expect because it is written that they shouldn't even try to fight it sometimes.
That's kinda the whole concept behind nfts but it could easily be done other ways
Thumbs up for the Arrested Development $10 banana reference. Keep it up Frost 👍
There's always money in the banana stand
There's always money in the Banana Stand.
There's ALWAYS MONEY in THE BANANA STAND!!!
came here to see who else caught the $10 banana
@@TeacupTSauceror toss a banana, get a buck
I really like this guy and his imaginary cigar he's chomping on.
I feel like a dame with mile long legs walking into his office trying to learn the score everytime he makes a video.
"She had a full set of curves, and the kind of legs you'd like to suck on for a day."
This is why piracy will never go away, and why it shouldn't. It's not bad enough that a game can change completely from the state you originally purchased it in. If you bought a license to keep a banana, ate some of it, and the company that makes and distributes the banana goes out of business or decides not to support bananas anymore, the remainder of the item you already paid for disappears from reality, and you have no recourse. Piracy/game preservation is essential to maintaining access to games not just in perpetuity, but in the state they were accepted at the time when the purchase (or presumed purchase) is agreed to have taken place.
the OSHA comparison is pretty apt because humans will take convenience over safety any day
The good thing is when piracy becomes REALLY more convenient (instead of mostly now) than a legitimate buy because of shady business practices (denuvo, having to create 36 accounts with passwords to enter etc.), the sales will drop
Step 1 of that is, we need to stop calling customers, consumers and we need to do it yesterday.
😂 was literally going to say that.
Customers: people who buy a product that they actually want and care about, plus they don't like being scammed
Consumers: mindless people who are pleased just by getting something new, even if that "new" product is exactly the same they already bought 5 times, but it has a new paint job.
@@SimuLordcustomers are the consumers and stockholders are the customers. But the stockholders only care about short term growth, the value of the stock in a couple years be damned. Or so upper management in AAA seems to work.
im reminded of the fact that Magicka. A game i really like. Had a working multiplayer but the final update of that game made it super unstable. so if you want to play this very fun game with your friends( the correct way to play it) you have to revert it to a previous update.
Cold Take is amazing. Glad they got him on board at Second Wind
Can't believe I only just now found these
I do think that there needs to be a Digital Consumer Rights act of some kind that gives customers far more ownership of a digital good, since _everything_ will be digital at some point. If you buy a book or a movie, you should be able to access that book or movie on any platform available, and if the original place you got it shut down, they should be legally required to make that product available elsewhere in perpetuity.
But "perpetuity" doesn't make money. And it's all about making money above all else. It would be nice to access a digital purchase forever, but to them, that's "leaving money on the table".
But "perpetuity" doesn't make money. And it's all about making money above all else. It would be nice to access a digital purchase forever, but to them, that's "leaving money on the table".
@@DefendYoungstown Oh, I agree that there are plenty of reasons they would not _want_ to, I'm saying that the law should force their hand, _requiring_ that they do so, if they want to engage in that sort of product at all.
This places a much higher and unreasonable standard on digital goods over physical ones. If you buy a movie on VHS, there is no expectation of ownership of it also in DVD and Blu-ray. Not to mention perpetuity, tapes degrade over time.
@@AfutureV I suppose there's some reasonable discussion on the limitations, I agree that it would not make sense to require them to actively port a game from one platform to another, but I do think that in cases where the game *would* play just fine, they should be required to keep it available. If people are able to download the product to their own hardware, then so long as they can access that product indefinitely, then that's fine. But if the product can only exist in a cloud space, or has to check in to a home server every time it runs, then they have to make sure that this will never stop working.
I swear this guy needs to record a Noir Detective novel. I'd listen to him read those books day in and day out
I was not expecting a Home Alone 3 clip to open this video.
A missed example is Rocket League. Originally when you purchased it on Steam, it was a Steam game. It has since been updated to be EGS only.
As someone who sells junk toys to collectors so they can use them for parts, it's not a crime to sell crap. It's a crime to sell crap and claim it's gold.
That's an interesting job
Every Cold Take I've watched so far, I end up agreeing with.🤯 So Frost and I must have a lot of similar thoughts when it comes to this kind of stuff, which is comforting knowing I'm not the only one noticing these things😄💖😊
Requiring better disclosure on how a game might be changed over time is a good step. At that point, consumers are made more aware and it ALSO provides a platform for different developers to differentiate themselves with pledges of what they would and wouldn't change about their game post-launch. Of course, once it's in writing, they can be held to it legally, so who knows if any dev would want to commit.
On one hand, Cyberpunk drastically improved the gameplay to match the quality of the story. on the other, Skullgirls removed a bunch of content paid for via kickstarter with no replacement and censored assets after specifically promising back then to never do so again because ESG. certainly goes both ways.
To your point, I feel like Cyberpunk's redemption was facilitated a lot by its strong narrative. For all the bugs and missing gameplay features, the story was the one thing that never had to be patched. It's what made me come away with very positive feelings after finishing it for the first time despite all of its flaws. Skullgirls is soured by having the gameplay and character design as the sole selling points, so messing with those is messing with its core rather than ancillary bits.
....did Frost just get me to watch 6 minutes of banana b-roll?.....well done....
Personal take since this is close to home for me: I actually really enjoyed No Man's Sky circa 1.10 "Foundation" for what it was, and would really like to play it again. It feels unsettling that *that* game now only exists in my memory.
It's occured to me a few times we could really use preservation of old versions. Like a Wayback Machine for games. It's such a small thing but sometimes someone might just want to know what an old version of a game was like, or want to relive their memories of the version they first played. There's so much potential and interesting history we lose with the constant march to new patches.
I feel the exact same about Fallout76. For all its well deserved backlash, I enjoyed the game before actual NPCs were added. It gave off a completely different vibe to now.
Here in Brazil we have actual consumer rights and it always shocks me how far the USA is behind most countries
Patrulha do consumidor momento
USA is a "third-world" nation in many respects:
Worker's rights
Consumer Protection
Healthcare availability and affordability
Housing availability and affordability
Transportation availability and affordability
Education quality and affordability
"Justice" System
I'm sure there are plenty more, but that's just what i can list off the top of my head in 30 seconds.
In the US, because our news and conversations are mostly pointed inward, we don't find out how much better other countries' protections are until someone from that country points it out.
And my Jedi: Survivor game is still unplayable nor refundable.
'Murica!
I just patiently wait for the day that Americans figure out how awful our healthcare system is compared to every other first world country and decide to do something about it
Eu literalmente trabalho com Isso@@breno5676
The point at 6 minutes that they'll grant you a full refund and the implication that it's because people prefer hands on testing is misleading I feel.
It's not done out of the goodness of their hearts to help consumers, in fact it's only because laws from places like the EU and Australia forced them to do it after they were sued :P
(Note, not to say you're intentionally misleading of course - just the phrasing's awkward :P)
Now we need the EU to sue other companies… Sony won’t give you a refund after you _start_ downloading a game… what the heck is that? You wouldn’t even know if it’s broken. Also, if you buy it through your console (instead of browser) I’m pretty sure it automatically starts downloading anyway. So you’d never be eligible for a refund.
Replace "banana" with "Apple" and the answer to "do you still want it?" appears to be "yes; take all my money".
;-)
Fallout 4 used to run quite happily on my rig, barring the odd bethesda glitch. Last time I loaded it up, it hard crashed to desktop any time I went near Boston. Now, I'm not saying the whole paid mods thing (which I refuse to engage with) are responsible, but I'm not not saying that.
Step one would be to stop labelling customers as consumers.
A consumer is like a mindless cow, sitting in its pen with it's greasy harvester-maw agape both waiting and demanding more cud be shoveled down it's gullet. Quality doesn't matter, just quantity, it wants cud and it wants cud NOW.
A customer is an intelligent, discerning individual that takes their purchasing habits into consideration of others and themselves. A customer is a person.
A customer is someone capable of reading a game's terms before agreeing to them.
My question to you: What do we do about all the customers who are entirely too happy to act like consumers?
@@AfutureV Well said!
Timely given what's just happened to counterstrike GO. I paid full price for it 8 years ago, now it doesn't exist.
Didn't you get CS2 for free? ;-)
As soon as you were bringing up how live service can make a great game worse, I just knew Overwatch would get mentioned. :(
At least Blizzard gave me a reason to move onto other games, and I’ll always have the memories of the good Overwatch.
Hearing this it make me feel like even if we were fully formed in the way you are asking Frost companies would still find a gray area to mess with us. Nice video as it was greatly educational.
Better to have the grey areas than to have corporations literally encouraged to behave this way by the lack of consumer regulations and rights
@@Vanity0666 True enough
Portal plays as it did all those years ago, but by default there are now radios in every room playing music on the pc version if you've ever completed it, which really mess with the whole vibe unless you disable them.
The Arrested Development $10 banana joke is perfect.
I mean it’s one banana, what could it cost? $10?
Clicked on this video before I realised it was published under the Escapist.
All paradox games you can revert back to any given patch very simply and easily, al the files are hosted on whatever service platform they use - so e.g. on steam they are accessible in the betas list. A lot of other frequently patched games that aren't online multiplayer experiences have similar capabilities - e.g. kerbal space program and minecraft both have revert options.
I love by he inclusion of the Pokémon game corner that they removed and have never put back in. The game corner could be a great addition back to games.
Speaking of consent. You are my second video that I am allowed to watch today thanks to UA-cam somehow being able to check what browser's extensions and deciding "no no no, you better watch shity ads if you want to watch videos!". Wonder what will replace UA-cam...
There's an ad blocker called AdBlocker Ultimate that allows you to block the stupid popup that says "Ad blockers aren't allowed"
I don't know what bothers me more:
1. That capitalism only leaves the choice of participating in the game purchase process or not.
2. That our society has a better structured plan and place for those harvested bananas than for me.
Reminds me of when Rockstar cut some radio music from GTA digital copies. The game wasn't made better by that, it happened because of licensing, but now a lot of people have less game than when they bought it.
Star Trek turning into a musical is 100% canon
About a year or two ago I downloaded a mobile game and played it offline for about 3-4 weeks having much fun with the game even though the progress started to slow down as I was reaching later parts of the game, I updated my app hoping to get some quality of life improvements because the game was brand new and had a whole month of development time, but after I updated the app it was an entirely different game more generic and watered down and streamlined for micro transactions, I guess they got a lot of hate for the game being too boring at 1.0 but I liked that gameplay and they did a 180 and made the game too complicated by chopping up all the stats into tiny pieces and then offering an endless slog of randomly generated items that can boost those tiny stats by small amounts so now you need to second guess every decision in the game and it completely ruined the game for me
Yikes, which game was it?
Also, subway surf in 2023...
@@elalaela2694 Eatventure by lessmore ug
I feel that. About ten years ago, I used to play the free app version of the Sims. I was good at hoarding resources and streamlining the daily goals. I had millions of sim money and the currency used to complete actions faster and other things. Then they started adding the different ages to the game which lead into forced aging of characters until they died and you had replace them. You could spend the currency to temporarily paused the aging. And keep spending and spending to keep your favorite Sims alive or pay to get new ones. It burns through my currency like a wildfire. It was forcing me towards micro transactions. So I just deleted the game instead.
Always money in the banana stand
😉
You're the only commentator I ever don't watch above 1.0x speed. It just sounds perfect at that speed.
"You can't properly consent without being fully informed." - worth repeating.
There’s always money in the Banana Stand
Like how he mentioned Overwatch as an example of a game made worse by updates. I probably played more OW than anything else from like 2018 til they turned it into OW2, and since then I can't even be bothered to touch it. No real reason why they couldn't have made OW2 a standalone game (like a real sequel) instead of completely replacing the "first" one other than Blizzard-Activision's greed.
This video had more references than a public library.
This whole video feels like the segments in Metal Gear Solid when a character gives a monologue while a low res live action footage is playing.
True!
I already knew everything mentioned in the video, but I learned a lot about banana production. 10/10
I work in financial compliance and it astounds me what the gaming industry gets away with. Any other product/service companies would get closed down overnight for their shady business practices, but because it's a "game" and the regulation industry is dominated by older generation workers, the regulators don't understand it, and nothing gets done.
6:38 I immediately thought about Overwatch (Overwatch """2""") and you didn't disappoint, hah!
Did not expect to see those ancient racist banana commercials in an Escapist video.
1:00 thats a bar
Thank you sir.
Quite frankly, you help me sleep at night.
I got lost in the Banana roll...er B roll footage I started to forget what Frost was saying
I am geeked to finally do this - tomatoes are legally vegetables in the US. Nix v Hedden - 149 US 304 (1893 Supreme Court case). Pedantry ho!
The banana B-roll was interesting, and I found myself watching it rather than just listening and doing something else. It also reminded me of Tropico 5’s ‘strategic banana reserves.’
Whenever I think of those marketing schemes, I've gotta remember xkcd 641, just a shelve of virtually identical cereals, just one exclaims it's asbestos free.
I think the real swinddler in the banana analogy is whoever initially sold you the “normal $10 banana”
Clearly, Lucille Bluth.
I had to stop the video for a minute to stop giggling at "what it was like to chew 5 gum". Top-notch writing as always.
Personally, one thing I've long thought is that copyrighted media should have to have archives made of every version offered, and allow people to access them for free at the conclusion of the term of copyright, to prevent companies from erasing history to avoid competing with themselves. Maybe they should also have to make the archived versions available to people who have bought the product, so if they don't like the directions it's taken they can set up a server and play how they want.
This is such an important topic that warrants discussion. Because what do we do with games like Diablo 4, which after launch went grind-tastic to compensate for a lack of content. Is it fair to ask for a full refund? I'd say yes, because too often decisions made by these companies aren't for our benefit.
Imagine if you cancelled your Netflix subscription because they cancelled the show you like and they had to refund your last two months payment? They'd think twice about their current model of announcing shows to drum up subscribers only to cancel it.
It's very Orwellian to only own a licence to play and not the game itself, like how screwed we would be if some super-corp or government decided to shut down the internet.
France (and I'm assuming most of the EU) has some elements of response to digital customers rights. Here what we buy from an established reseller/store has to conform to what is described, and normal/reasonable for such a product or service. So if a product advertise A, is described as B on the store page, has the manufacturer mention C in some PR, and is sold as D by the store, and the manual talks about the E capability, the product HAS TO have A, B, C, D and E.
If not, the customer has two years after purchase to realize this, and ask the reseller to either have it fix, or refund it. No negotiation or judicial pursuit or anything, it's a very fast and clear liability from the reseller. They sell something, they are responsible and liable for that something. It doesn't replace commercial warranties, false advertising, fraud, or anything, it's just another first layer of defense that's totally free, and very simple to understand. And since this isn't the US, you can't sign away your rights in a contract, the law takes precedence over any EULA or sales contracts or terms of service.
That's all from a general EU law. Now, the twist is, for a few years now in France (and I'm assuming at least other EU members), this also apply to digital products, including videogames. So it doesn't protect against bad business practices that were advertised, but it does protect against servers shutting down too early for example, or features or capabilities going away or being "vaulted down" (cough, cough), and many other aspects. And is easier to get a refund if there was "creative" advertising or PR, etc.
And since it's against the reseller (which later can take it up to the manufacturer, or here the game publisher), it's simpler and more direct for the customer.
I don't know of anyone who tried to do this with Steam or GOG, and it's not widely known, but it's certainly an interesting protection that should make some waves the first time this goes into mainstream gaming medias.
Steam's refund policy, like the rest of the industry, came as a reaction to Electronic Arts. Electronic Arts started offering refunds in an effort to regain credibility after Sim City. Early access had noting to do with it.
Imagine Stores would have to list the 10 biggest bugs in the current version, before you are allowed to pay them.
One caveat/correction: the "you bought a license not the game" is a bit of misinformation spread by published. This idea has been debunked several times.
To add (because it’s important to correct what’s wrong)… you own an _instance/copy_ of that software. But you don’t own the _legal rights_ to redistribute it or use the assets/materials contained on that disc to use in your own works, just you have access to the file. It would be like saying you own a photograph of a landscape because you were able to download the file off Google Images.
My weekly whiskey soaked voice is back. I love this series man.
I never thought I'd be so interested in what a group of banana farm employees were up to. Give them all a raise, I say.
I cant be the only one to have to watch this twice because i was too fascinated by the bananna plant
Australian consumer law is thankfully a lot more robust. Products can't be put up for sale near their initial release, a purchase of a product gives you ownership and not a licence to use, you're entitled to a functional product, and the consumer has the full right to modify and repair. Whether those laws are enforced is another issue.
We are too deep into the corporate hellscape and those at the top are too deep in the money addiction to fix things
The statement at 5:08 is not true. It has been established by multiple courts that the copy of a game tied to your account is a unique item that you cannot be deprived of without valid reason.
It should be a digital-consumer protection law that any software that the consumer pays any amount of money for, has to provide a fully-featured mode that can be used/played without any time limitations and additional requirements like an internet connection or activation. This ensures that if you pay for a digital product, you get to OWN your copy of that product, usable as long as you keep it safely stored somewhere.
Holysheet this was deep. Thank you for this great content.
I often worry I take the wrong thing away from some videos. This might be one of those occasions as I can't help wondering who is chasing spiders around with a banana
You just have a curious mind - that's great ;-)
It is quite unfortunate that for pretty much all live service games, it is no longer possible to go back and play those games as they were at release (officially). Overwatch itself is a good example as plenty of people who play Overwatch 2 now will never be able to experience what the game was like back in 2016 when it initially became a cultural phenomenon. I still have the physical box I bought at release but I cannot go back to experience that version of the game
Even physical games can be disabled. I heard you can't play Tokyo Jungle anymore even with the physical disc on a PS3, since the game was delisted.
That was such a fun one what
Modern games have learned a valuable lesson from older industries - ambiguity always benefits the one able to set the terms. Even things as obviously unenforceable as EULAs have stayed up for decades simply because they ensure they never end up getting a ruling against them in court, and in the meantime they get a portion of the benefits since they can treat their fake rules as real until proven otherwise.
As far as I know, EULAs have been upheld in US courts, but not (always) in EU courts.
I think it's easy to ignore if you like the changes, so it's worth asking what if you didn't. You see this on any game that goes the "living" route: each time a patch comes around, an expansion is discussed, etc... these are all the wrong changes and focus should be elsewhere. It launches and these changes are the worst the game has ever been and it's driven people off.
Personally I mind it when we see shit like Overwatch and Diablo 2: but if you think Factorio had a heyday, a best patch or version, you can access all of them still. You can still play the version of Factorio that you liked and brought you the joy and memories you want and I think that's a-ok. That's no idle choice, that's a game where the motto is "The factory must grow" and yet as more discussions on the impending expansion crop up, you see doomsayers decry it. The Factorio, it seems, must not. And yet, this is a developer who has painstakingly preserved it's history. Minecraft is another example: if you think the latest updates have set it off, you can roll back to an earlier version.
A label, I think, is warranted indeed. As it is more common that the newest version will supplant the older one and I suppose it is fair to say if you change someone's banana they ought to have a say in it. Especially if they happen to be in the middle of eating it.
Steams Refund came mostly because it became law in the EU that digital purchases need to have a refund policy of at least two weeks.
Also not true about licenses. They are perpetual if bought singular, subscriptions are exempt. Since software is considered a "good", the license CANNOT be revoked by the creator if you bought it once. Unless you illegaly share the game, sell the game etc. It's HIGHLY illegal in the EU to make a software not useable after the fact and is subject to heavy fines and a full refund of the original price if, for example, the software is made unusable by the company shutting down servers.
Know your rights.
With early access it's pretty standard that you should expect the game to change (if it ever actually leaves early access) and that that change could improve, or remove features you enjoyed.
This is made a fine compromise by it being somewhat cheaper than the " finished" version and encourages supporting the Devs to finalise their ideas.
What I hate is the destiny 2 model of, expansions that just don't exist anymore. And progress amounting to nothing but a waste of time, I had to walk away from the game entirely because things I paid for just aren't there, and with no way to play it ever again even if I have the physical media.
Its for that reason I won't even entertain a live service game anymore.
Yeah. And some people wonder why I still play my old SNES carts. Most of the time I just want a game that's always what it appears to be, runs consistently, and doesn't try to sell me anything. Plus the music on that system slaps.
Imagine buying a car where you are able to use the seat heater and other things for free, only for there to be an update to the software later where you have to accept the new conditions to be able to use the product any further, and it makes some of the cars features now cost extra for premium every month.
the…banana analogy certainly came out of left field but it’s an apt one to say the least
This video really shows you how the sausage is made.
And by sausage, I mean banana.
keep making videos about these important topics, gamers can't get it through their thick skulls fast enough
Aside from the "it's just a license" bait-and-switch, the damn things are also just massively overpriced now and come with eula terms that basically grant full permission to search your computer and track/datamine EVERYTHING
That's why you straight up cannot play a paradox game anymore. It doesn't matter if the game is well-made (it isn't), it doesn't matter wether it would be a fun game to play, because it's just not even remotely worth the cost in patience, data, and money.
The market has gone insane and desperate for ever-bolder scams and they are pushing their luck past what even the uninformed consumer will tolerate.
sorry I lost track of what you said, I was too mesmerized by the donkey operated banana train...
Starbound was a fun Terraria-like game that I was just starting to get into when they updated it to add multiplayer. They rewrote the game to be a server-client model to support this, however they also ran the single player game through the same server-client model. This added massive amounts of lag to the single player game, making it utterly impossible to enjoy anymore. They effectively killed their own game. There was no way to undo the update or get my money back. I felt like a kid who had just bought an icecream only to have the store owner slap it out of my hand and refuse to give my money back.
And they completely changed how the game played! I bought it early but then only played sporadically but at first the conceit was that some calamity visited your homeworld regardless of your origin and you were living and exploring "after the end". Then when I came back it was almost a level-based stucture with a generic "happy federation" starting point. The final game didn't appear to be bad (I did not play it enough to judge either way), but it wasn't what I signed up for!
Make trailers legally binding. Watch how carefully they manage hype then.