I am really tired of people wilfully misinterpreting "Thank heaven for little girls." If you listen to the lyrics, he's thanking heaven for little girls because they GROW UP in the most delightful ways. He is not being a pedophile.
Yes! The song goes on to say "Those little eyes, so helpless and appealing/ One day will flash and send you crashing through the ceiling!" The singer (Honore Lachaille, uncle of Gaston, the film's hero) goes out with adult women - not children.
People need to chill and understand that’s part of the past, it’s not fair to judge something that happens 60 years or more ago under the today life standards. All these musicals were amazing with a lot of good content, and excellent talents. One day our current times will be under the microscope too.
Exactly what I logged in to comment! I took classes about the history of film & theater in school - you have to look at the period it was made in or depicting, not modern standards. Lots of the old musicals won a lot of awards & critical acclaim when they were released. The older films are part of the history of their art forms - just like other historical artifacts. Some are actually pretty good if you sit & watch them without 2024 goggles on! Old Hollywood films aren't alone in their depiction of the way life was at the time - foreign films have it too - lots of content is currently taboo because of the societal changes in the decades between making & now. Tv & film made nowadays isn't always true to the reality of period or historical topics & will probably be judged later for inaccurate history. We've turned into a society that is offended by every little thing & some people just like to make noise until everyone knows their opinion. If you don't like messages older films or tv shows depict, don't watch them - stick with the unscripted crap that's everywhere nowadays & I am sure future generations will consider "reality" content obsolete & unacceptable later.
Exactly. We've become so weird with all this woke an politically correct stuff. It's not like any of those musicals had blackface or anything like that and some of them were and are based on actual people and events!
Sometimes, truth is ugly. Funny Girl is based on a true story. She made the mistake of many intelligent, talented women of investing in an unworthy man. I mean, poet Sylvia Plath killed herself when she realized her husband, narcissist poet laureate Ted Hughes, would not leave his mistress for her.
Truth sometimes is ugly -- but Funny Girl warps Fannie Brice's story (including her relationship with Arnstein) so much that it edges over into fiction. The fact that one of Brice's sons was a producer of the stage version had a lot to do with it making her (quite interesting) life story into a cliched "Good Woman Loves the Wrong Man" tale. Plus the score (excepting "People" and "Don't Rain on My Parade") is pretty meh. The problem with Funny Girl isn't that it hasn't aged well; it's that it was never a very good musical to start -- it was a hit because of a great lead performance, but that was all it had really going for it.
Whereas I normally enjoy the insight of these lists, especially when it comes to musicals, but this list in particular drips of narrow mindedness like many contemporary commentaries on past artistic efforts in numerous genres. These are snapshots of the times and seeing them from that perspective actually says something about where we’ve come from and where we’ve gone. And besides the songs, “You have to be Carefully Taught” from South Pacific has lyrics that at the time were boar rocking and insightful.
Lt. Cable sings You've got to be carefully taught out of anger and frustration. He, too, like Nellie, is trying to let go of old prejudices and ways of thinking.
I don’t like the implication you all are making about South Pacific. Are you saying we can’t forgive people for their wrong attitudes, especially if they redeem and change themselves for the better, later? It looks to me like that’s what happens.
South Pacific could be replaced on this list by Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. It's the one Rodgers and Hammerstein that could probably be done today if it's approached with care. Also throwing out the musical that gave us "Carefully Taught" would be a crime.
She left out that a very underage girl (Liat) became the object of desire of an adult navy sailor. Considering that her family would marry her off because of the family's poverty and, it's just wrong on several levels.
@@The_Dudester Yes about the age problem, but I disagree with the poverty part. IIRC, Liat's mother, Bloody Mary, does a good business peddling things to US sailors, and offers to bring in all the money they need so Cable and Liat can "do what comes naturally" all the time.
Exactly! They are true to their own social norms & so much has evolved since then. There's a nostalgic component to them too. What's next, stripping classic films of their awards? If you don't want to get a glimpse into 50+ year old movie making techniques, musical styles, societal norms, etc don't watch anything that was released in the past. Hollywood seems to like recreating old films & there is usually a reason why the remakes aren't as beloved as the originals. Hopefully nobody goes back & "fixes" the original versions with today's technology!
@@kennethwayne6857 I guess I am torn about editing the Disney classics - kids won't pick up on the stuff that adults would, they will watch the movie & enjoy it without the social criticism adults notice. So much has changed in animation, films, special effects, etc in the last 50 years! I'm not sure editing out the 'bad' stuff from the originals seem unnecessary - they have the tools to reanimate the story & update it if they want to bring it up to today's standards. It will obviously make money even if they have to basically start over. Most Fairy Tales in history have problematic themes in today's views, so leave the classic versions alone & recreate it if it's necessary. I don't think using AI to fix the problem segments is a good idea (anything I have seen so far is noticeable) & it seems disrespectful to the voice actors, animators & everyone who worked on the original films! Plus, didn't the SAG- AFTRA strike & new contract agreement solve the AI question?
It's a Miss Mojo list, so it's hardly to be taken seriously - all highly-opinionated, out of context, reactive and far too often poorly researched. Next ...
I love and watch all of these movies with the clear understanding that they were made in a different time. Doesn’t change the beauty of the music, the costumes and the sets.
So you must really hate Jane Austen stories too. It's dangerous and misleading to look at these through a modern lens - that's how books get banned too. I disagree with most of the comments and criticisms you've made. West Side Story has "I Have a Love", Oliver has "As Long as he needs Me' - a gorgeous song that is a tribute to an abuser while the entire story is about training street kids to be criminals...the list goes on but a lot of these plot points opened people's eyes in their day, even though they were pure entertainment. Gigi was based on true stories and in the end she escaped her fate because she was a strong woman. I'd take any of these stories and lyrics over the hate filled, violent , misogynistic songs that are hits today.
People often infantilize those times by suggesting folks didn't critique these musicals for their problematic content. People were not sitting ducks accepting things. They pushed back. There were plenty of people back then calling out the ignorant aspects of these musicals. The primary difference between then and now is the internet, which adds more voices and disseminates information quickly.
Totally disagree with your ideas. Even if they are not sanitised it opens up conversations about how things were. Looking back on today's movies in 50 years time will they be found to be excessively violet and lacking in ethics.
Well said, Sparky! I agree completely. This voice-over woman is displaying her intolerance and her quickness to judge (and to judge thoughtlessly). She should try thinking things through.
I have to agree. I grew up on these shows, and they are beloved not because of their social implications, but because of the beauty of the songs themselves. Today's music is not even worth listening to, and is more demeaning than these old pieces.
In South Pacific, Watchmojo says that even though the lead actress has racist views, she grows and comes to terms with her leading man’s 2 half Polynesian children by the end of the story, but because she was born narrow minded, he shouldnt reward her with his time. So is that where we are in 2024? Condemning everyone who has faults EVEN IF they come to realize they are wrong? Thats mind blowing. I hope if I ever make mistakes, im not judged that harshly!
I don't even know what the point of this video is. We all know that these movies and all movies from the 40s 50s whatever reflect the society they were created in. These are some of my favorite movies. I love my fair lady and have loved it since I first thought when I was about four, I Love the music man, I love anything by lerner and leowe, I can overlook the flaws. Better that than unmitigated completely brutal violence and graphic sex scenes that require that you send your 6-year-old out of the room.
It was offensive back then 🙄 but of course people don’t want to acknowledge that. Whether we are using standards back then and now, it was still wrong.
There's a big difference between the Isms in "Annie Get Your Gun" and the Ism in "South Pacific". For one thing, the characters in "South Pacific" are far more complex as is the music & lyrics. Also, as many commenters have pointed out, the characters all move past their initial prejudices, which doesn't seem to be the case in today's so-called Woke/MAGA society. But then "You Have to Be Carefully Taught."
Also, 'South Pacific' is about entirely fictional characters, and 'Annie Get Your Gun' completely butchers the story of real life people. Frank Butler was actually hugely supportive of Annie Oakley's talent and became her manager, instead of becoming a jealous manchild who has to be placated.
@@gracehowell. I don't know why but "Annie Gets Your Gun' triggers me for all kinds of reasons. Exactly what you mentioned plus, the way MGM treated Judy when they forced her to do the movie then made a big deal about her being unfit.... Reba McEntire was supposed to be good in it; but then she was a fan of the real Annie Oakley and tried to bring some realism to the whole production.
@@11cabadgerI mean, the racist elements are very much problematic, but would've at least been realistic at the time. Maybe MsMojo should do a list of top 10 most inaccurate musical biopics of all time? 'Night and Day' would possibly top the list, along with 'Annie Get Your Gun'. Ooh, 'Calamity Jane' is so inaccurate, though...
This list is a little like the criticism it levels at these musicals. Not everything said is wrong or self-righteous... just enough to be annoying. As far as my favorite musical on the list (I'm not a fan of all of them), The Music Man is about a smooth operator, true, but at the end of the film, he has changed and is willing to suffer the consequences of his actions if it means he can be with the woman he loves. As far as your eye roll at such a happy ending, if you're looking for realism I'd suggest something that doesn't have performers bursting into song at various plot points.
And the reason Marion changes her feelings about him is that she suddenly becomes aware of the positive influence Hill is having on the town, especially her little brother, despite knowing Hill is a fraud.
Funny Girl, The King and I, and others were based on the lives of real people. And frankly, the current trend to shut down history because we've changed and it's "not acceptable" any more is frickin' annoying. Perhaps we should use even musicals as learning/teaching moments instead of banning them all together.
Exactly what some of my junior high and high school teachers did... I learned a great deal about the incidental and monumental realities of WWII through a free Saturday screening of "The Longest Day" provided for the entire eighth grade by my history teacher... KDM
I don’t care how “problematic” yall label any of these, they’re classics for a reason and I adore them all wholeheartedly and will never stop singing those gorgeous songs! 🩵
While I agree that rhe plots can be/are problematic, the scores are simply gorgeous and will live on forever. One can also say that "Oliver!" has problems regarding the abusive relationship between Nancy and Bill.
Abusive, and when Nancy stands up for Oliver and herself, and tries to get Oliver away, Bill kills her. Nevermind that she didn't 'peach', (betray him to the authorities). And while it makes sense that we shouldn't portray abusive relationships as healthy, Nancy loving her Bill was not uncommon then, and still isn't now. The relationship isn't shown as good, and Bill is a frightening menace, so now as then, it serves as a cautionary tale. Get away from such a person, you deserve better, and there are kind people who will help. You see it more in the book, but it's there in the play too.
I enjoyed My Fair Lady and Music Man back in the 90's and they still seem good today. Same with The King and I, even when it scared me when the king whipped a girl when I saw it on stage with my family. I was surprised he didn't knowing the teacher was watching in the other versions
I've mixed emotions about your criticisms of some of the most iconic, world-wide favorite musicals. It's good to point out racism, misogyny, etc. But I saw many of these musicals growing up in the 1950s and love all of them. I saw strong women in an error when women were homemakers and powerless. I saw despicable men change character or suffer the consequences. I learned that you've got to be taught. And I do thank heaven for little girls. Not because they are girls. Because they grow up as women to love. Without one, you don't have the other. Both must be treated with dignity. Gigi holds out for marriage and gets it. One musical you left out, maybe because it wasn't made into a movie, was The Most Happy Fella. In that musical, Tony was way older than Rosabella, similar to the age difference in South Pacific. The Most Happy Fella was my first and possibly favorite Broadway show. My mother took me to see it. My white sister from a white family was happily married for years to a wonderful black man who was 20 years older than her. They were married for years until his death. Another sister married a man over 20 years older than herself. Also happily married for years until he died. When you denigrate the age difference in partners, my experience finds that problematic. I understand that the culture of the past seeped into the musicals (and plays, and TV, and at work and at home, etc.), of the past, but the musicals you've mentioned mostly tried to move the needle to a better world. They certainly helped inspire me to honor strong women and not discriminate. Also, I'm able to love a good Cinderella story and appreciate strong women at the same time. A man using wealth or position to control a poor woman is one thing. But having wealth or position and falling in love with a poor woman - what's wrong with that? In many sites, the man hides his wealth to be sure the woman loves him and not his money. My mother became a widow at 35 in 1950, never remarried, and raised five children by herself (with some help from her widowed mother and the local church). My three sisters all grew up to be strong women like their mother. My mom and I liked musicals more than the others, but I never heard her criticize any of those musicals (or operas). And I doubt very much she was brainwashed by Leave It to Beaver. Anyway, musicals may raise disturbing issues, but those that do are better than boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl. And they often teach lessons of love, struggle, humility, dignity and harmony. All with incredibly beautiful music.
@@the1magageneral323 I would not use absolutes like "never," but I do believe there are people who accept only one side of an argument. Failure to understand both sides of an argument sides does not help arriving at the truth.
If you aren't a raving, woke fool, then none of the past is a problem. Because you will understand that as humanity grows and learns standards change. We learn from the past, so throwing out anything slightly offensive means you never learn to be better.
I would've loved to see after Higgins asked Eliza "Where the devil are my slippers?" for Eliza to say "Have you looked up your bloomin' arse, you drunkin fool?"
@@margaretforsey7763 I actually saw the abominable 2018 production, When Eliza boldly strode away, an entire coven cackled away. When I politely inquired how Eliza was going to repay the months and months of free elocution lessons she had received, which had transformed her life, or the free room and board, they were speechless, and then indignant. The point, of course, is that Eliza and Higgins have fallen rather deeply in love, and the inquiry about slippers is his way of inviting her into his world. Perish the thought of a little common sense.
Bernard Shaw did not give the slipper ending. It was HOLLYWOOD that damaged the script by wanting to make it a "happily ever after" to suit US tastes. If you read the prologue to Pygmalion you can find what the insightful Mr Shaw thought about the future of Eliza.
King and I was not created by Rogers and Hammerstein as much as "Adapted" by them. They wrote a script and music, but this was based off "Anna and the King of Siam". While the sources are questionable, it was at least confirmed that "a white English woman" went to teach English to the children of the King of Siam. How is that "aged poorly" or is it just popular to say that?
What is considered public entertainment changes with social attitudes. Feeding Christans to lions was an attraction as were public executions and floggings. What this video is doing is akin to looking at a picture of your grandparents and shaming them for not being stylish or edgy. The idea that all musicals should become like Hamilton is enough to make me shudder. Give it a break and enjoy the brillance of the music.
@@laurellane1721 You won't even have to wait that long. Even though it's portrayed by a cast of diverse ethnic backgrounds some people already complain that it still is basically a story of "old white men".
I don't understand their issue with Mary Poppins. The story establishes that Mr. Banks runs a strict household and is not as involved with his children as he should be. So it is up to Mary Poppins to get the ball rolling to liven up the family atmosphere. It is actually Burt who gets the children to understand how hard their father works for them and gently pushes Mr. Banks to realize that he needs to get to know his children before it's too late. It's the kind of theme that hasn't aged, so I don't understand the problem.
@@suebob16 The "problem" is that Cancel-culture, P.C., Woke, DEI culture believes that it is the only culture (way of living) that is correct! Most people pushing the above agendas are cultural Marxists who want to change the culture of Western civilization. They do this by changing what is perceived as the cultural norms (i.e. Marxist theory's Cultural hegemony) this results in endless protests, Drag-Queen story hours at public libraries, Gay-Pride Parades, etc,, etc., etc The goal is to destroy Western Civilization as we know it and to replace it with the cultural Marxist's own idealized utopian society.
@@suebob16 The Banks's neighbor uses the word "Hottentot," which the Wokesters have now decided is offensive. So the British movie board decided to change the rating from "U," which is the same as the American "G," to "PG."
First and foremost, these are works of art. They aren't expected to influence poeple to behave less well than we expect people to behave nowadays. SIt back, realize they are of thier time, and enjoy the beauty that is still the majority of ALL the productions you want to suggest we dismiss.
NONE of these movies were shocking in their time. People really did think and act that way. Women DID allow themselves to be harmed and demeaned. They picked men who weren't fine upstanding guys who respected them, and stayed. The alternatives weren't great either when they couldn't pay the bills without a man and were openly pitied without a guy.
Especially because Annie and Frank were real people who were nothing like what is shown on stage. The "throwing" never happened. Pretty much the only thing the musical has in common with the real people are the names.
I was in bye bye birdie in summer camp back in either the summer of ,2003 -2004? and even then, we had to change the script around cuz it's a bit problematic. Hower the songs are fun I have to admit.
It was originally based on Elvis getting drafted in the 1950s - times were drastically different back then. Women couldn't even talk to their male doctors about their own health - their fathers or husbands talked to the doctor without including the woman at all. Women didn't learn how to balance a checkbook - it was the man's job. My grandparents were born in the 1910s, my parents were born in the mid 1930s, I was born in the 1970s & my son in the 1990s - there has been drastic changes in societal norms & pretty much every other aspect of life in the last 100 years, so there's definitely a difference between a 1950s film/play as it was written & performed then & how teachers/directors deal with the subject nowadays. I have seen Bye Bye Birdie on high school & community stages a few times & of course, the film multiple times. I remember seeing it performed at my school (my family has attended school there since my grandma through my son's generation) when I was in elementary school & my siblings were in high school in the early 1980s. I don't think anything was changed in the script from the movie at that time. I think the big difference is that the parents & grandparents of that time knew the film & experienced Elvis getting drafted. It was a big deal back then. Also, film & social standards have changed a lot since the 1980s. Today's teenagers probably don't know who Elvis was or understand what life was actually like for teenagers at the time.
@@kristenrock7783 I know some too, but he isn't as well known by kids now as he was closer to his death. As the Boomer's have aged & the older generation is dying off, less people are being exposed to Elvis's music & films. It happens to the other classic film actors & musicians too.
If these musicals haven't aged well, someone failed to tell Broadway about it. There's currently a touring revival of 'Funny Girl' traveling across the country. There was also recent Broadway revival of 'The Music Man' with Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster...and if you're staying with classic musicals, why are 'Guys and Dolls', 'On The Town' and 'Kiss Me Kate' included for their misogyny? They are a lot more vile in their attitude and treatment of women than the ten that are listed.
If anyone reads the short story "Pygmalion" by George Bernard Shaw, he also ends the play/story with her walking out and there's an epilogue where he tells everyone off for wanting Higgins and Eliza to marry in the first place and lets the readers know that she has enough self respect to get married to Freddie, who loves and wants her just the way she is.
Not the same thing but the portrayal of Karpathy is yet another problematic depiction of the "evil/weird" Eastern Europeans in western media. He's portrayed as a slovenly, sleazy con man. Of course the Hungarian gets portrayed like that. They literally call him dreadful
I disagree vehemently! These are all my favorites. They need to be accepted and understood in the time frame depicted of in which the show was written. I usually agree with your lists but this one left me angry. These are classics.
I love this word "problematic". It's term that has overtones of the Catholic or Marxist inquisitor examining something to check if it is doctrinally correct. If you think a stage production has elements in it that you don't approve of, simple - don't watch it. Go away and let other people enjoy in peace.
It's possible to acknowledge their flaws from time and enjoy them. Carousel is one I cant stand, but the others I enjoy a lot. Things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, and it's okay to discuss how some elements of these shows/movies reflected and perhaps perpetuated views that that should have been seen as wrong then, that we thankfully know better about now.
I love the score for "Carousel" but can't stand the book. The only show in this list I hate is "Gigi." The book is bad, but I also just don't like the music
@@LaLayla99Carousel, I agree with completely. Gigi, I can't get through. The love interest whining about how boring everything is bugs me too much. Like, there's a difference between a character that's going through emotional trouble and burnt out and someone that just doesn't like anything
I am not a subscriber but if I was I would unsubscribe. My mother has introduced me to many of these musicals and more when I was younger. My mother presented them to me not just for the story but for the music that was composed, choreography and the actors/actresses involved. Now I’m a 27 year old female and this has appreciate music of all kinds. My mother is in her 60’s and finds a lot of hate in your list. In particular in South Pacific the main female actress did have issues with a different race but eventually she had a change of heart and mind and we think that should be emphasized more than how could he take her back. Noticing other people’s comments, msmojo, this list is very insensitive to certain age range of people like my mom. I don’t know why musical theater of any time period is so criticized. WHY SO MUCH HATE?
Msmojo clearly did not watch those films to understand the characters, just found some problems with it to issue hate with the film. There was entertainment in these films even the songs, far better than these woke films that they push to us. Some people use ism, problematic just to complain. Bye Bye Birdie is classic, they tried a 90s reboot and it does not hit the same vibe as the 1963 one.
I was hoping that "Oklahoma!" would make this list, and you didn't disappoint. While it was one of the most iconic musicals, many aspects seem dated now, namely Curly talking Jud into killing himself, all so that he won't be around to ask Laurey out, Ado Annie slut shaming herself, and Curly getting away with accidentally killing Jud at the end.
@@here_we_go_again2571 The operas need their own list, lol. La Boheme, with Mimi being dumped by her boyfriend because she's sick but he doesn't actually think to warn her that she's dying or encourage her to go to the doctor. Or the whole mess of Il Trovatore. Or La Traviata.
"Oklahoma" was one of the few shows on this list that I agreed with, but they left out the most problematic part, which is exactly what you said. How the heck did they not bring up Curly's "brilliant" plan to convince Judd to commit suicide?
The whole point in film is that it captures a moment in time. That includes the views and sensibilities. It appalls me that we should try and judge them against today’s standards and ‘updating’ them is ridiculous. Give us credit to understand that things were different then without sanitising or offering a disclaimer. I love these old films and we shouldn’t apologise for them. If we try and erase the past we will never learn from it.
I am surprised that Seven Brides For Seven Brothers (1954) is not on this list. The plot literally involves a bunch of brothers kidnapping a bunch of women from their homes to take them up to a snowed-in cabin. Supposedly, they ALL fall in love with each other by the end, but it's really troublesome.
You're right on about most of these... but the read on "Music Man" is way off. Beneath its Main Street, USA veneer, Music Man is wised-up and way ahead of its time. Marian is refusing to be slut-shamed over rumors that she had a thing with Miser Madison (not to mention a strong subtext that her "brother" Winthrop might be her child out of wedlock). Harold Hill only gets away with his con because of the vanity and small-mindedness of the folks of River City, until he realizes he's just as deluded as they are. He stops trying to take advantage of Marian as "the sadder but wiser girl" and actually becomes the bandleader he pretended to be. Whatever Marian is, she is not a traditional musical ingenue: she's an idealist, but she also has everyone's number, and she's not who people take her for. Besides, the show is just plain fun. But yeah, Carousel is pretty screwed up.
You are not alone. It messed a lot of people up. Which is why there were so many problems back then in relationships. Men and women were taught to be so different from each other. Then they were expected to live 'happily ever after' together for the next 25+ years of marriage . Many were doomed. A truly happy marriage was very rare. I know my father treated my mother badly and she wanted to divorce him. But, until 1974 where I live, if a woman divorced her husband he would get all of the money and assets. The wife was left with nothing and no way to feed her children. So my mother stayed for many years in a loveless marriage with a man who publicly ridiculed and embarrassed her. And he was worse in private. And everyone knew but no one did anything to help because "it wasn't their business ". Another message of the times.
I have to disagree with you about "South Pacific." The whole point of the play is make a statement against racism and bigotry, and the best way to do that is to have a racist character realize her mistake. Nellie Forbush's thoughts: 1. "Oh, you killed a man? Well, that's not so bad." 2. "What, you were married to a POLYNESIAN woman?! That's unforgivable! I'm outta here!" 3. "What an idiot I was!" The play also points out that no one is BORN with racist attitudes -- they have to be "Carefully Taught" before they get too old.
This is the first Mojo video I've given a thumbs down. You do have it in for R&H. But what makes your picks and evaluations so ham-fisted is their blindness to the deeper elements of the shows you diss. Won't go into them all, but South Pacific serves as a good example. Do people fall out of love due to one ugly side of their loved one's personality? Oh, please. If you think so, you've never been in love. Meanwhile, Nellie realizes how wrong she's been when she's able to deeply empathize with the very people against whom she was bigoted. If you imagine that message hasn't aged well, you're a bigot yourself.
This is officially the worst MsMojo list ever. How many musicals has whoever put this together actually watched/heard? Most of these are either not problematic because they were, at the time, fully aware of and addressing/satirizing their issues--i.e., the gender politics in "My Fair Lady"--or, because there is no issue at all: Are we to believe that the only time a powerful woman has fallen and pined for a man not worthy of her began and ended with "Funny Girl"?! Please. Aside from the fact that Brice really did fall for him, I'm going to make a wild statement that this kind of thing still happens all the time. I'll give you the hoary tropes of "The King and I" and, particularly, "Carousel," and they should be discussed, but they can't have aged "especially poorly" given that they are still performed regularly and making people cry. There are so many musicals that date so badly they can no longer be done, and you could have made a hilarious, educational video of those. This one blows.
I think the relationship between Harold Hill and Marian was more complex than it originally seemed. I think Harold originally decided to pursue Marian because, as a piano teacher, she had a background in music and could easily expose him as a fraud - so he wanted her on his side, so to speak. (Of course, her extreme attractiveness made the job more pleasant for him :)) Marian despised Harold at first, and her feelings began to change only when she saw what a positive effect he had on her withdrawn little brother. She later told Harold that she'd done some library research and had known the truth about him since three days after his arrival - and Harold, after realizing that Marian kept his secret, decided to remain behind and face the consequences for his actions. (By that point another traveling salesman had informed the townspeople of Harold's chicanery.) As he told Marian's brother Winthrop, "I can't go, Winthrop. For the first time I got my foot caught in the door." Both Marian and Harold -and indeed, the whole town - changed for the better.
The thing about the elements of these stories that have aged poorly is that they are learning opportunties; they show us bad behavior and thoughts of the past, as well as let us get a sense of how far we've come, as well as how far we have to go. My grandmother LOVED musicals and she taught me a lot while watching them. As an example, the first time I was aware of racism, was my grandmother explaining plot points to me in the musical Showboat
These critiques are valid but a bit myopic. We don't need to defend the sexism, racism, and obvious cluelessness of the past, but greatness can be found in a few of these musical. But the genius is in the songs in a way such that for a few of these musicals the lyricists and composers were clever enough to critique the bigotry they knew were part of the book/story. In Funny Lady for example, you have Fanny Brice singing a song of clear feminist potential: "Don't Rain on My Parade." Just read some of these lyrics and tell me that Barbra Streisand did not take the role because she knew she could put into Fanny Brice's story, the one of resistance: Don't tell me not to fly, I simply got to If someone takes a spill, it's me and not you Who told you you're allowed to rain on my parade? I'm gonna live and live now! Get what I want, I know how! One roll for the whole shebang! One throw that bell will go clang Eye on the target and wham One shot, one gun shot and bam! Hey, Mr. Arnstein, here I am I'll march my band out, I beat my drum And if I'm fanned out, your turn at bat, sir At least I didn't fake it, hat, sir Guess I didn't make it Get ready for me love, 'cause I'm a "comer" I simply gotta march, my heart's a drummer Nobody, no nobody, is gonna rain on my parade! If that's not a feminist song, I don't know what is. Despite some of the clear offense proffered by the studios and directors, a great actor can make a role subversive and clearly play against the bigotry to reveal the power of the very person who is supposed to have none. That is one of the take home messages of Funny Girl. A musical, like Funny Girl, though featuring a sexist cad like Mr. Arnstein is really not about him. It's about a woman who survives despite him, and has the strength to leave. Any actor worth her salt who plays Fanny Brice will use the power of her portrayal to expose the very sexism inherent in the story. That's what Barbra Streisand did. She took a role that spoke to the repression of women and made the movie and the story much more than the sum of its parts.
Yes it is quite the heartwarming lesson for girls. In order to become popular and get your man, you need to drop the wholesome act and dress like a slut.
I love the music man for its songs, but even as a kid the first time I saw it, I wondered why Marian fell for him. She had straight up proof he was a con artist. She even had a witness who flat out told her that Hill always bails after he makes his sales and yet she defended him because he was nice to her brother.
A lot of it had to do with the fact the he was able to break through to her younger brother when nobody else could. She saw him through different eyes then.
What an embarrassing and clueless list. Stories about perfect people are boring. Character flaws are supposed to just that - flaws and not recommendations on how to live your life. Next go after Hamilton because there were no Asians in the cast, why don't you?
I'm sure future generations will judge today's films & TV shows in a similar way. I can only imagine what future generations will say about all of the unscripted crap that's out there now. You cannot force today's standards on films created many decades ago! Lots of the musicals won awards & were critically praised at the time of their release. If you ever took a History of Film class, you would know that pretty much all of the film archives have outdated depictions because society changes over time. Hollywood isn't the only film industry location that has outdated topics on their films - it happens everywhere. Old films give us a look into the world at an earlier time. We have evolved as a society, but the old films stay the same. Lots of todays content that sometimes forces diversity into places where it wasn't actually at in a historical sense will probably be scrutinized as inaccurate & probably won't age well either. Rewriting history isn't necessarily a good thing. You have to learn from the history in order to improve the lives of every generation. Old musicals are nostalgic to me as I spent a lot of time growing up in the 1970s & 1980s watching them with my mom. Films are a way to escape reality for a couple hours & be entertained. You will get more out of them by watching classic films without judging them for any current societal norms - they are called classic fims because they were made a long time ago when lives were different. I'm 50+ now & so much has changed in the world just in my lifetime - in many categories. I have watched films from my family's various generations - starting with my grandparents through the generations past mine & they almost all have something in them that's considered taboo now. You cannot judge something historical by current standards & you cannot change history, so learn from it & do better yourself.
Favorite musicians: The rocky horror picture show Little shop of horrors Cannibal: the musical Phantom of the paradise Sweeney todd Repo the genetic opera
I didn't get that from South pacific at all. I thought that it was more that he had kids he hadn't told her about, in general, not because they were half islander.
I love musicals from all eras, but I'm particularly fond of Golden Age/ Rodgers and Hammerstein so this struck a nerve with me. Here's my take on these. Music Man: From the very start Marian knows that Harold Hill is a con artist, and she's not going to put up with any of his BS. Yes, if you choreograph Marian the Librarian badly, it's going to look problematic onstage, but if it's done well, it's an incredibly fun and rousing number. Marian has the upper hand in the relationship from the very start, since she has proof of Harold Hill's scam. She changes her mind about him when she sees the joy that the idea of a band in bringing to River City. Greg had the chance to get away, but instead chooses to stay with Marian because he has his "foot caught in the door" risking the wrath of all River City. The "outdated, eye role of an ending" is about the development of the characters: Winthrop, previously unhappy, and insecure comes out of his shell and is proudly playing in the band, the other stubborn Iowans are overjoyed to hear their children playing (not very good) music. Marian has found her white knight. Marian defends Greg because of the happiness he has brought the town all summer with the anticipation of a band. At its heart, the story is about how the arts can uplift a society, the love story is prominent too, but it's more nuanced than that. King and I: The emphasis on the writers of the show being white men seems irrelevant. the musical is based off a novel, which is in turn, based off Anna Leonowens real life. It had already been adapted into a film at that point, Rodgers and Hammerstein writing a musical based off a previously existing work shouldn't put them at fault for it misrepresenting colonialism. Yul Brynner, while not being Thai, was from East Asia, his performance isn't exaggerated or stereotypical, and he was incredibly talented. South Pacific: This one confused me the most... what is considered outdated about South Pacific today is the stereotypical depiction of Bloody Mary, which, again, can be solved by the way the actress portrays the character. The show was extremely progressive at its time, and still is today. The message of the musical is that all people are people, regardless of their race. This was not a popular opinion in 1948. The song "You've Got to be Carefully Taught" is potentially the most progressive, and controversial song in all musical theater. A song about racism not being second nature, and is instead learned, was not something a lot of audiences wanted to hear. When the show toured the south, local government wanted the song cut from the show. Rodgers and Hammerstein however, didn't back down, and made sure that the show wasn't performed to segregated audiences. Nellie's character growth is part of what makes the musical so brilliant. This idea that racism comes from inside us and is beyond our control is disproved by Nellie. This "little hick" from Arkansas willing to change her problematic viewpoint shows that anyone has the capacity to change. Nellie spending time with Emile's kid shows how committed she is. Previously Nellie was borderline scared of the idea of Emile having Polynesian children, and here she is holding hands with them, and singing in their language, acting as the mother figure they're missing. All of this occurs while Emile is on a dangerous mission, presumably he might not come back. Nellie is doing this of her own free will, with the mindset that she still might not end up with the wonderful guy she's in love with. This is beyond redemption, Emile can rightfully forgive Nellie because he can see all that she did in her willingness to change. Another thing is Rodgers and Hammerstein were taking a huge risk by producing this show at all. Audiences wanting to see a musical were not expecting to be lectured on social justice during their night at the theater. This whole project could have been a huge flop, but the writers were set on writing a musical with a strong, much needed message. Oklahoma: This show was beyond revolutionary to the musical theater world. It set the framework for essentially every modern musical we enjoy today. No previous work showed this much attention to detail in its characters. so attacking the female characters in the show really feels like it comes out of left field. Laurey is very adamant that she doesn't need a man to make her happy, she makes it quite obvious during "Many a New Day" Jud storms onto the farm, crashing Laurey's wedding, and puts both Laurey and Curley's life at stake by setting fire to a field of straw. The musical makes it quite clear who's in the right. Carousel and My Fair Lady are both much more complicated. @JDraper has done a fabulous video essay on My Fair Lady that's worth checking out. As for the others, all musicals from this time, are just that, from a different time. Yes parts of them need to be tweaked; the wa tan ye bit in Music Man for example, it's an offensive portrayal of Native Americans that doesn't add anything to the storyline whatsoever, so removing it is for the best. Still, these are classic pieces of art, so it's important to try to produce them with as much integrity to the original as possible. It's a delicate line, Bartlett Sher, director of the recent South Pacific, Kind and I, My Fair Lady, and Camelot revivals is very good at this. At the end of the day, these are older stories that would not be written today. This is part of what makes them appealing. These are stories that have survived the test of time, and still manage to remain relevant and entertain their audiences, up to 70+ years later.
As a transgender woman, I have a love/hate relationship with the song “How Lovely to be Woman” from Bye Bye Birdie. I cringe at the outdated sexist lines but I love gender affirmation lines.
It was a different time and place. The two worst musicals were “GiGi” and “Seven Brides for Seven Brothers”. I loved all of the other musicals you mentioned. They are classics. I do not have a problem with them.
Wow - this was the worst . 1. What do you have against redemption? A character MUST show they are bad before they can learn. Immature thoughts in this all the way around about story arc. 2. Half those shows were written long before our now understood sensibilities. Should they be thrown out because the writers couldn't write for an audience 50+years in the future? 3. "It's just about two men fighting over a woman." What? That's almost every movie and TV show ever. Poor logic, bad writing, and fake outrage. I love you Ms. Mojo but do better.
Ummm...Seven Brides For Seven Brothers doesn't get a mention...?! Even as a child watching this movie in the early 70's I thought it was terrible. So a man can kidnap you as a young woman, make you marry him because he wants it, even though you don't, and probably rape you? And if your family can't help you then that's it. That's your life? And nothing happens to the man? Worst movie ever on the treatment of young women. Worst message ever for young men, encouraging stalking, kidnap and rape of young females.
I don't understand the obsession, both here and elsewhere, with taking the past and criticizing it endlessly. You realize that, by doing so, you keep something in the public consciousness that you CLAIM to want to de-emphasize. Moreso, you take something whose meaning was nuanced and unique to its time and deconstruct it so simplistically that you basically ignore all the other aspects of both the time the movie was new and the other aspects of the film itself. MsMojo is not the arbiter of social acceptability and political correctness. Yeah, this is supposed to be entertainment, but let's not pretend you aren't trying to provoke thought as well, let alone influence and steer public opinion. You can do that in other ways, without listicals detailing why you don't like things, or at least without so many of them throughout each year. Too many of your top lists are things you want us not to think of anymore. So by all means, keep reminding us of all those things, repeatedly. That will help us forget, for sure.
The first thing wrong with The King and I is the story it was based on was about 75% fiction trying to pass itself of as true. Yes, she was a teacher in the palace - and that's about it.
My Fair Lady will always be one of my favorite musicals; there's a reason some of these are classics. Despite some parts aging poorly, they have enduring characters and qualities you are ignoring.
4:14 Harold Hill wasn't pursuing Marian for love, he was conning her. The Music Man is ahead of its time seeing how Marian is on the outskirts of respectable society for even appearing to be, uh, the "sadder but wiser girl" with the Town's wealthiest patron. She wasn't... not that it matters if she was.... she probably was. PLUS, Marian was defending Harold Hill against his own desires, you can tell their roles changed when the two singers switched their character songs, the confident 76 Trombones and the submissive Til There was You. Who wrote this entry, they need to bone up on... metatext, subtext, metaphor... let's call it paying attention.
I'd be very happy for a Shaw Scholar to correct me (I do have an M.F.A. in Theatre and still very open to learning), but it's my understanding of "My Fair Lady" and more importantly it's source material, Shaw's "Pygmalion", is meant to condemn the English Class System. And how people are stuck in it because of their speech. Remember that 'Professor Henry Higgins' makes the point that 'a lady working in a shop' has to use better English than the women she waits on. In fact, in "My Fair Lady" 'Higgins' has great fun in his ability (through Eliza) to make fools of the upper-class.
I am really tired of people wilfully misinterpreting "Thank heaven for little girls." If you listen to the lyrics, he's thanking heaven for little girls because they GROW UP in the most delightful ways. He is not being a pedophile.
It's like the pop song, "be good to your daughters, who grow up to be mothers".
Yes! The song goes on to say "Those little eyes, so helpless and appealing/ One day will flash and send you crashing through the ceiling!" The singer (Honore Lachaille, uncle of Gaston, the film's hero) goes out with adult women - not children.
Exactly! It's only creepy if you've pre-decided that any movie/song older than 20 years old must be twisted.
People need to chill and understand that’s part of the past, it’s not fair to judge something that happens 60 years or more ago under the today life standards. All these musicals were amazing with a lot of good content, and excellent talents. One day our current times will be under the microscope too.
Egg-zackly!
Agreed
Yes, but there are those now who would like to go back to those "good old days" that were really only good for rich white men.
Exactly what I logged in to comment! I took classes about the history of film & theater in school - you have to look at the period it was made in or depicting, not modern standards. Lots of the old musicals won a lot of awards & critical acclaim when they were released. The older films are part of the history of their art forms - just like other historical artifacts. Some are actually pretty good if you sit & watch them without 2024 goggles on! Old Hollywood films aren't alone in their depiction of the way life was at the time - foreign films have it too - lots of content is currently taboo because of the societal changes in the decades between making & now. Tv & film made nowadays isn't always true to the reality of period or historical topics & will probably be judged later for inaccurate history.
We've turned into a society that is offended by every little thing & some people just like to make noise until everyone knows their opinion. If you don't like messages older films or tv shows depict, don't watch them - stick with the unscripted crap that's everywhere nowadays & I am sure future generations will consider "reality" content obsolete & unacceptable later.
Exactly. We've become so weird with all this woke an politically correct stuff. It's not like any of those musicals had blackface or anything like that and some of them were and are based on actual people and events!
Sometimes, truth is ugly. Funny Girl is based on a true story. She made the mistake of many intelligent, talented women of investing in an unworthy man. I mean, poet Sylvia Plath killed herself when she realized her husband, narcissist poet laureate Ted Hughes, would not leave his mistress for her.
Truth sometimes is ugly -- but Funny Girl warps Fannie Brice's story (including her relationship with Arnstein) so much that it edges over into fiction. The fact that one of Brice's sons was a producer of the stage version had a lot to do with it making her (quite interesting) life story into a cliched "Good Woman Loves the Wrong Man" tale. Plus the score (excepting "People" and "Don't Rain on My Parade") is pretty meh. The problem with Funny Girl isn't that it hasn't aged well; it's that it was never a very good musical to start -- it was a hit because of a great lead performance, but that was all it had really going for it.
Whereas I normally enjoy the insight of these lists, especially when it comes to musicals, but this list in particular drips of narrow mindedness like many contemporary commentaries on past artistic efforts in numerous genres. These are snapshots of the times and seeing them from that perspective actually says something about where we’ve come from and where we’ve gone. And besides the songs, “You have to be Carefully Taught” from South Pacific has lyrics that at the time were boar rocking and insightful.
Lt. Cable sings You've got to be carefully taught out of anger and frustration. He, too, like Nellie, is trying to let go of old prejudices and ways of thinking.
I don’t like the implication you all are making about South Pacific. Are you saying we can’t forgive people for their wrong attitudes, especially if they redeem and change themselves for the better, later? It looks to me like that’s what happens.
South Pacific could be replaced on this list by Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. It's the one Rodgers and Hammerstein that could probably be done today if it's approached with care. Also throwing out the musical that gave us "Carefully Taught" would be a crime.
She left out that a very underage girl (Liat) became the object of desire of an adult navy sailor. Considering that her family would marry her off because of the family's poverty and, it's just wrong on several levels.
@@The_Dudester it’s been so long since I’ve seen that musical, I couldn’t remember all the details, like that one, for instance.
@@The_Dudester Yes about the age problem, but I disagree with the poverty part. IIRC, Liat's mother, Bloody Mary, does a good business peddling things to US sailors, and offers to bring in all the money they need so Cable and Liat can "do what comes naturally" all the time.
@@What_Makes_Climate_Tick And the war lasted how many years? Bloody Mary knew that the war would last a short period, and then what?
Uh, why exactly shouldn't a "Period Piece" accurately portray people of the period?
Exactly! They are true to their own social norms & so much has evolved since then. There's a nostalgic component to them too. What's next, stripping classic films of their awards? If you don't want to get a glimpse into 50+ year old movie making techniques, musical styles, societal norms, etc don't watch anything that was released in the past.
Hollywood seems to like recreating old films & there is usually a reason why the remakes aren't as beloved as the originals. Hopefully nobody goes back & "fixes" the original versions with today's technology!
@@hollyheikkinen4698 Sadly, it looks like Disney has started to do that.
@@kennethwayne6857 I guess I am torn about editing the Disney classics - kids won't pick up on the stuff that adults would, they will watch the movie & enjoy it without the social criticism adults notice. So much has changed in animation, films, special effects, etc in the last 50 years! I'm not sure editing out the 'bad' stuff from the originals seem unnecessary - they have the tools to reanimate the story & update it if they want to bring it up to today's standards. It will obviously make money even if they have to basically start over. Most Fairy Tales in history have problematic themes in today's views, so leave the classic versions alone & recreate it if it's necessary. I don't think using AI to fix the problem segments is a good idea (anything I have seen so far is noticeable) & it seems disrespectful to the voice actors, animators & everyone who worked on the original films! Plus, didn't the SAG- AFTRA strike & new contract
agreement solve the AI question?
It's a Miss Mojo list, so it's hardly to be taken seriously - all highly-opinionated, out of context, reactive and far too often poorly researched. Next ...
@@itsjohn2000 So right. They're responding to what they think people want.
I love and watch all of these movies with the clear understanding that they were made in a different time. Doesn’t change the beauty of the music, the costumes and the sets.
So you must really hate Jane Austen stories too. It's dangerous and misleading to look at these through a modern lens - that's how books get banned too. I disagree with most of the comments and criticisms you've made. West Side Story has "I Have a Love", Oliver has "As Long as he needs Me' - a gorgeous song that is a tribute to an abuser while the entire story is about training street kids to be criminals...the list goes on but a lot of these plot points opened people's eyes in their day, even though they were pure entertainment. Gigi was based on true stories and in the end she escaped her fate because she was a strong woman. I'd take any of these stories and lyrics over the hate filled, violent , misogynistic songs that are hits today.
Key words "aged poorly"
People often infantilize those times by suggesting folks didn't critique these musicals for their problematic content. People were not sitting ducks accepting things. They pushed back. There were plenty of people back then calling out the ignorant aspects of these musicals. The primary difference between then and now is the internet, which adds more voices and disseminates information quickly.
Totally disagree with your ideas. Even if they are not sanitised it opens up conversations about how things were. Looking back on today's movies in 50 years time will they be found to be excessively violet and lacking in ethics.
Well said, Sparky! I agree completely. This voice-over woman is displaying her intolerance and her quickness to judge (and to judge thoughtlessly). She should try thinking things through.
I have to agree. I grew up on these shows, and they are beloved not because of their social implications, but because of the beauty of the songs themselves. Today's music is not even worth listening to, and is more demeaning than these old pieces.
These was made for the times. They will always be outdated to some new generations. You can’t change that fact.
Agreed!
They are not outdated. They are still being done all over the country. So, this list is bull puckey.
In South Pacific, Watchmojo says that even though the lead actress has racist views, she grows and comes to terms with her leading man’s 2 half Polynesian children by the end of the story, but because she was born narrow minded, he shouldnt reward her with his time. So is that where we are in 2024? Condemning everyone who has faults EVEN IF they come to realize they are wrong? Thats mind blowing. I hope if I ever make mistakes, im not judged that harshly!
Complaining that something that was created decades ago is “offensive” or “outdated” by today’s standards is pointless.
THANK YOU!
I don't even know what the point of this video is. We all know that these movies and all movies from the 40s 50s whatever reflect the society they were created in. These are some of my favorite movies. I love my fair lady and have loved it since I first thought when I was about four, I Love the music man, I love anything by lerner and leowe, I can overlook the flaws. Better that than unmitigated completely brutal violence and graphic sex scenes that require that you send your 6-year-old out of the room.
EXACTLY!
(I see the channel didn't
delete your post) I think
that my post will probably
be deleted BWAHAhaha!
🤣🤣
Couldn’t agree more!
It was offensive back then 🙄 but of course people don’t want to acknowledge that. Whether we are using standards back then and now, it was still wrong.
There's a big difference between the Isms in "Annie Get Your Gun" and the Ism in "South Pacific". For one thing, the characters in "South Pacific" are far more complex as is the music & lyrics. Also, as many commenters have pointed out, the characters all move past their initial prejudices, which doesn't seem to be the case in today's so-called Woke/MAGA society. But then "You Have to Be Carefully Taught."
Also, 'South Pacific' is about entirely fictional characters, and 'Annie Get Your Gun' completely butchers the story of real life people. Frank Butler was actually hugely supportive of Annie Oakley's talent and became her manager, instead of becoming a jealous manchild who has to be placated.
One of my all time favourite songs is “You have to be carefully taught”. Was appropriate then and even more today!
@@diannespalding6542 Wish you were wrong 🤗
@@gracehowell. I don't know why but "Annie Gets Your Gun' triggers me for all kinds of reasons. Exactly what you mentioned plus, the way MGM treated Judy when they forced her to do the movie then made a big deal about her being unfit....
Reba McEntire was supposed to be good in it; but then she was a fan of the real Annie Oakley and tried to bring some realism to the whole production.
@@11cabadgerI mean, the racist elements are very much problematic, but would've at least been realistic at the time. Maybe MsMojo should do a list of top 10 most inaccurate musical biopics of all time? 'Night and Day' would possibly top the list, along with 'Annie Get Your Gun'. Ooh, 'Calamity Jane' is so inaccurate, though...
This list is a little like the criticism it levels at these musicals. Not everything said is wrong or self-righteous... just enough to be annoying. As far as my favorite musical on the list (I'm not a fan of all of them), The Music Man is about a smooth operator, true, but at the end of the film, he has changed and is willing to suffer the consequences of his actions if it means he can be with the woman he loves. As far as your eye roll at such a happy ending, if you're looking for realism I'd suggest something that doesn't have performers bursting into song at various plot points.
Exactly Marian motivates Hill to become a better man it's not like she up and joins him on the con circuit
Ms Mojo has a problem with character growth.
And the reason Marion changes her feelings about him is that she suddenly becomes aware of the positive influence Hill is having on the town, especially her little brother, despite knowing Hill is a fraud.
I eye rolled so many times in this video. Everything about this list was just so nit picky and stupid.
Nothing non-physical ages poorly. People's perceptions do and can't seem to comprehend that "then" is just as important as "now" in every way.
OT, but I love your profile pic. Captain Marvel (the original, Fawcett version) is my favorite character.
I can’t imagine a world without “Hello, Young Lovers” or “On the Street Where You Live.”
So women no longer fall in love with unworthy men … yeah, right!
Funny Girl, The King and I, and others were based on the lives of real people. And frankly, the current trend to shut down history because we've changed and it's "not acceptable" any more is frickin' annoying. Perhaps we should use even musicals as learning/teaching moments instead of banning them all together.
Exactly what some of my junior high and high school teachers did... I learned a great deal about the incidental and monumental realities of WWII through a free Saturday screening of "The Longest Day" provided for the entire eighth grade by my history teacher... KDM
I don’t care how “problematic” yall label any of these, they’re classics for a reason and I adore them all wholeheartedly and will never stop singing those gorgeous songs! 🩵
No one said you can’t enjoy these musicals……
Those old films are better than these woke films that are far more 'problematic' demonizing one group to elevate another for their woke agendas.
Yt women stay blowing off sexism. It's weird, like Stepford Wife. Do you think it gets you brownie points?
@@fundifferent1 They misuse the sexism card over nothing, but never play it when it applies to me. Nothing is wrong these musical films.
Okay, MsMojo, we get it! EVERY Rodgers and Hammerstein musical is problematic!
"The Sound of Music" wasn't listed (Thank God!).
@@disneyfan8178 Yup.
@@disneyfan8178if it had have been, I would have lost it
Yet. Give him time and he’ll find something wrong with it.@@disneyfan8178
And R&H's "Pipe Dream" includes a song called "The Happiest House on the Block"--a house of prostitution.
While I agree that rhe plots can be/are problematic, the scores are simply gorgeous and will live on forever. One can also say that "Oliver!" has problems regarding the abusive relationship between Nancy and Bill.
Abusive, and when Nancy stands up for Oliver and herself, and tries to get Oliver away, Bill kills her. Nevermind that she didn't 'peach', (betray him to the authorities).
And while it makes sense that we shouldn't portray abusive relationships as healthy, Nancy loving her Bill was not uncommon then, and still isn't now. The relationship isn't shown as good, and Bill is a frightening menace, so now as then, it serves as a cautionary tale. Get away from such a person, you deserve better, and there are kind people who will help. You see it more in the book, but it's there in the play too.
seriously?! FUNNY GIRL is not only historically accurate for the 1920s - it reflects what Brice went through with her husband in real life.
Flaws aside, these musicals are timeless classics.
I enjoyed My Fair Lady and Music Man back in the 90's and they still seem good today. Same with The King and I, even when it scared me when the king whipped a girl when I saw it on stage with my family. I was surprised he didn't knowing the teacher was watching in the other versions
@@gianinabadami5341 Sweet. Same here
South Pacific - haven't you heard the song YOU HAVE TO BE TAUGHT TO HATE? Did you akip that part?
I've mixed emotions about your criticisms of some of the most iconic, world-wide favorite musicals. It's good to point out racism, misogyny, etc. But I saw many of these musicals growing up in the 1950s and love all of them. I saw strong women in an error when women were homemakers and powerless. I saw despicable men change character or suffer the consequences. I learned that you've got to be taught. And I do thank heaven for little girls. Not because they are girls. Because they grow up as women to love. Without one, you don't have the other. Both must be treated with dignity. Gigi holds out for marriage and gets it.
One musical you left out, maybe because it wasn't made into a movie, was The Most Happy Fella. In that musical, Tony was way older than Rosabella, similar to the age difference in South Pacific. The Most Happy Fella was my first and possibly favorite Broadway show. My mother took me to see it.
My white sister from a white family was happily married for years to a wonderful black man who was 20 years older than her. They were married for years until his death. Another sister married a man over 20 years older than herself. Also happily married for years until he died.
When you denigrate the age difference in partners, my experience finds that problematic.
I understand that the culture of the past seeped into the musicals (and plays, and TV, and at work and at home, etc.), of the past, but the musicals you've mentioned mostly tried to move the needle to a better world. They certainly helped inspire me to honor strong women and not discriminate.
Also, I'm able to love a good Cinderella story and appreciate strong women at the same time. A man using wealth or position to control a poor woman is one thing. But having wealth or position and falling in love with a poor woman - what's wrong with that? In many sites, the man hides his wealth to be sure the woman loves him and not his money.
My mother became a widow at 35 in 1950, never remarried, and raised five children by herself (with some help from her widowed mother and the local church). My three sisters all grew up to be strong women like their mother.
My mom and I liked musicals more than the others, but I never heard her criticize any of those musicals (or operas). And I doubt very much she was brainwashed by Leave It to Beaver.
Anyway, musicals may raise disturbing issues, but those that do are better than boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl. And they often teach lessons of love, struggle, humility, dignity and harmony. All with incredibly beautiful music.
Feminist women over use those ims over petty things, but women never call out sexism from women towards men.
@@the1magageneral323 I would not use absolutes like "never," but I do believe there are people who accept only one side of an argument. Failure to understand both sides of an argument sides does not help arriving at the truth.
@@alandombrow584 Except it is true. When has Feminists ever called sexism from women who hate men? The answer is never.
If you aren't a raving, woke fool, then none of the past is a problem. Because you will understand that as humanity grows and learns standards change. We learn from the past, so throwing out anything slightly offensive means you never learn to be better.
On this platform, everyone is entitled to establish their opinions. This video does not represent my opinions regarding these movies.
Honestly, every time you make a list like this I take it as a must see movies list jajaja
That says more about you than her.
Apparently, you don’t believe in redemption arcs.
My Fair Lady may have punchable characters, but that's the point of the play! You cannot point out the problems of society if you do not show them.
This list backfired mightily. It made me want to immediately go and re-watch half these shows. *pops blue-ray into player*
I would've loved to see after Higgins asked Eliza "Where the devil are my slippers?" for Eliza to say "Have you looked up your bloomin' arse, you drunkin fool?"
That's more the way the original play did.
Haha, that would be awesome!
@@margaretforsey7763 I actually saw the abominable 2018 production, When Eliza boldly strode away, an entire coven cackled away. When I politely inquired how Eliza was going to repay the months and months of free elocution lessons she had received, which had transformed her life, or the free room and board, they were speechless, and then indignant. The point, of course, is that Eliza and Higgins have fallen rather deeply in love, and the inquiry about slippers is his way of inviting her into his world. Perish the thought of a little common sense.
@@FrankDudleyBerryJr 🥔
Bernard Shaw did not give the slipper ending. It was HOLLYWOOD that damaged the script by wanting to make it a "happily ever after" to suit US tastes. If you read the prologue to Pygmalion you can find what the insightful Mr Shaw thought about the future of Eliza.
King and I was not created by Rogers and Hammerstein as much as "Adapted" by them. They wrote a script and music, but this was based off "Anna and the King of Siam". While the sources are questionable, it was at least confirmed that "a white English woman" went to teach English to the children of the King of Siam. How is that "aged poorly" or is it just popular to say that?
What is considered public entertainment changes with social attitudes. Feeding Christans to lions was an attraction as were public executions and floggings. What this video is doing is akin to looking at a picture of your grandparents and shaming them for not being stylish or edgy. The idea that all musicals should become like Hamilton is enough to make me shudder. Give it a break and enjoy the brillance of the music.
Forty years from now, Hamilton will top many a list of bad plays or musicals or whatever. Today's offerings will be the negatives in the future.
@@laurellane1721 You won't even have to wait that long. Even though it's portrayed by a cast of diverse ethnic backgrounds some people already complain that it still is basically a story of "old white men".
This compilation is brought to you by the same class of people who have recently declared Mary Poppins to be offensive.
Exactly!
I don't understand their issue with Mary Poppins. The story establishes that Mr. Banks runs a strict household and is not as involved with his children as he should be. So it is up to Mary Poppins to get the ball rolling to liven up the family atmosphere. It is actually Burt who gets the children to understand how hard their father works for them and gently pushes Mr. Banks to realize that he needs to get to know his children before it's too late. It's the kind of theme that hasn't aged, so I don't understand the problem.
@@suebob16
The "problem" is that Cancel-culture,
P.C., Woke, DEI culture believes that
it is the only culture (way of living) that
is correct!
Most people pushing the above agendas
are cultural Marxists who want to change
the culture of Western civilization. They
do this by changing what is perceived as
the cultural norms (i.e. Marxist theory's
Cultural hegemony) this results in endless
protests, Drag-Queen story hours at public
libraries, Gay-Pride Parades, etc,, etc.,
etc
The goal is to destroy Western Civilization
as we know it and to replace it with the
cultural Marxist's own idealized utopian
society.
@@suebob16 The Banks's neighbor uses the word "Hottentot," which the Wokesters have now decided is offensive. So the British movie board decided to change the rating from "U," which is the same as the American "G," to "PG."
All my fav musicals, I know they haven’t aged well, but I still enjoy the music, costumes and try not to take most of them seriously! 🎶
Who EVER took musicals
seriously? Oh yes ... the
PC/woke brigade. {eyeroll}
First and foremost, these are works of art. They aren't expected to influence poeple to behave less well than we expect people to behave nowadays. SIt back, realize they are of thier time, and enjoy the beauty that is still the majority of ALL the productions you want to suggest we dismiss.
South Pacific tackled the problem of racism head on. Maybe you should listen to song "Carefully Taught". It's in the musical South Pacific.
And, yes, I gave this list a thumb's down!
Taking any piece of entertainment from the past and using current attitudes to judge it is bound to make you tired, and unlikely to be productive.
NONE of these movies were shocking in their time. People really did think and act that way. Women DID allow themselves to be harmed and demeaned. They picked men who weren't fine upstanding guys who respected them, and stayed. The alternatives weren't great either when they couldn't pay the bills without a man and were openly pitied without a guy.
It still goes on today. Many women today still put up with those kind of relationships. It isn't something that just happened in the past.
How could you ignore the fact that Annie throws the contest because no man will love a woman who could beat him. Incredibly sexiest!
Especially because Annie and Frank were real people who were nothing like what is shown on stage. The "throwing" never happened. Pretty much the only thing the musical has in common with the real people are the names.
QUIT TRYING TO REWRITE HISTORY…………when were these movies made?????? You can’t change history, you learn from history!
Especially South Pacific, which presents a good message for today!
Also stop trying to create bad reboots of classic more people like than hate(because some woke losers on Twitter think so).
I was in bye bye birdie in summer camp back in either the summer of ,2003 -2004? and even then, we had to change the script around cuz it's a bit problematic. Hower the songs are fun I have to admit.
It was originally based on Elvis getting drafted in the 1950s - times were drastically different back then. Women couldn't even talk to their male doctors about their own health - their fathers or husbands talked to the doctor without including the woman at all. Women didn't learn how to balance a checkbook - it was the man's job. My grandparents were born in the 1910s, my parents were born in the mid 1930s, I was born in the 1970s & my son in the 1990s - there has been drastic changes in societal norms & pretty much every other aspect of life in the last 100 years, so there's definitely a difference between a 1950s film/play as it was written & performed then & how teachers/directors deal with the subject nowadays. I have seen Bye Bye Birdie on high school & community stages a few times & of course, the film multiple times. I remember seeing it performed at my school (my family has attended school there since my grandma through my son's generation) when I was in elementary school & my siblings were in high school in the early 1980s. I don't think anything was changed in the script from the movie at that time. I think the big difference is that the parents & grandparents of that time knew the film & experienced Elvis getting drafted. It was a big deal back then. Also, film & social standards have changed a lot since the 1980s. Today's teenagers probably don't know who Elvis was or understand what life was actually like for teenagers at the time.
@@hollyheikkinen4698 I know many kids today who know, who Elvis is lol
@@kristenrock7783 I know some too, but he isn't as well known by kids now as he was closer to his death. As the Boomer's have aged & the older generation is dying off, less people are being exposed to Elvis's music & films. It happens to the other classic film actors & musicians too.
@@hollyheikkinen4698 I know a fairly good Elvis impersonator who was born in 2004.
If these musicals haven't aged well, someone failed to tell Broadway about it. There's currently a touring revival of 'Funny Girl' traveling across the country. There was also recent Broadway revival of 'The Music Man' with Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster...and if you're staying with classic musicals, why are 'Guys and Dolls', 'On The Town' and 'Kiss Me Kate' included for their misogyny? They are a lot more vile in their attitude and treatment of women than the ten that are listed.
South Pacific is against racism, Funny Girl is about a phenomenally successful woman who wasn't the only one to ever choose the wrong husband.
The most recent revival and tour of My Fair Lady did update the story. Eliza does walk out on Henry Higgins. It’s very satisfying!
If anyone reads the short story "Pygmalion" by George Bernard Shaw, he also ends the play/story with her walking out and there's an epilogue where he tells everyone off for wanting Higgins and Eliza to marry in the first place and lets the readers know that she has enough self respect to get married to Freddie, who loves and wants her just the way she is.
@@marieroberts5664 I love this!
I did want her to end up with Freddie.
@@marieroberts5664 It's not a short story. It's a play. Made into a movie in 1943 with Leslie Howard and Wendy Hiller.
Not the same thing but the portrayal of Karpathy is yet another problematic depiction of the "evil/weird" Eastern Europeans in western media. He's portrayed as a slovenly, sleazy con man. Of course the Hungarian gets portrayed like that. They literally call him dreadful
I disagree vehemently! These are all my favorites. They need to be accepted and understood in the time frame depicted of in which the show was written. I usually agree with your lists but this one left me angry. These are classics.
It’s like you missed the point entirely in each story. You want them written in synch with todays sensititivities.
I've always hated my fair lady, Higgins is such a POS
OK Boomer 😂
@@Kap00rwith2os yup. I’m 70 yrs old. Thank you for the title.
I agree with you! When watching these, you just had to understand the times. I still love these classics no matter what this video says.
A 13-minute video about 21st-century wokeness critiquing classic theatre and cinema.
I love this word "problematic". It's term that has overtones of the Catholic or Marxist inquisitor examining something to check if it is doctrinally correct. If you think a stage production has elements in it that you don't approve of, simple - don't watch it. Go away and let other people enjoy in peace.
I saw My Fair Lady in the 80s and the ending stumped me even then
If MsMojo thinks these are bad , I'd hate to think how they feel about Shakespeare!
Amen
It's possible to acknowledge their flaws from time and enjoy them. Carousel is one I cant stand, but the others I enjoy a lot. Things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, and it's okay to discuss how some elements of these shows/movies reflected and perhaps perpetuated views that that should have been seen as wrong then, that we thankfully know better about now.
I love the score for "Carousel" but can't stand the book. The only show in this list I hate is "Gigi." The book is bad, but I also just don't like the music
@@LaLayla99Carousel, I agree with completely. Gigi, I can't get through. The love interest whining about how boring everything is bugs me too much. Like, there's a difference between a character that's going through emotional trouble and burnt out and someone that just doesn't like anything
I am not a subscriber but if I was I would unsubscribe. My mother has introduced me to many of these musicals and more when I was younger. My mother presented them to me not just for the story but for the music that was composed, choreography and the actors/actresses involved. Now I’m a 27 year old female and this has appreciate music of all kinds. My mother is in her 60’s and finds a lot of hate in your list. In particular in South Pacific the main female actress did have issues with a different race but eventually she had a change of heart and mind and we think that should be emphasized more than how could he take her back. Noticing other people’s comments, msmojo, this list is very insensitive to certain age range of people like my mom. I don’t know why musical theater of any time period is so criticized. WHY SO MUCH HATE?
Msmojo clearly did not watch those films to understand the characters, just found some problems with it to issue hate with the film. There was entertainment in these films even the songs, far better than these woke films that they push to us. Some people use ism, problematic just to complain. Bye Bye Birdie is classic, they tried a 90s reboot and it does not hit the same vibe as the 1963 one.
I was hoping that "Oklahoma!" would make this list, and you didn't disappoint. While it was one of the most iconic musicals, many aspects seem dated now, namely Curly talking Jud into killing himself, all so that he won't be around to ask Laurey out, Ado Annie slut shaming herself, and Curly getting away with accidentally killing Jud at the end.
Would you say the same about
the great operas?
@@here_we_go_again2571 The operas need their own list, lol. La Boheme, with Mimi being dumped by her boyfriend because she's sick but he doesn't actually think to warn her that she's dying or encourage her to go to the doctor. Or the whole mess of Il Trovatore. Or La Traviata.
"Oklahoma" was one of the few shows on this list that I agreed with, but they left out the most problematic part, which is exactly what you said. How the heck did they not bring up Curly's "brilliant" plan to convince Judd to commit suicide?
The whole point in film is that it captures a moment in time. That includes the views and sensibilities. It appalls me that we should try and judge them against today’s standards and ‘updating’ them is ridiculous. Give us credit to understand that things were different then without sanitising or offering a disclaimer. I love these old films and we shouldn’t apologise for them. If we try and erase the past we will never learn from it.
I am surprised that Seven Brides For Seven Brothers (1954) is not on this list. The plot literally involves a bunch of brothers kidnapping a bunch of women from their homes to take them up to a snowed-in cabin. Supposedly, they ALL fall in love with each other by the end, but it's really troublesome.
You're right on about most of these... but the read on "Music Man" is way off. Beneath its Main Street, USA veneer, Music Man is wised-up and way ahead of its time. Marian is refusing to be slut-shamed over rumors that she had a thing with Miser Madison (not to mention a strong subtext that her "brother" Winthrop might be her child out of wedlock). Harold Hill only gets away with his con because of the vanity and small-mindedness of the folks of River City, until he realizes he's just as deluded as they are. He stops trying to take advantage of Marian as "the sadder but wiser girl" and actually becomes the bandleader he pretended to be. Whatever Marian is, she is not a traditional musical ingenue: she's an idealist, but she also has everyone's number, and she's not who people take her for. Besides, the show is just plain fun.
But yeah, Carousel is pretty screwed up.
The trope of a guy essentially stalking and pestering the girl until she likes him messed me up as a kid.
Still happening today. Leonard and Penny. Big Bang Theory.
You are not alone. It messed a lot of people up. Which is why there were so many problems back then in relationships. Men and women were taught to be so different from each other. Then they were expected to live 'happily ever after' together for the next 25+ years of marriage . Many were doomed. A truly happy marriage was very rare.
I know my father treated my mother badly and she wanted to divorce him. But, until 1974 where I live, if a woman divorced her husband he would get all of the money and assets. The wife was left with nothing and no way to feed her children. So my mother stayed for many years in a loveless marriage with a man who publicly ridiculed and embarrassed her. And he was worse in private. And everyone knew but no one did anything to help because "it wasn't their business ". Another message of the times.
@@jennym007
Projecting much?
Many people had happy
marriages throughout
human history -- Many
also had bad marriages.
It is the human condition.
@@rntypical
All of the relationships
in Big Bang Theory are
creepy!
@ stingrey1571
Were the films/plays your
main source of information
about life?
I have to disagree with you about "South Pacific." The whole point of the play is make a statement against racism and bigotry, and the best way to do that is to have a racist character realize her mistake. Nellie Forbush's thoughts:
1. "Oh, you killed a man? Well, that's not so bad."
2. "What, you were married to a POLYNESIAN woman?! That's unforgivable! I'm outta here!"
3. "What an idiot I was!"
The play also points out that no one is BORN with racist attitudes -- they have to be "Carefully Taught" before they get too old.
This is the first Mojo video I've given a thumbs down. You do have it in for R&H. But what makes your picks and evaluations so ham-fisted is their blindness to the deeper elements of the shows you diss. Won't go into them all, but South Pacific serves as a good example. Do people fall out of love due to one ugly side of their loved one's personality? Oh, please. If you think so, you've never been in love. Meanwhile, Nellie realizes how wrong she's been when she's able to deeply empathize with the very people against whom she was bigoted. If you imagine that message hasn't aged well, you're a bigot yourself.
This is officially the worst MsMojo list ever. How many musicals has whoever put this together actually watched/heard? Most of these are either not problematic because they were, at the time, fully aware of and addressing/satirizing their issues--i.e., the gender politics in "My Fair Lady"--or, because there is no issue at all: Are we to believe that the only time a powerful woman has fallen and pined for a man not worthy of her began and ended with "Funny Girl"?! Please. Aside from the fact that Brice really did fall for him, I'm going to make a wild statement that this kind of thing still happens all the time. I'll give you the hoary tropes of "The King and I" and, particularly, "Carousel," and they should be discussed, but they can't have aged "especially poorly" given that they are still performed regularly and making people cry. There are so many musicals that date so badly they can no longer be done, and you could have made a hilarious, educational video of those. This one blows.
What about the racism in Thoroughly Modern Millie? I recently rewatched with my Mum and it was utterly painful!
Almost all of Audri Hepburn's movies. The age differences are jaw-dropping.
My fair lady is an allegory to the problems of women and the issues of illiteracy in the Eastern hemisphere
This list is what happens when you have to continually crank out "content."
I think the relationship between Harold Hill and Marian was more complex than it originally seemed. I think Harold originally decided to pursue Marian because, as a piano teacher, she had a background in music and could easily expose him as a fraud - so he wanted her on his side, so to speak. (Of course, her extreme attractiveness made the job more pleasant for him :)) Marian despised Harold at first, and her feelings began to change only when she saw what a positive effect he had on her withdrawn little brother. She later told Harold that she'd done some library research and had known the truth about him since three days after his arrival - and Harold, after realizing that Marian kept his secret, decided to remain behind and face the consequences for his actions. (By that point another traveling salesman had informed the townspeople of Harold's chicanery.) As he told Marian's brother Winthrop, "I can't go, Winthrop. For the first time I got my foot caught in the door." Both Marian and Harold -and indeed, the whole town - changed for the better.
This is ridiculous and insulting to many theatre masterpieces. Why not have a go at Shakespeare too!
The thing about the elements of these stories that have aged poorly is that they are learning opportunties; they show us bad behavior and thoughts of the past, as well as let us get a sense of how far we've come, as well as how far we have to go. My grandmother LOVED musicals and she taught me a lot while watching them. As an example, the first time I was aware of racism, was my grandmother explaining plot points to me in the musical Showboat
God only know how the people years from now will look upon the judgemental stupidity of the people from our times.
I hope they get they get a good laugh from it all!
A couple of honorable mentions I can think of:
Seven Brides For Seven Brothers and Kiss Me Kate.
These critiques are valid but a bit myopic. We don't need to defend the sexism, racism, and obvious cluelessness of the past, but greatness can be found in a few of these musical. But the genius is in the songs in a way such that for a few of these musicals the lyricists and composers were clever enough to critique the bigotry they knew were part of the book/story.
In Funny Lady for example, you have Fanny Brice singing a song of clear feminist potential: "Don't Rain on My Parade." Just read some of these lyrics and tell me that Barbra Streisand did not take the role because she knew she could put into Fanny Brice's story, the one of resistance:
Don't tell me not to fly, I simply got to
If someone takes a spill, it's me and not you
Who told you you're allowed to rain on my parade?
I'm gonna live and live now!
Get what I want, I know how!
One roll for the whole shebang!
One throw that bell will go clang
Eye on the target and wham
One shot, one gun shot and bam!
Hey, Mr. Arnstein, here I am
I'll march my band out, I beat my drum
And if I'm fanned out, your turn at bat, sir
At least I didn't fake it, hat, sir
Guess I didn't make it
Get ready for me love, 'cause I'm a "comer"
I simply gotta march, my heart's a drummer
Nobody, no nobody, is gonna rain on my parade!
If that's not a feminist song, I don't know what is.
Despite some of the clear offense proffered by the studios and directors, a great actor can make a role subversive and clearly play against the bigotry to reveal the power of the very person who is supposed to have none.
That is one of the take home messages of Funny Girl.
A musical, like Funny Girl, though featuring a sexist cad like Mr. Arnstein is really not about him. It's about a woman who survives despite him, and has the strength to leave.
Any actor worth her salt who plays Fanny Brice will use the power of her portrayal to expose the very sexism inherent in the story. That's what Barbra Streisand did.
She took a role that spoke to the repression of women and made the movie and the story much more than the sum of its parts.
Times change, but beautiful music and wonderful singing will live forever!!
You could add Grease to the list. Sandy changed to win the guy. And don’t get me started on the lyrics in Summer Lovin. 🤢
Yes it is quite the heartwarming lesson for girls. In order to become popular and get your man, you need to drop the wholesome act and dress like a slut.
Flawed people making bad decisions is the essence of good drama. The point of this video is stupid beyond belief.
I love the music man for its songs, but even as a kid the first time I saw it, I wondered why Marian fell for him. She had straight up proof he was a con artist. She even had a witness who flat out told her that Hill always bails after he makes his sales and yet she defended him because he was nice to her brother.
Talk to your local MAGA voter. Maybe they can explain how you fall for a con artist and forgive them.
@@ldonnay
PC/Woke much?
Fantasy -- Check out
Bernie Sanders Oy!
A lot of it had to do with the fact the he was able to break through to her younger brother when nobody else could. She saw him through different eyes then.
@@ldonnay Please MAGA is not a cult. The con man is Biden.
The only question to ask about a musical. Do you come out of the theatre or cinema singing to yourself?
I'm surprised Seven Brides for Seven Brothers wasn't mentioned.
What an embarrassing and clueless list. Stories about perfect people are boring. Character flaws are supposed to just that - flaws and not recommendations on how to live your life. Next go after Hamilton because there were no Asians in the cast, why don't you?
"Pygmalion" had a completely different ending than "My Fair Lady". Though, to be fair, it was originally changed for the film of the play.
I'm sure future generations will judge today's films & TV shows in a similar way. I can only imagine what future generations will say about all of the unscripted crap that's out there now. You cannot force today's standards on films created many decades ago! Lots of the musicals won awards & were critically praised at the time of their release. If you ever took a History of Film class, you would know that pretty much all of the film archives have outdated depictions because society changes over time. Hollywood isn't the only film industry location that has outdated topics on their films - it happens everywhere. Old films give us a look into the world at an earlier time. We have evolved as a society, but the old films stay the same. Lots of todays content that sometimes forces diversity into places where it wasn't actually at in a historical sense will probably be scrutinized as inaccurate & probably won't age well either. Rewriting history isn't necessarily a good thing. You have to learn from the history in order to improve the lives of every generation.
Old musicals are nostalgic to me as I spent a lot of time growing up in the 1970s & 1980s watching them with my mom. Films are a way to escape reality for a couple hours & be entertained. You will get more out of them by watching classic films without judging them for any current societal norms - they are called classic fims because they were made a long time ago when lives were different. I'm 50+ now & so much has changed in the world just in my lifetime - in many categories. I have watched films from my family's various generations - starting with my grandparents through the generations past mine & they almost all have something in them that's considered taboo now. You cannot judge something historical by current standards & you cannot change history, so learn from it & do better yourself.
Favorite musicians:
The rocky horror picture show
Little shop of horrors
Cannibal: the musical
Phantom of the paradise
Sweeney todd
Repo the genetic opera
Let's do the Time Warp Again
Love the rocky horror picture show
I didn't get that from South pacific at all. I thought that it was more that he had kids he hadn't told her about, in general, not because they were half islander.
I love musicals from all eras, but I'm particularly fond of Golden Age/ Rodgers and Hammerstein so this struck a nerve with me. Here's my take on these.
Music Man:
From the very start Marian knows that Harold Hill is a con artist, and she's not going to put up with any of his BS. Yes, if you choreograph Marian the Librarian badly, it's going to look problematic onstage, but if it's done well, it's an incredibly fun and rousing number.
Marian has the upper hand in the relationship from the very start, since she has proof of Harold Hill's scam. She changes her mind about him when she sees the joy that the idea of a band in bringing to River City. Greg had the chance to get away, but instead chooses to stay with Marian because he has his "foot caught in the door" risking the wrath of all River City.
The "outdated, eye role of an ending" is about the development of the characters: Winthrop, previously unhappy, and insecure comes out of his shell and is proudly playing in the band, the other stubborn Iowans are overjoyed to hear their children playing (not very good) music. Marian has found her white knight.
Marian defends Greg because of the happiness he has brought the town all summer with the anticipation of a band. At its heart, the story is about how the arts can uplift a society, the love story is prominent too, but it's more nuanced than that.
King and I:
The emphasis on the writers of the show being white men seems irrelevant. the musical is based off a novel, which is in turn, based off Anna Leonowens real life. It had already been adapted into a film at that point, Rodgers and Hammerstein writing a musical based off a previously existing work shouldn't put them at fault for it misrepresenting colonialism. Yul Brynner, while not being Thai, was from East Asia, his performance isn't exaggerated or stereotypical, and he was incredibly talented.
South Pacific:
This one confused me the most... what is considered outdated about South Pacific today is the stereotypical depiction of Bloody Mary, which, again, can be solved by the way the actress portrays the character.
The show was extremely progressive at its time, and still is today. The message of the musical is that all people are people, regardless of their race. This was not a popular opinion in 1948. The song "You've Got to be Carefully Taught" is potentially the most progressive, and controversial song in all musical theater. A song about racism not being second nature, and is instead learned, was not something a lot of audiences wanted to hear. When the show toured the south, local government wanted the song cut from the show. Rodgers and Hammerstein however, didn't back down, and made sure that the show wasn't performed to segregated audiences.
Nellie's character growth is part of what makes the musical so brilliant. This idea that racism comes from inside us and is beyond our control is disproved by Nellie. This "little hick" from Arkansas willing to change her problematic viewpoint shows that anyone has the capacity to change. Nellie spending time with Emile's kid shows how committed she is. Previously Nellie was borderline scared of the idea of Emile having Polynesian children, and here she is holding hands with them, and singing in their language, acting as the mother figure they're missing. All of this occurs while Emile is on a dangerous mission, presumably he might not come back. Nellie is doing this of her own free will, with the mindset that she still might not end up with the wonderful guy she's in love with. This is beyond redemption, Emile can rightfully forgive Nellie because he can see all that she did in her willingness to change.
Another thing is Rodgers and Hammerstein were taking a huge risk by producing this show at all. Audiences wanting to see a musical were not expecting to be lectured on social justice during their night at the theater. This whole project could have been a huge flop, but the writers were set on writing a musical with a strong, much needed message.
Oklahoma:
This show was beyond revolutionary to the musical theater world. It set the framework for essentially every modern musical we enjoy today. No previous work showed this much attention to detail in its characters. so attacking the female characters in the show really feels like it comes out of left field. Laurey is very adamant that she doesn't need a man to make her happy, she makes it quite obvious during "Many a New Day" Jud storms onto the farm, crashing Laurey's wedding, and puts both Laurey and Curley's life at stake by setting fire to a field of straw. The musical makes it quite clear who's in the right.
Carousel and My Fair Lady are both much more complicated. @JDraper has done a fabulous video essay on My Fair Lady that's worth checking out. As for the others, all musicals from this time, are just that, from a different time. Yes parts of them need to be tweaked; the wa tan ye bit in Music Man for example, it's an offensive portrayal of Native Americans that doesn't add anything to the storyline whatsoever, so removing it is for the best. Still, these are classic pieces of art, so it's important to try to produce them with as much integrity to the original as possible. It's a delicate line, Bartlett Sher, director of the recent South Pacific, Kind and I, My Fair Lady, and Camelot revivals is very good at this. At the end of the day, these are older stories that would not be written today. This is part of what makes them appealing. These are stories that have survived the test of time, and still manage to remain relevant and entertain their audiences, up to 70+ years later.
Anyone who calls these things problematic, are them themselves a problematic person.
As a transgender woman, I have a love/hate relationship with the song “How Lovely to be Woman” from Bye Bye Birdie. I cringe at the outdated sexist lines but I love gender affirmation lines.
It was a different time and place. The two worst musicals were “GiGi” and “Seven Brides for Seven Brothers”. I loved all of the other musicals you mentioned. They are classics. I do not have a problem with them.
This list is just crap most of these musicals are amazing.
This commentator does not realize most of these are period piece movies and the dynamics between men and women were different back then....
Wow - this was the worst .
1. What do you have against redemption? A character MUST show they are bad before they can learn. Immature thoughts in this all the way around about story arc.
2. Half those shows were written long before our now understood sensibilities. Should they be thrown out because the writers couldn't write for an audience 50+years in the future?
3. "It's just about two men fighting over a woman." What? That's almost every movie and TV show ever.
Poor logic, bad writing, and fake outrage. I love you Ms. Mojo but do better.
Ummm...Seven Brides For Seven Brothers doesn't get a mention...?!
Even as a child watching this movie in the early 70's I thought it was terrible. So a man can kidnap you as a young woman, make you marry him because he wants it, even though you don't, and probably rape you? And if your family can't help you then that's it. That's your life? And nothing happens to the man?
Worst movie ever on the treatment of young women. Worst message ever for young men, encouraging stalking, kidnap and rape of young females.
The story was based upon Roman history and mythology. What is wrong with you people? It was a really fun movie!
Oklahoma-a painful 3 hours with the best sings happening in the first 1/2 hour....and then it goes on...and on...
I don't understand the obsession, both here and elsewhere, with taking the past and criticizing it endlessly. You realize that, by doing so, you keep something in the public consciousness that you CLAIM to want to de-emphasize. Moreso, you take something whose meaning was nuanced and unique to its time and deconstruct it so simplistically that you basically ignore all the other aspects of both the time the movie was new and the other aspects of the film itself. MsMojo is not the arbiter of social acceptability and political correctness. Yeah, this is supposed to be entertainment, but let's not pretend you aren't trying to provoke thought as well, let alone influence and steer public opinion. You can do that in other ways, without listicals detailing why you don't like things, or at least without so many of them throughout each year. Too many of your top lists are things you want us not to think of anymore. So by all means, keep reminding us of all those things, repeatedly. That will help us forget, for sure.
THis was then, you can't change the past. Get over it and enjoy
The first thing wrong with The King and I is the story it was based on was about 75% fiction trying to pass itself of as true. Yes, she was a teacher in the palace - and that's about it.
Today's Ultra-Puritans disapprove of nearly everything and are constantly making up new sins and new ways to be offended. I've had it with them.
My Fair Lady will always be one of my favorite musicals; there's a reason some of these are classics. Despite some parts aging poorly, they have enduring characters and qualities you are ignoring.
4:14 Harold Hill wasn't pursuing Marian for love, he was conning her. The Music Man is ahead of its time seeing how Marian is on the outskirts of respectable society for even appearing to be, uh, the "sadder but wiser girl" with the Town's wealthiest patron. She wasn't... not that it matters if she was.... she probably was.
PLUS, Marian was defending Harold Hill against his own desires, you can tell their roles changed when the two singers switched their character songs, the confident 76 Trombones and the submissive Til There was You.
Who wrote this entry, they need to bone up on... metatext, subtext, metaphor... let's call it paying attention.
Today I learnt the song Kids is from Bye bye Birdie. Only had the Simpsons for reference 😅
I literally see nothing wrong with these classics, people now a days are just weak 😅
I'd be very happy for a Shaw Scholar to correct me (I do have an M.F.A. in Theatre and still very open to learning), but it's my understanding of "My Fair Lady" and more importantly it's source material, Shaw's "Pygmalion", is meant to condemn the English Class System. And how people are stuck in it because of their speech. Remember that 'Professor Henry Higgins' makes the point that 'a lady working in a shop' has to use better English than the women she waits on. In fact, in "My Fair Lady" 'Higgins' has great fun in his ability (through Eliza) to make fools of the upper-class.
You are correct, but I doubt actual theatrical history is very useful here.